What happens to Shaw after Prometheus in Alien: Covenant - Fan Theory32,732 Views122 RepliesAdd A Reply
What was a common theme throughout Prometheus which echoed personally with the character Shaw? The ability to create life. Originally thought to be infertile, when exposed the Alien matter on LV-223, by means of impregnation by Holloway, we learned Shaw was able to overcome her infertility and give birth to what became the Trilobite.
The key theme here is Shaw and her ability to create life, a trait only women posses.
My theory is this: Shaw is manipulated and used by David as a means to give birth and spawn a new Alien. A female reproductive system is required to complete a specific process by which David can create a new Organism. Not necessarily a Xenomorph, but something that has the ability to create life itself.
You'll notice, Holloway never gave birth to an Alien (despite doing so in early drafts of the script). It was Shaw, who gave birth to a Facehugger-like creature. Something capable of creating new life by means of "seeding" a host.
The only other crew infected by any Alien matter on LV-223 were male and they merely transformed into zombie-like monsters.
It is my theory (of many) that David uses Shaw, whether by means of infecting her with new Alien matter or by using her as a missing puzzle piece, to set in motion a chain of events which eventually lead to the birth / creation of the Xenomorph.
Building off of my last topic, this could explain why Shaw isn't in Alien: Covenant. Maybe what we see of Shaw isn't actually "Shaw" at all, anymore, but something else.
It's a far fetched theory, but anything is possible. What do you think?
I really like this theory Chris!
I've been thinking along those lines too. It would explain why Noomi may not be in the movie, but her character appears in an altered form. Could she become the Sacrificial Female, part of the Giger birthing machine?
Oh I hope we see that, just imagine it. H.R. would be well pleased. I think Ridley will want to incorporate more Giger darkness in Covenant. He appreciates the great debt the Franchise owes him!
"Let The Cosmic Incubation Begin" ~ H.R. Giger
That could be interesting, I wouldn't mind if Noomi Rapace is in as long as it is something good.
I dont think your far off Chris... i have gone into detail in the Topic Shaw.
i think Shaw will be a Plot Device maybe.... i cant see them just ignore her... So we are left with.
1) Shaw does not get to Paradise or where ever the Covenant Lands.. she either.
a... goes some place else... but why and with who?
b... or something happens to her before she arrives?
Maybe we shall see this in the 3rd movie as a Flash Back?
2) Shaw did get to Paradise, but something happened to her in the aftermath but we are not shown this as Covenant is set after the said aftermath. But we wont see this maybe as Flash Back in the 3rd movie.
3) We can take either of these things but only show the aftermath... where we find out what happened to Shaw... but we wont be shown what happened or what events...
Just as the Space Jockey we can piece together what happened.... but not how exactly this happened and when.... we are just left with the Body Chest Busted and the rest of Alien gives us clues that we can make some rough guesses to what became of the Space Jockey.
and i feel thats what we shall see of Shaw....
After Covenant.... the next movie.... will it show us what happened as far as Flash Backs? Or is only a Prop Remains of Shaw the last time we will ever see her in the franchise...
I hope we dont even get a body, or any clues... and she simply is not there....
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Further Expanding Chris post Lone....
As your post covers... yes again could be what is going on.....
Now again since the U-Turn maybe... the information the Source gave me can maybe never be validated... but at the time of the Shaw dies rumors...
In answer to that the source said.... simply "she Technically does not die" what does that mean? but this supposed information was based on the Paglen/Green Drafts....
But still this does not rule out this idea to be True.... that Shaw is used somehow in the Process to create something new...
Be that Chest Busted.....Evolved into a Hybrid.... or Plugged into some Gigeresque Contraption and used as part of the Birthing Cycle...
The source did say they saw some concept of a humanoid being, cruciform attached to some Bio-Mechanical Construction much like the Robot Girl from Superman 3 they said it was like a Giger version of that and also similar to the way the Deacon ended up in the Fire and Stone Comics....
Again... we maybe never find out if thats true... but thats not to say that something similar could happen in Alien Covenant
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
So when we look at that last image you posted Lone
If we found something similar in Alien Covenant as far as Shaws Fate, i think that would be extremely interesting and fingers crossed... if they are to kill Shaw off at least have it as some plot device like this.. where she does not even have to be cast.... a simple replica of her mutated and connected to some Giger Type Machine would be Awesome..
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
That could be interesting, I wouldn't mind if Noomi Rapace is in it as long as it is something good. Unlike maybe a lot here I absolutely disliked the Shaw character she was one of the reasons why Prometheus was worse than it could have been.
If they will have her in it she could maybe have died but put back into some sort of terminator character. Imagine Re-animator mixed with Terminator, loosely. Her personality must be changed because:
- She really isn’t Shaw anymore
- Her character in Prometheus was terrible
To elaborate on 2) I would find it painful to endure a two hour movie where Shaw would be seen a lot, especially if she would be the way she was in Prometheus. If she would have been changed a bit so less of the religious crap and less nativity and stupidity then she could maybe work but not if she would be the way she was in Prometheus. Sorry if I sound so angry when I discuss Shaw I don’t mean to make it sound like that and to be fair she wasn’t the only problem in Prometheus but she was an important part and got a lot of screen time so when they have her a lot in the movie and when it is also a poorly written character it makes the movie worse than it could have been. Prometheus also has good things about it (the Engineer, the monsters, the landscape, and David, for example) even though they could have been a lot better. Hopefully they will keep David with the personality that he had in Prometheus (if you can describe a robot with the word personality, heh) for Covenant. David was a very curious droid so imagine how that could be used in Covenant so this will be interesting. I wouldn’t mind seeing Idris Elba in a role in Alien Covenant since I think that he did well in Prometheus, am I alone with this opinion here?
