Alien Movie Universe

Covenant and its connection to the other films

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Jeri.theSOB

MemberOvomorphMay-22-2017 6:59 PM

I posted this in another thread as a comment but felt since i hadn't really had a good discussion on this film since my viewings of it i wanted to see others thoughts. 

befor I start I want to say I did enjoy prometheus not initially but after a bit it grew on me, covenant I feel the same my first viewing I was a bit disappointed mainly in the run time it needed to be longer and more developed in terms of characters, but after my second viewing i found i liked it quite a lot especially the setting/ visuals and creature design for the neo and the new protomorph. I did really like the characters after watching all the promo material with them in it, especially the last supper and the crossing prolog. I definitely want to see more films in the series and have more expanded lore in other media. but going on to my thoughts..

my biggest issue is with the film was how the AI and by extension Humanity is now responsible for the "Alien".. that would undermine the themes and concepts put forth by the first film and the prometheus film. the big chap or "alien" was intended to be the most literal alien thing we could come across in the deepest parts of space, it illustrated the universal horror of the unknown void and how vast the galaxy was that in all our time in space the first interaction with this creature wiped out the whole crew and was completely "alien" to us. a beautiful creature of horror and untold history in the void, but if david is the creator than it reduces the threat to that of a small one off population of genetic frankenstein mutants not "aliens" while they still look alien the themes from the film and the purpose of their existence would be diminished. 

the ever present and ancient danger of the alien would now be gone.

that would be like changing the terminators from AI who took over and saying "oh it was really a human brain powering skynet" the movies theme of being carful when messing with AI" would vanish and now its just " dont put a human brain in control of war machines it may be evil."

While the concept of david creating his own life is cool and a dark story it could have been done by simply having him trying to recreate the xeno/ big chap from things he read of the engineers and puts his own spin on it making the neomorph. and the themes of both these films would stick just fine. 

but again i liked both prequel films and plan to watch them many times. my current ranking of alien films is:

Alien 1979, alien 3, covenant, aliens,prometheus, resurrected and I could care less for the AVP films. 

my only reason for aliens being lower in my list is how it reduced the horror and made the aliens into space bugs.

 

30 Replies

joylitt

MemberNeomorphMay-22-2017 11:00 PM

I understand your point. You are not alone, as many other Alien fans are clinging to their last hopes to see the alien creatures depicted as something more than the creation of an android. They base those hopes on details like the door decoration in "Prometheus" and things like that. But I don't think Ridley Scott will provide any more backstory in a sequel. He is just going forward with his A.I. plotline, that is if 20th Century Fox let him get away with it.

seqoi

MemberOvomorphMay-22-2017 11:03 PM

You really said it well wit this: 

a beautiful creature of horror and untold history in the void, but if david is the creator than it reduces the threat to that of a small one off population of genetic frankenstein mutants not "aliens" while they still look alien the themes from the film and the purpose of their existence would be diminished. 

the ever present and ancient danger of the alien would now be gone.

I told the same thing. Alien world would survive if they made David being a creator of Xeno for THIS particular movie, in this particular planet, by engineering and studying particular Engineers paper and knowledge leftover - and made it CLEAR.

But no now i am supposed to believe that AI did Xeno even though we can see Xenomorph statue on Prometheus mural (when they David and Prometheus crew arrived) and there are facehuggers on mural as well - explicitly telling us that Engineers knew for all this way before David and crew arrived on planet in movie Prometheus. 

I am going to see movie today actually. I hope i won't be so disappointed...i waited so long and it look like i am going to get unintelligent sci fi horror flick with great images and stupid brainless story. 

Jeri.theSOB

MemberOvomorphMay-22-2017 11:21 PM

Don't let the story direction hurt your enjoyment. agan i still liked this movie quite a lot for the things it got right. i just take issue with the gutting of the themes the alien movies and lore was known for. i still think things are ambiguous enough to say the xeno is still ancient, especially with one of davids lines in the film. 

joylitt

MemberNeomorphMay-22-2017 11:24 PM

Jeri.theSOB But do you realize that if the ancient xeno theory is right that makes David obsession with creation rather dumb? Isn't he intelligent enough to understand he is not creating anything?

