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4 simple ways to fix the Progenitor David issue!

4 simple ways to fix the Progenitor David issue!

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Gavin

Sep-27-2019 10:36 PM

Prometheus may have had its flaws but its narrative was ambiguous enough that it could be explored in a plethora of ways. Unfortunately because of Ridley Scott's and Fox's desire to appease the knee jerk reactions of social media critics we got Alien: Covenant, and within it the most controversial and divisive idea imaginable; that David created the Alien.

This idea has in one single swipe fundamentally stripped the entire franchise of its mystery, of its essence. For me, Alien was synonymous with Lovecraftian terror; the Alien is an embodiment of the cold, dark, unforgiving, and unknown emptiness of space. Having David, who was created by man, be the progenitor of the Alien makes the Alien indirectly our own creation, which in relation to the franchise makes mankind the center of the universe. This is further compounded by having the only other alien race be that of our "alleged" creators the Engineers, who for all intents and purposes are ubermensch, and therefore might as well as have come from Krypton.

I'm sure there are some that will argue that what has been done has been done and we should all just accept that our childhoods have been irreparably ruined, and there will be those that may argue the benefits and advantages of having the Alien, by extension, being our own creation. I, however, choose to believe that there is salvation and that either in Alien: Awakening or in another future Alien movie it is possible to undo the damage that Alien: Covenant has wrought. And I believe this is possible through one of the following or similar scenes...

LV-426

In supplemental material to Prometheus it states that before the Prometheus mission was launched toward LV-223 that Weyland Corp had intercepted the S.O.S./Warning signal being transmitted from LV-426. This clearly discredits Davids claim as the Aliens creator, but to be considered canon this would need to be shown on screen. One simple way could be an expositional scene set before or during the Prometheus' flight in which someone looks at a star chart and we are shown LV-426 and some visualization of the signal.

Planet 4

In Alien: Covenant Walter corrects David stating that Ozymandias was written by (Percy) Shelley not (Lord) Byron as David had previously asserted, bringing to light not only the error of Davids previous assertion but also the possibility that David is not as infallible as he presumes to be. This is compounded by promotional material for Prometheus (the David 8 Commercial) in which David's "love" for Elizabeth Shaw is revealed to be merely an emulation, and therefore invalid. David claims he loved Shaw, but did not (as he is incapable). He lied. Therefore it is possible that he also lied about creating the Alien. This lie could be revealed by showing Davids work to reverse engineer a specimen he discovered, or by showing where he discovered the specimen itself.

David

A slightly more interesting concept could be that with Walter having made clear the error of his assertions that David may have an existential crisis, during which he reveals his lies. David is an emulation, a soulless copy. He cannot love, nor create. But the idea that he can love and hate, that he can create and destroy has been seeded within him either by belief or instruction, and naively, or because he is programmed to David believes these to be true. In realizing his true nature as an empty imitation, it is possible that David may just simply admit his deception.

The Space Jockey

IMO this would be the boldest, and therefore the best way to reveal Davids lie - by simply showing the fate of the Space Jockey. We could see the Earth 2000 years ago. Maybe some Romans in Jerusalem as a shooting star passes overhead. A shooting star revealed to be a Juggernaut within which we see its pilot, preferably NOT an Engineer falling victim to one of the cargo of Facehuggers within its lower decks. We then see the Juggernaut settle on LV-426 and its pilot transmit its warning before succumbing to the Chestburster within.

41 Responses to 4 simple ways to fix the Progenitor David issue!

ignorantGuy

Sep-28-2019 12:18 AM

@Gavin In your proposal David could find a way to go back in time to place the eggs on LV-426 and being chestburster. This would be controversial but I propose for him to be also crucified on the cross first to offend even more people.

MonsterZero

Sep-28-2019 9:16 AM

 

 

As it stands now: David created the pod that opened on Kane?

Logic says: Space Jockey was chestburst by a queen  (or a tiny little David that pops out and builds a lab that produces the eggs...)  who laid the eggs?  

 I don't imagine David travelling around the galaxy planting egg pods on random derelict alien spacecraft.

David "One must have hobbies.."

I can conceive David returning to Lv-223 in a juggernaut(probably knows the location of many Engineer colonies He's already visited 2 planets with these ships!)

 

I'd just like to hear one solid argument for David planting the eggs and I could die happy!

Leto

Sep-28-2019 10:07 AM

My theory of a Black Marker. Like in Dead Space. The Black Goo theory.

 

Black Goo is striving to evolve and develop in all ways. It gives rise to many hybrid life forms, but strives only for one thing - the form of Alien.

David thinks he created Alien... And he is right! He create Alien like many many creators before him! (Like Space Jockey/Engineers) They all create the same Alien in the end.

Why? Black Goo itself "suggests" the best solutions for evolution. David thought he was manipulating the pathogen, but actually the pathogen manipulated him! His role is just to be hands.

dk

Sep-28-2019 11:26 AM

The Black Marker idea is interesting and gives an even more alien and sinister aspect to the goo itself. It manipulates any creature that tinkers with it sort of like Dead Space. However, it might need its own movie to set that notion up.

MonsterZero

Sep-28-2019 3:30 PM

Before we do the Black Marker idea(I like the idea btw)..

 

We need to know what a synthetic mind is.... Is it organic? Just memory chips? ?  Can it be modified by a biological substance? can the memory be Uploaded, downloaded, updated.... or even changed very easily?

