What really killed those beings on Paradise?23,356 Views79 RepliesAdd A Reply
I think it's time maybe we look at what really could have killed those beings (Engineers or related) on Paradise?
I always felt the Scene from the earlier shots we had looked more like some Ancient Sodom and Gomorrah type of Event, a Punishment against those beings on Paradise for doing something to maybe upset their Creators or Hierarchy?
We have the other theory that David Drops the Black Goo on them via dropping Urns on them, but we see no proof of Urns, and then how come the Juggernaught Crashes into the Mountains after this? The 4Chan leak claims however this was the case.
I beg to differ... and now we have more clues via latest Trailer i think its time to maybe discuss alternatives.
Clearly Prometheus showed us the Black Goo either Genetically Mutates/Evolved Organic Life into a Hybrid or it maybe also leads to their Genetic Structure being broken down, i guess it depends how the Goo interacted with the Target/Victim.
These Char-grilled/Burnt Beings look like a Scene from Pompeii only they are more detailed and do not look like they have been covered in ASH, they look Scorched... Its like a Biblical Event like Sodom and Gomorrah where indeed Lots Wife looked back after fleeing those Cities and she was turned into a Pillar of Salt.
Prometheus had a lot of Biblical Themes, but maybe we need to not consider them too literally. Indeed we are off to Paradise where in the Biblical Sense we had the Cradle of Creation, the Garden of Eden and where Man was created.
But Adam had Sinned and Eve too and they was cast out of the Garden and Cast out of Paradise..... Now in Context to the Franchise we are shown this Paradise World is a separate place it is not on Earth at all. It however is where maybe Creation had came from, because if those Engineers played a role in our Creation and if they came from Paradise which is were the Covenant Lands, could other Biblical Events loosely apply?
So as we have seen what the Black Goo does in Prometheus.. can the Black Goo do this?
Can it Mummify/Petrify Engineers?
Can the Urns be released with such Force to Knock over Stone Monuments and Cause Serve Damage them?
Or is there perhaps another far more Ancient Event at hand?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Pretty sure David and Shaw find all these creatures dead already when they land. Btw, do we know for a fact they crash? It seems a bit odd tough to land in the middle of a lush forest...
Here is my theory.
The engineers were wiped out by another humanoid race yet to be revealed. What ever weapon it used it not only killed them but rendered their technology useless ( which is why Shaw and David are stranded there, more ships but no power). As far as the juggernaut crash, I think David was coaching to fly that thing. During its decent Shaw curcomes to her injuries from the star beast and is unable to control the ship and they crash.
The pyramid that David is walking from might be something like The Pyramid of the Moon in Teotihuacan ("Birthplace of the gods"). There is an open square in front of the pyramid (just like where all the burnt bodies in the trailer are). There is also a road "Avenue of the Dead" leading to The Pyramid of the Sun.
In AVP all life is extinguished if the serpents would win against the predators:
We do not know what is in the juggernaut Dr. Shaw and David 8 took upon LV-223. All we got to see was that the ship looked similar and they (Dr. Shaw and David 8) were able to get it to fly above cloud level.
The assumption was that similar cargo was upon similar ships but who knows?
whatever did it it wasnt volcanic activity or a weapon or a bomb otherwise those things would have damaged the temple etc.....it could be something where David and Shaw arrive at the planet only to find this...could be that they release the goo into the atmosphere, water etc and the screenplay just says thats what did it....personally i hope that david and shaw arrived and this was already done since that creates a mystery and hints at bigger things out there in this universe
Interesting points guys..
Indeed a number of the other temples do look like these and Ancient Ziggurats of Ancient Mesopotamia
I pondered a while ago are these Temples like Ancient Landing Platforms as per Ancient Astronaut theories.. and could we be seeing a seen like out of Titanic or movies like Deep Impact where there is a impending Disaster and these guys here are just too late to make it to the Life Boats or Entrance to Safety.
The new Temples we see are very interesting as we have that Centerpiece Cathedral... maybe some knew of the Disaster or decision to destroy the World and so some had escaped. It would be similar to a End of the World Event on Earth, where the World Elite and Wealthy know of the Doom and are rushed off to Safety of Escape Ships or Entrances to Underground Sanctuary .. while the rest are left to Perish.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
The AVP Shot is also very very on-topic as a possibility, if say some outbreak happened and the Temple was kind of a Safety Protocol like in AVP movie... so when something gets out of hand the Temple has a Back Up Super Weapon to Wipe the Slate Clean
I will safely Assume to 99.5% that Davids ship does have Urns on them, as for if they contain the same DNA or different who knows..
