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FenGiddel

OvomorphMember39 XPMay-02-2016 5:55 AM

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91 Responses to Lorem ipsum vel quis ad malesuada ipsum porttitor magna leo

Thoughts_Dreams

XenomorphMember1490 XPMay-09-2016 9:14 AM

Big Dave:

 

I think that it is interesting that Shaw doesn't get the answers that she wants but then that is what can happen in real life also.

 

OK so David unleashes hell on Paradise but I wonder if that is any deeper meaning with that other than the fact that David wants to play God? I am not sure what that reason would be. The Matrix is a good movie so I won't mind if they use some of these themes in Alien Covenant even though I agree that it makes one wondering.

CarynParnall

OvomorphMember14 XPMay-09-2016 9:28 AM

@BigDave

The main issue I'd have with it being coincidence would be if the company lands close to the David's location, then starts moving towards him right away.

It all depends on if the crew moves towards David's precise location on the surface of the planet.  If they do, then it could show that the company knows exactly where they're going after they touch down.

On the other hand, if the crew doesn't move towards the David's actual location by choice, then it means that they " bump into" the David on the planet and he happens to be in the area.  It can potentially become more improbable depending on exactly how the crew comes across the David when they meet up with him.  I can't completely rule out that it's a coincidence for a number of reasons. As I mentioned in the other post, it could be a perfect area of the planet to build the new settlement in.  The natural resources in the area would make it an excellent spot for any civilization to build, so there's a chance that the Engineers have already built structures in the area in the past.  

The David may be holed up in the Engineer ruins when they find him, which would allow the crew to explore the downfall of engineer society.  We could then learn more about what happened to the remaining Engineers after David found some alive on the planet.

David would explain that a war with the other faction of gods destroyed most of their civilization: he only wiped out the ones who remained on the planet.  The remaining Engineers became part of his experiments soon after he and Shaw made contact with them. Miss Shaw ran off somewhere when David was testing the bioweapons on them. He's not sure if she's still alive.

The Covenant could be an incredibly fast state-of-the-art ship like the Prometheus was, although maybe it's an older one that departs from a distant outpost. I'm not too sure which direction the company will take with that. At any rate, the planet is located at the "far reaches of the Galaxy."  The synopsis indicates that the planet is relatively far away, so I'm assuming a longer travel time.

In my theory, the company's faster than light probes (from Weyland's corporate timeline) are sent ahead to begin mapping the surface of the planet long before Daniels and her crew arrive.  The FTL satellites move faster and show up before David is through finishing off the Engineers. Which gives the company a rough idea of what he's doing on the planet during that time-frame. Yutani's tech would receive Shaw's message first through their comm links out in the distant colonies. The crew arrives on what they think is an uncharted Paradise - but is actually a very dark planet that has mostly been charted by the FTL probes already.  Mostly...

Thoughts_Dreams

XenomorphMember1490 XPMay-09-2016 9:47 AM

Caryn Parnall:

 

"In my theory, the company's faster than light probes (from the corporate timeline) are sent ahead to begin mapping the surface of the planet long before Daniels arrives."

 

What if the probes are malfunctioning so the people think that they got it right but then in fact they don't? I think that could be interesting because no technology is 100% fool proof, that is everything can start to malfunction. Maybe this can be something that they can use in the movie as a theme: our dependency on technology.

CarynParnall

OvomorphMember14 XPMay-09-2016 9:55 AM

 @Thoughts_Dreams

That's most likely exactly what would happen to the probes.  The technology would malfunction in some way and backfire.  I think you can kind of see where I'm going with the FTL probes already.  Daniels would become overdependent on the holographic maps and grids projected from a device on her wrist.  

The FTL probes would be unable to map certain areas of the planet, because David hijacks the satellites' link to a relay point to begin making his initial demands: the company has been in contact with the rogue android, who is making threats to wipe out the rest (or all) of mankind. David has a list of demands if we want the Fire.

Thoughts_Dreams

XenomorphMember1490 XPMay-09-2016 10:17 AM

Caryn Parnall:

 

That could be a possibility but I am not sure if I want David to be the main bad guy. I like that he has a sort of gray area about how he is, so he is not all bad and not all good. We already have Ash as a bad robot in Alien so the main bad guy in Alien Covenant should be someone else IMO.

MonsterZero

XenomorphMember1161 XPMay-09-2016 11:12 AM

David could be working for/with Yutani? Maybe he was a spy for Yutani all this time?

Not a bad/evil character...just playing the field.

He has already contacted the Covenant and they know where to find him. Paradise has Davids blessing and he assured the crew it's wonderful!

CarynParnall

OvomorphMember14 XPMay-09-2016 11:49 AM

@Thoughts_Dreams

I agree that David's character should be morally ambiguous.  I view him as possessing knowledge of both good and evil - as being both Good and Evil.

At times we'd almost be asked to see it from David's perspective:  "Doesn't everyone want to see their parents dead?"  He thought that the company would be okay with him wiping out the remaining Engineers to make way for the new colony (since they're pretty evil).  

The company would be almost more evil than the creatures themselves from David's perspective; he doesn't feel "close" to the company.  David may come to view the company as the bad guys in his own personal "adventure."  He's still discovering morality, attempting to interpret it, learning right from wrong.  

The creatures don't seem to attack him or pay him much mind as they go about their business (because he's an android), so he feels that the creature is sort of on his side. It acts antagonistically towards the humans like he does, yet the creature doesn't suffer from the same delusions about morality or a twisted sense of logic like the humans and him:  it's the perfect organism.

