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What really killed those beings on Paradise?

What really killed those beings on Paradise?

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BigDave

TrilobiteMember9895 XPMar-11-2017 3:05 PM

I think it's time maybe we look at what really could have killed those beings (Engineers or related) on Paradise?

I always felt the Scene from the earlier shots we had looked more like some Ancient Sodom and Gomorrah type of Event, a Punishment against those beings on Paradise for doing something to maybe upset their Creators or Hierarchy?

We have the other theory that David Drops the Black Goo on them via dropping Urns on them, but we see no proof of Urns, and then how come the Juggernaught Crashes into the Mountains after this?   The 4Chan leak claims however this was the case.

I beg to differ... and now we have more clues via latest Trailer i think its time to maybe discuss alternatives.

Clearly Prometheus showed us the Black Goo either Genetically Mutates/Evolved Organic Life into a Hybrid or it maybe also leads to their Genetic Structure being broken down, i guess it depends how the Goo interacted with the Target/Victim.

These Char-grilled/Burnt Beings look like a Scene from Pompeii only they are more detailed and do not look like they have been covered in ASH, they look Scorched...  Its like a Biblical Event like Sodom and Gomorrah where indeed Lots Wife looked back after fleeing those Cities and she was turned into a Pillar of Salt.

Prometheus had a lot of Biblical Themes, but maybe we need to not consider them too literally. Indeed we are off to Paradise where in the Biblical Sense we had the Cradle of Creation, the Garden of Eden and where Man was created.

But Adam had Sinned and Eve too and they was cast out of the Garden and Cast out of Paradise..... Now in Context to the Franchise we are shown this Paradise World is a separate place it is not on Earth at all.  It however is where maybe Creation had came from, because if those Engineers played a role in our Creation and if they came from Paradise which is were the Covenant Lands,  could other Biblical Events loosely apply?

So as we have seen what the Black Goo does in Prometheus.. can the Black Goo do this?

Can it Mummify/Petrify Engineers?

Can the Urns be released with such Force to Knock over Stone Monuments and Cause Serve Damage them?

Or is there perhaps another far more Ancient Event at hand?

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

79 Responses to What really killed those beings on Paradise?

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9895 XPMar-20-2017 3:53 PM

It really is limitless near enough to explain the whole situation, that maybe we have to go back and look at the Ancient Astronaut theory and Paradise Connections.

Is this Cathedral a Weapon? I would say it would be unlikely unless its aim is a Reset Switch...  a Fail-safe built for the purpose of eradicating life.

It could be some kind of Terra-forming Device?  That can be used to Cause Great Disaster, we have many Conspiracies on Earth about  the HAARP Project, and also concerns of CERN's Experiments with the LHC and what if it went wrong?

There are theories regarding the Purpose of Ancient Pyramids in Egypt too.

Potentially if this was used as a Weapon (even if it was not the Original Purpose of this Building) then Potentially it could be used against the Juggernaught too.

There has to be some Engineers or other beings that survived this Event be it Ancient prior to David's Arrival or a Event after.

The beauty of the Plot Prometheus was setting up, is its open to a lot of debate...

This being we see Cloaked and Walking past those Bodies could be David or it could be some other being who destroyed these Engineers/Beings and then held up in that Cathederal for David and Shaw to come across down the line.

We have to Remember there is NO Point... in David and Shaw arriving for Answers if there are NO Survivors or beings, or David kills them all before...  Well maybe there is little Point.

As David could maybe get answers from the Ruins of their Civilization.  But we have to ask where did those beings in Davids workshop come from?  It appears he has at least Experimented on TWO such beings.

But they could indeed had came from the Juggernaught, but we have to assume that Shaw would want to wake them up and get Answers that would save her having to go to Paradise.

How would this work out though?  A COVENANT may have been reached at some point between David, Shaw and some beings either on Paradise or Stowed away in the Juggernaught.

