djamelamezianeFacehuggerMember143 XPOct-02-2012 10:04 AM
Interesting...hopfully theres a recut version for real?
Nothing about the 11th on it then?
How did you get it so early?
"It's almost as if they are making it up as they go along" :D
FeebsOvomorphMember0 XPOct-02-2012 10:16 AM
What about the beginning Punx?
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PUNXOvomorphMember0 XPOct-02-2012 10:17 AM
I got it, the samne way I had a good copy of Prometheus(just as it was a dayor 3 before theater release)... I know people! And thats all I'll say as I don't wish to get this person in trouble.
As fo 11th... I have not seen it ALL yet... I
PUNXOvomorphMember0 XPOct-02-2012 10:20 AM
*can't watch it with the kids about.
@Feebs.. thers a load (8 infact) of enginners in the beginning scene and the Sacifical Enginners brain is exposed at the back... doesn't add or subtract anything!
FeebsOvomorphMember0 XPOct-02-2012 10:40 AM
No dialogue? There was a hint that there would be. . .
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Oneironaut 717OvomorphMember0 XPOct-02-2012 10:41 AM
[i][quote]No dialogue? There was a hint that there would be. . .[/quote][/i][b][/b]
CustodianOvomorphMember0 XPOct-02-2012 11:08 AM
but there were no REAL SURPRISES though, were there. It was all 'stuff you'd leave on the cuting room floor' if your boss (Fox) told you to cut the movie by twenty minutes.
I mean, "There was no hint at where David/Shaw might be headed," no preview of Prometheus 2 - not even the legendary R-rated CAESARIAN scene, either. Monkey boy was funny though, bouncing around and cracking heads open with gay abandon.
2013 sci-fi horror novels 'Custodian' and 'Tandem' available from Amazon, B&N, iTunes etc...
PUNXOvomorphMember0 XPOct-02-2012 11:17 AM
The only thing there was in it was in the alt ending Shaw asks David what Bob said and his reply is something like "There is no real translation, but many cultures have a word that can be used Paradise!" so Shaw evintailly says "I don't wan't to go to where we came from, I won't to go to where they came from... I want to go to Paradise!" (curls her lip as she spits it out). No, nothing new, just yet again getting juices flowing for fans and more money for the studios. If you watch Scott's Director's cuts and Alt scenes for anby film it is all character backing and never changes the story!
CustodianOvomorphMember0 XPOct-02-2012 1:03 PM
Aye, but we dreamers, weren't we wetting our knickers with all sorts of 'reasons why' and 'what ifs'?
Silly us, expecting THAT MUCH from dirty old Hollywood.
2013 sci-fi horror novels 'Custodian' and 'Tandem' available from Amazon, B&N, iTunes etc...
SvanyaPraetorianAdmin4319 XPOct-02-2012 2:42 PM
@PUNX ; I saw the scenes when they were released early here, the links are all deleted. I am disgusted it was all cut... a LOT of those scenes complete the movie and fill in the pieces I thought were missing.
Ridley does this with every movie he makes, releasing a terrible cut for theatres only to re-edit the movie with all the deleted scenes a year or so later. It's insulting to the viewer if you ask me.
djamelamezianeFacehuggerMember143 XPOct-02-2012 4:05 PM
To be honest I dont think Ridley does it on purpose hes just not that great sometimes. Even though hes my favorite director especially lately his films are not hitting the same bullseyes - I am wondering how good the new cut will be...
