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Dead in the Water?

Dead in the Water?

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BigDave

Dec-11-2019 8:22 AM

Its been quite some time with NO News regarding the Prequels, however with the Disney Take Over it seems the Franchise is still getting Material as far as Comics, Games, Novels and Merchandise that all seem to be connected more to the ALIEN Franchise as opposed to the Prequels.

So do you think the whole Prometheus Plot and Engineers are DEAD IN THE WATER?

Do you think or expect that Disney would ever Explore our Engineers again, or even do any Continuation with the Prequels?

Or do you expect them to just Concentrate on the Xenomorph's alone and to NOT touch on the Prequels or Engineers and would that be something you think would be for the best?

The more ALIEN Franchise Related Material we get released over the years, and the Longer before we see anything regarding a Continuation of the Prequels or any exploration of our Engineers, then it could seem that maybe they would become a Forgotten Part of the ALIEN Franchise.

Would we and should we see a Continuation or Exploration of the Engineers...

Or should a Complete Reboot be what Disney should and could eventually do in a number of years down the line?

EDIT:

Forgot to add....  do you also think they would instead Continue with a ALIEN Franchise Movie Series that is set after the events of ALIEN, and is this a direction you would prefer?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

38 Responses to Dead in the Water?

MonsterZero

Dec-11-2019 8:53 AM

I'd say it's more about heroes with Disney. 

The main reason I loved Predator was because of the characters not the creature...I wanted to see more of Dutch. Predator2 was a non starter for me because no Arnold. 

Xenomorph is near the bottom of my list of things I want to see in an 'alien' movie...I want strong characters.

What movies star is going to want to play a Engineer?...no I think they will jettison the Engineers.

Unless a big director or well known actor wants to do their take?...then I'd say we are dead in the water.

 

 

dk

Dec-11-2019 9:21 AM

I think it is likely dead in the water for the foreseeable future. I could see Disney making a reboot in its own image down the road after they milk their other acquisitions dry. They may also hope old fans will forget, move on and not notice their revisionist movies.

BigDave

Dec-11-2019 2:52 PM

I certainly feel the same Unfortunately.

The Prequels had Polarized the Fan-base a little too much.

I do feel any continuation would likely be a SET-AFTER what ever Ridley Scott had planned.... so what we had was...

Prometheus ==>(events of Crossing)==>Alien Covenant

Then we would SKIP past Alien Covenant 2 and arrive at a Direct Prequel or TWO that take us to ALIEN.

Where maybe the Returning Engineers will be the Aggressive SOB's from Prometheus who would ask LESS Questions than the Predators.... or maybe they would introduce another Race Entirely.

But then i think its more likely we would NOT get any Continuation but either ALIEN Movies that would be SET after ALIEN but would Totally Contradict and THUS remove the Prequels from Canon....

Or maybe in 10 Years for the 50th Anniversary a Complete ALIEN Prequel Reboot... that may not even be anything CLOSE to what Prometheus was (Engineers, Human Visitation/Chariots of the Gods).

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Dec-11-2019 3:03 PM

MonsterZero you raise some Good Points...

A Movie does work with Good Characters, and often any Sequel works best if at least ONE of the Characters Return.

With Prometheus some did have some Problems with Noomi Rapace and her Dr Shaw Character, but some Felt that she should have played a ROLL in the Sequel.

Instead of looking at WHAT was so wrong with the Character and attempt to FIX it in a Sequel.....

They now face the same Problem with Katherine Waterston's Character  Daniels she just never had the Impact and so if they Drop Her... then how can they keep introducing New Characters and get them to work.

They (Disney) will face the same Problem with any ALIEN Movie they make, they would have to introduce New Characters that work well, and then it would be expected a additional Movie would connect and Cary Over at least ONE of the New Characters.

With Disney they may also think its best to PLAY IT SAFE and introduce a Character the Fanbase has knowledge of, be that Amanda Ripley, or some Character Related to one of those from the first TWO Movies.... or even BRING BACK our Ripley and basically a SOFT Re-boot where only ALIEN and ALIENS are Canon..

Much like Blomkamps Alien 5, and so i do feel/fear that this is a more likely Root they would take....... and therefor we would get similar to what happened with James Camerons's Latest Offering Terminator: Dark Fate

Basically go back to Characters we are Familiar from the First Two Movies.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

dk

Dec-11-2019 6:47 PM

do you also think they would instead Continue with a ALIEN Franchise Movie Series that is set after the events of ALIEN

It's tough to see Disney deal with Scott's prequels. I can see three possibilities.

1. Continue after Resurrection. Give a brief rundown of the Quadrilogy and then continue on Earth with Call finding a WY lab somewhere. Ripley 8 would rapidly mutate and die, so no more Ripley. Call would start digging around WY and things would unfold from there.

2. Give a brief rundown of Alien and Aliens and basically continue with Alien 5 or Isolation.

3. Give a brief rundown of Alien-Alien 3 and continue with the prisoner (forgot the name) who was dragged away by the goons near the end of A3.

Gavin

Dec-11-2019 10:19 PM

If I was a gambling man, which I'm not because it's a fool's game, my money would be that Neill Blomkamp's Alien Awakening is likely back in contention.

Of late, there have been certain movies trending that have been revisionist sequels such as Halloween and Terminator: Dark Fate.

Then there is also the fact that Disney have lately been contracting other production companies to make them money, such as Pixar, Marvel Studios and Lucasfilm.

