Close
Trending Articles
New / Upcoming Alien Titles
Upcoming Alien Titles
Alien Movies
Alien Movies
Featured Content
Scified Network
A Different Kind of Human

A Different Kind of Human

3 Upvotes33 RepliesUpvoteAdd A Reply
Forum Topic

BigDave

Jul-08-2019 4:32 PM

I was meaning to Post this a Month ago... Sparked by Aurora's New Song A Different Kind of Human she was the Artist who gave us the Alien Covenant Trailer Sound Track.

While Listening to her New Album the Title Song made me think about HOW connected it could be to the Franchise as far as Creation.

I had been meaning for a While to make a Similar Topic to this, i kind of already had, but this Song got me to make a New One to Discus the Different Kinds of Humans.  The Aurora Song does Fit the Topic I recommend you Listen to it ;)

Prometheus had gave us a Plot that our Origins came from being Seeded/Engineered by a Ancient Alien Humanoid Race.   Ridley Scott had confirmed the Engineers were the Forerunners of Mankind.

He had also suggested the Engineers had came to Visit Mankind over Periods of Thousands of Years to EVOLVE us both Technologically (Knowledge) and Genetically.  And revealed that the Engineers had seeded MANY Worlds.  It was also revealed that the Engineers had also wiped out previous Creations they deemed Failure, and indicated that the same had been done before on Earth, mentioning ATLANTIS.

Engineering and Experimenting with Life in their Image seems to be something the Engineers and their Hierarchy were Heavily Involved in.

With Alien Covenant we had Ridley Scott make some Revelations about the Engineers, calling those on Planet 4 the ORIGINALS...  However they appeared to be just as Much Human as Engineer and it was speculated they could be HYBRIDS.... However from RS Comments this is NOT the case, so the Prometheus Engineers must be a Different Kind of Engineers, and as we SHARE a DNA Match with the Prometheus Engineers, we must also SHARE a Genetic Link to the Planet 4 Engineers.

What we essentially had been shown or so it seemed, is that Mankind are a Engineered Humanoid Race based off the Engineers, we cant assume that Mankind on Earth are the ONLY such Creation, and their may be many Various Kinds of Humanoids.

Essentially Engineers, Humans we are all just Different Kinds of Human.   It seems that RS had intended to cover the Greater Scope of Creation, Genetic Engineering, and NOT be related to just the Black Goo and Xenomorphs.

We can take this Genetic Engineer even further from the Engineers, we see that Peter Weyland had accomplished many things, Medical/Genetic Advancements included.  We could speculate that in the Near Future (even as of NOW) Science can Target Certain Genomes and Engineer Embryo's/Babies, a lot of such Research can Eradicate many Genetic Flaws.   As Science Progresses we would be able to Basically alter a Human Genome to Engineer and Add/Replace Certain Genetic Traits, not limited to Appearance and Race, but Physical Abilities and Intelligence.  We can only Speculate if such has happened within the Franchise... it appeared that Weyland Instead concentrated on Synthetic Humans (David).

Bladerunner takes the Genetic Engineering approach with the Replicants, essentially this is Genetic Engineering of a Übermensch (Super Human) and its likely the Prometheus Engineers are such a Engineered Übermensch version of our Planet 4 Engineers.

The Franchise seems to cover the Pursuit of Perfection, and Genetic Engineering/Evolution seem to be a KEY part...   so we can Speculate on HOW MANY different Kinds of Human had been Engineered in the Past by the Engineers.  And also how many could be Engineered by Humans in Future.

Which brings me to DAVID... and to Ponder if his Agenda in the Sequel would be to Engineer his very own Different Kind of Human too,  Davids Pursuit of his own Übermensch is were I Predict the Franchise was heading.

The Franchise has Potential to expand and show us other Humans the Engineers had been Involved in, the Scope of the Plot should not be Limited to just Earth, LV-223 and Planet 4.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

33 Responses to A Different Kind of Human

BigDave

Jul-08-2019 5:03 PM

The Aurora Song also indicates about incoming Creators coming to Earth in a Mothership to take some Humans who are Different to HOME.  Mentioning also about Superman (Übermensch) talking about being Infected and Different and Worthy of not Staying in this Place (Earth).

Its easy to connect the Song to Potentially what the Engineers could have done in the Past...  Engineer Worlds and Humanoids to then TAKE the results they are proud of and aimed for away to another Place.

This is what i Speculated Planet 4 was before RS made his comments about those Engineers are the Originals.. I thought prior that maybe the Engineers Seed Worlds and Evolve Humanoid Life to obtain certain Specimens and then take these to Planet 4 as a place to Store more Pure/Perfect Genetic Stock.

Prior to Alien Covenant i had speculated and even intended to use for my Future Prometheus Movie ideas, that the Engineers would come back/forth from Earth taking Generations of Humans to LV-223 to  UPGRADE and then Seed Back.

My Prometheus 3 would have sent David and Dr Shaw to a FAR FAR away Engineer World were there are Humans and Engineers Living in Harmony... as i could not see that the Engineers would Put all their Eggs in One Basket, and so its likely Different Kinds of Humans live across the Galaxy.  

Even if we ignore that, i find it VERY odd the Engineers seemed to put a lot of Effort into Mankind to then Destroy us when its our Ways and Knowledge and Free-will that lead us to be Fallen...  A Child HOWEVER is born Pure.  So i found it VERY likely the Engineers would have came to Earth and TAKEN some Children Away to another PLACE... before they then would UNLEASH the Reset Switch on Earth.  Think just as God did with Noah and the Ark.

A part  Aurora's Song mentions Similar. 

"There is a flaw in man-made matters"  we could consider this as the Corrupt ways of Man


"But you are pure, and we have to get you out of here" could be taken as the taking of the Pure and UN-CoruptThis is how GOD had viewed Noah.

Its likely after all the Effort the Engineers would also do the same with Mankind and Rescue some of us, and Children would be Innocent and Free from the Ways of Man that offended the Engineers.   The only way Logically the Engineers would-not attempt to TAKE some Humans away would be if there are MANY other Humans in the Galaxy or we came from some other Place.

I think this could link to David's Agenda... it seems he was disappointed with Mankind due to our Ways and how we Treated him, he felt Dr Shaw was Different (never met anyone so kind) and as he said to Daniels...  when she asked what Kind of a World could they Build.... "if we are KIND it  would be a KIND World"

So we could maybe see David go on to create his OWN kind of Human from the Embryo's not only trying to Improve on what the Engineers had done, but Human Embryos could be Raised to Children who are FREE from any Influences apart from those David would give them.

This in PART is what i felt we would see and it also seems similar to Ridley Scotts  TV Series Raised by Wolves.

The BROAD purpose of this Topic is to Discus the Various Kinds of Humanoids the Franchise could have, not Limited to Various Engineers, or Humans but also to what Mankind or David could do with the Engineers Secrets as far as Genetic Engineering and Pursuit of Perfection.

The indication by Ridley Scott that the Engineers Seed and Visit many Worlds and Genetically and Technologically Advanced Civilizations they Visit, and also that they also Destroy those they are Displeased/Feel Threatened by, indicating that they had done this to the Atlantis Civilization

When looking at how he also called the Engineers a Civilization and NOT a Race, and also mentioning that just as their are many Variants of Humans then WHY cant the same be said for the Engineers.

So within the Franchise the Potential is there for many Versions of Humanoids.... not only Created by Engineers, but also those who USE the Engineers Tools.

Personally its such things and the Hubris of such, as well as History and Culture and Conflict of Various Worlds of such Creations that is more INTERESTING than the Xenomorph!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Gavin

Jul-09-2019 2:15 AM

The way I see it there are two possibilities/choices when it comes to the origins of the Engineers...

#1 - They are an ancient race of super-humanoids that are seeding variants of themselves throughout the galaxy/universe, or

#2 - They were humans from Earth that stumbled across the Juggernauts and were granted a slice of paradise in return for their services of seeding/wiping out planets.

A lot of fans believe option 1 to be canon, while I prefer option 2. In truth all evidence shown in-film thus far neither proves or disproves either choice, so I won't bother listing them here. Regardless, it all comes down to what the role of the Engineers is meant to be. Are they our nefarious masters or are they merely slaves being used by a nefarious third party.

The problem in determining which is true is the ambiguity of it all. Nowhere in either Prometheus or Covenant does it state that the Engineers created us, this is merely Shaw's belief. The sacrificial scene could be on any planet, and the form of the life created from the Engineers sacrifice is not shown. While some claim this scene is showing our genesis, it could just as easily be the genesis of the much-fabled Xenomorph Prime on another planet out there.

