RaidoFacehuggerMember194 XPApr-26-2017 10:15 PM
I've been pondering over this new clip since I first watched it. Since I have to get going to bed, I'll rehash some ideas I speculated on in other threads;
It's interesting to see how David and Shaw's relationship seems to be progressing. The interplay between the two is one of the most fascinating things I've ever seen onscreen--despite being "incapable" of feeling, it's nonetheless apparent that David fancies Shaw. I've discussed it in detail before in a reply to this thread.
As I've mentioned before on some other threads, I've been intently watching Sir Ridley's four (so far) SF films--analyzing them and their common themes and motifs, in preparation for the release of COVENANT.
One common theme (for three of the films, at least) is the development of emotions and proto-emotions by supposedly emotion-less AI beings. It begins with ALIEN, in a small but certainly malevolent way. Ash attempts simulated oral rape of Ripley. In BLADE RUNNER, Pris and Roy have developed affection for one another, as has Deckard (who I believe is a Replicant until/unless 2049 proves otherwise) and Rachel. Not only that, Roy is the most "humane" character, sparing Deckard when he could have killed the Blade Runner in a last act of vengeance before his own death. It's only after this display of empathy that Deckard is able to break free of his LAPD masters and flee with Rachel. And then on to PROMETHEUS, where David shows a creepy infatuation with Dr. Shaw. (I discussed his apparent affection for her in more detail here).
Taking into consideration the way this and other themes are common to many of Ridley's SF movies, I've been speculating on some possible scenarios that may play out in COVENANT (and/or AWAKENING):
1. Shaw and David reach Paradise, but the Engineers do something horrible to Shaw, causing David to wreak his horrible vengeance on them--bombing them with the Accelerant. (IF this is what occurred, it would likely be the plot of AWAKENING, which is said to occur between PROMETHEUS and COVENANT).
2. David and Shaw's friendship turns sour, causing him to go berserk because he lacks the proper emotional responses/capability to handle it. (This would make him similar to the Replicants in BLADE RUNNER--Zhora, Leon, and Pris all attack Deckard when he corners them; Roy on the other hand faces him down "man-to-man" and in the end proves himself the better of the two because of his empathy).
3. Shaw is ill when she goes into cryosleep and David begins experimenting with the Accelerant to save her. (This would make him similar to his own Creator, Weyland, who is dying and looking for a miraculous cure from the Engineers).
4. Shaw dies in cryosleep, and in an attempt to give her immortality and/or revive her, David begins experimenting with the Accelerant. (This would tie in with the theme of Mortality/Immortality that plays a big role in both BLADE RUNNER and PROMETHEUS).
5. My personal favorite idea is this: David was successful in saving/altering Shaw with the Accelerant. She's gone off to live her life on Paradise. (Or perhaps elsewhere? Presumably she'd be post-human). David, a mechanical being, remains behind doing his experiments. Perhaps his intention is not to just make new life, but to give himself life. (He did look a little hurt when Weyland said he'd never have a soul in PROMETHEUS). To make himself a biomechanical being. Walter, being a later-generation Weyland-Yutani android AND apparently somewhat biomechanical in design, is likely to have a role in David's work IF making himself "alive" proves to be his goal. Again, this would tie in with the themes of BLADE RUNNER and PROMETHEUS if it turns out to be part of the plot. Plus, being an immortal-yet-semibiological being would make David the perfect organism, would it not? Just as much as, or perhaps even more so than, the xenomorphs...
Michelle JohnstonChestbursterMember763 XPApr-26-2017 11:54 PM
Watching this positioning prologue capped a great evening of experiencing Prometheus and Alien back to back for the first time on the big screen. The latter brings up the thematic film making similarities of these films which I have not considered before (quite separate from the issue of pondering the story connectivity which a great deal of time has been given to !).
The prologue has John Logan all over it giving background and context to the behaviour and motivation of the main character. I will not call David protagonist or antagonist at this stage thats for May 11th.
The message for me in this prologue is the film will be driven by David showing us (Mankind) his view of mortality and immortality his reaction to it as he becomes more emotionally engaged (this is the key message of Michaels performance) and the latter is not about breaking (and making) Covenants and causing chaos (which will be the narrative thrust of the movie) but understanding what it really is. Daniels will from the get go echo and refract the human perspective. Loss/survival are banging at both their emotional gates.
Wayne Haag indicated Covenant will produce "tons of answers" about Prometheus and will drag Prometheus in its wake. This short begins that process with a vengeance (literally).
One of the elements that came over in the discussions on this board is the very real passion for Rildey's work/The Alien franchise often people disagree about whether the outcomes are good for them but what is undeniable and demonstrated with the three positional elements Walter/Last Supper/Crossing is the absolute passion Ridley is displaying at 78 for this new film. The trailers are designed to get bums on seats but these items are love letters to the fans and it was fitting that the Crossing was placed before us on our fan day.
I have always believed that the three gifts of the Prometheus narrative to Covenant would be the mutagen created by the Engineers (now officially called the pathogen), Elizabeth and Sir Peter. This short makes that entirely clear but what is great from an entertainment perspective that in one case, Shaw I believe how that is demonstrated will be absolutely crucial but not in the way I even considered, cue (I was wrong so wrong).
Looking forward to 11 plus.
AdamPDFacehuggerMember198 XPApr-27-2017 12:46 AM
Would be rather ironic if the ship David and Shaw took, was destined for Paradise all along and David is unable to stop the bombing sequence from initiating, hence the tear in his eye? Hmm :P
MrJonesyOvomorphMember24 XPApr-27-2017 1:08 AM
If David has developed a form of 'love' or affection for Shaw this would lead him to push boundaries to save her life. If she is ill, perhaps as a long-term result of the impregnation, David might look to find a way to cure or save her using the mutagen as suggested by Raido. In terms of the new creatures we'll be seeing in the movie, and slaughtered Covanent crew, maybe these are experiments designed to provide the means to save Shaw? Perhaps David is acting out of love not malice and is prepared to sacrifice the life of others to save her?
