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The Xenomorphing podcast, new episode

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Thoughts_Dreams

Jun-29-2020 6:52 AM

There is a new episode of the Xenomorphing podcast out (episode 3,5 LOL). This time they discuss if there should be an Alien 5 or not. I appreciate that there are people that discuss this franchise even though I might disagree with what they are saying. When we think about the fact that this has been around for more than 40 years it is impressive that there are still people that are interested enough to keep discussing it like this.

Here is the page if you want to give it a listen:

https://xenomorphing.podbean.com/

31 Responses to The Xenomorphing podcast, new episode

BigDave

Jun-29-2020 9:49 AM

Well its a Difficult Question....

I am sure Fans would want to see another ALIEN Movie, its just a case of WHERE do you go and PLEASE the Majority?

I Fail to see how bringing back Ripley is nothing more than Fan-Service. If this approach FLOPS then the Franchise would be as GOOD as DEAD!  If it becomes a HIT then its a case of the PLOT and does it offer a Passing of the Torch or something a BIT different?  Or would it just be Sequel after Sequel about Ripleys Dreams?

I think there is Potential to Continue with a Chronological ALIEN V and either Follow the ARC of Ripley 8 or maybe Investigate what became of the Failed Ripley 7 Clones QUEEN?

I think its Difficult because your NOT going to please everyone.  I dont think we NEED to have a Ripley.

But i think maybe (AT FIRST) you cant really go and Deviate too FAR from the Xenomorph we all know... but i dont think you can Continue to Spawn Movies that STICK to what we already have...

A Difficult thing is also HOW do you AVOID any Conflict with the Prequels... without doing a RETCON of whats been Shown?   I am sure there are ELEMENTS of the Prequels that some Fans liked.... that they would have LIKED to had seen Covered... while there are OTHERS that Many would WISH was all a DREAM!

I think there are some GOOD points to the Prequels that we can take over in a NEW Movie....   The Covenant Mission being ONE...

The Background FLUFF being that the Earth is NOT so Nice a Place anymore.... a Paradise that is NO-MORE and so you have Humans who are in Search of a NEW START a NEW Eden!

At some point in the FUTURE of the ALIEN Universe and indeed our OWN reality, we would see the Discovery of a Habitable World as the GREATEST FIND for our Species.

Origae-6 was ONE such Destination within the Franchise, but the Covenant was Alerted to a MORE ideal World in Planet 4!

So you have Earth, you have Planet 4 and you have Origae-6.  But they SURELY are NOT the only Habitable Worlds in our GALAXY?

The Engineers Plot opens up a WHOLE manner of Worlds that these beings had PLAYED a ROLE in the Creation, Evolution and Revolution  (Technology, Architecture).

The GREAT Potential of PROMETHEUS was that we could have Many Many such WORLDS... There were some INTERESTING aspects of the Creators/Chariots of the Gods PLOT!

What about XENOMORPHS?

I think if you are TRYING to Sell the Fans a ALIEN Movie then you DO have to Introduce them... at Least in a WAY where you can SOW seeds to CHANGE them in Sequels.

So the Potential for their to be OTHER Worlds that the Engineers had kept Humans or very Close Relations on is ALMOST CERTAIN...   Did EVERY World/Civilization go around and UPSET the Engineers?  What would Worlds who DID-NOT really OFFEND them look like?

Would they LEAVE some Engineers to RULE over them as Egyptian Pharaohs?

But such a World Needs to have our Xenomorph.. so HOW do you do that without STEPPING on the Prequels Toes?

The Prequels are NOT Finished.... we are LEFT with the Derelict... and REGARDLESS of WHO is Responsible.

You can Envisage bearing in Mind what Happened in Alien Covenant that you either have...

1) David who is Displeased with Mankind and the Engineers, and so HE could have Created and USED the Xenomorph to DESTROY not ONLY the Earth but other Engineer/Humanoid Settlements.

2) The Engineers Discover what has HAPPENED on Planet 4 and they Determine that ALL OF THIS... would NEVER had Happened if ALL of Mankind and other Related Creations had been ERADICATED.

So OFF go a Group of Engineers who decide to UNLEASH the Xenomorph on other Humanoid Colonies they had Seeded so as to ERADICATE any FUTURE event like what became because the EARTH was never DESTROYED.

You just DONT say where the Eggs came from on the NEW WORLD that you could Explore.... NO mention of the Date.. NOTHING!

You have a World FAR FAR away that a Would-Be Human Colonist have Surveyed to Explore for Potential Colonization.

The World has some Remains of a Ancient Looking City, Partially Covered in Vegetation and Partially Covered in something NOT-SO Vegetation.

You have Monuments, Statues that Depict Smaller Humanoids and Larger Humanoids as though Worship towards the Giants.

You Find Remains of Humanoids... could be Human, you Find some Encased in this like NO-QUITE Vegetation Vines..

You get the Human Explorers (Part of them) Explore a Temple... and more Dead Humanoids... and then their is a THRONE.... on the Throne a Giant 9ft Humanoid... with a HOLE in his CHEST AREA

You introduce the Xenomorph as some Eggs that get Disturbed in another Room.

The Humans are REALLY up against it.... then they are Rescued by some other Humans (or close) or even a Engineer who have something that can DETER the Xenomorphs away...

There could be NO real Communication with these Rescuers and so that can Result in some Conflict.

You either have ONE of the Humans has a TATTOO in some Ancient Earth Language.... or the Worlds Inhabitants has a TATTOO or something...

That then is Recognized by someone on the other Party (be that a Human or Synthetic recognizes this on the Inhabitants or Vice Versa)

Survivors go to a Safe-Place where some Relics are Found that have some Connection to some of Earths Ancient Mythos.

At this POINT their are Multiple Ways to Create Conflict between the Humans and the Inhabitants.

You END it with some of them HAVING to come together to Combat a Greater Threat!

