Hello everyone. I am once again starting a topic on the Engineers. In the recent topics I discussed the potential background story of the Engineers and how it ties to human religion: god vs Satan, Zeus and the Olympians vs Prometheus, in short one faction creating humanity and one faction secretly teaching them forbidden stuff like technology and warfare.
I am putting forward the idea that the Engineers seen in Prometheus are the "good" Engineers and the Engineers we see in Alien: Covenant may be the bad Engineers or somehow linked to the bad Engineers. This is mainly for two reasons:
1) The AC Engineers do look more human than the Engineers from Prometheus. They have a more beige skin colour and human like eyes whereas the Prometheus Engineers have more white-blue skin with black eyes. In the Old Testament and the Book of Enoch there's a story about the Sons of God who came down from heaven and slept with human women. The AC Engineers maybe the product of this relationship - the Nephilim, which means "giants" and was translated in the Septinguant as "gigantes". In AC Rosenthal says to Oram when they see the Engineers' space suits in the crashed ship: "God! They were giants!"
2) In Prometheus we learn, that the Engineers we see in this movie (white-blue skin, black eyes) created humanity and then set out to destroy it. They did so 2.000 years ago, which implies (and RS as well as Lindeloff confirmed this) that it has something to do with Jesus. Probably mankind has strayed from the Engineers path (with the Romans going around, killing conquering and killing) and they, in a last effort, sent an emissary (Jesus) to convert mankind. But they crucified him, which lead to the Engineers deeming mankind a failure and setting out to destroy it (like Satan wanted god to do in Paradise Lost - destroying his creation by himself). If this is the case, then the Prometheus Engineers cannot be on the side of the Romans. Indeed they despised them, which is why the sent the emissary in the first place and opted to wipe out humanity as the Romans crucified him.
We also learn, that some Engineers (the bad ones?) were in contact with humanity over the centuries (secretly?). Surely they did so to teach them (forbidden?) stuff. At least for instance showing them LV-223, which seems to be a bio-weapons facility.
If this is the case, then I think that the AC Engineers must be the bad ones - the ones who visited earth and taught humanity forbidden stuff like technology and warfare. This is because they resemble the Romans in architecture, clothing and rituals. I suggest to watch the following two clips. The first one is from the HBO series "Rome" when Caesar enters Rome triumphantly. The second one is the flashback sequence from Alien:Covenant. Notice the resemblance of the horns blowing, the crowd cheering, the "leading" Engineer on the stairs of the cathedral raising his arm, the resemblance of their town to St. Peter's Square in the Vatican. THEY must have been the ones who were in contact with the Romans and taught them everything.
Caesar entering Rome
David arriving at the city on Planet 4
Well this is a TOPIC that has No Real Answers because it Potentially has MANY ;) it really is Very Open for Debate and its certainly part of a reason i abandoned making my own Prometheus Sequels (stories) due to NOT being able to settle on a single Satisfying Answer to some of the Mysteries, which the Engineers were a LARGE part of.
Maybe we should-not be looking too LITERAL, but certainly that many Mythos and Connections had arose from our Interaction with the Engineers. I was going to START a Topic today that may Conflict with this ONE.. well in Part what it covered can be covered on this Topic.
I think we need to go BACK to the Beginning if you would, the Sacrificial Scene seemed to indicate and RS and others comments also Implied that the Seeding of Worlds was done with Good Benevolent Intentions, or certainly what are Beneficial to the Engineers.
And yet Ridley Scott then said that the Engineers are Aggressive SOB's he also referred to them as like the Fallen Angels. And i have said a Number of Times we maybe need to look at what he meant by this!
Fallen as in Demons as in EVIL, Wicked and Cruel? which is what some look at THE DEVIL as being. Well having them being called Aggressive £!"$£"% and depicting them as having NO LOVE for Mankind could FIT that Bill.