SenseOfDoubtOvomorphMember59 XPApr-27-2017 1:21 AM
I sincerely hope Shaw doesn't die in cryosleep. Two characters in one movie... Hmmm, that's dangerously close to a Hicks/Newt situation.
Great featurette though - I love the way the ampules escalate up the walls for deployment. It's looking more epic with every reveal.
BabylonxenoFacehuggerMember167 XPApr-27-2017 1:30 AM
If prometheus was anything to go by, a lot of things probably wont be explained to maintain mystery. One way to guarantee years of forum threads is to not explain that scorpion ship, which is what i expect to happen.
david seems to become genocidal on the way to paradise. The clip looks like they are both happy to go there together, if shaw died on the way it would be davids dault for exposing her to goo on lv223.
i think he simply goes insane on a long journey and is exposed to knowledge that would send anyone out of control, imagine you had a chance to get back at the ones who ripped your head off just for speaking to them? I dont blame him for some payback.
S1m0nOvomorphMember87 XPApr-27-2017 3:57 AM
God I hate waiting... give me the film now!!! lol
The excitement is killing me , ever since alien and aliens I have wanted more of the story and this seems to give some explanation.
There has got to be more to these people he bombs, they dont look liek typical engineers but they could be a subculture which were part of a cival war.
Don't forget in one of the clips we see a blurred figure that looks like an engineer , maybe he was on the ship with shaw and David and he has made the android do this?
only time will tell :)
BlackGooDrinkerFacehuggerMember112 XPApr-27-2017 4:01 AM
Shaw's outfit looks close to the Cloak the Engineers use.
Movie fanFacehuggerMember500 XPApr-27-2017 4:31 AM
Obviously, there is a movie between "Prometheus" and "Covenant"
We probably won't get our answers in this movie, but in "Awakening"
LadyStardustOvomorphMember32 XPApr-27-2017 5:39 AM
First, as perfectly mentioned by @Raido, Sir Ridley does have this emotional approach to AI and there had already been a kind of "curiosity", to say the least, from David towards Elizabeth in PROMETHEUS. And the fact that he chose to test the pathogen using her boyfriend could be taken as an act of "getting rid of the competition". On the other hand, also in PROMETHEUS, she had constantly been treating David as a "person", before she found out he was responsible for Charlie's death, I mean.
Now, on this new video, Elizabeth does help David and it seems that they both had left the past behind and started a brand new level of emotional commitment, if David's narrative is to be trusted. In this case, if he happened to find out something horrible about the way the Engineers see the human race - and being his now beloved Elizabeth human herself and able to be so kind to an AI like himself - he might conceive a sort of retaliative action towards them, for he wouldn't let those guys have another chance to kill something he praises.
She might be dead or not, but we can hear cheering from the crowd who comes to greet the ship as it arrives. Depending on what David learned about the Engineers' intentions, the reception down there is greeting mass murderers. And David answer is: "Look on my works, ye mighty, And despair."
As every action has a reaction, he turned Paradise into Hell, probably not expecting human visitors so soon. So, if he took such a dramatic attitude in Paradise, the chances that Elizabeth died are huge, probably during cryosleep. Or, if he really loves her and she's not dead, she's still sleeping and he's taking his time trying to find out how to make her as imortal as he is, for he won't want to lose her eventually.
BUT in previous videos, we do see their ship crashed in the woods, maybe there was some sort of retaliation from the locals, when probably Elizabeth died - or not.
In this last case, the crew of Convenant either comes in handy as guinea pigs or he might try to save them, for they became collateral due to his previous atittude in Paradise.
Now, Walter... well, he's still a company "man", isn't he?
MembraneFacehuggerMember159 XPApr-27-2017 5:49 AM
@Raido, yes, I have been thinking your scenario #1 as well. 'Alien: Awakening' will deal with what happens to Shaw, David and the Engineers, prior to 'Alien: Covenant'. The "awakening" is three-fold... that of Shaw awakening from cryo and an "enlightenment" of what David learns while she is asleep and what both Shaw and David learn, witness and experience in regards to the Engineers (and their planet, I still don't think the planet in 'Covenant' is "Paradise") once she is awake and they are both together again looking for the creators' creator.
AortaFacehuggerMember316 XPApr-27-2017 6:03 AM
Good to hear from you so close to A Day. Thank you for heightening my perceptions once again!
Trevorl314OvomorphMember16 XPApr-27-2017 9:05 AM
Maybe something happens to Shaw as a result of some action taken by the Engineer (or Engineer-like) beings on Paradise upon their arrival. David becomes very upset, as we can see in the shot of him where he appears to have tears in his eyes just before unleashing the canisters.
Another explanation is that David learns something about these beings that tells him they are not going to be friendly to him and Shaw. He mentions that he learned a great deal about them.
Movie fanFacehuggerMember500 XPApr-27-2017 11:16 AM
I just realized that they should have NOT shown these scenes, They should have waited for the movie.
I Think i will leave this site, then return AFTER I seen the movie. (just to avoid spoilers)
Michelle JohnstonChestbursterMember763 XPApr-27-2017 12:24 PM
It is a curious one I haven't read any leaks or watched trailers I left the cinema before the new footage was played, but these prologues are E Mailed and they seem to me to be positional, placing us in the right place when we sit down and watch movie.
You can see the narrative of Prometheus hardening already, David's dismissive attitude towards Sir Peter was apparent "Don't we all want our parents to die' I talked extensively about his passive aggressive approach toward Sir Peter in the decision to wake up the Engineer and confront him ("There is nothing" "I know") but he is now going further, admitting that relationship had real consequences for him emotionally and has created a comparative more sophisticated view. He talks about Shaw's kindness comparatively to the lack of compassion shown by Sir Peter. He may view the spiking of Charlie's drink which Weyland encouraged quite differently now. I doubt he tells Elizabeth.
