About an article from the Escapist Magazine

Covenant is a smoother and more consistent film than Prometheus. It just works better, like a story.

But Prometheus has more inspiration and original ideas. It is a wonderful soil to begin to create.

And guess what?!

Alien: Engineers had both components! It was a smooth, consistent story with tons of new ideas and amazing inspiration from new discoveries.

I think Prometheus would have been better and smoother with most deleted scenes added and also adding the CGI Fifeld berserker scene.

AC might have been better if I hadn't seen some of the trailers and viral videos that probably made my expectations unrealistic. Those videos had more depth than the actual movie imo.

Both movies could have had better character development.

Leto Well, judging what the article says neither Alien Engineers nor Covenant is what Ridley Scott wanted to make.

The article brings up some good points, but ultimately feels like an opinion piece- which is ok I guess.

Here is the down and dirty. Prometheus would have been a fantastic sci fi movie if it would have been a stand alone movie with no connections, even aesthetically, to the Alienverse. Just my opinion.

Can we really know for sure dk what happened during 2012 and 2017, so of course it will be an opinion piece. I bring it up to have something interesting to talk about, on how much do find plausible that the author nailed.... 

And because I am interested to know what happened and I would give money to see a documentary about it... Talking about where the series should go next.

ignorantGuy I agree a documentary about that would be worth watching. No argument there. I would imagine that there would be heated interviews if key people even agreed to participate or might have gag orders from FOX/Disney or possibly RS. I would pay to see it as well. However, as much as I enjoy discussion/debate/speculation, I honestly would like to see the franchise shit or get off the pot. Little teases and rumors grow tiresome after a while, yes? Either confirm a continuation, or cut it off and let it die with dignity.

dk ... will the corona situation you won't a confirmation anytime soon. And if we go into a big economic crisis who knows if they would be willing to invest on franchise with diminishing returns.

I think it would be safe to assume that it is dead for the near future.

ignorantGuy Agree. Personally, I will stick with the Quadilogy and although I have the prequels, I probably will not ever watch them again. Last year's Alien Day's IGN shorts series are still worth watching as well.

I consider the series as done- but I still like to discuss and debate aspects of it. 

@dk, it’s a pity you won’t see the prequels again. I’ve seen Prometheus and Covenant countless times and - despite their faults - enjoy them hugely. I cannot say the same for the final movie of the quadrilogy, which I grudgingly watch every few years to keep my hand in!

I don’t think there’s any doubt that Prometheus & Covenant would be far worse movies had Ridley Scott not been onboard. My problem with Ridley is that he’s spread himself too thinly. With his executive producing roles he must spend morning, day and night overseeing his multitude of interests. That might be fun for him, but it’s a shame for us. When I contrast his rampant production promiscuity with, say, Stanley Kubrick, I find myself wondering where we’d be now if Ridley had spent his life differently, turning his genius toward making a few select movies. Almost without exception, Kubrick made a small number of truly outstanding works. Sure, he led a weird life verging on the antisocial, but he’s left us with a brilliant heritage. Ridley has left us “A Good Year” and “G.I. Jane”, to mention just two of his stonking turkeys.

The other side of the coin is studio interference. Kubrick was able to bat away the MGM suits, because his stature towered above each and every nervous executive. What a shame that Fox bent Scott to their will by forcing the Big Boy back into the frame at the end of Covenant. Still, in 2020 what can he do about that. Disney’s controlling hand will likely be as bad as the overarching dominance of Weyland-Yutani in years to come.

hox Sorry but I would not say RS is a genius, yes he has a very keen eye and can make movies very efficiently. You know what Kubrick did between movies? He stayed in the effin library to document himself in order to make his masterpiece movies. RS never did that ... he did not find Do android dream of .... interesting enough to finish the book. In all honesty a good part of Alien would like different weren't for 2001. And you know what, Blade Runner was not even the first movie to mix Noir with Sci-fi, that would be Alphaville.

Kubrick hated the Hollywood system, while RS is a good "businessman". He is definitely not a victim here.

I would like to know why do you consider GI Jane and A Good Year as his worse, as many of his movie on Metacritic are 50 or below. Are those not sadistic enough for your taste? 

