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About an article from the Escapist Magazine

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ignorantGuy

Apr-10-2020 7:58 AM

As news are rare nowadays  I would like to link https://www.escapistmagazine.com/v2/alien-covenant-offers-alien-prequel-bursting-from-prometheus-sequel/.

The article argues that Covenant is practically an f*** you to the one that hated Prometheus. While this is not a new theory by any stretch (confirmed even by the most honest movie poster ever in movie history in which the Alien franchise kills of the potential Prometheus franchise), it's no wonder the humans are dumb/undeveloped because they are a parody. 

And if this is the case, was there ever gonna be a sequel or was it all BS? This 2012-2017 period should really make for a great documentary, probably the most interesting that the Alien Franchise could produce now. 

33 Responses to About an article from the Escapist Magazine

Leto

Apr-10-2020 11:27 AM

Covenant is a smoother and more consistent film than Prometheus. It just works better, like a story.

But Prometheus has more inspiration and original ideas. It is a wonderful soil to begin to create.

And guess what?!

Alien: Engineers had both components! It was a smooth, consistent story with tons of new ideas and amazing inspiration from new discoveries.

dk

Apr-10-2020 1:49 PM

I think Prometheus would have been better and smoother with most deleted scenes added and also adding the CGI Fifeld berserker scene.

AC might have been better if I hadn't seen some of the trailers and viral videos that probably made my expectations unrealistic. Those videos had more depth than the actual movie imo.

Both movies could have had better character development.

ignorantGuy

Apr-10-2020 5:45 PM

Leto Well, judging what the article says neither Alien Engineers nor Covenant is what Ridley Scott wanted to make.

dk

Apr-10-2020 8:10 PM

The article brings up some good points, but ultimately feels like an opinion piece- which is ok I guess.

Here is the down and dirty. Prometheus would have been a fantastic sci fi movie if it would have been a stand alone movie with no connections, even aesthetically, to the Alienverse. Just my opinion.

ignorantGuy

Apr-10-2020 10:14 PM

Can we really know for sure dk what happened during 2012 and 2017, so of course it will be an opinion piece. I bring it up to have something interesting to talk about, on how much do find plausible that the author nailed.... 

And because I am interested to know what happened and I would give money to see a documentary about it... Talking about where the series should go next.

dk

Apr-10-2020 11:18 PM

ignorantGuy I agree a documentary about that would be worth watching. No argument there. I would imagine that there would be heated interviews if key people even agreed to participate or might have gag orders from FOX/Disney or possibly RS. I would pay to see it as well. However, as much as I enjoy discussion/debate/speculation, I honestly would like to see the franchise shit or get off the pot. Little teases and rumors grow tiresome after a while, yes? Either confirm a continuation, or cut it off and let it die with dignity.

ignorantGuy

Apr-10-2020 11:38 PM

dk ... will the corona situation you won't a confirmation anytime soon. And if we go into a big economic crisis who knows if they would be willing to invest on franchise with diminishing returns.

I think it would be safe to assume that it is dead for the near future.

dk

Apr-11-2020 12:15 AM

ignorantGuy Agree. Personally, I will stick with the Quadilogy and although I have the prequels, I probably will not ever watch them again. Last year's Alien Day's IGN shorts series are still worth watching as well.

I consider the series as done- but I still like to discuss and debate aspects of it. 

hox

Apr-11-2020 1:03 AM

@dk, it’s a pity you won’t see the prequels again. I’ve seen Prometheus and Covenant countless times and - despite their faults - enjoy them hugely. I cannot say the same for the final movie of the quadrilogy, which I grudgingly watch every few years to keep my hand in!

I don’t think there’s any doubt that Prometheus & Covenant would be far worse movies had Ridley Scott not been onboard. My problem with Ridley is that he’s spread himself too thinly. With his executive producing roles he must spend morning, day and night overseeing his multitude of interests. That might be fun for him, but it’s a shame for us. When I contrast his rampant production promiscuity with, say, Stanley Kubrick, I find myself wondering where we’d be now if Ridley had spent his life differently, turning his genius toward making a few select movies. Almost without exception, Kubrick made a small number of truly outstanding works. Sure, he led a weird life verging on the antisocial, but he’s left us with a brilliant heritage. Ridley has left us “A Good Year” and “G.I. Jane”, to mention just two of his stonking turkeys.

The other side of the coin is studio interference. Kubrick was able to bat away the MGM suits, because his stature towered above each and every nervous executive. What a shame that Fox bent Scott to their will by forcing the Big Boy back into the frame at the end of Covenant. Still, in 2020 what can he do about that. Disney’s controlling hand will likely be as bad as the overarching dominance of Weyland-Yutani in years to come.

ignorantGuy

Apr-11-2020 3:52 AM

hox Sorry but I would not say RS is a genius, yes he has a very keen eye and can make movies very efficiently. You know what Kubrick did between movies? He stayed in the effin library to document himself in order to make his masterpiece movies. RS never did that ... he did not find Do android dream of .... interesting enough to finish the book. In all honesty a good part of Alien would like different weren't for 2001. And you know what, Blade Runner was not even the first movie to mix Noir with Sci-fi, that would be Alphaville.