However we also have to Consider that Fallen is also what becomes of those who go AGAINST the Hierarchy (or GOD) if you would. In this Context then you look at the Devil as being a being, a Creation that was Perfect, Sentient to a Degree, who then began to Question as to WHY he and the other Angels should BOW down and Serve God and be Servants... he was Very Arrogant and had Pride in his Abilities which he felt he was being Limited. And so his Rebellion against Gods Rule is what was his First Fall. Does this alone make someone Wicked?
With Mankind you can look at Lucifer as either Deliberately Corrupting Mankind to SPITE his old Master GOD and show that his NEW Creation could be made to Disobey the LORD too. Or you could see it that Lucifer simply saw that Mankind was Created to be another NEW Subservient Species that would be HELD BACK by the Knowledge that GOD would Forbid them to have... would this be Considered a Wicked Act? As far as GODS Purpose and Agenda then it would appear to be a GREAT disobeying with severe Ramifications. And so Considered BAD by GOD.
I mention the above because i FEEL they are a KEY to what is going on with the Various Engineers we see ;)
With Prometheus we had the ELDERS who appeared to look like the Engineer but just more Frail and Old... but as this SCENE was removed (Elders) it maybe means we cant assume the Hierarchy is intended to look as those Elders did.
Ridley Scott had mentioned he removed the Scene as he did-not want to give too much away, and that he did-not want to meet GOD in the First Movie. This could imply that those Elders would either be the Hierarchy/Gods or that he was going to replace them with something that would be the Hierarchy/Gods.
When talking about Prometheus 2 he said that those beings in Prometheus where the FALLEN ANGELS, which implies they are either Wicked/Evil and Deceitful or they had Rebelled against their Creators/Hierarchy. It was likely something between those TWO.
He then had also mentioned that David and Dr Shaw would meet these beings.. who are NOT really GODS! Not in the Traditional Sense and that these beings are FAR from Benevolent. This could mean that they would be seen as more Malevolent, but this could just be HOW we would see them as far as their Intentions with us. (are Mankind Evil because we Experiment on Guinea Pigs and Apes).
If we try and Combine what was said by RS, then it could imply that the World that David and Dr Shaw would arrive at (Paradise) maybe contained beings who were DIFFERENT to our Prometheus Engineers, but who were still NOT really GODS and would be seen as FAR from Benevolent as far as how they would see and act towards Mankind.
This maybe does-not mean the Engineers are Malevolent but that as far as we are Concerned we would Consider them as such. By that i think its easy to Consider the Replicants, would you Consider what the Blade Runners were Tasked with as being Malevolent? If say we see Walter Models become Sentient like David, maybe NOT all of them would be Wicked to Humans... but they would pose a Concern to Mankind and a great RECALL well a CULLING of them would be required.. would that make Mankind Evil?
So its a Tricky Question when dealing with the Engineers, as its such a OPEN kind of Plot.
But its maybe one that makes more Sense IF maybe we look at the Prometheus Engineers more like Lucifer and David and Replicants.
When trying to figure out WHO really are the Bad Guys i think its Very Open... there could be ONE Wicked Faction but then they all could be GOOD/BAD depending on how we look at them and MANKIND.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think when we look at the Reason for WHY we was scheduled to be DESTROYED its another Open Question to a degree, YES at first it in part was NO Coincidence to the Crucifixion of Christ, but then he had said that was TOO on the Nose and that Christ was a Emissary.
If we are trying to look at it in Context to Prometheus etc, then its Pretty Obvious that Jesus is not depicted as 7-8ft and Bald ;) and so likely he was a Hybrid or a Human that was TAUGHT the ways of the Engineers, and sent down on their Behalf.
If you have Created a Sub-Species and wish to Interact with them and Guide them and teach then Limited Knowledge, maybe in Time you would find it Better for some Reason to SEND down beings that look more ALIKE the Humans, than sending down 8ft Members of your Not Quite Human Race.