Loneliness now comes into play and if as others suspect Shaw, potentially riddled with the after effects of the pathogen dies, then those tears of anger and frustration from David as he unleashes armageddon provide him with both a personal and philosophical reason (which will have come out of his enquiries) to destroy the Engineers. The destruction of Paradise's inhabitants is a huge story point and requires very powerful reasons for this to be pursued at the outset of the story, setting up the world into which the Covenant arrives. This short provides that.
What is quite wonderful is when this idealistic ambitious group come upon David we know it is a David that has grown more dangerous not necessarily because he is simply wicked in a two dimensional way but because of his new sense of self driven by loss, perspective (they cannot be any worse) and a sense of moral relativism which has harnessed great power.
From the beginning he showed a capacity to display respect, that is at the root of his connection to Elizabeth, but equally he showed a capacity to lack respect and dismiss. "Only mortal after all". That type of judgement will I am sure play into his interaction with the crew of the Covenant.
Watching this turn of events I am less certain of how he and Walter will play out. Ridley doesn't have to play to formula but Weyland Yutani usually cloak their real intentions. Is the mission purely and simple a colonising mission or like A L I E N S a terraforming one that gets amended once new intel and options are available. My instinct is something else will surprise as regards the jeopardy.
Look forward to future exchanges.
DsparilOvomorphMember21 XPApr-27-2017 12:46 PM
Wasn't there a voice-over in the beginning of AC that was leaked where David specifically states that he is targeting mankind and attempting to stop them from expanding and that is the reason he develops the xenomorph?
Here it is: //www.alien-covenant.com/news/new-alien-covenant-footage-description-hint-at-davids-role-alien-covenant
It conflicts greatly with this prologue we have just been given. It doesn't make any sense. It's hard to tell if he's targeting mankind or the "Gods" or both. He seems to have disdain for the "Gods" but also mankind. It's confusing.
ETA: Also David doesn't look ragged at all in The Crossing. Complete contradiction from what is described in the link above about the footage. Was it a red herring or a bogus preview from Ridley Scott?
He also refers to mankind as a dying species trying to resurrect themselves. That doesn't make any sense. When we see mankind in the movie, it appears that they're doing just fine. Some things just dont add up. I'm willing to bet it's a bogus report in that link because The Crossing contradicts a lot of it..... BIGTIME.
dmx1138OvomorphMember33 XPApr-27-2017 1:10 PM
What if the next one is called "Awakening" because Shaw is in hypersleep for the entirety of "Covenant"?
BabylonxenoFacehuggerMember167 XPApr-27-2017 1:27 PM
A few ideas:
there is a hologram/ghost on the juggernaut that communicates with david and upsets him.
david and shaw forget lv223, want to meet the engineers again but they are hostile in any communication.
they find other engineers on this juggernaut, who david spys on, like prometheus, he then decides they should be bombed as they are bad apples.
JOHNNYMORPHOvomorphMember88 XPApr-27-2017 3:26 PM
Hello Everyone! Long-time lurker (with intent), I finally decided to take the plunge and dive in. Very hyped about Alien:Covenant and loving the build up to May 12th.
I've really enjoyed reading all your theories, ideas and thoughts about these special movies. Hopefully I can contribute to the discussion and help with the search for answers!
MrJonesyOvomorphMember24 XPApr-27-2017 3:33 PM
BigDaveDeaconMember10358 XPApr-27-2017 3:47 PM
Some good responses on here...
Indeed maybe David is Angry due to the loss of Shaw, but we dont know if she dies prior to the arrival at Paradise or where ever this World is (Planet 4). Its possible though.
David seemed to have a lot of affection for Shaw, and she seemed to be happy and smiling when Piloting to go to Paradise, this is either very strange and silly writing by John Logan or whoever draft this comes from or who is responsible..
Because they had a bit of conflict in Prometheus, and while things seems a bit better when she collected his Head, there is no way they can go to having such a Chummy Relationship like hours after....
I doubt its bad writing and their is a reason for how there Relationship has Built up.... so its more than a Question of Hours, or a Day.... this will explain the Hair Growth of 6-8 Inches for Dr Shaw.
So they likely had some time together, where a bond formed and David has felt respected and loved which is something he felt Mankind in General had not treated him this way.
David views himself as more than a Machine, but he is seen as such, even by his Creator... But with Shaw she has made him feel more respected like no different than a fellow Human should be.
The First Trailers Soundtrack fits this Perfectly Nature Boy
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn
Is to love and be loved in return"
Of all the knowledge and things David has learned, this is the one thing he has never truly felt, but being with Shaw has made him feel kindness and this has effected him.
So for him to be upset maybe some event happened to Shaw, that he blames the Engineers for...
However David was the one who was responsible, he spiked the Drink, and ok he was following Weylands Orders... I think he may have regretted this... and ultimately blames those beings. (Engineers).
JOHNNYMORPHOvomorphMember88 XPApr-27-2017 3:49 PM
Cheers, MrJonesy. Happy to finally join the crew!
I'm in the UK (About 1 mile away from where 'Alien' was filmed all those years ago)
BigDaveDeaconMember10358 XPApr-27-2017 4:01 PM
David had grown to realize how cruel Mankind is, but with Shaw he had found the Good in Humanity, and so this is a lot like the Movie "The Day the Earth Stood Still"
He certainly started to see the Good in Shaw, we can only imagine how he feels about this, as its likely Shaws Faith that contributes to her Good Kind Nature. This would pose a good question for David after no doubt covering similar Topics with Weyland, where his perspective of Creation is about Immortality and how he (Weyland) Aspires to be as GOD as a Selfish Act.. While Shaws connections to God, is looking at the Good in people.
This brings us to Shaws Question... what if they are no better than us.... which means the faults and wrongs of Mankind... David responds as long as they are No Worse.
We can maybe assume David however finds they are Worse, along the way.