Kubrick hated the Hollywood system, while RS is a good "businessman". He is definitely not a victim here.

I would like to know why do you consider GI Jane and A Good Year as his worse, as many of his movie on Metacritic are 50 or below. Are those not sadistic enough for your taste? 

Thoughts_Dreams

Apr-11-2020 6:48 AM

Making decisions based mostly on emotions is not smart, you got to think things through to try to make the best out of the situation. You can not make people like a parody if you want your movie to be taken seriously because they are a big part of making it work. If the characters do not work you do not have a movie, to me it is as simple as that. They made their own bed and now we have what we have.

Covenant has less annoying characters but Prometheus looks better. On the other hand it is too much about the robots in Covenant and less so in Prometheus. I agree with DK about Prometheus on leaving out the Xeno Fifield and having less cut out scenes. The major problem with both of them is that they lack good characters while that was not a problem with 1, 2, and 3.

To me there is 1, 2, and 3, the rest do not really matter even if there are parts of them that are interesting to discuss. Even though they are not perfect at least they are not about robots and most of the characters are at least alright.

GI Jane is okay yes people have different tastes and there might be people that read this that react with "whaattt?????" but that is not a problem because art is subjective. I would probably rather watch that movie compared to Covenant, LOL. For now it seems that AC effed up the franchise and I would rather watch the short movies.

hox

Apr-12-2020 2:15 AM

@ignorantguy, we will have to agree to disagree about Ridley Scott’s genius status. I would just point out that his “RidleyGram” storyboards are legendary in the business. Actors, who jump at the chance to work with him, are on record as describing him as a genius.

Kubrick’s behaviour that you mention is exactly my point. Kubrick hid himself away and focused on a small number of works to the exclusion of everything else. Scott has his fingers in too many pies in my opinion.

G. I. Jane: features the Razzie 1997 award for worst actress.

A Good Year: described as a comedy, but featuring very little in the way of humour. Tedious story.

BigDave

Apr-13-2020 6:09 PM

I think its Important to Remember the Prequels where always like a Work in Progress, things Evolved and Changed..

It seemed that prior to Jon Spaights we was going to get another Movie that would have been about Humans Discovering Eggs and being Basically another ALIENS.

We then got to having a Plot about the Engineers, as it would give us something to relate to, rather than Discovering some ALIEN Race who would NOT be able to Communicate with Mankind, and so its then HOW do we get Humans to go to a Place where the Creator/Origins of the Xenomorph are if this Species are Totally ALIEN and then where do you go from that if you want a Sequel....

So the Engineers Plot came into play, which is a Interesting Bold Plot but somewhat a Double Edged Sword/Poisoned Chalice.  It appeared that RS was interested in Spaights Ideas and what became Alien Engineers, before SOMETHING had happened that lead to them DROPPING the Xenomorph and Answers...

Was this RS, was it Giler/Hill or someone else?

I think Regardless, what happened is that Ridley Scott agreed and felt that a Prequel does-not have to be Literal Connecting Prequel, its Good to keep some Mystery and we have seen the Xenomorph over and over and over and so to DROP them and Concentrate on the Space Jockey/Engineers and that Plot was something different.

To give us a Spin Off Franchise that would STEER AWAY from the First Movie... (ALIEN).

The Problem was that Prometheus and Especially the Cut we got, just NEVER cave enough Answers, some Fans expected to Learn more about the Xenomorph Origins and HOW/WHEN/WHY the Derelict and Cargo ended up on LV-426.

For some it was Disappointing that the ONLY kind of Action/Death scenes related to the Franchise came from Space Cobra Petting, and Trilobite Face Hugging/Deacon Chest Busting.  Where some Fans may feel that these just dont Compare to the Xenomorph and HOW do they exactly Connect?

The Majority of Deaths coming from a Angry Bald 7ft+ Humanoid Engineer, and a Toxic Avenger looking Mutated Human....  again nothing like Xenomorphs.

I dont think everyone expected Xenomorphs, but they would have wanted more Connections/Clues and something more Relatable that went around and Killed Folk!   And so it never meant we NEEDED a Xenomorph... something like the Neomorphs that then Killed say 4-6 People would have done.

I think some Fans read the Alien Engineers Draft and/or saw the Concepts and Felt that Prometheus lacked this Xenomorphy like Monsters.  With Alien Engineers we had TWO kinds of Face Hugger, and THREE kinds of Xenomorph like Organisms.

The Milburn Death and Engineers Death/Chest Buster just NEVER really matched what the Franchise had and Alien Engineers.

Prometheus had a Number of Flaws.... but the Studio had Considered that NOT having Xenomorph Related Monsters, or more Clues was what Disappointed Fans..

And so by the Time we get to Latter Drafts after Harper had left the Project we had came to a Literal Prequel Series that would had been a Few Movies that would introduce the Xenomorph, its Origins and Eventually Provided us the Answers to the Derelict/LV-426.

