Alien Movie Universe

Where is Paradise AKA Planet 4?

Alien-Covenant.com/forum/
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Gavin

MemberTrilobiteJul-14-2017 9:35 PM

Alien and Aliens are both set on Acheron LV-426, with Prometheus set on LV-223. These are two of the three moons orbiting the gas giant Calpamos in the Zeta II Reticuli system, approximately 39 light years away from Earth. Alien 3 is set on Fiorina "Fury" 161, a double Y chromosome penal facility and iron-works presumably found somewhere between Earth and Zeta II Reticuli. Finally, Alien Resurrection is set aboard the USM Auriga, which was allegedly in orbit above Pluto in the Kuiper Belt. The vessel crashed into Earth, of which was also seen briefly, from orbit on board Gateway Station in Aliens.

There was also mention of the Thedus Mining Colony, presumably around 40 light years away from Zeta II Reticuli, and an alien race called the Arcturians that are sexually compatible with humans that are presumably from the planet Arcturus; though its location is unknown.

Which brings us to Planet 4/Paradise and Origae 6. The former is discovered by the USCSS Covenant at the relative start of its eight-year journey to the latter. According to some promotional material (and Xenopedia), Planet 4 is allegedly at the far edge of our galaxy, which would make Origae 6 presumably in another galaxy entirely. Yet the crew of the Covenant was only months into their journey, and when considering the Prometheus took 2.5 years to travel a mere 39 light years only ten years prior, this would suggest that it was Origae 6 that was at the edge of the galaxy, with Planet 4/Paradise being somewhat closer, maybe even closer to Earth than the Zeta II Reticuli system.

 

Thoughts? Theories? Calculations?  

18 Replies

hox

MemberFacehuggerJul-15-2017 2:56 AM

Arcturians are not necessarily 'alien' any more than Russians are 'alien', unless you use the word in the sense of 'foreign'. Arcturians are presumably denizens of the Arcturus system, which is some 37 light years from Earth in the constellation Boötes.

The planned flight time of Covenant contrasted with Prometheus suggests that Origae 6 is not tremendously far away, in the low hundreds of light years at most. That's nothing compared with the distance to the edge of the Galaxy (around fifty thousand light years). It's inconceivable that Origae 6 would be in another galaxy, because you're then talking millions of light years as a minimum.

Some of this can be reconciled  with Special Relativity: you don't have to exceed lightspeed to travel vast distances. The faster you go, the slower your clocks run, and it is entirely possible to travel a million light years in a human lifetime. The problem is, a million years will have passed on Earth. Not much use to the Weyland Company.

So, when Van Leuwen says there have been colonists on LV-426 for 'more than twenty years' in Aliens, this must mean that these ships are exceeding light speed from our perspective. i.e. a real faster than light drive.

Gavin

MemberTrilobiteJul-15-2017 4:19 AM

@ Hox,

While I appreciate your enthusiasm it is well known that the Alien series of movies ignores time dilation and its effects, as shown in Aliens special edition when Ripley says that she promised her daughter she would be home before her eleventh Birthday despite going on a mission spanning almost 160 light years (Zeta II Reticuli half way between Thedus and Earth makes it around 80 years away from earth).

Also unless Private Crowe was bisexual, it is inferred that Arcturian males and females are indistinguishable from each other, thus making them Alien, as in not human.

Remember it took the Prometheus around two and half years to travel to Zet Ii Reticuli, arriving there in 2093. The USS Sulaco only took around two weeks (Hicks said 17 days for a rescue - up to 3 days for the marines to fail to radio in plus two weeks flight time) in 2179. And I think I remember hearing somewhere that Ripley was on an 11 month trip aboard the Nostromos return trip to Thedus in 2122. Nearly six months there, and another six back, means around three months travel time to Zeta II.

