The Crossing: What Can Be Deduced?13,355 Views65 RepliesAdd A Reply
Since the novelization by Foster (Alien: Covenant - Origins) won’t be dealing with what happened to David and Shaw between Prometheus and Alien: Covenant, what can be deduced from the beautifully made short film The Crossing?
Firstly, it’s David’s point of view that we get. He tells the story. Unless he is lying, of course, we know that Shaw repaired David (attached his head) before they set out on the ship (the juggernaut), that is before they left LV-223. Thus his comment: “We were able to activate their ship, and set course for their home world”. So, they activated the ship together (which can be seen in the screenshot above). They worked together, enjoying each other’s company, perhaps even love (David could, of course, have played cat and mouse with her)?
We also know from Prometheus that they left LV-223 before the Deacon was born. We know from Alien (Kane) and from Alien: Covenant, that the growth rate is very rapid (within 24 hours). So, David and Shaw must have left the planet within 24 hours.
As they have set course for the Engineers’ homeworld (which they must have found on the holographic map?), Shaw asks David “How long?”. David’s response is: “Impossible to say”. So, they must have found the coordinates to the Engineers’ homeworld, but it’s impossible to calculate the distance (and thus the time it will take to get there?). Shaw is therefore put to sleep in one of the hypersleep chambers (in order not to waste oxygen and empty the food supply?).
David was then alone on the juggernaut - for how long? He was alone and “learned of their ways”. What does that imply? He could study and learn about the engineers, their knowledge and their customs, and perhaps their cruelty and vanity (playing God)? He could also explore what was on the ship (pathogen etc).
David and Shaw left LV-223 in 2094. The happenings on Planet 4 was in 2104 (10 years later). How long did the trip to the engineer homeworld take? As they arrive at their homeworld David is the vengeful demon we see in Alien: Covenant and exterminates the engineers. He loathes both engineers and humans.
After the juggernaut has crash landed, Shaw is still alive (and awake). In Foster’s novel, she has a room of her own decorated with simple wooden furniture, and paper (to write or draw on) - from wood which must have been acquired from the surrounding forest and then “manufactured on site”. For how long did they live in the juggernaut? In Alien: Covenant, David has his dwelling and laboratory in the temple. Shaw is by then dead, experimented on and murdered by David. What has happened?
@Gralen We don't know if it only has one city. We're only shown one city, there could be more, but the pathogen would've wiped out all animal life across the planet.
It actually makes perfect sense that their homeworld is a pristine Paradise, a religious haven, while their facilities are on other worlds. But then again it could just be one world they seeded out of many while their true homeworld looks quite different.
One of the things that points toward planet 4 being their homeworld is when ricks says something about "main sequence star, just like ours, but old, very old".
Ok just watched the end of Prometheus and as Shaw arrives at the Lifeboat the Outer Airlock Door/Entrance is open, she then shuts it from the inside, and then proceeds to open the 2nd Airlock Door that leads to Vickers Suite.
We then get a Edit of the Full Version, as she places her Helmet on the Bar and then Proceeds to check out the sound she hears from the Trillobite, the Door she takes to the Corridor where the Med-Pod room is, is indeed open.
When the Engineer arrives he would have came through the First Airlock Entrance as the Computer sets off a Airlock Breach Warning, the Engineer then forces the Doors of the 2nd Airlock Door open (that leads to Vickers Suite) and then runs at Dr Shaw and pushes her.... she then activates and opens the Med-Pod Door allowing the Trilobite to attack.
She leaves while the Trilobite and Engineer are Wrestling, at this point the Trilobite has not got the Engineer pinned on the floor.
Dr Shaw then has to open the 2nd Airlock Door (leads to Vickers Suite) which closes behind her, and then she opens the Entrance Airlock Door which is also closed.
She jumps down while this door is open and lands on the floor, where she is lying down for a little while.
I cant see how she can see inside the Lifeboat from this position and besides the Door to Vickers Suite is closed.
I will assume as the Engineer opened both Doors, but they was both closed when Dr Shaw made her escape that indeed both Doors would also automatically close and so i think its likely the entrance door closes after Dr Shaw hits the floor outside.
We see not proof either way to show the Door open/closed, but as the Doors had been closed even after the Engineers Entrance then i would assume both would close again.
The one between Vickers Suite 100% is closed after she leaves.
So i dont think she would have seen the outcome of the Fight, she may assume the Trilobite won, because of how things looked when she left and how after laying down for a little while the Engineer did not make a appearance and she would know the Trilobite may not be able to open the Doors.
This means after hours or the next day, Dr Shaw could enter the Lifeboat and look through the 2nd Airlock Window to spot the Trillobite and Engineer... i dont think she would have had a clear view though... not how the Lifeboat was set out.
But after watching for a while with no Reaction, she could open up the Door and take a quick peek.. where she may indeed Spot the Bodies of them on the Floor then cautiously assess the situation.
Then decide to make a rush to get what ever supplies.
I can only assume the Deacon Gestation took days, and by the time it had Chest Busted, Dr Shaw had obtained all the equipment she needed and then had set off some distance to the other Temple.
At this point its now open to debate if they soon left, and spent Months floating in Space before she put David together, or if she indeed spent time on LV-223 before she did that.
The Light is interesting as looking at the Juggernaught and the Set for it, its odd that these would be Windows. But its something we cant rule out.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"It stated in the 'Art and Making of Covenant' that David kept her alive while he experimented on her and in the Collector's edition book it said he killed her to prevent Shaw from leaving him, androids have a funny way of showing affection".
The recent pod cast on AVP with Dale and Matt revealed some interesting perspectives not least that the aim in the second act was to let the narrative breath and retain some ambiguity which was built around David "The unreliable narrator". It maybe one of the reasons that the Tapestry of drawings which was planned for the Catacombs which showed David's journey of descent was not pursued in the movie it would have stopped the conjectural nature of the act dead in its tracks.
This highlights that the crossing which belongs in the 2nd act starts from the place of the unreliable narrator.
That said, and given ADF wrote the novel from a particular point in the evolution of the screen play, which locked his novels relationship with the movie at that point, there are several interesting elements that can be meshed together and sit with the quote I began this post with.
1) David's repair was carried out by Elizabeth.
2) Once he was repaired they set course for the Engineers Home world and Elizabeth was placed in cryo-sleep.
3) Whatever additional insight David gained in flight lead to his decision to deploy the pathogen and the juggernaut did not crash it landed, as Walter deduced and challenged him over in the novel, which David does not counter he simply responds he was not made too serve.
4) David woke Elizabeth and materials and necessities were transferred to the quarters Elizabeth lived in, which Walter in the novel discovered on his first reconnaissance of the Cathedral.
5) At some point Elizabeth decided to attempt an escape which is captured in the hologram of her singing and the hologram in the novel implies she can be seen anxiously looking over her shoulder as she manipulates the controls.
