This is a topic that I got inspiration from by listening to the Perfect Organism podcast. They talked about Prometheus and mysteries that were in that movie and of course Lindelof got brought up. Some times things get thrown into movies that make no sense or that are just there for making it seem interesting but where we just never get any answer or that seem to not make sense to the story. At times there are mysteries that make sense and that make us interested, for example the Emperor is an interesting character in Star Wars. One could think about how he got into that position. What was his background? Who were his parents?
Sometimes they make good characters that make us wonder and sometimes they just seems to throw mysteries into it just for the sake of it. This is not just about characters but also about interesting plot points and mysteries. My questions to everyone are:
What makes a good mystery and what is the difference between a good one and bad one? Are there any writers that you like that are good at this and if so, what is it that makes them good at what they do? Of course you can add things to this if there are things that cross your mind that I haven't thought of. You don't have to keep your answer limited to the Alien franchise but also if there are other kind of movies that you think are good examples in the context of this discussion.
If you think that you have anything to add to this discussion then feel free to do so.
I think it depends on WHAT we see as a Mystery, and to look at what is Different from a Intended Mystery or just a Lazy Plot Avoidance.
*Derelict in ALIEN.... a Good Mystery
*Eggs on the Sulaco.... Lazy Plot Convenience
I actually dont mind Mystery and Ambiguity as they give you something to THINK about and Discus. But i know some like to be SPOON FED instead. I usually find those who like the Spoon Feeding also seem to like the Gungo Ho Action Flicks ;)
I think when it comes down to having a Mystery in a Movie then as a Stand Alone then i think its OK.
If its a Planned Series/Franchise then you at least have to EXPECT that those Working on the Movies actually have the Answer to the Mystery its just they have NOT yet got to Reveal it yet...
I think if we look at ALIEN then the Derelict, Pilot and Eggs where all a MYSTERY but its a Mystery that has TWO PARTS.
1) The Space Jockey and Derelict.
This was a Mystery we NEVER knew about WHO the Space Jockey was, or WHERE he was from, or WHERE he was going. We could assume the Space Jockey Race had Built/Created the Derelict Ship. But nothing else was KNOWN and it Never had to be.
2) The Egg Cargo
As this was really what the Movie came down to, then at the Time of ALIEN then this was a Mystery but it was ONE we would kind of have some Idea about. We could be left to Ponder.....
a) The Eggs were something the Space Jockey race had Engineered or Created, in which case you could be Pushed to think about a Sinister Reason for them.
b) The Eggs were Discovered by the Space Jockey and they was being Transported, in which case your left to Wonder if this was the FIRST encounter with them and they was going to Study them..... or they had Already Encountered them before and are Transporting them which could indicate maybe a Sinister Motive.
While in the Movie both 1/2 were left Unanswered, with the Agenda of the Company in the Franchise we could ASSERT what the Reason for the Eggs were.....
Back in Day.... then Ridley Scott had NOT revealed anything about (1) but in regards to (2) he had indeed indicated the EGGS are used as Bio-Logical Warfare, even at times Indicating they was a Engineered Weapon.
so my Point about Mystery is if its something that EFFECTS the Plot then maybe at some point you need a ANSWER and so thats the case with the Eggs.... but then with other Aspects like WHO was the Space Jockey then this could have been Kept as a Mystery.
By that i mean that as the EGGS played a Large Role in the Franchise then the Mystery of their Purpose was something that Ridley Scott etc had known VERY much about and had Mentioned about them (Biological Warfare). So even though this was NEVER revealed in the Original Franchise, what we had was that RS had KNOWN what their Purpose was.
When it came down to the Space Jockey Mystery and WHO are they? WHERE are they from? and WHERE was he going?
This did-not really have any Effect on the Franchise and was a Mystery and One that maybe should have been Kept. And at the Time of Alien ==> Aliens i am NOT sure that anyone working on the Movies had even Thought About or had a Definite Answer to WHO the Space Jockey was and WHERE they come from and WHO was they in Conflict with.
No Soon as you go to make a Prequel then those Mysteries are something that FANS would EXPECT to have Answers.
I think with Mysteries again then Prometheus had made a SET-UP that would likely had lead to know more about the Space Jockey Race but it did make a Reveal that led to more Questions.... And it did kind of INDICATE to the Xenomorph Origins but it was FAR from Spoon Fed.
I think the PROBLEM you have then is IF we have just a Stand Alone Movie that maybe would NEVER get a Sequel then what you have is LEFT more Questions/Mysteries regarding the Engineers/Space Jockey and the Xenomorph Origins...
You have a MOVIE that has just Left More Questions to the TWO Mysteries of ALIEN.... where as really you should have LEFT it so ONE is kind of Answered.... leaving another (more about the Engineers) as maybe the Mystery that MAY or MAY-NOT get Explored.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Excellent points, especially the comparison between the eggs on Juggernaut vs the egg on Sulaco.
IN SPACE THERE IS NO WARNING
BigDave is right imo but I have a different take as a movie watching fan.
It seems like if the answers to a mystery are given, it can spoil things since the way the answers are given can rub fans the wrong way, especially considering different people were involved with the story telling in each movie over the course of decades. On the other hand, most people desire a sense of closure- but this is entertainment and not real life.
Personally, I think a good mystery ends with leaving some questions unanswered. It gives us things to think about and discuss. If all answers are given, there is no reason to discuss anything except for plot holes and such.
Leave 'em wanting more so there is always a sense of "what if."
You don't have to keep your answer limited to the Alien franchise.
The 1982 version of The Thing is a good example of a mystery. We don't know where it came from but saw what happened on a remote outpost with regular people. It ended with two survivors, presumably with one being The Thing, but we never knew for sure. It spawned tons of debate and still does- but an official answer was never given. I like that!
Certainly i do prefer some Mystery, because as you Pointed out this gives us something to Debate and Discus and also sometimes the Revelations can be a Disappointment to what you had Thought about for Years, or even a Contradiction.
The Thing is a Interesting One to bring up, it is ONE of the Movies i have Most Watched. We did get a Prequel that i felt was NOT that Bad, it had Flaws and some of the Effects were a bit of a Let Down... the Main Problem with that was the Survivors.... I think we should only have had the DOG and the TWO Norwegians giving Chase as Survivors.
