Tiago_miami_laFacehuggerMember236 XPDec-30-2016 6:10 PM
Prometheus gave us very strong directions.
The black goo is used as a weapon to wipe us out..they destroy other life forms to build again..they wanted to wipe us out because their paradise went bad and earth is the environment they seek for them to start again.hence why in covenant they dont use helmets.
They made a weapon they coudnt control. So i really think we need some answers from where they collected the goo from..or how they made it..and what happened to paradise.
They need to tie some stuff.the ship in alien regards to time. The eggs that it had.and the space jockey death.
I have a hard time to believe that the eggs are something the enginners had knowledge..the egg as we know spawns a biomech xeno...so how come the ship in alien 1 is before the events of covenant and etc.it cant be.
Shasta cycloneFacehuggerMember281 XPDec-30-2016 7:15 PM
It's more detail than that .....and the story is still being told...
if you're basing your opinion on Prometheus ( the movie) alone you have a lot to catch up on.
CalpamosOvomorphMember9 XPDec-30-2016 7:46 PM
I am happy to hear he is keeping the constructs he set forth in Prometheus
David 7FacehuggerMember488 XPDec-30-2016 7:49 PM
We will get some answers in covenant but not all. There are two more films after this and all of the major questions will be answered in the latter films.
BigDaveDeaconMember10416 XPDec-30-2016 9:28 PM
This combined with Wayne Haags interview gives me great enthusiasm for the movie..... Unlike that 4chan leak ;) Boy that would be a Cop out... thankfully its not accurate ;)
Seems they are still hoping to touch upon themes that the Source i had leaked to me in February 2015 way before Ridley Scot even mentioned the stuff like this.....
I dont know if they was telling the truth... but well the movie has been re-done by Logan and even if the Source was just made up by some one... its interesting the themes and things they mentioned are somewhat being followed here.
I find Ridleys interview a great comfort now... i just wonder if the spoon Fed Xeno marketing will hook Alien fans in and then give them a taste that there is something to salvage from Prometheus..
i think some will leave the movie thinking... WTF did that have to do with Alien..... oh well we get those people... some moaned that Rogue One had no Luke and Solo lol
BigDaveDeaconMember10416 XPDec-30-2016 9:39 PM
its a nice tale Chris ;)
I cant find my P2 draft i did, i can remember a lot of what i was doing though.... i had it worked out... but some aspects (scenes) i had like alternative ones because like a Fork in the Road i just could not do them justice or they would not fit with my other parts... so i abandoned it lol
But indeed i had a David Flashback that discussed those themes in this Topic...
My draft was pointing to Weylands comparison of him creating Life and Life thats Immortal.... well David can transfer his Soul which is his experiences and memories to other Davids... David is just a Computer after all....
And Weyland in my draft talked about how Mankind are Biological Machines.. and to think with ones Heart is Foolish, and that the brain is key and that thoughts dont come from the heart.. but they feel like they do and this is why WE have a Soul and David does not..
Weyland's aim was to advance Synthetics.. to then find out how indeed OUR DREAMS and OUR MEMORIES are stored in a Bio-logical Circulatory of a brain..
Weylands Aim.... once he can find out how the brain stores our Memories and Experiences... then we can find a means to back them up.... THEN MANKIND is Immortal... yes its been done in the 6th Day movie lol
But i felt this was Weylands Agenda... and it was one part of what i was working on...
Its even a idea i had from day one.... when the Prometheus trailers came out and we saw David reading Dreams..
I thought maybe David upgrades himself with something of the Engineers to become more than Synthetic... and then Weyland would transfer his Memories and Thoughts to David.
But alas... that never happened..
But i feel this was Weylands Ultimate Ambition... but he could not Perfect it... play God all he wants... he can transfer Davids SOUL... over to Model after Model (which i think is what has happened) but Weyland could never figure out how to obtain this with the Human Brain... every attempt Failed.
maybe our Dreams and Memories and Experiences do come from the Heart... maybe we have a Soul.... this is why.. and also means its something Weyland Cant replicate...
Which is why when he got wind of Shaws findings... Weylands was now getting Old... he was giving up on his dream to transfer a Human Soul.....
Now he thought he had a chance to meet the Gods who made us and surely they could grant Weyland that wish..
Cil9mxmOvomorphMember12 XPDec-30-2016 9:39 PM
Scott had once upon a time explained, “NASA and the Vatican agree that is almost mathematically impossible that we can be where we are today without there being a little help along the way . . . That’s what we’re looking at in these films - at some of Eric van Daniken’s ideas of how did humans come about.”
Von Daniken is known for his books 'Chariots of the Gods' and 'Gods From Outer Space', which deliver his “ancient astronaut” theory — an idea that suggests extraterrestrials were in contact with ancient civilizations on Earth, and may perhaps be responsible for starting the first civilizations on Earth.