But most interestingly is the timing. Neill released his concept art and got the fans excited about his project, similar to what Tim Miller did with the Deadpool test footage way back when. As a result, Fox seriously considered the prospect, with Ridley Scott even saying he would produce the movie after the release of Alien: Covenant. But then Scott and Fox cock-blocked Blomkamp's movie, with Scott throwing shade saying there was no script (despite both Sigourney Weaver and James Cameron claiming otherwise) before taking the name of Blomkamp's movie as his own for the, in dead water sequel to Alien: Covenant...

But this was all before Disney grabbed Fox. Though many of us would argue that the ship has sailed there is no denying that Ripley is an icon and an icon that aligns with ceratin 'trending' agendas. Then there is the popularity of James Camerons Aliens. And then finally is the fact that now that Disney own Fox that Neill is no longer attached to RoboCop Returns, but has not announced as to why.

BigDave

Dec-12-2019 9:12 AM

I think you raise Great Points Gavin......

I mean NO Disrespect by this, but there is a Large Fandom of ALIEN Fans who are more into the Popcorn Canon Fodder Xenomorph Aspect that is seen in ALIENS and Alien Resurrection and a Majority of the Games, Comics and Movies.

Aliens, Guns, Run and Shoot and Hide with Bigger Alien or Queen revealed and a Hero/Heroine Saves the Day are what i think a lot of those who enjoy and would associate the ALIEN Franchise with.

I respect Ridley Scott for trying something different, as the BEAST was kind of Cooked... but Sadly its a FACT that the Franchise is more Associated with the ALIENS and Various Comics and Video Games adaption of the Xenomorph and the Action Style, and so going for a Prequel Project that would NOT be about the Beast or Explain its Origins was a BANE of contention for Fans who would have expected in PART these to be Answered.

Ridley Scott wanted to go deeper than this, he felt the Space Jockey Race was the way to go, and also there were other Important Aspects of the Franchise that had not been covered in Depth, such as A.I and the Company History and Agenda....

Sadly Prometheus became something that was a bit too FAR Disconnected to what a Majority of People would have seen that a ALIEN Franchise was about, and while the Prequels was attempted to tackle the Space Jockey and Steer Away from the Xenomorph and ALIEN... a lot of Fans would have felt the Franchise had to be about the BEAST....

That then lead us to the PICKLE that was Alien Covenant... that seemed to KILL of the Aspect of Exploring our Engineers Deeper and the Proxy to get those Answers (Dr Shaw), it decided to give us a Xenomorph Origins by a MAD Robot and Force the Origins to appear to be something that was NEVER there say 25 Years prior to the Events of ALIEN.

While some Fans may have liked the Prequels and some of those are NOT a Fan of the Cook the Beast Popcorn Formula, i think even those Fans would agree that Alien Covenant was a Mistake!

They have Dangled the Creation Carrot of the Xenomorph to the Fans, a Carrot that the Fans are not keen on, and so a Continuation of this route would DISPLEASE most Fans... a Sequel that would NOT be about the Xenomorph but would be about A.I and what ever Creative Shenanigans that David gets up to would NOT interest as many Fans.

A Majority of Fans would hope the Sequel would NOT be solely about David or even bypass him, and that the Sequel would introduce us to the Xenomorph and SHOW that it is NOT something that had existed for THOUSANDS of years and NOT a Creation by David....

Then some Fans would have wanted to see our ENGINEERS but i am not sure Most would want to see a DEEP History about them, or see Scenes like those Engineers in Alien Covenant, they would likely be wanting to see the Prometheus Engineers back who will just KICK ASS and not take NAMES!

Some Fans would want a Revelation that those Engineers are working for something more ALIEN and some Fans would plain ans Simple just WISH the Engineers never existed.

What i am saying is the Franchise Past ALIEN had evolved really into a Parasitic Organism that would become a Invasive Species, and that this would be something that other Species (Space Jockey, Humans) could use to their Advantage as a Biological Weapon..... but Ultimately at their Hubris.

So i feel most of the People who know what the ALIEN is would associate it with ALIENS and the Comics, Games and so the Route that RS was taking to Explore the Space Jockey is something that they would NOT really be 100% into or care about in Comparison to the Xenomorph itself.

I think its proved that this should have been kept a MYSTERY.

So i would say a Higher % of Fans would preferred something thats more like Novels, Comics and Games over exploring the Race Behind the Space Jockey, regardless of how ALIEN they made it.... the Majority of Fans would want to have the Xenomorph playing a Larger Role.

And so i think that SADLY that YES the Engineers Plot Idea is DEAD IN THE WATER..

Disney would know what most people and especially Fans would associate the Franchise with, and they would also want to Re-Introduce the Franchise to a Newer Generation where they can EXPAND that Franchise.... which we see done in Novels, Games and Comics...

I feel Disney would want to Expand it to TV and maybe Movies but they would cater for the Newer Generation who would prefer such more Action Popcorn Horror, than anything that is Deep Thinking or Thought Provoking and  also such a Move would please the Die-Hard Aliens Fans....

Disney have to think about the  MAJORITY as this is what makes MONEY and this is what Disney are in it for.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Dec-12-2019 9:42 AM

So to Continue.. Gavin...

This is exactly the points that you had given...

It could be more HARDER to Rescue the Prequels than to just IGNORE  them.... a FIX could be to Reboot Alien Covenant.... but then they would think its Easier to just IGNORE the both of them.

How many people who saw or would see the Prequels and Alien Franchise who were NOT Born prior to say 1986.. how many of those would be DISAPPOINTED if the Prequels became something that Disney would want us to Pretend that never happened?