Maybe they could have her on the ship and she gets sick from something eventually something that she got from LV-223. Maybe that could be explained with that there was something that went wrong with the suit so she got an infection and died from that. Since David is a droid he can’t get sick so that would explain why David survived and Shaw didn’t.
I get sort of curious when you mention that she technically doesn’t die? I wonder what that means. Shaw as a cyborg with a drastically (capital D) changed personality could work. She could also be plugged into some machine so she becomes a part of a machine that has some purpose something loosely connected to life like you mentioned. What mentioned about the robot girl seems interesting, that could work if it is done right. By doing this they could get the Shaw character right, something that I never thought that I would say ever.
I dont think either Shaw or David have any involvment in the creation of the Xenomorph. It already exists. Remember that in Prometheus the other three Cryopods in the Juggernaut are chest bursted. And the roof mural in the head room have a Xeno egg which is held by Xenohands. The Xeno have existed atleast 2000 years (perhaps longer) before Prometheus.
Your forgetting Quantum Singularities and Worm Holes.. lol maybe it can lead to the Xeno via David..... but this is all a bit TERMINATOR for me... i.e John Connor Sends Reese back to protect his Mother so John Connor can be born.... but wait sending Reese back is how John Connor is born as he is the Father.... nope i want to avoid a similar Paradox kind of plot...
However when i saw Prometheus Trailer i was led to David being the Xenomorph Origins.. i saw we had a Robot who was a bit Pinocchio who maybe wanted to be a Boy... he brings about the chain of events that creates the Trilobite and then he manages to Evolve himself into a Bio-Mechanical Being....
I thought this because of how the Engineer standing over Shaw in the Trailer looked nothing like the Space Jockey size and only looked Human sized....
I thought it was David and in the end David gets Face Hugged and so he wanted to play God.. then become more Mortal and his playing God creation then Face Hugged him to create the first Bio-mechanical Xenomorph Progenitor.
I was wrong lol... but that does not mean they cant go that route in Covenant... dont forget Fasbender plays more than one role... he plays a doppelganger too and that does not have to mean another David 8... nope it could be a Human that David 8 was modeled after?
The key thing is Ridley has big plans for David and how he is back in one peice he wont give it away and so its a major part of the Plot... the Synopsis also puts a emphasis on SYNTHETIC David 8.... so is there a none synthetic... or does David become non Synthetic? Or the other David?
Again i hope not as far as the Xeno origins... because it appeared the Xeno Eggs and Derelict had been there a long time.. more than 20-30 years i.e not after the events of Prometheus..
Ridley did say before that the Derelict had been there for thousands of years and even went further after Prometheus by saying the Derelict ended there within a few hundred years of the outbreak that killed the Engineers off some 2000 years prior.
Micheal Beign said Alien Covenant is set thousands of years prior... when its set 10.... but maybe it could be as in Prometheus is set 30 years or so before Alien...but the Sacrificial Scene is set hundreds of thousands of years or millions prior to Alien.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Prometheus 2 was set up to follow Shaws Questions... and it could have given her a time to improve as far as interesting dialog and dynamic with David.
But as i said before... a Prometheus 2 where David and Shaw find some beings related to the Engineers who dont take kindly to Mankind, or at least they are not Benevolent...
This does not bold well for them, especially after what the Last Engineer did to some of the crew and David.... David was asking the Engineer Questions... and asked more in deleted scenes (and got more answers too) but the theatrical is how they want the Engineers portrayed and well he never had much to say to David or his Questions on behalf of Weyland...
He was not gonna answer those questions, but just rip Davids head off then proceed with the mission to destroy mankind..
So if the beings they found had a similar view of David and Shaw, then she wont get many answers not from the Engineers and how can they survive and what kind of movie would be seeing David and Shaw trying to get answers and then trying to escape some angry Gods..
Well David is bringing Hell with him and the Cargo will turn the tables on the Engineers....
This is what we may have seen, but again a few Engineers, David and Shaw and Hell unleashed on the Engineers is not going to fill up a movie... it would need more Humans... so maybe a side LV-223 plot?
But they have changed the way the movie is going now and so Shaw may just be a Plot Device.....
But again think about it.... colony ship of 9 crew and maybe a David.. with another David and something evolving on Paradise and all Hell breaking loose and maybe or maybe not no Engineers (maybe as Flash Backs, maybe as visual clues to Davids Narative) but then in this aftermath we are to get 1-2 more movies before Alien?
Nope they have to be running more than a plot of Colony Crew, find Paradise and David and Hell breaks out and Xeno related or Xenos are on the lose... then the survivors make it to another 2 movies?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Hopefully the Covenant is colony ship of a 1000 +, I'd love to see 1000 Fifield creatures or what Holloway was going to become?
What if the Engineers(or their superiors) have harnessed a black hole?! Maybe they keep it buried deep in a temple.
I don't think we will see her at all. Whilst we all love the story its worth remembering that this is a money making venture for the studio. If they need to they can then bring her back into the story a number of ways. The ideas noted above are good and could easily be a flash back type opening as per Prometheus.
That said the easiest way would be for her to be in cryo sleep as it was a long trip and David could just keep her on ice. So can the studio.