Same with the Engineers DNA, which is stated by Shaw to predate our own. This could mean the Engineers DNA (of which is 2000 year old remember) predates human DNA in general, or modern human DNA (if the sample had been taken from the preserved remains of a caveman, they would also predate our own).

Then there are the Engineers themselves. Of which we have been shown two variants; the organic (sacrificial, Planet 4) and the biomechanical (LV-223). The biomechanical augments are shown to be necessary to interface with the Juggernauts, but with the organic Engineers being the original Engineers and thus detached from the Juggernaut technology due to their lack of biomechanical augments, it raises the question of where that technology comes from. For me, this together with the organic Engineers primitive technology and language (which has human, not alien origins) heavily suggests that the Juggernaut technology is not theirs, making them formerly human slaves to an evidently more advanced alien higher power and therefore not our masters.

In both Prometheus and Covenant it is inferred that the Engineers rebelled against said higher power, with the LV-223 outbreak circa 2000 years ago likely saving us from the extinction order that had been given, and with the Planet 4 Engineers either stopping development of the Black Pathogen/Mutagen or engineering to create life instead of destroying it. I think this rebellious nature of the Engineers, which aligns them with the dark angels of Christian theology is intended to confuse. To their overlords, the Engineers are rebels and dark angels, but to us, they are our saviors. Demons to some, Angels to others, or as Obi-Wan once wisely said "many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon our own point of view."

Leto

Jul-09-2019 2:16 AM

Interesting idea for a book. But what can we get in a film with multiple human species? Two hours about fingering, playing flute, or dialogues in high syllable? This is the main question we have to ask. And the answer is - we have already seen this many times.

 

Problem with different kind of human - we can see it in many many other works. Same with AI themes. Star Gate, BSG, Star Track. Alien Universe will be just another "skin" for this. Alien Universe has always been about original and non-standard themes.

 

OK. Engineers are space gardeners, but who said they sow only human species? The Earth can be a single experiment, a Petri dish - as Charlie said in Prometheus cut scene. I have to say - it should be a NON-HUMAN species.

 

---

 

But if we talking about different kind of humans. I think Arcturians can be another creation of Engineers. Frost from Aliens said that gender doesn't matter when it's Arcturians. AND NOW - look at Engineers! Look at original Engineers from Planet 4. See the point? May be Arcturians are closer to Engineers, than humans. Arcturians is successful experiment, humans - no. From this point of view to explore the Arcturians would be very interesting. Especially if they have a more biomechanical aesthetics. We even can see the rituals between Arcturians and xenomorphs.

OK. We can go further. How about humans with Double-Y chromosome? Maybe it's not a just mutation, but the intention of engineers. At the beginning of the experiment failed, but then evolution found a way and humans with YY is a true descendants of Engineers. But with a bugs - antisocial behavior may be due to Black Goo. Something from Alien. Creatures of Black Goo have always been aggressive... to another kind: Hammerpedes, Fifield, Neomorphs, Xenomorphs. But within the species, they mostly don't show aggression.

Maybe humans with Double-Y subconsciously don't perceive ordinary people as their own kind.

It also allows you to think about the differences between Sacrifice Engineer and The Last Engineer. It can also be different species. And The Last Engineer something like Double-Y and has more xenomorph traits.

 

Leto

Jul-09-2019 2:22 AM

Gavin

#2 - They were humans from Earth that stumbled across the Juggernauts and were granted a slice of paradise in return for their services of seeding/wiping out planets.

A lot of fans believe option 1 to be canon, while I prefer option 2. In truth all evidence shown in-film thus far neither proves or disproves either choice, so I won't bother listing them here. Regardless, it all comes down to what the role of the Engineers is meant to be. Are they our nefarious masters or are they merely slaves being used by a nefarious third party.

Yeah, I go with it.

 

 

 

ignorantGuy

Jul-09-2019 8:21 AM

@All, by all account the Engineers are not just humanoid but humans, you cannot have completely human DNA but not be human. Culture is a bonus. Therefore cannot be more Engineer races, as there are is a single human race.

Gavin But does the directors/screen writers commentary and delete scenes weight anything for you at all?

The sacrificial engineer was noted that could have been on any planet in the commentary, but in a deleted scene the elder says something to the sacrificial victim about coming back. What do you think that means? Isn't that he will return as a renewed Engineer population? We also know that they groom the seeded planets so that what gets out is their ideal. And a big theme of the movie is about the relationship between Fathers and their offspring. Shaw and the guy from planet of the apes, David and Weyland, Vickers and Weyland, Humanity and old Humanity (Engineers). Also Lindelof (spit on him if you want), says that the scene between Weyland and the big bald dude is the scene from Blade Runner between Tyrell and Roy Batty, with the human in place of the replicant. Shaw's presentation of the painting might be just the tip of the ice-berg of her research, and finding the DNA and movie proves her. Sorry. Is this how science work, of course not.

Also we know that the tear shaped ship from the beginning is Engineer (also commentary), and their technology evolved to the doughnut shape, so no they did not stole that. Maybe they stole something but RS says that not that thing. There language was origin of those from Earth not the other way around. Like that before the destruction of Tower of Babel, so how is that primitive?

"The biomechanical augments are shown to be necessary to interface with the Juggernauts", on the contrary both Shaw and David piloted doughnuts without any. And the "augmented" Engineers interact with the ship by touching buttons, holograms, playing the recorder, using joysticks (as seen even in Alien '79). What implants do you need for that.

But your Obi-Wan quote is right, but your opinion is only based on your need for everything to have a dark and conspiratorial component.  

 

BigDave

Jul-09-2019 4:02 PM

Firstly i will touch upon those points Ignorant Guy you made.

I think sometimes we do need to consider what the Directors and Writers have to say about various subjects, and YES what they say can be changed.  But indeed the intention of the Engineers Plot was to show these guys had played a Role in our Creation, they certainly are Genetically Connected.  When people only take on board what we see in the Movie then indeed things are not as CLEAR and become very Ambiguous. The RS comment regarding the Planet in Prometheus does-not have to be Earth, as you pointed out the intention was via the Elder Scenes to show that there was a Long Term Plan to come back.  Essentially the comment by RS is to suggest that EARTH is not the only place they have carried out these Rituals.  As you was indicating we also are shown that the Engineers are likely responsible for many of our Accomplishments in the Past, Architecture/Construction and Language too.

The DNA Match scene was a bit Flawed... it was to give some indication of a Genetic Connection and thus to show us that we came from the Engineers.   But then we can take it to other Races of Humans, we all have different Features and Skin colors that are associated to Race yet a DNA Match would be the same, and we also see Humans can come in Various Sizes.  So even if we look at it as they are a MATCH for us, they could have some different Genes that make them a little different. 

If we take the Planet 4 Engineers they seem not really different to us, they have all the Features of a Human, they may have a Pale Complexion they may have No Hair and have some specific Face Proportions (Nose/Brow Ridge)  but we have to assume they have similar Organs Internally, they have Females and can Procreate and RS had suggested the Engineers on Planet 4 live for about 150 YearsAlien Covenant implies these beings need Water/Food and apart from Pale Skin, No Hair and being about 25-30% Taller they essentially are NO different to us, maybe they are more Intelligent that seems likely.  But you could Engineer a Human to be Taller, to be more Intelligent to have some Specific Facial Traits even a Flawed Gene like what causes Major Alopecia but this Human would still give a 100% Human DNA Match.

The LV-223 Engineers are more Tricky it depends on if their Bio-Suits are actually something Engineered that attaches and binds to their Skin, or this is how they was Created/Evolved to.   I guess we could speculate with a Engineered Superhuman or Replicant would their DNA be a Match... i would say YES.

There certainly is a Theme at play that some dont seem to quite get or relate to or look past.  The concept for the Engineers from John Spaights was that we are a Result of Engineer DNA + Primate, but then indicated they came back over and over to further add more Engineer DNA.. so eventually we would come more closer to the Engineers.  I think Alien Engineers is a Good Source to try and Decode Prometheus.  But Ultimately it should not be considered as Canon, and if people only consider what Visually they see in the Theatrical Movies then it does leave a lot of Speculation and Ambiguity.   But when looking at John Spaights input and Ridley Scotts intentions i dont think what they intend is FAR off what they are intending to show us.