Prometheus and now Alien: Covenant posits that life on Earth was sparked by an advanced race of aliens, and that evidence of their intervention can be found in ancient artifacts and cave paintings if we know where to look. Ridley Scott has himself admitted that Chariots Of The Gods was a key inspiration for Prometheus/Alien: Covenant concept.
The term juggernaut itself refers to the the Alien derelict ship we see in Alien, Prometheus, and soon Alien: Covenant, in turn comes from the huge "Chariot" that the God Krishna road to the town of Puri, drawn annually in procession in which (apocryphally) devotees allowed themselves to be crushed under its wheels in sacrifice to their god.
Ridley himself believes we were created from a higher power and/or perhaps helped along the evolutionary way by ancient aliens. The prequels to Alien; 'Prometheus' and now 'Alien: Covenant' further explore this idea. Further movie fiction revealing that these ancient 'Engineers' experimented with gene altering DNA to exterminate their Homo sapiens created on earth in retaliation for us killing their emissary, Jesus.
BigDaveDeaconMember10416 XPDec-30-2016 9:53 PM
My draft also had a Shaw Dream.... David awoke from his... you got his POV he gets off the Engineer Chair (i was going the route the Pilot Chair is not needed apart from to target for weapons and maybe landing).
He takes the Flute and Played Stranger in Paradise
then began to sing it as he looked over Shaws Cryo-Pod and Places his hand on it.... as David sings his last line
" I hang suspended, Until I know there's a chance that you care"
We then go to Shaw having a Flash Back dream... shes at the Funeral of her Nan... Ellen Shaw.... the scene starts as it morphs from Shaws Cryo-Pod view to a Coffin with a See-through Top Half... (Sigorney Weaver is there dead) we then got to see Shaw and her Cousin Catherine who is pregnant and they chat about Nanna... and Shaw talks about if Catherine has a name for the Baby.... she says Scot (thats her partner) likes Alice but i think i will name her after Grandma....
They talk about how Scott will not be back in time for the birth as he is called away for longer duty with the Marines for a extra 9 months...
They then talk about how Catherine will start her new life, and wait for him to come back and be married... and how Nannas home is hers.... and she asks Shaw what she will do with her Money Nanna Ellen has left..
Shaw says she will put it to making a Presentation of her findings in the hope someone will back her up to explore them...
We see the Coffin go into the Cremation Flames... where we see the name Ellen Shaw....
We then hear a Woman calling Elizabeth, Elizabeth...
Shaws POV she sees her Nanna Calling... through the otherside of the Glass.... (Sigourney Weaver) Elizabeth, Elizabeth... goes out of focus... then voice changes to David's
Elizabeth, Elizabeth.... it was David... she awakes and sits up... (she is in Engineer Suit lol)
David says ... we have arrived....
BigDaveDeaconMember10416 XPDec-30-2016 9:56 PM
Indeed... i think they was going to a good plot but bold, maybe backed themselves into a Corner.... as a stand alone movie.. its a good idea... but to tie into Alien was a tricky one...
I am glad they are not abandoning all these themes for AC
AortaFacehuggerMember316 XPDec-30-2016 10:17 PM
Can I just say that Waterston is very good at looking scared s**tless?
Such exciting stuff. I too am comforted to hear Ridley sticking to his guns, weaving these massive concepts into what I'm sure will be on the surface another homage to Classic Sci fi. This is what made Prometheus a banquet of ideas and images, fun, freaky and mind boggling.
I'm ever so thankful that a great artist would weave such depth into an Alien movie, rather than take the easy route. This will be fun on any level you choose to examine it in. Naysayers take note: No cash grab here. Talk to Neill.
Michelle JohnstonChestbursterMember763 XPDec-30-2016 11:40 PM
Thank you Chris this is the kind of intel that for me is really worth considering "What is in the mind of the artist". it is right at the end of the year of fascinating debates, the perfect ending.
"So we now know who created this, and why, and the next one's a joining up of the storyline. It touches on mortality, immortality and the real question of who created us and why."
This maybe a very important statement about Covenants role. Benjamin Rigby indicated in the spring that Covenant is the connection between Prometheus and Alien. Is Ridley talking to Digital Spy about a film after Covenant or Covenant itself.It would be odd to talk to a media outlet about the themes of the next one before this one has even be released. Certainly their strap line suggests they believe he is talking about Covenant. It is also notable that Ridley uses the word layering a phrase he used to describe the explanation of the relative place of the Engineers with in the hierarchy. The multi layering also indicates that the film works on several levels and not just the one on offer in the trailer which appears to be "The marketing of fear'
The overall tone of the remarks give most encouragement to those of us who are looking for the speculative nature of Prometheus to continue, asking the biggest questions.
That Ridley has offered these remarks and offered a trailer, which I know from remarks reveals a good deal of the Life Cycle and its progenitor evolution, suggests we are going to get the movie I was hoping for. The life cycle is not THE story it is merely there to aid the story, it is the result not the reason.