Or the Few Survivors are taken to a BURIED Engineer Ship...  and this could be USED as a Escape from this World that has became OVERRAN again!

You can MIX/CHANGE some Parts of such a PLOT..

But it shows you dont have to GO to LV-223/426 or Origae-6 or Planet 4 to introduce the Xenomorphs but also to TOUCH on some of what the Prequels had Covered.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Leto

Jun-29-2020 1:54 PM

Howbeit - most importantly is to try your best to avoid the another cavemen, stone cities and the lack of advanced alien technology.

It may be an abandoned, dead, abandoned place, but it must be Technopolis. Not a Stonepolis. xDDDD

Another human colony is also a boring place. What Ridley undoubtedly does well is showing us new, alien worlds. But he has to get away from landscapes that resemble a park in your backyard.

I believe that rejecting biomechanics (the aesthetics of the environment, not a creatures) was a serious mistake.

It doesn't matter if the next film will be a retcon or a sequel. It doesn't matter if Ripley is there. But they must use biomechanics. This is exotic - people will be interested.

 

 

howbeit

BigDave

Jun-29-2020 3:42 PM

"But they must use biomechanics. This is exotic - people will be interested"

Patience ;)

I think that YEAH we eventually get to a Bio-Mechanical World for sure ;)

I like to think you have to DANGLE a Carrot to the Fans, to NOT give to much away but SET-UP the Potential in a Sequel.  Again this can BACK-FIRE if such a Idea is a FLOP and you DONT get to do another Sequel

So i forgot to Mention that this World would not be Totally VOID of any Technology.  (I covered this kind of Plot the other Day in more Detail on another Topic).

So you have signs of a City that is Reminiscent of a Ancient Architecture but inside you have something a bit similar to what we saw on LV-223.   The idea being the Engineers have SET-UP some Smaller Cities Across the World that are Spread-Out and in Secluded Areas.

These Ancient Sites are NOT MANY in Number and at a Great Distance Apart and the Reason for this is that the Engineers decide to KEEP the Sizes Down so that the Civilization in each are more Manageable.

They are RULED and Watched Over by a Engineer or maybe a Handful.  The Engineers are in Communication with each other via Technology, which only a FEW of the Humans are Permitted to use.

So when the incoming Humans Arrive they will see what is a Ancient City/Town that seems LOST to the Forest... but they detect some Signs of Technology that is ODDLY out of Place for such a Ruined City....  When they Enter some of the Buildings they can make out that INSIDE they seem to be from a MORE Advanced Civilization that it appeared from the Outside.

By a Colonist i dont mean it has to be a MASSIVE SHIP with Thousands, but more of a SCOUT Ship... where they are to Investigate the World, Set-Up Camp and then CONTACT HOME to say this is a IDEAL Location.

The Idea of a World that is NOT really a Technological Metropolis and a World that seems LOST to the Jungle, is so that the Incoming Human Ship would detect a Habitable World and then be in Surprise at what they Discover, rather than Detecting from AFAR a Technologically Way Advanced Mega City.

You also SET the Movie beyond the Events of ALIENS (Time-Line)... a World that is Many Hundreds of Light Years away or in the Thousands...

You can have a Hidden Ship on the Planet that is Engineer but Different...   The idea i was thinking was that PRIOR to our Intended  Destruction the Engineers came to Earth to Rescue some Humans... to TAKE US away on some kind of ARK or a Number of these.

This will SET-UP a Possible Plot for a Sequel as the Activation of this SHIP could Highlight other Worlds the Engineers have been too... or are From...  its VIA this Ship that we can then TRAVEL to a more Advanced Bio-Mechanical World.

You could have instead or Also the Engineer Ship that had Deployed its Cargo.... maybe this Specific City was the LAST STOP and Dispatch of the Last Cargo from its Navigation System you can Determine where the SHIP had been and where it was due to GO/RETURN and also other Engineer Destinations.

The Idea being you introduce the Xenomorph Menace you show a World where it appeared Humans and Engineers had Co-Existed prior to a Xenomorph Infestation.

You have some Technology and Ships at the END that allow for a Option to Leave and GO off to other Worlds using Engineer Technology.

You may think... HANG ON? have we NOT seen this before with David and Dr Shaw... then YES we had.  I think the Potential was LOST to where they could have gone NEXT.

Which you can PURSUE via other Travelers from Earth.

The Reason for the Ancient Cities i think FITS with the Engineers as they come across to me as a Race who will HELP a Civilization Reach a Certain Point of Technology but then you DONT allow them to Gain More, or more Knowledge, and you Contain them in Cities that are ISOLATED so they Dont come into Contact with others.. so that SHOULD you have a UPRISING on your Hands in ONE City then its GOT No-Where to go before you can STAMP IT out....  kinda Learn from your Mistakes on Earth (for the Engineers).

I think this is HOW the Engineers Civilizations Work as far as Worlds they Inhabit and i would see Planet 4 as this.... a City that is Contained, Controlled and Watched Over by some Chain of Command/Cult to keep Order and the Scorpion Docking Ship which Watchers over the City.

The Hierarchy of the Engineers being NOT from this Place (Planet 4) they maybe have Worlds that are Technological Bio-Mechanical Metropolis that are more Heavily Guarded

But they have Worlds where there are Restraints on Technology and Ships so they can Contain/Control the said Worlds as a Preventative Measure from Rebellion.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

MonsterZero

Jun-29-2020 3:42 PM

Listened to it.

Wow! Debby Downers! lol they sound defeated.

 

 Leto wrote:"landscapes that resemble a park in your backyard."

I agree with this...But it does fit within the budget...Find an exotic location and tint the sky...Save $$$$.

 

Leto wrote:"I believe that rejecting biomechanics (the aesthetics of the environment, not a creatures) was a serious mistake."

Thought The Giger estate was not allowing them to 'giger' the environment? they only paid for the rights to the juggernaut and the xeno likeness?