"OK. Engineers are space gardeners, but who said they sow only human species? "

Certainly LETO  the Gardeners of Space Plot does allow for various forms of Life, and so Humanoids should not be limited to just very Human Looking.... take Star Trek we have Bajoran, Betazoids, to a degree Vulcans and Romulans are all VERY Human looking, Klingons and Cardassians a little LESS Human and Ferengi too, but from a Genetic Standpoint they are NOT too different from us.

However other Humanoids are much Less Human, such as the Xindi and Jem'Hadar for a Example and so we can look at the PREDATORS as being similar, they are Humanoids but dont share a lot in common with Humans.

So indeed the Engineers could have taken part in Creating other NOT-SO Human looking Species just like the Four Armed beings that were Hunted by the Predator in Predator Fire and Stone.

So in Context to Various Alien Races, then indeed they dont all have to be Human looking or Connected, they also dont all have to be Created by the Engineers.  And indeed we could ponder about the Arcturians are they created by the Engineers?  I think it would be interesting to Visually see them as a Species in some Visual Format.

But in Context to the Topic (i dont mind discussing other things though).  It seems that maybe a lot of the Engineers intention was to Create Humanoids, but this does-not limit them to all being so Human as us.

We dont know WHY we was Created, i will get to that after, but you have to look at it from the Engineers POV. if they have a Humanoid Canvas then they surely would want to Tinker About with Variations and likely would do so on Different Worlds.  And so its when we see say Star Trek and see HOW close some of those Races look to Each other, they are Genetically closer to Humans than a Cat is to a Dog for instance... so we can Ponder where this connection lies. 

In Context to the Prometheus Franchise, then indeed there could be many various Humanoids where they could all Trace a Ancestor Route to some Predecessor that has been Engineered and Genetically Manipulated and Hybridized with various other Organisms to create a Variety of Different Species.

What we see in the Franchise so far is that the Planet 4 Engineers predate and are related to the LV-223 Engineers, but then Mankind are also Genetically related to them too.   The Hall of Heads beings could be the same as the Planet 4 beings, they could also be different and who the Engineers descended from.

If David was to take those Embryos and Engineer Traits, say he could activate Genomes at Will, he could maybe Create a 7-8ft Race of Humans, who have Specific Eye Color, who Physically have Good Athletic Genes, and Genes that would have them be more Intelligent.   Like say passing on Einsteins Genes that made him so Smart with Height of say  Kevin Nash (Wrestler) or Tall Basketball Player , the Speed of Usain Bolt if you could Engineer their Genomes that gave them the Traits that made them Superior in certain areas compared to the Average Person and Engineered Genes that would make them immune to certain Ailments/Defects so there Life Expectancy is better. (as some Humans can Live Past 100) then these Superior Humans would still have a Human DNA Match.

I guess its only say if David Engineered Certain Traits from other Organisms that their DNA would no-longer match!

I think we would have seen David try and Engineer a more Superior Human from those Embryos the Question would be HOW different would his Creations be?  I would assume Superior in many ways but Visually they would look Quite Human still.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jul-09-2019 4:23 PM

"#2 - They were humans from Earth that stumbled across the Juggernauts and were granted a slice of paradise in return for their services of seeding/wiping out planets."

While maybe not quite what was shown, i think anything is still possible, i think a lot of Fans are not so Interested in the other Plot, and want to see something connected to our Engineers serving some Very Xenomorph like Beings or simply created to Seed Xenomorphs... i am not sure this is what RS had intended however...

The Prequel Franchise not being so ALIEN is something that BUGGED a lot of Fans...  some Fans still wont accept our Space Jockey as related to the Engineers and wish for some very Alien Being or even that it was a Skeleton.

HR Gigers Concept works for Alien did indicate the Space Jockey as being a Suit that Bald Humanoids wore... the Question would be to WHAT end do they have with the Technology of the Ships and Xenomorph Organism.

This is something discussed a number of times on other Topics However.... we dont get a clear reason for those concept works as far as WHICH is at the Top of the Ladder, the Space Jockey/Humanoids, the Cargo... what was the Connection?   This had been covered in Topics like Reload the Starbeast and various others.

Introducing another Species above the Engineers who use them to Seed a Ancient Relation to the Xenomorph is something that could be explored  but thats something thats been discussed before.

We Certainly Dont know how the Chain of Creation Goes, we have the Engineers and Humans that may both branch out in various forms.... we likely have the Hall of Heads guys above them... but who knows HOW FAR back the Origin of Human/Engineer DNA goes... and how Human or none Human the Creators/Origin of this are?

Regarding the Technology.... with ALIEN there seemed a connection between the Ships and the Xenomorph, with Prometheus there seems to be less a connection. The Technology being STOLEN could be open for debate, it depends how we try and connect it to the Prometheus Mythos.    A Interesting thing is that Wayne Hagg had indicated that he feels the Technology does not Originate/Belong to the Engineers... is this just his Personal Opinion, or has he seen more Evidence or even Discussions with those working on the Drafts that has made him conclude this?

The Source i had did try and hint at a Curve-ball, and that Mankind and NOT the Engineers are behind the Xenomorph... some other comments by them, seemed like they was teasing that the Engineers are Created by a Earlier Race of Mankind!

Seemed very odd when i mentioned it on here March 2015.

But then after Alien Covenant we had Steve Messing and Wayne Haags concepts for the Cathedral released.

 

TWO Artist.... same Building.... similar depictions...  that DONT look like our Engineers!

I would love to ask Wayne and Steve about those Concepts and WHY are those Ancient Humans depicted on them.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Gavin

Jul-10-2019 12:21 AM

@ignorantGuy

Ridley Scott's commentary and comments should be taken with a pinch of salt. If I had a dime for every time he has changed his mind or contradicted himself I'd be able to fund the next movie. I remember Scott saying in the commentary for Alien that the Space Jockey was benevolent. Yet the Last Engineer, of which we are now to believe is the Space Jockey, didn't seem very benevolent when he wanted to bomb mankind or kill Shaw.

You noticed the language clue. In Prometheus we see David learning Proto-Indo-European, which just so happens to be the language the Last Engineer speaks in the deleted scene. In addition to this, the Engineer dome and the Engineer hypersleep pods are covered with cuneiform, an ancient and PRIMITIVE written language developed by humans on Earth, with traceable origins to earlier forms of written and pictographic language. Ergo we came first.

As for piloting the Juggernaut - when the Last Engineer sits in the chair the flight suit that envelops him seems to connect to his augments in the same way the mask and tubes did when he was in the hypersleep pod. Yes, joysticks, squishy buttons, and a flute are used, but we never really see how or even if David donned the flight suit, of which one would imagine would be important - the Last Engineer sure thought so.

As for the flute. A supposedly biomechanically augmented race flying a biomechanical space vessel capable of FTL, hypersleep and holographic technology activates their spaceship with a wooden (maybe bone) flute. Does that not seem odd at all. For me, it seems like a primitive human mimicking the sound needed to activate the ship, of which they cannot articulate themselves by using the best means available to them... a flute.

And sticking with the primitive human vibe. In Prometheus behind-the-scenes, though I don't think it appeared in the actual movie, at least one of the four augmented Engineers showed in the holographic recording was wearing the same type of cloak as the Sacrificial Engineer (of whom you'll recall was also wearing a primitive nappy, not biomechanical Y-Front's), which is, like the flute, weirdly primitive for a space-faring race. And then there's the primitive look, feel and appearance of the Engineer city on Planet 4.

Although stylized the Engineers are, put simply, stone/bronze age super-humans flying damn UFO's. It's not their tech.

Do I want dark Alien movies; hell yes. Do I want conspiracies; if they serve the narrative? What I do want is a cohesive narrative and not one that makes Ash's mustache-twirling predecessor the next Dr. Frankenstein or Dr. Moreau. I also want the Alien to be one thing and one thing only, be it literally or by its nature... Alien.

 

Also, Shaw's father, played by Patrick Wilson has never in any of the 9 Planet of the Apes movies.

@ BigDave

That four armed alien looks suspiciously like the Nali from the first Unreal game released back in 1998.

I hear you on Alien: Engineers, and as with Starbeast and other "complementary" materials such as director comments and commentary, while they may offer insight the only narrative that matters is that on screen.