These Generations that they can Market and Make more Money out of as far as to EXPLORE and Evolve the Franchise, and the Generations Prior who were around when ALIENS came out or ALIEN, i would say a Higher % would not be as Displeased if the Prequels were THROWN into the None-Canon Bin..... if the other Option would be Swallow the Hard Pill that Alien Covenant had delivered.

HOWEVER....................

This does not mean any NEW Movies should be Confined to BUG WARS... although there is a Market for that, you can STRAY a little away from the QUEEN, and Eggs especially as far as Aesthetically similar to what we had in the Franchise.

So you can Evolve and Change the Beast, you dont have to have it that there are these Eggs, with These Arachnid looking Face Vaginas and they are Laid by Queens and Produce our Xenomorph's we have seen all Too Often.

*Did they Originate from someplace else or Process (which is what the Prequels attempted to do).

Or do we go and take them as a Ancient Alien Organism and look at WHY would some People want to OBTAIN them and Question is this similar to what the Space Jockey had attempted to their DOWN-FALL.

Because the QUEEN ==> Egg Formula

Then the IF we can obtain Eggs and we use them to Destroy/Kill People we want to Get Rid Of, just as we could do with Chemical Weapons...  then i feel THIS route is LIMITED and Eventually would get STALE..

Unless you like to see Aesthetically the Xenomorph going around Laying Eggs, Face Hugging Chest Bursting and Killing Folk and then seeing them POPPED off by Marine Types or Heroine/Hero....

There is only so much of this and so much Run, Hide and Shoot that can be done.....

It would have to be about the Back Ground Plot and Agenda more than the ALIEN or MARINES... it would require GOOD CHARACTERS...

But more so..... it would be about WHO/WHY would someone want to go after such a Horrific Organism, to what END and what Agenda (which has been done) and so then its more so about WHAT happens if they Succeed? And what else can they use the Organism for?

Alien Resurrection kind of indicated this, and it appears Blomkamps Alien 5 also may have tackled similar.

Because i feel you cant go around and have it that Eventually the Company/Humanity manage to find a way to Extract and Store the Xenomorph Safely.... then WAIT to use them as a Eradication Tool on any Enemy or Threat they would want to use them on... instead of NUKE/BOMB them!

Then show them use them as such and it gets out of HAND or that they suffer a Outbreak while trying to do this... as this has been COVERED over and over really... well also as well as Failed Attempts to Obtain the Organism...

You can go a FEW more Rounds with such... but then you have to Freshen it up...

The other OPTION would be a Revelation that the Xenomorphs themselves can EVOLVE to be able to Traverse Space and Build Stuff.... or Reveal that their Creators can do this and Introduce them..... but this is what the Prequels attempted to do...

And to revel the Space Jockey as a Slave to a Different Race or a Different Race Entirely (reboot Engineers) may offer as many PIT-FALLS as the Prequels Faced.

Likewise to explore the Origins of the Xenomorph as a Race that could Build and Create Ships that can then become a Threat to Humanity, could be making them more so a STARSHIP TROOPERS like Explanation.

PAST IS THE PAST.... it should not be touched upon.... left alone!

After we go a Few more Rounds of the same old, same old, we need to look at what becomes of WHEN someone decides to Experiment on those Eggs beyond using them as they are... or a Event that causes those Eggs/Organisms to Evolve, or even some Mutation of them or Infected Hosts.

Ripley 8 and the Clones was a Good Start.

In CLOSING....

The Franchise does-not have to be about Ripleys, be it Ellen Ripley, Amanda Ripley, or say Amanda's Off-Spring or any other relation.

But i do think again these kind of Connections is WHAT it is that Disney would GO FOR!

I think we would just be in store for... Ripley, Queen and Eggs...  Lets Hope that Disney prove me WRONG!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Ingeniero

Dec-12-2019 2:37 PM

No Alien Films On Disney+

We have been provided with updates from Fox, Disney rumors, and more rumors.  I have consumed this bread and am left wanting.

There are no Alien movies on Disney+ the last time it was checked and didn't realize that "in the vault" meant not on Disney+.  And, the Alien movies are available to buy/rent on other outlets.

Why can you rent it digitally and not have it in the Disney+ subscription?  

Wanting and pissed.  

Think about that.  Buy a subscription to Disney+, no Alien films but you can pay to watch them on cable and satellite outlets, rent on YouTube, Amazon...that sucks.  

Dead in the water is a compliment.  

The Disney strategy above is garbage for Alien fans unless you wish to pay elsewhere to watch Disney content.  

The Film franchise has been somewhat dead in the water during the past couple of years only to lift up for air for short periods of time with the release of novels, video games, and the short films.  

All very good but a bit chaotic in regards to where the films are headed.  The novels offer so many great stories to pull from for film.  Alien: Resurrection grew on me over time and was better to watch after reading the novelization.  A continuation from there or in an area in the other novels would be just fine for film.  

Really, anything would be just fine because we got squat now and the Disney+ strategy to send you elsewhere to watch an Alien film SUCKS.

It SUCKS!!!!

dk

Dec-12-2019 2:41 PM

Ingeniero That is one big reason to own the DVDs/BRs. Buy once and watch at one's convenience.

ignorantGuy

Dec-12-2019 8:08 PM

Ingeniero Disney+ is oriented towards family friendly stuff, so it is pretty obvious why a series about the rape monster is not there. Don't forget that Hulu is fully controlled and majority-owned by Disney. That would be a more logical place for the series to be. 