I know there may be Interest with another Thing Movie but its a Case of HOW do you Cover the Organisms Origins without having Humans. So i think leaving the Space Ship as far as WHERE it came from and HOW the Thing got on board as well its Origins are something thats BEST to be KEPT a Mystery.
I like keeping it a Secret about WHO is The Thing at the End of the 1982 Movie..... I think its Good we NEVER had a Sequel because a Problem with this would be HOW you Deal with the Organism/Weapon as IF this gets out into the Public then its Curtains for Mankind.
About 20 Years ago i did come up with some IDEAS about a Direct Sequel though ;) Which would be about McReady being recovered Alone having KILLED off Childs. We see he is taken in for Questioning (Well we Discover this as the Movie Idea is SET some 15-20 Years Latter) so the Plot Continues that he was Convicted of Killing all of the Outpost 31 Team including Childs and that he was taken to a Secure Ward in a Psychiatric Hospital where he had Spent the Last 15-20 Years of his Life, Protesting his Innocence and Claiming about a Horrific Shape Changing Alien..
It got to the Point that he Started to Begin to Question if we was Indeed suffering from Psychosis. Until One Day a Scientist comes in and shows Evidence that the US Military have Recovered the Crashed Alien Ship.
Realizing he is NOT really Mad... McReady manages to Escape with the Help of the Scientist.
This is WHEN the Idea i had Branches Off into 3 Different Directions where i Fleshed Out the TWO a little but it became another Abandoned Project.
One of the Ideas would have actually revealed that a LOT of People are Infected but they DONT wish to Take Over everyone.... so it was kind of like a Invasion of the Body Snatchers Plot... which reveals some Intelligent Agenda to the Organism.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think its Good we NEVER had a Sequel because a Problem with this would be HOW you Deal with the Organism/Weapon as IF this gets out into the Public then its Curtains for Mankind.
Indeed, it didn't need a sequel. A sequel would have made the original less potent. The implication was that the survivors would be frozen and die/go dormant and hopefully would not be found. It was an air tight example of a great mystery. As far as the prequel, it was unnecessary- it was basically the same movie but its ending did a good job of transitioning to the 1982 movie.....as long as you sat through the rolling end credits.
Perhaps a good mystery is a single movie with no sequels followed by prequels when the well of ideas run dry.
Albert Einstein, "The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science."
So many ways you could tackle this one....it's limitless though.
After 40 years of the Alien franchise I still think there is a lot of mystery. How many times exactly have we seen where and what the engineers really are? None. What we see in Alien Covenant is only a tiny aspect of their civilization...they appear to be an almost inter-dimensional species....across multiple galaxies....so almost anything is still possible. If anything they are even more mysterious now than they were in the first Alien movie with the derelict.
I really secretly like everyone of these movies, even the ones that are not cannon such as the Alien-Predator films...that is off the record though...I just like art for the sake of art.
I think RS made a mistake when he linked the engineers to being our creators....but hey what do I know I do not make movies....so eventually maybe even this will turn out to be even more mysterious with the right special effects and I will like that plot details even more.
Alien is dated obviously after 40 years, the set designs, cathode ray-tube monitors in the Nostromo, no one has anything like a cell-phone communications device, you see actual gear looking cogs in the side of the head of the Alien...ect......However, the concept is still mysterious. This idea of mixing organic based elements, "acid for blood," with metallic nano computers, making it "one tough little son of bitch."
Science tells us humans are most fascinated with things when there is the right balance of familiarity with that of the unknown, or mystery.
There has to be just enough that we can relate to or we lose repeatability in translation.
There has to be just enough that we can relate to or we lose it in translation.
The Alien franchise spans four generations so there are highly specialized themes created for different audiences.
As much as there is absolutely wrong with Prometheus I remember watching it in an almost empty theater for the first time. I really enjoyed the first moment David approaches the engineer in hibernation, thinking this was the moment worth waiting 30 years for. But then as the movie went on to it's conclusion.....I thought even back then why would a multi trillion dollar world colonizing corporation bring just one ship, a few high caliber gun powder firearms, a few flame throwers, one android, a few scientists, and this somewhat well provisioned research ship.....then I immediately thought about the Sulaco...WY could easily afford to make a ship much bigger than that and provision it with much more advanced COMBAT VERSIONS OF DAVID, super fast deadly smart and way more powerful than the mechs in AVATAR.....with high energy particle weapons...if you have FTL you have high energy particle weapons too.
In Alien they were space truckers and were not packing heat...so for Prometheus to make this same sin in a more technical way makes no sense....but anyway they open the hibernation chamber for the engineer literally asking it to help them while pointing guns at it....a several billion year old species....so there is so much about that movie that should have been there, that could have been there and!!!!!!!!!!!! the writers really gave RS something more along the lines of some total BS!!!!
The main reason for going there is to get one of these engineers and not ask it to have tea with you while catching up to compare notes....then you get there and all you can do is ask some questions with a few guns pointed at it and one android translating???
Right? this is that slow silly walk through the haunted house.
So let's try this another way instead...to compare it with something else way more interesting.
Just imagine if something a few million times more complicated than David...another type of AI took control of the hibernation chamber and they introduced an agent into it's chamber and then just took it back to Earth....completely different movie.....and the black goo.....Weyland goes back on ice and they make him younger again by studying the engineers cells which have more than just our DNA mixed with other technology at the cellular level.
Now this would have been a far more mysterious movie and yet we settled for Dr. Shaw taking control of a billion year old technologically advanced engineer space craft, going to one of their world's to ask them more questions? Well how stupid can you get? We just saw how the first set of questions went....AC has some real laughable moments too as well as well as some great science fiction.
I want more possibilities never less no matter how mysterious it all can be or not.
Maybe we will see those real super powerful versions of David that can easily kill Aliens and Engineers....just smash them instantly like a bug...I do look back at that film and wonder why David, who is stronger than many humans, possibly faster than the engineer....just stands there as his head is getting ripped off and then right after says nice trip Mr. Weyland. Just absolutely useless daft plot and dialog.
That is a big mystery why the writers put that in the script....maybe RS is just old and cannot make great epic movies anymore.....seems like James Cameron gets it right though....that scene in Avatar when big mechs are fighting it out with the Avatar creatures is soooooo cool....love that film!!!! LOVE IT!!! but for Prometheus we get a weak stupid David that stands there while his head is being torn off at the shoulders....makes you want to scream with the treatment that entire scene was given.....makes you wonder what really happened when they were filming that movie.