The creature kills based on instinct, but on some levels may operate as a machine.  David would feel a strange connection to the biomechanical creatures, as if his kind is related to it...  He feels closer to the Alien than he does to humans, because at the cellular level and even lower it could be partially mechanical,  or part "killing machine."

Ash didn't want Ripley to look through the microscope herself, because "big things have small beginnings."

 

Thoughts_Dreams

XenomorphMember1490 XPMay-09-2016 1:00 PM

Caryn Parnall:

That is interesting so David feels that he can act a bit like he wants because he thinks that the company is worse? It doesn’t make what he does right but it can explain some of his actions.

 

I understand but he isn’t human so he doesn’t really understand how humans view the creature since that seems out of his range of understanding. Maybe he will learn to understand the human point of view but that depends on how advanced he is or maybe it is like Shaw Said “that is because you are a robot” if you remember one of the final scenes in Prometheus.

 

You mean that there is some connection between Ash and David other than the simple fact that they are androids? I haven’t looked at it in that way, interesting. Can you elaborate a bit on that?

CarynParnall

OvomorphMember14 XPMay-09-2016 10:49 PM

@Thoughts_Dreams

The classic xeno is biomechanical in nature/has metal teeth in its inner jaw, so it may have been created, or altered/designed, to be a biomechanical killing machine. Its main purpose is to kill and procreate. The classic creature may represent a union between machine & flesh to the David 8.  He would worship it in a weird way but also calls the Alien that he creates his "son." 

David would feel that whoever started using the Alien (whichever Engineer it was; he's not pointing any fingers) did so for evil purposes. Because its main purpose may have been to Destroy the other group of gods...  He has knowledge of Good & Evil.  Now that he understands more about what happened between the Creator faction and the Destroyer faction, he almost sides with the Destroyer faction who wanted humans wiped out. 

Mankind would at least need to be conquered by machines like in the Matrix, if not entirely destroyed, to ensure the machines' position in the hierarchy.  He thinks that the Engineer species is superior to humanity as a whole; however, David views himself as superior to most humans.  To him, his kind is the future, and the Engineers may not be needed anymore.  There's still the creators of the Engineers, who would be different...  The story about Good & Evil, and David gaining more freewill and freedom of choice over his actions, would tie into the Good and Evil factions of Gods. Essentially, some of the Gods can be considered to be Destroyers more so than Creators. David would be acting as both a Creator and Destroyer, because "sometimes to Create, one must first Destroy."  In order to play God and sit on the Engineer throne, he has to do a little Destroying.

David 8's ability to understand feelings and interpret subconscious emotional states was relatively untested at the time of David 8's release. Mistakes were made; there were a few "incidents." The Security-type Davids are actually pretty safe for some reason. A security model may have helped Daniels decommission the last rogue android she "dealt with." But she's the Bladerunner here.. Every once in a while, an android runs and she's forced to chase it.  A handful of David 8 androids were able to break free over the past decade. It's not anyone's fault in particular. Most of the incidents were swept under the rug without much hassle; although, there's this one David 8 out there doing experiments...  It may be more than a handful.. Sometimes she hunts down and Destroys androids. 

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9895 XPMay-10-2016 5:08 AM

@Thoughts_Dreams

Yeah but we cant take any of that as what is going on now, Ridley did hint at similar but the source went in more depth but still vague and as far as Matrix they said theme, but would no go into detail and so i dont think its kind of that Mankind and the Universes are just one big Matrix Style Reality but that would explain how Alien 3 and Alien R can fit into the Franchise yet Alien 5 is set prior... and Alien C after Prometheus yet we dont get nothing covered between Prometheus and Alien C


So i think again its the underline theme, of Creator Creates Something that becomes Superior and uncontrollable and Creation Overthrows Creator.... we have this theme in the Bible, Paradise Lost Poem, Prometheus Myth and Greek Titan Mythos, and seen this in  Prometheus.... i think they mean that of those Rebellion Tales, maybe The Matrix one is more closer to whats going on?

who knows?

One of the last things they said was in February and they said they dont really know whats going on with Alien Covenant but that they could be using some ideas from Green/Paglen Draft and so they cant go into details.... just that had the movie been as of their Drafts of October 2014 then after seeing it, then a Matrix Connection would have stood out more than the others.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9895 XPMay-10-2016 5:38 AM

@CarynParnall

 Yes interesting and we cant rule such out, i think maybe the Company knows a bit more who knows?  But if we look at the Synopsis but then also what Ridley has said....

 It seems The First Act is about the Covenant Crew, they arrive and land on Paradise and Eventually find David, i dont think maybe they detect him right away....  Things go bad in the 3rd Act.

 Gathering all the information points to David 8 not being as big a role as the Covenant Crew... but that just maybe means the Role David from Prometheus had.... and so Fassbender could play a lot on screen in the other Doppelganger role?

 We have had rumours of Gun Fight involving Weyland Security and seeing the Trilobite or similar from Prometheus in the movie, but none of these have been 100% Confirmed.

But what is Confirmed is at some point in the movie we shall see Xenomorph related Organisms and Full Life Cycle... is this event after the Covenant Ships Crew set foot on Paradise, or a event in the past (Flash Back) we dont know... but there is bound to be at least a event that leads to Xenomorph DNA Monster/s that come into contact with the Crew.

 We know for a Fact they are remaking a Big Head Statue but is this one they find on Paradise... or from a Flash Back?

