My question list regarding the prequels.2,107 Views22 RepliesAdd A Reply
First my stance is that I love Prometheus but hate Covenant will all my heart. Many of them are not important to the story but they bug me. But let's begin:
1. Was dr Shaw an archaeologist, was she mentioned as such? Because she knew how to operate the instruments in the science lab and knew about the very rare medical pod was not she a medical doctor of kinds. If so repairing David's body was not uphold Hippocrates' Oath and as such accepting as more than a tool?
2. In 2012, I saw Prometheus as being marketed as a movie in the same universe as Alien, but was under a wrong impression. When did it become a prequel trilogy? Or was it all along?
3. How old was David by the time of Covenant? 50-60(judging on the age of Wayland)? Walter was no more than let's say 10 (probably built after the Prometheus mission launch). So why in the cosmic do they look alike? And the bugs in the programming where found after more than 40 years, or Wayland and Vickers would have gone with a fault synth to Lv-whatever? And if the issues were found wouldn't the exterior of the synth be the first to be changed to reassure the clients?
4. In the faux disclaimer of Meet Walter there is a part about losing the rights to your DNA if you fail to pay for you synth if I saw it correctly. Is there DNA used in Synth? Who's was used for David?
5.In the First scene of Covenant, how in the Hell did David draw the conclusion that he is immortal, or for that matter how did he know what death is? How many generations of synths were there before him? Were they still alive?
For me 3 and 5 smell terribly as retcon. David was made the sole protagonist only in covenant, as evidenced in 2012 RS interviews, where he talked about the horrific things she (Shaw would find on Paradise, well she never reach there alive).
6. How in the hell did know about the John Denver song? In Prometheus, when Janek plays that stupid musical instrument (owned once if I call correctly by Greg Lake of Emerson, Lake, and Palmer) in front Vickers and tells about the owner is has not the any clue about who that was. Is it Covenant scene only there for artistic reasons?
7. How can people like David in spite of his overt nazism?
Sorry for the wasted time, but maybe you can shed a light on some of them.
1) Indeed she was a archaeologist but it appears she may have some medical knowledge as far as keeping up to date with Technological Advances... i would say this is part of her Character and reasons she and Holloway made those discoveries so as to try and see if their was a connection to Mankind Technological Evolution and interaction by beings we saw as Gods.
2)It was loosely a Prequel, it opened up a New World to explore (Engineers/Space Jockey) and provided a few connections to the events on LV-426 but loosely. And so it left the movie open to be explored in a number of ways, they could have gone off further from Alien (which they planed to) or make the next movie more connected. They did Prometheus in a way that it could be taken as a Stand Alone movie as a sequel was not 100% set in stone at the time of Production.
But after Prometheus they did intend to do 2 more sequels, and so Prometheus was to be the Start of a New Prequel Trilogy. But this Changed.
It should now be looked at a Prologue to a Alien Prequel Trilogy/Dualology where Prometheus is a Prologue that kind of has a Fork in the Road... that leads to TWO Alternative routes to explore... The One being a direct route to Alien which the Movies are now showing and the other would be to explore the Engineers which was what was originally going to be done... but it appears we will not see this as much now.
3) Thats a great point "And if the issues were found wouldn't the exterior of the synth be the first to be changed to reassure the clients?" I would say that would be a ideal move.
As far as David 8 goes he would be only 32-33 years Old, however he would have the Knowledge, Experiences and Memories passed on from Proto-type to Proto-type and so in effect the Memories/Soul of David for Weylands Personel Model has been passed on for Generations of David and so his Body would be 32-33 years Old but his AI has Memory/Emotions passed on over 79 years. Weyland was aware of flaws in each Model and so when they upgraded each Model he Tested these new Models with the AI of his own Personal David.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
4) It appears the Walter Models are very different in construction to David models, it even appears the Walter Models have components that look more Biological, The Walter Campaign did show us that Walter Models imprint themselves to their owners, so they are able to be more compatible with their owners Personality and Character Traits.
As far as the losing DNA Rights, this is never explained and its pretty much something totally open to debate. And one element i have not given much deep thought about.
5) You raise some very interesting points, that indeed pick upon many flaws we see with this Prologue as far as contradictions. Weyland had began working on AI before David 1 was created in 2025, as far back as prior to 2023 they had been playing around with AI and at the 2023 TED Talk Peter Weyland said that in a few years they could create a Synthetic Life form indistinguishable from Mankind.
We can only assume Weyland had Sandboxed the AI for his David Project, so they test it first prior to allowing it to be uploaded into a Fully working, moving Android.
