Our thoughts on Advent ?10,643 Views68 RepliesAdd A Reply
I want to start by saying "Advent" was very enjoyable. Not only did it give us some of the answers we were looking for, it also hinted at certain things that we can debate for a while.
David: There was so much potential on this world. Wasted by "Gods" who feared their own might. They convinced themselves that sacrifice would cleanse them of their sins. But in the end, they were like me.....
Beings that understood you must give life to both the Wolf and the Lamb.
But then they tried to banish the Wolves and undo their creation, so i took their secrets for myself.
Interesting that David uses the word "God" and saying that they feared their own might. Perhaps this points to an event which changed The Engineers outlook on things regarding the Pathogen. Reluctant to use its power.
We finally hear that they thought sacrifice would cleanse their sins. I was wondering what the reason for the evidence of sacrifice was.
Just after David says: "They were like me....." another signal issue causes distortion before he says "Creators" I wonder if that piece of audio has been stuck on or if any of the voice over is jumbled around. I havent got that far yet.
My favourite nugget is the part 9XZ when David acknowledges "an ancient ceremony involves sacrifice, such cruelty"
And we see a Morph type creature what looks like it is accepting a human/humanoid/Engineer sacrifice.
There is just so much to debate. I would like to break it down to its last molecule.
Take This.... This is the blood of our lord
"The Engineers, if they are still alive somewhere, might come to investigate what happened on Paradise and, on seeing what David did and the crashed Juggernaut, they would go back to LV223 to destroy the planet together with the last remaining pathogen and Juggernauts stationed there. Or could be they did it already and the solar flare incident was the result of that action?"
This Certainly is a Good Response.... a lot depends on the Returning Engineers Knowledge of LV-223, the Pathogen and the intentions on LV-223 Leading up to the Outbreak. The ADVENT does imply the Engineers tried to Banish the Wolf... Thus Turning their Back on Mankind on Earth and LV-223...
They may assume a Abandoned Human Race would NEVER be able to Travel in Space let alone arrive at LV-223. HOWEVER... this would all Change NO soon as they start to investigate Planet 4
If they determine the Human corpses (which they discover a Synthetic Human Likeness) they could maybe determine these Humans came from Earth... unless Earth is the only place where Humans are... and also they would determine a Human Likeness in the Juggernaughts Recordings and Determine it came from LV-223.
So you would ASSUME any returning Engineers would WANT to make sure that any THREAT from Mankind and LV-223 are BOTH taken Care of....
I cant say much about the Solar Flare being caused by LV-223 being Destroyed.. if this was the case i feel the destruction would have meant LV-223 is not far from Planet 4 and the Engineers would arrive in NO-TIME and Intercept David and the Covenant with Ease.
I do think by the time of ALIEN or at latest prior to ALIENS then Origae-6, Planet 4 and LV-223 must all be ELIMINATED as any Source for Engineers Technology, Bio-Weapons and the Xenomorph leaving only the DERELICT as the ONLY Source. (Latter Ripley)
I would also add that the ADVENT mentions the Prometheus Mission and so Logically the Company would send a Mission to Explore this Place after they receive the ADVENT but sometimes Logic does not apply to the Franchise.
"at some point the maker must have the option to take over its control."
Indeed you would think so, and a way that the Synthetic Can-not disable it.. (Protection/Shut Off Switch) We need to remember that DAVID was Weylands Personnel Synthetic and like a SON to him and so he may have lacked many Safe-Guards maybe at the Hubris of Weyland who may have OVERLOOKED any Potential Uprising/Out of Control David.
Maybe Weyland had a Agenda for David... to Create a synthetic in the Conquest to Beat Immortality... as if Weyland could Transfer his Soul (Memories and Experiences and Emotions) to a AI and upload this to a Perfected Synthetic... then WEYLAND would become IMMORTAL this is what i was exploring with my Prometheus 2 draft from about 4-5 years ago now that i abandoned... OPERATION ROOK it was called.
The DEACON was a Plot Device to show a connection between LV-223, the Black Goo and Engineers and Xenomorph. The Deacon Mural may have been a Precursor to the Xenomorph. The PLOT has changed now so that the Xenomorph is NO-LONGER Thousands of years old.
It would have been interesting to see Dr Shaws Deacon what kind of a Procreation would this Organism have? As for Size... well it was about 4-5ft Tall and i would assume a Mammal/Xeno Hybrid and so if we go by the Growth Rates of Mammals, then a Fully Adult Deacon would have been about 14-16ft, Some People Felt the Deacon did not look very HORRIFIC.... But then a New Born/Few Days Old BEAR, LION, TIGER, WOLF all look Cute and Not Threatening... compared to ADULT. So the Potential to Change the Deacon a bit with Maturity and it being 15ft+ could have made for a very Terrifying Encounter.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Thank you for Bumping this Thread as it is one i was away from here when it took place ;)
Indeed it looks like David is Referring to his WOLF as the Xenomorph, the Engineers Wolf is more Ambiguous... I like what you are saying about the LV-223 Engineers being different... this is something i have pondered before.. or at least that a Faction had Engineered themselves at a Great Hubris.