Covenant is set 10 years after Prometheus in 2104, nearly 20 years prior to Alien, which at a ball park number would suggest 12-18 months flight time to Zeta II, but the Covenant was only in flight for around 7 months.

hox

MemberFacehuggerJul-15-2017 5:35 AM

@Gavin, we're agreed for the reasons stated that the franchise is not in agreement with Albert Einstein.

There is no evidence that Crowe was bisexual; neither is there any implication that Arcturans are non-human. Exactly the same conversation could be had by marines on shore leave to Bangkok or any large city in Thailand. At best, the dialogue is ambiguous.

Tiwaz

MemberChestbursterJul-15-2017 6:56 AM

Arcturians are an alien race, excerpt from Alien: Sea of Sorrows:

"Chatter erupted throughout the group, and Decker felt a sudden wave of excitement that washed over him like a wave. The Arcturians had been the first alien race mankind had encountered..."

There's is also a mention of Human settlers who later renounce their allegiance to Earth as far as I'm aware. Just can't find it in the books right now.

Eine Theorie die nicht auf Etwas solidem basiert ist für gewöhnlich nur Geschwätz.

Tiwaz

MemberChestbursterJul-15-2017 7:49 AM

As for the possible location, I think RS said "... far side of the galaxy...".

 

Given that the galactic north is up in the A:C still. This should roughly be the position of Paradise.

Eine Theorie die nicht auf Etwas solidem basiert ist für gewöhnlich nur Geschwätz.

Ati

MemberPraetorianJul-15-2017 1:42 PM

'Alien and Aliens are both set on Acheron LV-426, with Prometheus set on LV-223. These are two of the three moons orbiting the gas giant Calpamos in the Zeta II Reticuli system...'

The whole moon-planet-system thing is a big mystery. We do not know where Calpamos is, it is close to Z II R, but it is possible that it is out of the Zeta system. There are sources where Z II R is called a star system, other sources name it a planet system, sometimes Scott himself names it a single planet. Confusing, no doubt!

Interesting fact: in Alien: Engineers there was no LV-223, and the giant was called Epsilon.

“LV-426 is a grey moon shrouded in clouds. Behind it looms its father planet Epsilon, a lurid gas giant banded in red and gold, half-swallowed in darkness.” ~ Alien: Engineers script.

'The descriptions of the pyramids littered around LV-426’s surface are a major problem for the script – in Alien, and more pertinently, Aliens, there is no trace of these monumental structures at all. Though the derelict ship is upended and rendered silent by volcanic activity in Aliens -and therefore easy to overlook- it stretches credulity that the colonists there could have missed a plethora of pyramidal structures that the Magellan crew find within moments. This is probably one of several reasons that the movie was relocated to LV-223.'

As for the 'three moons', Steve Messing's concept art image for Prometheus shows four moons orbiting the father planet:

According to Lindelof, the two moons are not around the same gas giant (Calpamos/Epsilon). We can't state that LV-233 and LV-426 orbit the same planet. (Wiki info is not confirmed...)

Topic about the questions, more images, more info:

http://www.alien-covenant.com/topic/43275

hox

MemberFacehuggerJul-15-2017 1:59 PM

@Tiwaz: random stories made up by people aren't canon. It wasn't in the movie. It didn't happen.

Tiwaz

MemberChestbursterJul-15-2017 2:03 PM

Too bad A:SoS is sold as canonical book. ;)

Eine Theorie die nicht auf Etwas solidem basiert ist für gewöhnlich nur Geschwätz.

I Moon Girl

MemberChestbursterJul-15-2017 2:09 PM

During "The Last Supper" youtube.com video released by 20th Century Fox, Daniels says the following, "This is the first ever large scale colonization mission to go this far in our galaxy."  So, Origie-6 is definitely in the Milky Way.  I just don't think anybody actually knows where.  I wonder if the writers do?

The quote starts at 3:54 by the way.