I have referred recently to Ridleys potential motivations, the death of his brother and his age, those combined with his vast experience of film making and his sense of ownership of the Alien Universe make these sequence of films ideally suited to placing highly thought provoking ideas into that mix completely understandable.
There are different ways to interpret these key statements but my view that Covenant maybe the link movie in both directions has increased just a little more. As I said elsewhere all the elements to make it so are in place and that is some thing I do not want the answer to before I sit down for my first viewing so I really must make my first new years resolution to "stay dark".
Happy New Year one and all.
BigDaveDeaconMember10416 XPDec-31-2016 12:20 AM
LOL indeed... staying dark could be good idea....
I will be busy analyze all the details we get lol. think i would have movie sussed before it comes out...
But indeed i think Ridley knows where they are going now, and it would not surprise me if work for Part 2 of his new Trilogy is underway..
So maybe there would not be as big wait between this movie and the next.... i find it funny Ridley Scott announced Alien: Paradise Lost and dropped some information..
Then weeks latter we had Alien: Covenant and a change in Synopsis....
with Titan Books bringing out AC book and its sequel in near future... i would not be surprised we dont see the next installment sooner rather than latter.
i.e Alien: Covenant May 2017 then Alien:Paradise Lost for May 2019
ido lamOvomorphMember25 XPDec-31-2016 1:38 AM
What happens xenomorf drink the black stuff?
smallfishOvomorphMember23 XPDec-31-2016 4:05 AM
Oh Dear, Did no one tell Ridley that natural selection is the exact opposite of chance?
AortaFacehuggerMember316 XPDec-31-2016 5:46 AM
Happy New Year Michelle, look forward to hearing from you in May! And Happy New Year to you all!
Shasta cycloneFacehuggerMember281 XPDec-31-2016 6:28 AM
I get mixed up about the whole trilogy thing.... I've read many articles with the trilogy starting with Prometheus and AC will be the second installment but on here and I've also read... the trilogy starts with AC.
AortaFacehuggerMember316 XPDec-31-2016 11:23 AM
If it is indeed to be a trilogy, I've no doubt arrangements have already been made if Ridley couldn't participate.
I read recently that he was in talks to do a film adaptation of The Prisoner, I'm personally hoping he has all this in him because I want to see that, too!
BigDaveDeaconMember10416 XPDec-31-2016 12:27 PM
I will assume they had a Plan A-C with P2 draft and a P3, but seeing that seemed Fans was more interested in A5 they had then re-wrote P2 to become AC and bring in the Xeno a bit more... bypassing what ever main events and themes P2 touched upon... giving us a aftermath if you would and so its like as i said before,... seeing fans disappointed with Phantom Menace they then decided to go with Revenge of the Sith to give them the Vader and Storm Troopers and then hope this movie then gets the fans now pleased, to ask how did that Boy evolve to become Vader and then drop in Attack of the Clones after as the 3rd prequel thats actually set between the first two.
I think this is what the Term.. coming in from the Read End and back door means..
AC will give some Xeno clues... it will give the fans Aliens running around... we will get some clues to the Engineers Agenda but not in great detail....
The next movie.. maybe Alien: Paradise Lost will cover these themes more and answer questions left by AC and Prometheus which include what happened in the 10 years prior to AC and also in the past... And tease the Xeno has a different Origin..
I think AC and PL will then give ambiguous clues so fans cant 100% be certain which events... Prometheus ==>AC ==> Alien or Prior to Prometheus.... will lead to the Space Jockey etc.
This will be roughly the TWO movie Plot they wanted to do... with the door open for the 3rd movie to then GIVE the answers and showcase the Space Jockey event.. in a way that Fox can maybe gauge which route to go by the Feedback from AC and PL..
BigDaveDeaconMember10416 XPDec-31-2016 12:36 PM
If we look at the themes of Morality and Immortality... it could tease that we may find more about Engineer Culture... which Wayne Haag teased too.. which is totally excluded from the 4chan leak that the IMDB one now backs up.... which both contradict Ridleys and Haags interviews and some of the clues we are shown.
But maybe the Multi Layered Tale about Mortality and Immortality is mainly covered by the Prologue between Weyland and David...
Mankind is Mortal we dont know where we go when we die...
David is Immortal to a degree.. he can be killed, but provided his Brain/Memories are intact he can live on... but if he is totally destroyed then there is NOTHING.. as far as after life.
I think it would do (as my P2 draft was going to between David and Weyland) touch upon how Mankinds Memories, Emotions sometimes come from the Heart... and not our Brain (although Technically its only stored in the Brain) this is what gives us a SOUL...
Davids memories and experiences are stored in a series of Microprocessors and Storage.. and these are his SOUL in a way and his SOUL can be passed on and Life on in a New Body... this would be a undisputed FACT.
Where as Mankinds... its all to do with Faith as far as what is after the END...
The Engineers are Mortal... similar to Humans only they most likely are able to live for a long long time.... but ultimately can be killed and when they die... they are Gone and there is NOTHING... they can not be Salvaged as far as their Memories and experiences (SOUL) that can be passed onto a New Body ... unlike David..