My gut feel is that David will use her to create life but life like him. He cannot reproduce and I think that will be what drives him and we may find that was what drove the engineers.
David become non Synthetic?
Like in using Shaws body? Could it be that David have found a ways to attach his head onto Shaws body? Sound farfetched, i know but that would explain the "technically she is not dead" bit. She lives with Davids head!
That was one thing i was thinking before... what if he somehow uses her Body lol.... but that wont be the case as it would need Rappace being Cast... unless she has Davids head....
As far as the " "technically she is not dead" part this again was from a supposed leak about the Paglen and Green draft.... the person would no longer give information but they did give a few hints as to what may been behind the old Plot... but not in detail and well there is no way any of this can be confirmed with Alien Covenant... But the person claims what was said was the Draft as of October 2014 which has gone for a change of direction now.... like Spaights did to Lindeloffs.
So its a case of until a copy of Paglen/Green Draft is leaked we may never know.... but things i was told and put on here prior to time when Ridley said they are not covering the Xeno at all and moving away and before Ridley came out with Paradise lost links..... its seemed a lot of hints given by Ridley 6-8 weeks after the info i got and months after seemed to add up.
But now it could be a different kettle of fish... and so we dont know and may never know what happens to Shaw....
A few key points we have to remember that Ridley had hinted at prior to change of plans..... are..
1) We see a Engineer Ship leave LV-223 at the end of Prometheus.... we can assume in chronological order so prior to the Deacon Chest Buster? (Rules out the Deacon onboard the Ship) unless David takes a U-Turn to go back and get it.... if he is aware of what would happen in the life cycle of the Trilobite!
2) So as we see that a Engineer Ship has left LV-223 we have to assume David at least is onboard and that the ship needs David to fly it... i.e Shaw can not do so without Davids Help.
We know Shaw may not trust David, but we also know David has his own Agenda and no way does he want to remain a Head, and so even if he could with Shaws Help... Set a course for Paradise with the Juggernaught while not being connected to his Body.... i am sure David will persuade Shaw that the only way they will leave that Rock is with David put back together.
Ridley confirmed that she does put him back together... he latter says slowly! So we have to wonder in what way does that mean?
3) Ridley had said that without David, Shaw was not leaving that Place (LV-223) and without Shaw, David will remain Headless. so they need each other.... Shaw wont trust him but she has no choice...
And Ridley said once his head goes back on, Shaw is basically at what ever whim he has and he can be dangerous.
This would imply that if we assume David is put back together, he may explain to Shaw the only way she can survive the journey is to go into Engineer Cryo-Pod....
We dont know how far or how long it takes to Paradise but we have to assume its less than 10 years.... and maybe we have to assume that Shaw cant just be standing around for how many months or longer it would take.
So once she is in Cryo-Sleep which we have to assume.... then David can do what ever he wants.... he could take the ship to Earth... could go back to LV-223 he could go to LV-426 or go to Paradise or some other place prior.
so we simply dont know if Shaw ever made it to Paradise, if she did if she was alive and Human... or even if she is still in Cryo Sleep. The only thing we can assume is that she and David departed LV-223 in 2094 and that David has to be put back together in some capacity that he can fly the ship.....
And even if all he needed was to have his head semi attached or near by his body... i would assume David would want to be attached in a way that allow him freedom to be able to do what he wants and not at a disadvantage or Mercy of Shaw...
She however would be at his Mercy.... and so as far as what happens from after that Jugernaught leaves LV-223 to when we assume it arrives on Paradise.. at some point in the future.. we just dont know where or what becomes of Shaw..
If she plays a part in the plot as far as know what happens in the movie to her... i dont think they would show any of this in the Trailers at all.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
David become non Synthetic?
I am not sure.... i think there is a tease from some of the clues and comments..
1) The Synopsis says the crew of Covenant discover the only survivor of the Doomed Prometheus Mission the SYNTHETIC David... i wondered why would they put a Emphasis on Synthetic... why not say David 8 and those who seen Prometheus would know he was Synthetic... maybe this is to tell those who never seen Prometheus about how he was a Android?
Maybe there is more to it.... These further clues may hint to that.
2) Ridley said in regards to David and being put back together, that yes he does get put back together (he does end up back in ONE PIECE) but they dont want to give it away as they have something big/special in store......
This means maybe more than sticking a head back on?
3) Fasbender is rumored to play more than one role as David... but then Ridley had not confirmed Two Davids... he merely said Fasbender will reprise his role as David 8 and a doppelganger.
Doppelganger could mean another David Android... but why not say yes Fasbender will be playing Multiple Davids? A Doppelganger does not have to mean the same person... or a twin.. it can be a look alike or kind of the same person from a different era!
This got me thinking with the other comments and Synthetic David... in Synopsis... does this imply the Doppelganger is not Synthetic?
How could this be? I think it would be a amazing Plot Device...
David 8 was released in the year 2072, he is more advanced than David 7 of which in 2071 the company had to recall many of those models.... David 8 is the only model that can self maintain himself.
Images suggest David 7 may look like David 8 and David 7 was released in the year 2068 so 4 years prior to David 8, the David 6 model released in 2062 but prior to that David 5 was in 2052 and prior to that it would appear that people could tell the Androids apart from a Human..
David 4 2042 and 10 years prior to David 5
David 3 (2035) David 2 (2028) not Weyland win Patent Lawsuit over Yutani regarding Technology used in David Androids that replicates the look and feel of Human Skin etc....