Is David acting crazy because he came in contact with it(black goo)?

 

dk

Sep-29-2019 2:16 PM

If the pathogen can affect both synthetics and humans, it would likely be working at something both share, such as water or some mineral/electrolyte in the brain/CPU?

BigDave

Sep-29-2019 3:30 PM

"Having David, who was created by man, be the progenitor of the Alien makes the Alien indirectly our own creation, which in relation to the franchise makes mankind the center of the universe."

I think we could look at it as the Engineers too though, as they Created Us... so without them there would be NO David, and this is kind of WHY they went that route, to show the Hubris of Sub-Creation, in that if they NEVER created us, we would NEVER had created David who would NEVER had created the Xenomorph.

So if Fits Perfectly with the Themes... but another Theme was the Persuit of Perfection, and so that could have played a role  by having David merely PERFECT what the Engineers had tried to.... THUS it would be that David had not Created the Xenomorph at all... but a Superior Version, but even if we went this route.. Fans would have NOT accepted it still as they would only had wanted to see David created a Useless Knock Off!

I would not BLAME everyone..  Ridley Scott could have Rejected FOX but then FOX could have just replaced him with a Director who would Agree with any Changes to go for a Direct Prequel.  Who knows who was the Advocate of the David Creator Plot.... maybe RS has to take some of the Flack for that....  i get the Impression he wanted to GO AWAY from the Beast, and be more about the Engineers, so being Forced to go and give Fans $"£%$^ Xenomorphs comes across as him not being a FAN and so maybe the David did it could have been a Big Finger to the Fans who wanted Xenomorphs and Queens?

And so it then comes down to a BE CAREFUL in what you ASK for....  so that in Hindsight the Franchise should have left the Xenomorph a Mystery.

They should have known that Curve-ball would Potentially be very Divisive!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Sep-29-2019 4:03 PM

I think a lot of Problems come from HOW the Prequels intended to explore the Space Jockey and Xenomorph.

Was the Space Jockey a Very Alien Species (Regardless if it was a Space Suit, a Skeleton or a Bio-Mechanical Fiend) if the Space Jockey had NO Connection to Mankind, then any Prequel would have had a Limited Capacity to how to Further Explore the Species ONCE we had given HOW the Eggs came to be...

So then it would had been HOW do the Humans Fit into the Story to Reveal who the Space Jockey was and what those Eggs where?  If they went for a Lovecraftian idea, then its HOW do the Humans Arrive to a Place where we can have the Space Jockey Revealed

By Coincidence?  so some Humans arrive at a World to Survey for Colonization or Mining and Uncover Ancient Pyramids and Derelict Ships?

Or they arrive because they Detected the SOS of the Space Jockey from Thousands of Years ago?   This would make it similar to ALIEN, and so where do the Space Jockey come in?  They could have a Separate Part of the Ship where some Space Jockey are in Cryo-sleep and they are Awoken!

But then HOW do they Communicate with the Humans? do they just go POSTAL?  And they cant Communicate and see us as Insignificant maybe they could realize that IF they discover where we came from maybe we could make GOOD HOSTS for the Xenomorph.

So then its a case of WHERE do you go with a Sequel, how do you Explore the Space Jockey Race and where they are in the Galaxy and what their Reaction to us would be NOW?  And then WHERE are they in the Galaxy and WHY have we not seen them in the Franchise apart from the Dead Pilot?

What we would be getting is Basically a Independence Day!  but with that the ALIEN did manage to Communicate via  Telepathically connecting to Dr Okun's Mind, and use him to Communicate, and so any ALIEN Space Jockey maybe could have used similar to be able to Communicate which could OPEN up a possible way to explore them in a Sequel

But Jon Spaights felt that to reveal the Space Jockey as Humanoids who Created us, would have made the Plot Easier and the Archeological Findings of Holloway and Dr Shaw (Watts) was a Ideal Plot Convenience to get us to come across these Engineers and what they was up to, and also make a Sequel open to Explore them from their Home-world.

It was not a BAD PLOT... it Opened up the Franchise to be more than Limited to Ripley and Queens, the Problem was that by the Time of Prometheus what we had was too much Ambiguity to HOW the Xenomorph Connected and its Origins and also having NO such Monsters Running Rampage..

Which then FOX felt they needed to go and Give Fans this and make Alien Covenant... which was a MISTAKE!

Prior to that we could see there was a CONNECTION which just never got it Spoon Fed, the Black Goo and Experiments and Xenomorph were Connected.. but it was never Specified HOW...

And there are ways they could have DONE this without having to go for a Literal Prequel that would make the Derelict something that was NOT Ancient!

I think it may be Clutching at Straws to use Davids Mistakes to make him Unreliable and also the Prometheus DVD Material and Website about a Acknowledgement of something on LV-426 prior to the Prometheus Mission.

I think LETO'S attempts to suggest the Pathogen would always Evolve to something that would become the Xenomorph on ONE hand is INTERESTING.. maybe it could work... on the other it LIMITS the Franchise to being about the Xenomorph in its Iconic Form.

Davids notes and Workshop does show that he had made a Lot of Effort in the Hybridization of many Organisms Traits to create the Xenomorph.

But NEXT i will look at ways to maybe Fix this.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Sep-29-2019 4:20 PM

So with the CRAZY DAVE!

The Franchise as far as Prometheus is a telling of Sub-Creation, a telling of how Knowledge can Shape a Creation, and also WHY the Paradise Lost is also mentioned by RS as far as Intentions...

