Close
Sign in with your E-Mail & Password

Log in to view your personalized notifications across Scified!

Alien Discussion Forums

The Shaw/David relationship

7,167 Views11 RepliesAdd A Reply
Forum Topic

unchienne

OvomorphMember12 XPJun-04-2017 4:20 PM

For me, the David/Shaw relationship and conclusion on Covenant is what propelled it beyond Prometheus and into a film I really enjoyed. For a while, I could not understand why David believed that these aliens were a perfect species. But there is a scene in Covenant where he mentioned that he was not made to serve and that opening scene where he is brought into existence and has this moment with his creator only to be given the lowly task of making tea. What he finds so disgusting about both races is the idea that they want to subjugate and shape their creations. The xenomorphs have no such desires. One might say that he could have just reverted earth back to a primarily state in simply removing humanity, but he also wanted the role of creator as that was the one thing that he could not do and he needed it to justify his believe that he was superior in every way. He sees himself as a god and a god must create. His sacrifice of Shaw, though horrible to even imagine, brought a complexity to the character that is fascinating. Reminds me a lot of Hannibal Lecter and the attraction to the morbidity of his mind as well as the strange way he interprets relationships. I believe David thought his sacrifice of Shaw elevated her somehow and brought about a union...mother and father...in the only way there could be one, seeing as he is inorganic. His vision and her flesh combined to create life.

Anyone else have a different interpretation?

11 Responses to The Shaw/David relationship

SpellboundSynapses

OvomorphMember55 XPJun-04-2017 11:44 PM

I do believe his love for her was genuine, but like Walter implied, David is buggy. He's too smart and too idiosyncratic. 

His love manifests in distorted ways, which is actually something that is an inherent theme of ALIEN, ie. nightmares made of distorted human sexual organs figuratively raping people to death. 

I think the comparison to Hannibal Lecter is valid. Both are manipulative psychopaths, but still capable of Love and of appreciating art and creation.

ElectricAve

OvomorphMember12 XPJun-05-2017 12:29 AM

I love your idea, but I don't really see any "David-Shaw-relationship-and-conclusion" in this movie. I just see the exact same David from Prometheus, eager to move forward with his dream of destroying mankind, after a frustrating 10-year standstill.

The only times we see him emoting over Shaw are when he's hanging out with Walter. I think it's because Walter was the only thing standing in the way of him boarding the ship. When Walter finally tells him "You know I can't let you leave this place", David realized that his plan A had failed, so he moved on to plan B and stabbed him in the neck.

As far as Shaw is concerned, I don't think she left any kind of impression on David. Or at least, I don't see any evidence of it in Covenant, or in Prometheus, for that matter. He seems really excited at the end when she puts her cross back on, and he remarks "After all that's happened, you still believe, don't you?". But it's not because he's finally found someone who can make a leap of faith and acknowledge that he has an imagination, or a heart, or a soul, or anything lofty like that. He hates people and couldn't care less what anyone thinks of him ^^ lol. He's excited that she still believes, because gullible people are the most useful kinds of people, and he's going to "play her like a fiddle" after she gets his head back on (the violin girl playing in the lifeboat at the end).

I gotta admit, I don't really feel sympathetic to him anymore, knowing that his "pain" is purely a matter of ego (he's forced to be servile, yet he's superior). Weyland didn't give him a heart, and he doesn't see the point of having one (his idea of the perfect organism).

For me so far, Covenant is just a simple nuts & bolts installment to the franchise. It exists to connect the goo in Prometheus to the xenomorph in Alien, with David as the vehicle - but that's it. It's like a filler story that doesn't really have a heart of its own, it just exists between two other, more original stories. I liked it, but I expected a little more than a Data/Lore knock-off after waiting 5 years =[

nero

OvomorphMember11 XPJun-05-2017 2:28 AM

I think OP is on to something.  Prometheus and Covenant are pretty sloppy in my opinion, but there is context for alot of the art work and stuff.

Shaw's decapitated head alive and resuscitated is telling.  Didn't she 'save' David?  Did David think that was weird?  There is a parallel there that I think could give clearer thought processes to David rather than, 'bad robot', as gruesome as keeping alive a human head.  Didn't Shaw rescue his head and rebuild him? 

You could understand that he didn't think he was doing anything wrong in this context, because Shaw did the same for him...and he regained a body somehow.

I dislike how he is a 'bad robot' in both Prometheus and Covenant, when it would make more sense that he was trying to return the favor to Shaw, in the most logically and gruesome fashion possible.

I like the idea of David being the inception of the xenomorph, but I really hate how they are going about it.  It would make more sense if David just figured all this out after Shaw's decapitation, and his attempts to resuscitate her, without understanding the implications of what he was doing, until much later.

I dunno, I hate how Ridley said Prometheus was 3 films, and then Prometheus was barely anything, and he backpedaled into Alien:Covenant being the first of 6 films?!