Much like these Egyptian Canopic Jars, yeah i know they are for storage of Organs... but i think they look like Urns and Spaights draft we had well was supposed to have 8 kinds of Xenomorphs.. so maybe other Temples on LV-223 have slightly different strains of Xeno DNA?
I am still pretty open to other reasons for this scene... but i feel evidence is backing up against David dropping the Goo as the cause.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
It would really frost everyone's cookies if all the bodies in the original post were those of mutated and mad colonists.
Indeed that would be one major Curveball ;)
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
BD: Yes it does look like some kind of Harmagedon where a genocide has taken place. It could be engineers or perhaps another hominid race (who have temples where they worship the gods). In the latter case we see what could have happened to Earth if Shaw and Janek hadn't prevented it. It seems (from the prop) like the door into the temple is shut and that even one of the burnt corpses is in a squatting position raising his hands in a cursing protest. The doors were sealed just like what happened to the running engineers in the hologram on LV-223?
A weird thought that had popped into my head initially was a "Pulsar," or something of that sort. Probably too highbrow I suppose, but it would be a perfect way to explain why technology/signs of civilization could exist, while the actual engineers themselves would all be dead, and more or less at the same time.
But the wide swath of seemingly mutated engineer corpses seems to put the kibosh on that.
Not exactly the right forum for it, but I seem to be a rare exception to the Alien fans in general. I enjoyed a good chunk of Prometheus (other than the genuinely stupid, illogical bits), and am disappointed that the movie I was expecting, isn't coming.
There have been a gazillion movies in the Alien franchise featuring these kinds of storylines, it seems to be the Alien version of The Force Awakens in that sense, a bit too repetitious. I was really looking forward to the idea of the Engineers and Shaw meeting, and sussing out what the hell happened and why. I enjoy those kinds of First Contact films a ton. Gore fests do nothing for me, although it's worth noting I'm certainly not the intended audience so I can't appreciate whatever nuances there are to those aspects. I just find the story telling in such stories usually quite weak. The same can be true in First Contact type stuff, but for me First Contact is a thrilling concept with loads of variations in terms of possibilities. Yet another story about a ship landing, and in ignorance essentially walking into a trap that will swallow the bulk of them whole in the most unpleasant of fashions.
I was hoping for some really smart, crisp writing, and a great story. Now I'm just looking for the nuance and interesting details that might make a more gore oriented film interesting to me.
Indeed i agree in part that could be correct
@Chli indeed that shot of a female in interesting i said a number of times this is either like them cursing out at a Punishment or they knew of a Punishment/Disaster and planned to escape via a Landing Pad in those temples but they was too late.
so it was like some scenes from Titanic or Deep Impact
Indeed it seemed to look as such and so its who is the Judas?
Captain Oram (Crudup) gets its name from Serpent/Dragon which could mean either.
1) He is the first Xenomorph Progenitor Host (as Ridley had referred to the Xeno as a Dragon/Serpent which Oram means.
2) Like the meaning for Devil which is classed as a Dragon/Serpent, and the Biblical Meaning for Devil is Opposer and Deceiver so had Crudrup opposed the original Captain or deceived the Crew?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
very interesting philosophical explanation, BigDave, but what about the choking scene of Callie Hernandez?, where it leads, the teaser is very confused and the biblical topic leads us to a some character linked to Judas, maybe Captain Oram?, but till now everything is very vague, It's a scrap puzzle or maybe not.
The whole Prologue scene was in a way a Easter Egg nod to Alien.
But it did have the whole Biblical Last Supper look to it and it was also called the Last Supper but we cant take this too much as a direct hint as Ridley Scott likes to give Red Herrings etc
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
BD: Nice catch with the Old Norse meaning of the surname Oram (serpent/dragon) - "orm" (snake) in Swedish :) . It could be a subtle hint that he will be the progenitor of the xeno as you suggest.
It also looks like a female as you say (with the small waist) but is it engineers or another kind of hominid (related to humans)?
Given the nature of the corpses, all I can think of is some rather exotic, and powerful directed energy weapon. I do NOT mean like a 'phaser', but something akin to say a Maser, a Microwave Laser, if you like. The bodies seem to have been killed and carbonized instantly, case in point the ones that remain standing.