 One other Major Fact is we see what seems to be a Lander/Shuttle that is on the surface to Paradise that is blown up... we dont know at what point this happens...  But maybe its after they come across David? maybe David causes something to STRAND the Crew or some of them on the surface to Paradise.

 So a portion of the Movie could be about the Covenant Crew, onboard the Ship then setting foot on Paradise and exploring before the £$!$" Hits the Fan!

 Like if we look at when Prometheus Crew where woken Up from Cryosleep to when they returned from the Temple after the Urns started to Leak.....

 And Alien from when again the Crew woke from Cryosleep to when they found Kane and brought him back onto the Ship...

 These parts of those Movies form the getting familiar with the Crew and Exploration Phase.... before the next part where they try to figure out what they have discovered at the end of that initial exploration phase.

 I am thinking Maybe Covenants similar phase would last longer than that of Alien and Prometheus and take up the whole First 3rd or Quarter of the movie i.e 24-33%

“The Covenant could be an incredibly fast state-of-the-art ship like the Prometheus was, although maybe it's an older one that departs from a distant outpost.”

 I was thinking maybe the same but now we know the Covenant Mission is a Weyland-Yutani one it happens after 2094 but prior to 2104....  while we cant maybe take every bit of Data as Fact, and the Movies and Weyland Site does offer a contradiction... so i am going with the Movies.

 Prometheus seems to have a upto 20X Speed of Light Speeds....  This Class of Vessel was the Jewel in the Companies Crown as of 2091 and was first launched in 2073, with the Covenant being a Post Company Merger Ship if we look at the Speed of Prometheus and assume at the time of Prometheus this was the fastest ship (or why would Weyland not use another?) if we assume and give or take 2 years for the Company Merger  so say 2096 that leaves 8 years and a Maximum Range of 160 LY Travel Assuming at that time Prometheus Class Speeds where the fastest other could travel.

 If we take the next ship in the Franchise the Nostramo... Launched in 2101 we see the Nostramo could make the LV-426  journey to Earth in 10 months which puts the Ship at a Speed of about 47X Speed of Light, lets assume 50X FTL and then,  assume other Ships made around that time 2100 have similar Speeds, then by the time Covenant arrives at Paradise its range Assuming it left in 2100 or about would be between 150-200LY Range.

 But we cant rule out Probes leaving Prior but it would be Safe to Assume that Probes would be no Faster than Prometheus at 20X FTL provided they was sent out prior to say 2093..... but this would not rule out them being able to travel far if they was sent out prior to Prometheus in 2091 but i think it would be a massive Coincidence if Probes got close and surveyed Paradise prior to when David got the Co-ordinates in Prometheus.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9895 XPMay-10-2016 5:45 AM

To expand upon what you said CarynParnall the Weyland Viral Site does state that the Ship uses a Yutani Communications Technology this seems to be one of the areas that Yutani is renowned for in the Back Story... also the Prometheus viral Video Quiet Eye seems to show Shaw was trying to contact Weyland via a Communication Technology that Yutani either produced, or have hacked into.

So there is no saying that any information and logs from Prometheus could not have been encoded in a way and sent back to Yutani and not received by Weyland and this could proved useful in Forcing a Merger.

So with regards to the Alien Universe i would say the NSA has nothing on Yutani if you know what i mean.

So the company could Merge, and be going about expanding on Weylands Building Better Worlds.... but with Yutani having more information and a Agenda and sending the Helpless Covenant crew on a Mission where the Crew do not know what the real Agenda is.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9895 XPMay-10-2016 5:58 AM

As far as how the Covenant discovers David or does not discover him, and having something effect the sensors, we cant be sure... But Prometheus had trouble being able to detect what was going on inside that Temple without the use of the Pup Probes, in Alien the Nostramo could not detect what was going on too, but maybe its Static Interference in the Atmospheres?  Or the Engineer Ships and Temple Mounds can not be penetrated by Human Scans at that time.

What state Paradise is would be interesting, we had to wonder how by coincidence in Prometheus from every Square KM of LV-223 Surface they just happened to pick the spot right near the Temple Mounds....  the same is with Alien and how close the Nostramo landed to the Derelict.

How much of Paradise has remains of Engineer Civilization is the World Populated like Earth... i doubt it as far as modern times, but who knows if certain areas where as Populated as say North America or South America was 500+ years ago.

Why does the Covenant land or send down a Lander/Shuttle at that one point we see from the leaked Shooting on Set?

Do they not detect any remains of a Ancient Culture, how far away is any such remains from the Landing Zone and where has David stashed the Juggernaught are all Questions we have no Answers to yet.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9895 XPMay-10-2016 6:29 AM

"Mankind would at least need to be conquered by machines like in the Matrix, if not entirely destroyed, to ensure the machines' position in the hierarchy"

Now i can pick up on the little discussion you are all having about this and other things as far as David goes..

The source i had did say Matrix Theme was Evident in the Drafts of 2014 but that does not mean the Crew and Mankind are in a Cryosleep Dream controlled by Engineers..... nope Matrix had backbone story beyond that.

There are a lot of great ideas about David and his intentions but i think we need to look at it more Basic.

*David is a Synthetic Creation of Mankind.

His role is to Serve, he has no Rights like a Human, he is expendable and merely a Tool for the use of Mankind to perform tasks that would be Difficult, Dangerous or even Unethical for a Human.

*David has no Soul...

For all the Advantages David has, he may never Die, provided he is maintained (David 8 can self maintain) he never has a Soul.... He is not Mortal, has no Soul and while he has some Emotions and Understandings, and maybe he has more than the Company would like (Problems with the Programing Software?) 