But the "as far as we know" could relate to Native Worms getting on-board, or more unlikely the Deacon or Hammerpedes.

There has to be a starting point for David to experiment... and with No Test Subjects due to Ancient Disaster or even David bringing Hell with him, would not allow David to experiment on many lifeforms...  as he would only have SHAW or maybe ENGINEERS on the Juggernaught.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9895 XPMar-20-2017 4:05 PM

Paradise looks devoid of any kind of Technology apart from that Cathedral... those beings are dressed in more Ancient Robes.

If they in general posses no Technology as such, this would explain the reasons they could not defend against a Attack from David if this is what happened.  The other explanation is if they was all destroyed in some Ancient Event before they had Advanced to this Level.

But the LV-223 Engineers are Advanced, the Seeding Ship that dropped off the Sacrificial Engineer was Advanced.

The LV-223 Engineers are referred to as Fallen Angels, this means they Rebelled against members of their own kind and had gone against the Will and Plans of their Hierarchy or creators.

But in context of Paradise maybe these LV-223 Engineers are a higher race, well above those beings on Paradise, and they are in effect the Guardians of Paradise just as the Cherubim Angels was in the Bible and Paradise Lost Poem

If these beings on Paradise were kept just as Ancient as Ancient Mankind,  and they was created for a Agenda, and Purpose and they was visited by a more Advanced Race or Creators, who held just a few Special Places of Worship where they would Store Knowledge and Technology while the rest of the Civilization is kept in a less Advanced State

And so like the Egyptian theories that some Temples and Pyramids was a Advanced Technology used by the Gods, while the rest of the Population are limited by Ancient Clothing and Technology... could we not be seeing this at PLAY HERE?

I am trying to find ways to cover any possible Holes to the Plot... and indeed if this World was a Ancient Advanced Race, then why was David Stuck?

Where was the other Engineers Ships?

If this place was visited and used by a more Advanced Race/Creators or even Hierarchy and this place was merely visited just like Ancient Mankind, this would explain why David can not take escape, if the only Ship he has is the One that is Crashed on the surface.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9895 XPMar-20-2017 4:19 PM

I am open to other suggestions though...

So as far as the Black Goo, i cant see no proof of bombing, and if i am to ignore the look of those bodies...   When i consider the Urns and looking at where could the Juggernauts load them and fire them, i find no real evidence of how this can be done.

The only explanation i have then, which would explain why we see no Urns on the Ground is this..

The Urns are loaded into some Mechanism that Activates them and the resulting Black Goo is then sent down some kind of system that then Sprays the Stuff, and the Urns that are used are then placed into another area as the ship loads up more.

This could allow them to re-use the Canisters.

I still fail how this would have a effect as we see to those Engineers, unless this is the intended use and when the weapon is used like this we get this result.

However when tampering with the Urns on their own we get a different effect.

HOWEVER...

That Cathedral and how these beings all seem like they was heading towards it, seems to hint to me this could be the result of the Disaster, the GOLD Device on Top looks like Technology and i know GOLD is a Good Conductor for Electricity, to me the whole thing seems like this Device could have cause some kind of Electro-magnetic Plasma Shock Wave.

I however do think maybe i am trying to connect the Sources information to also fit into whats going on, which it does seem to fit to the movie very very well.

But alas.... i have no way to Guarantee they was correct...

The Alternative is the 4Chan explanation... and IMDB which both contradict parts to each other.. LOL

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Roger55

ChestbursterMember805 XPMar-20-2017 4:59 PM

I am convinced starting from story-plot coming from Prometheus, and have a firm bais in fact that engineers are closely linked with the biblical belief in Hell, or the Anti-christ, for me they are definitely fallen angels, evil beings, their religion is aligned with the evocative and amorphous evil, an unnamed entity until now, everyone can realize the planet surrounding, overwhelming and dark. 
The iconography in Prometheus was definitely Satanic, [a crucified Xenomorph], Gothic style included; Covenant (in the context of the film) I think i can guess we ll see many Satanic elements, we have the first wink of the director with a very sbliminal language connecting to the biblical passage (the Eucharist) at Last Supper.