Its a tale to tell of HOW if your going to Sub-Create then there are a FEW things to be Careful of.

*How Much Knowledge and Free-will your Creation can gain.

*How Superior your Creation is in contrast to the Creator.

*Allowing your Sub-Creation the Ability to Procreate.

So with David it seems that Weyland allowed his Personal David to have more Free-will to be allowed more Human Emotions of a Program that aims to Replicate them...

If David is starting to or has Complex Emotions or a Program that is meant to Replicate them, then in either Case, these could Overwhelm him... and being Stranded ALONE for Many Many Years with NO Maintenance or Contact could have a Profound Effect on the Mental Stability of David or his Programing.

I think the THEMES we see in Prometheus could be the Rescue Point we need...

Did the Engineers Create us? are those Engineers on Planet 4 and LV-223 the Same?  You see if its about Creation and Sub-Creation and the Attempt to Perfect Something...

Then you have to ask HOW would those in Charge of the Engineers think about how a In-Superior Creation in Mankind, had Created a Superior Creation in David!

Weyland wanted to be seen as a God and Felt his Creation of David was Justification to be Granted Immortality when ironically he had Created Immortality in David (to a Degree).  So Weyland had SURPASSED what his Creators had done!

If those LV-223 Engineers are likewise a Sub-Creation of the Engineers, and so like Replicants to them, and it was the LV-223 Engineers who had Attempted to Create Horrors that are Related to the Xenomorph (Deacon).... what would those in Charge and above the Engineers make of David who has also gone on and Perfected something from the Engineers Attempts on LV-223.

So we have those above the Engineers who are looking a Sub-Creation in David who is Superior to his Creators (Mankind) and likely Planet 4 Engineers to, who has Created something Superior to what those LV-223 Engineers had been doing.

Such beings could maybe look at David and his Creation and see GREAT POTENTIAL in these Sub-Creations....

They could then ATTEMPT to make a Amalgamation of Both to get us to the Xenomorph from ALIEN.

The Themes of Prometheus are about Sub-Creation, and Rebellion and so does this START with the Engineers?  so i think a Revelation of some other Species above them who the Engineers Rebelled against could be the way to Change things... this Species does-not have to be VERY HUMAN at all ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Sep-30-2019 7:20 AM

I agree. Two very bad decisions:

  1. Turning the fossilized (or skeletal) Space Jockey into a suit.
  2. Making David the creator of the xenomorph.

But, if there's a will, there's a way. There is a turning back, at least when it comes to David (still ambiguous). He is delusional and everything has been done long before him (and they renounced it).

Leto

Sep-30-2019 8:28 AM

So, Alien: Covenant is a cryo-nigthmare of Elizabeth Show? In next film she wake up, and with David, will discover the Engineer's home world.

Gavin

Sep-30-2019 9:32 AM

@ IgnorantGuy

Don't give Scott any ideas.

@ MonsterZero,

The Queen has been done to death. And I expect if Scott makes David the Space Jockey and the eggs the Covenants 2000+ colonists, that general audiences and most fans will riot. The backlash would likely be worse than what happened with The Last Jedi.

@ BigDave,

Let's be clear, intentions, inference, and connotations aside, it is not definitively stated anywhere in Prometheus and Alien: Covenant that the Engineers created humankind, and furthermore the ambiguous way in which the themes of creation and rebellion are handled while inviting speculation from the fanbase is no more than an empty attempt to create a sense of magnificence where there is none.

And the hard truth is that while we, the fans overanalyze and attempt to reconcile this new mythology into the Alien franchise, general audiences (the most important factor when considering another movie) see the shoehorning of these overly bloated narrative additions and needless retconning and reimagining. Most general audiences see the Engineers and the Space Jockey as separate entities, and most general audiences find the assertion that David created the Alien as preposterous.

James Camerons Queen was an addition to the franchise and one that subsequently became the focus of the franchise. Meanwhile, the original Alien while revered has been forgotten. Whereas, these prequels rather than return to the original Alien and explore the possibility that what we saw wasn't all that the creature had up its sleeves, instead Scott and co. thought it prudent to completely ignore the original Alien and reimagine it to fit a new yet shallow narrative hiding behind ambiguity and false grandeur.

What the franchise needs is a course correction. The Queen theme has been overcooked, and the Engineer theme has, for most (but admittedly not all), failed to resonate with audiences. We need to revisit the original Alien, its themes of cosmic horror and its sense of mystery.

@ Leto,

The Markers from Dead Space are, for all intents and purposes, the same as the monoliths from 2001: A Space Odyssey, although with more obviously nefarious intents. Don't get me wrong it's a good idea as 2001 was one of the many influences on the original Alien, but I think the "prop" in question and its origins need to be handled carefully, unless we will just be trading the Space Jockeys and/or Engineers, and David for another nefarious creator of the Alien.

 

MonsterZero

Sep-30-2019 12:42 PM

Well...You’ll have to admit that David has set a precedent about storing monster embryo's in his stomach. I don’t think it would be that big of a leap to think he could/would store a queen embryo?

 

Engineers/space marines are hot on his trail….he swallows his masterpiece (queen embryo), safer than carrying it, he evades the posse, escapes Lv-223...but the queen hatches(for some reason…) (( I’d rather have David facehugged to produce the burst..but this would do ))

 

There is also evidence that the pathogen fossilizes it’s victims, the murdered Engineers on Planet 4 look dessicated and old.


