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Is the Beast Really Cooked?

Is the Beast Really Cooked?

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dk

TrilobiteMember8212 XPMar-02-2018 10:37 PM

I understand how the Xeno works- we all do. It can still be interesting in at least a sub plot in its development though. We still have not seen the missing link of the marriage the bio and mechanical.

dk points the mic out to the forum!

44 Responses to Is the Beast Really Cooked?

BigDave

DeaconMember10115 XPMar-08-2018 2:40 PM

@daliens

I agree with some of that, and indeed the Star Beast was more than a Bio-Weapon... We could have seen a complex Organism being found by the Engineers and Re-Engineered for the Black Goo and their Technology...  But the route we have been shown is they are just a Product of Davids Experiments and Hybridization with Organisms created from the Black Goo.

It appears from Prometheus the Xenomorph was intended as a Bio-Weapon....  Alien Covenant now appears to more so show us this is the case..   But its open for RS to explore Davids Relationship with it and have it that David is interested in its creation and to Nurture and Evolve it.

Rather than David created it just to KILL humans.

@Gavin

Indeed i got the picture the Xenomorph was just some Hybrid Advanced Parasitical Organism, i would like to think they are not as Basic as Space Ants, but they are far from as Advanced as say a Civilization.

Also i agree, exploring some Malevolent Agenda and Psychology to the Beast could make it more interesting, rather than it being something  that relies on Instincts to Survive.

@Lone

Certainly, i can see some of your reply is touching on what Gavin also said.  "Yes, it’s lifecycle seems horrific to us, but he’s not evil per se, he just goes about his day to day business of procreation"

So i think the whole Psychological Aspect behind what does the Xenomorph think/feel, does it have goals and ambitions...  This is what separates many Organism's on Earth from Humans.

Its a question of is the Parasitical Life Cycle or Implying some kind of Cultured Intersect behinds its actions going to be more HORRIFIC

A Predator as far as a Spider, a Wolf, a Lion or a Shark etc, only sees its Prey for Survival...   It never considers how its Actions could be harmful to its Prey...   Humans can make a choice when hunting...  do i need to kill that Deer, can i live off the Fruit and Veg...   We can have regret/remorse for killing and especially our own kind...   Nearly all other Organisms dont possess this.

Would having the Xenomorph have a similar Psychology to a Human make it more Terrifying?  Or again too Human?  It depends how its handled i suppose.

"The Black Pathogen, as presented in PROMETHEUS, appeared to be a masterstroke, allowing for a Morb origin lesson and a melting pot of endless permutations"

Indeed, and i totally agree with Prometheus as far as how you saw it,  RS had even said its NOT a Alien Movie, it was meant as something to TIE the Space Jockey Race to the Franchise, but a number of Fans will always want association with the Xenomorph and its Origins and expected Prometheus was going to do this.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Batchpool

FacehuggerMember357 XPMar-08-2018 6:22 PM

I don’t think the beast is cooked at all. As a main dish it has always been well garnished with bloody victims, and that’s about it. Well, there are quite a few things that have just not been served up that should be on the menu. Firstly, I would really, really like to see someone get their head ripped off by a facehugger, and that’s just the starter.

I would also like to see some tactical use of facehuggers, such as a form of hostage taking. Surely the advantage with a facehugger is that it renders someone immobile, and if a ransom is not paid within a certain time, pop goes the xeno, along with a ribcage or two.

My biggest gripe is the constant reference to the xeno being a weapon, whilst never really being shown how effective use of xeno deployment works. A weapon by definition requires tactics; otherwise it is just a thing like a shoal of piranha.

If the xeno is indeed a weapon, then is it a weapon devised as a deterrent, and if so against what? Is there an anti-xeno proliferation programme?

And another thing, If you blow into the face of a xeno will it be yours to command, and possibly use as close protection.

Xeno’s are also supposed to be intelligent, which makes me wonder if they could have ever developed their own technology given the right conditions for them. I think there are a lot of avenues that have just not been explored.

dk

TrilobiteMember8212 XPMar-08-2018 6:40 PM

Xenos as weapons are the nuclear option imo. They always seem to get out of control. 