Making decisions based mostly on emotions is not smart, you got to think things through to try to make the best out of the situation. You can not make people like a parody if you want your movie to be taken seriously because they are a big part of making it work. If the characters do not work you do not have a movie, to me it is as simple as that. They made their own bed and now we have what we have.

Covenant has less annoying characters but Prometheus looks better. On the other hand it is too much about the robots in Covenant and less so in Prometheus. I agree with DK about Prometheus on leaving out the Xeno Fifield and having less cut out scenes. The major problem with both of them is that they lack good characters while that was not a problem with 1, 2, and 3.

To me there is 1, 2, and 3, the rest do not really matter even if there are parts of them that are interesting to discuss. Even though they are not perfect at least they are not about robots and most of the characters are at least alright.

GI Jane is okay yes people have different tastes and there might be people that read this that react with "whaattt?????" but that is not a problem because art is subjective. I would probably rather watch that movie compared to Covenant, LOL. For now it seems that AC effed up the franchise and I would rather watch the short movies.

@ignorantguy, we will have to agree to disagree about Ridley Scott’s genius status. I would just point out that his “RidleyGram” storyboards are legendary in the business. Actors, who jump at the chance to work with him, are on record as describing him as a genius.

Kubrick’s behaviour that you mention is exactly my point. Kubrick hid himself away and focused on a small number of works to the exclusion of everything else. Scott has his fingers in too many pies in my opinion.

G. I. Jane: features the Razzie 1997 award for worst actress.

A Good Year: described as a comedy, but featuring very little in the way of humour. Tedious story.

I think its Important to Remember the Prequels where always like a Work in Progress, things Evolved and Changed..

It seemed that prior to Jon Spaights we was going to get another Movie that would have been about Humans Discovering Eggs and being Basically another ALIENS.

We then got to having a Plot about the Engineers, as it would give us something to relate to, rather than Discovering some ALIEN Race who would NOT be able to Communicate with Mankind, and so its then HOW do we get Humans to go to a Place where the Creator/Origins of the Xenomorph are if this Species are Totally ALIEN and then where do you go from that if you want a Sequel....

So the Engineers Plot came into play, which is a Interesting Bold Plot but somewhat a Double Edged Sword/Poisoned Chalice.  It appeared that RS was interested in Spaights Ideas and what became Alien Engineers, before SOMETHING had happened that lead to them DROPPING the Xenomorph and Answers...

Was this RS, was it Giler/Hill or someone else?

I think Regardless, what happened is that Ridley Scott agreed and felt that a Prequel does-not have to be Literal Connecting Prequel, its Good to keep some Mystery and we have seen the Xenomorph over and over and over and so to DROP them and Concentrate on the Space Jockey/Engineers and that Plot was something different.

To give us a Spin Off Franchise that would STEER AWAY from the First Movie... (ALIEN).

The Problem was that Prometheus and Especially the Cut we got, just NEVER cave enough Answers, some Fans expected to Learn more about the Xenomorph Origins and HOW/WHEN/WHY the Derelict and Cargo ended up on LV-426.

For some it was Disappointing that the ONLY kind of Action/Death scenes related to the Franchise came from Space Cobra Petting, and Trilobite Face Hugging/Deacon Chest Busting.  Where some Fans may feel that these just dont Compare to the Xenomorph and HOW do they exactly Connect?

The Majority of Deaths coming from a Angry Bald 7ft+ Humanoid Engineer, and a Toxic Avenger looking Mutated Human....  again nothing like Xenomorphs.

I dont think everyone expected Xenomorphs, but they would have wanted more Connections/Clues and something more Relatable that went around and Killed Folk!   And so it never meant we NEEDED a Xenomorph... something like the Neomorphs that then Killed say 4-6 People would have done.

I think some Fans read the Alien Engineers Draft and/or saw the Concepts and Felt that Prometheus lacked this Xenomorphy like Monsters.  With Alien Engineers we had TWO kinds of Face Hugger, and THREE kinds of Xenomorph like Organisms.

The Milburn Death and Engineers Death/Chest Buster just NEVER really matched what the Franchise had and Alien Engineers.