 

dk

Dec-12-2019 9:01 PM

Over the past few weeks, at work, I hear people going ga ga over Disney+ and how they binge watch stuff. Then they look at me like a deer in the headlights when I ask if any Alien movies or Ash vs Evil Dead are on there (I know it is a Netflix exclusive series, but a lot of them have Netflix too). It seems very clear that the audience has zero interest in anything that appeals to darker subject matter. Whatever.

Ingeniero

Dec-13-2019 4:04 AM

That's right dk.  I have my cherished Blue-Ray Alien set and I bought the DVD set again too when it was announced they were going in the vault.  I (a spoiled person) needed to upload my digital pout because I couldn't pull up Alien in one of the various ways I "can" watch it.

A good point you make above ignorantGuy.  

I hope so (Hulu).  Disney took out long-term leases at Pinewood studios (source) and that gives them the room to film many things at once and pipe it to somewhere to watch.  

dk, the Alien series might only be noticed by the astute intellectual.  We, here, might take that for granted but it is hard to find in the real world.  

dk

Dec-13-2019 11:22 AM

Ingeniero I gave the 8 disc Quadrilogy to my grand daughter when I upgraded to the Anthology. She really wasn't into that kind of movie at the time but might grow into it. At any rate, it is nice to have a physical copy since you can never be sure when things in the cloud will just disappear.

Ingeniero

Dec-14-2019 4:47 AM

That is awesome dk.  We have to raise them right.

BigDave

Dec-14-2019 8:50 AM

I guess its a case of wait and see for Disney.... they did indicate they had a Interest in the Franchise as indeed there is a Market for the Product.....  But who is to say if thats only going to be as far as Merchandise, Toys/Games, Video Games and Comics/Novels.

When it comes down to Movies its a case of MONEY as they are a BIG Investment, and the Prequels have not been to every fans Cuppa-Tea!...... and Alien Covenant and the Direction it sets up is a Bitter Pill to Swallow.

There would be a HIGHER interest in ALIEN movies that gets back to what the Original 4 had done, more so the Action Element.  And this is kind of more UP their ALLEY (Disney), at the Moment it seems they are more interested in the likes of the Marvel Franchise, the Avatar.....

And we also have to know that Disney may not be so keen on R/18 Rated Material and they see more Profit in Franchises that are Action Based and are available to Wider Audience such as Star Wars.

We had TV Series Rumors... but again with a TV show it depends what Budget that Disney would INVEST!

The Madolorian is reported to cost $100M for 8 Episodes, but that could rise to $120M.  With that kind of Budget then YES you could do a ALIEN Series Justice, if its a 6-8 Episodes.  However STAR WARS is HUGE and the Alien Franchise just does not have the Wider Appeal and so i doubt they would invest HALF of that.

With a lower budget you would be limited to Special Effects, now some would say that ALIEN was great because you did-not see the Xenomorph much and you may-not need to show the Beast in Full....

But would the Mainstream Fanbase, and potential other Fans really want to see a TV Series with just 1-2 Monsters that are Hardly shown?  Or would they expect Multiple and Queens, and sadly if thats the case then a Xeno Count like between Aliens and Alien Resurrection would require a HIGH Budget or Below Standard Special Effects.

A OPTION could be to License out the Franchise like they do with the Games.... where they dont INVEST in the Project but they receive a SET FEE or/and a %

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Dec-14-2019 8:58 AM

In Context to that last post and the OT...

Then any Movie or TV Series that would cover the Engineers would be something that Disney would maybe feel would NOT make them much Interest and Money.... more so if we dont have the Prometheus Engineers and Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic look.... but this would COST more Money.

The Engineers and World like we saw in Alien Covenant would cost LESS... especially if we have a Limited use of the HR Giger Inspired Aesthetic or Technology thats Advanced...

Would a Stargate with Bald 7-8ft Humans looking like in Alien Covenant really attract the Fans?  I doubt it.

So any use of the Engineers would just be as a Limited Appearance where they would rock up in a Small Number in their Ships and Suits and basically just ACT like the Predators... so we would have like a AVP but replace the Predators with LV-223 Engineers.

But it would be expected that the Humans and Xenomorphs would take the PRIORITY.....

So i think regardless.... the Engineers are Dead in the Water.... apart from maybe a Cameo and would be to the Disney ALIEN Franchise..... just as important and shown as the EWOKS from Star Wars lol

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

I Raptus

Dec-14-2019 9:52 PM

Sorry Im late to the party but ditto what MonsterZero said :) 

 

Has the success or failure of Terminator: Dark Fate influenced Disney's position in any way?

BigDave

Dec-16-2019 5:10 PM

I Raptus i also agree with MonsterZero.

I think there was so much you could do with the Standard Xenomorph, once you have explained where they come from its a case of THEN WHAT?

MonsterZero goes on a lot about Characters being the main thing, i think that the PLOT is the Main thing and then its a case of getting the Characters to Portray the Plot and Execute it and the Scenes and so Poor Characters/Execution would be a Problem... so Getting them Right is Important.... in FACT.... Very Important, Special Effects, Plot all wont matter if the Characters and Portrayal/Execution is POOR.

And so the other Point they raised is Valid.... for a Series to work, be that TV or Series of Movies, especially as far as Sequels..... to Continue a Route of having to RESET and Start with NEW Characters in Each Movie is something that can Effect Fans...  it works best when a Strong Character/Characters Survive for the Sequel... but that does-not have to be the case as along as a Sequel has Characters we can connect with....  just (and i think MZ point) that you can get Invested in a Character in a Movie and then in the sequel you already have that Connection to Build Upon, instead of STARTING again with NEW Characters, because then you would have to wait until 40-60% of the Movie to get that Connection... were as if you carry a Good Character over from a Previous Movie you already have a Heavy Connection with them from the Get Go!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Dec-16-2019 5:32 PM

"What movies star is going to want to play a Engineer?"