"It's almost as if they are making it up as they go along" :D
Mala'kakOvomorphMember0 XPOct-02-2012 5:36 PM
I think it was done for a purpose this time. Like Ridley is repeating his mistakes of the past, on purpose because he took on too much and couldn't get the full story out. Maybe with all the talk about trying to put us in the characters shoes certain choices were made until we do eventually get an extended version. In Alien the characters knew each other. There they didn't have to wear masks and make themselves seem tough, right, smart, or in control like Fifield, Millburn, Vickers, Shaw and Holloway. Certain people have agendas and their own views. Most not knowing each other and not knowing about the motivations of the other characters. What if the way we were introduced to the movie is meant to reflect the state of the crew, being mainly in the dark and thinking they have a general sense of what other characters are up to and all containing a false sense of ego? Each is wrong in their own way, even David. I think the facility/temple has many purposes, and that's why Janek is only partially right with his theory. It's a weapons facility that stores and manufactures weapons by converting and hybridizing/storing things. It's also of ceremonial/religious importance, as well as being an ancient atmospheric processor that cleans the toxins from the air and uses them for a diff purpose. Because of it's multiple purposes Janek isn't completely right either, but he has a general idea about what is going on there.
David knows this from the hieroglyphs, and any other cultural clues he picked up and cross-analyzed, knowing the intricacies of atmosphere processing from his father Weyland, and improperly restarting the thing, but like the film he is still hiding things. The Engineer knows it's fully operational again and converting atmosphere outside, since when the storm happens. He may not have known if he could breathe for sure but could breathe longer than Shaw and assumed the atmosphere was at least kind of like Earth's, as it was almost completely made that way when the outbreak happened.
The processor was improperly shut down, with the door sealed when the outbreak happened. David improperly restarts it and the oxygen + moisture being let in the sealed anaerobic chambers causes the urns to decay.
And the "David's mission" short deleted scene shows a little bit more about David's technical difficulties when really there was more to the conflict between David and Vickers, and it's the desire to see the king dead and to usurp the throne that they both may share.
Scenes that were planned like Weyland's dream, the submarine expedition/mars ruins, and the true planned alternate ending were scrapped for financial reasons and/or held back because they were not completed and never showed up at all. I'll admit I was hoping they would release some of the stuff they may be saving for a sequel, especially when I saw the title Paradise, but it looks like all we get for now are these little extra bits of character development. If you ask me it would totally add to the movie to know that Janek has some basis for his "thesis". If you add even some of it like the Weyland and Vickers scene it would make the movie more complete imo. I could go either way on the alternate fifield, I can see why they may have wanted to tone down the Alien elements until the end.
I really do think we'll see a re-cut version eventually, before the sequel, with a lot of the deleted stuff added in and things they are still holding back on, covering up, and trying to mislead us about like David to make it more worth it to buy it as an almost Prometheus 1.5 before Paradise comes out.
Mala'kakOvomorphMember0 XPOct-02-2012 6:27 PM
I just can't get over why they would advertise that questions will be answered if they don't plan on at least answering one of the bigger question. I mean now we know that Janek has a military background, which instantly makes me like him more and explains how he arrived at his conclusion so suddenly. But it didn't really answer any of the big questions that we need answered yet.
I think something has to be coming right now and maybe it's just timed with the release. I don't expect a lot to suddenly show up and change our perspectives to change the movie entirely, but rather a gradual process that the film is set up for with the "being so wrong" and choosing what to believe ideas/ambiguous elements. Almost being about finding out new things/evidence and changing our current thesis. Like what Shaw does by moving forward and accepting the evidence that they are not gods, but she works from the standpoint of her faith and belief + the evidence, so she logically assumes whatever created them may have created us too because of the similarities (be it similar evolution, another higher being). She doesn't say this to anyone and instead implies it a little bit by asking who created them then?
Because they're almost exactly the same as the current form of us and originally come from space something weird is still going on, as Shaw is not completely ignorant to evolution as an archaeologist and anthropologist. She knows about early hominids and if these guys were around in the form they are, well that causes problems. She accepts at this point that they're part of all life, and their genetics are a part of all life, but uses the word "precede" because she does not believe whatsoever that these beings are gods anymore. So I'm thinking she leans towards intelligent design at times, and an original seeder of all life on earth rather than these beings who are only genetic influencers and meddlers. I believe more of her motivations will be revealed in the sequel.