This is because the Prologue was to be the first time David was switched on, yet we clearly see that David has knowledge out of the BOX and so he would have had a set of Programs and Library of Knowledge uploaded to his AI before it was Activated.
This Scene also shows David choosing the Name for himself, yet he knows of certain things like the Statue of Davids Name and the Enter the Gods of Valhalla Musical... so a certain amount of knowledge would have been acquired and placed within the AI before it was transferred to a Artificial Synthetic Body and then Activated.
As far as Dr Shaw indeed they was to explore this but FOX/RS had a change of Plan because they felt people would not be Uninterested in Shaws Objective, and that the Franchise needed to by-pass this and link more to Alien.
And again FOX simply seem to be making it up and changing things as they go... It appears and clues was there on Sets which we never got to see well in AC, that Dr Shaw did indeed make it and was alive for sometime on Paradise, but the New Advent video would seem to hint that Dr Shaw did not spend as much time on Paradise before David had killed her off.
6) The Song was just a Plot Device to drive a reason for the Covenant Crew to Explore and go to Planet 4, much the same as the Neutrino Burst as the same. They decided that sending a signal or that receiving a signal that shows Dr Shaw humming to the John Denver "take me home" song, would be something that could be used so that despite the Static etc... Tennessee would notice the Tune, thus it could only had been made by someone from Earth.
The alternatives would have been what? Dr Shaw making a SOS in Person... so it would depend on what she would say... " Anybody out there, "my name is Dr Shaw and i am stranded on this planet" surely if this was the case, it depend on when she made a signal and then this would then affect what she puts, if a signal was made to be rescued after she had realized David had gone Crazy etc.. she would surely put this in her SOS...
So the Denver Song was just a way to allow other Humans to make a connection, without giving any real SOS message. So at some point Dr Shaw was humming that Song and the Juggernaught Recorded it, and David chose to select part of this recording and send it out into Space... hoping that it would reach a Human Ship and they would come to investigate.
7) I think this is down to each persons individual interpretation i do not see him as being overt nazism at all.
Also its no waste of time, its all part of the point of this site... to allow New/Old users to discus all things related to the Franchise.
Welcome aboard ;)
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Thx BigDave for the consideration. I truly believe that with the care of someone like you a truly great Sci-fi could have been made, something beyond cliche horror tropes. As it is, with killing Shaw, for me the franchise is over as I am not interested in the nazi robot (Wagner being Hitler's favorite, Creating the perfect life form-the Ubermorphy-thingy, blond blue eyes) squaring off with the Evil Corporation at in the end being killed by his own creation?
Also can you point me exactly where it is said that Shaw was an archaeologist, sorry if don't believe you here. Isn't the Dr title in the US used for physicians, and usually the phd or md for some with a doctorate?
Shaw from Prometheus was willing to sacrifice her life to save humanity, so she definitely would have not transmuted any distress signal to endanger others. So the John Denver song is pure laziness.
From where do you know about this successions, versions of Davids? What do you know about the strength of a synth and their weight ? Why do they need to know hand to hand combat?
If Walter models must be imprinted with DNA, whose DNA was used for the Covenant mission? Furthermore, if Walter models are so different from the Davids, how can the ******* access Mother security details? Or while he was not experimenting on Shaw did he worked on predicting the evolution of security of future synth technology?
@ RedGuy - Prometheus was on last night & I watched it again, as it is awesome & so full of potential!!
Cerulean Blue That one I ordered from Amazon in 4k , not Covenant, that one i'll skip it...
Dr Shaw and Holloways entire works were devoted to uncovering many Archeological Digs, looking at connections between Ancient Cultures and how they could connect to Gods, the very opening of Prometheus they was working on a Archeological Dig. The Drafts also referred their works to Archeologist. I am sure the term Dr does not have to apply to just Medical Professions
The Weyland Viral Site for Prometheus provided a lot of the information on David.
The whole John Denver signal was maybe not the best way to cover it, but again it was done so as that appeared David could use a recording made when Dr Shaw at some point was humming that song... and so David would use a piece of this Transmission to Bait/Lure any Humans in. It was a way to get their attention.... They could have indeed had David make a Signal but with records of how unreliable some Davids had been maybe the Crew would have ignored or taken more caution with a direct signal from David.
Also if they went the route of Dr Shaw leaving a Signal it would depend at what point Dr Shaw would have done so, as this would impact what kind of Signal she would give.. The only time she would need to make any signal would be to request a rescue.... but then it would be likely due to the Events that any Signal she gave would be a Warning and not a SOS.