 

 

 

MonsterZero

Jun-29-2020 3:49 PM

BigDave wrote:"a World that is Many Hundreds of Light Years away or in the Thousands..."

I'd make it another galaxy and have Ripley's father find it(fan service..but hey). Ripley's dad has been in cryo-sleep aboard the Daedelus . He started the journey when Ripley was 15. Link the series like that(fan service..but hey).

 

BigDave

Jun-29-2020 3:49 PM

Again i am not sure if such a SLOW Plot would suit everyone...

Maybe its BEST you just Turn Up at a Bio-Mechanical Super City/World.   This could Work if the said World has NO Survivors... or that the Few are Stranded as some kind of Device is used to Disable all (or Most) the Technology.

I think another Problem may be to have the Incoming Humans as what?

Small Expendable Ship/Crew sent their by the Company because the Company Suspects their are Xenomorphs to be gained...  We have BEEN there already.

Military Ship and Marines Sent to Investigate again because of a Suspicion that something is there... again we have KIND OF done that...

A Scientific Mission that does-not Expect what it Finds but sees the Potential to TAKE some Eggs to W-Y for Research... again we have KIND of Done that have we not?

so when i mention a Scouting/Research Ship to Check Out a World to see its Potential to be a NEW EDEN.. then the Crew would be Unsuspecting and NOT really Equipped to Deal with the Situation... this is WHAT made ALIEN and ALIEN 3 Work.

You could just send in the MARINES!  But you do risk this being some kind of STARSHIP TROOPERS...

Surely you could have a Military Ship at play in Sequels.

I think if we had a Military Ship go to some Engineer Advanced City that would be like Krypton from Superman Man of Steel meets HR Giger and then we see some Engineers are there or they are Awoken and Technologically Tooled Up!

But HOW do the Humans stand a Chance?  it would be like Shooting Fish in a Barrel maybe?   Ah ah.. not if Xenomorphs come into Play.... but we could just see a AVP with Engineers instead of Predators..

This is NOT to say we cant Eventually Reach such a thing... i just think thats something to HOLD BACK on for Sequels...

Because if you GIVE TOO MUCH in the First Movie its then WHATS NEXT?

I think and thats NOT to say i am Right... but i would have something like what i Suggesting and then you can GAUGE the Reaction and see WHAT the Fans want in a Sequel

You then can Tailor a Sequel to Explore that.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

MonsterZero

Jun-29-2020 3:59 PM

"A Scientific Mission that does-not Expect what it Finds but sees the Potential to TAKE some Eggs to W-Y for Research... again we have KIND of Done that have we not?"

 

Yeah all those plots have been done to death.

 

You could have them visiting the systems star, cause it's going supernova, or it's a certain type they want to study....THEN they just happen to find something odd on one of the planets?

BigDave

Jun-29-2020 4:12 PM

"You could have them visiting the systems star, cause it's going supernova, or it's a certain type they want to study....THEN they just happen to find something odd on one of the planets?"

Kinda like Alien Covenant ;)

Joke ;)

Yeah you have to think of something thats Different a bit to what we had before ;)

One ALIEN Movie idea i had a Few Years ago... in 2014 was to have a Human Mining Operation on a Planet/Moon...

They have Discovered a World that is Rich with some Alloy or other Commodity that is DEEMED useful.  But they Cant seem to get to it in Bulk as their DRILL BROKE..

So they ORDER a Better Drill... this is Incoming with a Crew.

Using this they Break Through into a Cavern System... where they make a Terrible Discovery... Horrors that where LONG BURIED by a Volcanic Eruption... NOW once again Unearthed...

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

MonsterZero

Jun-29-2020 5:10 PM

There's just so much world building needed for the Alien verse'. Really needs a tv series to help it along...worked great for Star Trek.

 

Far as we know:

Only been one mining ship(failure).

Only one exploration ship(failure).

Only terraforming one planet(failure).

Only one colony ship(failure).

 

They can tell us (better to show..but budget$$) about successful colonies or how many planets they've terraformed....or fleets of mining ships scouring the galaxy for ore.

Feels like a dead universe..maybe that's the point?

Leto

Jun-30-2020 12:48 AM

>>>I like to think you have to DANGLE a Carrot to the Fans, to NOT give to much away but SET-UP the Potential in a Sequel.  Again this can BACK-FIRE if such a Idea is a FLOP and you DONT get to do another Sequel

It works only and only if you are dealing with a solid guaranteed series. Like LotR, Hobbit, Star Wars trilogies. Even if a some one film gets a bad box-office, it doesn't matter.
Because you are already doing a trilogy, and it is the success of all films that is important, not individual.

Alien/Prometheus is another case. Sequels and trilogies exist only in words. The next films can only be filmed if the previous film is successful. And even then they can be changed. It doesn’t matter because of the studio or the director - the reason doesn't matter. Therefore, I believe that if you have great ideas, you should use them immediately. Because no one knows whether it will be possible to realize them later. And as we know, Ridley loves to change his mind five times a day. 

>>>Because if you GIVE TOO MUCH in the First Movie its then WHATS NEXT?

Wait a second - what are you talking about? I don’t even want to comment on this. This has always been a challenge for creators throughout human history!

Do what you plan. Try your best to realize your ideas. And next time really come up with something new!

 

Isn't that what we're talking about lately? Does Ridley want to show us something new? Please welcome!
But let him show us something new in one sitting. And in the next film he’ll come up with another new things.

Otherwise quote:
"if you GIVE TOO MUCH in the First Movie its then WHATS NEXT?"

Sounds like an excuse. Excuse for lack of creative ideas or even for milking!

Leto

Jun-30-2020 1:28 AM

MonsterZero

>>>Thought The Giger estate was not allowing them to 'giger' the environment? they only paid for the rights to the juggernaut and the xeno likeness?

What the 'giger' environment? Giger is the great father of biomechanics. But the biomechanical style, like the style of any art, belongs to people. There are many artists who create in the biomechanical style on a free or commercial basis. And they don’t pay royalties to anyone.