I had a So Called Source Leak from the Early October 2014 Draft of what was Prometheus 2, who gave some insight into Paglen/Greens Story... They did suggest the Engineers (i assume LV-223) had more in Common with David than Mankind. While also saying the Engineers are Genetically Connected to us... and that Mankind is the 4th/5th Generation of our Kind/Humanoid Species. And Biblical Events in context had happened but NOT to our Generation and not Literally on Earth.
A INTERESTING comment by Ridley Scott is he refers to the Planet 4 Engineers as the ORIGINAL Engineers. He referred to the Engineers as Gardeners of Space and still does... but he made Fallen Angel comments regarding their Race... we have to ask is this in regards to the LV-223 Engineers?
Regarding the Xenomorph... the Same Source claimed a few things, which was that DAVID Re-Creates it, Dr Shaw plays a Small but Vital Role in what Davids Agenda is... she is incapacitated for the most part, and without SIN (Satans Daughter) there would be NO Xenomorph, they also claimed Mankind plays the Larger Role in the Xenomorph Origin and NOT Engineers. Finally they said Concept work showed a Human Female Connected to a Bio-Mechanical Device. And there was like Pods containing Humanoid Fetus/Babies being Grown.
The Sabotage Element is a GOOD point... its something i was drawn to as well, i actually wondered if the LAST Engineer had Sabotaged the Mission? Funny enough the Schematics for the Cryo-Pod Room had the Last Engineers Cryo-Pod Labeled as HERO CHAMBER which could fit with a Saboteur/Savior Figure.
The idea of the Engineers being Engineered Beings and maybe a SLAVE race for the Engineers fits within the whole Philosophy of Prometheus. The Source i had did claim the Engineers were not the GODS but are a layer of Creation with another Race above them.
This fits with Ridley Scott when he claimed they DID-NOT want to meet GOD in the first movie.. in regards to the Removal of the Full Sacrificial Scene (Elders), he also said David and Shaw would be off to the Engineers Homeworld where they would meet these beings who are NOT Gods in the Traditional Sense.
Combined with the Look of the Planet 4 Engineers, the Advent, and how RS claimed those Engineers are the Originals... and when he was talking about AI... he said David is AI, and Roy Batty is AI and so INDEED the Engineers on LV-223/Prometheus could be to those on Planet 4 as Replicants are to Humans.
Lastly... the Source claimed that in context to Paradise Lost, that the Punishment Sent down on the Fallen Angels (Turning them to Serpents) actually releases them from Bondage/Slavery. I think they was hinting that a PUNISHMENT was sent to the LV-223 Engineers but instead of Destroying them... it Released them from Bondage/Provided them with something to use to their Advantage.
REGARDING the Different Temple Complexes on LV-223, yes maybe each one has a different Version of the Black Goo. This fits with Jon Spaights concepts.. which appeared to show us the Engineers encountered a Organism... and using their Creation Tool (Nano Scarabs/Goo) they attempted to Harness and Re-Engineer Many Versions as much as 7-8 different kinds of Xenomorph like Bio-Weapons.
So yes maybe each Complex had a different Version.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
David may well be using the term 'Gods' loosely when referring to the engineers and may only still be using the term due to spending time with Shaw who is responsible for showing us that the engineers created us, a feat that 'God' did. so theyr Gods because they created man but to David they are not Gods and are unworthy of the power they wield as they are false Gods in his eyes. 'mortal after all'. this statement could very well have been the moment David believed himself superior to the engineers and realised them to be false gods as he cannot die yet these 'Gods' will. this now makes them unworthy to have the power they hold. he may not see himself as a god but may believe he is more worthy to wield this power. plus he hates humanity and all this power has fallen into his lap so why not use it because daddy didn't love him.
You have raised a very interesting and fundamental point about one of the many pieces of investment made in Prometheus which were not capitalised on in the sequel.
The strategic decision made by Ridley to hire John Logan to write David as a straight line into the sequel and remove everything else is well understood.
More subtly are all the sub text of the Prometheus story and in particular what all those strands meant.
David was potentially the perfect mediator of the story as he played off both Weyland and Shaw's agendas to discover the dawning truth of the Engineers and their relationship with mankind. Central to this :-
1) They created us...... and pointed out the general area where they came from and very importantly NOT Paradise. This has huge implications for the story if you wish to pursue it.
2) They having created us, began experimenting and the implication of the title of the movie is they stole whatever they were utilising to experiment. This has huge implications for the story if you wish to pursue it.
3) Two matters then transpired
i) They decided to redact us. In what context and why ?
ii) Their experiments were their undoing and led to the aborted mission which also lead to the failed flight of one of the Juggernauts which was carrying not Urns but Egg Sacs with an organism which was related to their experiments.
Whilst 3 is a consequence of 1 and 2 and the answers to those questions flow from 1 and 2 they both gave the story an interesting conundrum to resolve (and link to the original movie) and the purpose of Elizabeths Shaw's flight to Paradise.