By Virtue of such a U-TURN and how do we get from Prometheus to ALIEN and the Derelict in a Chronological Order over another 2-3 Movies that would then take us to the Back Door of ALIEN and then HOW in that Time-Line (28 Years) were you would have to get from Prometheus to Alien while Covering the Xenomorph Origins and HOW/WHEN/WHY it ended up on LV-426 and have to Re-Introduce Humans...

Well these Necessary Plot Choices provided Many Pit Falls that is WHY with Alien Covenant it was a bit of a MESS.

I can explain the Pit Falls in another Post.

I would say that Giler/Hill likely wanted to continue with the David Arc, and Ridley Scott felt he was a Character they cant Scrap..... But the David Creator and Emphasis on him was NOT the only Problem, it made sense to where they wanted to Expand on the Bigger Themes...

The U-Turn to go and connect to ALIEN and then HOW do you introduce Humans... means that within a 2 Hour Movie you have to make Sacrifices.... Character Depth, Dr Shaw, The Engineers are all things that had to be Cut Down because there was TOO MUCH that had to be Set Up that to have more Depth of Characters, more about the Engineers and Dr Shaw would have required a Extra Hour....

Especially when the Emphasis is to GET to the Xenomorph but more so the Revelation about WHO had Created it...  And so Sacrificed had to be made, things Forced and Speed Up for the sakes of Pacing (Xenomorph Gestation/Growth Rates).

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Apr-13-2020 6:23 PM

Regarding Ridley Scott....

I think he is one of the Best Directors well a Very Well known one, does that mean he is GreatNope, he has made some Great Movies and some NOT so Great Movies but then thats the same with Most Directors.

Kubrick is a bit different he released less, but he had spent more time on the Story... (from Concept to Completion)

Ridley Scott is mainly a Ideas Man... he then works with a Team to Flesh them into a Story, and then he will Tinker with that StoryRidley Scott is Very Efficient, he often allows Actors a lot of Freedom with the Character, he Gives Pointers, but he will allow them to do things for themselves and then Re-shoot if he is not pleased.

He is Very Practical and likes to have SETS and Props that allow the Actors to get more a Sense of the Scene and NOT rely on imagination... this can have its Drawbacks.. (Cost/Build Time).  But he is Very Efficient in the Directors Chair, with how many Cameras and Shots...

His Greatest Asset is Once the Sets/Props/Costumes are all Ready, he can go in and SHOOT a Movie very Quick compared to Many.   Sometimes this has some Pitfalls though and Errors/Oversights.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ignorantGuy

Apr-14-2020 2:26 AM

@BigDave "I can explain the Pit Falls in another Post." Sorry, but please don't. You usually write much but you repeat yourself so much that another repeat would not be necessary.

I find really hard to believe that the studios not wanted to have Xenos in Prometheus for quite a bunch of reasons:

1. Ridley himself said he would return to the franchise to explore the space jockey as that was not explored (going back to the 2000s). He was saying the beast is cooked till 2014 at least. Have you even read the article? Their argument is that AC a big FU to those who said that Prometheus is too "idiosyncratic".

2. The studios would have marketted Xeno merch much more easily that anything in Prometheus.

3. Lindelof was brought in by Ridley himself probably to expand the mysterious atmosphere.

Shaw did not need to die, as she could have functioned easily enough as Daniels and would have a more complicated history with David. And guess what Carlos Huante said she was still alive in the early drafts, hiding on the planet. They could have toned down the religious aspect if people complain about that. But she was killed off at the request of the new studio honchos, replaced with some that looks more like Ripley. Probably that she was cast also in the Harry Potter prequels helped a lot, as recognition for teenagers.

BigDave

Apr-14-2020 4:52 PM

@ignorantGuy

The Prequels had gone through some Changes and i will agree that the Purpose of the Prequels was that as Ridley Scott had said, No One ever Answered who was the Big Guy in the Chair and WHY that Cargo.  They came up with the Engineers as the Space Jockey and then reached a point where they Actually Felt that you have seen the Xenomorph over and over, and while YES the Xenomorph was the ALIEN, like other Franchises, Once you Start to show that Beast/Bad Guy over and over it can become Repetitive and do Damage to Reputation of the Beast/Bad Guys Original Few Appearances, this applies to the likes of Freddy Freddy Krueger, Michael Myers, Jason Voorhees and you could say JAWS too etc.

As they had decided that the Xenomorph was just a Engineered Biological Warfare, they had decided that maybe you dont need the Xenomorph, you can leave ALIEN having a Mystery and Explore the Space Jockey/Engineers as something NEW where you would have a SEPARATE kind of Franchise where its connected to ALIEN by Virtue of the Xenomorph being a Biological Weapon that had arisen from the Experiments etc on LV-223.

This was somewhat a ERROR on their Part... they should have made more of a Xenomorph Connection/Answers and had more of a Monster that was similar so they could CLOSE the Door to ALIEN and then go off with the Engineers to Explore a Spin Off...  But ALAS...