Prometheus had a Number of Flaws.... but the Studio had Considered that NOT having Xenomorph Related Monsters, or more Clues was what Disappointed Fans..

And so by the Time we get to Latter Drafts after Harper had left the Project we had came to a Literal Prequel Series that would had been a Few Movies that would introduce the Xenomorph, its Origins and Eventually Provided us the Answers to the Derelict/LV-426.

By Virtue of such a U-TURN and how do we get from Prometheus to ALIEN and the Derelict in a Chronological Order over another 2-3 Movies that would then take us to the Back Door of ALIEN and then HOW in that Time-Line (28 Years) were you would have to get from Prometheus to Alien while Covering the Xenomorph Origins and HOW/WHEN/WHY it ended up on LV-426 and have to Re-Introduce Humans...

Well these Necessary Plot Choices provided Many Pit Falls that is WHY with Alien Covenant it was a bit of a MESS.

I can explain the Pit Falls in another Post.

I would say that Giler/Hill likely wanted to continue with the David Arc, and Ridley Scott felt he was a Character they cant Scrap..... But the David Creator and Emphasis on him was NOT the only Problem, it made sense to where they wanted to Expand on the Bigger Themes...

The U-Turn to go and connect to ALIEN and then HOW do you introduce Humans... means that within a 2 Hour Movie you have to make Sacrifices.... Character Depth, Dr Shaw, The Engineers are all things that had to be Cut Down because there was TOO MUCH that had to be Set Up that to have more Depth of Characters, more about the Engineers and Dr Shaw would have required a Extra Hour....

Especially when the Emphasis is to GET to the Xenomorph but more so the Revelation about WHO had Created it...  And so Sacrificed had to be made, things Forced and Speed Up for the sakes of Pacing (Xenomorph Gestation/Growth Rates).

Regarding Ridley Scott....

I think he is one of the Best Directors well a Very Well known one, does that mean he is Great?  Nope, he has made some Great Movies and some NOT so Great Movies but then thats the same with Most Directors.

Kubrick is a bit different he released less, but he had spent more time on the Story... (from Concept to Completion)

Ridley Scott is mainly a Ideas Man... he then works with a Team to Flesh them into a Story, and then he will Tinker with that Story.  Ridley Scott is Very Efficient, he often allows Actors a lot of Freedom with the Character, he Gives Pointers, but he will allow them to do things for themselves and then Re-shoot if he is not pleased.

He is Very Practical and likes to have SETS and Props that allow the Actors to get more a Sense of the Scene and NOT rely on imagination... this can have its Drawbacks.. (Cost/Build Time).  But he is Very Efficient in the Directors Chair, with how many Cameras and Shots...

His Greatest Asset is Once the Sets/Props/Costumes are all Ready, he can go in and SHOOT a Movie very Quick compared to Many.   Sometimes this has some Pitfalls though and Errors/Oversights.

@BigDave "I can explain the Pit Falls in another Post." Sorry, but please don't. You usually write much but you repeat yourself so much that another repeat would not be necessary.

I find really hard to believe that the studios not wanted to have Xenos in Prometheus for quite a bunch of reasons:

1. Ridley himself said he would return to the franchise to explore the space jockey as that was not explored (going back to the 2000s). He was saying the beast is cooked till 2014 at least. Have you even read the article? Their argument is that AC a big FU to those who said that Prometheus is too "idiosyncratic".

2. The studios would have marketted Xeno merch much more easily that anything in Prometheus.

3. Lindelof was brought in by Ridley himself probably to expand the mysterious atmosphere.

Shaw did not need to die, as she could have functioned easily enough as Daniels and would have a more complicated history with David. And guess what Carlos Huante said she was still alive in the early drafts, hiding on the planet. They could have toned down the religious aspect if people complain about that. But she was killed off at the request of the new studio honchos, replaced with some that looks more like Ripley. Probably that she was cast also in the Harry Potter prequels helped a lot, as recognition for teenagers.