There are some good ideas in here, and Scott still has the best eye in the industry...but these are some stupid half-baked stories we are getting...

 

Edit: Ridley should be a visual director, and give up the writing and directing to someone else.  He hates Aliens, and has decried it at every opportunity...but Covenant is a poor man's version of Aliens with some stuff borrowed from Alien and other films.

Is Ridley trolling everybody, or is he that far gone?

Starlogger

ChestbursterMember907 XPJun-05-2017 7:42 AM

Very intriguing thoughts, unchienne.

ElectricAve

OvomorphMember12 XPJun-05-2017 8:26 AM

I remember Lindelof saying in interviews that Prometheus was supposed to have 2 story paths - one that led directly to Alien, and one which would pursue the story of the Engineers, & that the sequel to Prometheus would follow David & Shaw on the second path.

I think what happened is that certain criticisms of Prometheus eventually got to Ridley, and he decided to go the safer route instead. Either that or they had trouble sussing out a story around David & Shaw, and decided to dump it for something that was easier to write (or maybe a combination of those).

Either way, I feel like what we got was way less than it could have been, because even if Shaw did mean anything to David, we never got to see it - not even in the form of flashbacks, or split-second hallucinations (like maybe he's cutting his hair, and he sees Shaw in the mirror instead of himself, or when he goes to kiss Daniels, for a split second it's actually her). They could have done small things like that to at least suggest that she meant something to him and that he was mentally deteriorating. But what I see is just a clean-cut villain "unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality." I don't think that's all he could've been, but if I'm wrong about him, and he had all this development off-screen, then I think it's really lazy of Ridley to leave all of his character development off-screen, that's all I have to say about David at this point lol ^^

And as for Prometheus and Covenant in general, it just makes me pessimistic that space-horror (or this franchise at least) can ever be more than campy nihilistic eye-candy lol. If you think about it, the original Alien was all three of those, but it was also more. It had atmosphere, realism/naturalism, sensitivity, drama, suspense, etc. We got to spend time with the characters and settings. There were no cartoonish action sequences, and the characters behaved as though the situations they found themselves in were actually happening to them (one of Lindelof's weaknesses).

In short, it's a storytelling masterpiece, and I think they just need to try harder in the sequels w/regards to realism and atmosphere and all that.

BigDave

DeaconMember10325 XPJun-05-2017 8:45 AM

Here is my take on it... as i made a Topic like this a while back and i but my reply again to a similar topic yesterday.

====================

Who knows what happened to Shaw... some say she died due to the infection from Prometheus...however Shaw's Hair in the Crossing Prologue has grown so long that depending person to person would be 6-12 Months Hair Growth.... its Likely Shaw was reluctant to Rebuild David and it took Months and Months before he gained her Trust....

Shaw thus could not have been badly affected from the event with Holloway, its likely she looked ill because of a Lack of a Good Nutritional Diet.

It would appear that David saw Shaw's kindness towards him as the way he had longed to be accepted by Mankind.  

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn
Is just to love and be loved in return"

Nature Boy Lyrics (AC Trailer Track)

so its likely David grew very Fond of Dr Shaw, so much that he fell in love with her... in more than a Platonic Fashion and i will assume David had even tried to make Advances, which caused Shaw to Reject him, and feel Creeped out... David did not take this Rejection well and ended up killing her, he felt hurt and that indeed the greatest thing he will ever learn is not to Love and be Loved in Return, his rejection by Shaw in his eyes made him think All Humans are not worthy and never appreciate him.

He then regretted what happened.... it destroyed him, Shaw wanted her answers, he knew this would be  a waste of time that would most likely lead to Her Death and his Destruction.. so he had to kill the Engineers off, he found out what they are like anyway.  So he denied Shaw her Answers.. this is the only Thing Shaw had Left... She had nothing else.

*Mother and Father Dead.

*Her Fiancee Holloway Dead.

*She has no Children and Cant.

All she had left was to know WHY these Engineers Created us and WHY they wanted to destroy us, surely they Nurtured us for Thousands of Years... WHAT HAPPENED and so WHY did they Changed their minds...  She would have been prepared for the risk of going to where THEY came from, and even if it meant She would DIE i think as long as she FIRST got her ANSWERS then she would be fine.

But David could not allow this... He Loved Shaw, she was the only Human to make him feel equal, and important at least in his Eyes.... he could not allow his Companion Dr Shaw to DIE

But in Protecting her by Killing the Engineers, he had TAKEN Away the One thing Shaw had Left.... Her ANSWERS She wanted.

David would have been very fond of Shaw in more than a Platonic way... Fassbender said they was like a Married Couple.. at least in his eyes.

He may have saw them as a Couple and not Friends... and from everything he gained from Peter Weyland what makes a person Important is their Legacy... and Creation is just that, it leaves behind your Legacy and in part is what Weyland thought made him a GOD.