Alien, Juggernaut and everything that was shown in the films is the property of FOX. They can use as they want. Of course, they should make mentions in the credits, but that's different. Also, Giger worked on Prometheus.

Again, about the aesthetics of biomechanics. It was planned for Prometheus. Then for Covenant. But they refuse. Add to this Ridley's comments and it becomes clear that this is only his decision.

I think - you're right. It's all about money. Making a film in the forest is much cheaper than building weird scenery from scratch. But as BigDave said - making a $$$$ is very bad. But no profit, no funding for the next project. Therefore, it is not surprising that in the absence of funding you have to go for a walk in the park.

BigDave

Jun-30-2020 4:01 AM

Well i think that is some Good Points LETO ;)

If a Director has some Ideas on how to run a Series of Movies say TWO, then i can see the Point that IF you dont show the Ideas in ONE movie you may NEVER see those Ideas.

Particularly if the First Movie does-not make Money, but also there is the Chance that  a Continuation will be made by a Different Director who may COMPLETELY Change what you Planned... Then again the STUDIO can also Force in Changes.

I think we will Differ on HOW we see certain things... what i mean by KEEP something back, is say in Context to the Idea i proposed you have these Humans Discover this Ancient City with a more Technological Advanced look inside.

So at the END you have the Survivors discover from a SHIP the Location of other Worlds Connected to these Giants so that you then have the Opportunity to go off to these Worlds and have them more Bio-Mechanical.

If you made the First Movie a Bio-Mechanical Advanced World with all the Answers and Engineers Galore then its HOW do you END it.... and then WHAT NEXT?

Just be more of the SAME?

Which is really like ALIENS a bit as in Terms that the Impression you had was the Xenomorph was some Parasitic Invasive Species that would in effect be like Space Termites and so then your just going to go back to seeing more Hives etc.

Sometimes you also CANT Fit all your ideas into a SINGLE Movie so you have to By-Pass some, but also leave a Set-Up for others.

For Example HOW would you Re-Edit say Prometheus to give us more about the Engineers, but also Throw in the Xenomorph and then SHOW the Space Jockey Event...  And IF you squeezed it all in then WHATS NEXT?

The same applies with AC...  if you Tried to make it so that AC was Changed so that it Directly Ended with the Derelict on LV-426, then you really are making the PLOT basic and simple...

This works great for Popcorn... but maybe not for every type of Movie...

But indeed you make a GREAT point that while leaving something to look forwards to is interesting to some, and IF it Never happens you have a Mystery... i know its NOT what some Fans like who prefer Spoon Fed.... but the GREAT POINT you made is that THIS is not a LOTR or Star Wars.

So a Sequel is NEVER a Guarantee.

I think the Franchise is in a HARD place right Now... and maybe it NEEDS to go to Basics and what Most Fans are Familiar with and HOW the Xenomorph is Portrayed more than Most in all Mediums.... which is a Popcorn Fest...

If this Turns the Franchise into a Starship Troopers then i guess if thats what will make Money then so be it.

The ONLY other real Option would be to REBOOT the Prequels and NONE of the Gods and Creation stuff.... but then you could be having the Space Jockey as similar to the Predators just they look Aesthetically Different...

But both are 8ft Alien Species who have different Connections to the Xenomorph, and GO around Kicking Ass and taking No Questions... with their Advanced Tech and Superior Strength..

Things like the Engineers Background... the FULL Sacrificial Scene that had me interested in their Species...  Not Seeing Body Building Blue Bob going POSTAL on Mr Weyland.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jun-30-2020 4:35 AM

I think back to the OT...

Then it shows that there is a lot of Hesitation to Continue the Franchise and a Case of HOW do you do that.

The Prequels being so Divisive among Fans you really are going to STRUGGLE to Continue that and PLEASE all of the Fans... because the Fanbase is so Fractured on what it likes and dislikes.

I think the Prequels had set themselves up for a FAIL with the Boldness of the Engineers Plot as far as their Background and NOT just down to the LV-223 Engineers and the Horrors they was trying to Create.

But it is the Latter Part (LV-223 Dudes and the Biological Horrors) that would be WHAT a lot of the Alien Franchise Fans especially those who like the Games/Comics would want to see.  The Thought Provoking, Philosophical, Chariots of the Gods and all that stuff being a Distraction from well ALIEN and ALIENS etc.

And especially where we are with Alien Covenant i think a Continuation is NOT going to Yield something that SELLS and its NOT going to Yield something that will Please everyone.

On the other Side of the Spectrum if you would then its about the BASICS.... what we mainly see Portrayed in Games, Comics, Aliens, Alien R and AVP etc.

This while being a BIT on the SIMPLE side is what the Franchise is more WELL known about in General and WHAT would make more Money.

I think you see Hill and Giler seeing that any Future Alien Plan would have more Chance of Passing the DISNEY seal of Approval if they GOT back to Basics.

And thus the RIPLEY Movie Plot... where they are bound to bring the Xenomorph back and i would think they would KEEP it Aesthetically the same as we saw in ALIENS or at Least ALIEN.

The ALIEN Movie is Iconic to this DAY.... and ALIENS is a Good Action Continuation... Sadly after this is where things just Went of the Rails a bit....

So the Prequels are in a Pickle... its maybe a FOLLY to Continue... unless you get a REBOOT... but then such a Option could do away with some things that Prometheus Fans Felt had the Chance to Expand and Uplift the Franchise.

So its a CASE of HOW do we do another ALIEN Movie?

It seems that Giler and Hill are playing if SAFE by going for Fan-Service... in a Resurrect Ripley.... AGAIN!

I am NOT really sure you have to RESORT to that though...

There are OTHER WAYS to try and give us a ALIEN Movie that you then can Expand on and Change a few Things and Explore in Sequels...

AGAIN you may NEVER get a Idea that pleases everyone.

Maybe the ALIEN Franchise needs to be LAID to REST?