@ignorantGuy

The Prequels had gone through some Changes and i will agree that the Purpose of the Prequels was that as Ridley Scott had said, No One ever Answered who was the Big Guy in the Chair and WHY that Cargo.  They came up with the Engineers as the Space Jockey and then reached a point where they Actually Felt that you have seen the Xenomorph over and over, and while YES the Xenomorph was the ALIEN, like other Franchises, Once you Start to show that Beast/Bad Guy over and over it can become Repetitive and do Damage to Reputation of the Beast/Bad Guys Original Few Appearances, this applies to the likes of Freddy Freddy Krueger, Michael Myers, Jason Voorhees and you could say JAWS too etc.

As they had decided that the Xenomorph was just a Engineered Biological Warfare, they had decided that maybe you dont need the Xenomorph, you can leave ALIEN having a Mystery and Explore the Space Jockey/Engineers as something NEW where you would have a SEPARATE kind of Franchise where its connected to ALIEN by Virtue of the Xenomorph being a Biological Weapon that had arisen from the Experiments etc on LV-223.

This was somewhat a ERROR on their Part... they should have made more of a Xenomorph Connection/Answers and had more of a Monster that was similar so they could CLOSE the Door to ALIEN and then go off with the Engineers to Explore a Spin Off...  But ALAS...

I Certainly can see the Potential in the Big F-U....  because we did see RS say "if they want Aliens i will give them $"£%£$ Aliens" and he had mentioned he felt the Beast was Cooked.   To me this seemed that RS was not a Massive Fan of going back to the Xenomorph as he maybe Felt there was NOT a lot you can continue with apart from giving the Origins and HOW/WHEN/WHY those Eggs got onto the Derelict.  It seemed he was Frustrated that he could not have Continued with a Prometheus 2 that would STEER AWAY from ALIEN.

He had mentioned that he Felt the Fans wanted those Answers and wanted the Xenomorph... and so it seems he went with the U-Turn to give us a Direct Prequel Series... but his Comments such as they want £!"$£"% Aliens does seem he felt this was NOT what he wanted.... so indeed the David as the Creator could have been the Ultimate F-U to the Fans... well those he felt wanted to see Xenomorphs, and he maybe Blamed this on him not being allowed to go with his Prometheus 2 ideas..

Could the Failure of a movie with Xenomorphs be used by RS to go and say "see if gave you ALIENS and this Movie STILL did-not do as well as Prometheus" he had said plans for a AC sequel would NOT be about the Xenomorph.

A Frustrating thing about RS is he has a Habit of Contradicting himself.....  even over a Period of Months... so we had... the Beast is Cooked, he was Ahead of the Curve with Prometheus.... to it has to be about HIM (we can assume the ALIEN/Xenomorph) but you have to Evolve Him, and then also to mentioning about its about the ALIEN and you have to Evolve it and look at other ways of Procreation.  (i agree with that as its a case of how many times can you make Movie about Queen => Egg => Xenomorph?).

So we do get some Conflicting Comments by RS, i think overall he saw more Scope with Expanding the Franchise beyond our Queen and Eggs.

But Certainly this is WHAT the Franchise was best known for... it was what is more Marketable i think the PROBLEM came from RS wanting to Explore the other Themes and Plot about Prometheus, Creation and Engineers than to go back to what in effect was just some Horrid Organism that had came from Experiments on LV-223.

But a lot of Fans see Prometheus as being a ALIEN movie and so would expect that it HAS to connect to the Xenomorphs... when it seems the Plan they had was to have it become a SPIN-OFF where Prometheus was the Connecting Tissue to ALIEN.

The Problem being that it was NOT enough of a Connection to then Close the Door to ALIEN... and Explore something else without the Shackles of the Franchise.

Regarding the Pickle that was the 2nd Prequel...

It simply was a MISTAKE in trying to give the Xenomorph and a Direct Prequel, while trying to Carry some of Prometheus with it!

In Hindsight a 2nd Mission to LV-223 could have given the Fans more of a ALIEN ENGINEERS with more Clues/Answers and the Xenomorph or very close with clues to indicate HOW/WHERE/WHEN the Xenomorph came to be.

And then after THIS we could have seen Ridley Scott go with his Prometheus 2 and Steer Away from ALIEN.

Before i continue i will add that the Process of a Prometheus 2 alone was Tricky, they was having a HARD time to come up with a Prometheus 2.... before after 2014 a Change in Direction somewhat lead to what was the Work that Dante Harper had begun that Evolved to Alien Covenant.