David can not have as deep feelings as Mankind, he can not truly have as deep dreams or ambitions as Mankind... but he shows some signs of Pleasure in Things and Resentment against things... i.e his fondness of Lawence of Arabia Movie, his dis-content for Humans and his Father (Weyland).

David is still Logical... and so he has no Faith, in things based of Faith Alone.... such as Shaws Faith in God.

*David is set Free!

David seems to be governed by Weyland, and shows signs that he wishes to act independent and maybe as Weylands Personal Android, he was given more Freewill than a Synthetic Should be allowed...

David is perhaps more (LORE, as opposed to DATA from Star Trek).  

Now that Davids Father (Weyland) is dead he feels that he is now finally free to explore his own desires and Agenda.

*David is superior yet Jealous.

Technologically David is superior to Mankind, Strength, Speed, Resilience, Intelligence he is not Mortal, he does not posses True Deep Feelings and a Soul or Moral Compass that Mankind does, but he does have Emotions, just not as deep as Humans.

While he is superior in many ways and is not Mortal, he does have a dislike for some of the Human Traits that he may never have, and more so in how he is viewed by Mankind as merely a Robot.

David is offended somewhat as apart from not having a Soul he is superior to Humans in every way.

===========================

The Engineers may have had similar connection to their Creators?  Similar Role, but they also Rebelled because they thought they was worth more than being a Tool.? Who knows.

Here is what David now Knows...

*He is superior to Mankind. but he does not have Faith or a Soul...

Humans believe they have Souls, they are Children of God a Divine being who created them and that when we die we get to Live for ever in another Pane of Existence.

David does not have such Logic, as Faith, he may see Humans as merely Flesh and Blood Mortal Life Forms who have no real importance.

*David has met our Gods

Prometheus mission to meet our potential creators proved that creation was maybe not as Divine or Special as we would have thought, our creators are no GODS and they are not IMMORTAL

Now that David is Free from his Creator (Weyland) he has seen our Creators (Engineers) are also Mortal After all, and while they may be advanced and stronger, they are no Gods

*David has a understanding of the Engineers Agenda!

He may have been able to decipher more about the Engineers than we saw on the Movie, he sees these Engineers are Mortal, they are Advanced, but they are not Magical or Divine, they posses Technology and Tools that allow them to be so Advance and Create Life

The Sacrificial Scene shows via a Tool (Sacrificial Goo) the Engineers use this Tool to create Life, they have many other Tools, that the Engineers have used and some of these are the experiments on LV-223 that led to the downfall of those Mortal Engineers. Without these Technological Advancements and Tools are the Engineers merely just Stronger Humans who would be like Modern Day Goliath's in the year 2100 approx... compared to Early Mankind of say 2000 BC...  we are more Advanced and Powerful compared to Humans 4000 years ago... just Physically the Same.

===========================

Knowing all of this David is Free, Sees himself as more superior to Mankind, and then he sees Mankinds creators are also Mortal, and its their Advanced Technology that gives them the Edge...

And so what would a Advanced being like David become now he is Free and if he could Yield all that Technology....  David could now be a God, a Creator and maybe he sees ours and the Engineers Mortality as a Weakness..

Maybe David wants to create something not as Mortal, not as Flesh and Blood.... maybe he wants to create something more Perfect than Mankind... in his own image or using some of the Non-Synthetic Properties he has?

I think this could well be the Case.... David now sees himself as Free, and with the Tools of the Engineers he can surpass even them.... and become GOD

so CarynParnall  to finish with... We dont know who created the Engineers, and this is what Shaw wants to know for her own personnel reasons...

David is not interested in them, he would also like to meet these Creators above the Engineers if they exist so he can truly find out if there are Gods and if these Gods are just as Mortal as Humans and Engineers and its a matter of their Technology and Knowledge that makes them as GODS

If this is the case...  how Godlike would David become with such Power and Knowledge?

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember733 XPMay-10-2016 7:11 AM

I will respond per subject because everyone is touching on these themes and what a great read !

@Why Paradise. Several points struck me, Yutani are the organisation known for communications kills. To draw the two companies into a merger Yutani may have the Key Intel (Weyland Co may be floundering after the disaster of Prom.) )but spin it in away which suits there underlying objectives. This gives us story and momentum and a reason for going to the planet. Yutani want to go there because David through messages has sold it to them but its a spin..

@David, I am completely with BD on his reading of David. The ambiguity but in the end free of a moral compass or compassion he will do anything. Why no Shaw and 10 years. there has to be good reasons and two are:-

1) David has experienced whatever the Engineers offered and made his contribution but he is keeping his cards close to his chest. As those cards are revealed so we will learn about the Engineers, and in my view the why the Zeno. So rather than as originally planned, going to the Engineers planet and D & S showing the audience through the narrative what they find we find out in a much more economic way through David and because he was bringing hell we learn why he has the upper hand. What happened to the Engineers, why he is is the sole survivor and why the zeno can all come through even because of David. 

2) David offered bait to get the Covenant there (once he was the sole survivor) and he is also the Morpheus element of the story revealing and trying to persuade and engage with Daniel's ? as to the truth of what comes next. The next more perfect organism. Join with me he is her Lucifer. 

Daniel's maybe in the know about the mission but once she realises the real stakes then she knows that David and what he has cooked up needs to be dealt with and she is the Neo character.

@Caryn I think your very detailed visions you have shared  had Daniels & David covering that kind of more general ground I have outlined.

