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What David actually said to the Engineer. Mystery Revealed.

What David actually said to the Engineer. Mystery Revealed.

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sukkal

OvomorphMember0 XPJun-20-2012 6:15 PMSPOILER: This is about the meaning of what David said to the Engineer. If you are one of those people who doesn't want to know, don't read this. These are the words that David said to the Engineer: [i]ida hmanâm aî kya namrrtuh zdêêtaha. gwhivah-pyorn-îttham sas daatrr kredah.[/i] And what does it mean? Literally it breaks down to: this man (is) here because not-die he-desires. life_increase_wish to-him you-(can)-give he-believes. And what is the best approximation of what that means in everyday English? What would the sub-title have been if there had been one? This man is here because he does not want to die. He believes you can give him more life. And where did this information come from? It was supplied by Dr. Anil Biltoo of [url=http://www.london.ac.uk/2396.html]SOAS[/url] at the University of London. Dr. Biltoo was hired by Ridley Scott to design the Engineers’ language, teach it to the actors who learned it, and appear on screen as David's language instructor. If you've seen the film, you know what he looks and sounds like. That's also him teaching David while the rest of the crew is still in hibernation. [img]http://masempul.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Anil-Biltoo.jpg[/img] The Engineers’ language is based on Dr. Biltoo's own version of reconstructed [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language]Proto-Indo-European[/url]. In the fictional context of the movie, it is assumed that over 5,000 years ago contact between the Engineers and humans exposed us to this mother language whose human "daughters" are now spoken by roughly [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages]3 billion humans[/url]. Because of this fictional "real link" in human past to the Engineers and their language within the logic of the storytelling, David is able to communicate with them. One of David's features is that he knows all forms of human communication. Some of the words in "Engineer," as it was apparently commonly called during the production, actually have a recognizable connection to modern English. You'll likely recognize «hmanâm» as "human" or simply "man." The verb at the end. «kredah» ("he believes"), has echoes in English "creed," which is a "set of beliefs." For those who are interested in getting even more flavor of what the language is like. Here is the full version of [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schleicher's_fable]Schleicher's Fable[/url] in the version that the Engineers would likely understand. [i]hyewîs yasmâ hwælnâ nahâst aqwhunsâz dadrrkta, tâm ghêrmha vagam ugênthâ, tâm magham bhrrma, tâm hâmanam hêhok bharânt. hyewîs aqwhobyun vakta; mya kêrt xnutâya vizât hmanam aqwhunsâz uh-gnathâ. aqwhunz vaktantâ: kludh hyewa! kêrt xnutâya vîvîzdama: hâmanas patâsa hyewasya hwælnam swah gwhârmam vastram hyewîzbya hwælnâ nahâst. tod aklawa hyewîs agrâm abhogtâ.[/i] Apparently Michael Fassbender spent hours and hours committing the entire fable to memory, only to have the first line of it used in the film. Poor Fassy. Corroboration [url=http://thebioscopist.com/2012/06/20/the-linguistics-of-prometheus-what-david-says-to-the-engineer/]HERE[/url] of the translation.
130 Responses to What David actually said to the Engineer. Mystery Revealed.

sukkal

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-08-2012 12:55 PM@Cyclonus — Pray for the restoration. I predict that you'll be even more surprised.

Diplomat

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-08-2012 8:49 PM(rutger impersonation) "i want more life!"
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/gpC37.jpg[/IMG] ...when your marshmallows are WAY over there.

sukkal

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-09-2012 4:14 PM It might be easier to actually get more life than to pronounce the [i]gwh[/i] in [url=http://masempul.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/gwhiva.mp3][i]gwhiva[/i][/url], which is the word for it. ;)

Indy John

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-10-2012 5:24 AMAre posters that want to speak the Engineers' language? I hope that Shaw is a quick learner as she and David race for the next adventure...so she can communicate,,with the 'aliens' she finds,,
Be choicelessly aware as you move through life