The big question is what being/force or power is above the Engineers are are they more like David/Machine or are they more Mortal Flesh and Blood like Engineers/Mankind.
CalpamosOvomorphMember9 XPDec-31-2016 1:32 PM
See, it's these big ideas that invite speculation and debate that has expanded the alien universe into more than mere horror that has me excited. I like that he's bringing back some horror, but also that the symbolism, mystery, and existential questions are still moving the plot forward. Exciting times!
BigDaveDeaconMember10416 XPDec-31-2016 6:08 PM
i really hope so
DizFacehuggerMember127 XPJan-01-2017 3:10 PM
I love Scott's approach. Prometheus was so much more than a rubber suit with a penis head, to para-quote MJ. The questions of our origins and possibly even our future is so much more fascinating than just a gory sci-fi/horror flick.
Perhaps because I too am an old grey beard, I contemplate these issues and want to see them explored, versus just the visceral thrills n chills of a creature feature.
And I totally agree with his conclusions. Someone or something made us; this isn't just random chance, or even natural selection. We were created. There's probably a better chance of a F-35 just randomly creating itself, than our human form being a total freakin accident of chance and nature. At least that is my and Sir Ridley's opinion.
Whether by gods or engineers, it would be fascinating to meet our makers.
Stan Winston (deceased)FacehuggerMember173 XPJan-01-2017 8:02 PM
I am in perhaps the minority who think Ridley Scott should not advertise his religious persuasions in an allegorical movie, lest we get another Battlefield: Earth!
Furthermore, why bend, twist, augment and alter the Alien Universe, in order to make some commentary on the miracle of human life? Why is that integral to the Alien story? My point being one could take all these themes and dump them in prequels for -- I don't know -- say, E.T.: The Extraterrestrial; or better yet, just make it all standalone (which was what Prometheus was meant to be) -- but just keep it far away from Alien.
I mean if you want to make a movie about big themes, e.g. the rise of post-truism, then you go make a standalone film(s) about... the rise of post-truism. What you don't do is hijack an existing film/franchise, e.g. Fast & Furious, and engineer (pun intended) the big theme to be a causal factor depicted in some prequel, e.g. the rise of post-truism resulted in many young people preferring to drive suped-up cars.
And now he wants to also talk about "mortality and immortality". Give me strength. I don't know how he has so much control over Alien, it wasn't his creation alone -- he contributed no greater than O'Bannon, Shussett, Giler, Hill, and Giger.
Calm down Ridley, and try to remember that the origin of the Alien and Space Jockey is what you need to focus on.
BigDaveDeaconMember10416 XPJan-01-2017 8:46 PM
Its one of 5 main theories of creation... common THREE is Divine Creation by Godlike beings or Natural Evolution.
Then you have the Panspermia theory where Life came about from somewhere else via a Comet or Asteroid bringing the building blocks of Life to Earth.
Other TWO being the Gods are actually Ancient Humanoid Aliens.. And lastly that its all some kind of Matrix lol
Prometheus went the route of Ancient Gods with the Panspermia twist
AortaFacehuggerMember316 XPJan-02-2017 9:09 AM
I definitely don't see us getting another Battlefield Earth, here. Prometheus was rich in the same concepts or similar and they didn't derail the story, the majority of it was subtext and visual cues and quite deftly done at that.
Mortality has always been a feature of the Alien stories, the key selling point, arguably. Death is scary. So is immortality, if you think about it., especially in the context of the Alien universe.
Scott is free to do as he likes and we'll either be happy with the outcome or not. The only thing he owes anybody is a saleable film, to Fox. That said, I think it's pretty much a given he's going to try his best to provide us with a satisfying movie, on both a visceral and intellectual level. I think the trailer makes it obvious that the philosophical elements will be woven in, not a centerpiece.
While Ridley didn't write Alien he was certainly key to ensuring Alien became Alien, more so than even Schusett and O'bannon, who felt among other things that the MORB should behave like a complete savage but eventually mature into a cultured being.
Again, it's just a movie! When all is said and done I'd personally rather see it in the hands of someone who's gonna try to make it fascinating than someone who wants to resurrect Hicks lol.
BigDaveDeaconMember10416 XPJan-02-2017 3:23 PM
I think they are pushing this out in part to please Alien fans who wanted to see Alien 5 and disappointed at the Xeno answers and direction of Prometheus and in part it would be pushed at trying to cover Prometheus themes and Questions for those fans who was interested in where this was going... which is what Ridley was trying to do....
Spaights draft was aimed at very similar to Prometheus.. but to give more on the nose Xeno connections.... no doubt if they went with his draft instead and toned it down a bit (but not as much as Prometheus) or left it as it was... then they did a sequel to Spaights draft... i think that seqeul would have then furthered away from Alien and covered the Engineers more..
it was a Tease the Xeno... open up a reason for their creation and who there creators was and bring Mankind into it.. so all of these MINUS the XENOMORPH can then be covered in the next movie.