Theatrically Speaking.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Leto

Jun-30-2020 6:20 AM

 

>>>If you made the First Movie a Bio-Mechanical Advanced World with all the Answers and Engineers Galore then its HOW do you END it.... and then WHAT NEXT?

There is two issues:

1) Reverse "psychology". Show the biomechanical world in the first film and go to the ancient aesthetic in the next.

2) It follows from 1. Prometheus had a stone aesthetic. But the sequel - Covenant too! An uncomfortable question arises - when will you move on to the biomechanical worlds? In the third prequel? In the fourth? Fifth? Sixth? In the art of Covenant there was a biomechanical city. Why was it abandoned? But more importantly - what prevents further abandon biomechanics?

 

>>>Sometimes you also CANT Fit all your ideas into a SINGLE Movie so you have to By-Pass some, but also leave a Set-Up for others.

Sometimes you really cannot. For example, on technical or runtime issues. But if there are no such obstacles. Moreover - you already have the footage, there are simply no logical excuses.

 

>>>For Example HOW would you Re-Edit say Prometheus to give us more about the Engineers, but also Throw in the Xenomorph and then SHOW the Space Jockey Event...  And IF you squeezed it all in then WHATS NEXT?

It seems to me that only you are talking about adding xeno to Prometheus. No one has a problem with the lack of a beast in the film. But in general, it was possible to add cut scenes and make some moments (for example, an attack of snakes) more believable.

 

>>>And IF you squeezed it all in then WHATS NEXT?

Trying to do something new?

What I’m trying to say is that you cannot have one idea for a whole series of films. One idea - one film. Another idea is another film. The third idea is the third film. Do not try to milk one idea over several films. I will say bluntly - this approach is no different from the endless queens, marines and facehuggers, which you mention. Nothing different.

Engless Queens and Ripley = endless promises on of answers, preqeuls, biomechanical worlds. IT'S. ALL. THE. SAME.

 

>>>IF it Never happens you have a Mystery... i know its NOT what some Fans like who prefer Spoon Fed.... but the GREAT POINT you made is that THIS is not a LOTR or Star Wars.

Mystery. Seriously? In my opinion this is called an unfinished story. 

And do not confuse with my words. I am talking about the LotR and SW trilogy in the context of the guarantee that they will be filmed regardless of the box-office results. Not in the context of a popcorn or answers. I think the difference is obvious.

 

>>>The ONLY other real Option would be to REBOOT the Prequels and NONE of the Gods and Creation stuff...

If you constantly postpone your ideas and leave the story unfinished, then do not be offended if people “adjust” your work. But what choice do they have?

 

 

>>> Not Seeing Body Building Blue Bob going POSTAL on Mr Weyland. 

And this is strange! Because this is Ridley's original vision! This was before Covenant. And no one told Ridley what he should do - he himself decided to show the Engineers how silent athletes who sacrifice themselves, sleep and beat people. I thought that you agree with the point of view of the director...

David understood this - perhaps the Engineers are creating life in space, but they are also aggressive enslavers. Tyrants who do not tolerate "competition" with another species.

BigDave

Jun-30-2020 7:03 AM

"And do not confuse with my words. I am talking about the LotR and SW trilogy in the context of the guarantee"


I think you misunderstood me ;) Indeed what i was meaning was that Star Wars and LOTR they were Guaranteed to make Money, not they are Successful because they are Popcorn.

With those Movies we also KNEW they was intended to be Trilogy's so the Fans knew they SET-UP for Future Installments, even when ONE would Disappoint like The Last Jedi, the 3rd was Guaranteed to be made because it was to be a Planned Trilogy.

With the ALIEN Franchise this was NOT the case.. each Movie indeed was not LEFT to Guarantee a Sequel.

With Prometheus we saw RS take a similar approach.... but actually that Movie did leave it so OPEN Ended that it did seem to LEND towards a Sequel more than being a Stand Alone...

With Alien Covenant then the idea was to SET-UP a Connecting Series of Movies that will TIE-IN to the Original and so AC does LEND to Needing a Sequel...  so with AC they have indeed set it up to have a Continuation but they have also Wrote themselves kind of into a Corner.

"It seems to me that only you are talking about adding xeno to Prometheus"

I am just talking in General if you had gone back to the Drawing Board... which say is like the early Drafts... The Alien Engineers Draft did seem to Cover Quite a bit more related to the Xenomorph and LV-426 and NOT really Emphasis on the Engineers Back Ground and Philosophy/Creation as much...   This draft did leave us a Few Questions... where you would have more likely HAD to go and Explore where the Engineers came from... what i am saying is IF you had Alien Engineers but then in this you also GAVE MORE away about the Engineers then it leaves you maybe with LESS to explore in a Sequel

Certainly and i NEVER imply that EVERYONE had a Problem that Prometheus did-not give Answers to LV-426 or show the Xenomorph...  Some Fans expected there to be more which maybe accounts for some of the Box Office... but Certainly its NOT what Everyone had a Problem with.. I would NOT go as far as to say that NO-ONE had a Problem though.

My Comment about POSTAL BOB.... is not so much a Critique of that Scene... but that if they was to Explore the Engineers more in a Sequel to Prometheus then i found the other Aspects to be more Interesting than to say see a Sequel where Suited LV-223 Engineers Rock Up with their Xenomorphs or other Horrors purely to KICK ASS!

With Prometheus i was intrigued to Discover more about them than merely the ASPECT of the LV-223 Engineers and a Agenda to go around and DROP some Horror onto Earth.

But i think many Fans would prefer to see more of them as they are SHOWN in the Comics....  Maybe that works... certainly as far as Popcorn Horror Action and that SELLS...

so what i mean is there is MORE to the Predators than wanting to go around the Galaxy looking for the Next Hunt and Trophy....   but that its a case of maybe the Fans would NOT want to go and Delve into the Predators Past Times and Culture beyond THE HUNT.... like do we really want to see Predators Flute Playing etc..