I Certainly can see the Potential in the Big F-U....  because we did see RS say "if they want Aliens i will give them $"£%£$ Aliens" and he had mentioned he felt the Beast was Cooked.   To me this seemed that RS was not a Massive Fan of going back to the Xenomorph as he maybe Felt there was NOT a lot you can continue with apart from giving the Origins and HOW/WHEN/WHY those Eggs got onto the Derelict.  It seemed he was Frustrated that he could not have Continued with a Prometheus 2 that would STEER AWAY from ALIEN.

He had mentioned that he Felt the Fans wanted those Answers and wanted the Xenomorph... and so it seems he went with the U-Turn to give us a Direct Prequel Series... but his Comments such as they want £!"$£"% Aliens does seem he felt this was NOT what he wanted.... so indeed the David as the Creator could have been the Ultimate F-U to the Fans... well those he felt wanted to see Xenomorphs, and he maybe Blamed this on him not being allowed to go with his Prometheus 2 ideas..

Could the Failure of a movie with Xenomorphs be used by RS to go and say "see if gave you ALIENS and this Movie STILL did-not do as well as Prometheus" he had said plans for a AC sequel would NOT be about the Xenomorph.

A Frustrating thing about RS is he has a Habit of Contradicting himself.....  even over a Period of Months... so we had... the Beast is Cooked, he was Ahead of the Curve with Prometheus.... to it has to be about HIM (we can assume the ALIEN/Xenomorph) but you have to Evolve Him, and then also to mentioning about its about the ALIEN and you have to Evolve it and look at other ways of Procreation.  (i agree with that as its a case of how many times can you make Movie about Queen => Egg => Xenomorph?).

So we do get some Conflicting Comments by RS, i think overall he saw more Scope with Expanding the Franchise beyond our Queen and Eggs.

But Certainly this is WHAT the Franchise was best known for... it was what is more Marketable i think the PROBLEM came from RS wanting to Explore the other Themes and Plot about Prometheus, Creation and Engineers than to go back to what in effect was just some Horrid Organism that had came from Experiments on LV-223.

But a lot of Fans see Prometheus as being a ALIEN movie and so would expect that it HAS to connect to the Xenomorphs... when it seems the Plan they had was to have it become a SPIN-OFF where Prometheus was the Connecting Tissue to ALIEN.

The Problem being that it was NOT enough of a Connection to then Close the Door to ALIEN... and Explore something else without the Shackles of the Franchise.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Apr-14-2020 5:09 PM

Regarding the Pickle that was the 2nd Prequel...

It simply was a MISTAKE in trying to give the Xenomorph and a Direct Prequel, while trying to Carry some of Prometheus with it!

In Hindsight a 2nd Mission to LV-223 could have given the Fans more of a ALIEN ENGINEERS with more Clues/Answers and the Xenomorph or very close with clues to indicate HOW/WHERE/WHEN the Xenomorph came to be.

And then after THIS we could have seen Ridley Scott go with his Prometheus 2 and Steer Away from ALIEN.

Before i continue i will add that the Process of a Prometheus 2 alone was Tricky, they was having a HARD time to come up with a Prometheus 2.... before after 2014 a Change in Direction somewhat lead to what was the Work that Dante Harper had begun that Evolved to Alien Covenant.

By deciding to give us HOW/WHEN/WHY the Xenomorph Origins had begun, and having this Story take place on Planet 4 with Davids Experiments over 10 years, then Needing some more Humans to Arrive to that Planet meant they had to Devise a Plot for HOW any Humans would Arrive at this Place where David had been Stranded.

If we look at AC, if we was to add more Scenes about the Engineers, have Dr Shaw alive, even as Flash Backs never mind she gets Rescued or Rescues the Covenant Crew, then these would ADD to the Theatrical Run Time.... so some Sacrifices had to be made...

Its a Shame as on ONE hand i would imagine those who liked Prometheus would have wanted to see more about the Engineers and Dr Shaw, rather than be Centered around David, i think those who wanted the Xenomorph and Origins again would NOT have wanted to see it Created and Centered around David likewise.

So its a Pickle... but indeed it could have been a BIG F-U to those who RS and Few others in Charge felt had OBJECTED to a Prometheus 2....  so in effect a they want £"$"£% Xenmorphs we will give them some... and then they would be saying... you see sometimes its not best to GET what you ask for.... and pull the NOW maybe you see somethings are best left a Mystery...

The SAD thing is they could have given more about the Engineers, and Dr Shaw and still have incoming Humans.. and give few Clues to the Xenomorph but still keep the David Creator Arc... via him Acknowledging the Xenomorph in the Past and announcing he was CREATING something that Surpasses it... and give us something that was more like the Ultramorph...

Thus keeping some Mystery with the Xenomorph, and keeping its Creation and Origins as Ancient and Certainly NOT by David but ALAS...

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ignorantGuy

Apr-14-2020 10:34 PM

BigDave Sorry about my previous comment I might have been too harsh.

Be eliminating Daniels you could have gain time by not showing her morning the lost of her bf/husband on the Covenant (as Shaw did that already). You could have reduce the number of neomorph infections to one. You could have removed the robot Kung-fu. You could have removed the last part on the Covenant almost completely. There were ways to makes bring back Shaw, very easily IMHO. But their objective was clearly to distance themselves from Prometheus, and willingly say a FU to those who like the movie for other reasons than David. 