Prometheus neglected the sufficient Xenomorph clues and links, i think they left it open so that a sequel could go the Engineer route but then tease the Xeno answers a bit more depending on the reaction..
The reaction was not good as far as Fans in general, and FOX saw that a lot of interest was happening with Blomkamps Alien 5..
So it seems they have decided they need to bring in the Xenomorph connections a bit more..
i think a lot is a Red Herring to lead to a Ambiguous Ending..
Prometheus left us thinking about this as far as the Xenomorph.
*We was shown the LV-223 outpost and Black Goo plaid a part, the Mural and Frescos showed a connection... but it was never Spoon fed and so open to debate.
Left us to ponder... the way it was teased..
*Does the Deacon lead to the Xenomorph?
*Does those Hammerpedes lead to the Xenomorph?
*Could similar to those events had happened in the past?
*Was something else created from the Black Goo that becomes the Xenomorph? In the Past..
*Does the Xenomorph come from what ever David does when they get to Paradise?
*Do they discover something already on Paradise that is linked to the Xenomorph?
*Did the Black Goo come from some Organism related to the Xenomorph thats Ancient or the Xenomorph is the Origin.
THATS HOW PROMETHEUS LEFT THE CLUES
Seems Alien Covenant is going to touch upon the last 3 Points
But expect the Clues to be a bit ambiguous so at the end of AC... we are driven towards a answer that includes those Last 3 Points...
Without showing us which of them it would.. be... so each Plot Device and Clue regarding the Xeno and Black Goo would leave us no clearer answer than trying to think does the Hammerpedes, Deacon or other Black Goo interaction lead to the Xeno..
This is the approach i feel they are doing..... WHY?
So they can then gauge the reaction...
Fans will no doubt comment on things like... say
"oh i really thought Walter would be the Xeno" or "cant believe that cliff-hanger would it come from David and Walter"
"i think the Engineers behind the Xeno is plain stupid.. the Space Jockey was Alien and connected not the Engineers"
"i like how the Engineers may have played a part in the Xeno... i wish they cover it more..."
And comments like this would allow FOX to then maybe Run with one of these, which ever they feel was the more interesting and would thus put more Bums on Seats for EP3
BigDaveDeaconMember10416 XPJan-02-2017 3:26 PM
I know that was long a read for those who have lol
My point being it seems its a movie to try and please both those wanted a Prometheus 2 and those who wanted a Alien 5 or a more Spaights Alien prequel.
The Movie could be a HIT and please Both Sides of the Fence... or it could be a Miss and disappoint Both Sides of the Fence... or one Side will be happy and the other disappointed..
But Regardless... i think they would then Gauge the reaction to see what to do next..
But maybe a majority of the sequel is already planned out... this can be changed due to reaction.... which is why i feel P2 become AC.... also i think in Part something Blomkamp was going to do with the Derelict.
Michelle JohnstonChestbursterMember763 XPJan-02-2017 5:22 PM
A post script as my thoughts on this thread were incomplete.
BD and others know I started a blog to more fully realise my view about Prometheus and the set up for Covenant.
I began writing an additional section based on the remarks made by Ridley and out hiking today I began to think of the consequences of two elements of the films, one certain one possible, which will have a great deal of impact on the centre of gravity of these stories which was what we are really discussing here.
It covers Stan Winston point which, having read the equivalent thread on AVP Galaxy, it is fair to say is the prevailing view. The view is that the monster and at its broadest its relationship with the Jockey is the only expansion at all that people are looking for and indeed what is going on is seen as a distraction and or dilution of their view of the Alien. The broadening and creation of the mythos and the introduction of other elements of Xeno like outcomes are seen as part of this dilution. I actually joined for one post to get them to think, not about my view, but whether essentially that kind of monster centric fan is really on a different course to Ridley.
I am posting on this issue because I am convinced this view of the difference between what Ridley is doing and what some of the fanbase want is at odds. The key extract which underlines what is happening to the unfolding story is lifted from my blog.
"If David has brought hell with him from LV 223 and is responsible for the deaths of the Engineers then he has indeed grown. This has two story telling consequences :-
i) It raises David's status within the story and confirms he is pre eminent and much more so than the "Life Cycle" which is also placed in context by the other consequence of the Engineer deaths, the impact of the mutagen.
ii) The mutagen responsible for the Engineers death is responsible for all the Zeno outcomes. The pre imminence of the mutagen is shown by splaying its effects across a number of outcomes rather than focusing on the one narrow life cycle shown in A L I EN. This again has an important impact on the emblematic, narrative and philosophical importance of the life cycle it becomes simply one of several outcomes, maybe a perfected bio mechanoid one, which emerged out of the experiments began on LV 223. It therefore sits next to other outcomes rather than being the single unique one now.