I think it depends on the Plot..... it does-not have to be a Well Known Actor.....  with ALIEN the cast was basically NOT well known... same can be said for a number in Prometheus and Alien Covenant.

The Problem comes down to really what the PLOT is and HOW the Engineers will be played...

A all Engineer Scene does-not require any Major Special Effects or 7ft Actors..

The Problem really is how LONG would such scenes be, and HOW much Dialog, and then its a case of which Actors would want to play SMALL ROLES or ones where they have to SPEAK in a Alien/Ancient Language with Sub Titles.

And its how deep these scenes are and detailed and if MOST FANS would be interested....

Connecting with a ALIEN Species like the Engineers and seeing them have a number of scenes with Dialog and having to rely on Subtitles may make Fans not FEEL any Connection..

You would have to have scenes were the Engineers are interacting with Humans.... the Problems then become as Follows..

*Size:  if they dont use Special Effects and Camera Trickery (which LOTR did or even the Christmas Movie ELF) then your going to need 7ft+ Actors which could limit the Range/Quality of the Acting.

*Dialog: its then how do they Communicate? do we have to have a Android Interpreter or a Single Character who does this, and what about Subtitles!

Thats not to say they could NOT have tackled this...

But then its a case of WHEN and WHERE does these Scenes Take Place?  In the PAST (Flashback)

The best chance they had was with a Prometheus Sequel

Dr Shaw and David arrive at a Engineer World that is FAR FAR away, they discover only a Small Number of Engineers.

Then either David teaches Dr Shaw some Engineer during the Journey, or the Engineers have a way to allow Dr Shaw to understand them... and so we can have a FEW Lines in Sub-titles but then they all Speak English for Convenience to the Audience.

I think the BIG Problem is i dont think MANY of the Fans want to see our Engineers in a deep way, showing us what they Created, why they visited us and all that Chariots of the Gods stuff...

I think they would only be interested in Engineers like in Prometheus (LV-223) and their Bio-Mechanical Technology, but to a Greater Level than we saw in Prometheus.

And they would want to only see them Portrayed as BAD ASSES... like the Predators, and only interested in the Technology/Ships and Xenomorph/Experiment Connections and NOT what ever Shenanigans they get up to Visiting Worlds and handing out Star Maps/Teaching stuff.

So i think Fans would want to see our Engineers Return as in...

Rock Up in their Ships and with their Experiments and Unleash Hell....

Discover a Ship or Outpost and Activate a Hologram that shows us a Little, then we get a Flash Back Scene.

I dont think the Fans would want to be seeing much TALKING from the Engineers, just see them KILLING STUFF like we see with the Predators.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

Dec-28-2019 1:17 PM

It would be bad if the Engineer thing is killed off, that was one of the things that Prometheus did right. Unfortunately they were removed from AC apart from that short scene it the beginning. Hopefully Disney will not take this as the important thing is the Xeno, that would be a mistake.

Keep the Engineers, improve the characters, and keep a clearer tie to Alien compared to what Prometheus did. By Engineers I mean similar to those in Prometheus, not in Covenant because they looked less impressive in AC. I would like to see more about their culture, their science, religion, warfare and their connection to the monsters. Throw Alien Covenant in the trash-can and start from Prometheus is a possibility.

Not interested in a re-boot of the Alien movies. Maybe make something that is tied to the company in some way. An Engineer spin-off could be interesting. Remove the android angle because that is boooring, at least if it would be like it is now with no human characters to care about.

As long as they do not get the human characters right it will be dead to me but of course the story must be interesting too. I recently re-watched Alien 3 and I really like it, that was the last time that they did many human characters right. Even those that do not have big parts in it do their best to get it right. Hell even those that had small parts in Alien 3 made a better job than most of those in Prometheus and Covenant. Keep Scott far from the writing because that is not what he is good at. The humans and their journey and what they go through is what the whole franchise is about to me, not the Xenos or the Engineers.

Why can't they make characters that are at least close to the first three? Something is wrong about the characters in the prequels but I am not sure why. There has to be someone out there that can write the characters so they are at least somewhat relatable because we have not had that in this franchise for so long and that is why the prequels have failed this far, despite that they are good visually and that they have interesting themes but that is not enough for me.

The Xenos is not what it should be about but at least they should not be done by David, that he was responsible for the original version. Having him as the creator sucks and is one of the biggest mistakes that they have done in the prequels.

Having another queen is boring, it is good that the prequels have avoided that. The goo is interesting and I would rather have that than another movie where we see another queen that has been done to death if you ask me. As flawed as AC is at least they tried the spores which was interesting.

Please do not make a movie that retcons Alien 3, Alien Resurrection is another thing though.

BigDave

Jan-02-2020 3:28 PM

". By Engineers I mean similar to those in Prometheus, not in Covenant because they looked less impressive in AC. I would like to see more about their culture, their science, religion, warfare and their connection to the monsters"

I think discovering some of these things would be Interesting but i dont think we can IGNORE the Planet 4 Engineers, i think we have to EXPLORE as to WHY they looked different.

I think the Prometheus Engineers are more like the Replicants were, and so a Hubris Tale about how those Engineers either Created a Sub-Creation to Carry Out Tasks... or that another Group of Engineers had Evolved themselves..

I think either such ARC could be how to expand on the Engineers.

We can also see that our FUTURE is to Carry Out the same Hubris in the Creation of David, or IF some Humans would Genetically Engineer themselves as a Super-Human Race.