6) Unable to pilot effectively she crashes the ship and this leads to the point made in the collectors edition where she is clearly over come (she may have been injured) and subsequently killed to avoid her escaping.
This seems an important step change in David's relationship and gives credibility to their changing relationship where subsequent to her attempted escape his love is expressed in overt possessiveness, control and bringing her into his experiments.
As David did love Elizabeth he would not want to admit to the crew that she effectively rejected him in trying to leave nor explain what became of her subsequently. His opening remarks on what happened in the novel is she dies in the crash, a crash which occurs because the Juggernaut was on auto pilot to the Home world and which David could not intervene over including the dispersal of the Pathogen. Walter quickly deduces the description of Elizabeths death is a lie and leads him to further deduce the Juggernaut did not crash either and that David is responsible for the release of the payload.
I have always been troubled by David's arc with Elizabeth but knowing this kind of coercive control and exploitation is classic behaviour of an over controlling and possessed lover such a story thread would make sense of Prometheus, their Crossing and what happened in the year 2094 whilst on Paradise, the year of Elizabeths death immortalised on the tombstone in the novel.
The deacon is born with a placenta, has humanoid characteristics and born, as the Deacon in the mural with the same bishops mitre shaped head, of an Engineer. Clearly Elizabeth was not prevented from scavenging in the life boat for supplies and other important personal elements found amongst the ruins of the Prometheus. This could be because the Deacon has :-
1) Moved off or
2) Being more humanoid has a much longer gestation period.
@BigDave - "I cant see how she can see inside the Lifeboat from this position and besides the Door to Vickers Suite is closed"
From her position on the ground outside the door? All she had to do was stand up and go look. The outer airlock door was wide open.
I don't recall the inner airlock door closing, but even if it did close behind her (it should, it is an 'airlock'), there is a window on that door. All she had to do was look in to see if the Engineer or trilobite were lurking about. She had a direct line-of-sight view of the door to the hall where the Engineer and Trilobite lay as well.
That door was also open when she left. You can see both the airlock door window and that doorway in this screen grab.
If you obtained the Screen Grab then you should see this door with the orange does shoot behind her, Dr Shaw is in such a rush that looking over her shoulder all she would be able to tell is at that point the Engineer and Trilobite are not following.
I think the image posted is a interesting one, because i would assume for sure that if you peered from this window you would likely not see what is inside the area where you marked Shaw as heading from. She would be able to see if something leaves that room but i doubt you could see directly into the room.
Also the distance between the inner door and outer door is a god 10ft or more.. maybe 15ft? i think its between 10-15ft foot and then with the outer door closed she would have no place to stand maybe to see clearly from the first Airlock to the Vickers Suite not as clear line of sight to be able to see the area where the Med-Pod is.
So i think the only way she would be able to check out if the Trillobite or Engineer had left the room would be to enter the Lifeboat and peer through the 2nd Airlock Door which you circled above and i am not sure she would have a clear view of what lies behind the door area where the Corridor to the Med-Pod is.
I think a interesting thing is the effects of the Edits to the movie and what we get, as this image i found on the internet shows the Engineer Entering some part of the Lifeboat before he attacks Shaw and we can clearly see this does not quite add up with the route Dr Shaw shot unless the area in the Suite that leads to that Corridor where the Med Pod room is, has to have two doors to it.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I hope i never came across in a bad way with that reply though ;) sorry if i have. I think i will have to watch the extras and look at the Longer Scene.
I agree regarding the Deacon, i think those two outcomes are the most likely explanations as i cant really think of any others.
Also regarding the Novel, i have not read it yet but it seems to add some interesting parts to the Plot... who knows if we are to consider it as Canon... Does it mention what happened to the Mother/Docking Ship?
As i recall Wayne Haagg and someone else talked about how Both Ships had a Dust up and this is why they crashed, so it meant both crashed. someone posted a image on here showing a Crashed Mother Ship.
But the Novel as you suggested does then seem to indicate that the Juggernaught Survived this and it was Dr Shaw who crashed it while making a escape.
I think its very odd that she would be singing that Tune while making a hasty escape though... unless she had done something that made her think David is incapacitated and has no change to reach her before she escapes.
Its going to be interesting debating the Novel Differences to the Movie, as the Novel paints a different picture to a number of events and is not as ambiguous.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"i would assume for sure that if you peered from this window you would likely not see what is inside the area where you marked Shaw as heading from."
How would she see around a corner? She would only see the main room and the open doorway to the med pod hallway, and the open doorway immediately to the right as you walk in the main room, which also connects directly to the med pod hallway.
"Also the distance between the inner door and outer door is a god 10ft or more.. maybe 15ft? i think its between 10-15ft foot and then with the outer door closed she would have no place to stand"
I am not following you. The outer airlock door was NOT closed.
"So i think the only way she would be able to check out if the Trillobite or Engineer had left the room would be to enter the Lifeboat and peer through the 2nd Airlock Door which you circled above and i am not sure she would have a clear view of what lies behind the door area where the Corridor to the Med-Pod is."
Through that inner airlock door window - actually two, as it is a double door, each with a control panel - she would only have a view of the entire main room and the two open doorways I mentioned above.
"I think a interesting thing is the effects of the Edits to the movie and what we get, as this image i found on the internet shows the Engineer Entering some part of the Lifeboat before he attacks."
That view is from the full deleted scene. It's the same door he appears from in the theatrical cut, this is just the reverse view. The little area the trilobite attacks the Engineer in has four doors. The big one from the main room, the one to the med bay, an unidentified door, and this one, which is the doorway to the short hall the Engineer chases Shaw through in the uncut scene.
If you walk into the main room from the airlock, immediately on the right is another large doorway. Walk in that small area and there is a short hallway to the left that goes directly to the small area the trilobite attacked the Engineer in. It has a malfunctioning door that keeps opening and closing. Watch the deleted scene and you can see the layout clearly.
According to “The Alien Universe Timeline” (Canon?), they arrived on LV-223 in the morning of December 25, 2093, and David and Shaw left the planet on January 1, 2094. Shaw’s “daughter” impregnated the engineer (and Shaw fetched the parts of David) in the afternoon of December 26.
This gives Shaw and David 5 days to prepare the journey to the Engineers’ homeworld. The Deacon must then have a longer gestation period (which many of you have suggested) than neomorphs, xenomorphs and protomorphs (more than 5 days).
David and Shaw left LV-223 on January 1, 2094, and arrived on Planet 4 in December 2094. The journey would then have taken just under a year.
The Covenant arrives on Planet 4 on December 26, 2104. This would mean that David has spent 10 years on the engineer homeworld.
the main area directly after the airlock is where the enigineer and trilobite are as shown. in the movie the trilobite leaves the med pod room as when it incapacitates the engineer, who never entered the med pod room, falls backwards so they are both in the open area directly adjacent to the air lock. yes they both die but shaw doesn't know this, she ran and doesn't see the conclusion of the fight so again, why risk it? from her perspective she has left 2 huge and highly aggressive species in there fighting it out and im sure she doesn't want to risk dealing with either of them, especially after it would be logical for her to believe there would be a winner and therefor she wouldn't have much chance against who ever won that epic battle.