All of this was the perfect set up for a fascinating sequel and all of it has been set aside. However if you are minded, as I am, to find your own answers and challenge yourself its very rich pickings.
Certainly is something that was very open to explore... while some contradiction comes along with every NEW piece of information given (The Advent) what we see in Alien Covenant and more so Ridley Scotts comments and maybe the Advent could allow us to explore what could be really going on.
Maybe we should still continue to look at a number of elements from the Prequels that have been mentioned and that we know about now.
*How Connected is the PROMETHEUS Title, the Prometheus Mythos as a Broad Stroke does tell the tale of a Hierarchy of Gods/Beings who have Betrayed/Gone Against the Establishment... Prometheus First had Gone against his own Brothers and Sided with their Children (Olympians) and then he had gone against those Olympians in Favor of Mankind. Some elements seem to point to Prometheus as the Creator of Mankind.. The Large Theme connecting to the Movie seems to center around this Creation Link, and also Providing Information/Knowledge that is Taught to THOSE not intended for it, and for using a Forbidden Knowledge/Fire/Tool against the WILL or Intended ways which leads to either Punishment Directly or as a result of Hubris of playing with FIRE.
*What we have been implied towards from RS comments and Alien Covenant is that our Engineers on LV-223 Do-Not come from that place but a place we would regard as PARADISE and it will be interesting to see how Literal and in what Context does Paradise link... A Place where only the Honorable or Worthy are allowed to Go/Dwell or the Cradle of Creation? maybe both can apply.
*It is further revealed that those Engineers on Planet 4 (Paradise) are the Originals which opens up the whole Debate about those in Prometheus being either a Sub-Creation for a Purpose just as Mankind Created Synthetics, or Replicants. Which either Rebel, or they become Fallen because they Sub-Create Mankind or Pass on Forbidden Knowledge or indeed Mankind could have been created as a Replacement this similar to the Annunaki/Iggi and Mankind Sumerian Mythos. OR... those Prometheus Engineers had Genetically Evolved themselves using the Fire/Creation Tool/Knowledge which is a ACT that was not supposed to be allowed and suffer a Hubris in doing so.
So there is still a lot to be Explored/Answered that is more important than just Chasing the Space Jockey Event i think a BIG THEME that can still be explored is the Agenda/History of the Engineers where the Gardeners of Space Plot and how it relates to Planet 4/LV-223 and Earth as well as potentially Many Worlds is something interesting.. Rather than going the route of a ALIEN Race who Create a Bio-Weapon to use to Eradicate their Failed Creation/Experiment.
The Reasons WHY these beings Sacrifice themselves, the Reasons WHY they are not contempt at remaining on Planet 4 as those Engineers in Alien Covenant appeared to be, WHY they are the Originals, and WHY the Engineers are Called Fallen Angels (which Caste of Engineers). Are all things that could have been explored where the LV-223 Purpose could be explored beyond being JUST a Weapons Facility. And where we could loosely get clues to WHAT caused these beings on LV-223 to Conduct those Experiments.
These are all things a Prometheus 2, 3 and even more could have explored... that NOW with the Direct U-Turn to Directly lead us to ALIEN would make it harder to explore due to the Spoon Fed Literal Passage to ALIEN and how this leaves little Time/Scope to Squeeze in what could have been Explored in Prometheus 2/3
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"ii) Their experiments were their undoing and led to the aborted mission which also lead to the failed flight of one of the Juggernauts which was carrying not Urns but Egg Sacs with an organism which was related to their experiments."
Indeed it appeared to set up a Different Angle than we are getting NOW... Prometheus did provide clues to suggest a LINK between the Experiments/Bio-Weapons on LV-223 and the Derelict and its Cargo.
Ridley Scott even Explained the Entire Event... and the KEY thing he added was that something EVOLVED in the Cargo Hold, which leaves us asking if the Cargo Hold was being filled with Eggs or Not.
I think looking at Prometheus/Alien Covenant it seems rather ODD for the Juggernauts to be Bio-Weapon Bombers intended to Unleash Eggs on a World... I say this IF we maybe ASSUME the Juggernaught/Derelict are Similar and have Similar Deployment Mechanisms. Because if we look at the Bombardment Scene in Alien Covenant then we have to ASK how do any Dropped Eggs Survive just a Drop? And IF the Bombardment was intended as a Method of Destruction then the Black Goo makes much more sense than Creating Eggs to be Deployed.
So a Question still remains for HOW would those Eggs be Deployed? And so maybe instead what we have is the Juggernaught/Derelict is NOW just Transporting the Eggs to LV-223 for Experiments.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
More talking from a mad android. It could have been alright if the movie would have been better. When they even have extra material about an android even though he got most of the screen-time in Alien Covenant that is just ridiculous. There are more characters in the movie than David so develop them and let us know something about them. Unfortunately the movie became about two androids. Advent is just more about David and since he got over-exposed in the movie it makes this one boring.
Chli: Yeah but that is not very difficult to get a better movie than Alien Covenant. To me it is at the same level as Alien Resurrection unfortunately.