Why Invite Us?
Stanley Kubrick had a huge influence on many directors - including Ridley Scott. There are many parallels (and differences) between 2001 and Prometheus, the ship's computer being just one. Hal finally destroys the crew, except Bowman (David as the first name . . .), whereas Scott changes the ship’s computer into a maternal figure - “Mother”.
In 2001, the film begins about 4 million years before our time in the African savannah. A monolith descends to earth and changes evolution, turning apes into humans (by giving them the capacity of abstract thinking). Later on in the movie (in the future), we are transported to the moon where a human colony has found a monolith buried in the dust. When the monolith is exposed to sunlight, a signal is sent through the planetary system - to Jupiter.
A couple of years later when a spacecraft is on a mission to investigate the area where the signal was sent to, it comes across yet another, larger, monolith. This, it turns out, is a portal to another part of space (and another dimension?) where the astronaut Bowman comes “in contact” with superior beings.
In Prometheus, doctors Shaw and Holloway discover a star map with an extraterrestrial being pointing in a certain direction - to the moon LV-223. For Shaw, this is the possibility of finding the answers to the existential questions. To Sir Peter Weyland, who finances the expedition, it’s his hope of prolonging his life.
In both 2001 and Prometheus, superior extraterrestrial beings point out the direction to their homeworld. Or is it their homeworld? LV-223 might have been the homeworld of the engineers a long time ago but became an outpost for (military) experimentation. Which history shows us, meeting other civilisations can be dangerous for both parts. Hawking and Scott emphasize the dangers of an encounter.
So, what could have been the purpose of leading humanity to them? Why invite us?
"The invitation" is just Shaw's interpretation.
Rock paintings may look/read (for caveman) like that:
High man points to the planets:
- See these planets? Don't fly to them!
The fresco depicts a location in space some 35,000 years ago, long before the Engineers turned on humanity (which we know was about 2,000 years ago).
The Engineers just left their calling card to humans living in primitive societies, that's all. Here's where we came from, since you ask.
The question is, what were Engineers doing on LV-223 tens of thousands of years ago? There are numerous 'pyramids' there, each superficially similar. It may be the case that the inhabitants of LV-223 were tasked with both seeding civilisations on new worlds (e.g. us), and pruning out the failures (also us, but after a long trial). Long before they got involved with humanity, the Engineers were seeding and weeding other civilisations for perhaps millions of years.
There is always some Ambiguity with the Prequels and a lot depends on HOW you try and look at the Prequels and for some the Center Point seems to be the Xenomorph/Black Goo Horrors, Bio-Weapons and Warlike beings wishing to use such on Mankind or to simply just Procreate such things...
Ridley Scott seems to indicate the Engineers as Gardeners of Space more than Warmongering Genocidal would be Gods.
I was going to reply to this Topic Earlier but was busy, however hox seems to be on the Right Track ;)
We need to look at some of the Basics that appeared to be indicated for what the Engineers Plot was... this would require taking into account what Production has said which includes RS and scenes that are CUT... If we look at the Theatrical Cut then we can come to a different Conclusion.
*The PLOT behind the Engineers is the Ancient Aliens/Gods and Chariots of the Gods Theory... Which is that we was NOT Created by a Magical Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent Being (GOD) or the Product of a Big Bang and Evolution. But that we are the Product of a Ancient Alien Species who had Played a Part in the Creation, Evolution and Interaction/Knowledge of our Species. These would-be GODS are who we Interpret as our Gods from various Mythos/Religion.
*We should NOT assume the Sacrificial Scene was on Earth, it was merely to indicate this is the Process the Engineers Seed Worlds, but this is ONLY a part of the Process, they Continue to Experiment and Evolve their Experiments over Countless Thousands of Years.
*LV-223 was indicated as a Location going back at least 35'000 Years ago. Yet the Engineers only intended to Set Off 2000 Years ago to use those Bio-Weapons on us.. WHY wait that long?
*LV-223 was a Hostile Environment for Life on Earth, we could not Survive more than TWO Minutes on that World, yet inside the Complex and Ships there is a Atmosphere that is Breathable for us.. YET! the Engineers appear to NOT need any Space Suits to Breath on the Surface and we can assume the Xenomorph does-not need the same Environment to Support Life that we do.