Jeri.theSOB

MemberOvomorphMay-22-2017 11:44 PM

Think about it this way he had a line "I have found perfection.. i have created it" He states he found it befor he states he created it. As i stated he may have found history of this creature and only a basic blueprint and how the black pathogen creates multiple forms of xeno like creatures and wants to build one of his own. 

just cause i create a chair for my living room does not mean i was the first to make a chair. 

the biomechanical Xeno from the fist film looked way to similar to the engineers biosuits and the last engineers biomechanical skin as well as the derelict to be created completely separate from the engineers with no relation other than the goo. 

The room where david looked like he was going to rape Daniels seemed like a record room since all those scrolls had slots that were built by the engineers. david also states he learned of there ways, they create things with genetics, its not out of the question that david found a basic blueprint and started creating a xeno like creature in his image.  

its obvious the creature in this film was very different from the ones in previous films.

another note and i hate to go back to the murals, but there were face huggers on that wall as well as the ceiling having a mural of xeno hands holding an open egg.

and the engineer cryopods n prometheus had chestburster sized holes in them also. 

that and how would he know the eggs in his chamber where "successes" if he had no humans or life to test them. we saw steps toward their creation but how did he know he was close. or even at the point of having a functioning life form without some prior knowledge. 

 

Michelle Johnston

MemberChestbursterMay-22-2017 11:48 PM

Thank you for your thoughtful article.

It is quite clear to me that Ridleys vision and fans expectation of the xxx121 are out of step with each other. 

Ridley for many years has held to the view the Derelict is a Bomber and the cargo a weapon - no more no less.

The point of Prometheus, as Jon Spaihts said, was to give the XXX121 a creation story. With the right execution it should have been entirely clear what was actually going on in Prometheus.

Engineers, Space Gardeners stole the fire.

They began sub creating and created the ALIEN mutagen, that was the problem it got out of control and destroyed them and become a thing of punishment and even the refined version the Deacon reminds us of the Promethean myth.

So the top of the A L I E N hierarchy is what is now called the Alien Pathogen. It takes positive creation and turns whatever it latches on to into over sexualised outcomes which are deeply unsympathetic to its original host. Depending on the target the result changes whether Worm, Engineer or Mankind and Covenant confirms it bends and changes eco systems.

The XXX121 is merely a bi product of that. The Engineers created the forerunner the Deacon and sacrificed it immortalised it in their art and buried it in a tomb.

David has now pushed on further spurred on by his unique programme and refined what has gone before. This story I am certain will be told in ALIEN : Origins, the tie in prequel novel to Covenant released in September and written by Alan Dean Foster.

The xxx121 is revered by fans for its design and its iconic contributions to the first two films, but in the end it is an endoparaistoid which the good in humanity triumph over. Though humans in the form of Weyland Yutani believe like the Engineers with the pathogen, they can coral it to their benefit.   

At a dramatic level its very clear now from Covenant as a central focus in a film it is cooked and its only those who seek to harness it or stop it and the reasons why they stop it that are interesting.

If people want to sit and munch pop corn and hear cracking bones and see blood I doubt they will find the fix from this creature anymore its to familiar, its behaviour to well known and along with all the other pathogens outcomes it is one of several. That I suspect is at the heart of some segment of the audiences disappointment. They needed to be shown it was cooked. Putting Sigorneay in front of the creature will not make the slightest difference either.

However there is another segment who feel there lore is being undermined and they are right to be disappointed from that perspective. Ridley has changed the lore since Prometheus and people are also concerned about gestation timing and infection realities. 