Face huggers as hostage takers- that is a new idea and a pretty interesting one.

SuperAlien

XenomorphMember1299 XPMar-09-2018 2:18 AM

Thanks BigDave

But its open for RS to explore Davids Relationship with it and have it that David is interested in its creation and to Nurture and Evolve it.

It seemed to me that David was very interested in studying the xenomorph, tried to imprint on it even. He said in Advent that these creatures would rule the galaxies, so he did regard them as more than weapons, but rulers.

I wonder when did he send the messages to WY we see in Advent. He could have done it much later, after he arrived on Origae 6 and was prepared for a confrontation with WY. He used Walter's code for the reports in the meantime,  as we saw at the end of Covenant. 

We should see as well how the xenomorph from Covenant gets the shape of the Big Chap from Alien. That's among the few things still not cooked about the beast.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

Timba Prime

OvomorphMember12 XPMar-10-2018 9:45 AM

@Batchpool +1

I thought that i was the only one who thought this way.

I would really to see how xenomorph evolved after decades or even centuries of life. Would a decades old xenomorph drone become sentient ? Would it become way more than just a killing machine ? 

The queen in Aliens seems to be smart enough to understand the deal Ripley wanted to make with her, in order to escape. And it was a relatively young queen leading a small and young hive.

I would be curious to see how smart/sentient can decades/centuries old xenomorph be. Will they be able to build strategies advanced enough to beat an human army ? Will they become resilient to the marines weapons or find out efficient counter measures against them ?

I would really annoyed and disapointed to see another alien xenomorph showing the same cycle. Ridley wasted an opportunity with Alien Covenant imho. Instead of wanting to piss off fans, he could have shown a radically different type of Xenomorph and/or xenomorph cycle !

Imagine a very ancient sentient Xenomorph, trapped by the engineers, which escape from captivity thanks to David attack of the Planet 4  and which will make a deal with David in order to build a weapon based on its dna to destroy engineers.

 

Thoughts_Dreams

NeomorphMember1528 XPMar-11-2018 3:39 AM

DK: Maybe a bit off-topic but anyways. I enjoyed the Weyland TED-talk because it showed us what he was about. Unfortunately they did not include that in Prometheus. They could at least have had a shorter version of it because it sort of explains him.

Lone: Maybe it is about finding the right story? I am not sure if they shall show it too much though since there are other monsters that they could have also.

Characters is number one that gets into a situation of terror. I would like it to be a variation of a morph but maybe one that has just got some features of it (take the Squid as an example) since it would be repetitive to see the Xeno over and over again.

The black goo is interesting but I hope that we never get an explanation of where it came from. It is perhaps even more interesting than the monster it self, at least that is how I look at it. Some things should be left to the imagination.

I hope that we will get to know some more about the Engineers but the got to be done in a way that is interesting.

Alien Covenant could have been good but it just turned into a movie a bout a mad android that wants to create things and hate mankind.

Now they have added a certain amount of explanations to it but they could add some tings about it that we ever will know the answer too. In this case it could be kept un-cooked so to speak.

BigDave

DeaconMember10115 XPMar-11-2018 8:55 AM

" Surely the advantage with a facehugger is that it renders someone immobile, and if a ransom is not paid within a certain time"

Thats certainly something very Original.....  so we could see some kind of Criminal Gang or Terrorist Group get its hands on the Organism.  using it as a Hostage for Ransom as you implied is a good idea.... it would be a Foolish Folly for the Criminals/Terrorist though, because you can almost see this back fire on them and then have to deal with the Threat they have unleashed.

I certainly think and its as i have said that you have to think of some new ways to deal with the Xenomorph and i feel even then we have to careful how much we do this.

The beast is cooked for me as far as the following.

*It no longer has that Scare Factor it had before, and especially after Alien Resurrection and the AVP movies it became Diluted, i feel Alien Covenant could have resurrected the Fear of the Original but it did not do the beast any justice. 