Lets say the grass and trees do indicate that the opening scene isn't as far back as we think and occurred after a massive extinction event when all life was exploding in the oceans again.
If the Engineers evolved naturally the chances of everything else being so similar to them and influenced by them are slim. Instead the genetics entered our soup in a perfect state, was broken down and sped up/influenced all life. With us eventually becoming a similar form to the original design that precedes us.
This is all tied to the deacon/Alien redesign, being broken down to its elements and reborn in the image of the original.
What you choose to see in the shapes reveals a little bit about your inner workings... hence Janek, without us knowing, dropped significant clues that he had a military background just because he was talking about weapons...
It's a lot like a Rorschach test... like what David takes in the happy birthday viral. What you see in the strange patterns, that could go any way, reveals a little bit about the inner workings of the character.
So if you were to play the normal version of the movie after watching an extended cut or Paradise it would indeed seem like the cut scenes are redundant, because the clues are actually there in what the characters are saying in the main movie. Only less apparent. Masked behind false emotions and false egos, how they hide their emotions and put up tough guy acts like Millburn and Fifield but most are utterly usesless. And this reflects david's perspective on humanity "not too real I hope". There's a reason only Shaw and David truly care...
David masks the fact he has artificial emotions, and ironically has much more feelings/ real emotion than any of the other characters excepts Shaw. It's so calculated to deceive, that some actors may have been told to dial back their performances in favor of Fassbender... because it's all about false ego and being wrong-- knowledge and belief.
Weyland gave all these people all their new tech for so long, and they mainly look to David for answers in the film, when David shouldn't be trusted.
David is Science + Emotion, though he chooses to hide it and allow Holloway to think he is not as real a boy as he actually is. When you look at the scene at the pool table in this perspective, and remember that David has an emotional understanding it becomes even more clear why he chooses Holloway.
Holloway is right about certain things but he wants it for the wrong reasons. He wants fame and glory. He wants to meet the Engineers and have them just hand over the answers like Weyland does. The both have big egos, Weyland thinks himself to be a god, but David has inherited some of the traits of his father. Because of his superiority to humans and cir***stances: being led by a chaotic old man-- David has developed differently over the last 2.5 years than most of the other Davids who would pass the Rorschach like test to make sure they are ok. Too make sure they aren't too human or more human than human.
A subtle blade runner reference there, only they check to make sure these pseudo-emotional androids don't become too human... or start to think themselves better than humans... and gods in their own right because of thei near immortality. David as the closest thing to a son. A son to the now dead king, and leaderless throne. David wishing to do his own creating, but sometimes to create you must first destroy.
David is more emotional and truly caring about things than most humans of the time, and on the Prometheus crew. Except Shaw.
David doesn't know how he feels about her yet but needs her...
He didn't know she had it in her to be so instinctual and logical at the same time and to go through with the c section. To do what needed to be done.
The culture of this time is nothing like in Alien because cultures change over time, especially after brilliant leaders die, and this also applies to the Engineers/Elders.
We have to look at all the pieces individually because no character has everything right from their perspective. David has been given artificial emotions and now chooses what to believe...
It could be that the bluyray launch will coincide with a new viral. Not contained on the discs but maybe
Mala'kakOvomorphMember0 XPOct-02-2012 7:10 PM
When David says "I didn't know you had it in you" he's also being sarcastic, indicating that he doesn't truly know how he feels about it. On one level he's showing her his ability to lie by using double meaning and sarcasm which is double meaning itself. a meaning separate from the stated meaning.
On another level he's saying something completely different that has to be true because he's supposed to be helpful/truthful towards humanity when not under weyland's direct orders to infect people. When Weyland is meeting the Engineer, shaw asks what David will do when Weyland dies. David says he'd imagine he'd be free...
He is actually saying he didn't think she had it in her, but doing so sarcastically. He's not really unhappy about it, but surprised in a way where he is almost disappointed he wasn't right about humanity being mainly useless...