Indeed this is kind of the points i was trying to make, if Dr Shaw peered through the 2nd Airlock leading to the Main Vickers Suite she would indeed and as i was trying to point out, she would only see what is in that room and what would appear at the Door Way to the other Rooms, anything a few feet into those rooms would not be seen from the other side of the Airlock 2nd door, the best view would be up close rather than a bit further away trying to peer through both windows.
My point about the first door, was that if she ever came back up to look into the ship, then how the Lifeboat had crashed i think with the door closed she would have a hard time getting to stand up on the out side and peer through that door and then to peer through this window and the 2nd one considering the gap between the two i think she would have a hard time seeing what is past the 2nd Airlock Door.
I see your point as far as this Door was open, which i also mentioned in another post, that this Door was closed after the Engineer Entered... Dr Shaw had to open both these Doors and the first one had closed afterwards and the only time she peered back was as she went through this door. She then had to open the main Entrance Airlock Door and jumped down.. And so i ASSUMED after she leaves this door will close because it had done so after she had entered it the first time and after the Engineer entered unless he came in from another place, which i doubt. But there is not 100% way to see if this Outer Airlock Door had closed after she jumped out as we dont get any shots of the door.
As far as the Image goes that i posted indeed, i assumed it was from inside the ship past the Main Room, it seems similar to some of the corridors we see Vickers in during the movie.
And so indeed the Full Scenes would no doubt cover more of the lay out and show where this was, as you clearly pointed out. I was going by what limitations the Threatrical Cut showed.
Where Editing makes things not go as smooth, one example is as soon as she is free from the Trilobite and leaves that area she grabs her Helmet and it seems this was located much closer to where the Trilobite/Engineer was... due to cutting but the actual full scene would show that she had to leave that area and then go up to the Bar which is where she left her stuff while she had a drink of Vodka etc
I have not seen the Full Deleted Scenes for a while and so details on the door lay outs are sketchy but jogging my Memory indeed its as you suggested and the corridor area beyond the Main Room that leads to the Med-Bay is larger than it appears in the Theatrical Cut because they cut down a lot of the sequence.
I still think Dr Shaw just wanted to get out ASP, and we see her only peer back once (not sure how many times in the Deleted Scenes) but i would assume she did not catch the point where the Trilobite got the upper hand and then Implanted its Embryo etc.
And once she went past the Airlock Door and then outside i dont think she would be able to look inside and spot anything in the main room unless she climbed up back into the Airlock and had a peek. Which she did not... But the Topic is about the Crossing and so potentially she could return and then have a peek into the Main Room and watch for a little while and not spot the Engineer and Trilobite... which we can only assume then she may decide to have a closer look and Spot they appear to both be dead and then used this time to get what ever supplies she needed.
I think the fun part is speculating to cover any potential flaws, and so its more likely that Dr Shaw would have needed supplies and while some could be salvaged outside, i think its more logical that a lot was also inside the Life Boat and so after not seeing the Engineer come after her... i would assume she thinks the Engineer was killed by the Trilobite and she may think the Trilobite cant open Doors or else it would have escaped before, and so i think she would enter the Lifeboat and peer through the window and check it out for a while.... then not seeing no signs of either the Trilobite or Engineer, she would then take the Chance (maybe David reassured her) that its seems they are both incapacitated, and so if she then went into the Room and looked into the Corridor that had the Engineer and Trilobite she would then notice they are Motionless, and at this point she may think they both died... i dont think she would know the purpose of the Trilobite and so she would feel more at ease to have the confidence to go and get supplies.
I would then assume when she heads off to the other Temple, that the Deacon has no Chest Busted yet and has a longer Gestation Cycle.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Indeed thats a great point and a nice break down, i did consider the time gap and so it had to be 4-5 days when we discussed this before, including 4-5 years ago.
The Time-Line to AC as you pointed out indeed means they could have been on Paradise for up to 10 years as nearly 11 years passed from Jan 1st 2094 to December 2104
I do find it hard to believe the Juggernaught would take a year though, not when we consider the Covenant had taken 7 weeks from its location after the Neutrino Burst, we dont know how far the Covenant has traveled but due to the Weyland-Yutani Merger it would be no more than 5 years and 7 weeks away from Paradise to Earth's System and so i would think the Engineers ships can travel more than 5X the Speed of the Covenant.
I think Dr Shaws Hair is the Big Clue, regardless if she remained on LV-223 before David was put back together and then they left, or if they left while he was in two pieces but they could not head to Paradise until Dr Shaw put him back together (which i think makes more sense as far as avoid Plot Holes).
She clearly had some time to think about putting David back together, i think this adds up with RS comments how he had said before AC that Saw will SLOWLY put David back together again, this seemed a very odd comment, how does she slowly repair him?
Does it take her a while to perform this task, and again how long is slowly, hours, days? Well now we have THE CROSSING and seeing Dr Shaws Hair Growth we can clearly see the Slowly part must refer to her having to take some time to consider putting him back together and so they would interact for a number of Months while David has to persuade to Shaw that he would be NO HARM to her and after a Period of months i would say at least 6 she FINALLY felt Safe to put him back together, i think when we look at the Bond in the Crossing it appears considering the end of Prometheus that this Bond had taken more than days to reach.
The Next thing is when David puts Dr Shaw in cryo-sleep we really dont know what he gets up to, he could head right to Paradise, but i think he has been lying to Dr Shaw as he does with the Crew, both in the Movie and Novel.
Clearly the Ship did not Auto-Pilot to Paradise, i think indeed it could be set to do so, but i dont think its a case of no soon as that ship leaves LV-223 it then automatically goes to Paradise, would it not go to Earth? or where ever the Target was for that Ship.
So its quite open for David to go any other place in the mean time, but this is a area of pure speculation where we have no real Solid Proof her did. I guess a lot comes from how he Learned their Ways.
Is there enough he could learn from the Juggernaught? And we have to try and look at it from Davids point of view, a very curious Robot he was and he was fascinated with the Engineers Technology and no doubt he would want to learn more about what as that Outpost all about.
So did he already know enough before Dr Shaw recovered his Body? Would he know enough from that Juggernauts systems, or what he finds out when combined with what he already knows.. gives him the answers he needed.
Or would he be tempted to check out the other temples?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Thanks for your response. The docking ship indeed the entire way the flashback in the movie is explained, as you can imagine in prose is quite different. Its much more about how he tells his lies and absolves himself from responsibility. You do not get a descriptive prose version of what we see in the movie.
As to her singing take me home country roads as she is trying to escape, for me full of nerves and wondering whether she can pull it off I could see her singing the song as a way of geeing herself up letting off nervous tension.