Ati

PraetorianMember3378 XPMar-21-2017 3:24 PM

Michelle:

"One of the suggested reasons for the Black Goo being responsible for the devastation is the leaking of the mutagen when the Juggernaut crashed. I have never accepted it actually crashed and it is notable in the still from the more recent trailer that the huge trees which appeared to be damaged by that possibility are no longer in the shot. That suggests to me the feedback from test audiences suggested the shot sent out the wrong message and it has been cleaned up to show the Juggernaut in one piece sat on the ledge. There are some extremely modest trees which are shown as rotten but the overall impact of those few seconds leaves a different message."

Michelle, I think the scene of the crashland has not changed. In the second trailer (the second image) we see the ship from a different angle, from the 'forest' - tree on the right, tree on the left. Added to this, we are much closer to the ship. I think there are some broken trees (in the background) in the second trailer's still as well.

First trailer:

Second trailer:

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9895 XPMar-22-2017 2:10 AM

Indeed ATI the second shot is taken closer to the Juggernaught i can make a image of where the 2nd shot is taken in context to the first if you would like.

@Roger55

Indeed i feel loosely yes Paradise Lost will tie in.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9895 XPMar-22-2017 2:41 AM

I was going to make a new thread, or place this on another related to the Cathedral but i think it would go here just as  well

Here is a Edit of the Best Quality of this Shot..

A) I want you to notice we see what appear to be Gold like Etchings and like Reflective Materials on some of these objects, why would they be Gold and Facing the Central Dome with the Gold Device on Top?

Could this indeed react together to produce some kind of Energy Type Event?

B) This sitting Statues are Facing away from the Dome in the center, and they look like some depictions/statues of Buddha in these Buddha Statues the God is making a Offering.  The Statues in Alien Covenant are similar to other Ancient Cultures to.

But it appears they are making a Offering, a Gift Maybe? or is this a similar Offering like the Elder Engineer when he offered the Sacrificial Engineer the Sacrificial Cup... and so does this have a Sacrificial Element to what this place is?  Or a Place of Offering?

C) These are Giant Obelisk and we see the one to the Left has been Toppled, we have to ask what can cause this?  Surely not a Bombardment of Black Goo. Never-mind a Spraying.

D) The Dome Cathedral looks very much like Byzantine Churches, especially the Hagia Sophia Basilica a Basilica is considered a very important Church and Place of Worship, and in the Byzantine Era.... was when Christianity took hold.  So in context to Alien Covenant this is a place of Great Importance and Worship to these beings Gods or Hierarchy.

E) We have the Golden Device above the Dome Basilica and i think this looks like some kind of Technology and maybe it interacts with those objects A and why are these objects all around this Dome... what purpose could this form?

NOW... cast your eyes to the Red Line... These Objects (A) and the Dome (D) with the Golden Device on top (E) are all set behind those Statues of Offering (B)

There are NO DEAD BEINGS beyond this Red Line, where i left the area to the right unmarked so you can see behind this line is a raised area that leads to the Cathedral

HOWEVER on the other side of this RED LINE and in front of the Statues of Offering we see all those beings are Dead, like some kind of Pompeii event... and also Large Obelisk that are beyond the area of the RED LINE have also suffered some Forceful Event.

I would assume these beings who had Females, had maybe been part of Some Religious Sacrificial Purpose which Ridley Scott did refer to the Sacrificial Scene as such, that its like one Person would be Chosen by the Tribe (Mayan) and for One year they would be treated as a PRINCE and then after this they would be Sacrificed for the Good of the Tribe or its Agenda/Benefit.

I feel maybe similar is at play here... UNTIL these beings maybe Rebelled against this PURPOSE in a similar way to how the Igigi had done so against their Hierarchy the Annunnaki.