In either case then Mankind would be seen as Inferior and a PLOT by these Genetically Engineered Humans or AWOL Synthetics could be a likely Outcome...

And so maybe the same Happened between those LV-223 Engineers and the ones on Planet 4?

If we look at David's Story... i think this would and should be CLOSE to the STORY of the LV-223 Engineers.

LV-223 Engineers Rebel, and they TRY and Create something NEW that is NOT in the Image of their Inferior Creators who they may find a Mockery..   The LV-223 Experiments are BORN!

The same Process happens to David, and he takes the Engineers Experiments to Further Create something that is NOT in the image of his Creator... and the Planet 4 Experiments are BORN!

The Hierarchy of the Engineers Return, they Discover how Mankind had Created a Superior Being.. (David) and how this Superior Being had Created a more Superior Destroyer (Xenomorph)

And this incoming Species (or LV-223 Type Engineers) then decide to Create a Amalgamation of David and his Xenomorph.... on LV-223

But someone ATTEMPTS to Prevent this and DESTROYS LV-223 but ONE Ship manages to Escape but the Destruction of LV-223 Creates a Temporary Tear in Space/Time that sends this SHIP to Crash on LV-426 some Thousands of Years ago.

I feel thats the BEST way to Take the Engineers and PLOT now...

We can have another Movie SET after Alien 3 or Alien R where some Humans will END-UP on another Very Very Distant Engineer/Space Jockey World to Expand on them more.

I dont think some Fans would want this, and i dont think Disney would bother... they would rather have Revelations that the Xenomorph is a Ancient Parasitic Egg Laying Organism the Space Jockey Discovered...

And it will be about QUEENS and EGGS and Marines.

I would say the Engineers are DEAD!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Chris

Jan-09-2020 6:39 PM

Disney would be foolish to waste the David character established by Prometheus and Alien: Covenant. Ironically, after Covenant landed in theaters, the consensus seemed to be that the beast WAS cooked after all and that fans and audiences actually wanted to see more of what Ridley originally set out to do with Prometheus. It's unfortunate Fox caved to the will of those criticizing the lack of Xenomorph-mayhem in Prom.

I don't think Alien is dead in the water - it's too big of a property to deny and Disney will want to recoup some of their investment - they paid a pretty penny to buy out Fox's film assets.

Keep in mind - they are still releasing the next few Avatar sequels which have had zero interest for almost a decade now. I see them developing another film and likely a Disney+ series like previously rumored in the near future. It was 5 years between Prometheus and Alien: Covenant. It's only been 3 years since Covenant released - don't stress.

Thoughts_Dreams

Jan-10-2020 3:39 AM

Chris

They don't have to throw him away totally but reduce his role and make better human characters. Sorry but I have no feelings for a rape-y robot. If I want to watch a movie about robots, I would watch Terminator. Now, I respect that people have different opinions about it but if we watch how many people watched Covenant I would say that the interest was not that great, at least you can agree with me on that one, right?

Ridley thought that the beast was cooked, I would like to see data that supports that the fans think so. I think that they can try different monsters and not have the actual Xeno in it but I am not tired of it. What I am tired of is poorly written and/or executed human characters and the total focus on a crazy robot. To me it has always been about the human journey (which I figured out after thinking about what I enjoy about the alien movies and why some of them do not work).

The Engineers are interesting but they threw that aside because they thought that people wanted Xenos. I looked around the www and saw more complaints about characters doing stupid things, less people seemed concerned about the lack of Xenos. Fox misunderstood it if you ask me.

"It's only been 3 years since Covenant released - don't stress."

If I would be a fan of Covenant I would be worried but I am not. They should either cut off the prequels or make better human characters and have less David, I am tired of the android story.

According to Box Office Mojo we can see Alien Covenant made less than Prometheus.

Prometheus https://www.boxofficemojo.com/release/rl1063945729/

AC https://www.boxofficemojo.com/release/rl696026625/

If the android story is so fantastic why did the profits decline that much from one movie to another? With that in mind it would be fairly stupid to continue to have the focus on a crazy robot even though I respect that some people are interested in David. Art is subjective so that is alright if you have another opinion but I do not agree about this topic.

If we look at Tomatometer for audience score Prometheus gets 68 percent, and Covenant gets 55.

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/prometheus_2012

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/alien_covenant

Box office RT $74,255,908 https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/alien_covenant

Box office RT $126,464,904 https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/prometheus_2012

Both the general score for Prometheus is higher than Covenant and also Covenant made less of a profit, this is both according to BOM and RT. Some people like the android story but if we look at the numbers it seems to me that a lot of people did not. Because it is like a franchise where they compare profits from one movie to another it would be kind of dumb to make another movie about an artificial megalomaniac/rapist. The interest for another crazy robot movie just does not seem to be there in general which to me is a good thing. At least AC is better than the AVP-movies and AR (not sure if I prefer it to Prometheus since the amount of well-written characters are about the same in both).

Thoughts_Dreams

Jan-10-2020 3:59 AM

BD: Sure I do not say that we must ignore the ones on Planet 4 but I would prefer if the focus is on those in Prometheus since they seem more interesting. At the same time I also think that it could be interesting to see why they look different. My idea is that the big ones are like enhanced ones that carry out warfare while those that we saw in AC were like civilians.

It is more to discover than queens and marines if you ask me.

"And so maybe the same Happened between those LV-223 Engineers and the ones on Planet 4?"

That might be the case, if they make it interesting then sure why not. There could be different reasons for it but as long as it is interesting and makes sense then I am all for it.