David 1 (2025) seems a basic Android...
So the Question is which Model did the David Androids start to have the appearance of Fasbender?
Was this model based of a real life Human? like how Lance Bishop Androids where created by and in likeness of Human (or so we lead to assume) Michael Bishop.
Other important things to consider are that 2034 was when Weyland first released the first FTL SEV (space exploration vehicle). Ship the Heliades
Prometheus class was released in 2072 and is stated as being Larger, Safer and Faster which can significantly increase the range of Space Exploration.
What i am getting at here is this..... what if the Covenant is a older style of FTL ship released between 2034 and 2072 and what if at some point and maybe even as early as 2025 David Androids are based off a real life Doppelganger.... a Human (Fasbender) who was part of the team involved in David Androids design?
What if this Human Doppelganger has taken part in a exciting mission to travel to a discovered far away World that could be very Earth like and no need for Tera-Forming...
If a Human David Doppelganger had set off on a long journey to find a uncharted Paradise with the Crew of Covenant maybe this ship left at some time between 2034-2072?
Maybe the crew would not be familiar with David 8 Androids... the earlier the time the less frequent David Androids are known.. The Human Crew would be shocked when they discover a Doppelganger of one of its Crew when they land on Paradise thinking they are the first to arrive?
Maybe if the crew are aware of David Androids and the Covenant set off much latter but still prior to Prometheus.... they would have no knowledge of Prometheus Mission...
I think it opens a interesting Dynamic for a David Human Doppelganger to meet a Synthetic David Android... David has a dislike and jealousy for Humans... maybe he feels like Pinocchio that he is different and sometimes wishes he was Human.
So imagine if David 8 then faces a Human Doppelganger, and more so imagine how that Doppelganger would be surprised to find a Android likeness of him on a World that this crew member would have thought that Covenant would be the first ship to land there..
This surprise and Dynamic would work better if at the time the Covenant had left on its journey... David models where basic and never looked quite so Human but still had a likeness to Fasbender but you could tell it was Synthetic still?
i am not sure if this is the case... but i think it would work very well and fit in with the clues.... David meets a Human Version of himself... he would be surprised and maybe jealous? But David 8 could then say to his Doppelganger that he is far more superior in every way.
I think a Twist like this would be great.... it would also fit in for the Covenant leaving on a Long journey a risky Long journey but worth the pay off to finally find a Earth like World..
The Synopsis to me shows the crew do not know Paradise is related to the Engineers, they would not even know who the Engineers are or what Prometheus was.... this would fit perfect.
Rather than as some speculate Covenant picks up Shaws SOS and then goes to LV-223 then follows Davids Jugernaught...
Well they would be very cautious would they not? People who assume this have taken the "another group of explorers coming in afterwards/inbound?" or what ever was said which could hint they they are following David and Shaw..
But i think the Colony ship and uncharted Paradise clue leads to me think the ship is off on a mission to a discovered potential Earth like World that is some distance away.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
so as far as the "Synthetic David" i think what we will see is either as above and a Human David well the likeness he was created in.... or that one of the David Androids will become non-Synthetic in the movie.
i think it has to point to one of either of those... I think the prior would be AWESOME! But i cant rule out the later... and especially with some comments about the Xeno Origins and when Ridley coined... how come its Bio-Mechanical as if Covenant plays some significant role in the Bio-Mechanics...
So maybe a David is evolved to be non-synthetic.. and becomes part Machine Part Flesh.... and this as a Host would then give the Black Good DNA its way to become Bio-Mechanical?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
After the discussion in the Shaw thread I went back and re listened and reread Sir Ridley's remarks through September November. Here are the key points which inform my thinking :-
1) "David getting his head back is a very idea but I am not telling you what".
2) "Noomi has a small role in the movie".
3) The Covenant "follows" the croissant with D & E to Paradise in the middle of the first act.
4) The new creature is in Act 3.
I am wondering if the prologue is the big idea a really strong start which puts David on track and Elizabeth in her plot devise role a la Chris and BD.
The first act begins with the Covenant checking out LV223 cautiously and then "following" the Croissant to Paradise. The closing of Act 1 is the amazing revelation of the beauty of Paradise the landing and the apocryphal meeting with a "benign" David.
They then explore, the audience begin to understand what Paradise really is things begin to happen, and with some of the crew suspicious, including David's counterpart, of what they are finding and then a bad ending Act 2.
Act 3 is the terror act and we see what David has been cooking up all along. There maybe several Covenants informing the story David may have a Covenant a la the poem, the Covenant and its colonisers may have a start over again with high ideals covenant.
To the poster who mentions the LV223 was 2000 years ago and the LV426 incident a few hundred years later I remember those conversations with Ridders very clearly. However I took them to be speculative and conjecture and informing where the Lindelof conversations had gone in terms of contextualising his script rewrites. I often used them to explain to those whom were confused about Prometheus what was going on just as I explained the Deacon as a disconnected riff.
If we are backing into A L I E N that may change and we may have a hard narrative which leads into the Derelict without compromising the back story of LV223. After all David has brought a croissant to Paradise this could end being the derelict. Naturally if any of you guys are aware of hard evidence why that is not possible please do put me right.
Big Dave: I would like to see what David does that brings trouble to the engineers. David clearly understands that they can mean trouble so maybe he has something prepared for them.
Yes I think that a side plot is needed even though it shouldn’t take away the main focus. Shaw’s answers are one thing but I hope to see more about the Engineer society and their monsters. The thing is how the side plot is done even though it isn’t the main thing it must be interesting enough.