He claimed while alone he learned of their ways, this can not be about their Technology... but maybe their Culture, their Agenda.
When David arrives he does look a bit upset, but to me its the Look of Revenge... so who knows what triggered this...
Engineers intentions for Mankind after David found the Good in Mankind, but failed to find any Good in the Engineers?
Or because something has happened or is happening to Shaw?
His comment is interesting... "Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair"
He realizes he is about to bring Hell down on these beings, that will cause them despair, he refers to them as Mighty because this is how they view themselves....
What does David mean by "Look on My Works"
The decision he has made, the Action he has taken.... or has he upgraded the Deadly Cargo to perform a different task? This would explain the different effects to in Prometheus and indeed a modification to the Weapon would be Davids Works.
DsparilOvomorphMember21 XPApr-27-2017 4:04 PM
I'm going to go with the hair growth being that they were in flight for at least half a year before she went in to sleep. I.e. took all the food from the lifeboat. I don't think Shaw is dead and I think the wheat field was for her sustenance. It is very possible that she is in group. I can see awakening being all about her and her transformation to immortality should that be David's quest. I was under the impression that Awakening is a sequel to Prometheus and a prequel to Covenant. Any truth to that?
I'd hate to see Shaw dead, but it's definitely be a good catalyst for David's actions. The droid without a soul who finally gets on through the loss of a loved one.
Eta: yes that is an engineer robe she is wearing cut down to size.
BigDaveDeaconMember10358 XPApr-27-2017 4:08 PM
Welcome aboard Johnnymorph ;)
If i continue.... the interesting thing is the cheering of the crowd as the Juggernaught returns... Why would they be cheering for?
The Returning of their Gods? or Hierarchy? why would they cheer the return of just Engineers if these are Engineers?
So maybe they are cheering and this is why the docking ship and Engineers never made a attempt to attack the Juggernaught, in the very Arrogance of these beings, they view themselves as Superior and could not even fathom that Mankind or our Creations would travel the Stars and obtain their Technology.
So they are maybe cheering the return of their Military back from War, a One-Sided Genocide? If they are cheerful because of the return of a Military Ship that has a purpose to Destroy those who these beings and Hierarchy Fear.. This would cement Davids answer to Shaw.... "provided they are no worse"
So these beings maybe actually celebrate the Destruction their Ships cause when they are out on Missions... and Arrogantly can never FATHOM one of their ships falling into the Wrong hands..
This would explain them letting their Guard down.
The Other Big Question....
What after these events has trigger David to Create that will lead to Death, unless he only views Shaw as being Kind.. and he judges Mankind on the Sum of all its parts...
JOHNNYMORPHOvomorphMember88 XPApr-27-2017 4:46 PM
Thanks BigDave, Great to be a part of this important mission! ;-)
The cheering crowds of humanoids seem to be gathering for a celebration of some sort. Maybe this is what they do to show their appreciation for the engineers who are returning from missions.
MrJonesyOvomorphMember24 XPApr-27-2017 4:48 PM
Maybe David judges humans to be the lesser of two evils in respect to the engineers after his research and Shaw's compassion towards him. I Like BigDave's idea that David has manipulated the mutagen to perform differently - I thought it was curious from images/footage that when the payload hits the bodies look to have been burned, and not mutated into creatures as one might expect from the original black goo effect.
Stan Winston (deceased)FacehuggerMember173 XPApr-27-2017 5:03 PM
Very nice knitwear fashioned by Shaw, in the remarkably well-appointed cryo-chamber. This has got to be a false account retold by David, to hide the truth. I wouldn't be surprised if the film refutes the prologue.
paleriderOvomorphMember13 XPApr-28-2017 12:56 AM
Did you guys notice something ?
The scene where Shaw is looking out of the window? As the camera pans from the window towards Shaw the thingy in between resembles the head of a xenomorph !!
Is Ridley trying to tell something?
Jim cameron did something like it on Aliens, remember Ripley as she was recovering in the hospital complex she was smoking a cigarette, the camera panned to her boney hand of hers which looked liked the feet of a face hugger !
LadyStardustOvomorphMember32 XPApr-28-2017 8:29 AM
Great insights you guys have here!
And @MrJonesy, good point about the burned bodies!
Since it's quite unlikely that David turned the black goo into scalding oil, this lead us to believe that, after David's attack, there was some kind of counteraction. There's no reason to think everyone down there got infected at once, and those who didn't probably knew what the contamination meant and took the necessary measures to prevent the infected from mutating by burning them.
This would lead us to many things we've seen so far on previous videos, like, David and Shaw's ship ending up crashed in the woods. And, thank you, Sir Ridley, that would mean we're going to see far more than just another bug hunt - or bugs hunting.
Chris10anOvomorphMember44 XPApr-28-2017 9:02 AM
For me this comes quite clear now, the events in "awakening" leads to Shaw`s death and the fault is the race or the group of humanoids David eliminates in the beginning of "covenant" , possibly he gets shot down but survives and turns the fight into guerilla tactic killing and experimenting on the rest of them, when the covenant crew arrives he has gone crazy from all his experience so far, or har lost faith in mankind, continuing his experiments and killing spree with his new toys. Therefore they find shaw`s tags and yes , indeed she is dead during AC but will have a bigger role in the next film.
Chris10anOvomorphMember44 XPApr-28-2017 9:08 AM
"Palerider" what you see, and what i now see, is the hallway in the background. And now that i noticed it, it looks like a xenomorph head is entering the picture from the left, if they did this intentionally i cannot believe where they get all these ideas from, but it`s genious.
David.9OvomorphMember20 XPApr-28-2017 11:16 AM
Remember. Shaw wants to have baby and she will be mother figure for David.