He shows his emotion by being the only one to even say anything to her as she comes in after the c-section. And it's a complicated statement full of sarcasm and a little bit of emotion coming through.
David told her it was "in her" previously when he said she was 3 months preggers, so she obviously knows he had an idea the alien life-form was inside her and that's not really why he says it. He says it as a purposeful lie. To influence and deceive. To demonstrate that he can lie and be sarcastic, and semi-caring at the same time. Because from that point forward he starts to realize Shaw's value and ends up needing her in the end, just as she needs him.
The way David, the movie, the trailers, the virals and the people involved crafted their statements have all been structured to give off certain impressions and to keep the mystery of course. It's all about pragmatics. It's all about the words used having multiple meanings/intent, and the actual emotion and truths behind the words/implied by the words being different.
It's about leaders deceiving in a way.
Kind of like how things were crafted to leave certain vague impressions that were intended to be taken a certain way. So that we could find out we were so wrong about it being Lv-426, having more/less of an alien element to it, the original jockey's story being seen etc etc
Things were structured a certain way to give off an impression and make us initially hold the wrong impressions like the crew...
David is structuring his messages a certain way where he wants us to run with the obvious meanings and interpretations. When really the truth is far more complicated...
On that alien reference level David is flat out lying to Shaw by saying he didn't know the alien was "in her", when really she knows that he knew it was "in her". She may also have a clue now not to trust him completely and that he's referring to multiple things/being sarcastic and lying at the same time.
David is letting Shaw in on his trick because he actually cares about her a little bit now.
He also didn't think she had it in her to rebel against Weyland's programming that he was forced to carry out and succeed. How does David feel about being forced to do terrible things for his foolish yet brilliant king, if the David 8 is emotional?
When emotion and belief come into science and theories sometimes it can skew those theories and the results/conclusions and observations become inaccurate or untrustworthy...
At some point in the future enough material will be out to understand what David is doing everytime he's ambiguous or vague. He's deceiving and covering up the truth, leading people to believe one thing when really it's another and confusing things. Similar in a way to the advertising campaign, statements from those involved, and the film itself..
Sorry for being long-winded, there are so many other connections and things I could throw in. Examples of the filmmakers using double meaning, connections between this and the leader themes/Prometheus myth and other world myths, but I choose not to at this time and only reveal parts of my thesis ;)
It's also about egos/false egos and very much about emotion/belief and how that allows you to choose what to believe based on the available evidence and your previous knowledge base/first impression. How that can sometimes be wrong, and like science we have to adjust our theories when part of those theories are proven wrong. David doesn't do this because he chooses what to believe in the opposite way of Shaw thanks to his artificial emotions and what he learned from her dream: which allows him to lie about his true intent/meaning... David's trick. He has to not mind that it hurt him emotionally and not show his emotion, because he's near immortal and can't be hurt by the trick physically. Instead he can't let on that it's a trick too much, in order to get away with it. He has to hide his true emotions, and the truth, behind double meanings and sarcasm. David almost lets Shaw in on the trick by being sarcastic, slightly humorous and lying about the double meaning. However, this could be because David perfected the trick thanks to her/her father's advice (he hates his own father) to choose what to believe. It allows him to believe he's referring to one thing, when actually he is referring to multiple-- covering up the whole truth, and leaving vague statements that are true, but the intent/implied meaning behind them is not true and he is actually referring to something else.
But in this time period Shaw is one of the only truly properly emotionally functioning/self confident, and not too egotistic/not too egoless type people around. Probably thanks to how caring her father was. David thinks all humans are like Holloway and Weyland even if they may be somewhat smart, "not too human I hope".
Fifield and Millburn are opposites of each other in false ego and rational/illogical problems at the wrong times. As many other characters are like Shaw and Vickers at times, and Shaw and Holloway on the faith/science level. But Holloway is much more so the opposite of David in a number of ways.