Indy John

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-10-2012 9:02 AM"...Pray for the restoration.." Many notes look forward to the restoration..added 20 minutes or so to the movie...and somehow the story will become clerer,,plat holes disappear..and all will be answered,, The more we hope foer and expect answers..clarifications.and better movie experience,, I thiunk we will be more disappointed,, Just look at the sheer number of threads,,,notes, at this site.. the 'restoration could not even begin to address the issue we think are important. Take what you get for this movie..look forward to the next installment..and quit burning so many brain ells on additional theories that do not relate to the story presented on the screen.. Hmm I wonder if Engineers watched movies??
Be choicelessly aware as you move through life

sukkal

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-10-2012 5:32 PM There is NO WAY that "all will be answered." I agree with you on that point 100%, but I'm confident that more INTERESTING questions will be asked or *could* be asked. The more those things are the focus of our "seeking" the less the more minor issues will be annoying (at least for me).

Indy John

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-12-2012 1:42 PM"... I'm confident that more INTERESTING questions will be asked ..." It is kind of crazy for humans trying to understand the infinate,,,, However your point of 'interesting questions'..is well taken and I hope they occur..
Be choicelessly aware as you move through life

Cup o' Goo

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-17-2012 12:11 AMJoined up just to say thank you, sukkal, for posting the translation. I was very curious to know what David said - would be great if we could have a language guide as, or even more, developed than Mark Okrand's Klingon - outside of academia, that is. I imagine it would take quite a while to coordinate the language with a consistent symbol set and syntax (assuming it hasn't been done already). Again, thanks sukkal. Off to explore other threads.

Indy John

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-18-2012 6:28 AM"..he knew from his readings and watching holographic representations of the Engineer in action what the response might be? .." David sure could have guessed(or information supplied) that the Engineers' reaction would not be good..How could it considerating the Engineer was alone..surrounded by humans demanding answers/action? In any case by David provoking the Engineers; reaction he got rid of several crew mewmbers .. Weyland(though I still suspect he survives in some form)...and starts thinking of an exit plan for Shaw and him off this moon..
Be choicelessly aware as you move through life

Custodian

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-18-2012 9:23 AMwhat's missing in Prometheus is ENGINEER SOCIAL TRIVIALITIES ... they're un-people apart from a 'language' and 'art', there's been no evidence of Engineer-Engineer interaction yet. One pilot contemporary. One sacrifice historical. And don't talk to me about the hologram scene with four Engineers, what I remember of that there was NOTHING exchanged between them, no words, no touches, not even any little dolphin trills of personal space barriers. Weird.
2013 sci-fi horror novels 'Custodian' and 'Tandem' available from Amazon, B&N, iTunes etc...

sukkal

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-19-2012 1:17 AM@Cup o' Goo— Thank you, and WELCOME! I feel it was very clever of Dr. Biltoo to use PIE as the basis for his work for this film. He inherits a lot of structure from 100+ years of work, and can focus more on the phonology that way, which is ultimately what is important for a movie-going audience. Most fans would not learn ‘Engineer’ even if it were as fleshed out as Klingon. The vast majority of Star Trek fans have not learned Klingon, of course. I think the main make-or-break issue for whether a robust grammatical sketch and lexicon of the language are produced and released or not will hinge on a green light for [i]Paradise[/i]. If Shaw and David are headed to the Engineers’ home world, then I would expect a lot of dialogue in ‘Engineer’ there. If Ridley makes it important in the future and FOX gloms onto that as a potential money-maker, then there may be something extensive done... If you want a full (but very technical overview) of PIE, I suggest you visit [url=http://dnghu.org/en/Indo-European%20grammar/]THIS SITE[/url]. @FreePlanet— This is precisely my primary objection to this cut for the theatrical release. I am hopeful that we will see them being less-un-people in a different version of the film. If Ridley decided at the 11th hour to de-people-ize them intentionally and permanently then there is not a lot left for me here in this franchise. I'll stop praying for the Restoration and start praying for him to have better sense in his efforts on the next [i]Blade Runner[/i].