Gavin

MemberTrilobiteJul-15-2017 2:10 PM

Steve Messing's concept art, which I believe was also used in some form in the Newt fan film is based upon the image below taken from the first movie.  In the above still, there are three moons, one of which is Acheron LV-426. While it is not stated in Prometheus that LV-223 is one of the other moons pictured it is inferred that it is (the middle one I believe). Regardless, I doubt from the basic deductions in my second post that the Covenant even got this far out, which would suggest that Paradise/Planet 4is much closer to Earth...

Which when you consider David, with his genocidal mentality towards the human race, was flying a Juggernaut with a cargo of Pathogen vases away from (presumably) the above system and closer in distance, or more aptly towards Earth could mean he intended to finish what the Engineer in Prometheus started. Good fortune then, that an outpost of Engineers attracted his attention instead.

Tiwaz

MemberChestbursterJul-15-2017 2:27 PM

I agree, Gavin. I merely put "1+1" together in the pic. On the display in the A:C still it says "Galactic Location". That's what i went by. Given all the inconsistencies we have already, this could just be another one.  

Eine Theorie die nicht auf Etwas solidem basiert ist für gewöhnlich nur Geschwätz.

Ati

MemberPraetorianJul-15-2017 3:17 PM

'Too bad A:SoS is sold as canonical book. ;)'

Tiwaz - The most remarkable part of the comment is that it is SOLD. :)

Ati

MemberPraetorianJul-15-2017 3:21 PM

I find the clash of comments on the Arcturian aliens very funny. :) Here is another ingredient of the mystery to consider:

‘The Trilobite’s short lived battle with the Engineer also references one of Ridley Scott’s comic book influences – the Dan O’Bannon scripted/Moebius penned The Long Tomorrow, which also provided a major influence on Scott’s own Blade Runner. In the strip, futuristic gumshoe Pete Club is attacked by a shape-shifting ‘Arcturian spy’ who morphs into a gelatinous, amorphous creature mid-coitus. He fights the creature off and aims his gun. “That’s it for your little Arcturian love games,” quips Club, before destroying the shape-shifter. The Engineer in Prometheus does not prove so triumphant. He is overpowered, impregnated, and births the Ultramorph Deacon creature.’

'O’Bannon/Moebius’ Pete Club, attacked by the Arcturian (perhaps the source of a later gag shared by the Colonial Marines in Aliens.)’:

‘The Engineer under attack. Corresponding panels from The Long Tomorrow can be seen pinned to drawing boards in behind the scenes footage of Prometheus.’:

Tiwaz

MemberChestbursterJul-15-2017 6:11 PM

Ati, the Trilobite/Moebius similarity is striking. Though i doubt Cameron had The Long Tomorrow in mind when he came up with the Arcturians, but who knows. At least the Tri isn't like "Voulez vous coucher avec moi, mon cherrie?". XD

Even when I first saw Aliens, for me they talked bout Extra Terrestrials. I wonder if the Na'vi from Avatar were based on Cameron's "Arcturians".  

As for the Out of the Shadows Trilogy, what can I say, it's said to be canonical. Even on the Titan Books Homepage, if I'm not mistaken. And they went through Fox's approval including story changes demanded by them. Make of it what you will.

Messed up as the franchise is right now it doesn't matter either way. ;)

Eine Theorie die nicht auf Etwas solidem basiert ist für gewöhnlich nur Geschwätz.

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-16-2017 6:50 PM

"According to some promotional material (and Xenopedia), Planet 4 is allegedly at the far edge of our galaxy, which would make Origae 6 presumably in another galaxy entirely"

Yeah i think this proves they dont do their home-work... Prometheus was set on the dark side of the Universe dont forget ;)

Forgive me if i get this wrong... and correct and tell me where any information is to suggest otherwise...  But i have not seen any comments or evidence that exactly tells us about the Covenant Mission as far as the journey distance in LY, the length of the Mission as far as how long they traveled and when they set off.