After several viewings, for me at least, Prometheus is a colorful film for juveniles and most certainly not a film for mature adults. You cannot take the film seriously for many reasons as an adult.
First there is the structure of the movie itself that seems to be more for young teens than real hard R horrors. Then there are the almost juvenile treatments with the love interests onboard the Prometheus...petty indifferences....then there are the monsters....Holoway's transformation is uninteresting and just not scary at all...maybe its scary for unsophisticated 10 year olds....the movie permeates with child like curiosities instead of more well constructed "Alien franchise" adult themes.
I would say that Prometheus was a Adult Movie as far as not for the Kiddies... as in it was a Thought Provoking Movie. I would say Aliens and AVP are more for Kiddies as in Action/Popcorn.
I think that YES we could Question as to WHY the Prometheus was NOT more Prepared, and WHY they could not have taken another Ship or a Drop Ship to send down some Security and Combat Synthetics but then this would lead to Radio Contact back to the Prometheus that this PLACE is Dangerous and so Weyland cant get his CURE and Dr Shaw her Answers and it could then be SEND IN more Military. We would have ENDED UP with something like a ALIENS or Starship Troopers.
I think it boils down to Weyland looking to NOT have many know what he FINDS so he can Assess what he does-next should he FIND what he wants. I think that HE and Dr Shaw were being VERY NAIVE in assuming they MAY find these GODS and that IF they do then surely they would NOT be Hostile to us because they LEFT us their Calling Card to come and VISIT when they are Ready.
Dr Shaw being Foolish to Request them to take NO-GUNS... you dont want to go to FIND your Creators with Guns Pointing in their Faces.... and IF they was NOT going to take too Kindly and are Godlike then the Guns would be of Little Use.
Ok the Last Journey to the Outpost we saw that Jackson had taken the Shot Gun to Protect Weyland in Light of seeing Mutant Fifield Turn up. Who knows how much the Engineer paid attention to that and the Threat until he was SHOT AT.
I think when we are looking at David and the Engineer we get the Impression that David was Disappointed with his Creator and HOW he was Treated by his Less Superior Creators and so he was maybe Intrigued to WHY it is that Humans are Obsessed with meeting THEIR Creators.
David prior to this Point had Discovered our Creators are MORTAL, and they may HAVE more Advanced Technology but thats about ALL that makes them Wanna be Gods... so he was maybe Curious to Speak to one of these Beings, especially as he knew they was also Disappointed with Mankind.
David had Noticed the Anger in the Engineers Voice, and yet when Weyland Spoke about David, you could see the Engineer have a look of Interest on his Face, Bewilderment and then Pity..... As the Engineer approached David he had seemed for that Moment to NOT seem Aggressive, as he then Gently Touches Davids Head.. at this Moment then David maybe felt the Engineer had Interest in him, a Connection with him, some Pity.
With Davids comment to Weyland about the Journey, he would know that Weyland had BANKED on Dr Shaw being Right about meet our Makers and that IF they found our Creators then THEY could surely Grant Him more Life..
But there was NOTHING... not that the Engineers would have given him.
And so Weyland is NOW facing Death... he wanted more LIFE, maybe to NEVER DIE... and NOW he is going to Discover IF there is something after WE DIE... what ever kind of Journey to the After-Life that some Cultures and Religions Believe in.....
WEYLAND shall NOW.... Discover... he will either be on a Journey to After-Life... or Nothing!
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I will add the Engineers Plot was a Plot Device to allow for a Reason to HOW in a Time Prior to ALIEN that Humans would END UP going to a Place where LV-426/223 was.
Without the Chariots of the Gods Plot, then it would come down to a Chance Discovery by being CLOSE ENOUGH but intending to go to another Destination, to then Detect a Signal and Investigate.... which is Pretty Much what we had with Alien Covenant.
Without the Chariots of the Gods Plot, then they would arrive at the Derelict or a Outpost of the Space Jockey and they would have NO MEANS to Communicate with this Species or Discovery WHAT they had Intended.
You would just END UP being Faced with a Threat, be that Eggs, or something Connected.... its a Case of HOW do they know what was Intended by the Space Jockey Race?
Where was they Going and WHY?
Where did they come From?
Where did they get the Eggs?
Its HOW do they answers those Mysteries when you Face a ALIEN Species with NO WAY to Communicate (unless they find some way).
And then its ONCE you introduce some Crazed Alien Species without knowing MUCH about them but they had Eggs as a Weapon, its then a CASE of WHERE NEXT?
The Engineers Creators Plot was a Platform to relay some of those Answers to us, and to SET-UP a Potential to Expand the Franchise by Virtue of these Creators.
Prometheus did not 100% Answer the Questions that ALIEN had Raised, it only gave us some Clues, that lead to more Questions.
The Sequel we got did-not really Answer or Expand on the Many Questions of Prometheus, it more so just WENT back to the One from ALIEN..... the Eggs and HOW/WHY and by WHO... but with that Curve-ball that had Fans in Disbelief.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
All very interesting points and counter points you raise…I like where you are going with a lot those explanations why they went there linking it all to how they may or may not find the engineers.
I would like to add that RS makes impressive large set pieces, going all the way back to Alien, that takes a long time for the actors to walk through slowing the pace of the film down.
So these films all have different action sequences where RS takes the audience on a different haunted house ride.
There are a few points though that would be interesting as well to figure out why the writers, producers, and RS did what they did in Prometheus when related to other recently released sci-fi films. I know you want to discuss specific plot details of Prometheus but at some point it becomes less useful a tool artistically when discussing films unless you compare this film with other works closely related in the genera.
Please keep in mind that Prometheus comes out three years after Avatar, and Avatar pulls in the most money of any film ever made at the time 2009. Please keep all those very important details in mind because they are relevant to how RS might could have introduced bigger action sequences and then into other Alien movies so audiences will enjoy the films better and also want to see more special effects similar to those in Avatar like movies….in other words Prometheus 2012 could have earned a billion and half dollars if RS really knew what he was doing.
However, RS chose to make a big slow clunky haunted house plot that actors walked through with cheap special effect gags in them and even more horrible dialog….they produced the seen with the Hammerpede for next to nothing. That was some really cheap special effects compared to the anything closely related to Avatar…I believe they could have gone larger and bigger in Prometheus without making it cartoonish. So I do disagree on specific plot points and the box office receipts prove what I say as well as the millions of people around the world that liked Avatar much more….after coming out the movie theaters from Prometheus many movie goers said they not only disliked the film but they were done with the franchise and would not like to see another film again…..these are not my opinions these are the facts from millions of other real people around the world.
