Forum Topic
sukkal
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 1:38 PMThe [u]spoiler[/u] concept is that I refer to a character from the leaked credits who has [i]not[/i] been seen as such (definitely) in a trailer to far (to my knowledge). It's probably not a big spoiler if you've been here for more than a week, but I wanted to put up this warning...
:
:
:
:
Overall, I feel that BigDave's analysis in [url=http://www.prometheus-movie.com/community/forums/topic/4717]THIS TOPIC[/url] of the role of the Sacrifice Engineer is probably spot on. My only lingering doubt comes from the fact that IF the Engineer were to BE sacrificED, then in "proper" English I would expect his credit to read "[u]Sacrificial[/u] Engineer." So that's why there is a question mark here. Do you feel that that (presumably holographic??) character is closer to Abraham in this scene or to Isaac? There is precedent in franchise canon for both in the xeno behavior. Mammals are sacrificed so that new xenos can be born. And, in [i]Resurrection[/i], two xenos sacrificed another (against its will) so that they could escape their cell. The needs of the many...
Do you think the "Sacrifice Engineer" will BE sacrificED, or that we'll see him sacrifice something or someone to someone/thing else? And this is the crux of why I'm posting this. [u]Within the LOGIC of the Engineer culture, why all of the religious iconography in this film?[/u] (I understand why it works for Noomi's character and the rest of us human schmucks watching the film. It's great for advertising, etc... But, [u]how is it justified internally in the STORY of this film[/u]?)
Why would a culture capable of and clearly engaged in advanced genetic engineering, interstellar travel, "godlike" powers, etc. have their own religion? And, what is that religion? What dynamic in their culture led to its creation?
[url=http://masempul.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Religious-Symbolism.jpg][img]http://masempul.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Religious-Symbolism.jpg[/img][/url]
Please hypothesize away.
If you have SEEN the film or feel compelled to report word of mouth from others who have, please don't do that here. Please don't [u]spoil[/u] beyond the mention of the character from the film credits. This is about a theoretical philosophical discussion for those of us who don't want to KNOW the answer until we see the film (if it's even in the film). Thx!!
47 Replies
Mostly
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 1:46 PMCould not a lower life form than us, ask the very same question about why we humans have religion?
Sky
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 1:49 PMHope you don't mind me asking questions.
Which is the first images scenario? and the last?
I am not sure if the second image is lilith. In that case the image on the right should be alien queen or xeno queen hmm?
Uncertainty is the only certainty there is, and knowing how to live with insecurity is the only security.
sukkal
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 1:58 PM@Sky,
The first is "original sin". Eve is taking the apple from the serpent/snake in the Bible. There is not necessarily a DIRECT parallel in all of these because I don't know exactly what the [i]Prometheus[/i] images are (yet).
The last is a story from early on in the Bible too. The father, Abraham, is told by God to sacrifice his son, Isaac, to God. The when Abraham is about to take the child's life, an angel comes and stops him. Abraham is deemed worthy of God's special favor because he seemed willing to kill is son for God. A sheep is provided by God/the angel as a substitute. This conveys two points in the story.
1) Abraham will do WHATEVER God says.
2) The religion should not include human sacrifice (à la the Aztecs/Maya)
You can click to see a much larger version.
Dave_b
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 1:58 PMReligion is fundemental to intelligent beings. It is an attempt to explain the unknown. It can be based on sheer speculation or on first hand experience with the unknown or the misunderstood. I see no reason why any species, no matter how evolved (which I do not believe the Engineers to be), wouldn't retain a religion of sorts. The more we learn about our existence the more probable the existence of God appears.....keeping up on Quantum theory lately??
fanboy79
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 1:59 PM@sky
the first image is one of the many depicting the serpent convincing eve to take the fruit from the tree of knowledge also referred to as the tree of life and death/the second image is of abraham sacrificing issaic as had been requested of him by God through an angel whom later stopped him and informed him that it was only a test...or some reference to that
Sky
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 2:02 PMThanks @sukkal and @fanboy79
Somehow these images look totally different for me than the original story for me. I guess a minor changes in art could tell a way different story. I am not much into symbolism, it's kind of mystery to me because each interpretation is different and there is no correct answer that way.