Leto

Apr-15-2020 4:04 AM

>>>Could the Failure of a movie with Xenomorphs be used by RS to go and say "see if gave you ALIENS and this Movie STILL did-not do as well as Prometheus" he had said plans for a AC sequel would NOT be about the Xenomorph.

So, RS intentionally sabotaged Alien: Covenant? Because he was offended by the reaction to Prometheus? Or because he was forced to add xenomorphs to the story?

Wow, just WOW! This is what I call - REVELATION!

 

And I like (every time) how you attack the poor xenomorph and blame for everything. Of course, the fans too - the angry Alien fans wants to rip and tear, because Prometheus didn't have Alien. But tactfully and deftly avoiding the main reason - irrational characters.

Of course, neither you, nor RS, nor FOX didn't see and didn't hear thousands parodies only about the behavior of the characters. It's all xeno and alien fans who want Ripley and Queen.

I don’t want to seem rude, I just want to show all the absurdity of your logic.

 

And, if Ridley wanted to explore Engineers, why does he avoid them throughout the film?

 

The truth is that AC is a film that Prometheus supposed to be. With Engineer instead of David of course.

 

ignorantGuy

Apr-15-2020 5:24 AM

Leto Do you understand that Ridley's main backer at Fox during the making of Prometheus was the CEO Tom Rothman. But he was gone in September of 2012. The new leadership did not want to continue on the same path and imposed changes upon RS. Like the in 2014 there were articles that 14 scripts for Prometheus were refused, Rapace was removed, the composer Marc Streitenfeld who collaborated with RS on 5 movies was also removed. Then there was also Alien 5.

To cut the long story short nobody said that RS sabotage his movie, but that he is spiteful of the situation and the movie shows. He choose to still do it because he received the same budget as Prometheus and still be at the helm of the Franchise. And he seems to be pretty content with David, with whom he identifies.

What those hundreds of parodies did not get and complain about irrational characters, is that every character displays hubris in his own way, they think they know better but they don't. People seem to not accept that not every story is a power fantasy, characters can be parodies of attitudes. But probably audiences cannot see or are not comfortable with their own potential for screwing up major time in such situation.

Leto

Apr-15-2020 6:03 AM

ignorantGuy

You miss the point. I mentioned parodies and irrational characters as reasons for criticizing Prometheus, instead of some lack of xenomorph.

BigDave

Apr-15-2020 6:55 AM

"BigDave Sorry about my previous comment I might have been too harsh."

Not to Worry, i never thought it was Harsh at all ;)

Certainly some Scenes could have been CUT to make way for others... Kung Fu David ha ha.. love it.  I was kind of thinking WHAT if a Predator Turned up after Walter was First Taken Out?    Maybe THIS?

"I don’t want to seem rude, I just want to show all the absurdity of your logic"

Who knows... thats why i had Suggested that it seemed in part that RS was not a Fan of the Xenomorph anymore, but then he Contradicts himself.

The Article in the OT seems to indicate maybe Alien Covenant was kind of a Sabotage in Reaction to Fans not wanting to see a Prometheus 2.

It is NOT me, as far as my Opinion, but i was just looking at some of the Comments by RS that they (those who have the SAY in the Franchise) seemed to think that Fans wanted the Xenomorph and Answers...

Prometheus had other complaints beyond the Xenomorph well lack of, and Certainly there was more Flaws, and by adding the Xenomorph alone would not have been the Answer, we have the Xenomorph in AC and it is Bugged by other Problems....   RS seemed to indicate about being ahead of the Curve that maybe AC proved you can add the Xenomorph and its NEVER saved the Movie.

Well the reasons for AC not being so good is NOT down to the Xenomorph ;)

I dont Hate the Xenomorph i think that it has been Shown a lot in Comics, Games and Movies that i think to make another 2-3 Movies that center around it would be HARD to do, because you can END UP doing Damage to the Reputation of the Iconic Beast...  we see the same effect with the Countless Jaws Sequels and Knock Offs..... Giant Killer Sharks just became Meh!

As in the other Topic... i gave 3 Options to how you look at the Origins... depending on the Revelation of its Origins, has a Impact on the Xenomorph.   It seemed the idea was they are merely a Created Bio-Weapon... which Limits the Xenomorph a bit.

So i fully understood WHY it was that RS felt the Need to Explore the Space Jockey with the Engineer/Humanity Plot

As YES once you gave the Origins to the Xenomorph and the Derelict Event, its a case of what Next? Especially when the Revelations are the Xenomorph is merely something that was Created to Destroy for the Purpose of getting Rid of Pesky Humanoids.

I think that AC was a Massive Error!

I think that reducing the Answers to the Xenomorph in Prometheus and not having a Substitute was a Error.