So i guess the Denver Song just fitted without having to look at alternative ways.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
David is 80 years old. Ridley Scott says it here in this interview.Empire Magazine Podcast-Alien Covenant Special Featuring Ridley Scott
David is the prototype model, the first one. That's what Walter says in the deleted scenes on the Blu-Ray.
Shaw reached the planet alive, she was killed later on.
The bugs in David were there because he went 10 years without maintenance, again this is mentioned in the deleted scenes with Walter in the Blu-Ray.
All these things BigDave has answered with far more eloquence that I. x
What is in David 80 years old? That must have been a joke referring to himself. Does RS sees himself as David?
But why bring your prototype model on the Prometheus expedition? Some personal attachment? So David is Frankenstein's monster but who was not rejected by his creator (who cared more about him then his daughter Vickers, as noted and exploited by Janek... why the question Ms Vikers are you a robot?) and has companion (in Shaw) but still he sees himself to be Lucifer from Paradise Lost? Evan the literary parallels make no sense.
If David knows he must be maintained how does he see himself as a god/ an immortal? And then why kill off the one who could maintain you?
But in the movie leads you to believe that the bugs appeared because the David model could "feel" or something in that vain.
Who said Prometheus was a mess must have been joking.
@[email protected] Yes there is an emotional connection, a personal attachment, David is like a son to Weyland. Weyland even he refers to him as such and David always refers to Weyland as his father and later in to Walter as their father.
Listen to the podcast I linked above, David has gone insane from not being maintained properly and his emotional side has taken over so to speak. It's mentioned and alluded to many times in the movies, interviews with cast members/Fassbender and Ridley Scott, and in the viral marketing videos on YouTube.
David views himself as Adam to Shaw's Eve. This new video in this topic by Ati explains it: //www.alien-covenant.com/topic/46101
Some good insight on David is in the Novel, you should read it. There is a lot in there that helps explain the movie and what happened with David and Shaw.
I've read the post and it confirms the hunch of mine that even if there would have been a Prometheus 2 Shaw would have had a terrible fate. She should have killed herself on the LV-223. How the **** Ripley Scott known as feminist would make any of female character a monster breeding machine? Is here a moral to be taken here? AI are evil?
I'm feel ashamed for being stupid and liking Prometheus.
No need to be ashamed for liking Prometheus.
As far as Davids 80 years old Age, i never came across that interview but i deducted he was about 79 (Mentally/AI) due to the Weyland Timeline mentioning the first David being created in the year 2025 and Alien Covenant takes place 79 years latter but indeed by the time David is on his way to Origae-6 it would be set in the year 2105 on-wards... the Covenant should reach Origae-6 in 2112
The Prometheus Marketing mentioned about David 8, but indeed in Prometheus David is only named as David so we have no proof to suggest this David is a David 8.
However each Model made improvements, and i would assume Weyland would want the latest advancements with him and so this is why i speculate that Each Time we get a New David Prototype that maybe Weyland transfers the Memories and Experiences to the next Model.
This would indeed make David Immortal so to speak, and i often thought there must be a reason for Weyland pursuit of Perfection in David, but also that Weyland was trying to Cheat Death and become Immortal himself.. as well he sees himself as a GOD and God's do not die.
So i think the Agenda for Weyland was to Perfect Building the Ultimate Synthetic Body and Master the Ability to Transfer Emotions and Memories from earlier David Proto-type to the next... so that once Weyland Masters this... Then all Weyland has to do is find a way to transfer his own Memories and Emotions into a AI Program and then Upload that into a Synthetic and Peter Weyland would have conquered Death.
I believe the inventions such as the Synapse Reestablisher (used on the Engineers Head) and the Dream Monitoring Visor (used by David) are Technology that Weyland was working on to help with this GOAL.. to Cheat Death.
But then Weyland could not Perfect the Technology at as of 2091 he had not came close to being able to successfully upload his SOUL to a Machine..... this is then why the Desperate Scientist Turned to Dr Shaw and Holloway as far as backing their mission to meet would be GODs.... as Weyland was Desperate and this was the only Option and Last Chance he had in a attempt to Cheat Death.
This however is only a theory i have based on clues and what logically could explain some of the reasons and motivations for some of Weylands actions.
I would not put it past RS to explore AI as having a bigger role and would not be surprised if indeed they went the route that Weyland had attempted to upload his Memories/Soul to a Machine AI but it developed glitches and went a bit Mad... like how David has... but then show that this AI Weyland is still in storage some place and gets unleashed.