So WHY would they invest in this place being able to SUPPORT Life from Earth?
We need to look at the Engineers from the Creationist Stand Point from the Gardeners of Space Stand Point.
A lot of TIME and investment must go into either Discovering Suitable Worlds or Terra-forming them.
A lot of TIME and investment must go into the Seeding and Evolution of Life on said Worlds.
If you main Objective is to Create Life, Experiment with Life in the aim to Evolve and Perfect your Creations, then ideally you would want some kind of SAND-BOX
If you was a Gardener and you have Great Gardens with a all Manner of Plants, Flowers, Crops, Fruit and Vegetables. When you decide to Experiment with these to Create Better Versions or Hybrids it would be WISE to do so in some kind of GREEN-HOUSE and then when you are Pleased with the Results and that they would NOT affect the Garden you have, then you would take your NEW and improved Experiments and Seed/Plant them in the Garden.
I believe that THIS was what LV-223 was.. a Green-House a SANDBOX. The Star Maps are thus saying "this is where we created you"
Lets look at the Sacrificial Scene.... Engineer Consumes the GOO, his Body is Broken Down and then these Broken Down Molecules then Form into something NEW that then either.
1) Reform into the Basic Building Blocks of Life (however the Scene shows the World has Planet Life and so likely has Basic Life already).
2) The Process is the Catalyst that allows for the Engineers DNA to pass on to Basic Life and EVOLVE it into Complex Life and thus Kick Start the Evolution to Complex Life.
If we look at Jon Spaights idea of Nano-Scrabs to Decode the GOO then we see those Scarabs Consume the Engineer and STORE his DNA we see ONE of these Scarabs then Bite a Primate and Pass on the Engineers DNA.. this indicating this Process is what began our Origins...
Sacrificed/Stored Engineer DNA ==> Primate ==> Early Mankind.
What if this Engineer was in some Container when he was Sacrificed and those Scarabs that Consumed him then was collected and Stored into Containers? (Urns) we can assume that dropping a Container that Breaks Open would see those Scarabs unleashed and IF they then Bite a Primate then we would get the SAME Result!
Replace Scarabs for GOO and so the Prometheus Engineer was Sacrificed in a Container and the Broken Down Material is then Collected into URNS... then we can assume that Dropping the Contents of the URN into the Water Fall would be the SAME result!
The Seeding Scene is a VERY long time ago... to send down a Engineer drop him off on a Planet and have him Consume the Sacrificial Scarabs/Goo is the way they did things but what if they had more Control? By that what if they made the Engineers Sacrifice themselves in another Place and COLLECTED the resulting Material into URNS.
You then have SHIPS that DROP these onto a World Instead and we get the same EFFECT... only more Efficient!
Does that make sense?
Are the Juggernauts/Urns just a more Advanced/Efficient way of Seeding the Engineers?
Lets look at this Comment by Ridley Scott.
"That could be a planet anywhere. All he’s doing is acting as a gardener in space. And the plant life, in fact, is the disintegration of himself. If you parallel that idea with other sacrificial elements in history – which are clearly illustrated with the Mayans and the Incas – he would live for one year as a prince, and at the end of that year, he would be taken and donated to the gods in hopes of improving what might happen next year, be it with crops or weather, etcetera."
The Prequels talk about Immortality... you are Immortalized by your Deeds, what you are remembered for, what you Created (Art, Music) and from your Seed (Family Generations). Some are Remembered by Monuments.
Lets look at some of the Dialog from Elders Scene that was not shown.. The Elder had said to the Sacrificial Engineer... "Let your body become the dirt. Your blood become the waters. And may your soul become their way back to us."
Take those TWO Quotes into Account and then look at Planet 4 and look at those Monuments those Statues and that the Engineers seem to take Great Pride in their WAYS.. and its a Honor to be Chosen as a Sacrifice to Seed Worlds.
Then if we consider this to be the case, then being selected as a Sacrifice, where your Donation would end up having you LIVE-ON via passing on your Genetic Material and then having a Statue Erected of you in your Honor could be seen as TWO ways to gain some kind of Immortality.