This suggests something like microwaves which would be able to be set at the right sub-frequency and with immense power to affect all the body mass uniformly at the same time, and powerful enough to flash-carbonize tissues. It also seemed to fire either in a 'fan' or 'cone' as it seems to have been an area-of-effect, also it appears to have no effect on non-living materials.
Then there's the gigantic trees which are cleanly sheared off into stumps, yet so far as we know, they weren't simply cut down, the upper parts just went-away, perhaps blasted into carbonized dust by the same weapon.
IN SPACE THERE IS NO WARNING
I think the Tree Shot could be where we see the crew of the Covenant heading towards the crashed Juggernaught, and the Tops are CGI and Matt Painting afterwards.
but indeed it adds up to some kind of Weapon to me, and the Temple/Cathedral has statues facing it on all sides, so maybe we could see something like this.
Then its discharges a Energy Blast Outwards
As far as these beings being Engineers, they are either Engineers or indeed a race connected in some way, the Question is are they.
*A Race who created the Engineers
*A Race Created by the Engineers
*A Race created by those who also Created Engineers
*Previous Generation of Mankind
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Good point on the trees, never thought of that, but that explains the set-markers. :)
Good thoughts on who the victim-creatures might have been, and you extend into another possible 'depth' of Humanity as it's possible that some out there might be playing with Biological Androids rather than Mechanical and it would be analogous to how Homo Sapiens created David, Walter and future androids.. Your theorizing does have me Thinking and Pondering.
Yeah, it's quite possible the weapon could be built into the cathedral-building, which would explain the consistency of damage the beings experienced as none seems to have been missed or experienced partial-exposure effects. Good call on that, I never considered that possibility of the building being the 'weapon' or having such built in.
IN SPACE THERE IS NO WARNING
That is very interesting topic I m wondering what kind of religion did they follow some buildings reminds me to Stonehenge designed with a special purpose, maybe like a prehistoric ritual center aligned with the movement of the Sun. Is someting Neolithic my question is what religious belief and What kind of gods did engineers worship?
Goo outbreak happened and weapon was used to contain it, thus killing all life on paradise. The end. Weapon is used to conduct electricity. Lightning was used to wipe out all life on paradise.
The central question who caused the disaster on Paradise as always will be determined by story.
Ridley has indicated the Engineers are merely a superior species so how will the hierarchy manifest itself in Covenant. Indeed how will we be introduced to the concept of the hierarchy. I can think of few better ways than the Engineers lost paradise as a result of breaking their Covenant and were punished as a result. The precise nature of their transgression which includes their behaviour on LV223 would be the metaphorical tale into which David and Shaw come. Michael has said that David and Shaw leave LV223 alone, as far as we know. There is an attempt to show a very tall being in some of the stills I have seen perhaps this is big idea David or perhaps they brought an Engineer with them and this is the character running to the citadel (This seems like an act of desperation in running toward the origins of their power) this co traveller can also fall victim to Davids 10 year plan which given Davids previous treatment by a co worker would represent revenge.
All we need to know is the Engineers transgressed and for the nature of that to be explained by an Engineer from LV223 would drag Prometheus into the narrative. That David has brought with him the vials full of Chemical A0-3959X.91 – 15 gives him the tools and knowledge to conduct his experiments ignoring the morality tale offered to him by the Engineers.
One of the suggested reasons for the Black Goo being responsible for the devastation is the leaking of the mutagen when the Juggernaut crashed. I have never accepted it actually crashed and it is notable in the still from the more recent trailer that the huge trees which appeared to be damaged by that possibility are no longer in the shot. That suggests to me the feedback from test audiences suggested the shot sent out the wrong message and it has been cleaned up to show the Juggernaut in one piece sat on the ledge. There are some extremely modest trees which are shown as rotten but the overall impact of those few seconds leaves a different message.
I am anxious not to spoil the film at all for myself and I am curious we can speculate so close to the film and really still not know the key elements of the story unless you chose to believe in some of the more elaborate leaks.
I have gone back and forth on who engineered the disaster but you can certainly tell the story without David being responsible and introduce the notion of a more terrible hierarchical power.
Well, the genocide must have taken place recently (otherwise the bodies would have rotted away), unless it’s a flashback scene of what happened a long time ago - and it’s not David walking among the bodies (it’s another being). The outbreak on LV-223 perhaps spread to “Paradise” and the holocaust was necessary (it would have happened anyway and the xeno would be at the top of the food chain).
I wonder if anybody made it inside the temple before the gates closed (other than the being who hit the electrocution-switch)?