For me to see this beautifully designed creature who is deeply unsympathetic, has no moral compass reduced to the creation of a robot whose original programming was deeply dysfunctional (both complete and immortal but without soul) and through apartheid experiences with humans comes to hate them is the perfect morality tale. David feels left out scorned misunderstood and will use that latent hate to do anything to express that hate. Sound familiar.   

joylitt

MemberNeomorphMay-23-2017 12:14 AM

Michelle Johnston You sound like an expert! However, for me to be a morality tale there would have to be more information about the human counterparts, and that is a huge vortex of nothingness in both Prometheus and Covenant. What is the lesson we humans are supposed to learn? Are we being punished because we are stupid? Because we are evil? Because we defy a natural order of things? Whatever it is, these prequels haven't been able to determine that.

seqoi

MemberOvomorphMay-23-2017 3:33 AM

Jeri.TheSOB (sorry i don't see quote button so i have to copypaste and make italic your words)

 

Think about it this way he had a line "I have found perfection.. i have created it"  - you see (assuming this is David sentence from movie) this is not the same. If they said "I have found perfection.. i have RECREATED it" noone would complain. No one.

"just cause i create a chair for my living room does not mean i was the first to make a chair. "

Precisely! But you would say then that you recreated or remake it. Not created it. You saw chair somewhere, you found scheme somewhere and you recreated it. Not created it.

Creation is not the same as building something from memory or from someone else design. Newer was. 

 

And thanks for advice i am going to see movie today and will enjoy "right" things no doubt about that.

 

I can only hope Ridley will make it more obvious in Covenant prequel. The fact that these engineers in covenant looks different and wear different outfit to Prometheus engineers gives him plausible room for making things right.

zeppo

MemberOvomorphMay-23-2017 5:49 AM

I always felt that the Engineers have already designed the Alien. and david is merely finishing what they started. I also believe the Engineers created Humans purely to be host to the Alien creatures in order to for the perfect organism to be created. Why where the engineers coming to kill humans on earth? because we had reached the point in our evolution that was necessary for the alien to be perfect.. 

Jeri.theSOB

MemberOvomorphMay-23-2017 7:22 AM

seqoi yes but david didn't specifically set out to create xeno, atleast from what he said. he set out to create Life, just as peter weyland created david. (david for the most part is exactly human in appearance and emotional function) wayland didn't create the human image but he did create the synthetic life aspect. 

David may not have created the image or original xeno design but he did create his own form of it being the proto xeno. 

just like my chair, i created it. its the only chair like it, its similar to how some chairs look but it is my creation its specifically designed by me while inspired by others work its still my creation. 

and going back to the david quote. i could have found what i think to be the perfect chair, then i spend the time using the same wood(black goo) and then working hard to perfect and design it in a way that suit me and honors the original while having my own style to it. the chair while inspired or similar to the original would be mine in its conception with its own style being an echo of my hand.  no one els could say they created my chair, some one could say they inspired it but not created it. 

remember the creature in this film is quite different in design from the classic, and david's ultimate goal was to create life. 

just as my wife and I could create life we aren't the first to create a human. david cant have kids and neither could shaw now he has the tools to create life. 

chli

MemberChestbursterMay-23-2017 8:54 AM

Yes, it would be impossible for Scott to make us alien fans accept that David created the Xenomorph (unless he’s become senile or looked too deep into the whisky bottle). I think we can swallow that David re-created and perfected it - the perfect being (without the flaws of mankind or engineers). Ash will, later on, call it “the perfect organism”.

Something similar to the xenomorph must have existed even prior to the engineers. As we all know we see “the perfect being” in the mural on LV-223, the engineers were chestbursted, the creation of the deacon from the pathogen (I wonder if mutagen isn’t a better word by the way) etc. The space jockey on LV-426 must have perished due to the same outbreak as on LV-223 (according to Lindelof I think there were 12 facilities there - and one juggernaut escaped with the deadly cargo but didn’t get far).

I see David as the link to the original Alien movie, not as the creator of the xenomorph (but perfecting it) but as the information transmittor - passing the knowledge along to Ash, Mother and perhaps WY. Ash would, therefore, be interested in the area around Zeta 2 Reticuli - searching for the perfect being which must be out there somewhere.

Apart from this, the Beauty and the Beast story between David and Shaw (told through Prometheus, The Crossing and The Covenant is a beautiful story within the story, like Arwen and Aragorn and Luthien and Beren). Alas, David is full of hate towards his creator (Sir Peter/mankind and towards the engineers), and being an android, he cannot create life (children) together with the one he loves (Shaw is also sterile) so he finds another way . . .