As for humanoid Aliens. Although it kinda made sense in the last century with the limitations of visual effects, surely now we should be embracing less humanoid alien forms, such as in Starship Troopers, or War of the Worlds, or The Thing, or Stranger Things' Mind Flayer, and not embellishing the Alien mythology with a creatively limiting and overexposed concept such as humanoid aliens. Maybe the future of the Alien franchise lies with a none humanoid Xenomorph, maybe?

ignorantGuy

Jul-10-2019 1:00 AM

Gavin I am was wrong about the father, I was firmly convinced that it was Jason Clarke. Oh well, that mistake will affect my credibility. 

Sorry but we cannot say for sure that the language is Proto-Indo-European or even something more ancient. What the Engineer speaks is made up just as in Alpha (the dog movie). And the script is NOT cuneiform, as it is an alphabet having a finite set of characters (20-something like English) and not being a whole slew of symbols for every word. The first fully formed Alphabet appeared in the Iron Age in the Middle East (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet). The Phoenicians were Semitic not Indo-European, with the Greeks adopting their alphabet centuries latter. This for mr, as a whole does not make sense, but I don't see how it leads to your conclusion.

Your theory does not explain how Shaw and David fly the Juggernaut not that the Engineers changed ship design during the ages.

The Engineers attire could be explained by religious convictions, look at monks or at the Amish. 

And for who is in the chair, I see no way it is anyone other than Fastbender, given how much RS "loves him". And the Xenomorph is by long time now nowhere near alien. We know what he does, how it does and why it does it. What more can be there to change the facts?

@BigDave

David create a more perfect humanity, and you say he is not a Nazi...

 

Michelle Johnston

Jul-10-2019 5:41 AM

 

@ignorantGuy

The arguments that are used against you are the classic attempt to dissemble by pointing to tactical inconsistencies and changes to the tradition. 

We know that AC ret conned Prometheus and there are glaring inconsistencies in the traditions between the two movies. You are not talking about AC. 

We know the notion of the Jockeys situational purpose  changed over a thirty year period.

We know that Jon Sphait's and the props on the set of Prometheus were superseded by a more speculative view of what happened.

We know that this is merely entertainment and real science can drive a coach and horses through many of the technical basis on which the story is founded. You are a smart guy do not be put of by that argument this is science fiction.

However there are some central tenants to the Prometheus set up that literally tens of men and woman spent many months building into what became the movie and are water tight, including who comes first. Over and over again everyone talks about the search for our creators and no one at all suggests the twist is we created them not one single line conversation anything. 

For those who really want to find the answer to the questions that you have correctly answered I commend the 3 hours Furious Gods Commentary. let the people who made the film answer the questions. 

After that if readers of this thread still feel confused (as Big Dave is by trying to string it altogether in a continuous whole which it isn't) and want to tip the entire proposition on its head (as Gavin does) I am not going to lose any sleep over it.

There are two sad elements to all of this though.

1) People spent months/years working on Prometheus and asking us to think about the idea that we live in an Intelligent Universe where irony of ironies we were created by Dark Angels using stolen technology, why in Gods name is the film called Prometheus (have IQ's dropped round here).

2) The entire idea of hidden behind our creative endeavour  of the last 250,000 years is intervention by a group of beings who lived primitively in one sense but with great power in another is profoundly interesting. It can be seen as opening a door so that we can more easily understand what is wrong with mankind and the direction we are taking. The modern mind can barely understand that great power does not have to lead to lots of cleverness think again people cleverness never made anyone content that comes from simple things. 

The proposition is we should all speak the same language (although Indo European is not that base in a scholastic sense but it is for the movie) again countless fables explain that fragmentation, all of these myths can be explained by how we came about in this entertaining sub created mythos... and at a philosophical level that we were created by a fallen people for their pleasure makes sense. David was, that's Damons point if people care to pay attention. 

Your final comment about David is probably where the greatest irony of all exists. This brilliant sub creation that understands more than any human whats going on because he is not tripped up by an emotional agenda and has the best brain, begins to bleed emotions because of his response protocols and he meets the best of humanity in Dr Shaw and he is not positively affected by that as a rational logical construct?

Only a human being with a conditional gift of 100,000,000 dollars could come up with the twaddle that he has gone mad and wants to kill everything, what a brilliant comment on mankind how limiting, how paranoid, how fearful of relying on a Parasite to make you a profit. Covenant is a parable itself of the original story. 

Prometheus makes it abundantly clear the revolting parasite stems from misuse which lead for one reason or another to the Moons inhabitants annihilation and yet vast amount of time and tapping is wasted on alternatives again its a feedback loop to hubris. Art reflects life and in this case life reflects art.            

 

BigDave

Jul-10-2019 5:54 AM

To touch upon some stuff like the Ancient Engineers, i think Ignorant Guy sums it up quite well.

The Engineers had been given Proto-Indo-European its what David used to Communicate with the Engineer and its what the Engineer (Ian Whyte) had used back but then they was not pleased with his Performance (Whyte) and so they Dubbed over his Voice with basically made up words.

The Writing Language again is a Made Up Cruciform but there are TWO other Written Languages used also (Sacrificial Bowl/Cup) and Urns have different Writing than the Engineers Cruciform the Engineers Cruciform we see on the Juggernaught, and the Walls/Doors of the LV-223 Outpost is also on the Ancient Buildings of Planet 4

There are Flaws and Oversights but we can find these with many Movies, for those who look into these they could be used to Counter Argue who the Engineers are for sure.  The Intention was to show that nearly everything we had learned up until a few Thousands of Years Ago was passed on by the Engineers.  The Premise being like this... if you took say 100 Infants and placed them on a Island with No Outside Influences only that they had Food Provided etc, eventually they would grow into a Small Community that would be more like Cave Men. They would eventually in reality learn stuff over Thousands of Years but the Prometheus Plot is to connect to the Chariots of the Gods Concept where its interaction from Alien Visitors that Taught us most of what we knew.

So this was the intention here, the Engineers could use a Variety of Languages, but its indicated that they are supposed to be the ones who influenced the Earliest Forms of Language on Earth.... but ALAS there are Flaws to how the Team had portrayed that in the Franchise..  Its a OVERSIGHT and IF they was going for a Chariots of the Gods Plot they should have done better concrete research into Ancient Languages.  To a degree we do see some similar to Ancient Sumerian on the Sacrificial Bowl.   They settled on Proto-Indo-European because it forms the Ancestral basis for a lot of Modern Languages and was a Ancient Language that came about at the Transition from Stone Age to Bronze Age.  And so it was also to be a Plot Device so that Communication between Humans (via David) and the Engineers could happen.  Maybe they should have used Sanskrit/Tamil and Ancient Indian Spoken Language and made our Engineers a little more Blue rather than Grey.

But as there are Flaws with the Engineers Language etc, i guess it can be picked apart...  so i think GAVIN we could Speculate that the Engineers came from Earth, and our most Ancient Cultures Predate theirs. 

I think one thing we need to Consider is the Star Maps, its indicated that maybe LV-223 had been about as a Outpost for at least 35'000 years... this is WAY before our Oldest Civilizations.

I think indeed we can look at HOW we see Ridley Scott change his mind a lot, but a lot of this comes from the ever Evolving Landscape of the Franchise, as Movies come along things change... as of 1979 the Queen was not even Conceived... NEVER existed...but things get changed/added.  Some Changes are Forced by the Production Company and Producers.  Prior to 2013 for certain the Xenomorph was a Ancient Organism, and the Derelict had been on LV-426 for Thousands of Years.

So things change.... so as far as the BENEVOLENT being the Space Jockey, it was claimed he had done a Benevolent Act... but it depends whats Benevolent?  We see GOD is considered Benevolent but was the Deluge/Flood a Benevolent Act?  Not from the Perspective of all the People who was KILLED.

We Slaughter Animals for Food, Test Products on them are Mankind considered Malevolent for this? We have yet to Conclude the Space Jockey so we dont know as of yet if the Action of this being is Considered Benevolent.

Ridley Scott had said the Engineers are FAR from Benevolent when talking about a Prometheus Sequel, well he claimed the beings that David and Dr Shaw discover are FAR from Benevolent, but is that only as far as towards Mankind?  He also referred them to Fallen Angels is this only to the LV-223 Kind?  It depends on what is meant by Fallen Angels/Demons it could be merely to show they are Wicked/Cruel and Malevolent or that they had Rebelled against their Creator/Hierarchy and Wishes.

I think when we look at HOW to interpret the Franchise it depends on what we USE and what we DONT use for Clues, and with Ambiguity comes various theories.

IF we only consider FACTS as shown, and only in the Theatrical Release, then it is Dr Shaw and Holloways findings that point to the Star Map/LV223 and connections with Ancient Cultures that indicate the Engineers could be connected to us and who we thought were GODS... the DNA Match was supposed to confirm a connection again it was flawed. (should have said "look its a nearly 100% Match that predates us, we came from them").