I was impressed that Prometheus could earn a half billion dollars for such low quality film plot wise and with far less impressive special effects.
Now I will always defend RS on the visual aesthetics of Prometheus. Prometheus is a great looking film….it is a very interesting film visually….however it is very slow and boring and the many of the monsters look terrible and are not scary…but once again do not take my word for it….we are talking in terms of real box office receipts and what millions of movie goers had to say about Prometheus overall.
This is not always accurate but it is indicative of what I have just pointed out in general.
Audience Score 68% User rating – 263,170 movie goers….
Contrast this all with what you saw in Avatar and just try to imagine how some of it could have been carried over and done better in Prometheus is all I am saying.
Avatar remains the highest-grossing movie at the international box office (i.e., not counting its domestic gross), with a take of $2.029 billion compared with Endgame's $1.936 billion).Jul 23, 2019
So no matter what characterizations you are presenting it makes little difference if the film is so poorly received and able to understand because of poor writing, plot and other details that the studios will not be able to make another film….compared to what Avatar earned and the way people liked it around the world.
But I guess RS got us again…..and if you are one of those people that enjoys slow walks with a lot of boring useless dialog through the haunted house then this is your movie….
Unfortunately for me I like those boring walks too, hate to say that, but it is the truth….however, I also want the big expensive special effects that look real cool and that interest me artistically because I enjoy good movie making in general.
So it looks like we are in the same boat somewhat on this film…we don’t have the real need to say this film could have done so much more. Then again we will see what happens in the future if these films ever get made again….the studio that owns the film rights now has so many other big action sci-fi films to make in the lineup that can earn tens of billions of dollars in the way fans want to be entertained….guaranteed. Prometheus was a huge gamble and after advertising was still disappointing in overall gross proceeds.
So no matter what you or I think about how great these films were or not so great on some of these points there are just too many other films audiences would rather see that will earn this studio tens of billions for the foreseeable future.
However, should there be one of those really spectacular writers out there and a very professional director that might one day put out a screen play that could be turned into real money due to evolving movie goers expectations you can bet your bottom dollar it won’t be a slow walk through the big haunted house sets that consistently earn less money for this studio and that fans do not want to see anymore.
We got something very unique and interesting with Alien 1979…..it is and shall be one of the great epic sci-fi horror films fore decades to come….who knows maybe even a after both of us are gone other keen movie aficionados might still appreciate it's finer artistic qualities.
BlackAnt In short, I think Prometheus would have been a great movie if it was not related to the Alien franchise at all and the characters were better written. Back to the OP- the sense of mystery turned into frustration and cliff hangers.
The first few Alien movies had a sense of mystery partly because we didn't expect sequels back then.
In hindsight, while the prequels definitely had their strengths, they just felt unsatisfying when the dust settled. Maybe I just don't get it, but the Rotten Tomatoes numbers seem to be on my side. It's too bad because I really wanted to like these movies.
Side note: The RBW trailers mention Scott's movies such as Alien, Gladiator and The Martian but not Prometheus, Covenant or even Blade Runner. Interesting...
On the broad thrust of your question, I like unexplored vista's which draw you in but never quite answer your question always leaving more. Probably because that is how life is, people are, puzzling inscrutable and life is a journey to understanding who we are and then what is going on around us and how we come to terms with that.
In the case of the Alien films as someone who watched them real-time, I thought the texture ALIEN passed through was full of mystery. To begin we had a craft from some faraway world which had landed and the explorer came across this Cave full of thousands of Ovoids. That really didn't need explaining, the pilot made the same mistake the Nostromo did but then a few years later the Cave was the Cargo Bay and there was a relationship between the Pilot and its Cargo. Where was it going what were its intentions, what went wrong?
The subsequent films were by degrees entertaining, mixed and kitsch but there was no mystery there was merely function. Nothing surprised and they were carried by Signorney and in the case of Aliens a director who knew how to make the subject matter bigger and more entertaining.
Jon Sphaits would have delivered a dovetail, a march to the inevitable removing all the mystery. But Ridley saw the creation story as a chance to solve one mystery and create many more.
I loved the way Prometheus worked, the answers came from elliptical analogy and visual messages. The intercut between "what killed them" and David opening the glass vial and revealing the Black Tar liquid a simple clue.
People like to present Prometheus as confused but if you listen to Jon talking about Damon's ideas in the documentary they are one single voice.
All of them were aware of the risk of hijacking peoples childhood memories and they produced a Cult One off Movie which Damon anticipated as a possibility in the commentary.
But it set up wonderful mysteries to ponder and offered some terrifying possibilities which are so grave people never discuss them it's almost too big. What if we were created by dark angels for the sheer hell of it which bleeds into the great undertow of the movie that drove everything Hubris. All of them were hubristic Weyland most of all but Charlie, Elizabeth and David who let things run away from him, the clever adolescent who gets his head removed as a consequence of his smugness.
So we are left forever with the great mystery, what would Elizabeth have arrived at to get her answers. Answers that don't matter according to David and answers that David already knows the answer to. The irony is David may know the most but he has no idea where he fits in. Given other things Ridley has said the answer is no different to the truth for Elizabeth. So if they are a footnote what is the big note and that to me is a great mystery to be left with.
If we are the result of fallen angels swirling around in a Petri Dish whats the real deal.
Speaking of the RT scores I find it… interesting. You have the critics and what they say and then you have the audience's scores. The audience's score for Prometheus sits at 68% and the one for Covenant is 55%. I agree somehow with the score of Covenant even though I still find it to be too high as far as my taste goes but it is closer to what I would rate it while I don't get the score for Prometheus at all.
My rate for both movies would probably be 40% because the characters are either mostly annoying or just don't bring much to the story (Prometheus), or uninteresting (Covenant, most of them). Eventually the actors did what they could so I blame it on the script and the editing in both cases. How can movies with such for the most part crappy characters get a rating that high? Sure they look good but most of the characters. . . are disappointments. Art is subjective and people sure can have and should be allowed to have different opinions but sometimes I just shake my head at how people rate things.
To all that have that have given your ideas here: I appreciate all of your replies, feel free to add more if you want to.