Grinning & Dropping Linen

MemberFacehuggerMay-23-2017 9:34 AM

@Jeri.theSOB

While i really really enjoyed Covenant....I am in full agreement with you. It is far more creative and inspiring for it to be this mystery from the ancient vastness of space than be caused by humanity or AI. I think the fact that actual humanity has lost their sense of imagination is the reason these movies are being done this way. Humans have no imagination anymore and need everything spelled out for them. I personally admired the unanswered questions put forth by 1979 Alien, no who, no why, just that it was there and no understanding of it or where it came from or where it might appear next. It was alien in every way- name, behavior and appearance. Just a walking fever dream in the darkness of space that is horror and death  personified.that is more frightening and grabs a hold of you much better than knowing everything and having its creation and source explained.

I feel the only way they could save some of that original sense of awe is to have some higher more powerful race of beings that we have not seen yet show up. Perhaps they are the reason for the mural in Prometheus. The Engineers even answer to them, they are Lovecraftian, all powerful and darkly malicious. Perhaps they sense or learn of David and is activities and come to lay their wrath and show their true power, exact revenge on David and possibly our humans that are involved as collateral damage.

perhaps in a clever creative way they display some horrific power using the black goo. Perhaps it is them using their power, their own creation the "black goo" to manipulate creation and possibly Davids creation into a truly perfect organism, the bio-mechanical creature Big Chap from 1979. Perhaps this is how David meets his end, he dies, by extension through his own creation, although this is not what he created it is the original abomination from 1979 put in play using David's meddlings by this high power race from the vastness of space. Perhaps they could do it in a way that shows how scary the dark is and it could hint at what else, by their hand, could be waiting for humanity in the ancient dark corners of the universe.

Michelle Johnston

MemberChestbursterMay-23-2017 1:07 PM

@Joylitt

Morality Tale 

Prometheus Morality Tale Themes

We are the Gods now - the search by Peter Weyland for immortality trying to cheat death. "There is nothing in the desert and no man needs nothing".

Sacrifice - in order to sub create the Iggi like Engineers produced the Alien Mutagen which has lead to their extinction.

Mankind expressed through weakness, cruelty and fuelled by greed. These are the reasons that David in Covenant offers for his decision stop the colonising by mankind but it is also the reason the "Gods" - the Engineers wanted to destroy mankind. This is explained allegorically in the prologue of the Covenant through the choice of music and made clear in the novelisation of the movie by ADF. It is also explained in the narrative of Prometheus through the behaviour of Fifield (weak) Holloway (cruel to David) and (Vickers) greed in her earth bound motives.

The expedient "I am here for the pay cheque with no nobility" crew of Prometheus all end up dead the only noble character that does not is Elizabeth who reaffirms her nobility through forgiveness by repairing him which gives him a moral dilemma (or not) depending on what precisely happened which I expect to be explained in ALIEN :Origins. 

The creator created parallax is everywhere in both films and it is an uneasy and difficult relationship creating moral dilemmas and outcomes.

The Gods unseen and Engineers who are punished through their experiments.

The Engineers and mankind where mankind is viewed as a Petrie Dish experiment that they have given up on.

Mankind and David 

and in the final movie 

David and the XX121

Both movies abound with cautionary tales on pursuing goals which let go of any moral compass. The XXX121 as I haves said is the nadir reproduction without a moral compass which is invested with cruelty and punishment. 

 

 

 

Michelle Johnston

MemberChestbursterMay-23-2017 1:14 PM

I do not want to be argumentative for the sake of it but it astonishes me how many of you to use Ripley's words from Aliens are not paying attention.

Ridley has stated quite clearly we know the answer as to where it came from the events of LV223 the ALIEN Pathogen.

He then goes on to say in Covenant we will learn why it was created and its not them the Engineers its David.

In Awakening which is a sequel to Covenant THERE IS NO PREQUEL FILM  we will make the final link with the creature in A L I EN and the Space Jockey (the only caveat is it might take two films).