Capt DallasOvomorphMember18 XPApr-28-2017 11:44 AM
There are so many questions, in addition to Shaw's fate and David's motives. There is a crashed juggernaut in the woods, where did the docking ship go? Who was operating it? If they have left, do they warn other engineers? If unaffected by the pathogen, what was it's role in the crash of the juggernaut? What lies below (opened circular hatch) the large gathering area where the engineer- humanoids where gathered? In the Prometheus prologue, the Engineers had a very large ship with a different configuration. Where did that ship come from? Not likely Paradise. What will be the fate of the 2000 colonists on the Covenant mother ship? Do they ever awaken at another destination, or are they exterminated to prevent a possible mass infection? In the movie Alien, due to the special order given to Ash, the Weyland company definitely knows something with respect to the new species. What is the Companies real agenda and influence in the outcome of this movie? Are David's experimental eggs linked to the eggs found on the juggernaut in the Alien movie? I am hoping we get some answers from the movie because the trailers and shorts must only be a fraction of the story and is what occupies most of our attention.
chliChestbursterMember935 XPApr-28-2017 12:47 PM
A wonderful prologue. David as the lonely boy and Shaw as the lonely girl, both seeking the ultimate answers and both disappointed with life. Is love possible between an android and a human? Did you notice that Shaw still wears the crucifix and the ring on her finger? What happens to Shaw? Does David decide to drop the urns of destruction before or after Shaw is gone? A wonderful crossing!
Michelle JohnstonChestbursterMember763 XPApr-29-2017 10:18 AM
I am delighted to see you picked up on the atmosphere and emotional context of this wonderful short.
Imagine you have just been through hell. Your key relationships (whether good or bad) destroyed and now at last there is some calm. Both of them are deeply traumatised and affected physically. You will recall in our passive aggressive conversation I talked about them developing a Co Dependent relationship. Here it is writ large.
David is now displaying far more relative morality. As observer of mankind and engineers that crushing remark "they cannot be any worse". This created being looking on the hierarchy and being disappointed in those whom he looked to for leadership and guidance (rather like the disillusioned child of parents and grandparents).
Shaw shows him compassion and yet at some point he losses her and is left amongst the ruins of a civilisation he destroyed. If his humanity grows then so I suspect will a certain kind of madness which counterpoints to the ever so logical Walter. ( as I write that I realise thats a freudian slip because Michael has said he was channelling Spoke for Walter).
Madness, enormous power and an ambitious group of humans ready to spread out into the galaxy. A potent brew.
NoV4CoRpSOvomorphMember15 XPApr-29-2017 1:02 PM
Hey guys, just to notify you, here is a link for watching the Alien Covenant : In Utero VR experience
It seems that is the Protomorph birth (Backbuster) from the movie. Creepy experience ! :)
Great article by the way, really love your analysis !
centrosphereOvomorphMember45 XPApr-29-2017 6:56 PM
There is a link for a clip with the first ten minutes of the movie at AVPGalaxy.
See it at your own discretion.
AdamPDFacehuggerMember198 XPApr-29-2017 11:00 PM
Regarding the cheering crowds, I guess it's very similar to what we experience here in the UK, when the Royal family comes out on the balcony, people line up outside the palace and wait, then cheer when they see her.
If you watch the Prologue video in full screen, you can see people flocking in from the city area to the central one.
Something else I noticed, those metal things which are coming out of the walls and going upwards, they don't look like the vases/bombs we see hanging in the central area, they look like the wrong shape?
lanceOvomorphMember18 XPApr-30-2017 5:23 AM
Last David's words are from Percy Shelley poetry "Ozymandias". Very interesting poetry in context of Covenant. Also Shelley known as author of "Prometheus Unbound"
I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”
Michelle JohnstonChestbursterMember763 XPApr-30-2017 11:16 AM
Some of the elements of this short will appear in the movie, but Fox have confirmed its not all integrated into the narrative as we see it. The conversation may well be with Walter, the rational up to date A. I., listening to what may appear ravings from this hermit of 10 years. However the quote from the poem ten years on will be more applicable, the twin poem written by Shelley's colleague was to describe a shattered and broken London of the future.
Equally Daniels might be able to trigger the flight recorder of the juggernaut and view holographic recordings of David and Elizabeths journey. We have seen David's vision of how the matter went on the crossing, and given only a fraction of the film audience will view all of this short, I do not think this is a false trail. For a false trail to work it has to be part of the movie.
The Cheering Crowds
The population below are vast and numerous. Their view of whom is in the juggernaut is interesting. Most logically they would expect them to be the warrior class who left to carry out experiments elsewhere. They and the docking vehicle have come to greet them. This suggests a meeting of friends. What will be interesting in Covenant is to see whether the evolution of this warrior class, who appear genetically modified and different to the burned and disfigured corpses leaked last year, is explained.
Is their genetic modification, like the creation of the Alien pathogen part of their Covenant breaking, clearly the message of the final scene, which the film may cover setting the scene before switching to us bonding with the Covenant, indicates their creators have abandoned them, why, and what did David discover en route ?
The other part of the jigsaw is this populations connection with the acolyte from the Prometheus Prologue. This magnificent creature ridden to a planet for sacrifice and death, echoes of the Poetic Edda, the Valkyries taking the Einherjar to Valhalla (Paradise) for sacrifice in Ragnorak, which David, we are told, will evoke in his piece played on the piano to Weyland, in the room which has the the view of the lake which was on the flight path of the tear drop ship -- fascinating as Spock would say.
centrosphereOvomorphMember45 XPApr-30-2017 12:06 PM
Sorry if someone has covered this before.
The poem which last verse David is declaming _ "Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!" _ is derisory. The verse is actually a cautionary tale against excessive proud. The verse describes an encounter between the narrator and a traveler that found ruins in the desert, ruins that exihibited the exalted words of King Ozymandias. The final of the verse says:
"And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains: round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away."
In all probability this verse, in David´s mouth, is a cruel irony about the fate of the beings behind (be them Engineers or not).
BlueantOvomorphMember41 XPApr-30-2017 7:30 PM
I have been thinking about this for long time. I would like to make a somewhat formal suggestion and request for the Scified.com web site.