Custodian

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-19-2012 1:42 AMWow, Sukkal, so sorry to hear that you'll abandon this 'franchise' just because it was INTENTIONALLY OBFUSCATIONIST, isn't that the role of Hollywood these days? TO CONFUSE and COUNFOUND the audience, not to enlighten and enrich their growing minds? to let them see the NAKED LUNCH moment when the nourishment on the end of every fork is revealed for the 'useless eater'?
2013 sci-fi horror novels 'Custodian' and 'Tandem' available from Amazon, B&N, iTunes etc...

sukkal

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-19-2012 5:30 PM@FreePlanet— Please allow me to clarify. [quote=sukkal][i]If Ridley decided at the 11th hour to de-people-ize them intentionally and permanently then there is not a lot left for me here in this franchise.[/i][/quote] By this, I mean that if in any sequel the Engineers are not featured and elucidated a bit more, the franchise won't remain very interesting to me. I don't care about the hammerpede, or Spike, really. I'm not "anti-Spike", but he/she as an existential threat could never be as interesting to me as The Engineers, living forever, and finding out that that's not all it's cracked up to be. I feel that Ridley sees Shaw as having something to TEACH the Engineers, even if that's not about Jehovah; just as we have a lot to learn from David. It's very difficult for me to see Shaw teaching anything to Spike or similar, or learning a lot from Spike or similar either, unless Spike is a catalyst for a discussion about avarice and technology getting out of control. I don't need these things to be stated explicitly for me to find the *film meaningful, but I need Shaw and David and the Engineers on screen interacting with each other for that story to be in there at all. SOMEONE decided in this cut to REMOVE the Engineers speaking and therefore revealing more about themselves to the audience. In lieu of that screen time we got Fifield sucking on a very expensive bong and then turning into a rather boring zombie after Milburn (bless his Southern heart), had a bit more cobra sandwich than he could handle. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE me some good zombies. Truly. And I'll refrain from commenting on the oral in too much detail here... But, Ridley is better than that. At least the zombie part... __ More Engineers?... YES! Please! __ More zombies?... No Thanks. Please allocate that budget above.

BigDave

DeaconMember10324 XPJul-30-2012 7:55 AMThere are so many questions, the only answers we got are... 1) The Space Jockey was a Space suit that contained a race known as Engineers. 2) That these Engineers dabble about with genetics and can create and modify life and that they had something to do with the creation of life on Earth via the Sacrifice of one of their kind so his DNA would spread though the Waters and create the basic building blocks for life on Earth. We dont know 100% Why. 3) That it appears that either some of them visited Earth from time to time or indeed was stationed on Earth, up until about 2000 years ago. We dont know 100% Why. 4) That about 2000 years ago some or all of the Engineers based on LV 223 (or maybe based elsewhere) had decided that Mankind or Maybe even all life on Earth had to be wiped out with the bio Weapon Material contained within the Urns that are stored on LV 223. We dont know 100% Why. 5) That apparently LV 223 is a outpost that is used for testing and creating some kind of Bio Weapon and Storing such a Weapon. Its assumed this could be to be used on Earth but why? Then again it could be that this outpost was not just created purely to build a Weapon to kill off Mankind. 6) That the Engineers on LV 223 have the same type of ship that landed on LV 426 and that the purpose of these craft is to carry cargo that are mainly various kind of Bio Weapon (Urns in Prometheus and Eggs in Alien). 7) There is some connection between the Engineers, the substance that is in those Urns and the Xeno Organism. We dont know 100% What or Why. 8) That the Engineers do not come from LV 223 but a place referred to as their Homeworld. Thats about all we really know and been expanded on as far as the Space Jockey/Engineers and the Xeno in this movie.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

zzplural

OvomorphMember0 XPJul-30-2012 8:50 AM@FreePlanet: [i]the hologram scene with four Engineers, what I remember of that there was NOTHING exchanged between them, no words[/i] They were gesturing and using words.
The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent

MVMNT

OvomorphMember0 XPAug-04-2012 6:25 PM@zplural - there's definitely some dialogue

zzplural

OvomorphMember0 XPAug-05-2012 1:56 AMIndeed. I don't know how FreePlanet could have come to any other conclusion, as it's pretty hard to miss, actually.
The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent

Nessimon

OvomorphMember0 XPSep-13-2012 5:54 PMFirst off, simply awesome sukkal! [quote="centaurian_slug"]but now we have to know what ALL the text that appears in the film says.. every single inscription.[/quote] The problem though is, that though Proto-Indo-European is reconstructed with some amount of certainty (but not a great amount), no written source exist from the people who actually spoke this language here on earth. Most likely because they didn't have a writing system. The oldest form of writing system we know of is Archaic Sumerian which was used about 5000 years ago, but not near the area where most scientists belive the Proto-Indo-Europeans lived. So one has to assume (and probably most people have) that the written language is made for the movie, and we won't know more until the author of the written language says something.

SubsumeYou

OvomorphMember0 XPSep-13-2012 9:40 PMYetet another favorite topic that has me going here first before anything else when I'm on the computer. THANK YOU [SMILE]

SubsumeYou

OvomorphMember0 XPSep-14-2012 8:07 PM@ @ Synthetic 69, if it's the the word 'destroy' that troubling for you, then perhaps maybe the Engineer was intending to finish a 2000 year old mission of renewal on earth. Can you accept that?

Tykjen

OvomorphMember0 XPSep-17-2012 2:35 PMOk..can someone translate this? [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK684Ti1KyI]Weyland vs Engineer[/url]

geopap

OvomorphMember0 XPSep-18-2012 9:53 AMSukkal you were right about the translation. As OP [b]txeriff[/b] posted in another thread [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK684Ti1KyI&feature=youtu.be]here[/url] is the video that proves you are right. The question now is, "what did the engineer answered back?". [url=http://uk.ign.com/videos/2012/09/18/prometheus-deleted-scene]Here[/url] is another strange video.
"... and the sea will grant each man new hope, as sleep brings dreams of home." Christopher Columbus.

BigDave

DeaconMember10324 XPSep-18-2012 6:17 PMVery interesting and that new video also. Looks like there could be even more to that scene than even these two new parts.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

sukkal

OvomorphMember0 XPSep-22-2012 7:05 PMSo, regarding what the Engineer says in "The Engineer Speaks" bonus clip... David: [i]Etaî ghwentmm pârâthu htarasyasânt. Hya aadâvâ sthaata tava kredastânt.[/i] "These people have come here from Earth. They believe that you invited them." Egineer: (as best my ear can grasp it) [i]maa vulit teva vaar ghug-non naayaa.[/i] This is a little complicated. This was originally just: [i]kva vllnâ teva?[/i], meaning "What do you want?" and that was all. In this cut we see the Engineer's lips move during [i]«vulit teva»[/i] so I believe they kept those two words close to the original and then made up the rest (ungrammatically) in ADR (automated dialogue replacement). I believe (personally, but do not know for sure) that this was due to Ridley having had a fundamental change of heart about key elements of the back story on the Engineers. I believe he changed his mind after the scenes were in the can and could not be filmed again. That's also why the Elder Engineers (and their dialogue) were cut from the beginning of the film. So, this ends up being essentially "What do you want?" and a bunch of gibberish added after. After Weyland's urging David to get on to the matter of his eternal life... David: [i]ida hmanâm aî kya namrrtuh zdêêtaha. gwhivah-pyorn-îttham sas daatrr kredah.[/i] This is the line from the original theatrical release, unchanged. Essentially: "This man wants you to give him eternal life." Engineer: [Gibberish.] This is the same line that was used in the SDCC phone promo clip. Now I know where the marketing folks got it from. David then says in English that the Engineer wanted to know [u]why[/u] Weyland wanted to live forever. What the Engineer originally was slated to ask in response was: [i]kâm gwhivah pyorn-îttham vllnaah? kva hmanâm ida magham kêrt kya etaazdêt?[/i] "Why does he want more life? What makes this man so great as to ask such a thing?" I don't know why they didn't just use this. It makes perfect sense and Weyland then explains the answers... Who knows... Finally the Engineer would have said another line that I think Ridley wanted completely struck due to the philosophical background "change of heart." That line also explains logically why the Engineer used David's head to kill Weyland, but in the Director's Commentary, Ridley has simply explained that the Engineer was offended by being talked to by "technology"... I'm bummed, but I'm not the director so that's that. Perhaps the Engineers will be more interesting in the next film due to these choices... One can always hope... It also seems possible to me that perhaps the bonus footage in the Blu-Ray's etc. will be different... ??