Lindeloff i think it was referred to Mankind as forgetting that Self Sacrifice is key and as they went against this notion we was deemed UN-righteuous by the Engineers.  Or along those lines.

So maybe these beings had a Purpose... the Set Reports did claim inside this Cathedral they had a Altar with a Sacrificial Blade and so it seemed this place was set up for some kind of Sacrificial Event and they even said it had the feeling of offering of Virgins for Sacrifice.

Maybe these beings Rebelled against this Purpose, as well as other things and they was DESTROYED as a Result.... maybe this is why Engineers then lost the ability to Procreate by normal means as they have No Females.

Maybe this is why Mankind was Created, and why the Engineer in Prometheus seemed interested in Shaw...  These Engineers are classed as the Fallen Angels.  

Maybe events like Genesis 6:4 when the Sons of God (Angels) came onto the Daughter of Man (Human Females) and gave birth to Giants. Can come into play...

Ridley Scott did say that in context to Paradise Lost that the Fallen Angels had the most Fun, and that you had One being who was Handsome and went to all the Parties and got all the Girls... while there was a Less Handsome one who stayed at home being boring.

I think all this can indeed tie into what we shall be shown..

And so i again think this Scene and those Engineers are killed by a Punishment by their Hierarchy rather than by David and the Black Goo.

Evidence looks stacked up against the Black Goo, unless we are willing to take the 4Chan leaks as 100% Legit..  i actually think the Source i had who pushed me to such theories i have here could actually be correct.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Shasta cyclone

FacehuggerMember281 XPMar-22-2017 3:00 AM

I believe that what ever happened there, happened around the time as the out break at lv223. If not and david is somehow responsible for their demise it leave a whole in the story line IMO. if the (fallen angels) of lv223 were from there why didn't the beings on paradise go check on them with it happening so long ago. However it would be easy to say with the ship crashing into that water fall and the black goo got into the water, the beings drink and it petrifies them ( I'm not a writer, but that just seems to easy ).

I think you ( Big Dave )brought up the pulse weapon that could have just fried them. I agree.in your above post you mentioned how and where the dead bodys were spread out up to the red line. In some of the still shots there were bodys in hallway/corridors also but don't know where that may be.  I think that scene happened around the same time as the out break on lv223 perhaps before. I think there was some kind of rebellion and that those being wanting to destroy humans on earth caused the hierarchy or watchers to respond with extreme prejudice. As far as the juggernaut crashing I still think ( I've brought this up before ) I don't think davids head was attached yet so shaw was piloting the ship and was still feeling the effects of her wounds and either passed out or just couldn't land it so she crashed landed it. I say that because it does seem like it was an attempted landing going by how the trees are broke. I'm probably wrong, lol. As I typed this I came up with other ideas that totally contradict what I just typed. lol

 

Shasta cyclone

FacehuggerMember281 XPMar-22-2017 3:19 AM

BD, do you think the hierarchy left or died along with the other beings? I'm very curious as to there culter and technology doesn't seem to add up. (religious, ceremonial culter with space ships and DNA manipulation ) and then there is the big question.....who or what made the xenomorph? yes I know off topic/another thread.

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember733 XPMar-22-2017 7:22 AM

The Replaced shots of the Juggernaut 

I am not anxious to look at elements of the trailer to often so I will not return to them but my thinking was that if you show a closer in view of an undamaged ship which has retained its integrity rather than a wider shot with broken trees it could mean Ridley wanted to send out a different visual message. 

The Engineers are merely a Superior Species.

If as Ridley has said its a many layered story I return to my first point that the devastation was the result of retribution from the hierarchy for the Engineers breaking their Covenants. The devastation feels like Pompeii but we know those remains were preserved because they were entombed. However this is science fiction and if their deaths resulted from an Arc like show of biblical force then why would we have to follow the rules of our experiences. We should also remember the Engineers are a superior species and may not react in an identical way to mankind.