Why it works well for me is it fits perfectly with David and how at crucial junctures he snaps into a judgement. His super fast programming allowing him to make the tea for Sir Peter (passive), whilst recognising within seconds he is immortal and Peter is not, suppressing his really superior aggressive feelings, a point that Ridley makes well in an interview. Within seconds he has made a judgement about his creator.
It applies to all of his responses where he is picked on. Ok Charlie I am not a real boy but lets see what happens if I spike your drink you arrogant little git, who will do anything for his answers (the perfect passive/aggressive response).
With Elizabeth, whom he came to love, like movies like Misery once the protagonist tries to leave and is unsuccessful in order to dominate, retain and control of their victim, the antagonist will descend into humiliation and overt control. To experiment on Elizabeth after she proved "so disappointing" makes perfect sense of his previous behaviour and that of a coercive controller. Like Misery his humiliation is in the view of the humiliator a bizarre warped expression of their love and care for the victim.
Two other matters are noted in the novel :-
1) There a number of bipeds in the laboratory. They suggest a "missing link" morph between the Deacon and the XXX121 had already been achieved in the ten years by David. As well as a chilling description of an insect forerunner version of the lifecycle which David boasts of creating.
2) When the burster emerges from Oram David notes it makes much collateral damage of a human host as opposed to an Engineer host which is so much bigger, which intriguingly suggests David has seen an Engineer burst previously.
The novel hints and suggests David had achieved a great deal during his ten years which makes the "I found this one lying around" feel on second reading even more incongruous other than to put Oram at ease. He also describes the Eggs in the cave as immature and offers him an ointment which suppresses the odours of the Eggs and is vaguely intoxicating, all of these points trying to disarm Oram.
"My point about the first door, was that if she ever came back up to look into the ship, then how the Lifeboat had crashed i think with the door closed she would have a hard time getting to stand up on the out side and peer through that door and then to peer through this window and the 2nd one considering the gap between the two i think she would have a hard time seeing what is past the 2nd Airlock Door."
Still not sure I am following you, as the first door (outer airlock door) was open when she left. She can walk right into the airlock without opening any door and look through the window.
Or are you talking about the inner door, which is actually two doors with the windows on each about a foot apart? If you watch the movie closely, each of those doors has its own entry keypad, so she can open them independently.
"And so i ASSUMED after she leaves this door will close because it had done so after she had entered it the first time"
Actually, she closed the outer airlock door when she entered the first time. It did not close on its own. In the full deleted scene, when the Engineer entered through the second airlock door (the double doors) it closes after him. When Shaw went through the inner airlock door as the was leaving, it auto closed behind her, as you pointed out. When she jumped out the outer door, the shot stays on that door for a second. It was not closing. It seems they do not close automatically unless someone pushes the right button, other than the inner airlock door.
"As far as the Image goes that i posted indeed, i assumed it was from inside the ship past the Main Room, it seems similar to some of the corridors we see Vickers in during the movie."
I found the movie set layout. Much clearer on this one. Bottom arrow is Shaw's path when she first entered and the top arrow is the way the Engineer entered. In the full deleted scene he chased Shaw through that upper hall.
There were also storage lockers in the airlock where she could have gathered supplies from, without even entering the main room. We saw oxygen and an axe in the movie, so presumably anything needed for an excursion outside the lifepod would have been stored there. There was also one of the 8 wheeled EVA vehicles left at the pyramind, probably lots of useful gear and supplies in that too.
Here are a few screen grabs from the crossing. The tools and bottles are clearly not Engineer manufacture. If this is a maintenance/repair kit for a synthetic, that would have been inside the Prometheus or the lifepod. The lifepod was originally meant for Weyland, not Vickers. Since David was his son/servant, it would make sense if his maintenance gear was in there.
It's all speculation, of course. Interestingly, in Lindelof's script, it does say Shaw pulls everything she can out of an emergency cabinet as the Engineer and trilobite are fighting. She watches the trilobite incapacitate the Engineer, then leaves.
“The unreliable narrator” is interesting, especially when it comes to David. It makes me think of “The Tell-Tale Heart” by Edgar Allen Poe. The narrator tries to convince the reader that he is not insane (which he is).
In Foster’s novel, Shaw not only lived for some time in the juggernaut, she also had living quarters in the temple (as you point out Michelle). So, she lived for some time in the juggernaut where they had manufactured furniture and paper by using wood from the surrounding forest, and she also lived for some time in the temple where she had living quarters of her own. It seems like years before David made an end to her freedom, privacy, and life?
Apparently, they arrived on Planet 4 in December 2094. On the carved urn (made by David) purportedly containing her ashes, Shaw died 2094 (36 years old) in the crash. We know she didn’t, but how long did she live (and in freedom)?
Did Shaw try to escape and was the one who crash landed the juggernaut? It’s a good theory but the problem with it is that she had living quarters in the juggernaut as well (with wooden furniture and paper made from wood from the forest around them). She lived there for quite some time. Walter notes that the juggernaut didn't crash but landed, but it might have been shot down (engineer defence)?
Although I agree that it sounds feasible that Shaw would try to escape from an increasingly crazy synthetic, how do you explain her dwelling in the juggernaut, filled with fabricated things by using the surrounding environment? They must have learned how to make pulp etc. If Shaw crashed, survived and lived there by herself, wouldn't David have found her right away?
“Take Me Home, Country Roads” is probably what Shaw wants (but she also wants answers), but that doesn’t necessarily mean that she tries to escape from David? A distress signal is sent and she hopes that someone will pick up the signal and take them away from there?
The stuffed bipeds in the lab are xenos (or perhaps deacons?) and neos. How could David create them when there were no hosts in sight? David could recreate the xeno, but needed victims (like Oram). But as you point out, he compares the birth from a human with that from an engineer. In that case, there must have been engineers still living after the Holocaust?
Good comparison with “Misery” and the need to control (and keep). Did you notice the allusion to M.R James’ ghost story when, as Walter is playing the flute, David playfully remarks: “Whistle, and I’ll come”?
It’s interesting that the sci-fi industry has neglected Einstein’s theory of relativity. If you were to travel at light speed (which is impossible) space-time would contract and you would get to your destination in 0 time. No need for hypersleep chambers. :)
Anyway, the time it took to get to Planet 4 apparently is almost a year (but David might, of course, have been up to something on the way). As you suggest, they might have been floating around in space for months before Shaw decides to trust David and put him together. They must then have brought plenty of food from the Prometheus wreckage or Ms Vicker’s life boat.
I agree that it’s a bit hard to see how she “slowly” puts him together. One cord at a time? What were they doing all this time (as they floated about)? Playing cards? David would have a problem with poker hands. :)
@Michelle Johnston I had made a previous supposition when I first posted here that David had killed Shaw after she sent that distress beacon, although I thought he had initially crashed the ship, marooning them for some time on the planet as a sort of Adam and Eve.