In Hindsight maybe NOT being Alieny enough was a Problem for Prometheus, only as FAR as Fans would have expected that Prometheus would have eventually given us a Path to the Xenomorph.  The First Movie needed some more Clarity to the Xenomorph and to introduce something similar, even as far as a Neomorph which is similar.   Then they could have Closed the Door to ALIEN and gone and Explored the Journey Dr Shaw goes on for Answers from our Would be Creators... which i think eventually you would have to Introduce some Horrors that have some Degree of Relation to the Black Goo.

But we got Alien Covenant... which seemed to Brush Dr Shaw and the Engineers under the Carpet in Favor more so about showing the Pitfalls of Sub-Creation/Rebellion through the Eyes of David.  The Xenomorph being some kind of Fan-Service... and a Big F-U ha ha how you feel now my King David is the Creator!   As far as WHO was the One who Rubber Stamped this Plot Twist.

so it Never Felt like a Origins Story, as far as a Emphasis on the Xenomorph, it seemed it was just OK i am Bored, lets Evolve this Neomorph to make a Killing Machine because "The Devil's Hands Are Idle Playthings"

Alien Covenant did-not need a Xenomorph... it should have had the Eggs and ONE person infected with something that was Slightly Different that gets on the Ship...  you have David reveal that he Discovered the Engineers had Discovered a Organism and attempted Various Hybrids of this, they had Settled and Perfected it but could NOT control this Perfection so it was left Stranded on a Near by Moon, where they went back to the Drawing Board and again became Foul to their Experiments.

Then Reveal that David saw Great Potential in ONE of their Creations they abandoned, and that he had Reverse Engineered his OWN more Perfect Version of it that he thinks he can Control.

So you have a Face Hugger thats a little Different, then the Money Shot is something like the image above, and then by Virtue of Clues to HOW it was that David created that, you could then know the Engineers used a similar path to Create the Xenomorph on LV-426

To Continue the with a Sequel... you would unleash more of these Horrors, the Engineers Rock Up... Destroy all on where ever David takes his Experiments, they Destroy LV-223 so that NO-ONE can obtain these Horrors...

But you then have to have these Engineers Fail to Eradicate the Derelict on LV-426..... The Company then wants to go to LV-426 because they know they can use those Eggs as a Basis to try and Perfect the Organism as David had done so.

This is where/when Special Order 937 comes into Play and the Rest is History...

"The truth is that AC is a film that Prometheus supposed to be. With Engineer instead of David of course."

I will agree that LV-223 was what David was doing on Planet 4 but they made it too ambiguous.  And so indeed that Ambiguity they decided to Explain but now through the Hands of David and NOT the Engineers.

It was the Engineers doing similar Thousands of Years ago, just it was not so Obvious to many... Ridley Scott at that Time even Explained the Xenomorph as such.. another Experiment that had Got out of Control and Evolved...

It was a mistake to then U-Turn that to David being the Creator... having him go onto Create his Own Variant that was more Different than the AC Xenomorph would have Fitted the Theme better and NOT done Damage to the Original.

I dont think every Fan wanted Xenomorphs.... they wanted more Clues to their Origins but would have been Satisfied (for most part) at something that was Similar...

as with Prometheus all we had was a Space Cobra, a Toxic Avenger Fifield....  the Closest we got to ALIEN was the Trilobite and Deacon.   Which in effect would have been like ALIEN coming to a End after Kane had gave Birth to his Son!

Hammerpede planting a Seed in Milburn that then produced a Brutal Birth and Organism like the Neomorph that then Killed 2-3 People... and a Fifield that was FAR more Xenomorph Hybrid would have given more of a Alieny Fix.

Alien Covenant with more about the Neomorph and then ONLY seeing ONE infected person with a Face Hugger get to the Covenant and Chest Burst something that is more Xenomorph than a Neomorph and Deacon but still NOT a Traditional Xenomorph is also something that should have been done..

But Alas.

In Closing..... i would want to see another Xenomorph Movie, but one that does-not have to be about Ripley, and one where we can see the Xenomorph Evolve somewhat, be that Naturally or as a Result of attempted Experiments.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

hox

Apr-15-2020 7:04 AM

@IgnorantGuy, the budget for AC was $30m less than that of Prometheus.

You can tell. $30m goes a long way.

BigDave

Apr-15-2020 7:12 AM

Regarding RS!

I think he is NOT the Man in Charge, and he is a YES MAN..

He had LOST control of the ALIEN Sequels, its likely they had Evolved differently than he had wanted, he even had some ideas for how to END his ALIEN knocked by FOX.

So when it came to the Opportunity to work on a Prequel, he knew that NO-ONE had explained WHO the Space Jockey was or HOW the Xenomorph came to be and so he wanted to be a Part of that so he can have some INPUT and Control which he never got with the Sequels to ALIEN.

It appeared he was ok with Alien Engineers and the Plot, he Certainly liked how they expanded WHO the Space Jockey was and it was likely a Sequel would have explored the Engineers, and maybe Variants of Horrors and so to Steer Away from ALIEN having provided the Answers.

Some Folk at FOX had decided maybe you never had to show the Xenomorph and keep some Mystery and again RS seemed to think that was a Good Move... was he really Happy at removing the Xenomorph, was he really only saying he was pleased with Alien Engineers because if he Rejected he Feared he could be replaced?