By deciding to give us HOW/WHEN/WHY the Xenomorph Origins had begun, and having this Story take place on Planet 4 with Davids Experiments over 10 years, then Needing some more Humans to Arrive to that Planet meant they had to Devise a Plot for HOW any Humans would Arrive at this Place where David had been Stranded.

If we look at AC, if we was to add more Scenes about the Engineers, have Dr Shaw alive, even as Flash Backs never mind she gets Rescued or Rescues the Covenant Crew, then these would ADD to the Theatrical Run Time.... so some Sacrifices had to be made...

Its a Shame as on ONE hand i would imagine those who liked Prometheus would have wanted to see more about the Engineers and Dr Shaw, rather than be Centered around David, i think those who wanted the Xenomorph and Origins again would NOT have wanted to see it Created and Centered around David likewise.

So its a Pickle... but indeed it could have been a BIG F-U to those who RS and Few others in Charge felt had OBJECTED to a Prometheus 2....  so in effect a they want £"$"£% Xenmorphs we will give them some... and then they would be saying... you see sometimes its not best to GET what you ask for.... and pull the NOW maybe you see somethings are best left a Mystery...

The SAD thing is they could have given more about the Engineers, and Dr Shaw and still have incoming Humans.. and give few Clues to the Xenomorph but still keep the David Creator Arc... via him Acknowledging the Xenomorph in the Past and announcing he was CREATING something that Surpasses it... and give us something that was more like the Ultramorph...

Thus keeping some Mystery with the Xenomorph, and keeping its Creation and Origins as Ancient and Certainly NOT by David but ALAS...

BigDave Sorry about my previous comment I might have been too harsh.

Be eliminating Daniels you could have gain time by not showing her morning the lost of her bf/husband on the Covenant (as Shaw did that already). You could have reduce the number of neomorph infections to one. You could have removed the robot Kung-fu. You could have removed the last part on the Covenant almost completely. There were ways to makes bring back Shaw, very easily IMHO. But their objective was clearly to distance themselves from Prometheus, and willingly say a FU to those who like the movie for other reasons than David. 

>>>Could the Failure of a movie with Xenomorphs be used by RS to go and say "see if gave you ALIENS and this Movie STILL did-not do as well as Prometheus" he had said plans for a AC sequel would NOT be about the Xenomorph.

So, RS intentionally sabotaged Alien: Covenant? Because he was offended by the reaction to Prometheus? Or because he was forced to add xenomorphs to the story?

Wow, just WOW! This is what I call - REVELATION!

And I like (every time) how you attack the poor xenomorph and blame for everything. Of course, the fans too - the angry Alien fans wants to rip and tear, because Prometheus didn't have Alien. But tactfully and deftly avoiding the main reason - irrational characters.

Of course, neither you, nor RS, nor FOX didn't see and didn't hear thousands parodies only about the behavior of the characters. It's all xeno and alien fans who want Ripley and Queen.

I don’t want to seem rude, I just want to show all the absurdity of your logic.

And, if Ridley wanted to explore Engineers, why does he avoid them throughout the film?

The truth is that AC is a film that Prometheus supposed to be. With Engineer instead of David of course.

Leto Do you understand that Ridley's main backer at Fox during the making of Prometheus was the CEO Tom Rothman. But he was gone in September of 2012. The new leadership did not want to continue on the same path and imposed changes upon RS. Like the in 2014 there were articles that 14 scripts for Prometheus were refused, Rapace was removed, the composer Marc Streitenfeld who collaborated with RS on 5 movies was also removed. Then there was also Alien 5.

To cut the long story short nobody said that RS sabotage his movie, but that he is spiteful of the situation and the movie shows. He choose to still do it because he received the same budget as Prometheus and still be at the helm of the Franchise. And he seems to be pretty content with David, with whom he identifies.

What those hundreds of parodies did not get and complain about irrational characters, is that every character displays hubris in his own way, they think they know better but they don't. People seem to not accept that not every story is a power fantasy, characters can be parodies of attitudes. But probably audiences cannot see or are not comfortable with their own potential for screwing up major time in such situation.