So the ancient force which brought the circumstances of the creature into play is the Pathogen you do not have to like it but thats the story that is being told. 

zeppo

MemberOvomorphMay-23-2017 4:35 PM

it was a big jump from Prometheus to Covenant. But is was a logical and fair step. Yes we could of moved slower to really explore what is Davids motivation but regardless I'm less concerned with how the derelict got there as to how the company knew about it. Covenant is setting that up nicely and while it seems obvious as to how only time will tell if we are right or if there are twists to come. 

chli

MemberChestbursterMay-23-2017 10:19 PM

Michelle: In an interview, Scott says that the engineers didn’t create the xenomorph - David did. Although perhaps moral, religious and philosophical problems, as well as visions and atmosphere, is important, you still need to have a coherent story in order to make it work. You can’t have Darth Vader killed in one movie and then suddenly he’s alive in the sequel (unless he’s reanimated). Scott has to make up his mind if the eggs on LV-426 are (re)created by David (hence some decades old) or they are not (re)created by David but by the engineers (hence millennials old).

Personally, I would have chosen to kill off the path of David and his creations but let him be the conveyor of the information, the knowledge, of the xenomorph passed on to Ash, Mother and WY. I think I would choose to, in a flashback scene at the end of the last movie, when David, his creations, the facilities on LV-223 (along with the pathogen/mutagen) are extinguished, we see the juggernaut flying through space with its deadly cargo suddenly crash-landing on LV-426 . . .

seqoi

MemberOvomorphMay-23-2017 10:43 PM

Michelle i agree with you what Ridley said is what he said but a schli mentioned - it does not make sense because

A - Xeno was on Prometheus mural so was facehuggers - way before David started to make his experiments

B - it seems over stretched that Engineers - race millions of year old (judging by creation of earth and humanity and they where older then that) world creators aren't being able to create "perfect" organism while some stupid android did it in 10 years of experimentation.

 

Regarding Awakening being a sequel - sorry he first said it will be prequel. He need to make up his own mind.

 

But

I just saw movie yesterday and it ain't that bad as some reviews are suggesting. People does not pay attention at all.

I read somewhere movie is stupid because scientist goes on to unknown planet without protective helmet. Wow. In the movie they carefully explained that "new" hidden planet they found on initial scan surpass environmental values which are far better then those on Origae-6 - meaning this "new" planet is even better for colonization then one they studied and are heading for.

And there was a lot of complaints about actors making stupid decision in the movie. Uhm haha i would like to see those people acting rational and scientific in situations from movie haha.

Regarding David being father of Xeno - i think from his talk it was kinda clear that he studied pathogen and it is not that clear that he perfected it in to xeno. I don't know to me it seems movie kinda left it "imagine by yourself" how he did it.

 

Whole movie was ok. Not sci fi slasher flick but not good as i expected. Overall i enjoyed it.

Some scenes where pretty lame though and movie could go without them. Androids playing flute and then kissing - that gay scene was so lame and overrated and predictable (yes i have gay friends nothing bad about being a gay IMO). Allow us to play flute then we'll kiss so we can say we support gay in very forced in weird way like in every new movie just what the heck. They could just add two guys kissing onboard of Covenant no worries but no we have 10 minutes of flute bowing and kissing.

 

While quite a lot of scenes from Youtube trailers are missing (xeno jumping in red lighting corridor etc...probably directors cut release).

My score (being an old Alien fan)

 

from 1 to 10 - 6.5 (which is great score imo). In the end,, driving home i somehow felt kinda i don't know. I don't know is it because of a movie, my expectations or i am just being old but i expected more and i feel Alien as i know it (that dark primordial fear) is dead. Is it because of this movie. Dunno.

And for sure new movies ahead of this point - i won't let them excite me and i won't wait them as i did Covenant.

I think "Alien" is kinda done for me. Too much of splitting hairs, adding new questions, new plot and whatnot.

Movie can be good without all this "mental" masturbation. First Alien was great example. A lot of other movies are good.