BD mentions his source but the story has changed substantially since early 2015. In the Pandemonium Phase David and Shaw came to a living Engineer world what has been carried over is the determination of Ridley to show the special but related nature of the Engineers culture to mankind and their relationship with a hierarchy which is a more recent story driver. Our glimpse at the hierarchy will come from gaining an understanding of the Engineers their relationship with the hierarchy and what happened to them which I have always believed it will come through David. His performing experiments on the Engineer form maybe part of that movement. If the the devastation is the result of the hierarchy and long ago I think any live Engineer is likely to have been on board the Juggernaut in cryo rather than a soul survivor. It is also leaner neater story telling and brings continuity from ideas used in Prometheus. it could be a preserved Engineer who was caught up in their rituals of sacrifice. If it is more complicated than that with David interacting in a more sophisticated arc with survivors then I believe that will belong to ADF's book.    

If the acolyte at the beginning of Prometheus was a blessed creature seeding Paradise having been give the hierarchies gifts, a more direct interpretation of that scene, then part of their rebellion will be connected to their refusal of Ragnarok and their determination to attempt sub creation and a re ordering.

This element of the story together with David's story and evolution is for me the really interesting element.

Where I think Daniel's will contribute strongly is in being used to explain these elements through her reaction to what she comes up against. Katherine is a very nuanced performer and she will be able to carry the transformative survivor role as well as the intellectual reaction to the big picture. McBride and Walter will be a nice contrast for her to work off as the 3rd Act gets under weigh.       

Ingeniero

PraetorianMember3381 XPMar-22-2017 7:24 AM

Hi BigDave. I responded to your comment on another thread but it was lost in the discussion. I thought my reply to you had a better place in this thread any way.

The human tech is out of place. One thing that Ridley Scott mentioned in his last round of interviews in regards to Dr. Shaw and the Alien: Awakening slip (deliberate or not) was the period in between LV-223 and Paradise.

David 8 could have been on Paradise for a year after nine years of harvesting technology from another human colony or craft.

They were in a juggernaut, so that breaks through limitations of human spacecraft as far as reach for David 8 and Dr. Shaw before David 8 went to Paradise.

It does look like the Engineer bodies rotted away when Daniels is on the stone ramp (denotes time passing since the attack on Paradise).

 

I still believe this pic below is from another time (as much as years) in relation to when the Covenant crew arrived.

 

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9895 XPMar-23-2017 4:47 AM

Indeed Michelle

There is no telling what scale of changes had happened, if i assume the Source as Legit as far as Prometheus 2, as at the time they said from November that year (2015) expect News to Official start to come out (and it did) and that Shooting was to either commence or wrap up around March 2016.

They did add that the information could be subject to change if they do any more Re-writes which 4 months latter John Logan was brought in to do such a thing.... they also said that the Drafts often do not match the Movie 100% as things can be changed and dropped when the Shooting Script is done... and concepts also dropped or changed... thats prior to Editing.

They seemed to after AC was out, say it appears the new movie is a Aftermath of Prometheus 2, to a degree.  And that potentially Alien 5 Anticipation Forced a re-write

Ridley Scott did say recently... "if the fans want Aliens, ill give them F-ing Aliens" to me this seems like this means the Original Plans would not have connected as much to the Xenomorph

It will be interesting to now see where they are going, as the Source hints seem to had led me to conclude its not like David and Shaw was to come to a World with Advanced Engineers and Technology that was also populated by a thriving civilization.

They said the movie would be a more Ancient Aesthetic but with some Giger/LV-223 Elements but its mainly has a Ancient theme for most of the related Shots.

They also seemed to tease, from the information that Biblical Events actually happened, but not necessary to our Generation and on Earth.   And they mentioned the Terra-forming Technologies that can Manipulate Worlds not only Climate wise but also actual Core of Worlds such as to effect the Landscape too

And these have been used to re-set Worlds a number of times, and also their Terra-forming is way more Advanced than Weylands but to a degree similar.