We know its 7 years to Origae-6 but we dont know the speed of the Covenant, all we know is the ship is a Post Merger Mission and so is after the year 2099.

The Fact the Ship had been caught in the Neutrino Burst as it was attempting to Re-Charge, means this is on a cycle, and now i am sure the movie indicated the Charge Cycles are 16 Months apart or what is 1.6 years.. i think it was that but i have only seen the movie 3 times and i have not read the Book.

I would consider how the Prometheus left our Solar System, and that LV-223 was 39.7LY away, that unless the Covenant was vastly more slower than the  Prometheus Ship... i would assume that Origae-6 would be much further away than LV-426

I would speculate the Total Journey time for the Covenant Mission would have been at least 8.5 years, but no more than 10 years.

But we cant speculate how far Origae-6 is because we do not know the Speed of the Covenant,  we can assume its surely not as fast as the Sulaco... and i think we can assume its faster than the Prometheus... but then we cant be sure how fast it is, it could be the same as the Nostromo or quicker or slower.

I think as they would have been a First Charge Cycle (at least) into their journey before they detect the signal from Paradise which takes them 7 weeks to get to.. i think its safe to assume that Paradise is not far away as far as the Covenants Travel time, it must be what?  2-5 years Tops if the Covenant went straight to Paradise.. but we cant be sure as again we have no details as far as i know as to when the Covenant Ship had left for its mission.

So i think Planet 4 is further than LV-426, by i would assume at least 3-4 X further.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-16-2017 6:52 PM

As far as LV-223/426 indeed on screen we get no 100% clues, and we have had a few conflicting comments from RS and Lindeloff, but i think the Status Quo is that they are in the same System.   Well as far as the Zeta 2 Binary System.

But RS had mentioned they are also around the same Gas Giant and the Fire and Stone Comics had to work with FOX/RS and they show us that LV-223 and LV-426 are Moons around the same Gas Giant.

While i cant say if this is 100% accurate the Source i had 2.5 years ago did describe Paradise pretty much how it looked in Alien Covenant... the only differences are.

They claimed it was 3-4X the size of Earth, it had 5 Moons, but concept showed just 3.  It was located about 600 Light years from Earth, but they said it could have been 600 or 60 Parsecs.

It is located in and around or past the Ophiuchus constellation.

But again i cant say if this is 100% true, as it supposed to be based on the ideas at the time of the Paglen/Green Drafts.

Looking at the Speeds of Ships as shown in the Alien Franchise, i would think how close Planet 4 looked would mean it could not be 600LY away... However Origae-6 could indeed lie that far away, if the ship was like 50% Faster than the Nostromo.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

hox

MemberFacehuggerJul-19-2017 1:03 AM

Did you notice in the movie that the location of the planet has a certain stated Right Ascension and Declension? Declension (a grammatical term) is a cock-up. The actor should have said Declination. It's further messed up by saying these coordinates are 'from our current location'. Right Ascension and Declination are an Earth-centred coordinate system. An RA of 47.6 is also taking liberties, because it's normally something stated in hours, minutes and seconds. However, if you take this to be an angle, and a Declination of 24.3 that would put it somewhere in the sky roughly in line of sight with the Pleiades cluster. These coordinates only tell you where something is in the sky, not how far away it is.

BigDave

MemberDeaconJul-19-2017 4:06 AM

Indeed HOX i dont think they really look into the Science behind things, even simple things like Location, would have been nice to had been given some information of a departure date and rough location..

So lets take the Pleiades

It would have been nice if they thus had said after the Neutrino Burst that the ship has to be repaired while it was near the 27 Tauri system 431 Light Years away.

And then had mentioned about when they departed, lets say if it was mentioned as December 2101

Then we would be able to work out the ship had traveled at about 140LY Per year, and so then we could work out that Paradise is about  the 410LY-416LY or 446-451LY Ball Park away from Earth.

If this Example was correct then Origae-6 would be about 1400LY away.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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