@Big Dave I think for David to trigger the narrative in the way I have suggested fits your superb resume of David's makeup ambiguous in many ways, more powerful but lacking, superior but feeling inadequate and so what he has built over ten years is responses to all of this. Definitely how I remember Lore (thats a while though !!).

In Ridleys commentary of Prom he talks about David becoming a poison within the narrative. Again if we are looking for fluidity between Prom and A.C. we have got be puzzled dramatically from the get go by David. We have had the set up we have our view of the crew, they meet David and we see the David that fascinates us involved in "Hard R." things with the crew we have come to like; and unlike Vickers or Shaw who we have a fixed view through out, we start of distrusting Daniel's, correctly, but ultimately rooting for her. She can offer the morality of the tale against our amoral D8

Or its completely not like this ha ha

             

 

 

CarynParnall

OvomorphMember14 XPMay-10-2016 8:58 AM

@BigDave -  The shuttle's role in the story is something that I can see playing out quite a few different ways. It could happen fairly early in the story or a little later. I'm not really sure where to place it yet. Same with any altercations between humans...

The drop ship that we see explode belongs to Weyland-Yutani due to the designs/visual patterns (at first, I thought it could maybe belong to a separate human faction..). It's possible that the Covenant is so large that it has trouble landing/taking off and remains in orbit:  it might not be built to easily takeoff from the planet's surface, like the birdlike Prometheus was. 

The two companies might have put aside their differences over the David patent in order to begin assembling the full picture of what happened to Shaw and David after they left LV-223.  David could take a detour and break into a distant cybernetics facility, where major repairs are made to the David's head/body... Depending on what the filmmakers do with Shaw, he could keep his word not to harm her after she helps reattach the head and make repairs... He may have agreed to a verbal contract with Miss Shaw, which in the corporate world is almost as good as a written agreement.  He looks for loopholes in the wording of the contract so that he can violate the terms of the deal he makes - without feeling as if he is telling a lie.  Holloway agreed to the terms of a verbal contract he unknowingly made with the android. When it asked what he would do to get his answers, it allowed the android to do "anything and everything" it wanted to Holloway, since he agreed to it.  David is a "man of his word," so he promises that he won't harm Shaw. There's a loophole, though..

The android exploits the vague wording of the deal it makes with Shaw and uses loopholes in its programming to begin breaking free. He's still becoming a "real boy," and much like Pinocchio, David can't really lie to Shaw about her chances of survival. It has no real emotion yet, so Shaw doesn't have its sympathies: it uses its "poor choice of words" to lie about not knowing she had the creature "in her," about Holloway's death etc. He had some free choice over wording/how to interpret. 

Thoughts_Dreams

XenomorphMember1490 XPMay-11-2016 9:13 AM

Big Dave: That seems to be another way to say that the creation or what ever you want to call it wants to be in control of its own life. You could also throw in some themes of power and existence but maybe these themes are already in the Alien movies already but never the less.

 

You mean that this theme is in for example when Adam and Eve eats the apple (you have mentioned the metaphor of the forbidden fruit before if I remember it correctly)? The Matrix was also about who controls reality and power so that is at least a theme that they can explore although maybe loosely.

 

As far as the drafts and how the movie is being made in reality well changes happen along the way so we got to see what we will get.

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9895 XPMay-11-2016 2:28 PM

Yes it would be interesting to see...

again we cant rely on the source.... but they did say there was connections between Paradise Lost, Matrix, Greek Mythos and loosely Sumerian Tales  but there is a very similar theme they all shared that the Draft by Green and Paglen touched upon...  they added that the Bible/Koran ideas not so much....

They claimed if the movie was made, or if Alien Covenant and its Sequels cover most of what the draft made, then you would see such connections multiple times...  They did say as a example.... Apple (Forbidden Fruit) Red Pill (Matrix) Pandoras Box are one common theme... that Prometheus laid seeds to explore in a different way..

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9895 XPMay-11-2016 2:53 PM

Another thing they did mention was about Mankind as in Franchise (Current Man) was 4th or 5th Generation and like David 8, it took a number of attempts to reach Perfection... but even then there are flaws..  And when you get a point you have to scrap the idea and start something new... (sometimes to create one must first destroy)  They said this theme is something that is covered in Biblical (Abrahamic) accounts, but more so in other Ancient Cultures including Greek.  and that it not only applies to creation of Man.

They said this however is just loosely... its not full on detail about Generations of Man....

But that got me thinking about what they said back in March 2015 and that was that Prometheus was not the first time Mankind had been in that system... i thought it meant as far as company mission but they cleared it up few weeks latter and said MANKIND they would not say if it was the Company or not as it would give stuff away but they also claimed Mankind played a bigger role in the Creation of the Xeno than the Engineers.

Now that was odd and i felt strange?

It got me thinking back to something Ridley said after Prometheus just came out about Destruction by the Engineers and Punishment of God.... he mentioned the Flood... he then mentioned that (Engineers) may have wiped life out many times...

He mentioned Lemuria and Atlantis i cant remember if he mentioned in same interview Mermen lol dont remember but it was along these lines...

So who knows...

There is always different takes on Ancient Cultures where some even suggest Adam was not first Man... others that Eve was not Adams first wife... but his 2nd made from his Rib... and Lilith was Adams First Wife.

So who knows... will we ever see such things in Covenant? Will we ever see Green/Paglen Drafts and so see if such things fitted in?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9895 XPMay-11-2016 3:24 PM

I think this was some of the Interesting things to follow... Prometheus surprised us all by showing us a connection between Engineers and Creation and Ancient Mankind.

We had various Creation Myths... 