So maybe the SELLING POINT to the Engineers has to be the Aggressive SOB's that we saw on LV-223.  The other Elements to them... as with the Predators Greater Culture is maybe better kept a Mystery to give them that Mystique/Enigma which is something that maybe the Space Jockey has LOST in light of the Prequels.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jun-30-2020 7:36 AM

I think Certainly when we CAST ourselves back to ALIEN and you see Derelict, the Pilot Room, the Pilot and even the Egg Cargo Hold....

You would NOT have Fathomed that the Revelation of this Species are Humanoids who Dwell in Ancient Cities like we had on Earth during the ROMAN Era....

But it FITS with the Ancient Astronaut and Chariots of the Gods Plot!

If we have a Species that have a Hierarchy then these at the TOP of the Chain may want to Restrict the Technology of their own Species and their Creations so that the ELITE can RULE over them with more Control.

But surely YES you would have to go and look at WHY would they have such Advanced Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic in some Cases and NOT in others..... so YES eventually you would have to TAKE us to a more Bio-Mechanical World where the ELITE would have HELD their Council.

However..... i think MOST of the Fans wishing to see more of the Engineers in regards to a Engineer World would have wanted to see more of that Bio-Mechanical Aspect....

I think Planet 4 was toned down too much in that Context.... certainly Earlier Concepts indicate that the World had much more of that HR Giger Aesthetic.

I think if we saw a RETURN of the Engineers then most of us would want to see the more Bio-Mechanical look and i think EVENTUALLY then the Fans (majority) would want to go to another WORLD that is VERY HR GIGER.... I know in Part its a Disappointment that we did not get this in a sequel to Prometheus.

With the idea i proposed it was a case of the World that was Discovered is NOT a Engineer World as per say but another Seeded World like Earth was... where the Engineers would come and go.... and a Few Engineers would remain to Watch Over this Worlds Civilization and so they would NOT keep their Advanced Bio-Mechanical Cities there.

So its pretty much like with Prometheus... if the Engineers had Visited us over and over, they surely would have had the Ability to Build some Advanced Bio-Mechanical Structures and Technology on Earth.... but that seems to NOT be the case... so its looking at the Reason for WHY NOT?

I think the Prequels became Problematic because Prometheus did-not give enough Answers or more so it never really had a Replacement for the Xenomorph...

Alien Covenant did.... if you went back and Changed say Alien Covenant you could have had David Create something that was Different to the Xenomorph.. and the Movie would have had TWO Monsters with Attack Scenes that would be more like what we had in the ALIEN Franchise..... 

But all we got was the Space Cobra and Toxic Avenger Zombie Fifield.... so they was NOT really a Good Enough Substitute.....  ok we got the Deacon... but we never saw nothing from it... unlike the Ultramorph from Alien Engineers.

I understand they wanted to CUT back all the ALIENY stuff and they Cut it Back too Much...  I Understand because RS saw the Potential to Expand away from Xenomorphs and ALIEN in a Sequel.

Alien Covenant was a MISTAKE!

In Hindsight you could have had a Mission to LV-223 a more Military/Science Mission... you could have had Fassbender play another ROBOT...

This Movie could have been more like a Alien Engineers, and gave us Monsters, more Clues to WHAT was going on with LV-223.

You have the NEW David and a Team Discover a Juggernaught and detect it was sent a SOS from LV-426 and so all SHIPS went into LOCK-DOWN.

You could then have the Science Division with the Doppelganger pull up the Ships Star-Map and Determine that David and Dr Shaw are off to Find the Engineers...  

They Send Back information to the Company about what lies on LV-426 (precursor to Special Order 937) and then the Doppelganger and Survivors go off to maybe Pursue Dr Shaw and David.

You then can FOLLOW with Dr Shaw and David who arrive at a Engineer World that is Thousands of Light Years away... that maybe takes them MANY MANY years.

You dont have to worry about ALIEN and Steer Away from this...

The Engineer World could have Humans on it as a way to introduce them... its UNLIKELY that Earth is the ONLY such World the Engineers would keep Humans.  So there is MANY ways you could cover what they FIND...

David could even Teach Dr Shaw ways to Communicate with the Engineers on the Journey or you find another Plot Device to allow this..

If things END a bit Rosy for Dr Shaw... well that could ALL go to POT when the other SHIP from LV-223 that has Davids Doppelganger a Scientist and Military Types on it.. and this SHIP rocks up at Paradise.

But ALAS.... what is done is done.... their is a LOT of Damage to try and do some Damage Control..

Yet their is MONEY to be made from the Franchise... I just dont think that has to come down to giving us RIPLEY back... because IF this Movie or Plot either does-not do well and gets SLATED by Fans then the Franchise could have ended up with the FINAL NAIL in the Coffin.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Leto

Jun-30-2020 10:05 AM

>>>even when ONE would Disappoint like The Last Jedi, the 3rd was Guaranteed to be made because it was to be a Planned Trilogy.

>>>With the ALIEN Franchise this was NOT the case.. each Movie indeed was not LEFT to Guarantee a Sequel.

>>>With Prometheus we saw RS take a similar approach....

Yes. This. It was a mistake. Use the planned trilogy approach for essentially separate films.

 

>>>Alien Covenant was a MISTAKE!

Like Alien 3. Like Alien 3... This is not the continuation that people wanted to get, but rather a product of development hell. And constant rewriting and and changes of the mind. But there are people who like Alien 3. But there are people who like Covenant.

And here is an interesting thought - it seems to me that we must support retcons. After all, if the Alien 3 retcon works, then the AC retcon can also work!

 

>>>In Hindsight you could have had a Mission to LV-223 a more Military/Science Mission...

It does not sound inspiring. LV-426 was used twice, because at that time no one really thought about exploring other places. But now returning to LV-426, LV-223, Planet 4 is like stagnation.
This will work well in short cameos/memories. Or for example, the final act of Alien Awakening, where Derelict will crash on LV-426 at the end of the film. It can works. But the main place should be new. Not visited... by the viewer before. 