When i first saw the Set Photos of the Scene of Disaster it matched how they described Ancient Culture look, but i could not work out if this was Black Goo and if this shot was with Life Actors.

The other released ones that was requested to be taken down that was shot at Night, seemed to 100% confirm these was Props and had Females for 100%

This made me then think maybe a Ancient Sodom and Gomorrah type event is what happened, which fits with the Sources Clues about Biblical Events not happening on Earth.

The new Trailer with this Dome, i think kind of makes me feel this indeed is the case to a degree and maybe this Technology is the cause and indeed maybe it could be some kind of Terra-forming Device that has been used in other means.

Or at very least something happened, and this Central Cathedral has a Device that can Wipe Out the Population maybe in response to a Black Goo Outbreak?

I do find it difficult to think its the cause of a Black Goo Bombardment however..

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9895 XPMar-23-2017 4:57 AM

@Ingeniero

Indeed and who knows.... i am not so sure David would go around places getting Technology.. but we cant rule out some previous interaction between David and Human Technology.

Was Paradise visited prior? was LV-426 and David went there next?

It does leave many questions....  unless

*Those Beings/Engineers had similar Technology to Mankind of the 20th century including Lamps....

*David from more Ancient Culture/Ruins could from Scratch invent such things... or reverse Engineer some more Advanced Engineer Tech left on Paradise or the Juggernaught to make Lamps.

As far as the image of the Temple with Daniels and Bichir (stunt double) i thought maybe this was after the Disaster Scene and the Bodies Dissolved, but in the Trailer it shows us they come across some bodies still there.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

David 7

FacehuggerMember488 XPMar-23-2017 6:12 AM

Pretty sure...we know by the release of this poster...

 

suwhited

FacehuggerMember355 XPMar-23-2017 6:39 AM

Uh, uh...

That poster is straight up Dante's Inferno...Hell Mythos, here.. we come...

Grinning & Dropping Linen

FacehuggerMember245 XPMar-23-2017 8:54 AM

it is most def implicating the hell mythos and thats awesome. To me in some shots the pertirfied bodies do not seem to be that large, so is it perhaps another faction of humanity that the engineers killed somehow??

Maybe the petrified bodies are Engineers and could it be that the higher power at play than the Engineers hinted at by Ridley in interviews could have pulled some Sodom and Gomorrah trick on the population as punishment for meddling with things they should have left alone.

I feel conflicted as i hope that whatever happened on Paradise was some ancient punishment from a higher race of beings we have yet to be introduced to....but if David was not involved in them being in this condition and it was ancient how did he acquire the plasticized Engineer for testing that we see in the Red Band Trailer....i really hope they are just throwing a million red herrings at us and they have some wonderfully imaginative tricks for us on May 19th

Shasta cyclone

FacehuggerMember281 XPMar-23-2017 9:22 AM

wow! that poster is terrifying and awesome at the same time.

chli

ChestbursterMember935 XPMar-25-2017 11:52 AM

We have discussed the massacre from different angles (punishment from higher beings, extermination due to an outbreak caused by the mutagen, a safety switch should anything go wrong with experiments etc) but perhaps not of collective sacrifice?

Mesopotamia, Classical Greece, Mesoamerica etc had temples where sacrifices, offerings were made to the gods. But these high cultures were also characterized by being city-states: Every city had its own rulers, laws, priests etc. And they fought each other . . . If a neighbouring city-state concurred another, they would often destroy their cultural symbols, temples etc, and, they would often kill everyone, sacrifice them, in honor of their own gods.

Could tribal war be behind the genocide?

chli

ChestbursterMember935 XPMar-25-2017 11:55 PM

BD: Can we be sure that the scenes with the search party and the burnt bodies are connected?

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