The Sacrificial Scene was supposed to indicate the Engineers Donate their Genetic Material to Seed Life, the Story Board for Prometheus indicates that the Engineers Seeding either led to his DNA Reforming to become the Basic Building Blocks of Life and Evolution then took over, or that it was the Catalyst to start Evolution from Basic Cells. Some Concept/Storyboard showed the First Land based Animal to come out of the Sea.  It was to show us Evolution, which is implied to be due to the Sacrificial Scene. 

The Engineers were indicated to come back to Worlds and Further Evolve Life on Planets over many Visits.

IF we however only go by the Theatrical Movies then INDEED there is NO Clear Proof the Sacrificial Scene was our Creation, the Engineers could even had came from us and as you pointed out GAVIN are used by some other PARTY to seed the Black Goo/Xeno-Virus.

What about the ELDERS scene... in this context, it was a deleted scene and so DOES-NOT exist.... so we can Speculate who else was Piloting the Tear Drop Ship.

We have a Group of Fans who see such a connection, because they Favor trying to make the Franchise CENTER around the Xenomorph. I see little Evidence to make them the Center Point......Especially when we consider the Chariots of the Gods Plot, and look at the Genetic Gardeners of Space and what Purpose would LV-223 had suited for many Thousands of Years and WHAT we see on Planet 4...  A Lack of what looks like a Place for Sacrificing for Xenomorphs...  And if we consider what Paradise is in some contexts... then it looks like a Genetic Stockpile of beings that are used to Seed their DNA to Create Life across the Galaxy.

The Ships both Teardrop/Juggernaught Functioning better as just that... SEEDING ships.   But by Virtue of the LV-223 Experiments related to the Xenomorph, it makes some Fans feel this has to be the Center Point and AGENDA.... which i feel was NOT the case.

In Hindsight the Chariots of the Gods Plot should have been abandoned and given a more simple PLOT!  that revolves around the ideas for STARBEAST.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jul-10-2019 6:09 AM

"As for humanoid Aliens. Although it kinda made sense in the last century with the limitations of visual effects, surely now we should be embracing less humanoid alien forms"

Certainly but you would need Humanoids to interact with such other Creatures even if the Interaction is just as the Crew of the Nostromo with the Xenomorph.

LETO mentioned that a Movie about various Humanoids would not appeal and its something thats been done before across various Franchises, a lot of the things in the Prequels had been done in other Movies, the idea was to make a Movie that Expands on the Chariots of the Gods concept, and to ask WHAT else would such Gods create.  It was a Plot Twist to try and Expand the Franchise beyond Queens, Face Hugging and Chest Busting and Ripley.

A Plot that is just NOT as Alien as what people thought about the Xenomorph and HOW it connects.... but a Plot that was to expand beyond the Xenomorph as in the Xenomorph and Shenanigans are NOT the only thing these would be GODS are involved in.

LETO is right we have seen this kind of thing covered in Bladerunner, Stargate etc.... and introducing many Races would be just Star Trek, Babylon 5.....

But how far can you take the Xenomorph and Queen? Before we basically just end up with a STARSHIP TROOPERS

While getting OFF-TOPIC.... I think at some point we have to Find a Balance between the Prometheus the Alien and STARBEAST

While being on Topic... to ponder/explore various other Worlds and Races the Engineers had Interacted with and Evolved and what Engineering that other Races could do with the Secret Technology the Engineers use, is maybe NOT so interesting to some Fans.

To look Beyond the various creations that could have been Engineered, indeed we could start to speculate WHERE did the First Humanoids come from that our DNA came from?  What purpose was their Creation and what purpose did they also Create.

I think Alien Covenant muddied the Waters because the Goo seems to be Interpreted more now to be a AI Virus that seems to lead to Xenomorph/Deacon/Neomorph like Horrors.

So that does open up the debate that has been covered on various topics about WHO would want such a Agenda.. and thus surely some other Species above the Engineers, who the Engineers then STOLE this from to Create Other Stuff...

ULTIMATELY such a Revelation may be whats best.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jul-10-2019 8:06 AM

I think if we try to Summarize the Engineers Plot, then it really is Very Ambiguous, this is why there seems to be NO single concrete Theory.

so we have to look at the Basics (this will be OFF-TOPIC)

Prometheus at its Core was about making a Prequel that connects that our Origins and Mythos and Religions all Stem from the Visitations and Engineering and Teachings of a Ancient Alien Humanoid Race.  These are the Engineers.

It is indicated that they have a Special Creation Tool (GOO) that they use to break down and Seed Genetic Code of Organisms that can then either/or/and Form into a Start of Evolution based off that Organisms Genetic Make Up, Evolve/Hybrid a Organism with that Organisms Make Up.

It loosely attempts to connect various Mythos and Religion but we should not Concentrate on any particular one Literally.

Ridley Scott seems to indicate more about Space Gardner's than anything else.   The REASONS for why they do this and WHERE they obtained the TOOLS to do this are left OPEN.  As is the Very TOP of the Chain of Creation.  Its indicated there could be many versions of the Engineers and that they have Interacted and Seeded Many Worlds.

Its indicated the Hierarchy Govern a Set of Ways/Rules and Rituals by which they intend their Creations to Live by, this includes other Engineers and they MAY posses Technology but this is USED purely only as a means to get to other WORLDS so they can Seed/Create and Manipulate Life and Teach Knowledge (to a Limited Level).

The Engineers Accept these ways, they are like how the AMISH people are on Earth, they can use Technology if they want, but they ONLY use it for Specific Circumstances.  The Engineers Ways/Rituals keep their Kind (maybe also Creations) in check... by Accepting their Purpose and Place and Following the Rules that the Hierarchy have laid out.

It DID-NOT appear their Agenda was to Seed Xenomorph Related Horrors.

We dont 100% know the Reason they Create Life, we know the Reason they Destroy it, which is when Creations start to NOT follow the Ways/Rules and Start to Rebel and they have Concerns their Creations could Behave and Advance to ways they would deem Unacceptable and a Threat.

Alien Covenant kind of Muddies the Waters a little... it leads people to further Speculate that the Black Goo has ONLY a single Purpose... Create Parasitic Life-forms to Destroy Worlds.  If so then WHY and to WHAT end?  Do we then have to assume the Sacrificial Scene was to do just that... Spread/Seed Xenomorph like Horrors?

I dont think this was the intention...

However at some point we do get to the Creation and Encounters with what ever Predates the Xenomorph and its Kin.   But its a bit Ambiguous as there is NO Clear Indication of what came FIRST, how long had the Engineers or their Creators been trying to Create Humanoid Life and Civilizations, before the Horrors related to the Black Goo as far as Deacons, Neomorphs and Xenomorphs.  In context to the Connection/Interaction between the Engineers or their Creators and such Horrors, we simply DONT know which came first...

A lot of these things that are Ambiguous and Unanswered are meant to be either Ambiguous/Unanswered or to have been Answered down the Line.

I have a Number of Theories but thats all they are... they could be CLOSE, they could be WAY OFF and i think even if any Theory is Accurate, as the Franchise moves along things CHANGE that render prior Theories or even Actual Plot Direction MUTE!

In Context to a Certain Branch of the Creation Plot and History, then it does deal a lot with the Sub-Creating of Life in the Image of the Creators. Something that is repeated by the Sub Creation.

The Concept is about Creation and how Creation is a Intelligent Design a Planed and Engineered Design, where sometimes things can go WRONG... Its also about the HUBRIS of Creating something that can gain Free-Will and Knowledge to then Question its Place in Creation and Refuse to obey the Creators and Rebel.  

The Hubris of playing GOD and using Powerful Creation Tools that can lead to Undesired outcomes or Interactions.  Indeed the FLY is a Movie that shows that using Science to Create Something (Teleporter), can lead to Accidental Misfortune...  and using a Powerful Creation Tool can certainly have the Potential for Accidental Consequences.

The Prometheus Mythos is something thats quite Ambiguous and can lead to many Interpretations. The themes seem to have Multiple Meanings.. the same is with the Fallen Angels Aspect.

We can only Speculate that to some degree, we are seeing the Passing On and Use of Forbidden Knowledge/Technology that is Used either in a way not intended or used without consent or Knowledge of those who are supposed to be in Charge.   And that from this Consequences occur but its open to HOW and WHAT these could be.