Now …..I think this is a terrible idea, but I think it would work.

MonsterZero

Sep-30-2019 1:51 PM

Actually...it would be cool for Covenant 2 to open with David getting facehugged! Then calmly removing the facehugger(or letting it leave after awhile)....then show David vomiting the xeno placenta and examining it.        Could have multiple scenes of David letting the facehugger impregnate him. Rinse and repeat.

Gavin

Sep-30-2019 2:01 PM

@ MonsterZero,

In all honesty, I think that would make for a better ending. Whereby after being defeated by the Engineers David finds himself alone with a lone egg. Then, as he strokes it and smiles contemplating how clever he was to keep this egg from the Engineers the egg opens and in a moment David realizes the Engineers have made him flesh and that he has lost.

BigDave

Sep-30-2019 5:35 PM

@Gavin

I feel here lies the Major Problem with the Franchise, there was that MYSTERY and it should have been Kept as Such!

Because what we have is a Evolving Franchise, each Movie becomes Divisive, there are some who think that Cameron had Ruined the Franchise in how the Xenomorph was Expanded, and yet this route is what made the Franchise more Recognizable.

We had 4 Movies, it has been a LONG time since the Last some 12 Years before it was a case of HOW do you go back to the Franchise, which we have seen the Xenomorph over and over, in Various Medium be it Games, Comics, Novels, the Movies and AVP's, so its a case of WHERE do you go NEXT?

Nobody had ever EXPLAINED or Explored the Xenomorph Origins and WHO the Space Jockey was.....  

And here lies the PROBLEM.... because how ever you Answer those Questions, you are likely to NOT please every Fan....  Every Fan will have what they feel is the Right Way to have done this and that, every Fan could Interpret things differently.

Its a CASE of WHO really should Decide?  The Fans? do we take a POLL about what we want?  Sadly thats NOT how a Movie is made, this kind of Back Lash can Effect a Sequel though...

Should Dan O'Bannon had been Consulted and his Vision something to have looked at?  Sadly he Passed Away during the Period of when they was working on the Story for a Prequel.

Should Ridley Scott had been given more Control, as he was the First Director of the First Movie, and every other Movie Continued with a Different Director, what kind of Vision would RS have?  Seemed if he had made a ALIEN 2 it would have been Very Different.

Then we have David Giler and Walter Hill who also had a lot of Influence on the Franchise (more than most) do we look at what they would want to do for a Prequel?

Should HR Giger had been given more Control, as he had some pretty much Very Lovecraftian Ideas/Take on the Franchise?

Or should it be the Fans? This is just a Problem as we would all have Different Ideas of how we would Proceed, and you will not get a Fan Inspired Direction that would Please all the Fans...

Ultimately it would be FOX who would have the Most Say!

A Prequel is always something of a Poisoned Chalice a Origins Story can always Disappoint as much as it could Please.  Especially if you are going to be doing something that Directly Connects because you are ALWAYS going to know how this ENDS...  it is Lucky that ALIEN is something that there is a lot of Mystery that is not going to be something we know Happens... but with such a Mystery you have the Chance that you will NEVER do it Justice.

I Personally think Prometheus had opened up a Avenue for the Franchise, and things Could have got more ALIEN in a Sequel and by that i dont mean Xenomorphs because ONCE you cover them again, and their Origins its whats NEXT?  You can come up with a Origin that can Expand and be Interesting, but in regards to ONCE you know HOW/WHERE/WHY there are those Eggs, then its what do you do NEXT?  Because the way the Xenomorph seems to be in the Franchise we have either a Invasive Parasitic Organism that had been Discovered and Saw the Potential to use as a Weapon (Same Agenda the Company had) or it is a Engineered or Re-Engineered Organism that is USEFUL as a Weapon due to its Invasive Parasitic Nature.

So its more a case of WHY as far as WHO would Create or Contemplate using such a Horrific Beast and their Motives that is the WAY to give us more and Expand the Franchise past Eggs, Queens and Ripley.

So it was the SPACE JOCKEY that is how we expand the Franchise, WHO was he, WHERE was he from, WHERE was he going? WHY that Cargo, WHERE did those Eggs come from? and HOW they came to be?

And this is the MYSTERY that in Hindsight should have remained as it was.....  but then its WHAT do you do with the Franchise if your NEVER going to touch upon those Questions?

I Felt Prometheus was a Decent Way Forwards... but there was a Few Things it should have done differently, (some Alien Organisms killing Folk, a little more clues to HOW a Xenomorph could come to be) and Taller Engineers.

I will Close this Part by saying that what Potential was Shown, had been Thrown Away in General with the Direction that Alien Covenant had taken!

There are Logistical and Convenient Choices made, that also had to be made with Prometheus because of the Simple Reason..... HOW do you have Human Characters pushed into this Cosmic Horror?

The the Back Bone Plots for Prometheus and Alien Covenant were BORN! just they could have done things differently if they had CLEVER Writers.... but ALAS!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Sep-30-2019 5:58 PM

With my Previous Post out of the way, lets look at the Evolution and HOW maybe these could have been Explored and Problems they Raised.

1) The Original Idea was a Tale about a Giant Alien Species (not Human like at all) who had Encountered a Pyramid on a Alien World, and Curiosity Killed the Cat... this Species had came across the Long Lost Remnants of a Ancient Species who had a Parasitic Life-Cycle.  After Falling Foul to the Spore/Egg stage of this Species the Giant Exploring Alien Species Survivor had Etched a Warning to Warn others of this Place, before they would Succumb to the Starbeast.