That David is now all powerful gives logic to the idea that he created X121 and makes sense of Ridleys remarks that the Deacon is a fore runner.
if this conjecture is right then David's story which comes out of his "fathers" attempt for immortality, which as a robot he in a sense has achieved, becomes the core story telling driver. In the future for us to learn something new in a further film can only come from the A L I EN surviving and David recognising at last that for more ascension he needs to control his curiosity so he becomes part of the natural order of things. He cannot, in the imagined world, as these films are prequels, be greater than the destroyer of the Engineers on Paradise and for his story to move on, rather than repeat itself is he recognises he must exercise more discretion which puts him at odds with W-Y determination once recognised to go after the "Bio weapon". Daniels maybe tempted by the terra forming knowledge she learns about but in the end, possibly being a parent, she begins to see things differently and help David to do so but for the time being the events of Covenant may have got out of hand".
It is easy to see that the final outcome of David in these prequels as he doesn't appear in the later films is to gain sentience a conscience and offer himself sacrificially.
My simple point is this Covenant will high light the importance of the mutagen and David's journey whereas the Zeno will merely be a box ticked. The "why the zeno" will give it context as a bio mechanical outcome of the mutagen but by telling this story and "clearing up" the origin of the zeno other than an irritating adversary the beast is contained catalogued and a known and quantifiable antagonist of several resulting from the mutagen. The e bola like mutagen maybe punishment from the hierarchy or a booby trap buts its the mutagen that drives the story and possibly in future the hierarchy, not the Zeno.
I appreciate there are those that believe the Xeno is some all powerful unique creature which sits beyond all of this but given we know there is a hierarchy to the coming stories and Ridley believes there is a creator and the eggs on the derelict were a bio mechanical weapon I do not see the zeno being a deified ancient part of creation that is held and occasionally breaks lose. Much more likely for me is the kind of allegory used in Paradise Lost where Sin and Death (states of mind and cir***stance) are portrayed as characters. The Zeno might represent some thing a strain of the fall but it isn't a primordial fallen God or an Angel.
On AVP there are a number of posts like Stan Winston's and if you are not interested in David's journey and the sub created mythos I think you maybe in for a disappointment. One reason I believe this analysis is right is because of the trailer. How much dialogue is there, how much does it talk about David and the mythos and how much did it hint at nasty outcomes of mutagenised creatures ? I do not have to see the trailer to know the latter has been offered and not much else the much more interesting elements are in the rest of the 100 + minutes. I suspect even the additional 15 minutes is more action/gore expose given the feedback.
Finally why was Spaits/Lindelof and the writers in general correct to take the big picture creation story on. Very simple, the life cycle is about amoral reproduction with deeply unsympathetic collateral implications for its hosts and targets, and operates with out conscience or love or consensus. If we are not going to see endless movies of gratuitous hideous violence with no other point other than to perfect its presentation using modern technology it was crucial to ask the questions Ridley is asking. The Zeno is about amoral creationism, to link that to a much broader look at creation seems entirely logical to me and fascinating.
SpaceGhost71OvomorphMember29 XPJan-02-2017 5:44 PM
"So we now know who created this, and why, and the next one's a joining up of the storyline. It touches on mortality, immortality and the real question of who created us and why."
Ummm ok, we now know who and why? Based on the cryptic movie Prometheus we perhaps have a general idea that these so called "Engineers" are the "who". Why? Anyone have any answers? Prometheus didn't answer anything, was all over the place and didn't provide any "definitive" answers. The big question was who, scale says it all....which is why there are so many asking if there are numerous species. Elders vs Engineers etc. Why would they create this "evil' biology? Hell if I know. Anyone out there with an answer? Because as far as I know, there hasn't been any definitive answers provided. Have I been looking in all of the wrong places? Why do they want to kill or destroy us? Is Paradise the planet Adam and Eve were banished from ending up on Earth? Please someone....... a precise and concise answer would be great. "So we know who and why created this. NO WE DON"T.......or at least I must be the only one in the dark. If someone says the answers are coming, yes I get that. But based on Ridley's interview.....Baloney!
BigDaveDeaconMember10416 XPJan-02-2017 5:49 PM
Fantastic Post Michelle
I agree... and well also hope... there is more to this than meets the EYE.. i have campaigned that it seems a Red Herring... a Trap to Lure in the Alien Fans... by teasing us with Xeno connections... showing us Xeno poster, even saying the movie has them all (Egg, Face Hugger, Chest Buster and Big Chap)... even renaming of the movie to a Alien: Prefix.... A change from his comments that seemed to point away from Alien.. then to Alien Paradise lost... that soon became Alien Covenant and had basically Xeno then mentioned in near every thing... compared to the Paradise Lost theme...
Ridley then said he is comming in from the Rear End and Back Door.. well similar... i think Alien Covenant is the aftermath of Paradise Lost... it will give Xeno clues.. give a more Alien meets Aliens vibe... draw in fans and then leave some mystery in the hope the fans would then want to know... WHY/HOW and by WHO... so they can then touch upon those Themes that Prometheus was setting off to do.