I am going to make a couple of more guesses about David. He was made completely sexually impotent by his creators; able to understand and observe sex and creation, but not partake...thus, he has no genitals or seed. No genitals! There I said it! He's a Ken barbie doll. I'm going to hazard a guess that Weyland was asexual himself and saw no need for his perfect creation to have a set, or be able to engage in sex acts. Vicker's is probably an in-vitro/artifical or surrogate womb baby.
This could give some further essence to Giger's art being David's weird android dreams in these movies. In Giger's art there are numerous explicit images of human-like female creatures being penetrated anally, vaginally, and orally by biomechanical tubes. In the case of David's drawings of Shaw, there is an oral penetration, and this may be David's only way to potentially act out sex and an impregnation (violent creation). He can potentially do this himself via expectorating up embryos (like his creations the face huggers) into his victim mouths/throats (could have been attempting this on Daniels).
Food for thought! Violence and sex are trademarks of the human condition, possibly the Engineers as well, and now David!
And then with Resurrection we have autons, robots created by robots. A way to create, by a desire to create still manifested in androids hundreds of years after Ripley.
I’m starting to wonder if Shaw died twice. The Crossing seems to suggest to me that Shaw was ill. As well as a way of using less food supplies etc, Shaw going into hypersleep may have been a way of slowing down her deteriorating state. Using hypersleep in this way certainly worked for Peter Weyland. David, I imagine would also have been to communicate with Shaw in hypersleep state, just as we saw him communicate with Peter Weyland in Prometheus. At some point David learned of the Engineers ways, but was this knowledge communicated to Shaw during hypersleep?
Now to my point about Shaw dying twice, if Shaw had an infection which was brought on by the side effects of the goo would the end result of not being able to treat her, result in her becoming a zombie. Although her body is alive, would the personality Shaw have died? This being the point where David decides he has lost Shaw as person. Something we do not know, is that if Shaw was ill, did this affect her mental state. This could also have acted as a trigger for David to make a judgement call and decide if Shaw was no longer Shaw to him, and then treat her as a lab rat.
One thing that does stand out from The Crossing is that David and Shaw did develop a relationship, but the problem is deciding at what point David’s personality took a downturn. We have been lead to believe that David has gone mad by the time we see him in AC, but trying to decide when he became one bit short of a sub-routine is tricky.
I think The Crossing works well in that we can take it seriously. From a practical movie making perspective, would AC have worked if we had seen Shaw as a zombie?
Maybe Shaw did become some sort of zombie, but the idea might have been ditched because it would not have worked well cinematically and what we could have got, might have been a very second rate xeno/zombie movie with very little credibility.
Thanks for your reply. Its important to stress that Matt and Dane's remarks start this discussion from a position of conjecture and deliberate ambiguity. In the sameway ADF wanted to create ambiguity over the creation story of the XX121 (that the Alien Pathogen was created by the Engineers no one seems to be in doubt about, though how that came about and why and its relation to the catalyser remain again interpretation).
I must quickly point out that after the ambiguity of Prometheus I am surprised they deliberately pursued ambiguity.
As to my interpretation there are two elements in the movie which visually suggest a straight crash, one the appearance of the docking vehicle in the fly over scene at the end and the fact that the bomb doors are open in the crashed juggernaut. However if I wanted to rampantly follow my interpretation I could find plausible outcomes.
The real point is the one of time and point of departure and where she lived on arrival. You mention that living quarters appeared in the Juggernaut, a great edition to the book, but I take it this was established in the first phase pre cryo sleep.The period between David being repaired and Elizabeth entering cryo sleep is unknown but she is seen drinking and looking out reflectively suggesting the passage of time. Once landed they then move to the Cathedral or alternatively only David. Her period in the cathedral may mark her incarceration post escape attempt and during David's experiments on her.
What is extremely notable at the time of the Covenants arrival is that several precious items of Elizabeth are not in the Cathedral but the alcove she made her most intimate living area in the Juggernaut. The journal, the crucifix, the photo of her and Charlie.
So I am Elizabeth I am going to make my escape I know some items were left behind from the crossing and after we landed but I am absolutely going to take my crucifix, photo and journal (they are me), thats assuming she lived freely for a period in the Cathedral. The fact these incredibly important memento's are on board the Juggernaut suggests her last independent actions took place there. Its also worth remembering that Oram on hearing her singing remarks "So much regret. And distress". This for me fits perfectly with the notion of her recognising the truth of the planet and the disaster, her foolhardiness in supporting David so she gets to make the crossing, and her newly developed fear of him.
I am grateful to your playing devils advocate because it makes me think harder not just about a plausible vision but what is implausible. If she wasn't trying to escape what are those items doing on the Juggernaut. If of course it landed securely she may have never moved out of the Juggernaut pre escape attempt. Whether she lived only on the Juggernaut pre escape attempt or lived for a time free in the Cathedral, it is very telling that her precious possessions are on board the Juggernaut both foot paths lead to the same conclusion the message and her important possessions on board the Juggernaut represent her last point of freedom.
If the Juggernaut crashed immediately then once they are certain the air is safe they would leave and Elizabeth would have taken her treasured possessions with her.
Reproduction without a moral compass and for its own sake thats always been the A L I E N for me and its broadly what David says in the cathedral in the book. Its why the Prometheus mythos of creationism within a wider creationism was such an interesting subject. Put simply perverted creationism following a fall in Paradise, or even that mankind is merely an experiment to be redacted by this slightly superior species who amongst other things stole the fire and created a number of unscheduled outcomes.
That he is marooned with a woman whom has treated him with dignity and repaired him and his programming allows him to enter the human emotional dynamic with all power and no wisdom or cir***spection is an extension of those whose sexual motivation is not informed by humanities saving grace, love.
The curse of men is impotence and that of woman being barren. I think Noomi was right there was the potential in a follow up to explore Shaw and a darker side driven by the co dependent relationship of a barren woman and a robot. Definitely a missed opportunity.
“The unreliable narrator”
What if David is lying about having killed the Engineers? It's not like the Covenant crew had time to radioisotope the age of the skeletons(or check the Juggernaut for a full supply of canisters!)....The Engineers on Planet 4 could have been dead for centuries. David just taking the credit. Shaw and David arrived to a long dead civilization. Yet another failure for the Prometheus expedition.
"Actually, she closed the outer airlock door when she entered the first time. It did not close on its own"
Agreed and i am sure i mentioned that in a earlier post.
"It was not closing. It seems they do not close automatically unless someone pushes the right button."
I can see how that looks, but back to the Top Point regarding how it did show us that Dr Shaw shuts the door by the Key-Pad that then allowed the Airlock to be sealed and Oxygen Levels to be stable. We have to consider the Engineer entered via the same Closed Door, but when Dr Shaw left this Door was Closed, and so we cant be 100% sure they Automatically Close, as Shaw entered when it was open and she had to close it from the inside.. If this is the only way the door works then it must mean the Engineer after he entered also used the same Key-Pad to close this door behind.