I think that is well a very accurate well worded summation of these films.
I am stuck on the genius of RS though carried through these other films muted very badly by rough scripts and penny pinching studios...RS took us through the haunted house and I was always along for the ride...but audiences do not get these slower films....it does mean they are wrong they are just different films for different reasons artistically.
Prometheus could have been much better than Avatar....although I like Avatar artistically for purely aesthetic reasons lets be completely honest the acting is less then stellar.....and the special effects carry that film a whole lot.
Could Prometheus have had more action sequences and for TLOG.....could we have had some real interaction with the Engineers!!!! AHH it litterally makes you want to scream...the reason for the film plot wise is to go meet these Engineer GODS!!! and they are set decorations essentially....they are treated as plot devices when they are the purpose for the film and at the end of the film it is the worst....one is just running around CHASING DR. SHAW!!!! and these are several billion year old aliens that made us....
It all makes no sense and as much as I like BD, and I know he will defend this film to the end, I sometimes really hate how we all were just royally [email protected]$%#! ED over in this film....if it was not the dialog it was the plot....if not the plot it was the treatment the Engineers were given....like I said before I think almost every frame of that film is stunning....beautiful....the sets were very cool ect....but, the monsters and the slow pace.....been there done that with so many many many of these films....we deserved better and RS should have delivered. But he did not.
The scene where they analyse the Engineer head was the best thing I have seen in Sci-fi. If I had to pick on thing out of all the sci-fi movies I have ever seen it would be that one. If only the rest of the film could have had that type of creativity...the second best scene is when David peers into Dr. Shaw's dream....I think RS gets that so right on so many levels....like I said some things in that film are so incredible....the map room when the 3D holomap appears on the Juggernaut...
I know when they examine the engineer head RS is just rehashing his scene with the tension created by the face hugger with Kane when Ash and Dallas are trying to remove it....we all get that but I don't care it is still one of my favorite scenes of all time in all of sci-fi....very transcendental work as great as it will ever be done in all of any type of artwork!
But over-all the movie as a whole is a rough draft....it should not have been written and produced that way....they had so many talented and gifted people to work with and so much equipment, those incredible sets....it was somehow wasted.
I would like to have seen more of the Engineers in Prometheus because they were interesting. Prometheus was somehow successful as far as profits are concerned because it was the first alien related movie in a while and also Scott was back. One problem is that we should have had more of them because it was kind of disappointing and hence not as many people saw Covenant. Even if Prometheus would have been a success they should have had a bit more of the Engineers if it wouldn't have made as much money. They should have been better explained in Prometheus so maybe more people would have liked to see them in Covenant and also we would maybe have had them in more scenes other that David bombing them.
You mentioned when they examined the Engineer head and it exploded. That scene didn't scare me but it felt kind of icky because imagine the possible stench and also I imagined it being kind of sticky like their equivalent of how humans have fluid that surround their brains. It didn't make me scream it was more like "eew!!" but it always feels more disgusting when I think about it compared to when I see it in the movie.
I completely understand that....the duality of seeing it play out then the vividness from the other senses.
I liked how they scanned the structure of the helmet the WiZZZZZZ and sounds of the computers then the medical electrical device to trick the cells into accepting the electrical charge change states....very interesting stuff to be sure.
That is the best thing about movies, is that your mind fills in the gaps of what you think should be there so it can really come alive....obviously we all know it's just actors and props; but, they were so good that bunch in that movie...for just a few minutes it is exceptional art that transports you to another place.
Great art can do that.....there is something always more than the sum of the parts....that is the real magic of great movies.
I am going to GET SLATED for this ;)
I have NOT seen Avatar yet, tried to watch it before and could not get into IT. I do OWE it a viewing though.
Effects wise i think it was all SHINY and GLOSSY but a lot of it did look TOO CGI! Some Scenes came across more PIXAR... as in the Na'vi and their World. Now dont get me WRONG the CGI was Good and Vast on Scale but just looked more like a Borderline Between a Live Action Sci-Fi and a Pixar Movie.
But i cant PASS a Judgement on it until i have SEEN IT (instead of just not being able to pay attention).
The Avatar Story is ONE that is aimed at a Larger Audience than ALIEN so its NOT quite Fair to Compare them.
With Inflation the Avatar Budget would be Equal to about DOUBLE what Prometheus had... with a Big Budget you can add all sorts of SHINY EFFECTS and Explosions and Stuff like a Transformers Movie etc.
I think if we did a ALIEN Prequel Reboot and it had with Inflation something like a 300M Budget you could have loads of Flashy Effects... but it would depend on the STORY.
With loads of stuff like that you could Run the Risk of having a AVP meets Starship Troopers kind of Popcorn Flick.
I like Prometheus because of the POTENTIAL that the Plot had Unlocked, more so than HOW Great or Not the Actual Movie Execution was.
Looking roughly at AVATAR and the Plot as its Core (as far as i Understand) then you could have had that SET in the ALIEN Universe for sure...
Weyland-Yutani Company Discover a World and they WANT to gain Something from this Place for Financial Gain but the Planet has some Humanoid Inhabitants who are in their way?
So replace the Na'vi with Arcturians and Follow a similar Plot to AVATAR and then say if AVATAR had never exisited then YES such a Movie could have Existed in the ALIEN Universe prior to the Prequels.
With the Prequel Plot then who is to say that there are NOT many Worlds out their with Humanoid Inhabitants who are a little Different to Humans and we see the Humans Greed as we TRY to Rape their World for Resources.
Prometheus had its Flaws..... it had Potential to explore things BEYOND the Eggs and Queens...
In a IDEAL World then they should have INVESTED say $150M in a Sequel that would have taken us back to LV-223 that would have been more Popcorn Action Horror with Various Monsters and Clues to the Xenomorph that would have then CLOSED THE DOOR to ALIEN.
That via more Exploration of the Horrors that are Connected to the Xenomorph we have GIVEN the Xenomorph another String to its BOW..... something to Further Expand on if wanted.
It could have left a bit of Ambiguity and Intrigue towards the Engineers so Fans may want to know more about them and what other STUFF they Create.... and WHERE else have they tried to DESTROY...
Then we go and have another Sequel to Prometheus that goes to where David and Dr Shaw are off too... TAKE THEM to a FAR FAR place.... were we can cover more about the Engineers, the Creation Plot.... what other Races have they Created and OPEN UP a Expanded Franchise that does-not have to be about LV-426 and Xenomorphs.