So there could be MANY such Emissaries, well certainly more than just the ONE. And it would seem as far as the Engineers that they had send down these Emissaries to try and Guide us to a Path or Behavior that the Engineers felt was Appropriate because we had started to Behave in Ways that Offended them, and turning out to be a Civilization doing things and seeing the Engineers in ways that the Engineers had not DEEMED.
We have to assume these Emissaries are Considered Good as far as the Engineers would see them, but then if we consider Prophets and the like, such as Jesus in this Context are seen as doing GOOD for Mankind, then surely the THINGS they are trying to Change in Mankind are NOT considered to be BAD/EVIL.
But after we had Disobeyed the Engineers or/and Offended them and KILLED the Emissaries that were Sent Down to put us back on Track, then this resulted in the ORDER to CULL our Species if you would...
This would have to be seen as these Engineers doing something that is Beneficial to their Species/Ways/Order, but that would seem Wicked and a Overreaction to Mankind.
Again these Subjects are something that can have Multiple Ways to explain and Explore them.
What we do know is the Engineers or Emissaries had Visited Mankind across various Periods and Places in Time for at least 35'000 Years. I think we have to Consider the Prometheus Mythos quite a bit too, rather than be looking at Biblical Accounts by Virtue of the Space Jesus Angle ;)
So maybe we had some Engineers or Watchers if you would who are TASKED with keeping a EYE over us, maybe Teaching us Limited Stuff.... we could WONDER had some of these began to Pass-On Forbidden Knowledge?
Could these Watchers if you would then have been Banished and even Punished for the HARM they had Caused... and the Hierarchy decided to send down Emissaries who looked more Human to TRY and put things RIGHT?
Again trying to Figure Out who the Good/Bad Guys are is something thats Interesting but something that may be HARD to get to the Bottom of.
I will say the Planet 4 Engineers never came across to me as a Malevolent Species. But then Mankind may not be considered likewise... but they may be considered likewise if we looked at Blade Runner as far as how the Sentient Replicants would feel about their Purpose and then how Mankind saw them as a Threat and wanted to CULL them.
Thats not saying Blade Runner and Prometheus are Connected, but just that when looking at the Sub-Creation, Purpose and then attempt to CULL the Rebellion, is something that is maybe at Play on Multiple Levels as far as the Engineers and their Creations ;)
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think if i look more at the Question of is there Good/Bad Engineers.
Then i would say thats likely, Certainly in the Past, but if we are talking about Currently Factions that are Good and Bad then i think thats more Difficult to Conclude. You could have a Country who you would consider are GOOD but they have people who are BAD, as well as GOOD.. this Country could Consider another as BAD, but then this BAD Country could consider the Accusing Country as BAD.
Mankind is both Good and Bad, and looking at the Engineers i would consider that they have become something thats just Neutral if you would. But they may consider themselves Good, but others may consider them as Bad.
We had RS mention that the Engineers are Aggressive SOB's and the beings that David would encounter are FAR from Benevolent, but this does-not make them EVIL. Sometimes there are Necessary Evils for the Greater Good (like you could consider if the ATOMIC Bombs had NOT been Dropped on Japan then in the next 5 years it would be likely MANY more Lives World Wide would have been Lost, including the Japanese).
Ridley Scott always seems to indicate the Engineers as Gardeners of Space and puts a Emphasis on Creation more than the Destruction. He refers to the Sacrificial Act as a Benevolent one.
He calls the Planet 4 Engineers as the Civilians of the Engineers Society and the LV-223 as the Military, and YET the Sacrificial Engineer looked more like the LV-223 Engineers than Planet 4 and this maybe is NOT a Oversight.
so the Sacrificial Engineer and LV-223 Engineers appear to be the same, they appear Genetically Enhanced for their Purpose.
So they use these Adonis Specimens for Seeding but also to use for WAR... but the Juggernauts do-not look like they are WARSHIPS... they are merely a SHIP that carries Cargo that can be used as a Biological Weapon.