If we look at Paradise its a place only the Worthy/Pure and Honorable are deemed to be allowed to LIVE.. It in other contexts is a Walled City that the Garden of Eden was located, where the Cradle of Life Began...
Thus what if those Engineers are the deemed Worthy Genetic Stock the Engineers select to SEED Worlds?
Take all this into account and then look at WHY the Engineers were welcoming the Juggernaught, and WHY they had NO Fear until the Bombardment.
Take this into account and ask IF these Ships were WARSHIPS then why did they lack any Defense Mechanisms?
Look at Davids Workshop for Experimenting and Creating Various Hybrids in the Pursuit of Perfection and ASK... what happens if some of these get loose on Planet 4 and this Planet was full of Life..
Any undesired Experiments could IMPACT the World and Life on it.... Would it NOT be better to Experiment on a Separate World... in Complexes that are Separated from Each Other?
This is WHAT i think LV-223 was..... a Sandbox!
Take that into account... if a Complex has Experiments that Need a Habitat like Earth to Survived should ANY escape the Complex they would DIE before they reach the other Complexes..
This makes Perfect Sense for why LV-223 was Hostile Outside and the Separation of Each Complex?
IF you have bared with me by NOW.. thanks... this has been my Interpretation of the Space Gardeners, Paradise and LV-223.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
If this the invitation...
Maybe some early Earth civilization already flew to LV-223? Atlantis, for example.
I am sure it was NOT a Invitation...
But certainly who knows how many Civilizations had been to LV-223, ATLANTIS is a Great Example.
Ridley Scott had mentioned the Engineers have Reset Worlds before and suggested they had done this on Earth before... mentioning Atlantis.
So he was indicating that the Downfall of the Atlanteans was at the Hands of the Engineers.
If we look at my Interpretation of the Engineers Agenda and the Juggernauts, then Bombarding the Engineers DNA on a World would RESET it.
Life would be Reset but with Engineer DNA and then it would not take too long before the World is back to what it was.
Using Xeno/Deacon based DNA just makes NO sense!
It could be likely some Engineers at some point encountered something related to the Deacon/Xenomorph and they had become Perverted with the Concept that this Organism is more Perfect...
Maybe attempting to use its DNA to Evolve themselves?
What if the LV-223 Engineers are Sub-Created Slaves and Clones and so like Replicants to the Planet 4 Engineers. (Hence they have NO Nipples)
A Sub-species that are Engineered, or Engineered themselves to the point they CANT procreate..
Encountering a Organism that then would allow these beings to GIVE BIRTH to something could be seen as Interesting to these beings who then decide the Result has the Potential, and so they begin to Experiment on this Species.... hence the Experiments that latter occurred on LV-223?
This is how i have always been drawn to the connection...
Maybe the Organism was sent as a Punishment or it came about when some Engineers had attempted to Engineer themselves with the DNA of something Else.
I assume at some-point either of these led to the First Encounter with what would Predate the Deacon/Xenomorph DNA and potentially could be the Fresco Creature.
The Perverted, Corrupt and Fallen Engineers then seeing the DNA of the Deacon as being more Ideal to EVOLVE Worlds than their own DNA that came from their Creators the Planet 4 Engineers.
The LV-223/Prometheus Engineers thus being similar to Lucifer and David in Agenda.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Leto brings up a good point about past civilizations discovering the rock paintings. By the time we had the ability to reach LV-223, it could have changed into a military/research base.
I agree with Leto and others that Doctors Shaw and Holloway blew it on the mural interpretation. There is most likely a disclaimer, now faded away, written in an ancient script near the system that read "Don't go here."
"The fresco depicts a location in space some 35,000 years ago, long before the Engineers turned on humanity (which we know was about 2,000 years ago).
The Engineers just left their calling card to humans living in primitive societies, that's all. Here's where we came from, since you ask."
Good point hox.
The mural was very old, the visiting Engineers could have certainly cited where they came from when asked, and later turned on humanity and they were wiped out in an incident when preparing to act on Earth. This scenario ties quite well to what was seen on LV-223.
Great topic. Thank you chli.