 

daliens

Jun-30-2020 3:05 PM

Leto most people want to see characters and landscapes they can relate with, even if sci fi films, easily digestible. Later, looking at some scenery, they could say, look, this reminds me of the opening scene in Prometheus. How many people posting here don't want to see the continuation of the David's arc because they cannot relate to a robot? People want to see human characters, super heroes they can identify themselves with.

Show them some different form of life and they are unable to recognize intelligence in it if it is not humanoid. How many people agreed with the representation of the aliens in Denis Villeneuve's Arrival?

Why do you think that a biomechanical landscape, which I suppose would be quite expensive, would interest the general audience and subsequently their $$$$$$? Wouldn't that rather make them uncomfortable?

I honestly believe that the best solution in this moment is to let Ridley Scott do the sequel to Alien Covenant and evolve the beast somehow. Otherwise we have the space bugs running around and some heavily armed marines shooting around, some women and children to fake some screams, just to make it for all ages. This is the frame, you can't fit a good script in it.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

Leto

Jul-01-2020 7:10 AM

daliens

You write total BS.

 

>>>most people want to see characters and landscapes they can relate with

>>>some heavily armed marines shooting around

LMAO. I would never have thought that Aliens-hater himself would explain why people love Aliens so much, but not the adventures of philosopher colonists.

daliens

Jul-01-2020 8:33 AM

Leto

That explains why people eat popcorn in the theaters. 

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

BigDave

Jul-01-2020 9:15 AM

"Yes. This. It was a mistake. Use the planned trilogy approach for essentially separate films"

I think the majority of the Franchise was SET to NOT require a Sequel....  With ALIEN then i think that was OPEN to a Sequel, with ALIENS and ALIEN 3 i think they Ended in a way to Not Require any....  ALIEN R likewise.

Prometheus kind of DID leave it as to Wondering where David and Dr Shaw go Next (same with prior Drafts). I think RS saw the Potential to open up a Expanded Spin Off but he knew it was Dependent on the Success of the First Prequel.   I would assume some of the STUFF they held back they do so, so that the First Movie has Questions, which Fans will Speculate on, which could Generate a Interest to then Continue with some Answers.... 

The ambiguity of Prometheus and what potentially it could SET-UP has led to many Debates and Questions, much like ALIEN had too (Space Jockey, Eggs) so i would say that YES to a degree some STUFF is left out as a Carrot to want Fans to see a Sequel to get  Answers.

If NO sequel is made then it leaves it a Mystery which some Fans are ok with and other prefer to have Answers.  I wonder how many Fans in HINDSIGHT.. would wish that a Sequel (AC) had not attempted to give any Answers to the Eggs Origins?  And would RATHER have NO Answers than what we seem to be getting?

With Alien Covenant we are informed that THIS is now a Series of Prequels that WILL lead us to the Back Door of ALIEN, so the SET UP is that we are MORE than a Single Movie from getting to ALIEN... at the Time RS had indicated it would take maybe 2 more Movies before we get to ALIEN.  So in affect he was Planning for a Trilogy from Alien Covenant.   But its a Trilogy where you have to Question IF they have the Next Two Movies Planned out?

The Pitfall we have is that with AC not doing well and not getting Rave Reviews... then it becomes a Prequel in LIMBO..

"Alien Covenant was a MISTAKE!"

When i mention this, i understand the Developmental Problems as they could NOT really come up with a Story they was Pleased with Until 2015

I think it was a Mistake in that i feel you NEVER had to Force a Continuation of Davids Arc to LINK to the Origins of the Xenomorph.

I still felt the BEST way to give those Answers would have been another Return to LV-223, you think the Company are just going to NOT want to Discover what Happened.. and when we Eventually got Special Order 937 its a case of where did this come from and WHY would they bypass LV-223.

So a Return to LV-223 would give some Closure to ALIEN as you can Uncover more about LV-426 from this (Prometheus they barely Scratched the Surface of those 5 Complexes). So you can give a more Action and Alieny Flick with Monsters similar to the Xenomorph, where you can give more Clues/Answers to WHAT the Engineers where doing on LV-223 and WHAT had gone down to Cause the Outbreak.... and indicate that a Remnants of the Experiments is on LV-426.

Door to ALIEN is then CLOSED..

A Prometheus Sequel with David and Dr Shaw would then NOT be Restrained to Answer what Happened on LV-223 or the Xenomorph, and have more Freedom to Explore other things.... which still could Eventually be the Unleashing of a Horror.

Prometheus had OPENED up a Pandora's Box of Horrors and Potential...  with Alien Covenant it kind of PUT the Franchise BACK into the BOX.

A Franchise that is inside a BOX its a case of how many Eggs can you FIT into that Box ;)  (we have had 4 so FAR)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Leto

Jul-01-2020 9:20 AM

daliens

Yes, they eat and so what? Theater is fun.

But more importantly, it explains why people prefer complex characters instead of deep meaning.

Leto

Jul-01-2020 9:57 AM

BigDave

>>>I still felt the BEST way to give those Answers would have been another Return to LV-223, you think the Company are just going to NOT want to Discover what Happened

You should try to look from the point of view of an regular viewer. And then two uncomfortable questions arise:

1) Why should I again go to the film about the dead and desert (synonymous with “boring)" stone in space? Contrary to all expectations, xenomorphs will not lure the public.

2) Uh, oh, doesn't that look like working on bugs, an attempt to make the "right" Prometheus? It does not look like an attempt to give answers. Because in the minds of the viewer, the LV-223 is an unanswered trap.

Here's why:

>>>I would assume some of the STUFF they held back they do so, so that the First Movie has Questions

Questions.

Few expected to see xenomorphs in Prometheus. Those who followed the process of making the film knew that there would be no xeno. Check.