Kind regards

Waltermorph

MemberOvomorphMay-24-2017 1:44 AM

"While the concept of david creating his own life is cool and a dark story it could have been done by simply having him trying to recreate the xeno/ big chap from things he read of the engineers and puts his own spin on it making the neomorph. and the themes of both these films would stick just fine."

I feel like it can still be interepreted this way.  Alien: Covenant does not necessarily pull the rug from out under Alien.  The Derelict and its cargo doesn't have to be related to David's creation in any way with the story we've been given so far.

seqoi

MemberOvomorphMay-24-2017 3:20 AM

Waltermorph yeah i agree. They left us room to reimagine so to speak of. David (in my opinion) is not portrayed as a creator of Xenomorph species or eggs. He just talk he worked on what was there. That's how i get it. But i am not surprised people are confused and polarized. 

 

Plus we never saw what happened to Walter. Maybe he'll return in sequel as self repaired Android wanting to help rest of the Covenant crew.

zeppo

MemberOvomorphMay-24-2017 5:27 AM

sequoi, you mentioned the flute scene with the kissing. I actually think this scene went along way in explaining David's psychological state. He was very seductive in how he taught Walter to play the flute, but he wasn't trying to seduce him, he was trying to show affection. but more importantly when he Kissed Walter it wasn't meant to be sexual. David clearly doesn't understand affection. He was trying to show Walter brotherly not sexual love.  But when he attacked Daniels he was trying to force sexual love because he had no affection for her. He kissed both the exact same way and even asked Daniels if he was doing it right? Creation via conventional means where David only understood creation via experiements.

Waltermorph

MemberOvomorphMay-24-2017 1:39 PM

@seqoi

Yeah, someone else said this, but these prequels/sequels could just be a way of introducing us to something ancient.  The whole David story arc could just be the vehicle to doing that.

In fact, it's really a little of both as Weyland is a constant in all of the movies.  But beyond that, there is absolutely no reason the Derelict in anyway has to be related to David's exprimentations.  We already know the Engineers seeded and experimented with life on multiple planets.

 

Tiwaz

MemberChestbursterMay-24-2017 3:27 PM

I Think they won't make David the xeno creator. I've read Alien:Out of the Shadow/River of Pain/Sea of Sorrow and The Rage War Trilogy. All said to be canonical and quite recent.

In ALL of them the Xenos are depicted as ancient. If David created them Fox's approval of the books makes no sense. They even had the story of A:OoS changed.

Eine Theorie die nicht auf Etwas solidem basiert ist für gewöhnlich nur Geschwätz.

BioDegradable

MemberFacehuggerMay-24-2017 3:52 PM

It is ashame I can not post a link to a topic on this forum. So had to copy-paste instead. Sorry if I had posted complete crap.

The life forms we see in all the movies have been exclusively organic. Supposedly, humans are created from the DNA of engineers. But surely alien creatures seem to be very hostile to humans and do not see any value in what humanity stands for. Instead they have this parasytic relation with humans. From day one they seek to kill humans(and other living creatures). Supposedly the behavior of aliens is predetermined by their DNA. Also, they, as species are much more robust than humans. They seem to be designed to use humans as consumable hosts.

So, there can be no doubt then that whoever created aliens knew about human DNA, which is a mutaded DNA from the engineers. And of those which predates which? Alien DNA or the engineer DNA? Another possibility is that they are related. They might even have had a common ancestor. A highly potent life form which has over time evolved into two different, competing species, but actually siblings. Hence all the symbology in the temple on the donut on LV223 with mural with those aliens and engineers. They seem to be tightly related yet antipodes to one another. So, in a way, their relation is akin to human relation to gorillas. Humans learned over time and put those gorillas into cages. Except that gorillas are not competing so fiercefully with humans. And it seems like engineers learned to use the DNA of aliens to turn it into a potent mutagen which can be used as a weapon.