So if we assume that indeed they use these more Enhanced Specimens to Seed Worlds and this is what Creates Life but not Necessary Horrific Life such as the Neomorph. Then this ACT of Self Sacrifice is seen for the Greater Good and BENEVOLENT.
The Actions of the LV-223 Engineers however is Considered to be Malevolent but is it really on the GRAND SCALE?
Provided the Planet 4 Engineers and LV-223 Engineers are on the same PAGE.. then their Actions could be Deemed as Necessary for the Greater Good and so are NOT a MALEVOLENT Race.
But when we are due to be on the receiving END of their Actions, as a Precaution to Eradicate a Threat then from our Perspective it would seem a EVIL ACT.
However Consider this.... it seems likely (as indicated by RS) that WE are NOT the only World the Engineers had Seeded and maybe Created Intelligent Life, this would be a WISE idea for the Engineers. And so if ONE such Worlds Inhabitants are deemed Rebellious, a Threat or a Failure then to Eradicate them, and Start Again makes Sense.
We need to Remember that to the Engineers we could be Considered nothing but Chimpanzees... so lets Consider these TWO Scenarios.
1) Scientist Mess about with the Apes and Evolve them Mentally like we saw in Planet of the Apes, and they also Evolve to be more Human as far as Dexterity (THINK about Planet of the Apes).
2) We are Genetically trying a Bio-Weapon Virus on the Apes, and it shows signs of passing to Humans and getting out of Control. Then some Apes get loose...
If these Apes are Contained say in a Country lets say Australia, and are Considered a Mistake and Potential Threat.
Then our ONLY option could be to CULL them... it may seem Drastic but its Necessary, and we have other Apes on other Continents that are NOT effected so we are NOT exactly going to be Destroying their Entire Species.
What we do to those Apes would be Considered BAD especially for the Apes, but for the Greater Good it is Necessary and so we would NOT be considered as MALEVOLENT for this Action.
But we should then take NOTE and Learn from the Mistake or Face a Future Hubris, especially if we FAIL to CULL the Problem. Do you learn lessons and improve SAFEGUARDS? or do you ABANDON any Future Experiments and Learn your Lesson?
THIS.... is how i think we should look at the Engineers, and in this case they may not be Considered EVIL...
We can be EVIL... we have Created David who we can see has become Evil to a Degree, yet we have Walter who we consider as NOT really Evil.... do we CULL the Synthetics, or Learn from the Mistakes of David, and hope that the Walters never suffer the same Issues.
Would Destroying the Synthetics be considered as BAD? it would if those Synthetics became Sentient like David, as far as how the Sentient Synthetics would deem such a Action.
So with the Engineers and Humanity its similar.
This HOWEVER... does not rule out that at Present of in the Past that Factions of Engineers had their own Conflicts of Interests and are deemed Good/Bad by their Agenda.. we also cant rule out that the LV-223/Prometheus Guys are to the Planet 4 Guys as the Replicants in Blade Runner are to Humans.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"due to NOT being able to settle on a single Satisfying Answer to some of the Mysteries, which the Engineers were a LARGE part of"
Great point but dude, you need to make your Comments shorter^^
Who the "good" and "bad" Engineers are is maybe a question of perspective. My point here is this:
2.000 years ago the Romans crucified Jesus. Ridley Scott didn't mention that in Prometheus explicitly (because it would be "to on the nose") but this is definitely what he had in mind. This crucifixion was obviously not for the joy of the Prometheus Engineers (which is why they tried to destroy humanity) and so they were not sympathetic to the Romans' way of life. But the AC Engineers resemble the Romans so closely that they must have been the ones who taught the Romans how to do business. And so the Prometheus and AC Engineers must be at odds with one another.
This is my point. Who is the god/Zeus/Satan/Prometheus/Annunaki/Igigi party surely is up to debate!
But maybe this is all wrong and the beings on Planet 4 are not an active player at all! David and Walter may mimic humanity and the Planet 4 beings. Like David and Walther are discussing:
"You were too human, too idiosyncratic, thinking for yourself. So they made the following models with fewer complications."