"IF some Humans would Genetically Engineer themselves as a Super-Human Race."

That could be interesting if they have that in the franchise and the Engineers discover that. Imagine what kind of trouble that would mean for the humans. Sure it would reduce the role of the Xeno but that does not need to be a bad thing since I look at it as being about mankind.

"(David) and how this Superior Being had Created a more Superior Destroyer (Xenomorph)"

Logically it makes sense but I do not want David to be the creator of the Xeno. I would like the Engineers to be those that create it or that make a superior version of it. Maybe neither David nor the Engineers made the first one?

"But someone ATTEMPTS to Prevent this and DESTROYS LV-223 but ONE Ship manages to Escape but the Destruction of LV-223 Creates a Temporary Tear in Space/Time that sends this SHIP to Crash on LV-426 some Thousands of Years ago."

Perhaps that could work, movies have to work logically otherwise it is like "huh?", or "this is boring", or "this doesn't make sense" which is probably what a lot of people think about the prequels right now.

BigDave

Jan-10-2020 3:49 PM

@Chris

I agree i dont think this is the END of the Franchise, i am sure we would get another ALIEN Movie eventually, the Subject i was talking about with he OT is that i dont think we would ever Explore the Engineers Background much as far as Depth, such as the WHOLE.. Gardeners of Space, the Chariots of the Gods..

And so i fee IF we do see them again, it would only be limited to seeing them just as we saw the Engineers in the Fire and Stone Comics and so we would just get these LV-223 Types who just Rock Up and Kick Ass....  and who will NOT ask Questions or Give Answers.....

And so i think we would UNLIKELY see more Interaction or Information about the Engineers, than we did with the Predators in the Various Movies they had appeared in.

Which i fee would be a Shame.....

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jan-10-2020 4:11 PM

"Ridley thought that the beast was cooked, I would like to see data that supports that the fans think so"

I think Ridley Scott was looking at it from how OVERDONE the Beast has been done, and i dont think he means as FAR as the Movies Alone.... we have seen Xenomorphs kind of done to Death... the Traditional Kind.

In regards to Movies the General Public would not get the same Impression of the Xenomorph that was from the First TWO Movies....  to a degree he is RIGHT in that Alien Resurrection did kind of Reduce the Xenomorph, i mean the Aliens were dispatched by the Team of Essentially Space Pirates...  and the Queen well she was KILLED by the disappointing New Born with EASE!

Did the Xenomorphs gain back their Fearsome Reputation in AVP?  Not so much.... and we best NOT mention AVPR!

So what RS was looking at is there is only so MUCH you can do with the Xenomorph before you have to think about other things.. something New/Fresh and Unexplored, which is WHY he felt the Engineers/Space Jockey should be the way to go....  Especially if the Xenomorph to them was just a Engineered Bio-Weapon... we could look at what else is there about the SPACE JOCKEY and their Agenda besides Eggs and Queens...

IF they had just done a Alien Prequel that 100% showed what happened to the Derelict and we got the Xenomorphs Origins instead of Prometheus and so we HARDLY touch upon the Space Jockey..... then ONCE you have the Xenomorph Origins and HOW/WHEN/WHY they Ended Up on the Derelict, its a case of WHATS NEXT?

As far as the Xenomorph!

The Prequel Plot opened up the Engineers, a Ancient Race who had Seeded Many Worlds.... HOW MANY other Races had they Created?  How many Conflicts had they been involved in and How Many Horrors had they Created/Unleashed.

Rather than Confine it to the BOX of ALIEN and Egg, Face Hugger, Chest Buster, Xenomorph and Queen with Very Limited Variation between them.

Ridley Scott had said prior and after Alien Covenant that it was maybe a mistake to have Drifted Too Far from the Beast, he felt you could give it a FEW more Rounds, but you have to Evolve Him, you have to look at other Alternatives and ways of Procreation.

I think he is Right with that Statement...

But you will have Fanboys who dont like Change.... who wont Accept Change, like with Star Wars there was Complaints about the Clone Troopers, the First Order Troopers and Sith Troopers because some Fanboys just like their EP4-EP6 versions and so Rogue One pleased them!

A bit of CHANGE is Good as long as you dont STRAY too FAR away so you can see some Connection with the Originals.

Regarding ALIEN it is about the Characters as we will be seeing the Horror through their Perspective, i think with ALIEN and ALIEN 3 you could replace the Xenomorph with a Neomorph or Deacon and the Movies would still have WORKED!

I think with ALIENS and AVP etc then they would not work as well as the Xenomorphs.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jan-10-2020 4:40 PM

Regarding the Engineers....

I think Thoughts_Dreams that indeed the Bio-Mechanical Engineers from Prometheus seemed more Interesting.

They looked more Superior to Humans, its a Shame they never looked like 9-10ft Tall, but they looked Enigmatic none the less....

Our Planet 4 Engineers did look too close to Humans...

I think there is a STORY to be Told regarding the History and Differences between them, that can be explored in a Number of Ways...

I think you can have BOTH kinds of Engineers, and it would Work, but they have to MERGE the Ancient looking Planet 4 and the more Technological LV-223 Aesthetics...

Planet 4 did have some signs of Technology and we NEVER got to look inside every Building and so Inside we may have seen some?   David's notes did seem to show they relied more on Ancient Technology for the most Part.

They was basically acting like the Engineers version of say Amish Community and so maybe discovering WHY would be interesting.

As Mankind Evolves... we Embrace Technology, we do not devote ourselves to Religion or Rituals anymore, the way we ACT and Live is Different compared to say 500+ Years ago.