Also, my guess is that the juggernaut did crash and the mutagen leaked out into the stream and out into the lake - hence no sign of life (exterminated). Perhaps we will see something arise from the lake? :) . The mutagen is probably also the cause to the spores that they encounter on their way up the creek. This might also be the cause to Shaw's demise, by the way (not David).
There is a lot of merit in your alternative reasoning. It suggests David was left stranded in amongst the devastation playing God. David has been on Paradise for ten years for a story telling reason the other side of that question is why did he not leave. He may feel as the lonely boy this is his domain and one in which he wishes to sub create, he may not be able to.
The question that the planet is habitable with vegetation but no animal life will be because otherwise the entire planet would be alive with any number of mutagenous outcomes crowding the aesthetic and the story, the reasoning behind this can be connected to its origins as the gift shown at the beginning of the Prometheus. This planet may represent "Valhalla" which has been seeded by the acolyte and therefore the gift may include all the" Engineers" need to sustain life - a pristine garden of Eden without mammals or birds. This ecological possibility is ironically the history of New Zealand where excepting Bats mammals were introduced artificially by mankind's migrations and the same applies to bird life with some notable indigenous species.
If we pursue the idea that it was actually a routine planet with birds and animals like the Engineers their remains would be evident. But these Einherjar may have been vegetarians who have indeed been eviscerated by the mutagen more recently or by some biblical like intervention which leaves them Pompeii like frozen in time. Both outcomes are plausible.
The Black Goo when played back into the Engineers DNA may not have the same effect as the catalyser at the beginning of Prometheus, this would demonstrate they are actually different as Lindelof intended, according to his official commentary, equally their particular stasis would be explained by hierarchical intervention.
I have seen the three seconds from the trailer which BD has snapped and as I have said there is something urgent and reactive in the running figure rather than someone coming upon an ancient armageddon and pondering the scene.
You clearly do not think the reorganised digital of the Juggernaut which seems more proud and more unequivocally undamaged is significant. Something is happening either below or in the underpart of the juggernaut which is grungy but the actual corridor which is date/time stamped as toward the end of the movie 08/12 (UK lay out) 18.56 and the flash lit area of the Orrery are unharmed.
I would not put serious money on just one of the two possibilities that is why going to see the movie unknowing will make it such fun.
The obvious answer is this ;) :
Someone told a lousy joke which created mass hysteria among the Engineers since they didn't understand. Side A which thought that it was fun as hell laughed and the other side that didn't get it got mad and sent out their deadly creatures and so on. The side that had a sense of humor tried to defend themselves with fart baloons but since that didn't work they had to get serious. They went insane and started to kill each-other. A misunderstanding in communication? ;)
Yes, who caused the holocaust and when and why? If it was thousands of years ago (perhaps connected to the outbreak on LV-223 which spread to Paradise), the bodies would be long gone in the lush climate of Paradise. In Pompeii, the bodies were gone but the space from them was still there in the ash layer, and the genocide on Paradise was probably not a volcano eruption. It could have been the wrath of “gods” (from the level above the engineers in the hierarchy for the engineers’ breaking of a covenant, or just metaphorically/symbolic (as you suggest, Michelle) that David is the nemesis for their hubris (playing gods themselves).
Since the bodies seem to be burnt some kind of electrical power source seems to have been used (lightning perhaps?). This is also what could have happened to earth if Shaw and Janek hadn’t intervened. But the weapon of mass destruction made by the engineers was the mutagen which also wiped out the engineers on LV-223. So for a genocide we would only need xenos/protos/neos so why the burnt bodies? Unless the purpose was to extinguish all living creatures (except vegetation) and start anew (done by whom)?
But how did David get the plastinated body (engineer/other humanoid/Shaw)? David could of course have traveled back and forth between LV-223 and Paradise in the Juggernaut in the 10 years’ time (collecting a body)? That is, if the Juggernaut didn’t crash. If it didn’t crash, why did David (and Shaw?) stay there for 10 years? To me it makes more sense if the juggernaut crashed and they/he couldn’t leave the planet (only send out a distress signal which The Covenant stumbles upon on their way to their intended destination).
But, is David the fiend using his free will, experimenting and causing all the devastation or is he the lonely, curious, misunderstood boy (not responsible for Shaw’s death)? Well, we’ll know in May. :)
Interesting with “Einherjar” that you mention, Michelle. In Ragnarök (the end of the world) even the gods are killed, the world is cleansed of all life in order to later start life anew. In Ragnarök, snakes and dragons take part . . .