Davefried81

FacehuggerMember240 XPSep-23-2012 2:13 AM@sukkal, another solid post with translations. Thank you kindly! I knew David was not fully translating the engineer. Perhaps in hopes of attaining something else? I always felt Davids agenda was different even from Peter Wetland. Anyhow, why do you think the engineer spoke with such anger at first? And why do you think the engineer looked puzzled when Shaw was asking him questions?

sukkal

OvomorphMember0 XPSep-23-2012 2:28 PM@Davefried81 Without seeing it or hearing it, it's impossible to know what we don't know about what was filmed and what was cut out. My currently surmising leads me to believe that there were 3 evolutionary stages in the thinking about the Engineers. Stage 1: They were not conceived as a purely EVIL race of beings. Their "seeding" technology that required the sacrifice of a young (male) member of their society was truly a sacrifice. The ceremony as cut, but seen in stills, was somber but not mean, cruel, or violent in spirit. Their technology (dated by Ridley in his commentary on the DHD release) of many many millions of years ago just worked that way. There is a very clear spiritual nature present atmospherically that was removed (except for the anthem "Life" which still plays as the film opens). Even though the final scene with Weyland vs. the Engineer takes place millions and millions of years after the opening of the film, and clearly some very very bad things have been created by the Engineers themselves at LV_223, there was still a feeling of more spirituality—a well-defined belief system—in the Last Engineer. It is not necessarily the same belief system held by the Elders (missing from the opening scene), but it is something concrete for him as he encounters David, Weyland and Shaw. I also think it very possible that the Last Engineer has never seen a female Engineer and that that was his fascination with Shaw. That shows up again in the escape module in the scene where she attacks him with the ax. He seems fascinated with her. I have no idea what his real back story is. But, as originally conceived and filmed, he does not seem like a purely evil character to me. I also believe that his voice was not digitally modified (at least not much) as originally conceived. Stage 2: This is what we've seen so far now via "The Engineer Speaks" bonus material in the DHD download (mine from iTunes). He is conceived as inherently a "bad ass." He's angry and more frightening than originally conceived. I think they made up ungrammatical, SCARY-sounding dialogue to create more of this "bad-ass" effect. I think the voice was also modified intentionally electronically to create this affect. When David says: "...He asked why." That was originally true even in Stage 1, but David may not have wanted to translate the part re: "Who can be that arrogant?" Ridley's commentary does suggest that David is much more *evil* than I personally would want him to be. Of course, Weyland is evil, so like father like son. Anyway, regardless of whether the Last Engineer was intentionally re-conceived as a more bad-ass character or not, he still seemed fascinated by Shaw as a female. In both Stages he appeared fine to let her go. His confusion at her speaking could simply have been that he didn't understand why David was the only one who made sense to him verbally. He may also not have understood that she was asking something very important and passionate and sympathized with that (in Stage 1 as filmed) but not been able to know what the problem was that was so upsetting her. David's story about 2,000 years ago could be a complete fiction that he made up or a misunderstanding on his part about something he read about their "gardening" practices. Ridley does say that the back goo in one of the canisters could wipe out all of Europe, however. Stage 3: This is what ended up in the final theatrical cut. The Last Engineer does not speak a word. He just pushes the plot forward by ripping David's head off. I believe this was done so that we would know as little as possible (have as few preconceptions as possible) about the Engineers as Shaw and David depart for their home world. It was done to keep the Engineers completely ambiguous as to culture and intention. This leaves more doors open for directions in subsequent films. I personally feel that this decision contributed to part of the weirdness in the editing in the theatrical release, but I understand from a franchise perspective why it was done. That doesn't mean that I feel it was a good decision overall, but it doesn't prevent the Engineers from being revealed as more complex and interesting in follow-up films. It is very possible that the Last Engineer is simply a rogue ideologue within their society. He may be the very anarchist who formulated the black goo as a bio-weapon, or some minion from a dangerous, radical offshoot of their civilization. I just don't know. Future script directions could even have the Engineers (of their home world) teaming up with the humans of Earth to battle the progeny of the Deacon. Anything is possible.