But ALAS.... we never got this... FOX Buckled and Felt they had to give us a MOVIE which will Answer the Origins to the Xenomorph and give us Xenomorphs and SET-UP the Path to ALIEN but also that this had to also be a Movie about David.....
Instead of a TWO Branches Expansion to Prometheus as i discussed above.
A lot comes down to MONEY and it seemed FOX just never Fancied Risking a BIG BUDGET on the Franchise.... and with the MESS its in NOW then i am NOT Sure Disney would either.
I think maybe you could go and see the Engineers and have them going around with their Horrors and Technology but its a case of HOW does this NOT go and Conflict with the Franchise.... there seemed to be NO signs that we had been Hunted Down by a Angry Advanced Race of Humanoids...
If the Engineers are in Large Number and with more Weaponry than we have been Shown... it would be like the Colonial Marines vs Cavemen.
You could say that with AVATAR we have a Technologically Advanced Race vs a RACE that is NOT..... However the Na'Vi seem to have the Numbers Game and are Physically more Superior to Humans.
The Danger with the Engineers is they look Equally as Superior as the Na'Vi with more Advanced Technology than the Humans. If say the Na'Vi World was one the Engineers wanted and they Wanted to RID this Place of them..... Then the Juggernauts and Black Goo would DESTROY them with Ease.... the same applies to US.
If the Engineers had other kinds of Advanced Weapons
Then it would also NOT be a Fair Fight.... unless some of that Tech was USED against them.
So when Exploring Engineers with a Dislike for Mankind who are coming to Destroy us... the Likely thing to BALANCE the Books is the Engineers bringing with them something like the Xenomorph that they LOOSE CONTROL over and Turns on them.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Prometheus - The Movie
The more I listen to Ridley the more I hear the businessman lining up Trilogies. He talked about a set of Prometheus Movies he talked about a new set of Alien Movies.
To really answer your tactical points he should just make one great movie and leave it at that. That's not an original thought but the focus should be on telling a story that people come away from knowing something not all this leaving it out for the next movie. Jim Cameron is here in New Zealand making an Avatar Sequel good for him but we do not need one from a storytelling point of view. Avatar was a one night stand and a very entertaining one.
This is more of the answer to thoughts and dreams. If you show a degraded holographic image of the past and some real-time artefacts, that creates mystery. It's just the former need to have some exposition that communicates.
When I wrote the scene of David in the Juggernaut I put the Jockey Station at the centre of the Bridge so the reader knew where they were (tick) and then revealed much more detailed and meaningful holograms which told a story. I am layering in the Engineers into the story. After the scene with the head, we know these guys are jockeys so let's get on with some more detail and flesh it out. There are far more clues. You have to have the balance of clues right with a mystery.
When they enter the Headroom Sanctuary there isn't one mural, which you can barely see in the film, there are several of them which underwrites Steve Messing's point that the Deacon was the unholy progression of all that had come before. But it is still a place of mystery, of looking back into an ancient past. You want a mystery but you want a decent substantial question to ask. But what caused the Storm, the Urns to leak the Murals to disintegrate? That can be a mystery that no one even appreciates is happening.
Janek's conversation with Vickers is important because what he says to her is actually the truth wrapped up in speculation. I gave Vickers a much more satisfying arc and that scene is important in the context of that and the "what's gone on here" vibe.
When you arrive at the Homeworld it's not downtown New York. You are looking back into the deep ancient past to see what happened. There is still a mystery.
If you have a proxy you can identify with and the right balance of clues its perfectly possible to offer a satisfying complex many-layered mystery. I would suggest that mode of storytelling is particularly suited to the philosophical questions that Prometheus poses. Indeed it's particularly suited to Prometheus because the ideas it is tackling in the real world are a mystery!!
We all learn slowly but surely what we like. I am pushed back by the obvious and drawn in by the subtle. Equally, when I write something I write that way.
On the specific point of the Engineers appearance in the Movie.
The wake-up scene needed to make its point very quickly wonder to horror with the Trigger the Engineer mortally wounding Weyland with his creation. There is so much in that moment, the benediction, David's wonder, then the shock and the beautifully pathetic notion of the creator the wizened old man floored by the head which lies disembodied.
As for everything after that its one of the consequences of merely overlaying Jon Sphaits action beats replacing the Ultramorph by the Bad Tempered Big Guy.
Both Paradise, the recent entwining of the two movies, and my remodelled novel cast all that aside. Indeed we leave all of the same material out bar Vickers.
Much deeper into my story in the second part when creatures Billions of Years Old, who have mastered the secrets of the Universe, feel the need to lay the law down and exercise their power it does not involve chasing anyone around an escape pod. These are creatures that hold within their grasp the ability to shape worlds and catalyse life but then that poses another interesting question, what exactly is the sleeping pilot we meet in Prometheus capable of, indeed what is it?
What a truly profound question.
"what exactly is the sleeping pilot we meet in Prometheus capable of, indeed what is it?"
(always verify links before clicking on them for security..You can also go to youtube and look up the movie as well.)
This is the link to Youtube...for the video trailer for the movie called Life, released 2017. I like the ever increasing ominous tone of the movie and how the production team executed great special effects. $58 million production budget....I think this demonstrates that exceptional movies can be made with amazing science fiction horror and incredible tension.
This film scared the you know what out of me even as an adult.....with Prometheus you are at a petting zoo for little kids...the entire film is just not scary in any way.....the Hammerpede wrapped around the arm was interesting...
So for me when I see the engineer suit that is part of the body....so they might wear it like clothing. They can take layers off, but when they apply one it digs in to their dermis and becomes part of them.....what do all the different layers do? Some of this should be left to the audiences imagination. With the full suit they can work in highly corrosive environments for example.....I think they were the ones to make the black goo and the Xeno...but that is how I would have made these films.
I would have made them a little taller too....15 foot minimum...and the suits are weapons for example...you see the acid for blood in the original alien....so in Prometheus I would have had the Engineer touch one of the humans and then they would have dissolved down rapidly into a pool of carbon very quickly just by touching them...those suits would produce food from sourced nano atoms around them and compile the finished nutrients right into the vascular systems....
This is all off the top of my head. I am sure if sat down and wanted to give this a proper treatment I could think of some things that would translate more effectively on the big screen.