This O'Bannon's idea could have been Continued, but a lot had changed by the Time we got to ALIEN and so the only way this could have been Explored would just be a RE-HASH of Alien!  Well to a degree..   Because ALIEN had changed from Starbeast.....  what we had NOW is NOT a case of a Giant Species had Stumbled on these Eggs, what we have is a Connection!  The Aesthetic was Shared especially with the Ship and Xenomorph and so the Options would have been.

* Giant Alien Species (Space Jockey) discover the Ship and Cargo, and decide to Hijack them, where they Conveniently can Infuse with the Chair and are the Right Size.... well that would be SILLY!  But ALAS.. David managed to FLY a Ship ;)

* Giant Alien Species (Space Jockey) have either Created, or Re-Engineered those Eggs and the Derelict Technology for some Purpose.. likely as a Weapon... but against WHO?

* Giant Alien Species (Space Jockey) form some Symbiotic Relationship with the Xenomorph this is either Mutual or some Other Species would USE the Space Jockey for performing this Task... but to WHAT Benefit to the Space Jockey? is he merely a Slave?

2) As we Evolve it had been indicated that the Space Jockey was a Race who had Created the Xenomorphs as a Bio-Weapon..... THIS is where we really left off before the Prequels but could have explored Elements of (1).

What you then have is WHO had they intended this Weapon for, WHAT Conflict are they involved in?

Then its HOW do you introduce the Humans, and so WHY and HOW do a group of Humans End up at a Place that would give Answers to WHO the Space Jockey are, what was their Agenda and Purpose for those Eggs and WHERE those Eggs came from.

Then its HOW do you have them Interact?  Do we get Subtitles between the Space Jockey Aliens?  Do they have a way to Communicate with Humans? Or do we never see any Communication with Humans and we never get any Understanding of what the Space Jockey would be saying to Each Other.

What you have then is Basically WAR OF THE WORLDS.. where instead of THEY come to Earth, instead Human Space Explorers would Stumble Upon a Place where they ARE!

Once we have these ALIENS shown, and we know about the Eggs... its HOW do you Continue... do we explore more about the Space Jockey?  And HOW? Do we Forget about them and its back to EGGS and Chest Busting?

Its these kinds of Issues that made them come up with the Chariots of the Gods like Plot, which came at the Expensive of Sacrificing some of that Lovecratian Horror.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Sep-30-2019 6:42 PM

On a Serious Note!

We are in a Pickle....

Maybe the only Options really would be a REBOOT, or to Introduce another Species above the Engineers and make them more ALIEN and maybe we have to Write Off the Engineers and Xenomorph as NOT being the Most ALIEN thing to introduce/explore.

1) Where did the Engineers get their Technology From?

2) Where did the Black Goo come from and WHY does it seem to Create Organisms with Parasitic Traits and Aesthetic of the Deacon, Neomorph and Xenomorph.

And so Alien indicated the Space Jockey and Xenomorph, as (1) and (2) maybe we need to introduce something else for those instead of the Engineers and Xenomorph?

Or Maybe the Answer is to Combine 1+2 and Introduce the STARBEAST?

Could we find some Amalgamation of these to come up with something a Bit Different, be it a New Species and New Weapon that where BOTH... Stolen, Re-Engineered or Given but Miss-used by the Engineers?

Can a Introduction of New Things, or Few Changed really RESCUE the Prequels?

Or would we need a Reboot?

so in Regards to the OT... i agree having David as the Creator was a Mistake, and Alien Covenant has taken the Engineers/Space Jockey Species to something that is NOT as ALIEN or Lovecraftian as it appeared before the Prequels.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Oct-01-2019 3:37 PM

@Gavin

If i could go back to the things you indicated in the OT.

LV-426

Indeed any clues about the Signal and being Ancient would Discredit the David Created it Arc.

I think Fans were Disappointed with Prometheus and the lack of Clues or Xenomorph like Attacks... a Hamerpede Face Rape, the Toxic Avenger Fifield, and a Postal Engineer simply would not be as Pleasing for Most.

I dont think we need to go to LV-426, but i do think that giving us a Movie that goes to LV-223 again, that would be more ALIENY and encounter a Organism that is Birthed from Eggs, even if this Organism is NOT the same as a Xenomorph but is somewhat just as close as the Xenomorph of Davids, as in we get something that is NOT quite as similar as the Xenomorph in Alien Covenant or Alien, but something that has that more Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic that the ALIEN had.

So you can keep it a bit Ambiguous but allow it to offer something that makes the Plot of Alien Covenant as being NOT Clear Cut and Dry.

Planet 4

This is more Tricky, so the only way to maybe Discredit David here would be a Mission to Planet 4 and recover some of his Notes, where extra information is Found Regarding how he Synthesized some Organism or the Pathogen to a Pure Form close to what the Engineers had Obtained their Parasitic Pathogen from, but it could NOT Yield Results from a Engineer.

So he had No Choice but to use this on Dr Shaw and the Results where Fruitful but he just could not Quite get to Mass Produce them, without Merging it with the Neomorph and then he would use this on Dr Shaws Egg Cells to obtain his Xenomorph

David

we could have him Explain in a Sequel a similar Process to what i described above.