So When/How that change was made around 2015 to go and make a Literal Set of Prequels to ALIEN and introduce the Xenomorph.... i think RS was more a YES man as he would Worry that if he said NO FOX!  i am NOT gonna bring the Xenomorph back or go to the Derelict again... i want to go to explore THE ENGINEERS and Davids Arc.

If FOX wanted Xenomorphs and Origins and RS rejected they could just replace him and ONCE again he would loose any INPUT on how the Prequels would Evolve... so he would rather say YES and then try and have as much Input as he can..  I would say that he STOOD by the David Arc as something he was Very Interested in making a Important Part to any Sequel.

The above is how is see it.... that does-not mean this is Exactly how it went down though...

I would Assume that if we go a Prometheus 2 instead, then during the next Few Movies, so Prometheus 2 but Certainly Prometheus 3 then we would have seen David go and Create something that we would have seen a Similarity to the Xenomorph with.

But as this Path was closed it seems that Someone, maybe RS had become a Advocate of the David as a eventual Creator/God in his Own Right Arc to now play its Role connected to the Xenomorph from Alien as opposed to something Similar but NOT connected.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ignorantGuy

Apr-15-2020 7:43 AM

hox RS himself said that he had the same budget but he managed to spend less by not shooting in 3d and by using his magic, and by ignoring and connections to Giger to ensure they don't have to pay royalties to the Estate. Yes it costed less, but the budget seems to be the same. Or maybe they lied.

ignorantGuy

Apr-15-2020 8:26 AM

BigDave you could be right. Maybe the market research after Prometheus should just that the main problem was its lack of a clear place in the Alien universe or even the lack of the Xenomorph. Who knows what those said? But if done correctly they should be more relevant than vocal fans.

I've read recently that RS is a "Hollywood court artist" (a more nice way to put Yes-man)

Leto

Apr-15-2020 9:12 AM

>>>I think that AC was a Massive Error!

Well, but Ridley said: "Prometheus was a mistake".

Also, when you "quote" Ridley: "I thought he (xeno) was definitely cooked, with an orange in his mouth". You forgot about his next words: "Wow, OK, I’m wrong".

Yes, Ridley admitted that he was wrong, believing that "the beast is cooked."

BigDave

Apr-16-2020 6:23 AM

Certainly we have seen RS make some Contradicting comments so at times its HARD to try and Figure out what his Stance is, what does he Genuinely Feel, there are other Interviews where he used the Beast is Cooked Comment, and then also after Alien Covenant he came out with comments about being ahead of the Curve with Prometheus.

so it seems he is Very Proud of Prometheus, the Comment about Prometheus being a Mistake seems more so that it was a Mistake to not have the Xenomorph and more Indication to its Origins rather than Overall that Prometheus was a mistake.

It seems maybe Alien Covenant was a Mistake, i get the Impression that he had felt there was No Real Need to have had the Xenomorph.... but this seems only as FAR as that he wanted to go for something Different.

In reality it seems to be he keeps Falling Off the Fence to One Side then the Other... Indicating that a Sequel to Alien Covenant would NOT be about Xenomorphs... but then in other Interviews saying it has to be about HIM but you have to EVOLVE HIM and now that surely was in regards to the Xenomorph.

A latter Interviews he mentions the same thing, that you can go back to the Xenomorph but you have to Evolve it and look at other ways of Procreation....

Ridley Scott seems to be VERY proud of ALIEN, it seems that the way the Xenomorph was Evolved in the Sequels may not have been what he would have done/portrayed as (Queen) but he did say it made sense.

so as he had said before, it seems you can go another FEW rounds with the Xenomorph but it seems that he feels the way we have seen it so FAR has reached some Limits... and so you have to Evolve the Xenomorph to be more than something that can Produce a Queen, that can Lay Eggs, that Xenomorphs via a Infected Host then go around to Create a Hive for Eggs and Capture Hosts to use to Expand their Numbers.

So the Beast may have been Cooked to some Degree but there is always more than ONE way to Cook a Egg.  And while they Beast became a bit of a JOKE with say AVPR, i am sure a lot of Serious/Purest will NOT count the AVP Franchise Portrayal as Canon.

The Xenomorph has Life left in it, you just have to be Careful on how you use/overuse it.... for that its not down to the Fault of the Iconic Monster but the kind of Plot/Story and Execution of it.

Alien Covenant was Flawed in its Xenomorph in a Few Ways of Execution, somethings had to be Changed because the Movie had a LOT to try and cram into the Movie and so Quicker Gestation had to be Played Out....

So while some may look at Alien Covenant as not doing well EVEN THOUGH you got Xenomorphs, we have to remember the Xenomorph was not really done JUSTICE and that does not mean by Virtue of the David Creator Plot.

It was just added for the sake of it, like a Fan Service but then to become something to Raise Davids Role and Character within the Franchise.  While we did see it KILL a number of People.. it seemed to NOT get as much Screen Time as maybe it needed.