I lot of my observations do come from the Theatrical Version and indeed the Extended Scenes do offer more insight, and so does the Draft. I always like to consider all clues to make a assumption and so indeed i would think at some point Dr Shaw does manage to discover the incapacitated Engineer and Trilobite.
Thanks for the new Schematic.. i think the main point i was trying to make would be that if i use the same image, i have added a Green X for where the Engineer etc is and the Blue Arrow to the view from the Windows.
And so i dont think Dr Shaw as shown in the Movie, i will have to check the extended scenes though... but Theatrical Cut, she makes a escape and leaves the Inner Airlock door and takes a peek behind her which to her would be her seeing if anything is following her.
If she was to peer through the Windows at any point after, she would not be able to see what is in the passage way where the Engineer and Trilobite are, all she would be able to do is see whats in the main Room.
As far as the Airlock being closed after she leaves, yes its open after she jumps out, and it was open when the Lifeboat Crashed and so the other way the door works would be that the Engineer locked the door after he entered too.
But my point about outside is where Dr Shaw was lying down, she would in No Way be able to see into the Main Room never mind around the Corner from outside
Dr Shaw was lying about where the Green X is and she would not be able to see inside and get a good view from this angle and even if she stood up... My point was assuming the Door was closed then there is only a little Ledge BLUE Arrow that she would have to stand on and try and peer through, which i dont think she would be able to get a good view.
Logically if she was to peer inside to check if its safe, then indeed she would most likely climb back up and take a look through the inner Door, which again she would only be able to spot if the Engineer or Trilobite have moved into the Main Room.
Looking at the Entrance it would be hard to climb onto the Ledge and Open the Airlock Door, and so it would be more logical if the Door Does open once the Inner Airlock Door has been past, this would allow easier access to those on the outside to enter and then seal the door from inside only as a measure to allow the Outside to be sealed off while they then move to the 2nd door.
But again the problem here is that the Door was closed when she made a run for it, which means the Door either Automatically Closed after the Engineer Entered or he had indeed Closed to the Door behind.
I totally agree with your analysis of the other clues, we can safely assume the Repel Gear was on the ATV and it would be a bit of a Coincidence that she managed to obtain all the other stuff in good condition from the Crashed Prometheus Wreckage
Which means she likely obtained it from the Life-Boat, and this is something discussed on here a few times, before and similar a number of years ago.
Which came down to what risk would she take in entering the Lifeboat again, i guess we have to look at it at her point of view and that if she was not sure of putting David back together she would need Supplies, and also if she was to put him back together then she would need Tools to do this and if they are only in the Life Boat then she would have no choice but to return.
Which i think she would carefully do, and indeed would first peer through the 2nd Inner Door and notice nothing has got into the Main Room... if she took time to assess this, then she would conclude that either One or Both of them have left at some point after she got Davids Body, or they are both in that Passage.
So she would have to take a closer look, and we can assume she does and finds them both incapacitated... she would likely not be aware of the Chest Buster Embryo... to her it would appear they are both Dead... i would assume maybe she would Prod them with the Axe or something and then find out for sure they appear Dead. This then allows her to make a dash to grab what she can, but she would be more at ease having discovered they are Dead.
We can then only assume the Deacon Gestation is longer and Dr Shaw had obtained all she needed and got it to the other Juggernaught before the Deacon was born.
I am kind of drawn more to Dr Shaw managed to get the Ship into Orbit while David was in TWO Parts, this would explain the ship appearing to be drifting at the start of THE CROSSING... but this is a Scene Narrated by David and so the drifting Ship could be after David had put Dr Shaw in Cryo-sleep so the scenes after the opening ship drifting could be David telling what happened prior.
I think its interesting to wonder if indeed they left with David in TWO halves, then why would she put him back together? The Ship clearly entered some kind of Fast Acceleration as it left LV-223
The only other option would be they remained on LV-223 before David was assembled.. but then we need to consider a few things, which is the Chronological order of Prometheus, where it shows they left prior to the Deacon Birth... and then ask if they did remain on the Surface, how come the Deacon did not go after them.... i think the Place is Large and so we cant assume the Deacon could find them, but then if Dr Shaw had remained for Months (Due to Hair Growth) this raises the Potential for them eventually being located by the Deacon... however the Deacon could have wondered off to the first Temple and got lost.
So i think Logically it would appear Dr Shaw had left LV-223 with David in TWO Parts and then spend Months drifting in Space before she decided to repair him.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"for me full of nerves and wondering whether she can pull it off I could see her singing the song as a way of geeing herself up letting off nervous tension".
That certainly is a good explanation ;)
some very good debates here and point by all ;)
I think indeed some interesting points regarding David seeing a Engineer Chest Busted, and David had a lot of experiments for sure, i made a Topic to discus these a while ago when we saw the Set Photos leaked, and again after the trailers.
If all the Engineers are dead, then for David to create or had seen and experimented on Xeno-Strain related Creations, which it appears those Eggs where the latest stages of his experiments, then indeed would he not need HOSTS?
I felt the Baby Humanoid Skulls were important and how could they had been? Clones? did the Engineers Clone Humanoids, this is one thing i thought about before the Movies release, or Dr Shaw... did David manage to Gift her Child-birth? But how, would he not need a Male Seed? Then we ask did he obtain this from a Engineer as the Engineer Anatomy Drawings must have came from a fresher corpse as opposed to he infected ones outside.
The other option indeed is Female Engineers... now when i saw the Movie i noticed that while the Set Photos showed a number of Females, the movie scene it looked like the Males out numbered the Females.
The Engineers Culture is very Ancient, and many Ancient Mankind ones, do have the Females having less freedom and not partaking in events as the Males would (unless the Females are of Royal or Noble Decent) and so the welcoming of the returning Engineer ship may indeed have taken place by a majority of Male Engineers, the Females maybe keeping closer to the Cathedral.
After the Bombardment we see the Engineers trying to get to the Cathedral. I will thus SAFELY ASSUME the Cathedral offered some kind of Protection, and some Engineers had managed to get inside and this not be effected by the Bombardment.
As these beings are Humanoid, i would assume they need Food and Water, and i would assume the Cathedral may have had limited supplies and its only a matter of time that Starvation takes its Toll.... and leads to the Survivors being too weak to prevent David having his way with them.
I feel the same thing is what happened to Dr Shaw, she was infected yet her Hair Growth seems to show she survived for 6-12 Months, and i wonder if she looked weak due to Nutrition and having to Ration her Food and Drink.
I would assume as David cared for Dr Shaw, that after the Crash, he would advice Shaw she has to remain on the Juggernaught as its not safe outside, and it would take a number of months before it was safe.
This allows David to Confine her to the Juggernaught, and maybe build and take her stuff to make her a shelter... This also allows David to explore the City and do what ever he wants.