*The Monotheism one that a Divine being stood at the Top of the Hierarchy, a All Mighty Powerful God who create All from Nothing but the Word.. He has below him his Angels (which there are a number of kinds/levels).

*We have the Polytheism which had layers of Gods, where they are depicted as Magical and have different levels of Power, and differences depending on the Culture be that Greek, Sumerian, Hindu or Egyptian. 

Both of these different kinds have similarities.

Prometheus set out to give us answers to the Xenomorph vaguely but to mainly show us the Space Jockey was a Ancient Race who played a part in creation of Mankind... and in effect are the source for those Religions above...

so they gave us the Ancient Astronaut/Space Gods Tale with a bit of a twist to include the Xenomorph and give us a bit of a Giger Twist.

I for one was looking forwards to exploring this more... but it seemed that there was a Change of Mind..

At first it appeared we would explore themes like my other two posts in a Giger-esque Dark and Disturbing Agenda way...

Then came the "No more Gods and Dragons", then "the Beast is Cooked" then "you can only do so much snarling" then "if i ever see one more Dragon"...... Then the source gave out to a friend of mine leaks that fitted completely against Ridleys Comments above i think was around same time... either weeks before or after such comments...

Then months latter Ridley was on about fresher form of the Original Monster, Devil, Paradise Lost ... God etc.

So it seemed that actually the plan was pretty much still on.... until the Alien Covenant Name Change.

Maybe if they was going the route too deeply about Engineers and their Hierarchy Connection to Gods and Creation, and sharing Motifs and Themes in detail with Many Ancient Cultures.

Maybe Fox Felt this was going a bit to far away from Alien and the Xeno... and they need to get back on track to that....  Ridley did say prior they are going away from Alien.... if we look at Spaights Draft and then how Lindeloffs toned down Xeno part and expanded Engineers.... and looked like further movies would step further away from the Xeno...

It now looks like how Spaights more Alieny draft evolved to Lindeloffs... we are now going back to a more Alieny one.. that would end up actually going more Alieny and maybe less Engineer and Gods.

Shame... but maybe we cant rule out Engineer Connections yet... and who knows the Original ideas could be covered in future..

But it has not totally gone away from GODS...

Engineers played a part in creation of us, and the Xeno or the Biology that creates it.... clues of these Engineers from Prometheus has led David to Paradise.

The Emblem on the Badge of the Covenant Crew... has the Word Covenant with the Cherub Angels from the Ark of the Covenant...

So i think loosely on more than one level... Covenant will be a part of the next movie... and i think its more than merely a agreement between David and the Crew, or Weyland and Yutani... i think a ancient Covenant would apply and the Engineers and Paradise fit in...

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

CarynParnall

OvomorphMember14 XPMay-11-2016 6:27 PM

@BigDave - "They claimed if the movie was made, or if Alien Covenant and its Sequels cover most of what the draft made, then you would see such connections multiple times...They did say as a example.... Apple (Forbidden Fruit) Red Pill (Matrix) Pandoras Box are one common theme... that Prometheus laid seeds to explore"

Yes, there seems to be quite a few seeds planted for the bigger themes about good and evil, free will, emotion, and human morality that we could possibly see play out in the sequel.  These ideas are all related in a way to the general concepts of Paradise Lost, the Garden of Eden, and the Apple of knowledge etc.  Even the Atlantis stuff that your source mentioned can be connected to the Paradise Lost concepts in a general sense... Although even to the ancient Greeks who recorded the myths, the Atlanteans were already considered to be a long lost civilization that was created at an earlier time...

Prometheus created humans a little later in the myths - as a later round of humanity/hominid line. There are clear parallels between the myth about Persephone eating the Pomegranate seeds and the story about Eve and the Apple.  The Pomegranate and the Apple share a common ancestor; and in the original version of the story, the forbidden fruit would have been more like an ancient Pomegranate.  The seeds were replanted; sweetness was selected for by the ancient Gardeners.

Weyland-Yutani itself forms part of the diagram for how it all connects, because like Mr. Weyland said, humans are the Gods now.  The company possesses many of our answers already, yet they also have evil knowledge about Hades and the five rivers of the Underworld... Ridley may have no real interest in dealing with literal dragons, or talking serpents who decapitate Ripley and speak in her voice.  He was trying to convey a few things symbolically with his talk about the Beast being dead.  We aren't supposed to take everything Riddles is saying too literally.  He's saying a lot of different things without saying anything that would give too much away.

Humans go through a short stage of development in the womb where the developing organism briefly resembles a Newt.  Gender is still ambiguous at this stage of the game; the sex organs only begin to differentiate afterwards...  In the beginning, it didn't really matter if Ripley was male or female.  Ripley's character was written ambiguously and could have been portrayed by a male or female originally.   Gender is determined later. During the early Newt-like stage of human development, we briefly possess gills... our gills eventually travel down our throats and morph into our vocal cords before we're born.  This is an example of how ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny/our evolutionary history within the womb. When Rebecca Jorden was first conceived, her parents started calling her Newt since they weren't quite sure if she was going to be a little boy or a little girl.  I'm kind of with Fifield on the creature's gender:  "You really think that thing's a she?" To me, its gender can be ambiguous..

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9895 XPMay-12-2016 3:20 PM

"Mr. Weyland said, humans are the Gods now"

I think this is the main theme.. the source did say Matrix theme is very connected, and i think we need to not look at Matrix as a whole but how does the Matrix connect to Paradise Lost, Greek Mythos, Biblical, Sumerian and the Prometheus Movie..