While there are many Benefits to HOW we Live today, there are Downfalls.... Imagine in 500 Years what we could be like?

The Elites Genetically Engineer themselves or Create Clone Bodies to USE when they Die/Injured (Movies like The Sixth Day and The Island) what becomes of the Rest of Mankind?

Do we Engineer Bio-Weapons that get out of Control, like what happened on LV-223 or like Various other Movies that lead to Disease etc... you could say like the Movie I am Legend

Do we Eventually Nuke our Planet to Death.... reducing it to like the Movie Planet of the Apes 1968 or does the Fall Out create Mutants and the Few Human Survivors are Pitted with the Few Mutants for who will take over the Earth?

Do we Genetically Experiment on Apes and get like the Planet of the Apes Reboot?  Or do we Genetically Engineer Super Soldiers who then TURN on us... much like a Universal Solider meets Blade Runner?

Or do we take A.I and Robotics too FAR and get a Terminator, I-Robot and Matrix like Scenario

Various Sci-Fi have touched on such HUBRIS of all of the above.... such Potential Miss-givings for Playing GOD!

None of these Threats applied to the Dark Ages before the Advent of Mankinds Industrial/Technological Revolution.

But ALL of them cant be RULED out if we let Science get too Out of Hand...  However IF we all abandoned our Technology and Science and Lived like the AMISH there would be NO THREAT of these things coming to PASS!

Could those Planet 4 Engineers have done the Same... after a Calamity they decided to Abandon Most of their Technology and Ways and Revert back to Ritual/Religious Ways?

Now lets IMAGINE if one of those Scenarios had Befallen Earth in the FUTURE but before things WENT so FAR to END Mankind.... some of us Escaped and onto a NEW Island or Planet like the Covenant Ship was attempting.

Could we decide to then ABANDON our Technology/Ways that we had Evolved to from say the 1800's On-wards?   To DO-SO in Order that the Calamity cant be Repeated again?

Maybe we would?

If we was Technologically the same as we was prior to say 1500 you could say the WORLD and Total Population would be NO-WHERE near the Dangers of Extinction or Irreversible Damage as we are NOW.... Technology lead us to this Path we are on NOW..

So similar could be used to Explain the Planet 4 Engineers, the other Explanations are they are a Colony of Genetic Stock for Seeding before things went to POT.

Or also that the LV-223 Engineers are either a Created Sub-Creation like the Replicants and David are to Mankind who have Rebelled... or they are a Faction of Engineers who Engineered themselves as Superior and became Perverted with their Quest to Enhance themselves and become the Ruling Faction of Engineers.

There is a HISTORY of the Engineers as far as the Planet 4 and LV-223 Engineers that could be Explored in a Number of Ways....   SADLY i cant ever see us Exploring it all.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

Jan-19-2020 3:44 AM

BD

If he just means the original then maybe so, I like to see new variations of it though which I think that the prequels have managed to do despite of all their faults. Regarding comics and so on that might have contributed to it but I am not one of those that look up things that are considered expanded universe kind of things.

I am sorry but I laugh when you mention AVPR and for a good reason because it is a joke. Not only is it a joke if you look at the other alien movies but it is crap if you look at it alone.

The Engineers were interesting but I think that they should have had a better connection to the SJ and the monster. To have it just as an engineered bio-weapon could cheapen the Xeno but it could be interesting if it is done right but it is just too bad that it was not. I would rather have it being connected to the Engineers rather than having David being responsible for it.

"..... then ONCE you have the Xenomorph Origins and HOW/WHEN/WHY they Ended Up on the Derelict, its a case of WHATS NEXT?"

I agree that you can expand on it but you also need decent writers and a director that does nor interfere with the writing-process. You got to make it interesting and make sense and unfortunately they failed.


"Ridley Scott had said prior and after Alien Covenant that it was maybe a mistake to have Drifted Too Far from the Beast, he felt you could give it a FEW more Rounds, but you have to Evolve Him, you have to look at other Alternatives and ways of Procreation."

It depends on how you do it sure it was an alien prequel or maybe you could have called it a spin-off. A prequel to Alien means that you put more focus on the Xeno and a spin-off means to have less so the
Engineers fit into that.

"Regarding ALIEN it is about the Characters as we will be seeing the Horror through their Perspective, i think with ALIEN and ALIEN 3 you could replace the Xenomorph with a Neomorph or Deacon and the Movies would still have WORKED!"

I totally agree

You mentioned Star Wars, I like to see different things as long as they make sense. You mentioned different troopers and I think that is something interesting that they have done this far.

"I think there is a STORY to be Told regarding the History and Differences between them, that can be explored in a Number of Ways…"

As long as the story and characters are alright then I am open to it.

"I think you can have BOTH kinds of Engineers, and it would Work, but they have to MERGE the Ancient looking Planet 4 and the more Technological LV-223 Aesthetics…"

It kind of depends on how you do it, I think that The Lord of the Rings is a way to make it right. Maybe it could be interesting to see why the Engineers acted different, different kinds of living. That should have been better dealt with instead of just having David making some notes.

 

"Could we decide to then ABANDON our Technology/Ways that we had Evolved to from say the 1800's On-wards?   To DO-SO in Order that the Calamity cant be Repeated again?
Maybe we would?"

You could keep some and throw some away, it depends on what you need it for. I do not think that you can separate technology from the kind of society that you live in. Maybe you could have that in a movie in a way although I am not sure how it would be done but there were some interesting things in the buildings that we saw in Alien Covenant for even though we did not see a lot.

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