Uncertainty is the only certainty there is, and knowing how to live with insecurity is the only security.
sukkal
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 2:03 PM@Dave_b
Most of us are probably NOT up on the latest in Quantum theory, though my father-in-law is a physicist at Harvard. We have interesting discussions over dinner. Are you referring to the "Ultimate observer?" Please enlighten us further...
sukkal
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 2:05 PM@Sky,
But even without "correct" answers, what do you feel the PURPOSE of the religious-y imagery is in the STORY of [i]Prometheus[/i]?
Sky
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 2:14 PM@Sukkal, I have digged into lot of temples from multiple generations. I have observed that most of the stories in the temple are about the stronger people during that generation. So I expect the same in the temples in prometheus.
< spoiler > I guess the stories in the temple of prometheus are going to be the same. I mean it's how these engineers arrived and what they did or what is right and wrong around there. I don't think there will be much graphical display over there if they want to make prometheus 2.
< / spoiler >
Uncertainty is the only certainty there is, and knowing how to live with insecurity is the only security.
aintnozeno
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 2:15 PMForgive me, as I have already drummed a few insults on other threads about religion. This one is actually quite interesting. Dave_b's post above is a very intelligent observation, without any stereotypical insults. Well said sir!
I think the major problem in discussions such as these, is the misunderstood difference between faith and religion (worship). Two completely different concepts that are often considered the same thing by those who don't know any better.
I hope this thread remains civil and continues as is. It should be a good one if it does.
Dave_b
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 2:24 PM@Sukkal
Dinner must be stimulating with your father-in-law (said with my best david-8 impersonation). Yes, the "Ultimate Observer" as indicated by the Holographic principle stemming directly from the latest theoretical frameworks under investigation......we may be a Holographic construct or "Image" if you will, projected onto a 2Dimensional template or surface by some remote entity or causation. If anything remotely like this does in fact have merit, then the concept of a supreme being takes on a whole new level of believability. In fact, a supreme being or creator would seem to be required by physical law!!
sukkal
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 2:25 PM@Sky —
What is the significance of the GIGANTIC HEAD for you? And do you feel the "Sacrifice Engineer" is more likely to sacrifice something or be sacrificed for some purpose. The fact that he is named "Sacrifice Engineer" and not "Engineer 2" seems to have some import, does it not?
I agree with you that the imagery on the ceiling is likely to be fleeting, but the [u]mechanism[/u] to have it up there had to have been very intentionally designed.
Was that done by the Engineers that we see in the film or his peers, his ancestors, his god(s)??
All,
What [u]normally[/u] goes on in that room (when aliens from Earth aren't showing up) and how did those ceremonies (if they are ceremonies) evolve?
sukkal
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 2:29 PM@Dave_b
Could the Engineers be at their level of civilization (the one that created this physical "temple" complex and the Juggernaut) without having come to some similar conclusion? And, if so, how does/would SACRIFICE play into that world view? Do they simply feel that the "Ultimate Observer" is a rather nasty entity that likes snuff films?
Dave_b
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 2:34 PMIt seems fairly straightforward that the "Head" (representing us) is a sacrificial figure that is offered up to the Urns, to be infected and transformed for whatever reason. Since it's been their for some time, and the imagery on the ceiling recounts the development of the Xeno, we can assume that the Engineers used our species for Xeno development at some point...either intentional or not!
Sky
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 2:39 PMI think the sacrificial theory makes sense with some history behind it which we are not aware of right now. I think the imagery that we see are more likely part of their peers rather than their gods.