Space Jockey

I think its maybe not Necessary to go this route, as in a way other clues could be given, but maybe a Mission to LV-426 where they Encounter the Derelict and Discover someone has been here before them, and find Clues that Indicate that DAVID had caused the Acid Hole to go down and Obtain a Specimen, so they Find Some Clues to indicate to the viewer that David came here while Dr Shaw was in Cryo-sleep and he must have left with a EGG.

Could David be revealed to had Activated the SOS in the Year 2094

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

MonsterZero

Oct-01-2019 5:26 PM

 "Alien was synonymous with Lovecraftian terror"

 

To me...That went out the window with ALIENS.   That movie made it painfully obvious Xenomorphs are space bugs, hatched like ordinary insects.

 

Far as I'm concerned David(humanity) creating a special space bug really doesn't bother me. Man creating Chemical/biological/nuclear warfare is much worse. (I'll take on a xeno before I step into a room filled with blister agent.)

 

Black goo is still very cosmic horror IMHO and I'd like to know where it comes from. 

 

chli

Oct-02-2019 8:08 AM

BigDave

ALIEN (The Prequel) was actually very funny. :D

Well, it's mankind's longest journey so far in space and we end up finding extraterrestrials looking just like us. Furthermore, they created us.

How did Shaw know or suspect this beforehand by the way (that they engineered us)?

Gavin

Oct-02-2019 2:46 PM

@ BigDave,

In the OP I wanted to keep each suggestion vague so as to gauge peoples interpretations rather than bombard people with my own. But now that you have offered yours I will do so in kind...

LV-426

I would actually advise against returning there, as I view it akin to a well that has been mined too many times. Instead I imagine LV-426 could be mentioned in a flashback or memory whereby we again see David on the Prometheus en-route to LV-223 and a display showing LV-223 and LV-426, with some sort of identifier symbolizing the signal being sent from there.

Planet 4

There are actually a few ways in which Davids deception could be made apparent using Planet 4. One way would be the discovery of the remains of Engineer transcripts that David has attempted to burn and destroy that clearly show he copied their work. Another way would be to discover an egg hidden somewhere in the Engineer city, and another way would be to discover some Engineer mural or pictograph showing the Alien.

David

David revealing his deception could be the entire point of the deception. In the advent message, David boasted to Weyland-Yutani that he had created the perfect organism and that he would unleash it upon them. The intended result would be for Weyland-Yutani to track down David and either destroy him or take from him what he has claimed to create, leading Weyland-Yutani on a wild goose chase away from LV-426 where the real, original threat lies. But with Alien it would appear, should this avenue be pursued narratively, that Davids ruse did not work and that Weyland-Yutani learned of what was on LV-426.

Space Jockey

We could see, as I laid out in the OP how the derelict came to be on LV-426, or we could see a ghost-holograph recording depicting the Space Jockeys fate. Another way would be to show how the Space Jockey came to have eggs in its lower decks, which could be revealed to have come about in a way not yet postulated.

@ Monster Zero,

I like to think of the Alien franchise in three parts, Alien, Aliens and its sequels/crossovers which focused on the Queen, and the prequels that focused on the Engineers.

Additionally, there is no on-screen evidence that Ann and Russ Jorden discovered the "bug" Aliens from the same location (the egg silo) that Kane discovered, and it could be that they discovered a separate cache of eggs which had been modified to include a Queen, while the eggs in the silo could be an unmodified variant of the Alien.

As for the black goo could be the franchises savior, if used in the right way.

MonsterZero

Oct-02-2019 4:56 PM

Planet 4

So... do we think The Engineers hid their planet with technology? And with the Engineers dead,  the tech has failed(or David switched it off)...A nice juicy green Earth type just shows up on their latest search!("..wasn't there last year..").....W Y might have a colony ship or a probe on the way already. 

LV-426

"...ghost-holograph recording depicting the Space Jockeys fate."

Yes! That would be cool.

But I'd probably leave LV-426 alone....Unless it's the source of Chemical A0-3959X.91 – 15.

 

 

daliens

Oct-05-2019 6:38 AM

IMO we don't have any hard evidence so far that David or the Engineers created the xenomorph. We can go that route, but all the other options are open. At some point I said that we can draw a parallel between the Covenat carrying the 2000 colonists and the Space Jockey carrying the thousands of eggs in a sense that the Space Jockey race was hired by the xenomorph race to spread their seeds into the Universe. Or to find a new home for them, like the colonists from Earth did in Alien Covenant. We can still say that the Space Jockey race and the Enginners race are different. It will all depend on the producers.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

BigDave

Oct-06-2019 3:23 PM

I think the whole Subject such as I think the whole Subject such as WHO did or did NOT create the Xenomorph the same as WHO the Space Jockey is/was..... really just comes down to Dr Shaws Qoute "its what i choose to believe"

I think when looking at those Questions we have the Following to Consider.

*Original Idea/Concept.... which is something that has Changed/Evolved and so is NO LONGER a Valid Point but something that they could TURN BACK too.

*Bonus Material/Virals... again as things CHANGE these can be removed from being Canon.

*Drafts of the Movies....  again things CHANGE from the Draft too the Shooting of a Movie.

*Deleted/Extended Scenes.... these again can be removed for Various Reasons and their Content sometimes should NOT be considered Definite Evidence.

*Production/Cast Comments... these Tend to be more Accurate only as far as Present at the Time they was made, and so things can CHANGE that would NOT support earlier comments or Plans by Directors etc.