I think in Part a reason for why THEY had decided to NOT have the Xenomorph in Prometheus, and wanted to STEER AWAY is because you have a Juggling Act to make Movies that can give as much Justice to the Xenomorph (be about it) but also to be about other Things Too...

So it is like ONCE you show how the Xenomorph is Created, then your left with maybe showing the Chicken/Egg as far as HOW do you get a Queen...  And ONCE you have done those then its HOW can you use the Xenomorph in ways that have not already been seen?

So they had other Plans/Plots with the Prequels that a Emphasis on the Xenomorph could Distract from... which if you added the Xenomorph to it, then you have to FIND the Balance as your either going to Distract from other Things that have NOT been covered in the Franchise... or you will not Distract from them but then the Xenomorph is added in a way that is a Fan Service that does little to do it the Justice it deserves.

So by that then YES you can go more Rounds with the Xenomorph, provided its done Right... provided you cover something that expands the Creature beyond what we had seen in the Franchise.

With the ALIEN Franchise the Xenomorph was the Central Figure and it Worked... with AVP Movies and Alien Covenant then to a degree they was NOT the Central Figure.   You have to find the Balance, and if you are to go and give another 2-3 Xenomorph movies then IF you are going to just Explore them in ways that have already been done, then i think you will Eventually Run out of Ideas and it just becomes something that goes on a Killing Spree.

But some Fans dont have a Problem with that, everyone has their own Opinions.... but surely there is a Brick Wall you HIT if your going to have some Humans Discover, Come into Contact with EGGS.... and we see Xenomorphs Kill, or they go on and show us a Queen to Lay more Eggs.

If done right you could introduce them again for a Few Movies doing similar, Certainly if we discover HOW you get to a Queen.  Certainly if you explore other Procreation Methods..

After that... then its about Evolving the Xenomorph both Aesthetically to a Degree, but more so as far as its Agenda, and what it Can Achieve.... other than Acting like a Ant, Bee or Termite Colony would.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Leto

Apr-16-2020 8:28 AM

Well, before Prometheus no one complained about the lack of diversity. Now, however, too.

 

So, what new procreation methods?

It should not look generic. It should look horrific, but not disgusting. It should look unique, but not stupid. There are a lot of fine lines, and there are not as many options as it might seem.

Besides, haven't we seen new procreation methods? Alien: Resurrection and AvPR already explored this. The result is enough to never again return to such experiments. xD

 

BigDave

Apr-17-2020 4:31 AM

Well the Franchise did attempt a LITTLE bit of Diversity and some Fans liked some of it, while others did-not.  For some Fans they prefer to keep things as they WAS and are not so Happy at Change.....   I think that a Change is Good as long as you do it Right, then a Bit of Change should be welcomed...  For some thats a Big NO NO.

Personally i am kind of with the same Stance that Ridley Scott had, in that i have seen the Xenomorph over and over, and i Felt it was interesting to see something Different, i would have Welcomed another ALIEN Movie say 2010 if it Steered away from Ripley and tried to offer something a Bit Different.  When the Prequels were Announced i was more looking Forwards to seeing the Space Jockey Race explored, than seeing the Xenomorph, although i was Expecting to see something related to the Xenomorph and more Clues to its Origins than we got.

For some Fans they saw the Xenomorph as the CENTER and the Space Jockey as only a Small Part, while for some they should Go Hand in Hand but this depends on the Connection/Origin of the Xenomorph that they was to reveal.

The Few ALIEN Franchise Fans i know (Personally) did-not like the Prequels especially Prometheus, they also never liked Alien 3 (especially as it killed off Newt and Hicks) and thought Alien Resurrection was a Abomination because of how LITTLE the Queen Featured...  Then these Guys kinda liked Alien Covenant and LOVED.... AVP! (not as much as ALIENS though). so give them Queens and Eggs and they Happy ;)

Thats not a knock to her Majesty it just does seem a LOT of Fans see the Franchise and the Queen go Hand in Hand, those Guys i know, even after the Prequels they see the Xenomorph as some ALIEN Organism that are LAID by Queens that the Space Jockey/Engineers had encountered and Attempted to take their Eggs to Study....   Which is really kind of what STARBEAST had showed.

So for me we have a Different Revelation that they are merely as David had done... and before Alien Covenant, then it was as David had done but only the Engineers had done so... or it was something that Evolved from Experiments.

So for me i think IF we continued to do more ALIEN movies then i would like to see them ELEVATE the Xenomorph to being more than a Egg Laying Species that act like Interstellar Ants.   Show them Evolve at the Intelligence Level beyond just Creating Hives to Store Hosts to Procreate via Egg Laying Queen.... and i mean Evolve not so much Aesthetically.   But have this Species Learn and Adapt, be that Naturally Evolve or they do so as a Hubris to some Species attempting to Engineer/Experiment on them.

But for them that would take them FAR away from their Natural Basic Instinct of Procreation.. Take away from a Species that does not have any Morals or Wants, Fears or Desires.... and so they only want to Procreate and the Horror is itself within that due to the Means this is Done.

I guess what some would say is the saying... "If its NOT Broken then WHY Fix it"

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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