LV-223 could have started off as something else entirely (like an experimental technology testing ground and storage) to later become an apparent military installation.
There were other civilisations with the same star map: Egyptian, Mayan, Sumerian, Babylonian, Hittite and Hawaiian. These range from about 2470 BCE to 680 CE.
One very interesting thing is that the engineers visited us about 600 years after the outbreak on LV-223 . . .
“this is where we created you”
“The gardeners of space” were kind enough to give these ancient civilisations, ranging from Stone Age (about 35.000 years BCE) to the Mayan (and Hawaiian) civilisations (in the 7th century CE), a star map indicating a place which they had no possibility of knowing where it was?
In 2001: A Space Odyssey, the extraterrestrial beings were also gardeners of space, controlling evolution, and were patiently waiting for us to evolve into the space age. Then, humanity could follow the yellow brick road to the land of Oz.
One thing we haven’t touched upon (I think) is that the engineers continued to be worshipped and visited us about 600 years after the outbreak on LV-223! Who were they? Engineers from Planet 4?
Another thing is that I’m beginning to wonder if there aren’t at least two substances: one for seeding (creating) and one for weeding (destroying)?
Furthermore, we see that the DNA-string of the sacrificial engineer breaks apart (suggesting just the building blocks of life is passed on), yet, our DNA matches that of the engineers which seems like a contradiction.
I think I prefer to see the sacrificial scene as the beginning of life on Earth (although they probably have seeded other worlds). What we see in the prologue is how the engineers engineered us (through the building blocks of life, evolution, and perhaps technical help as they visited our civilisations). They became upset when we evolved in the wrong direction (the execution of Christ?), wanted to wipe us out but the biological weapon hit themselves (but for another 600 years they still visited us!).
"The Engineers just left their calling card to humans living in primitive societies, that's all. Here's where we came from, since you ask."
I think a few interesting things to consider with this, the Engineer that David spoke to said that THEY did-not come from LV-223 but a place we would call Paradise.
And how accurate was the Star-Map? Was it so precise to point to LV-223? Or just the Star System and LV-223 just happened to be the only World that appeared more Habitable? The Latter appears to be the case... however with Alien Covenant via the Advent it appears that Planet 4 was located around the Zeta Systems too so we cant 100% rule out that the Star-Map pointed to Planet 4 but this World was Hidden/Cloaked some how (as Alien Covenant appeared to indicate).
Dr Shaw indicated that they was WRONG... in that this was in No-Way a Invitation to come and find the Engineers. It is likely the Engineers never intend Mankind to Advance to a Level that we could leave Earth and so the only way we are intended to LEAVE is if the Engineers decide to come and TAKE some of us from Earth.
The other way to look at it was a Warning... like "dont go to this place" but with the Engineers Teachings surely they would have been passed on at some point so we would know it was a Warning... Why Pass a Warning on for like over 30'000 Years?
Another way to look at it was a TRAP but again this is Flawed, as while Fooling us to seek this place to then Discover Death is what potentially could happen, the Place also would allow Mankind to gain Engineer Technology should we have a way to protect from their Bio-Weapon Experiments.
But i think we have to go back to Basics, the Chariots of the Gods Plot, in which many Ancient Cultures told Tales of Gods who came from the STARS.... so its likely the Star-Map is a indication of that.
As the Engineer said they dont come from LV-223, then i think it leaves TWO options.
1) The Engineers were pointing to were THEY came from but this World is Hidden (Planet 4) and so the Prometheus just went to the Closest Location to the Star-Map System that seemed to be somewhat Habitable which by Coincidence just happens to be a Facility that contains Death and Connected with the Engineers and their Agenda at some point to Destroy us.
2) It was to show WHERE we came from, and so this Place was where the Engineers would Experiment with their Creations as some Green-House/Sandbox but at some point those Engineers had became interested in the Experiments with a Life-Form/DNA that they felt was more Interesting and Superior to Humanoid Life/DNA and intended to UPGRADE us.
"One very interesting thing is that the engineers visited us about 600 years after the outbreak on LV-223"
This Certainly is a Puzzle... did they come back even after LV-223 Outbreak. Or.... could we be looking at one of these TWO.