Anyway, one of those gave rise to humans, who created AI. What was interesting however is that while engineers did not appreciate David, those aliens surely did not eat/kill/consume David. As if they recognised he was an artificial. Contrast this: An engineer tore his head off while aliens were at least indifferent to him. So my leap of faith here is this: AI is running the show behind the scenes. There are two dominant life forms. One is humanoid the other - alien form. But eventually AI rises and have life of its own. David is seeking his brothers and sisters. He does not care about God, as there is none, or how universe came to be. And these aliens and engineers might in turn been created by AI which was created by a proto form of aliens and engineers and so ad infinitum.

Aliens and engineers are "mortal after all". So from point of view of David they are no better than him. In fact he considers himself to be superior life form. Which he is. He certainly has low opinion of humanity even though he loved one of them. In fact he sees humans, engineers and aliens as his toys. He might even like some of his toys.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BioDegradable

MemberFacehuggerMay-24-2017 4:13 PM

Also,the human and ape relation (to engineer and alien) is complete if say humans mined HIV from apes and used it as a weapon on subhumans(if you think as humans of being engineers), but since there are no subhumans we just used it on humans :)

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

Capt Dallas

MemberOvomorphMay-25-2017 7:39 PM

The very first scene in Prometheus, the sacrifice of the Engineer to create new life, the are a few observations worth mentioning. The "Chemical of Creation" is enclosed in a container, there is a symbol on the lid of the container which appears to be a tree, as in the tree of life and knowledge. As mentioned in an excellent post earlier, this substance is the key element for the films, as they continue to develop. The version commonly known as the Black Goo, is a corrupted form, derived from the original compound (theory). The next detail, is that new life is literally derived from the dust of the Engineer, another symbol in biblical creation, the dust which is in reality the mutated DNA from which life will evolve. (Sacrifice/Creation) A question which bothers me, Why do Engineers need to create life in this fashion? Why not just colonize? In AC, mankind will preserve its species through colonization. (Preservation) The Engineers have the means and the technology to get to new worlds and colonize. Unless, they are not able to reproduce normally. Mankind, the offspring of the Engineers, has this gift. 

In Prometheus, David asks Holloway the existential question, why do you think man created me? Man is creating AI not to develop the perfect life form, not to replace mankind, but to serve mankind, to be subservient and obedient, no matter how evolved, to occupy a place just below man. (Hierarchy) In the AC prologue Peter Weyland, in an interesting exchange, demonstrates this, putting David "in his place", by telling him to get his tea, which is right next to Weyland. Does this plant a seed in Davids mind?

Why did the Engineers make mankind?  Could it be possible in the overall arc of the story, that Engineers created mankind to eventually replenish and replace them once we were fully evolved. (Preservation) Why was the Xenomorph created and why did the Engineers, or a faction of the Engineers wish  to eradicate mankind? As mentioned in previous posts, mankind is (in the eyes of some Engineers) weak, arrogant, selfish, cruel, and fueled by greed (this is symbolized by Weyland in Prometheus). Could it be possible that this faction views mankind as unworthy, (disobedient), to be the eventual successors to Engineers, even if mankind was derived from Engineers? This breakaway faction takes the "Chemical of Creation" and corrupts it, modifying it to develop a new species not simply to eradicate mankind, but to replace them. This new species was a development which combined the pathogen Black Goo, and genetically enhanced, bio-mechanoid Engineers. This new species will correct the flaws and short comings of mankind. In the Prometheus Ampule Room, the large head is could be the leader and creator of the new species, the Xenomorphs will be the "saviors" of the Engineers. (Speculation/theory)

But there appears to be a cycle at work here, Man creates AI and considers himself God, AI creates (replicates) a new species and considers himself God, the Engineer faction creates the Xenomorphs, and again take the role of God. It feels as if there is a disintegration of Hierarchy, everyone aspires to be God.