Hopefully we will see some Engineers for the simple reason that they played an important role in Prometheus and that this is a follow up to a movie where the Engineers were important. Even though I hope that this movie will have a closer connection to the Alien movie (1979) I hope that the Engineers will have a role since they are a part of the development of the Xeno.
If they are going to do two more movies connected to Alien and Prometheus they need more characters and things that happen otherwise it would be difficult. It will be interesting to see hope they will do this. Maybe they will give the Weyland corporation a bigger role? This is a possibility, or that they will just do one other Prometheus/Alien movie after this before we get to Alien (1979).
Thoughts_Dreams and Michelle
Interesting points ;)
Ill start with Michelle, yes your right about the comments, a lot has changed though and we have to try and work out what comments applied to plans prior to Alien Covenant. And if other comments are now aplicable to Covenant.
Ridley has teased a lot but he has also been vague and he may be planting Red Herrings but i have more trust in Ridleys comments being relevant.... unlike anything JJ Abrahams says about his projects.
As far as David and Shaw... as i mentioned Originally the plan seemed to be to follow their Adventure.... Ridley alluded to a few things regarding that.... these are not 100% word for word.
*Shaw can not leave LV-223 without David and he cant leave LV-223 with out Shaw. They need each other and if we assume the Jugernaught that takes off near the end is them... then that means they have collaborated.
*Shaw may have trust issues with David, but she has no other choice and David is very persuasive
*She will put him back together, a few different interviews this has changed a bit from being put back together... to latter hints that she will SLOWLY put him back together.... (that mean its a Temp Fix at first to get them off LV-223?) And then they have something big in store for how David gets back together.... but one Ridley is not saying... This hints to something interesting, but i am sure one time he did say when being put back together it was not so much how his head goes on... but indeed how he becomes back in ONE PIECE... seems something Ridley is guarding and so cant be a simple re-attach of the head.
*They are off to the Engineers Homeworld for Answers, and they will find Beings who are not Gods, and are not Benevolent.
*David is bringing Hell with him, and what happens when the Bio-Weapon is used on a God? or Machine?
This threw up a interesting synopsis.... but this seems to be changed somewhat since Alien Covenant as Shaw had been not mentioned in the cast... then confirmed to play a Small Role, then she would not be joining the other Cast for shooting.. to then she is not in the Movie at all (Well Rappace).
Onto Coveant... i think some of the comments are a bit misleading...
“It’s going to be its own separate thing because they are going to the planet of the Engineers and they are going to see what happened there. It was a disaster,”
“And they will be in that alien craft that takes them there, but with a new group that’s incoming, a new group of travelers in the beginning of the first act.”
its easy to think this maybe shows us maybe "they are going" and "they will be in that alien craft that takes them there"
As in regards to the Covenant Crew... obviously he later said about the Ship they are on is called Covenant and so this with the "but with a new group that’s incoming" could make it seem like the Covenant is following the Ship that Shaw and David are on...
since this comment and synopsis people had thought that the other ship must intercept David and Shaws Jugernaught.. But we have to remember he mentions the Crew of the Covenant as in the first ACT "a new group of travelers in the beginning of the first act."
And they are expected uncharted Paradise but only find David.
This to me rules out the Covenant following them... here are a few reasons why.
*When and how do they intercept that ship and follow it? After it leaves LV-223.. how far away is Covenant when it detects the Jugernaught and pursues it?
*Are we to assume it takes David 10 years to find Paradise, or near enough? If so then did the Covenant spend same near 10 years following it shortly behind? If we consider Prometheus was a Flagship at that time well at the time it set off to LV-223 in 2091, so maybe its safe to Assume the Covenant is limited to the same kind of Speed.... can such a craft match a Engineer Ship?
*Paradise is hinted at being on the far side of the Galaxy, i would assume its further than the 39LY of the Zeta 2 System as if its close by then why are no Engineers ever coming back? Unless they are all but gone by then... i.e died thousands of years ago.
*Covenant Crew are expecting Uncharted Paradise... how would they know Paradise is what it is, from following David and Shaw... would they had heard Shaws SOS? Why would they follow that ship unless they find out its going to some place called Paradise... but how?
Shaw tells them... but she would also explain why i.e Engineers and what went down on LV-223
Or do they find out from LV-223.... Both cases they would be arriving at Paradise expecting something and cautious unless the crew is more stupid than Milburn and Fifield.
*Also if Covenant is following David and Shaw... how are they going to explain or not cover Shaw... does the Jugernaught arrive a bit before and the Covenant Crew dont know about Shaw... they simply following a Alien Ship? But then surely they would be expecting something and the Synopsis tells me when they find David... this is a suprise as they was hopping to find they was the first to that World.
No to me the comments and synopsis seems to tell me the Covenant is on a mission to check out a Earth like Potential World and they are on a long journey... they would not be aware of LV-223, Engineers, David and Shaw...
so the "a new group incoming" and "they will be in that alien craft that takes them there" applies to TWO Separate Events.
David and Shaw on the Alien Craft.... arrive after 2094 and prior to 2104
Then the Covenant is incoming afterwards and arrives around 2104 ... they only find David....
So sometime prior to the Covenant Crew arriving at Paradise... and David and Shaw setting off to Paradise... something has happened to Shaw... and maybe any remnants of the Engineers on Paradise..