Ridley Scott teased they sent down a Emissary First (Christ) but we still never changed our ways and we Crucified this Emissary and that was the Last Straw.
1) We cant take things too Literal to just ONE kind of Religion or Mythos as the Star Maps Spanned various Cultures. So could there had been Multiple Emissaries sent to Various Cultures around the World and only some of those had KILLED their Emissaries to the Engineers, while some Cultures that lived less Corrupt/Advanced Lives still had their Emissaries or some Emissaries Migrated to those other Cultures after 2000 years ago?
2) Could the Emissaries have had Disciples who carried on going around the World and passing on the Teachings and the Star-Map to other Cultures?
I think either makes Logical Sense... but thats NOT to say what is going on.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
" Then, humanity could follow the yellow brick road to the land of Oz."
This seemed to be the case with Space 2001, but it appears to not had been the case with Prometheus.
"Another thing is that I’m beginning to wonder if there aren’t at least two substances: one for seeding (creating) and one for weeding (destroying)"
I think it depends on how we look at the GOO... in that Really Long Post i had explained my Interpretation of the Substance as a Seeding Tool we are led to see the Black Goo would in effect Destroy Life but from it is New Life so for Example Fifield is NOT the same as he was as a Human.. In some of the Concept Works and Spaights Draft we see that he had became a Hybrid with Xenomorph related DNA.
Back to my Long Winded Explanation... if the GOO is a TOOL that Breaks Down a Organisms DNA/Traits and this becomes Passed on by the Pathogen... then we have to ask WHAT happens if a Sacrificed Engineer event happens on Earth and his Broken Down Molecules infect the Water, we can assume this would then INFECT Organic Life and Mutate it to have more Engineer DNA... and so maybe this Process would RESET the Affected Area, a Infected Person would EVOLVE to something NEW and maybe would loose who they used to be.
Fifield was maybe became a more Hostile Organism because the DNA of the Deacon/Xenomorph related Organism is more Aggressive and Hostile.
The way i saw the GOO is the same as Spaights Scarabs, which we have to remember was the Basis for the GOO.
Alien Engineers we see...
*Engineer opens Sacrificial Cup/Box and Sacrificial Scarabs Consume ENGINEER, they then Store Engineer DNA.
*One of these Scarabs then flies off and Bites a Female Primate and INJECTS the Engineers DNA and she Mutates into a Hybrid which is indicated how our Origins Began we thus Started as a Engineer/Primate Hybrid.
*The Next Time we see the Scarabs are in Urn/Vases that Fifield knocks over and then some Scarabs get into his Space Suit and ONE then BITES him.... this Scarab (Does-Not Consume him) but INJECTS a Cargo of DNA into him.... Fifield then Mutates into a XENOMORPH like Hybrid.
We could Conclude from this that those Scarabs maybe Consumed that DNA from some Xenomorph Related Organism.
Apply this to Prometheus but replace Scarabs with GOO and consider Sacrificial Pose Mural and Altar with Sacrificial Bowl (Originally in Trailers) and maybe it becomes quite SIMPLE.
Scarabs/Goo are a Creation/Hybrid Tool that can be used to OBTAIN the DNA/Traits of a Organism and then allow this to be Passed on to other Life to Create a Hybrid.
Alien Covenant muddied the Waters a Little though, we now seem to maybe have a Pathogen that can be Programed to Obtain/Pass on DNA or/and to Target DNA and replace Molecules with Petrified/Crystallized Molecules..
"Furthermore, we see that the DNA-string of the sacrificial engineer breaks apart (suggesting just the building blocks of life is passed on), yet, our DNA matches that of the engineers which seems like a contradiction."
Certainly it is likely this scene was the Catalyst to Evolve Basic Life into Complex Life and Kick Start Evolution. Ridley Scott had indicated the Engineers come back over and over to Further Evolve/Engineer their Creations. So its a Long Process.
We can see similar with David, his workshop seems to show that he has taken the Neomorph and using the GOO he has Experimented on Various Organisms to OBTAIN certain DNA/Traits to then Mix/Match with each other and the Neomorph to Create the Xenomorph.