The movie is marketed Blatantly to Alien fans... its a U-Turn on the Beast is Cooked and Stepping further from Alien...
Now the Engineers are Cooked (Literally or similar in that Disaster Shot) and we are getting Aliens.. the Eggs, the Xeno.. .. HELL even the Juggernaught is in a position like the Derelict..
The Ripley Tease..... which has many thinking what could it be... and even tease Ripley name would be mentioned..
Its a Alien Fanboys Wet-dream.... its the difference between Spaights and Lindeloffs drafts.... Take away everything Prometheus and Alien Engineers Shared... and all you was left with as far as Alien Engineers is the Xenomorph connections and Monsters...
The Cast.... the Press that saw the Footage are all talking about the Alien and Aliens vibe.... the Ripley connection..
They Cast have talked only about these Alien things....
Micheal Fassbender and Ridley Scott... they have touched upon the Philosophy the Creation Life and Death Arc... and David and Walter....
I think indeed Michelle some Alien Fans will again.. be expecting a Lot more Alien in this than they would get... and also maybe we can see more about the Themes, Philosophy and loosely Engineer Culture.... these are themes kept secret.
The Engineer Scene seems to show Death to them.... The 4Chan Leaks seem to point to a straight up bye bye Engineers and hello Alien movie Origins...
I think its inaccurate... or maybe presented again as a way to mislead us?
BigDaveDeaconMember10416 XPJan-02-2017 5:57 PM
Ridley is very cryptic... and we cant really tell what he is thinking, he can mislead us.... The Source i had was very cryptic too.
Ridley has to be Careful.... he has got some fans.. especially those who are more concerned about the Xeno... fans who may loved Spaights draft apart from the Engineers are Humanoids and created us part..
Because he is teasing at Answers... and if he does not somewhat deliver more now... or at least a bit more but leave it on a cliff-hanger where the sequel surely should answer those questions..
Then i think the Alien Lynch Mob would be out for Ridley...
I think FOX is those Fans Savior.... Because i think Ridley Scott would want to have his vision his ideas.. and get it told how he wants to do it.. and not what the Fans Want... he wants to complete this and leave it as his Legacy.. as he is getting Old... so he wont be worried about no Lynching..
We can only hope Ridley can provide either a movie that pleases both those on the Alien and Alien 5 Bandwagon and those on the Alien and Prometheus one... but there is a chance he could end up making a movie that disappoints both.
I think he would be better to make this as a Fork in the Road..
Its a Alien Prequel Prologue... that carries over Prometheus but then goes to Alien..
The other Fork is to then make a separate Franchise that uses Alien Covenant as a kind of closing statement and allows for movies to steer away from Alien.
I think this would have been the better Route....
BigDaveDeaconMember10416 XPJan-02-2017 5:59 PM
While on the theme of this Topic...
Here is a CURVE-BALL where i have speculated a possible connection to the Immortality Theme.
NoonespecialOvomorphMember27 XPJan-03-2017 4:29 AM
They don't look like Weyland storm rifles.
They probably are and they will factor in the built in tracking scopes with 300m range into the story and how they have issues with picking up the different types of aliens, even on open ground.
I also bet the planet has a longer night period than day when they land.
Neomorph ChestbursterMember739 XPJan-04-2017 8:51 PM
I agree with Stan Winston (deceased)
Ridley Scott is getting old now, he still appear very sharp, intelligent and lively in interviews but what I'm getting to is that his thoughts about life and death and the universe - naturally is more present than before and from that point of view he decided to add these imo unnecessary religious and philosophical aspects to the franchise. But this is the film he wants to make.
Am I really against that for AC? Not necessarily PROVIDED that philosophical ambiguity doesn't overshadow the narrative and the basic premise of horror and survival. Prometheus and Alien are vastly different to each other, the whole picture should make sense imo.
If Prometheus was Ridley's first sci-fi horror and a standalone film, it'd be a COMPLETELY different story, but as we stand there happens to be the masterpiece Alien which unfortunately for Ridley's new ideas didn't touch upon much philosophy and religion.
Again, all I'm saying is that for the prequel idea to work we have to take Alien into account here.
So let's bring back puffy 70's haircuts! Joke aside, just hoping for more Alien horror packaged in Ridley's sense of beautiful cinematography and art direction.
Michelle JohnstonChestbursterMember763 XPJan-05-2017 4:38 AM
In my earlier post I mentioned I began a blog to organise my thoughts and how, given encouragement from Lindelof's, in the absence of a clarifying sequel, I should interpret the events of Prometheus.
To my surprise, although no one responded to my post on AVP, over 250 viewings occurred in the days following, the source being AVP.
As this is the community that I contribute to I thought I would provide the link in case anyone is interested. If you are when you enter, hit the label tab, and the panes fall into sequence. Simply click on a pane and up comes the text.