*It no longer has that Mystery/Enigma about it, this is a consequence of exploring its Origins, and Sadly when we look at the Engineers, the Black Goo and then David using this to create the Xenomorph, they all dont have that same Awe Inspiring Effect like when we first saw the Derelict and had many Questions in our minds to what this was all about.

We have seen a EVOLUTION of the idea behind the Xenomorph.

*Star Beast we are shown it simply is the remains of its Once Civilized to a degree Species, a highly evolved Species but a Deadly One, and with no Adults to Nurture it, then we are left with a Wild Beast.

*Alien left us the Enigma of the Derelict having these Eggs in some kind of Cargo Hold, and the Dead Space Jockey and it left us wondering what the connection was...  Creators? or merely someone who discovered the Xenomorphs?

After Alien (and more so after Aliens) Ridley Scott had confirmed to us that the Derelict was some kind of War-ship the Cargo a Biological Weapon.

*Aliens introduced the kind of Insect/Hive aspect which could make us think this was a Organism the Space Jockey used purely because of its destructive nature, or was they Engineered like this by them.

*Prometheus introduced us to the Black Goo/Sacrificial Goo which on one hand was shown to be used to Create/Evolve Life, and on the other was shown it can be used to Mutate/Evolve Life but by doing so it in effect KILLS the Original Life. The movie also implies this substance is used as a Cleansing Tool a Bio-Weapon to a degree and it is connected to the Xenomorph DNA in some way.

*Alien Covenant seems to imply that this substance not only destroys but creates hybrid forms of the Xeno-Virus and by experimentation and cross-hybridization David ultimately creates the early form of Xenomorph.

We cant be 100% sure where Ridley Scott was going next, but it appears he would be sticking with David creating the Xenomorphs, and that the Beast would go through some upgrades before it becomes what it was in ALIEN and i think RS was going to portray it as some AI Creation that is Engineered by David.

So it looks like the Xenomorph to David is no more of a cross between what David was to Weyland and some Hybrid Organism created from the results of the Black Goo Pathogenic Mutagen.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Lone

PraetorianMember2674 XPMar-17-2018 11:23 AM

The original Alien was really frightening because we knew virtually nothing about it. Remember the look on Brett's face when he encountered it?

As audience members we had that exact same experience. No idea what in the hell it was, no time to process exactly what we were looking at, yet instantly realising that it was super deadly!

No other portrayal of the Alien has been able to recreate that.

That's why Ridley wanted to move things in another direction. The Engineers, The Black Pathogen, The Baby Deacon, (shoot me, I liked it!) The Hammerpede, even the incredibly large, cuddly, vagina monster- Cuddles, what an awesome trip that was! All successful, Proto-Morb family members it seemed to me. Plus, Prometheus opened the door to other permutations of deadly Morb offspring.

There were so many possibilities, so many routes for this story to follow. Prometheus was the right way to go. It's never too late.... 

Ps I still long to see some creepy, horrifying, egg-morphing!!

 

 

THE LONE GUNWOMAN

"Let The Cosmic Incubation Begin" ~ H.R. Giger

dk

TrilobiteMember8212 XPMar-17-2018 7:30 PM

A slow egg morph would be interesting to see- start to finish- while seeing the victims lose their humanity. The black goo in Prometheus sort of did that in its own way. However, this would seem to be an admission by RS that the scene in Alien should not have been cut.

Thoughts_Dreams

NeomorphMember1528 XPMar-19-2018 10:57 AM

Big Dave: I agree that the Xeno is not as threatening as before but I believe that the black goo sort of could take that place if they do not explain it too much. Hopefully they will not make the same mistake with the black goo that they did with the Xeno. Unfortunately Scott was a reason why it was made worse since they made it so it was a creation by David.

Maybe the Engineers and the black goo could take that place that the Xeno had. They both need to be made a mystery at least parts of them. It would be bad if they explain all about the goo and the Engineers.

I believe that Scott has made it worse by making it a creation of David but it could be saved so it will be a re-creation. Hopefully it could be a re-creation of other beasts that the Engineers have done before, that would be nice.

BigDave

DeaconMember10115 XPMar-19-2018 1:20 PM

I posted this on the other thread but it fits here too.

I see TWO ideal options..