The debate about Stolen Technology could hold some Merit, we dont know WHERE/HOW/WHEN the Creation Tool was Discovered or Stolen or Created, or WHO was the Creator or Origin of it... it could be some other Race or a Naturally Occurring thing the Engineers had either Taken/Stolen or was Permitted to Use under Certain Circumstances but they had USED it in ways not intended or authorized.

I think that Alien Engineers does offer a lot to UNLOCK what was intended, but so much could have Changed since then.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jul-10-2019 8:41 AM

"After that if readers of this thread still feel confused (as Big Dave is by trying to string it altogether in a continuous whole which it isn't"

I understand the Topic did go this route....  the OT purpose was merely to Ponder about.

*How many Worlds had the Engineers Seeded and Upgraded Genetically using their own Genetics/DNA.

*How Varied could such Creations be, and indeed how Varied could their own Species be (Engineers).

*As Genetic Engineers to what END is their pursuit of Genetic Manipulation.

*What Potential does their Genetic Engineering Knowledge and Tools allow in the Hands of other Species or Creations.

If Peter Weyland had survived and there was NO Engineers left, then we could Ponder what their Knowledge and Creation Tools could be used for.

David has this Knowledge and he has Human Embryo's do we assume his Agenda is to Create Xenomorph like Monsters?

IF the Engineers Creation Tools allow them to Program how it can Manipulate Genes and Hybrid Genes from other Species, then it would allow those who posses this Knowledge/Tools to Create their own Species.

So we can Speculate what kind of Humanoid he could Evolve/Engineer those Embryo's into.

It was basically to discus how the Engineers on Planet 4 are Genetically like us, we are a Different Kind of Engineer, the LV-223 and Prometheus Engineers also seem to be a Different Kind of Engineer.   We can assume Mankind and Prometheus Engineers are all connected to those Planet 4 Engineers and are Various Genetic Manipulations of said Species.

It was a Topic to also consider Real Life Applications of Advanced Genetic Engineering.    There are over 7 Billion Humans on Earth we all share DNA Match but our Genomes are Different

The Genetic Manipulation of a Human Embryo in the Womb could replace certain Genetic Defects that are passed on.  How Long and How Far could we go without a Moral Compass to Create Designer Babies.

There are Genomes for Every Trait of a Human that could be Manipulate to Determine things like Eye Color, Hair Color and we could go on and on.  We have some Speculative Science where they believe that Altering some Genes in a Chicken could Activate Traits that their Ancestors had (Dinosaurs)  while this in Theory some day could Work...

Its limited...  what we see with the Engineers Tools is they can do this, but they can also take Traits from same Birds and Apply them to say Humans to Create Hybrids.  This more so is in line with Spaights concept.

So using a Humanoid as a Canvas.... the Engineers Tools could allow for not only making Superior Humanoids, but also to Hybrid into them Traits from other Organisms.

It is possible the Engineers had done this to Augment themselves or some Engineers had, and maybe in Part this explains our Prometheus Engineers, maybe their is a undesired consequence of this... maybe they encountered a Organism and felt they could USE its traits to Evolve themselves?

My point of the OT was to look at WHY the Humanoid Species is used as the Canvas to Build from.... from a Genetic Engineering Stand Point it makes sense.

If we was to play Dr. Moreau then its better to Engineer a Human and apply Animal Traits to a Human, than to apply Human Traits to a Animal.

Essentially the Engineers and maybe even those above them had played Dr. Moreau in the past... maybe there Genetic Engineering was intended to ONLY go so far and going FULL on Dr. Moreau  had Consequences.

We saw David playing Dr. Moreau too, again using the SAME Tools and Knowledge of the Engineers.  His experiments had a AIM to Perfect the Deacon/Neomorph like Organisms...

One Part of this Topic would be to Wonder how FAR he could Perfect the Humanoid Canvas... Create his own Übermensch

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ignorantGuy

Jul-10-2019 9:22 AM

Michelle Johnston Covenant, David I think is :

1. A Rorschach spot, with many people seeing what they want in him,

2. As the creator of the dick-head rape-monster his has to be a rapist killer.

3. He is also the fountain of endless nostalgia. Remember this line from the original Alien? Or that from Blade Runner? Or that song from Lawrence of Arabia?

4. He is the stand in for RS himself.

I guess he makes sense for some people because of 1.

Gavin

Jul-11-2019 11:40 AM

We have a Group of Fans who see such a connection, because they Favor trying to make the Franchise CENTER around the Xenomorph. I see little Evidence to make them the Center Point......Especially when we consider the Chariots of the GodsPlot, and look at the Genetic Gardeners of Space and what Purpose would LV-223 had suited for many Thousands of Years and WHAT we see on Planet 4...  A Lack of what looks like a Place for Sacrificing for Xenomorphs...  And if we consider what Paradise is in some contexts... then it looks like a Genetic Stockpile of beings that are used to Seed their DNA to Create Life across the Galaxy.

 

This,

This is the problem with the prequel trilogy. Jon Spaights' Alien: Engineers, which was very much an Alien movie that was directly linked to Alien 1979 with a side plot about alien pre-visitation, but with Damon Lindelof's mystery box amendments that became Prometheus the Alien 1979 link became ambiguous and the alien pre-visitation element was elaborated to creationism and became the primary narrative.

Scott, the writers, and the studio forgot one key thing - we, the fans are here because we are Alien fans, general audiences went to theaters to watch an Alien movie, and regardless of what other bells and whistles have been added these movies are prequels to Alien and are set in the Alien universe.

The second problem, we the fans bought into what Prometheus was selling. So we ended up with a non-Alien Alien movie that intrigued the fanbase but upset/confused general audiences. This is why Alien: Covenant happened, the problem is that Scott and his writers and production team want to make a deeper, more philosophical movie like Prometheus, not a space monster movie; hence the "best is cooked" statements.

Bottom line the Alien prequel(s) should have been well made Alien movies and what became Prometheus should have been envisioned as a separate franchise.

BigDave

Jul-11-2019 3:48 PM

I think you make a VERY Good point Gavin, in that the Prequels are part of a ALIEN Franchise and Alien Engineers was more Alieny, less Ambiguous, Spaights work was Flawed however and Contradicted ALIEN but thats for another day.

Some Fans expected more Connections, some kind of related Xenomorph and so i think in Hindsight we needed a Movie that had the Balance between Prometheus and Alien Engineers, i think Alien Engineers was just as much about Creation as Prometheus, it is a case of the Xenomorph Connections had been replaced with a more David and Weyland Scenes/Plot and a LOT less Action.

A Prometheus with a little less ambiguity, a few more clues, a little more Xeno-Related Action (does-not have to be Xenomorphs) would certainly had PLEASED more and maybe allowed the DOOR to ALIEN to be SHUT!

As such we could have seen....

*David and Dr Shaw go off to Find more Engineers and Discover more about them and NOT cover Xenomorphs

*Alien/Aliens Fans get more Clues and Xenomorphy Fix from Prometheus so that the Door to ALIEN could be Closed and these Fans can get more Xenomorph Fixes from Future Alien Franchise Movies.

*The Door is Open to go back to LV-223 and Explore more Different Kinds of Xenomorphy Horrors and maybe offer a more Solid Connection between LV-223 and the Engineers.

The Franchise is in a Mess but we have covered this over and over and over in many Topics... its in a Mess because when Answering those Questions from ALIEN, they felt that ONCE you had Shown HOW/WHEN/WHERE those Eggs came from and WHY the Space Jockey had them... it was a case of WHATS NEXT?

When concluding it was likely that the Xenomorph was a Engineered Product of the Space Jockey, they are left with what to do NEXT! 

More Xenomorph Movies?

So they FELT that giving the Space Jockey the Engineers/Creators Plot could allow them to EXPAND the Franchise to cover more than Xenomorphs and do have a Massive Scope of HOW they can Explore the Chariots of the Gods/Creators Plot.

What happened is some Fans are Disappointed at a Lack of Xenomorph Answers, some Fans wanted to see actual Xenomorphs, some Fans felt the Chariots of the Gods Plot was just NOT as ALIENY as they interpreted the Space Jockey.

But then some Fans felt that actually this Direction has Potential, and was looking forwards to seeing more about the Engineers... some as far as Technology and War.. others more about the Creation and Deeper Philosophical aspects.

So your then left with HOW do you please EVERYONE?

Instead of Alien Covenant they should have released a LV-223 Movie that would give more Clues to LV-426 and be more Action Related and this would kind of CLOSE the Door to ALIEN but also allow for other Movies to cover other Black Goo/LV-223 Horrors.