All that is left is something Evolving the Engineers created... but Ridley refers in context to Covenant that the Bio-Weapon, is like a Evil Bacteria ... this could apply to the Black Goo which the Engineers created...
But the evolving creature could be something created from the use of the Engineers Evil Black Goo.... like the Trilobite... and not related to the Xeno.... but maybe implies Engineers created the Goo that leads to the Xeno...
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Interesting ideas never the less Michelle
Here is what we know.....
Act 1 will introduce a new group of explorers a Colony Crew on a Ship Called the Covenant... This Crew Believed what they would be finding is uncharted Paradise.
Upon Arrival the only inhabitant they find is David (lone survivor of Prometheus).
Act 3 will see something related to the Xenomorph unleashed.
We know little of other Acts... but when they say Act 3 i assume they mean quite later in the movie. So Prometheus Act 3 would be when Shaw had her C-Section and then Weyland was getting ready to go to speak to the Engineer.
So when im trying to figure out what is going on, and then how it connects to Alien i have a few Problems...
Ridley wanted to go away from Alien and Xeno... but there could be reasons for a U-Turn to please fans with answers sooner, and also take into account excitement for Alien 5
Alien Covenant is a Alien Prequel it will be ***ming in the back end of Alien (rear? reverse?) and they will be another 1-2 movies after Alien Covenant before we arrive at Alien...... thats a total of 2-3 Movies from after Prometheus 2094 to Alien 2122?
We are looking at about 30 years... covered in 2-3 movies... and are they going to cover Xenomorphs and survivors of Covenant Crew in 2-3 movies and 30 years? What little are we going to find out about the Engineers within those movies and 30 years..... They must of played a large part in the other Plan... Paradise Lost...
Ridley even said the 3rd new movie... would tie right into Alien directly and the Space Jockey... after this movie we would have all the answers...
So does David, the crew of Covenant and that Juggernaught end up being involved in Alien i.e Derelict?
This goes against what we are told before... Ridley had said before.
*Derelict had been there for a long long time, thousands of years.
*Prometheus came along and gave us a back story connects Space Jockey DNA and Xeno DNA in a disaster that happened 2000 years ago.
*Ridley then proposed the Engineers Technology as being Millions of years old.
*Ridley then said the Space Jockey story happend within a few hundred years of the outbreak on LV-223... and yes maybe we cant consider this to be fact.... but Ridley did say it as canon and at its basic i think he is saying that the Xenomorph, those Eggs are connected to some experiments or events the Engineers where involved in that must have some connection to LV-223 and so both events are regarding the Evil Bio-Weapons they was working on thousands of years ago until they suffered death at the hands of their own Evil Creation/Experiments.
*Micheal Beign mentioned that it was explained to him that Aliens happened thousands of years after Alien Covenant... What not 20 years approx?
There is a way this can all make sense... Ridley said we will see them all Egg, Face Huger, Chest Buster and Big Guy.... he also said he would Top the Original Chest Buster.....
Once you seen it so many times, how do you top it? Only something New and Fresher? But then how about the Xenomorph stages..?
Maybe just maybe we dont see the Xenomorph in Alien Covenant as far as timeline to the movie.. i.e not a event after 2104... so could it be Flash Backs? who knows... i know they wanted to show us how the Xeno came to be and why... but then we are going to see all the stages of the Xeno... then what would they be doing for another 2-3 movies... apart from give us Fanfare Xeno Popcorn...
So i think the movie is not going to be quite as straight forwards time wise..... Alien, Aliens, Alien 3 and Alien R where all movies that ran in order... the whole movie was set in the same time zone...
Prometheus showed clues from Ancient past... but then had a Scene that could have been set Thousands, Millions, Billions of years ago.
Why cant the same be done again? (Flash Backs).
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
so i assume.....
Alien Covenant is set 2103-2104...
We are introduced to the Covenant Crew... maybe get information on there mission... we will see them reach Paradise.... they will set down on Paradise and discover... David 8 from Prometheus.
David 8 would have already been on Paradise for sometime... the Covenant Crew would be puzzled to how he got there... I dont think David is going to be completely honest and tell everything.
Maybe we wont find out about Shaw.. until the last Act? We are going to be asking...
*What becomes of Shaw?
*What about Engineers? Are there any, and how long before the crew of Covenant find them... and are they as non Benevolent as Ridley hinted when they was working on a Prometheus sequel?
I am going to say Alien Covenant is going to be set after the events what happens when David first arrives on Paradise.. what he finds, what happens to Shaw... this is a event that happens before Alien Covenant in 2103-2104.....
But may be a event we get clues to... but wont see it... this movie is set Post/Aftermath of David leaving LV-223 and Finding Paradise.
And what happened between i think maybe we get answers a bit at the end.. which lead the next movie to cover.
Remember they was going to follow David and Shaw and going to meet Beigns related to the Engineers in search for Answers... beings who are not Gods, not Benevolent and are in some way connected to Fallen Angels... and a movie that touch up on themes from Paradise Lost... maybe also other Rebellion Stories inc Greek Titanomy which include Prometheus and his betrayal and Punishment.
We was going to steer away from full blown Xeno Fest Movie and Answers.. the Engineers where more important....
Dont forget David has his own Agenda... and was carrying Hell with him in that Cargo....
All of this sounds like a story to be told.......
That maybe Covenant we only come across the aftermath of such events...