First I would like to get some ideas from other members on how we can get real time chat on this web site.
I like being able to to read everything that is here; however, in keeping up with modern communications communities all over the Internet are going to real time chat for their members.
Also, I would like to get an idea of how many people would be interested in just having a real-time Teamspeak server that we can all go into and hang out. Of course these are things that Chris would have to implement and approve.
I know that having real time chat in here could help Chris to monetize different and more lucrative types of advertising. There are plenty of free services to implement this so it should be another tool for community members to communicate with each other in real time.
I will be setting up a Teamspeak server here in a few days as we get closer to the launch of the movie.
Please show a raise of hands and any interest in any of these ideas so that we can create a better and stronger community here. Also if you are in touch with Chris at a more senior level of administration it would be nice as well to pass along these and any other ideas we can all start taking to help build this community even more.
A lot of members here have been coming for about half a decade now. That is a level of dedication that deserves the best communications capabilities that the Internet can provide.
Undoubtedly many of you have put hundreds if not thousands of hours devoted to building this community over the past several years so I believe it is time to have more ways to communicate effectively for the greater good of the entire community, so that it can grow to the next level.
I have no doubt that this site has influenced the making of the newest installment in the Alien franchise.
What we all want from the site can be achieved. For example, exclusives with actors, production, and even perhaps directors. However; with out more leader ship from Chris and stronger teamwork from everyone here we will not be able to achieve these goals. Chris will need more revenues from the site to take on these projects because it takes time and money to make these contacts in the film industry.
I have no doubt with the traffic and devoted interest that is on the site right now that these goals can be achieved. The film industry cannot ignore a community with millions of hits each week or each day for that matter.
Please show your support and lets make this community the number one movie website on the Internet.
ResurgenceFacehuggerMember437 XPMay-01-2017 4:03 AM
After DAVID's head is reattached he reminds me of me when I was younger taking care of my mom when something would happen to her, so this begs the question; does DAVID view Dr. Shaw as a mother of sorts?
ResurgenceFacehuggerMember437 XPMay-01-2017 4:10 AM
The reason DAVID seems to display pain harkens back to when he was putting Dr. Shaw to sleep. "What if they're like us?" "So long as they're no worse." He discovered something that makes them definitively worse, and he realizes that what he is about to do makes him no better than them and I believe DAVID might have gone to wake Dr.Shaw up to only to realize that she passed away and probably did what I did when my mother passed away; lash out at anyone and everyone.
NoonespecialOvomorphMember27 XPMay-01-2017 4:48 PM
The ship that David is flying is ancient and surely the inhabitants of Paradise would have known that, it might be doubtful the population on Paradise would have known about the ship in their life time, isn't the ship supposed to be 2000 years old??
I don't understand why they would be running out to welcome an ancient bomber, which would be carrying a payload of death.
LegendeVOvomorphMember40 XPMay-01-2017 5:11 PM
They could we make a movie centered in the past on engineers or space jocket without this company weyland / yutani. Allowing us to see more closely their technology, their custom, their society, their mode of repoduction. And especially the creation of the first humans: man and woman, and not the creation of xenomorphs
Capt DallasOvomorphMember18 XPMay-01-2017 5:19 PM
After looking at the prologue repeatedly, the following got my attention; 1)Shaw is shown in 2 separate scenes drinking from a cup. The first time she is alone staring to the light, the second is when she is examining the star charts. One wonders what she could use for nourishment on that ship for a long duration. Since engineers used cryo sleep pods, supplies may not be enough for long travel. (her dog tags were also visible hanging) 2) As the juggernaut arrives in Paradise and moves towards the center of the gathering area, in two consecutive shots from different perspectives, one above the juggernaut clearly shows the circular bay door on the surface level opening, potentially an underground hanger for ship storage, the next scene is looking up at the juggernaut and with close inspection one can observe the hatch were the pathogens are about to be dropped opening. With the amount of people gathered, it may not be a implausible to assume that David sent some prior communication to generate this event, if not, if gives new meaning to being at the wrong place at the wrong time. As soon a the juggernaut was in place, David was prepared to launch the pathogen, which is clearly premeditated. Two questions; what happens to Shaw? What was David's motivation. In the case of Shaw, she is left in Cyro sleep. I found it strange that whe she is with David in the navigation room, she asks how long and David's response is impossible to say. This is a little suspicious since he was managing the Prometheus trip for 2.5 years over 39 light years. He understands the navigation system and is higher scientific intelligence. Although it may have been a necessity for Shaw to be put in Cryo sleep, it also gives him opportunity to investigate the engineers freely without input or judgement by Shaw. Shaw's objective is to speak with the engineers, not destroy. Awake, she would likely object, unless of course David did wake her prior and had found justification for the genocide and she freely colluded. I find this more consistent with David's behavior than Shaw. In the Prometheus Blue Ray, there is an extra which is Peter Weyland's file. Specifically written logs by Weyland (background material) In a section on Shaw, he calls her naive Of David, he is designed to understand human emotion but will never feel emotion. He states that David is designed to carryout directives which would be distressful and unethical to his human counterparts in order to complete his objectives. Without reference, it may seem like a dumb question, but did she repair David from compassion or necessity for survival? Her hair is visibly longer in the scene during her repair of David, so it was not immediate. Did David "earn" her trust. By putting David together, this is the trigger for everything that happens after and empowers David by removing his dependence on Shaw. The relationship is changed to Davids advantage, even if unintentional. Her outcomes are difficult. If she awakens after the juggernaut crashes, she has a high probability of being exposed to the pathogen spreading on the planet, specially if she leaves the ship. If she remains in cryo sleep, when the covenant crew investigates the juggernaut and enter the bridge/navigation room, they should discover the sleep chambers. Since Noomi Rapace does not film long, I am not holding much hope. If she is no longer alive this is similar to Hicks and Newt in Alien 3. I believe that her cross/necklace will come up and reveal her fate. David's motivations are even harder to decipher. He admires Shaw, but he experimented and killed Holloway. Compassion is not compatible with genocide. If the Engineers on LV-223 were going to exterminate Earth 2000 years ago, even with the events on 223, they still had 2000 yrs to execute the plan, why haven't they? Some of the cave paintings found by Shaw and Holloway date between 600 and 700 AD. This implies they did return to Earth after this mission failed or was sabotaged. Could this be a preemptive strike on David's part? He has seen the Engineers ways. David does see himself as superior. Weyland saw himself as a god for creating David, a superior life form. Irony is David has what Weyland wanted immortality. For David to be a god he has to create perfect life. Gods are worshiped, that theme clearly visible in Paradise with all the Giant heads. Who is god? How much of what David does is Weyland Corporation directives. In the Blue ray materials Weyland states that he did not invest to travel to 223 because of Shaw and Holloway (he called them zealots), his company had discovered signals on 426 long before with deep scans. His says in the file that only David has this information, and his instructions are to act on this after they discover any assets or technology on 223. The company policy is to "imbed" one synthetic per mission. You would think you would send a full complement of synthetics. Synthetics give the company control and the perfect survivor. Why do you need humans for deep space exploration? (Experimentation) Does David really evolve emotionally? When he says as long as they are no worse than us, he really set the bar low.