Then Ridley Scott would have had more Freedom with David and Dr Shaws Pending Oddesy.

But ALAS....

Even so... there are a Number of Fans that would still think there has to be a more Xenomorph Aesthetic Relationship between the Prequels and Franchise that the Humanoid Engineers Plot just does-not do Justice.

Potentially something like this could be Explored... by introducing a way to introduce the STARBEAST but then some Fans would want this Species to be so much connected to the Xenomorph.

In Hindsight the Background Plot for the Engineers was just not ALIENY enough and a FAR cry from those Fans who are used to the more Action Movies/Games and Comics who would not be interested in a Chariots of the Gods, Mountains of Madness type Spin-Off.

PS Gavin...

Indeed as you said....  "Bottom line the Alien prequel(s) should have been well made Alien movies and what became Prometheus should have been envisioned as a separate franchise"

This is what i was pointing out in the Image of HOW the Franchise should have expanded....

The Alien Covenant Route has Forced it into ONE.. has closed the Door on the Engineers a bit, and well came up with a Curve-ball that i dont think MANY of the Fans are pleased with.  

Fans are also NOW going to expect this to be more about the Xenomorph as we are on Direct Prequel Route so other stuff has to be Sacrificed more.  But i never intended this Topic to become like the Various Alien Covenant 2 discussions.

But i dont mind discussing such.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

setaverde

Jul-11-2019 7:52 PM

 

Michelle, if you want dark angels , i give you the god damn dark angels. I put pins on the engineers heads and there you have it, PinHeads, priests of hell, dark angels. HellV-666

setaverde

Jul-11-2019 8:26 PM

It's always possible an enhanced specie to enslave the original specie. Maybe on the openings of Prometheus and alien covenant we still see the original specie having Control Over the enhanced specie. Like on Blade Runner, we know that Somewhere in time, the original specie Will lose the Control of the enhanced specie and a rebellion against the makers begins.

dk

Jul-12-2019 12:16 AM

setaverde Will lose the Control of the enhanced specie and a rebellion against the makers begins

You could be right, but that theme has been done to death with even B movies. That is why the franchise needs a fresh approach. For the big screen, I don't see it happening. It could be explored via streaming services though. The IGN shorts for Alien Day were very well received. Better to get bite sized quality chunks than waiting years for a 2 hour disappointment.

Gavin

Jul-12-2019 3:53 AM

Going back to the topic of the OP,

I don't see David using the two Facehuger Embryo's, the 2000 colonists and their embryo's, or any samples of the black goo to create any variation of the human race. David has been shown to have psychotic, psychopathic, sociopathic, homicidal, and genocidal tendencies, chiefly towards mankind. With such hatred towards humans, I don't see why David would want to see our existence continue, in any shape or form, especially when in Advent he declared he wanted to wipe us from existence.

However, the irony is that this hatred and his perception of his superiority over his creator are misplaced, and despite his alleged intelligence David somehow is oblivious to this. David is a shell, filled with human knowledge, created by human knowledge, created in the human image, and created to emulate the human condition. David is Pinocchio, and as such should be looking to attain his humanity not seeking/developing the means to wipe out humanity in any and all of its forms because if he does so he will have no one with which to converse and no one of which to serve. Because whether he wants to admit or not David was and forever will be a servant.

His experimentations into the Protomorph are a clear example of this. In Prometheus he discovered the black goo and was ordered by his creator Peter Weyland to "try harder", to experiment with what he had found and to study it and uncover its secrets, its possibilities. On Planet 4 David is merely continuing Weyland's work, Weyland's orders. David is still serving mankind and Mankind's interests. Take the attack on the Planet 4 Engineers. The Last Engineer was hellbent on completing its orders of destroying mankind but was stopped. By extension it is reasonable to believe that the Planet 4 Engineers also sought the destruction of mankind, or may even have issued the order, Thus their destruction by Davids' hand serves mankind, serves his creators.

The character of David could have been used to comment on the human condition and the many contradictions within our nature, but instead, he has been turned into a teenager Pinocchio; a puppet that wants to be a real boy, all the while protesting how much he hates his parents. And to make matters worse he uses acclaimed works of mankind (Lawrence, Byron, Shelley, and others) to proclaim his superiority over mankind while failing to see that in reality he has become the Lucifer, Frankenstein, and Moreau of his own tale; a contradictory and misguided character whose narcissism blinds them to the reality that in their desire to transcend their humanity that they have in actuality become less than human.

Once a puppet, always a puppet.

setaverde

Jul-12-2019 6:44 AM

Gavin, David wanted to be loved, but Peter Weyland wasn't Geppetto.

His intense desire for love was transformed in hatred for mankind. David is bipolar as hell, he GOES from One Extreme to another in a glimpse of an eye. He declames poetry because he likes to hear his own voice, due to his Giant ego. David has so many contradictions in his character. He hates mankind, but he loves an audience full of humans. Maybe he creates, because he doesn't want to be lonely. In Prometheus, he watches the dreams of the crew, while they sleep. So much sadness, to watch dreams of others like a TV show, to fight his loneliness.

setaverde

Jul-12-2019 6:54 AM

Gavin, David wanted to be loved, but Peter Weyland wasn't Geppetto.

His intense desire for love was transformed in hatred for mankind. David is bipolar as hell, he GOES from One Extreme to another in a glimpse of an eye. He declames poetry because he likes to hear his own voice, due to his Giant ego. David has so many contradictions in his character. He hates mankind, but he loves an audience full of humans. Maybe he creates, because he doesn't want to be lonely. In Prometheus, he watches the dreams of the crew, while they sleep. So much sadness, to watch dreams of others like a TV show, to fight his loneliness.

The bipolarity of David is always present. He loves Doctor Elizabeth Shaw, but she's human and he hates humans. A human made him and never Gave him love like a FATHER gives love to his Son. For his father, he is a soulless ambulating object, a mean to achieve an ending, Immortality!

BigDave

Jul-12-2019 7:43 AM

"I don't see David using the two Facehuger Embryo's, the 2000 colonists and their embryo's, or any samples of the black goo to create any variation of the human race"

We certainly get that idea.... and having Today Finally Discovered and Read the TWO Drafts for Alien Covenant it does further paint the Picture that his Agenda is purely to Perfect and Mass Produce his Masterpiece.

If this was his Agenda... what kind of a Movie does that make? he would also had been wise to NOT transmit the Advent Video until he has Perfected his Horde of Xenomorphs.... unless he uses this as Bait thinking the Company would go to LV-223 and Planet 4 and the Horrors there would be Mankinds Downfall...  the Company being more Interested in this than to pursue David, so that he has more Time on his Hands to Perfect his Creation.

I was more drawn to things like how David had offered Dr Shaw a chance to Start a New Eden, from the Ashes of the Engineers World and how he would offer to Evolve her.

Before the Sequel... i had always looked at WHY it is Dr Shaw wants to find the Engineers... the answer was she has NOTHING else left!   However.... if she could have been able to have Children would she still had wanted to go to Paradise?

So i always speculated that maybe David would offer Dr Shaw a means to be able to Procreate, in that he could find a way that SHE could have Children.

Time Passes, and we get to the Sequel, well the Build up to Release and we saw those Leaked Images from his Workshop and i noticed that those Tiny Skulls looked more like Human Infant Skulls... so then i Speculated on here that maybe David indeed manages to offer Dr Shaw a chance to CREATE...   If he could use Engineer DNA with the Pathogen to Create Humanoid Fetus from her Defected Egg Cells.

It was only after the Release of Alien Covenant and revelation of Female Engineers that David had examined and infants that those Skulls were in FACT the Engineers Infants.

So i was wrong on that Theory... but for David who loved Dr Shaw and Dr Shaw having No Children i felt it was still something that could have been explored.

When i then look at the Comment by David about how he had offered Dr Shaw the Chance to Create a New Eden, i wondered if he offered her a Chance to Birth some kind of Humanoid, maybe Hybrid... surely Dr Shaw may have been open to that?   She surely would have Rejected being used to create Xenomorph, Deacon and Neomorph like Horrors and David would surely knew She would Reject such... 

So i wondered what kind of Eden did he offer Dr Shaw?

I look at how he viewed his treatment by Mankind and Weyland and how he looked at Dr Shaw... it appeared that he felt Mankind was not a Worthy Race for the Most Part but there was some who he had Faith in.. such as Dr Shaw.