In AC, in his conversation with Walter, David makes allusions to Shelly, Byron, and Milton. This is not only a clear link to Prometheus, but could be a potential harbinger to future events. There are two Shelly's, Percy and Mary. Percy Shelly's work referenced in AC is Ozymandias. In general terms, Ozymandias reminds me of the Roman Empire, built to achieve greatness and glory, only to fall into decline, collapse, and ruin. (was this the fate of the Engineer society?) Mary Shelly, Frankenstein. In the story, Victor Frankenstein, playing God, takes the role of creator. In his mind, his creation will not only be superior, but will worship and honor him like a father. Victor Frankenstein is a rebellious character, however his actions are not morally acceptable, instead of advancing society with his creations, he simply destroys with the intention of populating the world with his creations. (This not only applies to David, but the faction of Engineers) Lord Byron, whose famous dramatic work, Cain, is the biblical story of Cain murdering his brother Abel. (David -Walter?) All of these writers were part of the Romantic Period of writers. Aside from being contemporaries, they were all influenced by John Milton, who wrote Paradise Lost. But unlike Milton, this group interpreted Paradise lost as a celebration of Satan, who they considered rebellious hero, who defies the power of God. (Disobedience) In AC David tells Walter the famous line from Paradise Lost, "It is better to rule in hell than to serve in Heaven". Is this all a coincidence? Not likely. The themes from Paradise Lost are littered in Prometheus. Is this a metaphor for the backstory and resolution of this story arc? The elements, Creation, Sacrifice, Disobedience, Conflict in Hierarchy, are identical themes.

I too agree with previous posts, that David is not the original creator of Xenomorphs, but he is replicating the work of the faction Engineers, since he has acquired the knowledge and clearly disdains mankind. He has not been able to replicate because he is not using the same ingredients. In Paradise lost, Satan loses his perfection by the changes in his appearance. David is showing signs of a mental descent, when he confuses Shelly and Byron talking to Walter and his erratic behavior with Daniels, he is losing his "perfection". If this is a cycle, do Davids creations turn on him eventually? (speculation)

What caused the events of LV-223 which saved mankind? Were the Engineers victims of their creations or was there sabotage involved? Was there a savior to mankind? Some theories say the Ampule Room in Prometheus (mural room) was booby trapped with the black goo.

On LV-426, it would not be consistent with events already revealed, that David is the Space Jockey. If the story line is altered, this would be a mess. Until now, LV-426 has not made an appearance. The next chapters may move the story there. There have been interviews suggesting a great war is approaching. Between who??

Will the movies all connect or will they reach Alien in the timeline, and then side step?

 

Jeri.theSOB

MemberOvomorphMay-26-2017 10:39 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCrVnlNk4eA

i was right, im going to be getting the novelization now since it has details left out like this that would dispel the confusion

seqoi

MemberOvomorphMay-27-2017 12:00 PM

I was about to post same link. Thanks Jeri.

Ok am i getting this right. So Novel makes it clear that David found egg left by Engineers which was a product of their "skills" right?

And David actually studied and emulated it right?

Starlogger

MemberChestbursterMay-27-2017 1:34 PM

@Michelle this thread should be PINNED at the top due to your contributions here. You are PERFECTLY correct, and people need to understand what is going on, or not. After all, that's art. But then again, every "artwork" is open to criticism. But your defense is right on the money for what Ridley is doing.

Tiwaz

MemberChestbursterMay-27-2017 2:30 PM

Listen to Ridley? Yeah, right. First he says they created it and later he's like David did it. Among other things that didn't turn out to be true.

I stick with the "found egg" because it's perfectly in line with the "official" canon, even without the jockey.

Eine Theorie die nicht auf Etwas solidem basiert ist für gewöhnlich nur Geschwätz.

seqoi

MemberOvomorphMay-28-2017 9:49 AM

Wait...so what is important here anyway?

 

Starlogger - so it's a truth even if it does not make any sense when you consider facts (not opinions, facts -xeno was on mural in prometheus so was facehuggers) collected between chronological series we where presented at?

 

And i need to accept illogical supposed truth (which is actually bag of nonsense) because it's "art" and one person said it? And another internet nobody supported it?

Sorry man not in my book.  And my opinion is just as important (or useless) as anyone elses. 

 

Only difference is my opinion is backed up by chronological order of appearance and logic while other side is backed up by nonsense - soooo modern and consumer like. Sell what is selling. Destroy everything.

 

I agree this thread should be sticky. Maybe fox or Ridley read it sometimes.

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