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
BD thank you for your very fulsome reply. I tend to find this type of debate interesting not from a demand point of view (I am a fan i want this) more on how you construct an exciting interesting movie which deepens the franchise and is tentpole successful and is not ridiculously expensive to make but looks expensive and satisfies deep fans.
I think a highly enigmatic opening which deals with David 8 and Shaw's outcome but is only made clear through the subsequent narrative momentum is a possibility. Its logical in the tent pole sense and its logical in terms of positioning and creating a dramatic base.
Ridley is a classicist when it comes to construction (3 acts) so when he says the new beast is third act and the new crew are mid way 1st act I take that to mean 20 minutes in on the Covenant Crew following the croissant.
Hence my speculation about LV223 but thats all its based on and reports from the set, which mercifully have dried up, I like surprises.
Making movies is expensive and you can do some expensive things at the beginning and the end (Prometheus) but I suspect David 8 as his intentions become more transparent to the crew and whats going on acts as the information disseminator with flashbacks (Its the most economic way of telling a powerful visually demanding story). He may drive the ultimate decision to the event of LV426 but if they literally back in to A L I E N then whilst LV223 was thousands of years ago then LV426 is created (as in the Spaights version of Prom) by the events of the immediately proceeding movie so Ridley's conversational assertions that the derelict was also thousands of years ago would be a change of heart but the Lindelof version was a change of heart and never actually explained in the movie its mere back ground. The out break was 2,000 years in the movie but that does not guarantee the derelict 2000 years ago.
Making David the revelatory element of the plot and the driver of the final narrative would be for me a very powerful way to create the connective tissue between P and A.
Do we think Ridley will crash the derelict on LV426 in the next couple of movies?
I can buy the fact the derelict crashed 20 years before the Nostromo found her.
So......If the 3rd act of the Prometheus/Alien:Covenant series, shows a Juggernaut crash landing on LV426....would the public buy that??
"Look Martha!, that's the ship from Alien!! it ties it all together! So and so kept it from reachin' Earth! and crashed her!"
Is Ridley more concerned about 'how' the ship got on LV426 or 'who' created it?
I think it would be cool to see the actual crash......but, I also like the fact that it's ancient lost spaceship, thousands of years old.
It would have to be some timey wimey stuff to tie the 2000 year old derelict and a 2104 dialogue.
M Z given that was going to be the arc for Alien Engineers, indeed LV223 was LV426 originally, and I do not recall him saying he dropped the idea because it was to neat, but simply because of the grander Lindeloff visions I think it is possible.
Also, and this is my interest in character, I can think of some very powerful ways in which either David and "Shaw" are crucial to the LV426 outcome. If there is one thing he has learnt (relearnt Ripley ?) from his re establishment with the Martian, is you can drive a big science fiction movie from a very intimate focus on individual and that makes the science fiction even more real for the "average film goer".
But on this 2,000 year old derelict he has said in interviews that was the vision behind Prometheus and certainly the events they look back on to LV223 were portrayed as 2,000 years old but please correct me if I am wrong its not in the movie that the derelict had been launched with eggs. Indeed in Prom the engineers arguably never got of the ground because of the contagion and they were carrying canisters of goo not a consignment of eggs.
Michelle, I've always assumed the engineers only carry canisters of goo, they spread them through out the galaxy, then harvest the results. Much easier to let Mother nature produce the perfect organism.
I think, like James Cameron, the eggs were produce by a monster(queen Xeno) who found her way aboard through the chest cavity of the Space Jockey. That makes sense to me. Engineer out spreading the seed......Got infected, crashes on LV426...out pops the Queen...she lays a bunch of eggs...just in time for Kane. ?
MZ Thats always been my thinking but I have never been entirely comfortable with it, partly because the movie was made without the Queen notion. I know there is an artistic licence issue with the size of the Space Jockey across Prom/Alien which doesn't "worry" me but whenever Sir Ridley describes the basic proposition of the Croissant, the Space Jockey and its deadly payload and what it is was up to it alway makes me feel, with the industrial organised layout and incubation protection field, that it took off with the eggs.
Curiously because the Space Jockey is a victim in 1977 I thought its journey was benign, it became infected, crashed and spawned the eggs a la James Cameron (update 1986). Once I began over the years to become aware of the Derelict being a bomber from the very beginning I assumed the eggs were the cargo.
The beauty of science fiction is, and the enigmatic nature of all of this, is such that doors are left open for shifting interpretations. if there is an advantage that Lindelof has bequeathed the story it is that we cannot be certain or is that, excuse the pun, "shore" how far the life cyle had evolved on LV223. We have seen the mural, the monsters worshiping an Engineer, engineers in the life cycle, what looks like a christ like invocation of a zeno, or is it a deacon, but we cannot be precisely certain where the lifecyle had reached 2,000 years before and if he wants to reverse engineer (another unintended one this time) the story and bring David into the narrative of achievement they can do. As the character said in Close Encounters "We know so little". Thanks for your reply.
We did have LV-426 at first before Lindeloff proposed another World... which was a better move... as Spaights Engineers Draft had holes as far as LV-426 at the time of Aliens.... Lindeloffs does too with LV-223 but we have to assume LV-223 is destroyed by the time of Aliens? to avoid Plot Holes.
Spaights draft based on LV-426 lightly touched upon Engineers and Creation and Ancient Mankind... but it more covered the various experiments these Engineer were working on related to the Xeno and we saw more Xeno DNA.