I then look at his comment to Daniels in regards to "what kind of world" they could create/build.... which he replies "if we are kind, it will be a kind world"

This led me to speculate that maybe he would not be purely looking to Create Xenomorphs, i wondered what plans he would have... but with Daniels knowing who is was is a Problem... but then the Human Embryo's i felt was something that David could RAISE and Imprint what ever kind of History, Mythology and Origin and Rules upon.... so i pondered this Plot Theory.

Then we had RS come out and talk about the Next Movie in how it WOULD-NOT be about the Xenomorph but about AI and "what kind of a world" it is that David would create.  And when RS talked about AI and implied the Replicants are AI....   this made me conclude that David would LIKELY take those Embryo's and Create his own SUPERIOR Humans from them.

IF however.. we ONLY look at the Movie and Advent, then it appears the conclusion would be to MASS-PRODUCE the Xenomorph which Conflicts RS comments about the Next Movie is NOT about the Xenomorph.

I think this is what we would have been shown... but as of NOW the Movie is in Limbo... and WHEN/IF we get a continuation it may be something Totally Different to what Ridley Scott had intended.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ignorantGuy

Jul-12-2019 9:03 AM

"By extension it is reasonable to believe that the Planet 4 Engineers also sought the destruction of mankind, or may even have issued the order", who it is reasonable to believe that? If the Engineers don't live by some method for thousands of years those who issued the order is long dead. We also know that the Engineers abandoned their goo Armageddon habits from Advent at least 2000 years ago as they never tried to nuke Earth again. And there also is the possibility that the LV Engineers are a rebel group (the fallen angel variety). 

David however could be still be following a secret directive unknown even to him, as it was suggested sometime ago.

And why nobody brings up that he signed his Drawings as David Weyland, pretty much wanting to inherit something he hates.

@BigDave

At the end of Prometheus, Shaw has 2 things left her faith (probably in a benevolent God) and the need to find what above the Engineers in the creation ladder. That is more than nothing and is motivation enough to begin her dangerous journey to find them. To exchange that with being experimented upon with a weapon by the synth she knows killed Charlie in the faith hope she could procreate sounds very iffy to me.

BigDave

Jul-13-2019 7:59 AM

"At the end of Prometheus, Shaw has 2 things left her faith"

Certainly i forget to indicate that i meant she had NOTHING as in to go back to Earth for ;)

She certainly clutched on to her Faith in spite of revelations and certainly wanted to go to discover these Engineers for Answers.  I just wondered if she could have had Children would that had affected her a little?

Regarding her having Children on Planet 4, this was just something i wondered when we saw this leaked image.

some Speculated those Skulls in the Bottom Left Corner could be some Native Primate, i noticed they was actually Very Much Human Infant Skulls... that got me to wonder had David managed to allow Dr Shaw to bare Children but then he used them for experiments?

But seeing latter images that confirmed Female Engineers i realized maybe they could be infant Engineers too.  Which with the release of AC and Davids drawings we had this confirmed.

I do think potentially David could have tried to offer Dr Shaw something similar, in that he could help her to Create Life, and you are VERY right in that she would be Very Cautious considering the last time he played  apart in anything similar he was responsible for the Trilobite so there is a Great Chance she would say NO!

And this pretty much may be something that happened, it depends what is meant by him offering to Create a New Eden.... because he also said he wanted to Evolve her but she declined...  some of his drawings of Dr Shaw do depict her as being MORE than Human but in NO way a Xenomorph... so maybe he felt he could Evolve Dr Shaw to become a Hybrid and then with her Create a New Civilization of Hybrids... which she REJECTED!

It appears from his Workshop and Drawings that he had been experimenting with Engineer Infants, it was said that he felt the Engineers Biology did not yield as good results as a Humans....

so we could Speculate exactly what this meant.. it could be as far as a Face Hugger + Human Host... but then it could be Human Egg Cells for Experiments... and who knows maybe he could have used her to create some Off-Spring.   There is the Potential that Engineers and Humans could be Compatible or if not quite.. maybe David could discover a way to do so.

But this is all Speculative... Certainly David had some ALIVE Engineers to experiment with, including Infants.

Who knows what POWER the GOO has and how well David knows how to use it and Manipulate it.... if he has any of Dr Shaw's DNA then maybe he could use this with the Embryo's to kind of Create a Clone of her?

Hallett and Hatton were quite ambiguous to Davids drawings of Dr Shaw, suggesting maybe he Resurrected her over and over, maybe he Cloned her or maybe they are just his Vivid and Disturbed Dreams/Fantasies...  One of the Alien Covenant Drafts indicates the latter.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jul-13-2019 8:10 AM

"By extension it is reasonable to believe that the Planet 4 Engineers also sought the destruction of mankind"

I think this is one of the MAJOR Questions that would have been answered by a Prometheus 2 the Engineers Plot and Agenda is still very Ambigious

One Major Question would have been WHY did they NOT come back and FINISH the job?  The Logical Answers would revolve around.

*Do those Engineers on Paradise know about the intended Destruction of Mankind, and they also seek the same?

*Do those Engineers on Paradise know what became of LV-223 and those Experiments, was it always a place to Experiment with Xenomorph like Horrors?

*If they was aware of both counts.... could they have determined the Method of Destruction that was something they COULD-NOT contain was deemed FOLLY and they ABANDONED the Complex.  (if this was the case its likely the arrogant Engineers would feel that without their Help Mankind would NEVER evolve far and become a Threat and we would just end up Destroying ourselves so they leave us to ROT).

These are things i had pondered and discussed on here a number of times prior to Alien Covenant.

The revelations in Alien Covenant, and from RS comments would maybe shed some light on the FALLEN ANGELS aspect, maybe by Virtue of the LV-223 Engineers being as such.  RS had mentioned that they are NOT the original Engineers and that those Planet 4 ones are and so maybe their is a similar connection between Planet 4 Engineers and LV-223 as there is with Humans and David?

For me i see a lot of evidence that connects to the Creationist Plot rather than to Center around a Xenomorph Bio-Weapon Infatuated Race of Engineers.

Maybe i will have to Start a Topic on that subject. but its something i had mentioned on various topics quite a lot especially after Alien Covenant.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ignorantGuy

Jul-13-2019 9:26 AM

BigDave Yes from the release of those early script I've said that those drawings are Synth porn. At least that was unique.

chli

Jul-14-2019 1:37 AM

Concerning Aurora and the topic of this post . . .

According to me, the lyrics of “A Different Kind of Human” is about humanity and that we have become corrupt. But, there are some individuals that are pure and given the chance of getting away from Earth (by a higher power) and start all over.

AC could have taken another turn given the mini-films (such as “The Crossing”). The trailer-song “Nature Boy” is interesting since, in this context, it must have referred to David who is the strange, sad and lonely boy who wanders very far and seeks the love he has not been given by his creators (Weyland and humanity).

David could perhaps have been “saved” by Shaw but his exposure to psychological maltreatment leads to hate and vengeance instead.

Shaw is "a different kind of human" but could she really love a synthetic? Could she really have saved him?

Add A Reply

Sign in to add a reply to this topic!

Alien Day 2019
New Alien: Covenant Forum Topics
Latest Alien Fandom Activity

Alien: Covenant is a sequel to 2012's Prometheus as well as a prequel to 1979's ALIEN. Alien fans looking to know more about Alien: Covenant should check back often. Alien-Covenant.com is an information resource for film enthusiasts looking to learn more about the upcoming blockbuster Alien: Covenant. Providing the latest official and accurate information on Alien: Covenant, this website contains links to every set video, viral video, commercial, trailer, poster, movie still and screenshot available. This site is an extension of the Alien & Predator Fandom on Scified - a central hub for fans of Alien and Prometheus looking to stay up-to-date on the latest news. Images used are property of their respective owners. Alien: Covenant, Prometheus and its associated names, logos and images are property of 20th Century Fox and are in no way owned by Scified and its related entities. This is a fan-created website for the purpose of informing and exciting fans for Alien: Covenant's release. If you have any questions about this site, its content or the Scified Network in general, feel free to contact Scified directly.

Scified is an entertainment media network covering the latest news on the most popular, upcoming science fiction movies, games and television. All content is property of Scified.com unless otherwise stated. Images and names of content we promote, discuss, review or report are property of their respective owners. Scified is independantly owned and operated by a team of dedicated sci-fi movie fans, who strive to provide the best information and community experience for other like-minded sci-fi movie enthusiasts.

© 2019 Scified.com