BigDaveDeaconMember10358 XPMay-01-2017 5:55 PM
"Remember. Shaw wants to have baby and she will be mother figure for David."
Indeed.... this could be something David could help her with.
BigDaveDeaconMember10358 XPMay-01-2017 6:15 PM
sorry for your loss, and indeed grief can cause many emotions, particularly if the grieving person feels that the loss of the loved one was due to some injustice, or illness that had taken them way before their time. And if they feel they did not do enough or wish they had done more it could indeed cause reactions.
Berefting on David behalf could affect him badly if he feels he found the only Being who made him feel accepted.
Indeed there is a lot that could be covered between the events of Post Prometheus to Alien... it will be interesting to see which of these will be addressed and which will remain mystery
chliChestbursterMember935 XPMay-02-2017 9:40 AM
Michelle: I'm glad that David isn't a one dimensional character but complex: He isn't evil but curious and evolves emotionally (love, loss, revenge - hatred). But what is your definition of passive aggressive? Isn't David very active - dropping the mutagen on the unsuspecting engineers? He is not a sullen, protesting person?
johnnykOvomorphMember11 XPMay-02-2017 3:29 PM
Hello everyone, I'm new a new member. I've read articles and comments previously but this is my 1st interaction:
There are so many good theories, opinions and I hope I don't seem, dismissive by asking the following:
Has anyone really studied the artwork of HR. Giger (in the way you would study artwork from a college level Art History course)?
After re-watching Prometheus & the extended scenes I honestly think the movie gives more answers than questions. Sound, tone, art... this all plays a pivotal role. The Alien is based on Giger's art, and thus whether R.Scott intended to or not, so is the story or rather stories, are based on Giger's Art.
As an artist myself, the mural's in the "head room," offer a ton of clues. Granted Alien Convent has made many people re-watch Prometheus and realize that perhaps a Deacon and not the pathogen was responsible for the Engineer's demise. I have always thought it to be much like all the other movies, (it's often more than one thing like the movies... a derelict ship, egg & Alien or cause & effect), which the logical explanation... is both the Goo/Pathogen & a Deacon/Alien at the very least.
Another big question I wonder is: In Prometheus, has anyone asked if Goo/Pathogen can harm (obviously) but also help evolve? The beginning of Prometheus, suggests the goo used may be linked but is modified to bring life vs. a out right weapon. This would be like snakes venom (in layman's terms). The very poison can also be the antidote.
I bring this up because I keep reading about 2 different Engineer factions. This doesn't make sense unless, one has evolved. And I only bring this up because of this new prologue. The cheering Engineer looking guys aren't the same muscular, pale white Engineer's of Prometheus.
Also... On LV223, the last Engineer... is that really a suit the last engineer is wearing? It looks nothing like the suits the rest of the engineers are wearing on the hologram's. Even the toys, it suggests a "bio-mechanical" feel, like the xenomorphs. Off-topic: this aways bothered me too... the aliens look bio-mechanical but, are more like ants and have exoskeletons. Giger loves "bones." The only true bio-mechnical constant, in these movies are the androids!
Did I miss something that states the last Engineer is wearing a suit? And what about the aliens themselves? Are they truly bio-mechanical or only look that way? I always thought of them like insects (just smarter & have acid blood that ironically harms both mechanical and bio based material).
Sorry for all the questions. I know I sound like a hypocrite saying Prometheus has all these answers while asking more than a few here. My interests are peaked & I often find there's more than one way to answer a question correctly when it isn't math. ;) I'm also bringing up Prometheus a lot because, there are so many great theories. I love the movie!
Thanks in advance for any answers!
BigDaveDeaconMember10358 XPMay-02-2017 5:15 PM
"Did I miss something that states the last Engineer is wearing a suit? And what about the aliens themselves? Are they truly bio-mechanical or only look that way?"
Sorry to say but the Xenomorph and Engineer are Suits..
LOL but while thats just a joke/trolling... i think its a valid point made by me ;)
You see if you look at that image of Bolaji Badejo and remove the Hands/Gloves and Tone down some other elements then indeed its not too far different to the Engineers Suits.
The Engineers in Prometheus was wearing the Pressure Suit and its a Suit that is attached to the Engineers, and its like if you was to wear a Snake Skin Suit but this Suit then attaches to your body so you are wearing the Snake Skin the same as the Snake that it came from does. Then image this Bio-Technology and apply it to this.
This suit then allows them to connect to the Pilot Chair and also the Space Jockey Bio-Hazard/Pilot Suits.
Here we have Ian Whyte ready for shooting as the Engineer, next image he is having the Space Jockey Suit fitted before maybe Spraying, but then again if its the Ghost Engineer Scene they maybe dont need to color it.