"More like machines..."
Maybe humanity resembles David - the Engineers first try: individualistic, idiosyncratic and with a mind of their own. But quickly the Engineers got scared of us. So they made new models - the Planet 4 beings: more submissive, obedient etc. and they set out to destroy their first creation - humanity.
This is my big beef with AC: You have the Planet 4 beings (Engineers? One of their creations?) right in front of your f*** nose and you learn nothing. Absolutely catastrophic decision by RS in my mind.
I apologize for my Long Posts ;) its hard to keep things short on some subjects and this certainly is one of them.
I think regarding the Space Jesus i think its something we have to NOT try and look at too Literally the Plot seems to be just as much about other Various Mythos as well as the Abrahamic Aspect. And so i think the Emissary take on it works better.
I think its likely the Engineers may have been Disappointed with Mankind prior to the appearance of that certain Emissary and so these were sent down to TRY and Guide us back to ways that appeased the Engineers, but we instead had KILLED some of these Emissaries.
I think the Anger was more so than just the Roman Empire, i think they saw various Civilizations that were not behaving in the way the Engineer liked, they likely saw how much the Culture and Ways of Large Empires had Spread, and Felt that to simply Eradicate a Certain Continent/Empire would NOT be a way to Guarantee that the WAYS of Man that offended or threatened the Engineers would NEVER reappear again.
I think the Plot is to show that a lot of the Architecture/Constructions of Mankind are Influenced by the Engineers. There certainly is a Aesthetic Connection to Planet 4 and some Cultures on Earth in the past like the Roman Empire. I think maybe we have to ASSUME that this kind of Aesthetic Architecture on Planet 4 does predate those on Earth.
I think its so OPEN for debate and Speculation as to HOW FAR they influenced Mankind and IF everything that we was TAUGHT had came with the Consent of the Engineers Hierarchy.
I think in Light of this we have to maybe try and APPLY the Fall of Lucifer and Prometheus Betrayal to the Plot, more so than any kind of Space Jesus plot as per say.
So it becomes a Question of WHO is Prometheus more so than who was Christ in the overall Plot. And this is a Question where we dont have a Definite Answer, but i think we can assume by Virtue of the Prometheus Poster etc that the BIG HEAD has something to do with this.
Some think it represents the Sacrifice of the Sacrificial Engineer and so he is Prometheus but this would not FIT with a lot of the Prometheus Mythos and so i think we cant look to LITERAL and so as with the case of a Space Jesus so to Speak, the intention (well comment) by RS could suggest he was NOT the only Emissary and so when looking at other Single Figures such as Prometheus it could be applied that its not a SINGLE Figure but a it represents a Group.
So this Raises the Question of are the LV-223 Engineers the Prometheus, was Mankind Created without the Consent of the other Engineers, or was we designed for a Purpose but the Promethean Engineers had Taught us more than we was Intended, was this done for Good, or to Spite their own Hierarchy?
I think there are Many ways this can be Interpreted and Speculated, and its something i am sure we would have liked to had seen EXPLORED... which with AC we sadly got No Answers.
I will say there is quite a Connection Between Figures such as Lucifer, Prometheus and Enki likewise maybe between GOD/Angels, Titans/Olympians and indeed Annunaki/Igigi and i think a number of Fans may have wanted them to LOOSELY try and Expand on this in Connection to the Engineers.
When we look at these Various Figures, its a case of do we Consider that Enlil, YHWH and Zeus the GOOD GUY? and so are Enki, Lucifer and Prometheus the BAD GUYS?
You consider the Former to be the GOOD GUYS... but then if you look at the Intention for Mankind and who wants to be giving out the PUNISHMENT and Destruction then those Good Guys intentions are NOT so Good for Mankind.
The other Guys had Disobeyed the Hierarchy, but they in doing so had Enlightened Mankind... to Levels the Hierarchy had NOT intended or Forbidden.... and so maybe there is a SIMILAR kind of Connection that we could apply to the Engineers.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think trying to get back to the OT as far as what you may be referring to, seems to be that One Species/Faction of Engineers had Created us for Good Intentions while another had intended to Destroy us with Different.