1) Show that David has just Re-Created his own Xenomorph... but then we need to have him EVOLVE this Xenomorph to give us something of bit more of a threat, something different.  Maybe Introduce the aspects that Ridley Scott had intended in ALIEN which is to make this BEAST Far more Intelligent than what we got to see in ALIEN and on-ward's...   The Classic Xenomorph could be seen as a Perfect Killing Machine.   But then show that Davids version actually gets evolved to be more than a Killing Machine, and thus showing that Davids Creation is actually much more than the Hierarchy of Creation above his was...  So even if we start with the Engineers at the Top, these Mortals Created Mankind and the Xenomorph,  then Mortal Mankind Creates the Synthetics like David and then its David who actually creates something much greater than the Engineers.

This leaves the Classic Xenomorph as Ancient, but then we have to ask WHY would Weyland Persue the Classic rather than Davids? For this we have to show the Company take a Great Interest  in Davids Creation but in the END, we have to CLOSE THE DOOR on Davids Creation and LV-223 so that the company then discovers their is a source of a more Ancient Version thats Primitive that the Company could RE-ENGINEER to try and Replicate what David did, and REVEAL this as Special Order 937

2) Introduce the Engineers or those above them into the MIX and have them Pursue/EVOLVE Davids Creation to become the Classic Xenomorph.   A Big Question we should be asking is WHY does the Black Goo Evolve LIFE into something related to the Xenomorph, and WHY were those Murals and Frescos for?

some element within the Engineer Society and Hierarchy had been conducting experiments to Create/Evolve something that certainly is connected to the XENOMORPH and Held this in VERY high Regard. 

We need to show WHO/WHY had just a High Regard for the Mural, and then show us that these guys see Davids Xenomorph as a more Perfect Creation than what they was attempting... but then they see Davids Creation still needs some work.

Then its introducing a set of events from this that leads to the Classic Xenomorph and Derelict.

I CANT GUESS what route RS and those working with him have in mind... i just hope its something with Good imagination, that makes Davids Work on the Xenomorph... lesser than the route taken, but also does not dis-credit his work or the THEMES of Prometheus.

And i would CHALLENGE them to provide a more interesting route than the TWO i have outlined above ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10115 XPMar-19-2018 1:21 PM

Regarding the Black Goo, there are so many Horrors this can create, its Origin is a Mystery and they need to either keep a bit of Mystery about it... or reveal its Origin as something VERY Sinister or VERY Alien.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

NeomorphMember1528 XPMar-19-2018 1:58 PM

Big Dave:

I would like them to show that David made his own version because it would suck if they leave him as the creator of the original monster. Yeah artificial intelligence can be intelligent and the Xenos are smart so they must have gotten that from somewhere so maybe they could have been given that from David?

Having those above the Engineers in the next movie could be interesting. Maybe they could create the original. As long as David is not the creator of it, it will be alright. Perhaps the connection of the goo and the Xenos could be explained. I hope that the mural in Prometheus will make more sense when we see the next movie because right now it probably does not make a lot of sense to people unless many have a sense for details like that.

"i just hope its something with Good imagination, that makes Davids Work on the Xenomorph... lesser than the route taken, but also does not dis-credit his work or the THEMES of Prometheus."

Yes please, keep Scott away from the script. I would like the next movie to make things in Prometheus making more sense so it would be like "Aha! So That is why they did that!". This is not to say that they should overtly explain things in Prometheus but so we get some answers.

I would prefer if they did not show us the origin of the goo at all.

BigDave

DeaconMember10115 XPMar-19-2018 3:25 PM

Indeed both those options will mean that DAVID is not the Direct Creator of those Eggs on the Derelict.

Option 1: We will discover David Evolves/Creates his own version of the Xenomorph.  Thus the Engineers may have created the Original Xenomorph or at least it was a event that happened thousands of years ago with NO input from David.

Option 2: We will discover the Engineers (or their creators) take Davids Xenomorph and Evolve it to become those Eggs on the Derelict.  Thus David just plays the Middle Man, the Engineers or their Creators provided the Starting and End point of the Xenomorphs total Origins.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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