I also think that the new trailer is better composed, by the way. The Dante-references in the center and not too much of the xeno/proto. I can’t say about the trees but I don’t think it necessarily means that they have changed the movie - just the trailer. :)
I like the golden temple link, but those bodies are piled up, some on the stairs by what looks like a gate, that indicates to me a surprise, a detonation of something to enable a quick death rather than devoiring each other, thanks to the goo.
Im speculating, but i would bank heavily on the goo spreading from the crashed ship and every large mammal eating every other large mammal.
If shaw and david want to meet engineers, they wouldnt drop the goo on them?? Maybe prequel sequel has david and shaw meet some of the 'real deal'
As you know my prime driver here is to learn how a film is made and how you tell a story in a powerful and focused manner.
Everything tells me that this film is intended to explain the background to the Xeno-morph and how it came to be on LV426. The ingredients are the Mutagen whose effect was established in Prometheus where Doctor Shaw birthed a creature not unrelated to a Face Hugger. That came about as a result of David responding to Charlie's desire for answers.
As David is the straight line into the narrative and the core driver of the movie everything will be built around him and taking his opportunities over 10 years.
Shaw will I am sure continue to suffer in ways not unrelated to what happened in Prometheus.
Thousands of Engineers are lying dead in a way which for me instinctively feels recent rather than ancient.
David would appear to have experimented and possibly on an Engineer was this the last one standing or one that came with them. Michaels remark "as far as we know"
In every respect those stories can build toward the creation of a life cycle and something close to the Zeno-Morph of A L I E N. So how does the hierarchy fit in its what I called last year moral relativism. One element that Covenant can drag forward from Prometheus is the experimentation and creation of the mutagen and through David's aquired knowledge of the Engineers we can learn how that represents the Engineers Fall from grace given they were a chosen species, given the gift of Paradise. That is where I think the hierarchy comes in and it supports the notion of the A L I E N being created out of rebellion and Paradise Lost.
One point which I have not seen raised recently is that Ridley said quite early on that David is bringing hell and what if he affects the machine or God that he comes across. This idea belongs to comments over a year ago before we moved in the autumn of 15 to an Alien prefix and John Logan but thats not to say that it isn't one of the Green/Paglen ideas that have been evolved. So the power and knowledge that is suggested resides in the Engineers and is celebrated and implied by the buildings in the back ground of the still may have been corrupted by the mutagen and that corruption has brought about the disaster. Whatever is the source of power that has been gifted to them may have become mutagenised and destroyed them.
The advantage of that line of thinking is the mutagen remains central it has been brought by David from LV223 and some thing the Engineers created leads to the corruption of the central tenant of their power and their downfall - echo's of Chernobyl and The Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant. But by introducing the concept of gifts misused and covenants broken you add that extra layer, who provided the gifts ? and with whom did they make the covenants?
Indeed this is the interesting thing about the Engineers and History is it leaves it pretty open to all kinds of debates.
This is what SteveRogers1973 also seemed to point to in another thread and my reply was this.
This is another possible explanation, that maybe there was a Outbreak and there was some kind of Safety Device... just like when Janek and his Co-Pilot had to Nuke a Science Outpost on Earth because someone Split Something.
This is indeed a viable explanation.
But there could be many more, i seriously doubt this is the effect of a Black Goo infection alone... unless those behind the Story really are LAZY and dont do their HOMEWORK and we would be left with lots of Contradictions... this thing could end up a MASSIVE Mess, but we have to hope they have done their homework and learned from Prometheus.
As far as Prometheus shows us, and the drafts back this up... If David drops the Black Goo on these Engineers it raises these few Problems.
*How did a Civilization of Engineers not have no defense for this attack or Any Defenses at all... I CAN EXPLAIN THIS AFTER
*Why in all the shots have we Seen Not a Single Urn on the Ground, especially if this is a recent event or we see a short aftermath after such Event. I CAN EXPLAIN THIS AFTER
*Why do we not see the Engineers either being Transformed into Hybrid Organisms, or breaking down into just Genetic Material. These bodies do remain in this Pompeii like state by the time the Covenant Crew arrive... so they are there for 10 years at least, unless they welcomed David and Shaw for a few years?
*Why did the Juggernaught Crash, i have seen both Trailers and to me the 2nd Trailer Shows the Ship has taken more Damage than the First unless it landed upon a subterranean Network with the similar Designs Aesthetic of the Juggernaughts.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017