Uncertainty is the only certainty there is, and knowing how to live with insecurity is the only security.
Dave_b
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 2:43 PMHaving knowledge and technology does not require a species to respect another. Neither does religion for that matter. Unless they would have actually met the "Ultimate Observer" or in fact BE the UO, there would be no reason to beleive they are civilized or above us on a moral plane. Their religion may indeed require sacrifice for the greater good. Or maybe we pests, are simply useful tools for their needs.
Sky
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 2:49 PMOn that point, I remember reading the notes of one of the professor recently. His notes were about "us" (humans) being simulation run by our own future generations in order to compute the flaws in us in past. Quite a futuristic theory. Not related to this thread but I'll digg that link and maybe we can have discussion on that.
Here it is : http://research.lifeboat.com/bostrom.htm
and the PDF : http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.pdf
Uncertainty is the only certainty there is, and knowing how to live with insecurity is the only security.
sukkal
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 2:57 PMI can't argue. It is ODD to me that the head is that large, then. I would expect more of a Christ-like image with the head hanging down (à la the sacrificial "cargo" of humans from [i]Resurrection[/i]).
I am accustomed to the giant icons being images of that/he/her which/who is worshipped, not sacrificed.
[img]http://images.lightstalkers.org/images/741629/daibutsu_nara_buddha.jpg[/img]
Though this is somewhat of both, huh? I'd never though of it that way:
[img]http://www.allpics4u.com/www/slike/place/Statue%20Rio/Statue_Rio8.jpg[/img]
sukkal
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 2:59 PM@Sky —
That sounds kind of [i]Matrix[/i]-y. I'll have to go read it.
Thx.
takka_takka_takka
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 3:03 PMReligion is silliness made dogma. It is an attempt to explain things beyond your current level of understanding. Humans used to worship the sun, the stars, thunder, etc. Now that we can explain these things scientifically it seems rather silly to have seen them as gods. When a child asks why the sky is blue and a parent says, "Because god made it that way" it is just the parent trying to avoid admitting that they don't know and being to intellectually lazy to investigate the matter.
So my feeling is that what we see with the engineer's artwork is not religious in nature, but more historical or memorial. Just because humans tend to put lion statues outside libraries doesn't mean that we think that they are gods. We just think they look cool. Art can and does exist outside a religious context.
David 1
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 3:04 PMgood one. Food for thought
[b]Ask nothing from no one. Demand nothing from no one. Expect nothing from no one.[/b]
DAVIS
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 3:17 PMOne engineer running away while the another two chasing him then beheaded him.
sukkal
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 3:28 PM[quote=takka_takka_takka][i]When a child asks why the sky is blue and a parent says, "Because god made it that way" it is just the parent trying to avoid admitting that they don't know and being to intellectually lazy to investigate the matter.[/i][/quote]
Valid. When I was 3-y-o I asked by mother, "What do stars eat." It's recorded in my baby book. She apologized to me as an adult saying she should have pulled out the Encyclopedia and explained nuclear fusion to me.
BUT, that doesn't answer the main topic of this thread.
I can buy ALL of the imagery as art, without associating human ideas of religion and superior beings to it, but that word SACRIFICE (so overt, so specific) that hangs in the air like a putrid odor or delightful fragrance (depending on your point of view). It's the combination of all these things (imagery and language) that encouraged me to start this discussion.
Dave_b
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 3:32 PMTakka Takka Takka, religion may or may not be involved...they are not a pre-requisite for the "Head" being in the temple. Religion stems from a deep seated part of our minds to explain the unexplainable to a large extent I agree. To dismiss it out of hand however shows a certain recklessness to your exposition regarding the intellectual capacity of person(s) Religious. More than a few highly regarded intellectuals and scientists were and are "Religious". They are not mutually exclusive! The lions you mentioned did not have Urns placed around them I presume? Perhaps the context of the art or artifact tells us as much as the figure or idol in question. We are all "Religious" to a certain extent, in that we believe in doing or believing in things that make us feel comfortable and safe and in control. I might add that when you eventually find yourself fading out of this realm and into that "unknown adventure" beyond, you will be confronted with the concept of an afterlife head on....and it may require you to admit you are religious afterall. Or not:O)
sukkal
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 3:36 PM@Davis
AHA!! [b]Yes[/b], but that's TECHNICALLY a "Sacrifi[u]cial[/u] Engineer".