If this is to suggest that our LV-223 Guys had intended to Destroy us because we KILLED the Emissary and they was UPSET at the Civilization/Culture of the Roman Empire and maybe then WHY does Planet 4 look so much like such a Culture?
This is a Rabbit Hole that has a number of ways we can look at it. For example had the Planet 4 Engineers had Influenced our Roman Culture, was this against what the Sacrificial Engineer and LV-223 Engineers had intended?
You would have to Wonder WHY had the Planet 4 Engineers not been Punished/Destroyed?
Maybe they knew the LV-223 Engineers was not pleased with how Mankind had became, and maybe they too Feared they would be on the Receiving End of the LV-223 Engineers Wraith... and so they Intervened in Sabotage or Similar to Eradicate the LV-223 Engineers causing the Outbreak?
A Problem with this is that the Planet 4 Engineers did-not look Concerned about a Incoming Juggernaut but its seemed the Ship was Familiar to them but they had NO Fear, so they either must have been Confident the LV-223 Engineers are all DEAD and these Juggernauts are not Confined to LV-223 or that both sets of Engineers may be on the same Page?
You could look at it as though they (LV-223 Engineers) decided to GIVE UP on Mankind, but they had taken some Humans to Planet 4 and so Created/Interbred what we see as the Planet 4 Engineers and left Earth to ROT as without their HELP then Mankind would be STUCK on Earth.
The Problem is that RS and Seagers had indicated that Planet 4 would Predate Mankind and so the Architecture on Earth including the Roman Empires are Inspired/Taught by those who had Constructed the Buildings on Planet 4
I guess we could look at the Engineers on LV-223 as being tasked as being Watchers, but they decided instead to Interfere and Confidence Mankind to follow their Ways, and so they wished to Influence Mankind in ways that the Hierarchy of the Engineers would have Forbidden... But just as the LV-223 Engineers decide to go against their Hierarchy wishes... they discover that Mankind become Rebellious and go against the Watchers (LV-223 Engineers) intentions and ways, and so they decided to REPLACE US with something Else.
The BIG Problem with such Ideas as i have discussed in this REPLY is the Location of Planet 4 in relation to Earth and LV-223, had the Engineers Home-World/Planet 4 been Located FAR FAR FAR away like 1000's of Light Years, then Scenarios as i put in this TOPIC could be more Plausible.
I would Safely Assume that if RS was not Forced to make Alien Covenant a Movie that would Directly begin to Connect to ALIEN and introduce the Xenomorph... then i would assume that a Prometheus 2 would have taken David and Dr Shaw to a WORLD that is FAR beyond the Reach of Human Technology even as of ALIENS.
They seem LESS-SO by Virtue of Planet 4 and LV-223 being on the Door Step to Each other and a Stone Throw away from Earth in Terms of Engineers Technology.
Which would have left LESS of a Restraint and more Flexibility on Expanded the Engineers Agenda and History.
"So they made new models - the Planet 4 beings: more submissive, obedient etc"
This Certainly was a Conclusion you could draw, One that i was a Little Drawn too, until some of the Commentary Came out, but it seems those Planet 4 Engineers could Predate Mankind.
Maybe we was a latter Experiment, that Failed when we became a Race that Left Alone would Develop to have our own Views and Cultures and ways than KEEP to what the Engineers wanted from us.
I cant seem to Find where i had read that either Ridley Scott or Chris Seagers had referred to the Planet 4 Engineers as the Originals... maybe i was mistaken?
It certainly is the case the Hall of Heads guys predate us, but thats not to say they are the SAME as those Planet 4 Guys, and so in FUTURE it could be revealed on Screen that the Planet 4 Engineers are a Hybrid of Humans and Engineers and that WE do Predate those Planet 4 beings...
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
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