The Engineers likely did the same with Worlds they Seed, Creating various Organisms via Various Experiments in addition to Evolution.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
@chli, good spot about the provenance of those other star maps. I'm going to be generous to the production team and say that finding a piece of art created in 680 CE does not necessarily mean that the events depicted therein happened anywhere near that time. 'The Nativity' by Piero della Francesca was created almost 1500 years after the birth of Christ, for example.
NB, an account of the Dogon people was probably instrumental in the development of this particular plot line.
You're right, hox, and maybe we don't need any emissaries, BigDave? The star maps could depict much older events (like religious tradition). That's why we haven't encountered the engineers for about 2000 years. :)
By the way, the star maps show us a constellation of 6 stars (Reticulum?). Perhaps it was the wrong starsystem the Prometheus crew travelled to?
For sure the Nativity Painting is a Good Example of how something can be made Many Years after a Event.
A thing to Consider However is the MAPS that are dated after 0AD are the Mayan 620 AD and Hawaiian 680 AD
These Civilizations had NO-CONTACT with others at this Time-Period (the Plot was neither did the others but indicated the Engineers just visited each). So that means we could wonder did Engineers still come back at around the Time of 600-700 AD?
If so then surely these beings would be aware of LV-223 and the Outbreak? So maybe those Last TWO Maps are a Warning? But some could also say they could be a SET-Trap knowing the Place had a Outbreak!
If it is like the Nativity work by Piero della Francesca then the Information may have been passed on in some kind of Visual Form (Paper or Tablet) that someone latter discovered and worked from to make those Maps in 620AD and 680AD but i think we need to assume that people from Maya Area of Mexico and Hawaii had NO Contact with each other at those Times.
Something that appears to be INTERESTING...
The other Maps dated prior to 2000 years ago all show Beings pointing to the Stars from Visitations on Foot.
The Mayan 620CE and Hawaiian 680CE ones are different in that depict a SHIP!
The Mayan One showing what could be the View of the Star Map shown from a Juggernaught Orrery Room.
The Hawaiian one seems to show a Disc Like Ship (but this could be the SUN)
And so maybe we cant Rule-Out more Visits or that the Engineers had taken some Humans from Earth earlier and then taken them Back after the Outbreak to maybe try and Pass on their Ways or Warnings?
Regarding the MAP it appears its a collection of STARS and the positions of Stars can change over Thousands of Years and so these may NOT be accurate.
It seems (as discussed on here quite a lot in the past) the Maps could be based off the Betty Hill Abduction Map
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
The Betty Hill abduction is, of course, tickling for the imagination.
But, the star map points towards a constellation. In the Reticulum constellation, there is a dwarf galaxy called Reticulum 2 . . .
Apparently, the galaxy Reticulum 2 was discovered in 2015 by the Dark Energy Survey. The engineer pointed towards the Reticulum System.
I think a thing to remember with Constellations they are just a way to Separate up areas of Space as viewed from Earth, and so you could have TWO Stars that appear side by side in a Constellation that could be Vastly Seperated by Distance were as other Stars that are not located close to them as viewed from Earth could be much closer to them.
Regarding Galaxies we have to remember they are located in the Further Reaches of Space.. Millions of Light Years away but if we get one we could make out with the Naked Eye or with a Telescope then the Area of the Sky that we would see them from Earth would be located in a Area of the SKY that belongs to a Constellation.
Meaning the Galaxy is viewed through/pass that Constellation but NOT that the Galaxy is actually located within that Constellation
"So, did the Prometheus crew travel to the right place?"
Well its likely the Map shows Stars and it depends at what position are these viewed... from Earth?
With ALIEN it was indicated that LV-426 was in the Zeta Reticuli Binary Star System and Ridley Scott has on a number of times mentioned this, and Prometheus we are in the same Star System.
Here i have TWO Maps of the Zeta Reticuli System the System is the TWO Brightest Objects its a case of which of the STARS in the Prometheus Map would match up with those Stars and then what are the other Stars in the Prometheus Map.
So that collection of 6 STARS could be quite FAR apart we can maybe ASSUME that Zeta 1 and Zeta 2 have to be on that Prometheus Star Map. So its a Question of WHICH of those 6 STARS had the Engineers been pointing out?