The battle with the squid monster at the end was unforgivable....something like that and the engineer would have just touched it, secreted a substance so deadly it would made that thing wither, die, and shrivel up almost instantly melting all horribly down into the floor....these are billion year old creatures that have far surpassed the limits of molecular biology and the quantum mechanics of physics mixed with nano technology. To be subdued by something with physical appendages is a very sinful mistake to be making with the plot and characters. It makes a fool of the audience straight away in an unnecessarily aggressive way.
If you have not seen that movie Life or you have, I think it would be interesting to apply those qualities but then morph them into the suit/skin. The suit is that "frightening."
These are movies you can do almost anything with them with the right ideas. They can scare an audience so bad it would need group therapy right after LOL....Prometheus is clumsy, slow, juvenile, and has plot holes so bad you drive the Sulaco through them....with a staggering 130 Million dollar budget...maybe they bought very expensive coffee for the crew instead of producing a great scary Alien film instead....would be nice to see their ledgers....cause the money did not get spent on making real sci-fi entertainment.
This is no slight to RS either I know about the studio and the calls he got while in production...a lot of this was never his fault in any way what so ever. He wanted a much different treatment / taller Engineers and they told him no causing him to scrap a lot of ideas and sets. BD should be able to confirm that because he has more specifics on just how silly the studio was with the other sets RS wanted to build and film.
"... if you listen to Jon talking about Damon's ideas in the documentary they are one single voice."
I hear what you are saying but it the movie should make things somewhat clearer. What you say about the dialogue makes sense but that and what we were shown should have been better tied together. People shouldn't have to watch a movie 10 times to understand it, not everyone will understand it after one sit. Honestly it took me a while to see the connections but not everyone have that patience or interest. Visual messages is something that you mention, but I am not sure if everyone are that patient and some people want more through dialogue. To me at least I would have liked if the dialogue and visual things should have been better mixed. A movie that is obvious wouldn’t be good for this franchise since it doesn’t seem to fit, but it shouldn’t require tons of research.
You mention the different view-points that David, Shaw, Weyland, and Holloway had. Those ideas in themselves are interesting but unfortunatly I didn't find Shaw, Weyland, or Holloway to be interesting since they were so poorly written. It had interesting questions but mostly poorly written and/or executed characters unfortunatly. When the characters don't work then I don't care about the themes, but that's just me.
The rest of the things that I will reply to are things that I see are meant for BlackAnt but I found it to be interesting. I will write a response to them as well, only reply if you want.
Ridley seems to be into the business side of it, I am not sure if that is a good approach. (I almost wrote Ripley, have you ever thought of the fact that the names are so similar?) Yes it got to make a profit but if you think too much about the money you might miss the art-side of it. To improve the art (things about the movie that are not strictly about the money) you can't think too much about keeping things under budget because that might give you a worse quality in the finalized thing. A smaller budget might be bad financially since it might make the movie worse so less people watch it but there might also be a possibility to make movies cheaper and make them work. Unfortunatly I can’t give you an example of a sucessful movie that had a low budget, even though there might be one or more somewhere.
I wish that they would have had more like cave paintings that would have explained things better. They should have given us more clues to this one, at least let us look at it longer:
The picture is taken from a thread here from 2016 titled Is the Beaked man a representation for the eagle who eats the liver of Prometheus? Unfortunatly I am not sure who took the picture originally. You can find a better version at the Strange Shapes blog at https://alienseries.wordpress.com/2014/0/page/2/.
"Janek's conversation with Vickers is important because what he says to her is actually the truth wrapped up in speculation."
Not sure if it is in the movie or as an extra thing. If it makes sense it is probably an outtake. ;) Vickers could have been so much better in the movie, that was a missed opportunity. Unfortunatly they just wrote her as a corporate bitch which I can understand but the cut scene with Janek makes her more interesting. Janek says something about her being in pain, she doesn’t look well but maybe she has some conflicting thoughts. She should have been better written and she should have had more moments like that to make her character more complicated and not a question of being either this or that. People in real life have more of A, some have more of B, some are AB and some are BA and some are CD. Vickers felt more like A. . . . . b type (no pun), she had small variations in her personality but she was mostly distanced and authoritarian (case in point how she says ". . . and that makes you an employee" I think that she said it to Shaw).
To continue about Shaw they tried to give her some father issues with Weyland but that failed since I didn't care much for any of them but I guess that it was because of the editing and then the script so I don't blame the actors. Both Theron and Pearce seem to get roles so they must be somewhat qualified for what they do even though I haven't watched a lot of their movies. Vickers was authoritarian and Shaw was dumb ("that is what I choose to believe" let me tell you, this is science not a church). Sorry for the long paragraph
As far as mysteries in general not only tied to the alien franchise I think the idea that to uncover a mystery you need to give one more or two. This goes for both TV-shows, books, or movies. Take for example Star Wars, we get to know a bit about Jabba in 6 even though he was mentioned before that. In Star Wars 6 we saw a bit of what he was about but we didn't get to see everything about his gang so for example we didn't see a lot about his ties to the bounty hunters, we didn't get to see how his gang worked in general. You can ask if they were just on that planet? Did they have contacts elsewhere? How was their relation to the empire? You could look at Jabba as a being a non-human version of Al Capone if you want. This paragraph was written to show that this isn’t just tied to the alien-verse, it applies to many other things.
My post was about mysteries in general, of course the alien ones get mentioned since this is an alien-board but it doesn't have to be just about the alien-franchise. Like I said, Star Wars is a good example. Another one is the Lord of the Rings trilogy where we don't get to know everything about the various life-forms either which (with interesting surroundings) brings you that wonder. Don’t explain everything and do it in an intelligent way is important with art in general it seems to me.
Thank you for referring to ‘Life’, which I have watched.
In terms of execution, it functions well but there is no depth merely entertainment.
On the question of the special effects in Prometheus Ridley was anxious to use practical modelling rather than CGI that was a stated policy decision whether it works is down to individual preference personally I feel the entire riff at the end was off.
In the documentary, Jon Sphait’s is quite emphatic that rather than the SJ be giant elephantine comedic beings they should be relatable for storytelling purposes.
When you consider the Nobel Savages that offered the Donation Genesis and then consider the look of the woken pilot, something has happened there which can be important and bleed into what has been going on on this "Anthrax Island." If they had gone to Paradise they would have found out the answer to that. They wanted to make monsters sub create something of their own why was that so important?