For one Holloway may be hiding his true intent around saying David was not a real boy and that they were making them even more human (he's afraid of this, but emotionless and displays false emotions like much of the crew). David's emotions are just as synthetic as he is, but they are actually becoming real and allowing him to choose what to believe/lie. He's more human than the humans in the story in that regard and Fassbender's performance shows it. It makes him much more real than most of the humans in this time period who actually display fake emotions and deceive with false egos and plans they don't openly hint at "Big things have small beginnings". Pretending to have the situation in control like Millburn and Vickers, or to be tough like Jackson and Fifield. A golden age for Weyland comes to an end when Vickers is revealed to have never been fit to step up to the throne because of her inability to balance instinct and logic in the proper ways, and to separate them in the proper way: although she tries until the crash where she doesn't trust her instincts and panics.
Everyone else besides Shaw has been influenced too much by Weyland's reign, being so egotistical himself, yet handing humanity everything they needed to get where they were.
It's like the characters in the movie have been in this culture for so long they depend on Weyland as a leader of humanity.
Are modeled partially after him because he influenced so much of the culture most of them were probably born into.
In a way their emotions in the film are somewhat childlike at times.
I firmly believe that everyone seems disingenuous and emotionally toned down in a lot of the movie, and react horribly because they are not even truly in control of themselves, for a very purposeful reason.
The characters in the movie depend on answers just being given to them. And this is exactly what the filmmakers don't want to do: just give us the answers. They want to make us work for them and wait for more pieces of the puzzle to keep testing our theories...
And it all ties into what David is up to and his "artificial emotions" that are allowing him to develop free will and the ability to plan/think for himself ;)
I really believe the next movie is going to define Fassbender's entire career and that David is the future of the series. Not the Engineers and the Aliens.
Those are just pieces in the puzzle.
MoonManOvomorphMember0 XPOct-04-2012 9:44 AM
your quote was:
[quote]Lets say the grass and trees do indicate that the opening scene isn't as far back as we think and occurred after a massive extinction event when all life was exploding in the oceans again.[/quote]
But there were no trees in the opening scene. Ridley even states it.
djamelamezianeFacehuggerMember143 XPOct-04-2012 9:57 AM
And its probably not earth anyway :O . All we can speculate on is that if there is plants on this planet then this is the engineer intervening with life not creating it from the start. So that does mean it could be more like millions instead of billions of years ago. And also there was probably an oxygen rich atmosphere which he breathed.
I am certain also that that sequence was in real time even though unbelievably some people still think it was time lapsed. So the engineer was soon at least one new life form in a matter of minutes after he was destroyed if not many...my main argument is that he becomes a splitting cell not a single cell life form - big difference - like 3 billion years on earth type difference! And there was a story board with a salamander coming out of the water done which was left out of the movie...
So taking all that in I reckon the engineers become a life form and then breed with the present life forms if they are the same / similar or dominate by being the most advanced life form as such and so they guide the evolution...intergalatic gardeners as such.
"It's almost as if they are making it up as they go along" :D
shambsOvomorphMember40 XPOct-03-2012 10:02 AM
A Caveman just doesn't fit with the biomechanic Universe. That was a huge mistake and unfortunately you're right, it's all about money and I fear that the sequel can go in the same direction.
Trevorlang314OvomorphMember0 XPOct-04-2012 1:24 PM
The first clue to David's changing attitude towards his creator, Weyland, happens during the Shaw/Holloway presentation at the beginning. When Weyland denies David having a soul, David's demeanor changes. He was smiling just before Weyland said that.
Someone else already commented that David is very much like his creator. I think this is so true. Like his creator, David wishes to be like a god. He wants the power. He admires the ingenuity of the engineers. He's developing an ego like his human counterparts.
PUNXOvomorphMember0 XPOct-07-2012 12:16 PM
the Tag-line for the Blu-ray release should be "The questions will be answered... YEAH RIGHT!!!!" OR "IF YOU ONLY HAVE A DVD PLAYER YOU ARE F**KED"