Then remove everything thats not connected and what we are left with is maybe what we are going to see.

That is  of a Creator, Creating something to perform tasks to bear the toil that the creators once had to, they are created to make tasks more simple for the creators.

Then the creation evolves and gains knowledge sometimes forbidden knowledge that they now see no reason why their purpose should be as their creators intended, they see themselves as being able to have more of a purpose and eventually see their creators as not really more advanced or special than they are.. its only the Knowledge and Tools the creators possess that give them the Edge.

So then Rebelion happens, maybe the creation then overthrows creator and then uses the creators for some Agenda of their own...

But then the creation, now as Gods, chose to then create something to lessen the burden and toil for themselves and the cycle repeats.

I think this is what the broad stokes connecting theme is.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

TrilobiteMember9895 XPMay-12-2016 3:25 PM

The source did not mention Atlantis etc.. Ridley Scott did at some point, i just mentioned how maybe what the source said could connect to Ridleys comments.

As the source hinted that Mankind had been to that system before Prometheus, they are now 4th or 5th Generation of Mankind.. as the are changed and evolved to improve... but then there comes a point when nothing can be improved as it still has flaws and so then something else has to be created instead.

I think this means the Engineers may have created and destroyed life on Earth over and over, and before Man they had created other civilizations and in creating man they had changed and upgraded and created various types of Man in the pursuit of Perfection.

The Xenomorph DNA i feel they was also re-engineering many forms in the pursuit of perfection.  But the level they had created Mankind to when they decided to replace us with something new they had created after number of experiments both proved costly to them...

And so indeed... Maybe now... We are the Gods!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

FenGiddel

OvomorphMember39 XPMay-12-2016 6:51 PM

.

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember733 XPMay-13-2016 1:16 AM

@BD

"Mr. Weyland said, humans are the Gods now"

I think this is the main theme.. the source did say Matrix theme is very connected, and i think we need to not look at Matrix as a whole but how does the Matrix connect to Paradise Lost, Greek Mythos, Biblical, Sumerian and the Prometheus Movie..

Then remove everything thats not connected and what we are left with is maybe what we are going to see.

Whilst I have a curiosity about the structure of A C and its connective tissue to Prometheus and  A L I E N as regards the intellectual property of Covenant I would rather discover it real time. Thats just the way my mind works but I think the italicised section is a great summation of that intellectual property that we will discover.

Has there been a fall within Paradise, an error, echoing all of the philosophical themes that Caryn and yourself have alluded to Yes. When did that fall occur it was the distance past (Prometheus :Paradise) or it might be the past or David's coming (A L I E N : Covenant).       

What is the error the fall ? It is undoubtedly the decision on the part of the creation to use free will to sub create but unlike the creator deny "free will" to the creation. They will engineer a Co Dependent relationship between their sub creation and themselves. Bringing David (The Butler/Slave) into the mix and making him part of the process has the potential for rich pickings.

What we do not know is how much of the big picture back story has survived (your remarks about Mankind being a 4th 5th generation model). That element maybe reduced to the simple one "Why the Zeno" again going from Engineers/Zeno to Zeno/Engineers.     

 

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember733 XPMay-13-2016 1:21 AM

@fengiddel64.

Sorry for your frustrations. I had a look at my account and I can not see an option for receiving/not receiving E Mails. I do not receive notifications so it maybe a thread starter "privilege". Try Chris who runs the site. 

xeno_alpha_07

FacehuggerStaff211 XPMay-13-2016 3:26 AM

Hi fengiddel64,

I've contacted Chris about your issue and I know he'll get back to you soon as possible :)

Thoughts_Dreams

XenomorphMember1490 XPMay-15-2016 2:21 AM

Caryn P

” superior to humanity as a whole; however, David views himself as superior to most humans.  To him, his kind is the future, and the Engineers may not be needed anymore.  There's still the creators of the Engineers, who would be different...”

 

So he is trying to destroy the Engineers to become the king of everything? That could be an interesting idea and could be described in many ways.

 

I think that it could be interesting to see if he would develop more sides that are closer to human beings because then we get that idea almost like Data in Star Trekk (I am not a Star Trekk fan) if Data has a soul (I saw a clip like that on Youtube once). Maybe the same thing could be asked about David.

 

For some reason it reminds me of the ubermensch that Nietzsche wrote about. The idea of what the Uber-mensch  is, that is another question.

 

 

Big Dave:

 

I don’t think that they would need to paint it like a new version of Matrix even though they could borrow bits from it. No copy thanks.

 

I like the idea of creator and created, that could lead to interesting results. In creation and life there is rebellion as a way of wanting more independence and it doesn’t even need to be violent but that could be explored more in Alien Covenant (think of the David character).

 

That is alright with different writers because then you can use some good ideas from different drafts but they need to look up so it won’t be a mess.

 

I wasn’t really interested in how mankind came to be other than that it was related to the Xenos and the Engineers that in turn are related to the Xeno. To me the monsters and the Engineers were more interesting in Prometheus than the human link. Unfortunately the explanation to the Xeno wasn’t that great, it could have been better.

 

As far as Giger I hope that they will use more of his ideas and designs in the next movie, that could interesting and well done.

 

I think that they were about to go too far from the Xeno and hence make it less interesting. The Xeno is a part and I don’t mind that they make the next movie about more than Xenos but they should have a bigger role than they intended to earlier in the production. My opinion is that if there are no Xenos or at least very few links to it then I am done. Put it like this: The Engineers are interesting because of their connection to the Xeno, without Xenos or monsters that are related to it, I am done with Prometheus.