Eventually yes maybe Dr Shaw may leave the Juggernaught, we really dont know what happened its open for debate, but there are a number of things that would have happened to change their relationship.... we have to wonder how many experiments had David conducted before Shaw found out? Was she aware of the Experiments by David or did he start these after her Death etc?
Another option for Hosts is the crashed Mother/Docking Ship, could Engineers had been on this and were they incapacitated after the crash?
As far as the Crash, Wayne Haagg i think did mention both ships had a Dust Up, and they crashed... I am not sure about the Landing...
A interesting clue would be how does the Mother Ship Crash, yet the Juggernaught is intact? And the Big Clue is where the Covenant crew enter.... it appears they enter the Juggernaught via the open Cargo Hold that the Bombardment had taken place, and how this Hold looked overgrown with Vegetation and Water means it mist have scraped along the Mountain.
The only way Dr Shaw would have tried to fly the ship after surviving the Bombardment, would be if the ships Cargo Hold remained open, or it had opened up again when Dr Shaw crashed the ship (IF SHE DID)
so a number of contradicting clues are about, which makes it hard to find a Answer to what happened and leaves it all the more open for debates.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"If she was to peer through the Windows at any point after, she would not be able to see what is in the passage way where the Engineer and Trilobite are, all she would be able to do is see whats in the main Room."
No one said she could see around a corner into that passageway. Below would be her field of view from the window.
"As far as the Airlock being closed after she leaves, yes its open after she jumps out, and it was open when the Lifeboat Crashed and so the other way the door works would be that the Engineer locked the door after he entered too."
He closed the outer door in the deleted scene, Just as Shaw did. Being an airlock, that would be the procedure - close the outer door before opening inner, and vise versa, unless that was over ridden.
"But my point about outside is where Dr Shaw was lying down, she would in No Way be able to see into the Main Room"
She would just stand up and walk/climb back to the inner airlock door and look through the window.
"My point was assuming the Door was closed then there is only a little Ledge BLUE Arrow that she would have to stand on and try and peer through"
Even if the outer door was closed, all she had to do was open it. It was not closing behind her though. That is very clear in the movie. The real reason the outer doors never open or close from outside is because of the way the exterior set was designed. They can't. They have nowhere to go :)
"But again the problem here is that the Door was closed when she made a run for it, which means the Door either Automatically Closed after the Engineer Entered or he had indeed Closed to the Door behind."
The Engineer closed the outer door when he came in before opening the inner door. That is the way an airlock works. In the deleted scene the inner door opens and we see the Engineer inside the airlock, just having pushed the button on the keypad. The outer door is closed behind him. The inner door closes automatically a few seconds after he walks into the main room. That inner airlock door is the only door we ever see automatically close.
"we can safely assume the Repel Gear was on the ATV"
I thought that may be the case as well, but the cargo area of the ATV looks empty. She could have also gotten it from the airlock lockers, or the RT-01 transport parked outside the pyramid.
"So she would have to take a closer look, and we can assume she does and finds them both incapacitated... she would likely not be aware of the Chest Buster Embryo... to her it would appear they are both Dead... i would assume maybe she would Prod them with the Axe or something and then find out for sure they appear Dead."
Interestingly, the birth scene at the end of Prometheus implies the trilobite is not yet dead. It is no longer laying on top of the Engineer. It has mostly moved back through the door into the medpod room. By the time the deacon stands up, it is completely gone, so presumably it has slowly crawled away to die.
"So i think Logically it would appear Dr Shaw had left LV-223 with David in TWO Parts and then spend Months drifting in Space before she decided to repair him."
That is what I took away from it. I don't think there is any way she would have reassembled him at that point. It would have taken a very long time before she would ever trust him enough to do that.
I guess you might be right about Shaw trying to escape from David in the juggernaut and crashes. David has been insane (if you can say that about a synthetic) from the beginning. Indirectly he murders Holloway by tricking pathogen into him, and he knows that Shaw is intimate with him and he doesn’t care about what can happen to her. He’s just curious but callous. He is already disappointed with both humans and engineers and the final blow might have been Shaw’s rejection of him (David think’s he loves her but has a synthetic really emotions)? Let’s create something better! So, “To create, one must first destroy”.
If David and Shaw really spent 6 months (Shaw’s hair length) or so on the juggernaut before she entered the hypersleep chamber, she would most likely have a room of her own with personal belongings (the photograph of her and Holloway etc). But why spend half a year on the ship before leaving for the engineer homeworld? Shouldn't they have found it pretty quickly on the holographic map? For a scientist, it would have been illogical to linger, spending food and water just because she’s uncertain if she can trust David? He fooled her anyway . . .
What about the stuffed neos and xenos (deacons?) that are lined up in David’s lab? How did he manage to create those if there were no hosts around, Michelle?
Furthermore, the petrified egg would probably not just be "lying around". :) Probably, the cathedral was their place of cult where they might have worshipped prominent ancestors (thus, the heads), and perhaps also where sacrifices were made? Outside the cathedral, there are buddha-like statues of offering and a landing device. Perhaps abducted humanoids (including humans) were brought here to be sacrificed (LV-223 just being where they experimented and manufactured the pathogen (and possibly also xeno-eggs)?
In Alien: Awakening we will probably get some more answers (apparently, the engineers weren't all dead)?
On the hair length I think its a red herring and about discontinuity. I am sure the repair happened relatively quickly (thats the implication of her wearing the suit still) and then moving into a more relaxed vibe for cryo sleep. There is passage of time but to assume 6 months simply on hair length when other elements (clothing) is to put to much weight on the matter.
What I think this discussion indicates to me and reflects on the notion of the unreliable narrator is it was used as a plot device to move the real time film through as quickly as possible.
The 2nd Act is where the years of delay through the Paglan/Green drafts is writ large on the screen. There are so many ways they could have explored David and Elizabeth made their journey the core of the movie arrived at a devastated planet and found out the truth of this dead civilisation as well as move David and Elizabeth through the most powerful journey.
Act 1 - The Crossing fully developed including Elizabeth confronting David over Charlie, ratcheting up the tension between them so we and Elizabeth doubt whether Davids redemptive care for Shaw is real and always wondering if she has retained the effects of the mutagen.
Act 11 - Arrival -The Engineer answers including the origin of the Xenomorph (ancient) and what LV 223 meant (The space jockey was the key engineer on another and more personal mission attempting to save their creations where the Eggs activate and infect it, the beacon a warning to any surviving Engineers). A perfect balance between story and horror as they uncover creature mutations and feel under threat themselves.
Act 111 Revelation that the Gods destroyed the Engineers to protect mankind from the fallen angels (uplifting), death of Shaw where David desperately tries to save her from the mutagen and fails she pursues suicide through sacrifice and David in search of his humanity switches himself off (A dark ending).
The final page of the movie could be the return of the tear drop ship who return to their seeding planet and remove the remains of David and Shaw.
Everything answered no more movies and the Alien Universe has some much needed overall clarity and the Alien Origin is clear a particular development of the Pathogen which the Engineers tried to remove and quarantine and hope in the future to control and failed.