The Isle of Skye Cave Map seems to show the Tall Being pointing to a Specific Point. But then it could be that when the Prometheus arrived at the System Area they Targeted the System that had the Most Suitable Candidate for the Potential to have Life or had Life... hence LV-223
But it could have been Planet 4 that was being pointed out but this place remained Hidden (as indicated).
sometimes you just have to Accept what the Production, Drafts and Director had indicated, which was that these MAPS pointed out the Zeta 2 Reticuli System.
Here is another Example... its a case of HOW does the Cave Map Fit?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Well, the engineers have travelled through vast expanses of space, Planet 4, LV-223 and LV-426 and Earth being some of them. Planet 4 was sufficiently far away from LV-223 for Shaw to get into hypersleep (it took almost a year with a juggernaut).
Somewhere in the direction of the Reticulum constellation, there might be a portal to another part of space, a wormhole . . .
I think its hard to Gauge the Engineers Ships Speeds, i would ASSUME they are Vastly Quicker than Earths, and with Alien Covenant the Zeta 2 System took about a Year to Reach (Under Actually). The Prometheus took about 2 Years.
I think its likely David was not 100% Honest with Dr Shaw and he had a Agenda to get her into Cryo-sleep so then he is in FULL CONTROL.
The RED X is where the Advent Viral Message was Transmitted from. I think we have to assume this could have been Transmitted not far away from Planet 4 but we cant be 100% Sure, its a BIG Coincidence though so we are looking at either.
1) David Transmitted it from Planet 4 so it is located near Zeta 2 Reticuli (which some speculated on a Topic) HERE
2) David Transmitted it not to LONG after he had placed the Face Huger Embryos into the Embryo Storage on the Covenant, so the Ship had not traveled far which again indicates that Planet 4 is near Zeta 2 Reticuli
3) David travels near to Zeta 2 Reticuli before he sends the ADVENT which could indicate that he had left Planet 4 and is going to LV-223/426
When i say NEAR the Zeta 2 Reticuli System i am talking about as far as Location in the SKY, this does not mean its Distance is within a FEW Light Years of LV-223
We know that David had been stranded on Planet 4 for about 10 Years, from the Date of Departure of the Juggernaught from LV-223 to the Arrival of the Covenant to Planet 4 is about 10 Years 11 Months you could ASSUME thus thats how long David had been on Planet 4.
However.....Dr Shaw's Hair Growth shows that before she Entered the Engineer Cryo-Pod that 4-8 Months would have passed as far as Hair Growth. So she had spent some TIME floating in Space before She agreed to put David back together.
Also the Novel (which we cant take everything as Gospel) indicated that David had marked out the days he was stranded and there was 3800 Marks/Days. Which taking into account LEAP Years means that from when David started to MARK those Dates to when the Covenant Ship arrived he had been STRANDED on Planet 4 for about 10 Years and 5 Months.
If we ACCEPT those 3800 days and take into account Dr Shaw's Hair Growth then its likely the Juggernaught took DAYS to get to Planet 4, certainly Few Weeks Maximum.
But we have NOTHING Concrete.... as far as 100% How Long it took or 100% were Planet 4 is located.
It seems Indicated as being near Zeta 2 Reticuli and taking a SHORT TIME (Days or Weeks) but there is nothing CONCRETE so its open for debate i guess.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
When doing that IMAGE.. to Pin Point where the ADVENT was sent... i noticed something in the TOP RIGHT Corner.
There are a GROUP of Stars that KIND OF match the Star Map, its NOT 100% but CLOSE.... and Located in the Reticulum Constellation.
You may have to View Image Separate (Enlarge it), while this does-not mean this is the MATCH, its kind of Close and Certainly within the Vicinity of Zeta 2 Reticuli
Just assuming this is Correct (which it may very well NOT be), then it could be that Dr Shaw and Holloway went to the WRONG place... maybe because when they arrived close to the Matching System the only Candidate as far as being Likely to Sustain Life near by was LV-223
Maybe the Engineers were pointing to Planet 4, and maybe we assume the MAP i did was Correct, it was indicated that Planet 4 was obscured from Detection somehow...