So its ONLY really the Theatrical Movies that remain the SOLID FORM of Clues, but also Sequels can Contradict some Elements of earlier Movies, but these Changes should be Considered the CURRENT Canon and Clues.

For me looking at this then i get the Impression that David is the CREATOR of the Xenomorph even though that may BUG the Fans...

But we have had NO SPOON FED and Water Tight Case, and there are Contradictions but these could all be just OVERSIGHT....

Ultimately until we see those Eggs get on the Derelict and we are shown CONCRETE Proof that these Eggs originate from David then there is always room for CHANGE.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Oct-06-2019 4:14 PM

"How did Shaw know or suspect this beforehand by the way"

it would be their Assumptions based of the more than Coincidental Archeological Discovers, that when they discover the Clues Lead to a Star System where they discover a Organism who Share our DNA, then they believe this has PROVED their Thesis as Correct.

But there is NOTHING that is 100% to show they are Correct, as you could throw in a Curve-ball that Mankind had Created the Engineers the Sacrificial Scene then a Curve-ball these Sub-Creations use the Black Goo to NOT seed their DNA but to Seed the Pathogen on Worlds.

Because its not CONCRETE from the Movies and so the above could be ADDED that would NOT really Contradict what we are shown in the Prequels.  Things can be CHANGED and any contradictions could be ignored as OVERSIGHT.

But the indication (until Change) is that Dr Shaw and Holloway had discovered our Creators.

Regarding the Changes to show that David could NOT have created the Xenomorph they could go that route, and dispute clues to suggest otherwise... they could put Davids Notes and Clues to what he was doing as just OVERSIGHT.

But you could change it AGAIN.... but you maybe have to then (or NOT) show us WHY by Coincidence that David has something VERY Similar!

So maybe you have to give a GOOD REASON for WHY would David have something so Similar! Unless you just use the LAZY excuse of Oversight!

Ridley Scott said the Cathedral is where the Engineers would STORE their Knowledge and so likely History too.

This BUILDING is Extremely Large and so if it is a Place to Store Knowledge and maybe History then what do we have like that on Earth?

A Library?  YES!

But also Museums so maybe this could give us a way to have them Store some Long Dead, Mummified Organisms? 

As i would find it VERY Stupid for them to STORE a Deadly Egg in the City, let alone this Building, but maybe a Petrified, Desiccated one for SHOW like  Museum piece would sound Plausible?

Then it could be Revealed that David had Re-Engineered this (use the Goo to extract DNA) to then Merge with the Neomorph and other Experiments... thus Creating a Hybrid.

I would say this would be a Plausible way to Introduce that he had OBTAINED a Egg without Contradictions or Complications.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

MonsterZero

Oct-06-2019 4:44 PM

'2000 colonists and the Space Jockey carrying the thousands of eggs'

Yeah...I'm wondering what David will do with only two facehugger embryos? (One is a queen? can't believe RS would do that. ) If he'd also vomited up an ampule of Goo.....then I'd feel better about him replicating eggs...as it is now, he's probably going to have to find another Goo source?

 

'I would say this would be a Plausible way to Introduce that he had OBTAINED a Egg without Contradictions or Complications.'

I like that idea. start Covenant 2 with Walter's rescue and have him fill in the planet 4 details and what he's learned?

 

Opening shot:

Walter (sitting) playing a flute in the plaza...he Looks up to see a vessel landing(space marines)

Spend a bit of time explaining the situation, maybe tour of the city/spooky underground burial chambers...etc........till an alien(Engineers?) probe shows up and scans them....Marines shoot it down. Walter suggests they hasten their departure.

BigDave

Oct-07-2019 7:20 AM

Regarding the Face Huggers, i think it would have been UNLIKELY that Ridley Scott would have gone the Camerons Queen, in that ONE or more of those Face Huggers would Produce a Queen Xenomorph. I think IF we did see much about those Face Huggers then it could be that RS would maybe have explored ALTERNATIVE forms of Procreation and so maybe that could be the Egg Morph?  Who knows.

We cant rule out that David could NOT go back to the Surface for some Black Goo, that would not be a Problem for him, Depending on HOW SURE he is that Walter is Completely Incapacitated...   maybe David could have Grabbed some Black Goo after his Conflict with Walter?

In Context to this Topic though, its about HOW can we go a route to Disprove that David could NOT have created those Eggs on the Derelict.

The its a case of maybe doing it in a way that DOES-NOT really Contradict what we have seen in Alien Covenant.

There are Differences with Davids Xenomorph that we could maybe look at...

The Chest Buster Stage is Different, and also the Gestation seems to be more Quicker.

To me the differences INDICATE maybe TWO reasons for the differences.

1) We are seeing a Re-engineering of the Classic Xenomorph that has taken some Neomorph Traits on, for example Faster Gestation and Fully Formed Chest Buster, that Mimics the Adult Form.

2) Something that had not YET been Evolved to what we have in ALIEN, so we have yet to see HOW the more Synthetic/Less Organic Aesthetic comes into PLAY.

And so i think the Best Solution has to be either as..

1) Where we get some Clues to David obtaining a Xenomorph to Re-Engineer which i just cant see the Engineers being Foolish Enough to Keep Such a Deadly Organism in some kind of ZOO... but maybe a somewhat Desiccated One in a Museum that he could EXTRACT DNA from could be a way to GO!