Reluctantly, some people have accepted the humanoid Space Jockeys / Engineers.They also appeared in early interviews and teasers. Check.
The behavior of the characters has become the main source of parodies. No one expected this. But at least it was pretty fun, right? Check.

And now the main thing - questions. If you lived on Earth in 2012 in our dimension, then you know that even after removing the xenomorphs, the film was advertised as "find the answers". It was even a slogan for a stand for Blu-ray discs six months after the release. There were no answers in the film. WTF?

People came to the film for answers, but received questions. And people were not mistaken - because everyone including FOX, director and writers talked about the answers. It's funny enough that Covenant once again did what Prometheus had to do.

---

Returning to the characters. Funny enough, Ridley again gave the characters strange behavior. I think we should ask - how elaborate will the characters in the third sequel be? And in the fourth?

Will all the forces of the maestro again be directed to the android? And the rest of the characters will take off spacesuits in space and try to stroke the monster?

And in the end, the xenomorph is again to blame.

 

BigDave

Jul-01-2020 10:04 AM

"I would never have thought that Aliens-hater himself would explain why people love Aliens so much, but not the adventures of philosopher colonists"

I think thats a Valid Point Leto..

I think the PROBLEM is that Fans have their own Likes/Dislikes, and YES we know ALIENS is maybe the Most Recognizable of the Franchise.

The Prequels was a Attempt to Give some Answers to the Xenomorph Origins and WHO was the Space Jockey, but its PLOT was NOT to be purely Based on Xenomorphs.

We would have had the Prequel as a BRIDGE so that it goes to Indicate more about the Xenomorph and Purpose but then it left it OPEN to go off to STEER AWAY from LV-426 and Xenomorphs.  And to cover the Space Jockey Plot (Engineers).

The Problem with PROMETHEUS was they Toned Down the ALIENY aspect... the Monsters and Clues to the Xenomorph Origins and LV-426... this was DONE too FAR that it Did-Not give enough of a BRIDGE to ALIEN.

So then FOX had felt that you have to Actually go and MAKE a Direct Prequel Series with THOSE Answers...

Thus it has KIND OF made a Sacrifice and Limitation on what a Sequel that STEERED AWAY from the Xenomorph/LV-426 could have been.

While giving a PLOT that has DISAPPOINTED so many (David Creator)

In HINDSIGHT then a Sequel that is Similar to what i Proposed instead of Alien Covenant, and so more of a Alien Engineers Re-Visit to LV-223 could have Provide more Clues/Answers to the Xenomorph, could have given a Action/Horror that was more Action than Alien Covenant and i think Pleased the ALIEN/ALIENS Fans more.

THEN you could have had another Parallel Sequel that goes off with David and Dr Shaw and NOT have to be Shackled to the Answers of LV-223 or LV-426 and Explore the other Themes and Philosophy.

The LV-223 Movie could lead to Special Order 937 but also let the Fans go and WONDER... what other Worlds did the Engineers Attempt to Send those Egg Filled Ships too... or even Black Goo too.

so you then HAVE other Avenues for ALIEN Movies about Xenomorphs or other Horrors that does-not have to Connect to where David and Dr Shaw go Next..

You have then BRANCHED the Franchise into Expanding a ALIEN Franchise while you STILL have the Philosophical/Creators Spin Off that is NOT about ALIEN.

But what is DONE is DONE...

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jul-01-2020 10:12 AM

"Few expected to see xenomorphs in Prometheus. Those who followed the process of making the film knew that there would be no xeno"

I see the Good Point... but we have to remember only a SMALL % of the Box Office takings would be from Fans who would Invest more time into Following the Movies Production and visit SITES like this.

"the film was advertised as "find the answers". It was even a slogan for a stand for Blu-ray discs six months after the release. There were no answers in the film. WTF?"

Have to Totally Agree with this..... they have been Misleading us.... i mean look at the Alien Covenant Poster with Engineers vs Xenomorphs......  WTF they playing at?

Trying to ROPE us into something thats NOT there, which is well NOT NICE of them ;)

"And in the end, the xenomorph is again to blame."

Some may, but i dont think the Xenomorph is to blame for the Pickle we are in NOW....  I also agree the Characters have NOT been too Good...

The Emphasis on David is maybe too much...

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

daliens

Jul-01-2020 10:20 AM

Leto

I think David is the most complex character of the franchise and he still has a lot to offer.

And I like a lot the good war movies.

What I don't like and don't want to see again is marines shooting aliens and generally any Cameron style Aliens, no matter how good are the special effects. 

In my humble opinion the best characters were in Alien3, Alien and Alien Covenant. The rest don't matter too much.

On the other hand, killing Newt, Hicks and Ripley in Alien3 was the best decision, like killing Shaw and the Engineers in Alien Covenant. I would have enjoyed, however to have explored more the Engineers' world and myths, but for that you don't need any living Engineer. Ask David.

Enjoy your popcorn!

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

daliens

Jul-01-2020 10:43 AM

Alien3 is more of a war movie than Aliens, although it had no fire arms.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

daliens

Jul-01-2020 10:49 AM

I forgot to add that Aliens has the most stupid soundtrack.

It should have been released on VHS only.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

Leto

Jul-01-2020 10:53 AM

>>>i mean look at the Alien Covenant Poster with Engineers vs Xenomorphs......  WTF they playing at?

Yeah! The poster promised us a mythical massacre. Add to this the footage from the filming with monumental stairs and charred engineers. But in the end - "Cabin in the woods."

 

>>>The Emphasis on David is maybe too much...

David is alright. Walter too. But other characters are neglected. Given that this is the second film in a row with this attitude to the characters, I would not be surprised if in the third film we got the Queen, which some scientist will try to stroke. xDDD

daliens

Jul-01-2020 11:00 AM

I would not be surprised if in the third film we got the Queen, which some scientist will try to stroke. xDDD

Isn't that what the fans of "the most recognizable film in the franchise" (quote BigDave) want?

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

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