Another interesting thing was the crashed Juggernaught... this would allow people to suspect this was the Derelict.... but in reality if you read the draft then the location of the Crash was not to far from the Engineers Temple Complex etc i.e where they was working on and hosting all these Xeno related experiments never mind clues of the Human Crews Fate...
so while it was LV-426 it was maybe a red herring that would show us potentially what happened to the Space Jockey but not what happened.... just as Prometheus people wondered does the Deacon become the one that lays the Eggs and Progenitor to the Xenomorph.. But the Deacon was a Plot Device to hint what could have happened to the Space Jockey.
So in context to Spaights draft the Space Jockey could have suffered a similar fate, thousands of years before.. that caused the remaining Engineers to go into Lock Down Mode.
The Space Jockeys ship managed to get further away and crashed on the other side of the LV-426 Moon.
But yes that could be a wrong theory and the Engineer that was Chest Busted in Spaights draft that led to the Ultramorph that was killed by Watts (Spaights Shaw) was indeed the Space Jockey/Derelict
But that maybe leaves a few flaws compared to a similar event happening thousands of years prior that crashed on a different part of the Moon.
Maybe Covenant is going the same way? It seems to be going back to the more Xeno Route of Spaights draft and less Engineer, than Lindeloffs that left more seeds to the Engineers than follow the Xeno.
So again Covenant could end in a event that does not lead to the Space Jockey but would show us clues more to how a very similar event could have taken place thousands of years prior..
But as you had said Michelle.... if we ignore everything apart from what is shown on Screen... then at no point have we seen confirmation of the Space Jockey and Derelict being there for thousands of years....
It looked Ancient, Dallas said its been there long time... and while Prometheus showed us some Xeno related Outbreak 2000 years ago it does not provide 100% clues to say the Derelict left LV-223 around the same time...
I would assume thats the case, as a Space Jockey incident related to the outbreak 2000 years ago would fit more than a event after Prometheus in 2094 that leads to the Derelict.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Going back to the Derelict and Alien... and Queen... yes one theory is the Queen laid the Eggs.... this has holes in the theory because they looked placed in a neat fashion and what of the Blue Myst... to me it looked like the Eggs was placed there under that Myst for some kind of protection.
We cant rule out the Queen laying Eggs because of the clues in Alien and Aliens..... we have the Alien DC and Egg Morph but then its do we class that as Cannon... i think we cant rule it out but i cant see how like some would accept that idea and then dismiss the Queen and Aliens.... sorry but Aliens is and will remain Cannon.
So where does that leave us? It depends if we only go by Clues on Screen and Clues only in released movies and so discount deleted scenes? Or can we use them? Can we use Ridleys comments?
Because depending what we use as clues, can lead us to different theories..
The thing with Ridley is he did in one interview leave a clue or a red herring as after years of saying the Derelict had Eggs.... he then went on to say "something evolved in the Cargo Hold, and it infected the Space Jockey" this could tease that either
1) Urns evolved into Eggs... somehow?
2) Something in the Urns Evolved... so just one Urn was compremised and then something got to the Space Jockey and the resulting Organism then somehow evolved the Urns to Eggs?
3)The evolving was something they had worked on that becomes Eggs prior to getting on the Derelict so the ship had Eggs.
But again looking at every clue including Star Beast, Gigers ideas and Prometheus can all add other clues to what went down...
Prometheus seemed to show Xeno Eggs in the fresco, it also had Face Hugers in the Mural... was these Easter Eggs that people are using as clues when they should not be.... ?
The creature holding the Egg in the fresco was i think the same creature in the other fresco.... maybe the Egg Fresco was a representation of this..
This is what i am drawn too.
What of the other Fresco... well again im drawn to it being of this one..
Then if we look at O'Bannons Star Beast concept...
This looks like the creature in the Prometheus Fresco...
Which this also looks like the Star Beast Mural
Which shows how a Sacrificial Beast is used to procreate the Star Beast Spores.. If my theory of the Fresco in Prometheus shows Prometheus Punishment by the Eagle where the Eagle is replaced with this Creature.... and if we then see this creature in other fresco in relation to Gigers Pose with the Egg i.e Creator.
Maybe just maybe these are connected some way?
I would have loved to seen this explored.. but i now think a more basic and generic explanation will be shown..
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"But the Deacon was a Plot Device to hint what could have happened to the Space Jockey."
I never looked at it in that way but yeah it makes sense.
As far as urns into eggs I think that it is a bit strange but since it is science fiction that could happen. One can wonder what kind of material the urns were made of. Were these urns made partially by some sort of DNA that the Engineers had manipulated in some way and if so where did the Engineers find that DNA?
Great contribution, Big Dave its refreshing on the net for people to really read what one says and then respond. BD we clearly agree on the way Prometheus was meant to look for us - allegorically. This is how things happen now join up the dots yourself. The Deacon and what went down on LV223 can allow us to make assumptions about how LV426 happened not the precise narrative but the general logic. Now we all know that approach missed with many people they want boxes ticked and things made explicit. Is that broken croissant the derelict, is the deacon responsible for the eggs no and no so people become confused.
Now we know the shift from Prom 2 to A Covenant is about making everything less ephemeral and more concrete and connected and thats why if Ridders has room without causing a heap of problems the precise life cycle we see in A L I E N and the derelict may be the result of the narrative chosen and we seem to be saying that whilst it may not be the case it could be. Given the Martian and Fassbender who has only got bigger in 4 years I could see David, driving the entire plot right down to LV426. In order to create you need to destroy … Earth. I like your point about Spaights and Aliens not fitting together.