BigDave

DeaconMember10324 XPSep-23-2012 2:36 PM@sukkal Good Work again... ;) So some how you can translate what David said and so that means the language he is using is actually a real one and one that that Dr tought him is a actual real DR of Ancient Languages. But the Engineer well some of his words are translatable but others are words that do not belong to the language that he is speaking, and if the Dialog at the beginning is mainly made up with bits from this language then if translated only parts could be translated and the rest not as it would be made up garble. Thats maybe why the Scene was cut then?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

sukkal

OvomorphMember0 XPSep-23-2012 3:38 PM@BigDave, Thanks. To the best of my knowledge when Ian was filmed portraying the role of the Last Engineer, he spoke *proper* (intelligible) Engineer (again, a grammatically correct riff off of Proto-Indo-European); as did Michael. Everything that Michael is heard saying in the film and bonus material is completely *correct* and the precise meaning can be parsed and understood by anyone who knows the grammar and lexicon of the language. In post production the voice of the Last Engineer was changed to say something that if we look at a parallel in English would come out like: David: These people have come from Earth. They believe that you've invited them. Engineer: Whet vant you hone preek ranggerm boddick? David: This man doesn't want to die. He believes that you'll give him eternal life. Engineer: Flar tobbick jeek snorrin’ yabbit newrow homack!! These are sounds that *might* exist in English, but don't, as real words. And, we can't make any sense out of the second sentence at all. They did a pretty good job of matching the mouth movements that were already in the can to the dialogue done in post in ADR, but it doesn't *mean* anything. I think they had to (A) work with film already in the can and (B) they fundamentally changed their minds about what they wanted the Engineer to say. And, they didn't go back to Dr. Biltoo to ask him for help in coming up with grammatical dialogue to be voiced over by Ian or another actor in ADR. David was always likely to be the stand in for subtitles. That helps us (the audience) identify more with Weyland and Shaw (and makes it easier for David to be being dodgy about things).

Custodian

OvomorphMember0 XPSep-24-2012 12:39 AMO.M.G. sukkal, this is absolutely amazing and fundamentally changes everything about this film. With Ridley's brother Tony dying in such BIZARRE CIR***STANCES, can you relate such a dramatic script change for Last Engineer to such a conspiracy theory? I'm asking, "Can we get someone who's a lip-reader, or has access to the SHOOTING SCRIPT, to completely define the mouth movements for L.E.'s proper script?" Why would Ridley want to altar (pun intended) the FORCED MURDER UNDER DURESS of the first Engineer? Is the process of SACRIFICIAL LAMB suddenly anathematic? Too close to the societal bone? I'm asking, of course, "Was 9/11 a BLOOD SACRIFICE? to some HHP or Higher Hollywood Power?" And on the subject of the URN LANGUAGE: as Prometheus is so obviously more Solaris or Battleship Potemkin than was originally understood - more sinister and thematically malevolent -- the goo-urns, with all the 'chinese-like' script on them ... I still don't think that'd get through Mr Perfection's creative sieve without being relevant, as old as he is. Scott's a perfectionist - was he warning about a Chinese Bio-attack?
2013 sci-fi horror novels 'Custodian' and 'Tandem' available from Amazon, B&N, iTunes etc...

BigDave

DeaconMember10324 XPSep-24-2012 4:32 PMCheers again... I guess does it really 100% matter if there is no real translation? It can be gibberish as long as maybe they give us subtitles. So we know that somewhere along the lines basically David said... About that the crew are here because they discovered the invitation etc. Then we can assume the Engineer then asked.... Something like why have you come and what do you want. Then David tells him that Weyland wants to live forever... I see sukkal you are familiar with the work of Dr. Biltoo and the Engineer said two lines of Dialog so what do you think Ridley intended him to say in both lines?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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