Those that have read my speculations will recognise a good deal. Those that say what the .... is Prometheus about will find in my humble opinion an answer.
My ideas are based on the movie and the commentaries of the director and screen writers and my extensions based on the subliminal messages the action creates such as the booby trapping of the Pyramid with its prophetic fresco. I could well end up with Egg on my face (see what I did there) when Covenant begins playing but curiously some of the matters that Chris has encouraged speculation on underwrite my views.
Right now I think Janek was right, when David entered Valhalla knowing the Engineers as a race had broken there Covenant over the use of the catalyser,. he offered retribution acting as a proxy for the hierarchy. However like Satan in Paradise Lost once done the deed was not used for heroic Promethean reasons but to further his ambitious curiosity.
AtiPraetorianMember3378 XPJan-05-2017 4:58 PM
BigDaveDeaconMember10416 XPJan-05-2017 6:04 PM
I will look into your Blog Michelle and i am looking forwards to it..
Its hard make out so i got a image from a movie trailer from behind..
Also checked and measured... Daniels and the Person by her and they are both the same height give or take a inch either way. (Waterston could be taller).
Billy Cudrubs hair is different... rules him out (even if this scene is prior to him entering the Egg Chamber).
Demian Bichir could be... but again he has some grey, and also his clothing is a bit different...
Hair and Jaw could match Benjamin Rigby... but the trailers hint he is the first infected via Ear... but we dont know how long it is before he shows symptoms and has to be brought back to the Ship.
Looking at the cast, and trailers and what we can divulge..
The Person next to Daniels has to be....
1) Demian Bichir (looks younger, hair shorter).
2) Benjamin Rigby (But surely he dies before and not main Character).
3) Some yet casted Character (but this shot seems to indicate a important Character...
or JAMES FRACO...
Which goes against the AVP Sources and the Real Leakes (erm).
BigDaveDeaconMember10416 XPJan-05-2017 6:05 PM
But thats far from the biggest HOLE i found in those leaks lol
Thoughts_DreamsNeomorphMember1686 XPJan-08-2017 6:56 AM
I am not really interested in the origin of humanity in the alien universe unless it is connected to the Xeno as a bio-weapon and why the Engineers did it. The bio-weapon is number one, the Engineers two, and humanity three as far as my interests in the Alien franchise is concerned. Having said this an alien movie doesn’t work without good human characters that we can relate to so that must work also.
“Although it is suggested that Alien: Covenant will not touch upon those monumental concepts quite as much as Prometheus did”
Thanks, let’s focus on what made Alien good: people that get into situations that they are bad equipped at handling.
As far as asking questions they must answer some, otherwise we get Lindelofed (I might start to use that term from now on, LOL) which is to get many questions that won’t be answered or answered in ambiguous ways which would suck. Some ambiguity is fine but it gets annoying when there is too much of it. The Xeno connection and how the Xeno came to be in the first place is something that they should keep a mystery but I won’t mind if David re-creates (my emphasis) it.
It doesn’t have to be a pure Xeno movie but it must have a stronger Xeno connection that is basically how I look at it. I am glad that they bring in more of the Xenomorph thing into this movie thank you a lot for that, which is not to say that I don’t want to see other Xeno related monsters too which in a way could expand the role of the goo and what it can do. The black goo was one of the things that were interesting in Prometheus.
I could do with a third Alien prequel but they should be done after that. It gets boring when there are too many because then it feels that they are only doing it for money and don’t care about creativity.
I agree with Stan Winston about this “Calm down Ridley, and try to remember that the origin of the Alien and Space Jockey is what you need to focus on.”
Maybe we will get some parts that Spaight’s did that they left out (that is: how it was before Fox decided to build a lot of crap into it).
They should have had better characters in Prometheus and a bigger Xeno connection. It would have made it so much better. Just the Xeno Fifield was so much better than how it turned out and if they would have kept it, I would have enjoyed the movie a bit more at least instead of the stupid Zombie version. The Hammerpedes were kind of nasty but a bit boring at the same time, they should have kept them out of the movie. As far as the black goo it was one of the interesting things about Prometheus.
What mainly did Prometheus worse were all the stupid characters (Shaw, Milburn, Fifield, and so on). I put them all in the same category because they were all executed in a very bad way. They got to get the characters right this time.
As far as asking new questions if they are interesting then sure but they don’t need to answer all of them if the most important questions are answered. If they give the answer to how the Xeno can be re-created it is alright because we still don’t know how it happened in the first place.
If there are more Prometheus/alien-prequels after this I hope that they will keep the Xeno-connection but they must have good characters. I don’t want to see another movie like Prometheus the way it was shown in the movie theaters. A movie where there is a balance between the Engineers and their monsters could work with good characters which it seemed to me that Prometheus was before they reduced the alien connection and made the characters seem dumb.
Alien 5 is a movie that I am not too interested in watching. We already know how the Xenos behave so that would do nothing for me.