Thanks for your thoughts.
I think why Prometheus is correctly named a cult film is because only a certain type of person will enjoy it and the reason it missed with a lot of people are the reasons that you give which I understand.
I have always been intrigued by your disdain for Shaw and wondered whether its because she represents a person of faith and given your remark "this is not a church" it sounds to me that you are unhappy with her faith as if it and her are out of place in the movie.
My view is if a search for our creators, it is essential that a person of faith is included within that search.
I wonder is your real objection that they should not have made a film within the Franchise, which is essentially a quest for our creators with all that implies. It wasn't a quest for some cool Engineers but those who made us.
From the original sacrificial scene to the rebirth of the Deacon, the ritual of life is before us and the movie should take us in a direction where we get Elizabeth’s answers. Who made us why and what is our purpose. What she would find out in the movie Prometheus is, dark angels made us because they could and our role is merely a punt whilst these dark angels seek to perfect a replacement.
So how would a person of faith react to this? The answer is there must be more, who made them, what’s really going on? She will not accept as a person of faith that is all and that's how Prometheus the movie ends.
So what would Prometheus Paradise have been about and how would Elizabeth as the person of faith as our proxy react to what she found?
She would arrive at Paradise and it would become clear she already knew the answer to her question. The reason we were made was that someone could and the reason we could be replaced is because they could. The really fascinating question is why were they doing this, why were they attempting to sub create and introduce their own vision?
“For me, to echo some elements of Mary Shelley, It is a study of an unsentimental god, it is about creativity and destruction, of a people without loving relationships that allow havoc to reign and evil to triumph."
And that is my answer in my story "The Furious Gods".
But to return to Elizabeth.
Dr. Shaw, a scientist who believes in God, is responsible for a mistake that could evoke the Greek hubris. More precisely, she “wants her religious beliefs affirmed, and believes she is entitled to answers from God”; but “her questions remain unanswered and she is punished for her hubris”
So in order to tell the story, she has to be a person of faith and having asked her question she is punished. But is there redemption for her?
In the "Crossing" we see the first part of her redemption the healing of David out of a desire for forgiveness but it is also out of vanity so that she can get her answers and so she is not entirely redeemed and the punishment continues.
In "Furious Gods" She faces the ultimate test to achieve redemption and it is in the form of Temptation.
Equally, David is drawn into this because he is responsible for her punishment. He does not need redemption more a sense of purpose in 'Covenant' he finds it by a sub creative act so he is now merely copying the fallen angels that all so begs the question. They were destroyed by what they created so will he be and by the same power? That I am sure would have been the story of the Space Jockey in the original 2015 vision Ridley had but that's to digress.
In the "Furious Gods," by being healed David is given another chance. At some point, he suffers remorse and conscience, is that the first move toward having a soul something that Weyland says he will never have?
He is given a glimpse of 'Heaven' and understands finally how he, David, knowledge fits in. But he too is tempted.
So eventually the Person of Faith, whose faith no longer makes any sense and the Android seeking meaning realise what they must do. The answer takes us back to the beginning of the Tale or let's say they believe that is the answer but they will only find out by a, “a leap of faith."
To come back to Prometheus because that was made and we have the evidence to go looking for our creators without someone of faith would remove the relativism to what they found and each other. So much of the final act of Prometheus up until the craft smashes into the Juggernaut needs her faith-based viewpoint. For us the onlooker its the only thing that keeps her going.
So for me that she is from "the Church" is vital. You have a perfect right not to want a Spiritual dimension to be placed in the mix but if you want to treat evil seriously rather than generic horror then you have to have goodness. In the first Trilogy Ripley is weary heroism against remorseless hate in the second set of films it would have naive faith.
"BD should be able to confirm that because he has more specifics on just how silly the studio was with the other sets RS wanted to build and film"
I am not sure HOW MUCH the Studio had impacted the Height of the Engineers, when Production started to begin they had intended to give us 10ft Engineers (Downgraded from 12-15 in the Drafts) but for some reason there was a Decision to NOT use any kind of Effects to Portray the Engineers Scale and so Camera Angles would be used instead and i think this was something that RS had chosen to do as he liked to keep things as Practical as Possible.
But Certainly the STUDIO would have Held a LOT of Influence over Changes, which had Included the Decision to REMOVE the Xenomorph and Similar. To TOWN DOWN the HR Giger Aesthetic and to NOT give us a Literal Prequel.
There are others working on the Project who also have a LOT of say in things, which include David Giler and Walter Hill. Its Common for Movies to have to CUT Material to get a Theatrical Cut that is NOT too Long, so that it Allows for more People to be Willing to give the Movie a Chance, if the Movie had a Extra 30-45 Minutes then maybe ONLY the more Hard Core Fans would have turned up and so Box Office Figures could have Declined somewhat.
I think Prometheus was a Movie that DID-NOT give every Fan what they Expected and FOX felt that to STEER AWAY from Giving Answers to the Xenomorph and to NOT have the Beast Back, was MAYBE a Mistake.
I get the Impression that RS was Actually Happy with Prometheus for the Most Part, he seemed to be more Pleased with that than the Direction of Alien Covenant.
Prometheus had its Flaws.... some Suspect Writing/Moments of Stupidity but then a LOT of Horror Movies have these as a Plot Device. It depends on HOW they Execute these Plot Devices and some i FELT was not so BAD but some were SILLY and UNNECESSARY.
ALIEN was well SILLY for letting Kane on board... HOW Stupid was ASH!!! But then you get the Curve-ball that he was a Synthetic and Special Order 937 which was a Masterstoke to show that this was a Deliberate breach of Quarantine by the Robot ASH so was very WELL thought out and a Good Addition that Hill and Giler added to the Story.
I think Prometheus has its Moments of too much Ambiguity for some... Its a Movie you have to STUDY and go back to Numerous Times to start to Appreciate it and kind of BEGIN to understand it a Little.
PLOT HOLES... i think it depends on what you would Consider ONE to be, other Movies are MORE Guilty of PLOT HOLES or things that MAKE Little Sense.
You were going to come up with some Conflicts when you go for a Chariots of the Gods Plot.... where our Ancient Mythos and Religions all STEM from the Engineers and Interaction with them. Especially when you would have then Expected the Engineers to look like.....
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
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