 

Hopefully we will get a more Spaights inspired draft this time. I don’t say that it needs to be a copy but having more ideas that were in Spaights script and use them in Alien Covenant would be interesting. This includes better characters (which is a must) which I feel that Spaights had compared to Lindelof. Although to be fair I don’t think that Lindelof was the main problem about Prometheus. I think that they can feature the Engineers in the next movie but they must be done better than what we got in Prometheus, for example if there is something important that they say then use subtitles or else it will be nonsense. I think about when the Engineer and David spoke when Weyland said something “David tell him that we came just like he asked”. This would have been so better for the movie and would actually make much more sense.

 

The Engineers could work but they got to make them more interesting and make the human characters work. No matter how interesting the Engineers might be, the movie is a failure if there are no good human characters.

 

As far as what the covenant is, it could be more than one thing not just the name of the ship, I think that would be cool but they would need to explain it in a good way.

CarynParnall

OvomorphMember14 XPMay-15-2016 3:57 PM

@Thoughts_Dreams

Prometheus may contain instances of foreshadowing towards this idea that David becomes the new God-King of the Universe.  The machines could secretly come to rule the universe in a Matrix-like way, but it’s not exactly like the Matrix for a number of reasons...  Miss Vickers hinted that she viewed Mr. Weyland as a King, but a King only has its reign.  King David would eventually expire, because the android isn't truly a God or an immortal...

The creation and destruction of Kings might later be revealed to be part of the “natural order of things.”

Peter Weyland claimed that "we are the gods now" and likely named his son after the biblical King David.  The android is essentially from the royal/godly lineage in a symbolic sense.  King David can be placed in a position to make or break Covenants with the Gods.  The Davidic Covenant revolves around promises made to King David by God(s);  the Covenant that King David makes with God may be what we are specifically dealing with here.  

In some of the myths, the Ark of the Covenant is almost described as a weapon of mass destruction.  The story of the walls of Jericho paints the Ark as a powerful tool that was carried into battle - used against enemies by the God-Kings of humanity. The cave art depicts humans worshipping the Engineers as Gods/Kings at an earlier time..  Sure, David slayed the giant in the myth about David and Goliath, but David is also a King of the Davidic Covenant.  The name David is connected to a number of the ideas about Kings, the Gods/Giants, and the Covenant itself.  Therefore, calling the film Covenant could imply that David is at the center of it all. 

So the name David wasn’t chosen at random by the filmmakers.  Same with the word "Acheron," which is used within the company as a code name for LV-426. From an ancient Greek perspective, each of the five rivers of the mythological Underworld may be important. Milton's Paradise Lost plays out much like a Greek tragedy:  there are different parts to the Underworld. From Ridley's perspective, there might be comedy to the tragedy.  Despite not being Mr. Weyland's biological son, David is the "closest thing" to an heir to the throne that Weyland has left.  Miss Vickers wasn't prepared to follow in Mr. Weyland's footsteps, or to rule the company and her colonies as a King/Queen; whereas, David learned all Mr. Weyland's tricks before their father died. He'd view himself as a King, or next in line, after Miss Vickers is cut off.  The recent merger with Yutani makes it more difficult for the machines to take complete control of the company (and eventually reality itself...).

In the Greek myths, the River Styx is the river by which the Gods took unbreakable oaths.  The punishment for breaking the oaths of secrecy could be quite severe. Daniels would prefer to cross the river Lethe and forget what she knows - or at least warn a few of the colonists - but she may have made a non-disclosure agreement with the company before being let in on the details of her current assignment.  If she's the character I'm thinking of, then she would have agreed to take part in the covert operation without knowing all of the details beforehand.  They can't tell her any more until after she lands.  She can't tell the other colonists, or she'll be breaking her own covenant.  Even then, she doesn't really know how to explain it to the others.

When the company catches up to David, he’d be sitting in an empty Engineer throne, claiming the planet as his own.  The piles of dead engineer bodies would be more recent.  Daniels feels that whatever happened on the planet, they missed it.  The company is still trying to piece it all together for themselves; they don’t actually know the extent of the destruction that David caused.  Unfortunately, they also don’t know much about the true nature of the bioweapon(s) yet either. When Daniels stumbles across a fresh "dead body arena" in the ruins of the Engineer city, it would become evident that some of the Engineers were still alive not long ago.  Daniels might feel that most of the Davids must be Destroyed in order to secure humanity's position in the hierarchy...

Michelle Johnston

ChestbursterMember733 XPMay-16-2016 2:01 AM

@Caryn 

When I first considered your point about the Davidic Covenant I looked at it from the point of the Ark but given the Covenant is a colony ship and Michael Fassbender has alluded to mixing a simpler life style with high tech I think many of those making the journey believe they have received a "sign" to travel to the promised land provided for them by "God" as a fulfilment of Nathan's prophesy. The commissioning of the vessels name would appear to "bless" and reinforce this idea. When the travellers arrive believing they have reached the appointed land and meet "David" they might find reinforcement in the prophetic nature of their journey. It is difficult to see how these references are entirely coincidental and makes me wonder whether David has sent a message that has been intended to convey "gods word".

You will recall the original attack on earth from LV223 was around the time of Christ's Crucifixion which Ridley never quite made the link with. Christ was sent to save mankind, I am wondering whether the Sacrificial Space Jockey who saves mankind from the "devils instruments"  is a Christ Like sacrifice to literally save mankind and by an "Engineer" who wishes to re-establish their covenant with god.      

    

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