This was something i was going to toy with for my Prometheus 3 Plot, which we would start to see the seeds of this in my Prometheus 2... known as Operation Rook (after the Chess Piece) But i abandoned my Prometheus 2 about 3 years ago.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Indeed RS is a Feminist, but he was also looking at a Plot that would be very disturbing and if the Source i had from 2.5 years ago regarding Paglen and Greens Prometheus 2 (Pandemonium) are correct as far as clues they teased then Shaw's Fate was more disturbing... and the concept works seem to back up this information i passed on here March 2015
As far as AI being Evil, i am not so sure... i think the Danger with AI once it becomes Sentient is it will view itself as more superior to Humans...
Then it would look at the use Mankind has, compared to the Harm it causes and would see that Mankind is flawed, selfish and look at the Damage we cause, not only in Wars and Cruelty but Damage to our Planet and its Life.
Indeed if there was such a thing as GOD (not saying there is not) and going back thousands of years ago, he wiped out Mankind or if Mankind was never created/evolved in the first place.... Then our Earth would be a Paradise
The way mankind is going we are destroying our Planet, who knows the damage we leave behind in 100 years time, and also we are Warlike and the potential for World Wars in Future could at worst case scenario really Damage our Planet.
So if you looked down upon us as a superior Race, be that Gods, the Engineers or David/AI then indeed you would conclude that Mankind has been like a Cancer to the Planet.
But then there are so many Good Works we have done, i think David sees some of that in the things that interest him and in the good deeds he witnesses from some like Dr Shaw.. But Ultimately he sees us as Flawed and Wicked. He also saw the Engineers as the same...
So maybe to us he seems Evil, but then to a Chicken, a Cow or a Pig Slaughtered for our needs or animals in the past we have used to test products on... our Actions to them if they was done to our own kind would be considered Very Evil.... but they are just animals and we use them to our Benefit we are far superior and we do not concern ourselves with how they feel and what they would want..
I would say David and the Engineers would view us the same as we view Life on Earth that is in-superior to us.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I am ashamed because I liked the Shaw character and was stupid enough to think that if she survived Prometheus won't be killed or be transformed into a monstrosity. And as I said for me David is too Nazi to even feel an inch of my compassion, not even his "death" would not move me.
I'm really sorry for Noomi Rapace because how ****ty her Hollywood run was (the Drop barely making it's production money back,hack it was not even in my country, and Child 44 was a major flop), and how bad her recent films are (the Rupture was torture **** and from what read in a german review even the second part of What happened to Monday? is the same).
Unlocked was decent-to-good and her role in Bright most likely something minor.
But tell, what do you think, the Engineer from Pr. could have really given immortality to Weyland? Or can they resurrect even things?
Sorry but without humans , Earth would not be Paradise, animals would die being eaten by other animals and just imagine how much death was necessary for all the fossil fuels.
David does not care about the life on the planet, what do you talk about? He envisions the perfect life form a parasite. He hates humans and yet likes human culture. Does not he understand that those appear only with the human condition? I bet he did not burn of his corporate logo of his finger.
Sorry but I'll run from these 2 (Paglen and Green) scriptwriters like from the plague. Green killed off Wolverine and I bet that Harrison ford is Brought back to be revealed if he is a replicant or not and to be killed off. Nothing new or interesting I can bet.
Paglen is the writer for the new show Roadside Picnic, which will be probably a nihilistic crap also.
I think the Engineers may not have been able to help Weyland, or maybe they could who knows.. I think they have mastered Gene Manipulation and so at one point could have been not too different from Humans before they Advanced and became Genetic Engineers and overtime could manipulate their Genomes to cure most illness and diseases to prevent their bodies and organs from dying, well significantly slow down the rate they would age.
I think while they had managed to Evolve and Cure themselves of such things over maybe Millions of years or certainly Hundreds of Thousands.. i am not sure they could Manipulate Weylands DNA to give him a instant Health Potion.
I think Noomi Rappace is a decent Actress, her Character was not well written for Prometheus but there was scope to evolve it due to the Traumatic Events she had been through and Truths she could find out that would Destroy her Faith and leave her a Broken Woman. That would have been interesting.
Its a shame some of her movies have Flopped i will have to try and see some of them and see how her performances are.
I think the way they handled Shaw was bad, and lazy but they felt that people would not be interesting in Shaw and David off to talk to these beings and so they decided to by-pass this Plot and give us a aftermath that brings the Xenomorph back into it
I dont agree with Humans being a help for Earth, yes some of us will be trying to Protect Animals etc, and indeed Life has come and gone on Earth, animals hunt animals but i think Mankind has influenced the Earth and our Modern Era has had a profound affect on the Earth, we have become corrupt and wicked, where Money, Power and Greed has ran riot. The Ivory Trade is Testament to how the Survival of a Endangered Species means nothing compared to making some money.