Of course the problem with all that is you do not get your troped Alien horror flick. Signal/diversion/land/it goes wrong/escape/its on board/heroine blasts it out of the airlock.
AC did this well by just having David there. I understand if some wanted to know more about Shaw but I think that they made the right decision.
I also wonder what he meant by saying the he learned about their ways (their probably means the Engineers). They could have explained a bit more what happened to Shaw but it was alright the way they did it in the movie.
David seems to be a curious android so it is possible that he looked around at LV-223 to see if he could gather more information about them before leaving the planet, this is what I would have done at least.
Nah, a David and Shaw movie would have been boring. I am happy that they didn’t go that route.
Big Dave: About laziness and lack in details it could be that they (Scott for example) are more concerned about how they story is built and how it flows in general. Because they think that the over-all story is the most important thing they might think that it is no problem if they miss some details which some of the fans might find strange. This could be a possible explanation. Some of the over-sights are things that I don’t have a problem with as long as we get answers that make sense and a story with characters that are interesting. I guess that this comes down to what the studio wants to show it versus what kind of expectations those that watch the movies have. My guess is that the fans are more concerned about this compared to the studio that wants to make money.
@Thoughts & Dreams
For me a movie with David and Shaw pursuing their curious and unusual relationship and finding out the truth of Paradise would have been utterly riveting compared to the routine Covenant with its troped 1st and 3rd act of Covenant and the muddled 2nd act.
However I do appreciate you do not relate to the performance of Shaw the innocent faith driven heroine of Prometheus who gathered herself through everything she went through(the recognition of her naivety,the death of her boyfriend, the caesarian) to lead and plead with Janek to pursue his suicidal attack on the juggernaut which saved the lives of 6,000,000,000 souls.
Shaws quest for answers and assumption that the star maps were an invitation were nothing compared to the hubris of Sir Peter Weyland believing he would secure immortality. For me Shaw was the only one responding to the facts by the time they woke the Engineer. It is also worth pointing out, by Ridley offering us Shaw's childhood experiences, through the dream visor intervention with David, the back ground to character motivation of the person Noomi was playing was entirely understandable and was something that could work its way into the next movie, the search for Paradise and her reaction to finding out the truth of the Engineers, which would have made for very interesting drama. "I want to go where they came from" was a very exciting prospect compared to David re triggers the beast that is cooked.
The point of this thread began with trying to understand what the crossing means and has been extended into the multiple and competing interpretations of what happened. If you take two characters on the next leg of the journey and make one plot point significant at least twice, in order to meet the needs of the audience you should put that drama clearly and with out ambiguity on the screen.
That would be drama and tragedy in the classical sense (with accompanying catharsis). :) The conflict (which needs a resolution) would then be centred on David and Shaw (love/trust/madness etc). There are quite a few allusions to Frankenstein (fitting with the continuation of the title: “The Modern Prometheus”) where Elizabeth (the name can’t be a coincidence, can it?) is in love with the mad scientist and perishes from his creation. Interesting also that Daniels takes over the conflict (from Shaw) with David, and that the ambiguity within David (good/bad) moves into two characters (Walter/David). Instead of one three-dimensional character, we get two two-dimensional, as it were.
Personally, I never considered Shaw getting the “infection”. Holloway was exposed to the pathogen and mutated, so Shaw received the mutated form of his seed (not the pathogen itself). In what way would the space jockey “save their creations”, Michelle? Why bring weapons of mass destruction on his “personal mission”? Couldn’t he just have been struck down by the deadly cargo on his way to eradicate mankind (which was the purpose of the loaded juggernaut on LV-223)? This would be their punishment for playing gods (hubris) - their own creation is their downfall (as in Frankenstein)?
In a way I think it’s the right way to go, ending the focus on Shaw. Alien has become a saga, spanning over many years and generations (even millennia in a broader sense). To get the sense of a larger spectrum, dealing with the eternal, ultimate questions, you need to move the relay-race baton forward, as it were. The Alien Universe and the problems and questions remain, but new characters tackle them: Shaw, Daniels, a new heroine on The Covenant, Ripley, Newt . . . ?
Thanks for picking up on my allusions which were a nod to classical drama and tragedy. Those were just musings whilst I was having coffee the other day.
Several points come from your interesting reply.
What the Alien series desperately needs is a coherent sense of development where the themes reach some kind of resolution and "Outcome". Why people club the first three together is they had a connective theme - Ripley's transformational journey and sacrifice not all of the films were consistent in other ways but the three had a back bone a spine of a story.
Prometheus was intended to create a broad creation mythos into which the Alien Pathogen intervened and out of which came Xeno strain outcomes including the creature.
Covenant interrupts that enquiry and makes Davids journey the back bone out of which the creature is created. Shaw belongs (your right about her name of course) to the broad mythos story and is the mediator of that story from man kinds perspective. She was the symbol for faith based exploration of our origins. That she was barren and made fertile and gave birth on christmas day is quite obviously a riff on the Annunciation. The message is have faith and wait and see what happens, she was as much to blame for the disastrous outcome as Sir Peter, who not only wanted his answers but to cheat them.
By killing off Elizabeth that weight of narrative momentum has been sunk (Mankind and robot co dependent seeking answers with different agendas) and we are in start again mode with only Tennessee possibly surviving the Covenant story.
All we have is David as the unreliable narrator and we move toward Origae 6 knowing diddly squat about anything other than what Ridley has said in interviews and what we have already guessed. I always accepted Damon's view the Black Goo is a Xeno Mutagen but I still have no certain understanding of the meaning of the prologue and all that means for the Engineers.
My reason therefore for offering a classical drama for the follow up was so that we could explore the mythos and find out so much more from two conflicting personalities in a Co Dependent Relationship.
Just finally on Elizabeth and the impact of the insemination by Charlie and resultant Trilobite. This is science fiction and if you look at many scenes after the caesarian she continuously suffers and in the Crossing she is sweating. That COULD have been used to build an end game for her where in the follow up she finds all her answers and then like the Acolyte at the beginning of the story returns herself to the earth and ingests the catalyser (which they find) bringing creationism full circle and cleansing the mutagen for her. Shaw's sacrifice (in order to create first you must destroy) can then be seen as her undoing the interventions of both the fallen angel engineers and Peter Weyland and restoring the creative intent of the Gods. David finally understands the capacity of grace of mankind and finds wisdom and can see his redemption in this and switches himself off and in the final scene of the movie the teardrop ship returns and takes Davids remains away leaving behind technology that builds on Shaw's re creational act and leads the to the terraforming of Paradise (something in early versions of the story they were able to do).
However the cat out of the bag is the corrupted space jockey who lies busted on LV 426 ready for Cain. Incidentally given I was and still am thinking aloud, making that mission simply this Jockey and his particular weapon he created on course for somewhere and he gets busted makes sense and is better than my idea.