So that the Derelict Eggs are KEPT as Ancient and after the Company does-not Manage to Obtain the more Evolved Version of Davids, they realize that IF he could Re-Engineer it from a Classic Xenomorph Egg, and IF there are Thousands on LV-426 then they could attempt to Obtain these and Re-Engineer them too.

2) The Engineers or beings above them will Return to see David and HOW much Superior he is to Planet 4 Engineers and Humans, and he is NOT Organic.... and they also see how his Xenomorph is more Superior to the Experiments conducted on LV-223 and Horrors that Created.

So these Beings/Engineers see Great Potential and they make a Amalgamation of David/Walter and his Xenomorph to then get us to the Eggs on the Derelict.

So what we have then is either that David eventually reaches his Z by Experiments that Involved the Engineers A and his Experiments with other Life to make a Hybrid.

Or that the Engineers/Other beings take Davids work which is J-K which he had used the Engineers A-I to then Evolve this Process R-Z thus making David the Middle Man only.

We could have other Solutions that would appease the Fan Boys that would then Contradict or Trash what the Prequels set out..... such as a Discovery in the Depths of the Cathedral of a Egg Laying Xenomorph Queen... which then we would ask... WHY would David go through so much Effort?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Oct-07-2019 8:05 AM

BigDave

If we go only by what we see in the film, we know that doctors Holloway and Shaw found identical star maps and a giant pointing towards a constellation.

Shaw chooses to believe it's an invitation and that the extraterrestrials created us. David has studied their "thesis" but what this contains we don't get to know.

So, in order to find the answer to why she believes they created us, we need to go beyond the movie . . .

A bit off-topic so, yes, there are many ways to make David not the creator of the xenomorph (Gavin has given a couple).

As for myself, I like the angle that David is delusional (one note is off). We see signs everywhere that this creature has been around for ages. I like to think that he isn't even close to the real xenomorph - the Deacon (on the mural) . . .

BigDave

Oct-07-2019 9:44 AM

I think what it ULTIMATELY comes down too is Fans think they know what is BEST but forget they dont really have 100% Control over what Direction they take the Franchise, sometimes they can Voice Frustration and FOX then Listen which is WHY we got Alien Covenant and its a case of BE CAREFUL what you wish for.....

But absolutely the David as the Creator Arc is surely a Unnecessary Move, ONE they should have Surely Considered would UPSET Fans...

But there would be NO WAY to please Fans anyway, IF the Sequel to Prometheus had NEVER given us the Answers or Xenomorphs then some would have NOT been happy... if it showed that a Queen was the Origins of the Xenomorph then NOT everyone would have been Happy.

Dr Shaw seems to sum it up the BEST..  "its what i choose to believe"

Then we are left with this quote "the trick is not minding that it hurts" but a Majority do mind that it Hurts.

We can offer some Explanations that David cant be Trusted or that Dr Shaw and Holloway are completely Incorrect and that in REALITY he (David) just found a Xenomorph Egg and Messed about with it, and our Space Jockey is Cyril Sneer from the Raccoons..

Sadly we have to Accept what we see, and then it can be Changed as long as it considers what we see before.

The Mural and Frescos dont show me a Xenomorph, but they are Ambiguous that anyone can make anything out of them, what it seems to show is that they had done Experiments on something that had lead to that Mural Deacon, and that the Black Goo seems to pass on Traits of this Organism that is Connected to the Xenomorph but there is NO evidence of HOW this is Connected, as far as what Process, which came First Etc.

There are Discrepancies to make its seem UNLIKELY that David could have Created the Xenomorph and these as far as On Screen are that the Derelict looked like it had been on LV-426 for Vastly Longer than 17 Years.

Davids creation also looks Aesthetically Different, but the same Argument is raised in the Differences between the Derelict/Juggernaught and Engineers/Space Jockey...    so Differences that could be just a OVERSIGHT... where we maybe have to either NOT MIND that it Hurts... or just CHOOSE to Believe what we want.

For the Record i think we are in a Pickle and the Move they with Alien Covenant was a Mistake!

But there are a Few things that we could use to Question the Integrity of what David had done, but then thats OK as long as we give a Good Explanation to what he had actually achieved... and WHY?

I think we could come up with some Explanations... but then maybe need to Respect what we saw in Alien Covenant and so i think to have David just discover a Live Egg or a Few Live Eggs and offer no other Explanations would be LAZY way out....

So i think we need to discover Davids Notes or hear it from him, that he had Discovered something that lead to his Creation that came from the Original Xenomorphs and have him indicate WHY he would bother with the other Experiments if he had already Discovered the Xenomorph Eggs that are in Perfect Condition.

Looking at the Movie i seem to think its Pushing us towards that David had either Began this Creation or he had Re-Engineered it but then from WHAT? as the Clues to me seem to point to using the Neomorph and Black Goo to then Cross-Breed Various Organisms...

For me it does-not ALONE conclude that those Eggs on the Derelict had Originated from David's Experiments, the Biggest Issue is that the Derelict looks like its been on LV-426 for a LONG LONG Time.

But if we dont pay Attention to Detail, then its a bit more Ambigious regarding Davids Experiments, it all comes down to the Production just NOT considering the other Movies and sticking stuff in because it looks COOL!

But i Understand this should NOT become another David did-not create the Xenomorph posts but more of WHAT can we do to Carry On and show that he could NOT have created or played a Roll in those Eggs on LV-426.

ULTIMATELY... it should have been Left a Mystery and NOT gone any route to show us Classic Xenomorphs or Indicate their Origins.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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