Were they just not careful with the titles?
Very possible.
But, WHY, was he being sacrificed? Was that [u]ceremonial[/u], or [u]necessary[/u] for some practical purpose? If he had committed a crime, we would not call that "sacrifice." It would be some form of "punishment."
Perhaps he had to be sacrificed because he became (accidentally) infected by something? An Engineer version of "Holloway syndrome," perhaps?
I don't have an answer or an agenda. I really do want to think this through thoroughly because the imagery coupled with the word is very interesting to me. I never would have thought of the owner of the head in the scanner as "the sacrifice."
Thanks for that. :•)
Jason8
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 3:44 PMIt seems to me that Shaw is searching for the creator to validate her faith and Halloway is searching for the creator to invalidate religion. They might both be right and wrong. If they find that man was created by the SJ or another more advance race they have found what they ware looking for. It is all a matter of perception. In any case the ultimate answer to the question, "is there a god?" is still not answered. They might find out who created mankind but the answer to who created our creators is still open.
sukkal
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 3:47 PM[quote=Dave_b][i]We are all "Religious" to a certain extent, in that we believe in doing or believing in things that make us feel comfortable and safe and in control.[/i][/quote]
B R I L L I A N T !
The etymology is debated, but it seems very plausible to me that [i]re[u]lig[/u]io[/i] is just that "[u]link[/u]" to "that which makes us feel comfortable and in control."
Oh, if only it were broadly understood that way in all cultures, but that's another topic...
Back on track...
[quote=Dave_b][i]...when you eventually find yourself fading out of this realm and into that "unknown adventure" beyond, you will be confronted with the concept of an afterlife head on....and it may require you to admit you are religious afterall.[/i][/quote]
The situation that the "last Engineer" is experiencing here on LV-223 does seem to REEK of some kind of "end of days" scenario.
Is he LITERALLY the very last of his species?
[Again, if you KNOW unequivocally that that is the case in the story line, please, do not answer.]
sukkal
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 3:57 PM@Jason8
I completely agree with you.
But, the main reason I'm asking the big picture question(s) of this topic, is because I can totally see the "religious iconography" of the Temple in the film being relevant to both Shaw's and Holloway's "personal journeys." However, in the fictional context of the story. That iconography (at least the Head and presumably the xeno-esque imagery) is already there, whether they show up or not. So it must play into the Engineers’ world in some way, regardless of the human presence.
takka has suggested that perhaps it's just art and that the Engineers’ don't attach any "religious" or "spiritual" or "supernatural" or "mythic" symbolism to it at all. Do you see it as pointing towards something that we would generically call "religion" or not? Is it a place of WORSHIP? TRADITION? ENTERTAINMENT?
Newtella
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 5:11 PMI haven't read all the posts here yet but perhaps what Ridley Scott's really banking on to be the most scary thing in this film is how science & religion finally merged into one thing that went terribly, terribly wrong.
Newtella
MemberOvomorphMay-18-2012 5:21 PMI just hope RS doesn't over-Christianize whatever religious symbology he uses in this sci-fi film. We already have [i]Evangelion[/i] for that.
In regards to Eve & the serpent story... that's an Abrahamic gloss over several thousand years of Pagan / Goddess spirituality that preceded before. One of the oldest statues (7.5 million B.C.E.) in a meditative pose was found on Crete, in the form of a woman-snake. Make of that what you will.
Hiisssssssss....
Add A Reply