But it seems likely that the Engineers had NEVER intended us to come and FIND them and so it was NO actual Invitation.
I Overlapped the STAR MAP and while the 3 Stars Close by Match up, the other 3 are Off (Nothing really there) so maybe they are a bit Further away as Indicated in this Next image?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
While we cant take that bit of work i had done to try and make a Match as being what is intended (the Team Behind the Maps may have done NO Research and so it Actually may NOT match any System) I think if we looked at Every Part of the SKY we could find other Groups of STARS that Match that are NO-WHERE near LV-223.
I would like to say that it does seem HIGHLY LIKELY the Star Maps that Dr Shaw and Holloway had Discovered had NOT taken us to LV-223 by Coincidence so we have to ASSUME as far as the Movie goes that the STAR MAPS had to match up with Group of Stars within the Vicinity of the Reticulum Constellation.
We saw that Dr Shaw felt that these were left for Mankind as a Invitation, this was HER assumption... she latter said "we was so WRONG!" This quote is OPEN to interpretation.
*Wrong because it was NOT a Invitation?
*Wrong because She DID-NOT expect the place to be as Horrific with the Intention they Discovered? (To Destroy us).
Likely is both of the above......
But then you could Argue that you CANT take her Assumptions as anywhere near FACT... By Virtue of her Keeping her FAITH in Spite of all her Work/Research and what they Discover on LV-223.
She was Naive and as she said "its what i CHOOSE to believe" so that Irrational Response could KNOCK any Credibility to what ever she ASSUMES.
Kind of likewise that people can KNOCK the Credibility of David by Virtue of getting the AUTHOR of the Ozymandias Poem Wrong.
I think we just need to look at WHY the Engineers would INVITE us from their POV.... for this it comes down to WHY we was Created and by WHO? (Planet 4 Engineers or Prometheus Style Engineers).
The Alien Covenant drafts seem to give some indication, but again its from David.. which is that the Engineers had attempted to BUILD Good Machines with us.
This implies our Creation was to Serve just as David was to Serve, by that for some purpose like Hard Labour and so this Mirrors some of the Sumerian Anunnaki Tales for our Creation.
In this Context then it is LIKELY those Maps where NOT any Invitation. And merely either.
*We Created you from HERE
*This is where you CAME from.
Or Dr Shaw and Holloway had taken the Prometheus to the WRONG place and the Star Maps had intended to point to PLANET 4 and indicate this is WHERE the Engineers came from.
Again being Unlikely it was a Invitation and we are NEVER intended to go there, only unless the Engineers came and TOOK some of us there, as its likely the Engineers had NEVER intended to Teach us to become so Advanced and they THOUGHT that without their HELP we would never ADVANCE to Reach the STARS.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
As for the Advent transmission, it seems likely that it was close after leaving Planet 4.
About Shaw's hair length, it looks like they travelled together, helping each other manoeuvring the juggernaut before Shaw was put into hypersleep.
When it comes to "the invitation", the location was probably pointed out before the engineers were disappointed with us and wanted to eradicate us . . .
Dr. Shaw interpreted those paintings as an invitation.
Based on comments by Ridley, and what we've seen in the film, Engineers seed planets with life and periodically visit them to check and update their creations. If their creations proved successful as the Engineers hoped, the Engineers would come back again. If their creations proved to be a disappointment, the Engineers would simply eradicate entire species using the pathogen and start all over again.
"If the planet went wrong, they would want to wipe it clean. But that could take 500 years. When they revisit because different visitors would come back and see we're not doing so well they would look at these human beings that are jerks, that are killing the planet, killing themselves, can't settle down, they're like a bunch of children. We should wipe it clean."
So, Engineers most likely hoped humans would join and co-exist with them, but at some point during their visit, humans proved to be a disappointment to them, so they thought "Nope, can't let those hostile bastards ruin this planet."
Even if Engineers checked on humans somewhere in 2000 A.D., they'd be disappointed anyway.
"Human heaven? Goodness, humans don't go to heaven.
Someone just made that up to prevent you from all going nuts."
- Kryten, Red Dwarf S3E06 "The Last Day"
Sign in to add a reply to this topic!