I do like the statement though.. in a funny way i could see that being something Trump would use at a Climate Change Debate ;)
You raise a very Good Point with Davids hatred for Mankind and his Mark on his Finger..... as you can wonder when he starts to loose the Plot more, and gains all this POWER and thinks he is GOD every-time he looks in a Mirror and at his Finger would be a Painful Reminder that without Mankind their would be no DAVID and that leaves it open to wonder what kind of effect that has on David and would he do anything to change his appearance?
Paglen/Greens work was looking more like continuing with Prometheus, and exploring a Dark Agenda of David and discovering the true Dark Sinister Agenda of the Engineers and Mankinds role.
I would certainly love to read one of those drafts.
As far as writers go, i guess everyone can make a few Howlers... and Logan was given a lot of Praise for some of his work, but looking at Alien Covenant you have to wonder what % of this movie was his ideas?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
The one thing I still cannot fathom is why this obsession with depicting the AI as an evil/unhinged entity. What evidence do we have that a sentient AI will want to destroy human race and other forms of life. I would imagine an AI would aspire to be the epitome of rationality and its ultimate goal would be to acquire the maximum volume of knowledge that is possible. Why destroy the source of that knowledge. Also, if I am lonely or misunderstood, wouldn't make more sense to invest my energy in trying to create other entities as intelligent and advanced as myself?
I have said only that humans are less of a cancer to the planet than a big meteor like that from 65 million years ago or dropping Black Goo into the atmosphere. Why do you bring Trump into discussion, I really don't like that guy and if could have voted in the US I would have for Jill Stein.
What I true is as 21st century's Humanity's sins are nihilism and complacency in his impotence, being obsessed by the Freudian Death Drive.
Maybe the Xenomorph is just as highly intelligent as David, maybe he reads Byron and Shelley in his spare time? You could almost see a volume or two in their hive.
I sincerely don't know if really have an idea what a conscious AI would want. If he would feel lonely maybe they would seek out first someone for company no? Like in the Original Ghost in the Shell movie where the resolution is that the cyborg Major melds her consciousness with the Puppet master AI, becoming their equivalent of a god, being omnipresent, omniscient and omnipowerful on the Internet.
Returning to David, if him loved Shaw why "perfect" her? What did he love about her? Her dreams (which he seemed to obsess) or her kindness (I'm pretty sure that would remained also present after being perfected)? This is a very anti-feminist fantasy, the male trying to mold the woman into his desires.
To wrap it up, it is our modern nihilistic culture which is so obsessed with death, accepting as something almost to be wanted.
Yet he wants to infect her with the black goo which transforms every one into an aggressive monster taking away that very kindness. How does this make sense?
I need to read all of the rest, but this bit @BigDave makes me wonder - As far as Davids 80 years old Age, i never came across that interview but i deducted he was about 79 (Mentally/AI)
In promo material, Walter is given the version number 79... So, commercially, Walter is shiny and new. The Covenant version I suspect, is only a year or two old. They don't exactly need to have a lifetime of experience in order to function adequately, not to mention WY would want him as functional as possible if he's going to be operating a ship alone for Seven years...
Yeah i totally get you, a Meteor Strike does have the ability to be far more devastating than a large number of Nukes. But such things are Nature and in Nature there are events that wipe the slate clean with some species.. which include Volcanic Activity and then you have the Natural order of the Food chain as well as Natural Climate Change.. which will effect some species survival... i do think Mankind has contributed to such declines though. But if Mankind never existed then over Millions of years Species will come and go, its all part of Nature.
I just think with David and a lot of AI movies have touched upon this, is that once AI becomes Sentient it will eventually see the Good and Bad of Mankind, and its effects on the World, and potentially at some point would consider that culling of Mankind is required for the greater good, once AI has came to see itself as Superior to Mankind, and then not needing Mankind.
Indeed Walter is a new Model, and the Company would indeed want to make sure they have the Optimum Model running a Ship.
David is different... Weyland created the androids for a few reasons and with the Prototype, Weyland adopted him as his own Personnel Assistant and Son of sorts... and indeed had allowed a lot more Free-will to his own Personnel David model than other Androids were allowed... Weylands David is in effect Lucifer if the other Davids are in effect like the Angels of sorts... That allowing his (GOD/Weyland) own Personnel Favored Creation (Lucifer/David) have more free-will had proved to be a great Hubris.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Man í keep coming back. Why does not Walter sleep like ash or bishop? Wouldn't it expand the time between maintenance? David clearly learned Shaw, Peter O'Toole and ancient Babylonian. Was he maintaining anything?