Last Image is Shaw next to the Space Jockey suit Props.
BigDaveDeaconMember10358 XPMay-02-2017 5:22 PM
Welcome Aboard anyway ;)
A lot of the Questions have been discussed here so i will keep its short and sweet well i will try.
Prometheus had Answers, just you had to dig deep to find them and cross reference them with other clues in the Franchise, and Deleted Scenes and other Drafts.. The movie alone does offer Clues however but its not as clear cut to make a 100% accurate interpretation.
HR Gigers Design was Unique, each movie seems to had diluted it a bit, i do agree that they should have followed his ideas, as they was very Alien as the Ship was actually Organic and Grown like a Plant, the Ship would produce the Eggs in the Cargo Hold (Earlier ideas was the Egg Silos Produced them), and the Humanoid Space Jockeys Sacrifice themselves to allow the Xenomorph to Procreate.
Prometheus showed different effects than Alien Covenant, which is a contradiction however the idea for Alien and the original Prequel was the Derelict had 8 different Cargo Holds with 8 variations of Eggs... so maybe the Juggernaught has different types of Bio-Weapons in its Cargo Holds and the one Cargo Hold that the Urns drop from in AC have a different effect to others David obtains from the other Cargo Hold to conduct Experiments.
Chris10anOvomorphMember44 XPMay-03-2017 1:28 AM
Remember that most likely there is event of an entire movie (Awakening)leading up to the scene with David delivering the payload.
chliChestbursterMember935 XPMay-04-2017 11:21 AM
By the way, did you notice that it sounds as if "the audience" below cheers as the juggernaut attaches to the docking device? What are they expecting? At least not what they get . . .
Capt DallasOvomorphMember18 XPMay-05-2017 12:22 PM
In attempting to understand David's possible motivation for his actions, it maybe of use to theorize what knowledge he has uncovered about the engineers. This is purely speculative and likely the product of vivid imagination. Much has been made about the relationship of paradise lost and the unwrapping of this story. From the context of the story, what if the accounts from early man, the foundations of religion, were actual representations of stories given to them by engineers during their early visits to earth with respect to mankind's creation and the nature of their creators. This may seem too convenient, but maybe not coincidental. At the start of Prometheus, there are elders and an engineer, the engineer is not the creator, but raw material. If one examines the container which encloses the chemical, the lid of the container has the image of a tree. (expanded in deleted scenes). The engineer disintegrates, literally becoming dust (religious reference/interpretation God made man from dust) The symbolism of the tree, tree of knowledge/life. Mankind colonizes to expand and preserve the human species. Why can't engineers simply colonize, unless they are unable to reproduce naturally. Is the creation of mankind intended to preserve and eventually replenish/replace engineers? The religious similarity was that part of the rationale for the creation of man by God is intended to fill the void in heaven which resulted from the expulsion of the fallen angels. The fallen angels led by Lucifer, is a result of his belief in his superiority and equivalence to god and the rejection of man, as inferior and not worthy of their subservience. The faction of disloyal angels goes to war with god and is defeated and expelled. Satan then turns his attention to man, gods creation. His intention, to corrupt and destroy, to punish god. In the context of the story, the rebel faction of engineers could view early man as unworthy, flawed, and too inferior to ever evolve as eventual equals. They enhance themselves, and "corrupt" the chemical of creation (knowledge) to create from their own image, a species superior to mankind (xenomorph) with the purpose not only to destroy, but replace and propagate. As in early writings, the disloyal engineers plan is unsuccessful and they are victimized by their own creation, accidentally or intentionally. This account, the foundation of religion, interpreted by man, is a convenient plot device for the background of the engineers, (loyal/disloyal), god, and the purpose of the xenomorphs. In the movies, David is man's creation as man has evolved, but from Davids perspective, he is much more than man, with unlimited potential to evolve. With the death of Weyland, he no longer is bound to answer to or serve man. He has acquired significant knowledge on the ship and on the planet. He may view the engineers on the planet as inferior because they serve a higher intelligence, which will never allow them to evolve and realize their potential to evolve further. He has no need for them as they are likely an obstacle for his ultimate goals, and "removes them" His knowledge gives him the opportunity for the perfect bait to set his trap. Are the engineers extinct? Is David the last engineer? The knowledge of the creation chemical, corrupted to the black goo is the holy grail, (not literally). David's experimentation is not just to create, but it seems, to replicate the disloyal engineers development of this new species, xenomorphs. Human life are raw material needed for him to be successful. David's agenda may not be linked to the company, where Walter most likely is, these competing agendas may bring conflict, but do they overlap? From the perspective of the creators, David would not an existential threat as long as he confined to the planet and not able to leave. (God must know, and see everything?) Shaw may have been partially right in her beliefs, with exception of the engineers (angels) being god. Does she get closure? David's long term objectives could be directed at man, god, or both. This theory in general, could be completely wrong specially with David's motivations. The trailers have just provided a lot of "red meat", (pardon the expression) in the tradition of Alien. No clues to anything more profound. In reflecting on this story, I don't know why, I think of a conversation from a movie a long time ago, " All my life I have awaited your coming and dreaded it like death itself. Man's wisdom goes hand in hand with his idiocy. His emotions must rule his brain. He is a creature who gives battle to everything around him, even himself. The forbidden zone was once a paradise, your breed made a desert of it. Don't look for answers. You may not like what you find" The original Planet of the Apes, with the Ape, Dr. Zaius warning Col.Taylor (Charlton Heston) before he leaves in search of his destiny.
bregoOvomorphMember81 XPMay-06-2017 1:09 AM
Questions I am left with......
Why is the cryo tube human size?
Where did the synthetic humanoid repair kit come from?
What has Dr Shaw been eating?
Why does anyone think that David is doing anything else but saving Dr Shaw's life by putting her into cryo sleep?
I suspect and hope that Ridley is playing with us with this teaser.