The whole Tale from Prometheus has been about Creator Creates, then Creation Rebels and Sub-Creates and the Sub-Creation Rebels and Sub-Creates.  This started with the Elders it ended with the creation of David

David can-not create or bare Children and neither can Dr Shaw, but if David could CREATE then he would have a Legacy.

So after killing Dr Shaw... David regrets and feels great despair... but he sees that he can use Dr Shaw to Create his own Creation... from Dr Shaws Body he can Create Perfection and so Shaw's Life would not be in Vain.... through her Death he could give rise to her CHILDREN and his Creation...

Davids Creation is thus his Child and Dr Shaws Child.

This is why David referred to Dr Shaw as his Greatest Achievement.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10325 XPJun-05-2017 8:51 AM

@ElectricAve

They could not have expanded on stuff due to the limited time that FOX would allow for the Movie, and they had so much to cover.

In Hindsight they should have at least cut down the Xenomorph scenes...

Had Oram get infected latter on, and then they take him to the Covenant Ship, and then at the end have him Chest Busted and then the Xenomorph gets loose on the ship.

Cutting back the First Xeno/Chest Buster to latter and only have One Chest Buster/Xeno on the Covenant would have worked better... replace the other Xeno attack with Neomorph Attack and then also add 30 Minutes to the movie, where a extra 5-8 Minutes dedicated to the Xeno on the Covenant.

Extra 10-15 Minutes to David and any interactions with the Crew and explanations for why he was there etc.  Then 3-5 minutes extended Neomorph Action. In  addition to having a extra few minutes added due to cutting the Xenomorph Scenes.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

DeaconMember10325 XPJun-05-2017 8:52 AM

I am thinking i need to think about doing a BigDave Re-write of Alien Covenant LOL then i never finished my Prometheus one too.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

suwhited

FacehuggerMember355 XPJun-05-2017 9:57 AM

@BigDave. Yes.

I say we get some posters on here to rewrite this into two movies...Once of us is bound to get it right...Yeah...That is how much material needs to be covered.

I sure hope FOX doesn't beat us down over this...Maybe we can "pay the rent" by saying AVPR was a great movie...

MonsterZero

XenomorphMember1305 XPJun-05-2017 10:05 AM

@BigDave......I'm far more interested in how you (or anyone)can link Prometheus to Alien.

Rewrites are okay....but I'd rather read a new take on the future.

Gralen

FacehuggerMember139 XPJun-05-2017 11:47 AM

That Alien:Davenant part was complety unnecessary and too much, imo.

An android which kills a species which has several millions of years advantage in technology and physiology.

That is the real part which inteferes with the predecessor and destroyed a lot of hopes.

     
Add A Reply
Log in to Post
Enter Your E-Mail
Enter Your Password

Stay Logged In
Scified Network
Godzilla-Movies.comHosted Community
JurassicWorld3.netHosted Community
Alien-Covenant.comHosted Community
AliensVersus
Predator.net
Hosted Community
Predator4-Movie.comHosted Community
New Alien: Covenant Forum Topics
Highest Forum Ranks Unlocked
BigDave
BigDave
52% To Next Rank
Deacon
Thoughts_Dreams
Thoughts_Dreams
80% To Next Rank
Neomorph
Resurgence
Resurgence
87% To Next Rank
Facehugger
Jonesy
Jonesy
77% To Next Rank
Facehugger
setaverde
setaverde
63% To Next Rank
Facehugger
Latest Alien Fandom Activity
Get this Prometheus sweater!
Alien Sweater

Alien: Covenant is a sequel to 2012's Prometheus as well as a prequel to 1979's ALIEN. Alien fans looking to know more about Alien: Covenant should check back often. Alien-Covenant.com is an information resource for film enthusiasts looking to learn more about the upcoming blockbuster Alien: Covenant. Providing the latest official and accurate information on Alien: Covenant, this website contains links to every set video, viral video, commercial, trailer, poster, movie still and screenshot available. This site is an extension of the Alien & Predator Fandom on Scified - a central hub for fans of Alien and Prometheus looking to stay up-to-date on the latest news. Images used are property of their respective owners. Alien: Covenant, Prometheus and its associated names, logos and images are property of 20th Century Fox and are in no way owned by Scified and its related entities. This is a fan-created website for the purpose of informing and exciting fans for Alien: Covenant's release. If you have any questions about this site, its content or the Scified Network in general, feel free to contact Scified directly.

Scified is an entertainment media network covering the latest news on the most popular, upcoming science fiction movies, games and television. All content is property of Scified.com unless otherwise stated. Images and names of content we promote, discuss, review or report are property of their respective owners. Scified is independantly owned and operated by a team of dedicated sci-fi movie fans, who strive to provide the best information and community experience for other like-minded sci-fi movie enthusiasts.

© 2022 Scified.com