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Best Case Theory

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Critters5

Jun-20-2019 12:19 PM

I think this video gives a best case scenario for the next alien film in regards to he origin of the beast. Your thoughts?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKtRebklUBU

 

21 Responses to Best Case Theory

Leto

Jun-20-2019 12:59 PM

Yeah. The book was based on pure script without changes. And with book we can understand a original intention of Alien: Covenant.

Black Goo is the blood of Deacon-like creature - this is obvious. Beautiful idea with the great cosmic unknowable creature was replaced on a Green Crystal only for meaningless mystery.

Maybe someday we will get the Prometheus & Alien: Covenant Assembly Cut.

Critters5

Jun-20-2019 2:36 PM

Yea its so crazy how they just dumbed down the story I'm assuming just to push the AI agenda. 

BigDave

Jun-20-2019 7:55 PM

What the OT Video indicates is the Creator of that Video has their own Theory/Interpretation based on TWO pieces of Main Evidence that are NOT what the Original Drafts had... but are EDIT's where the Authors have added Content!

Case ONE... the Prometheus Draft in Question is a FAN Edit that is to Push Towards a Theory that the Mural Deacon is Worshiped/Seen as GOD to the Engineers and its Blood is the Source to the Engineers Black Goo, which has the USE of Seeding Xenomorph/Deacons as its Prime Use.

This Draft is Incorrect as far as the Plan... 

The Movie is Ambiguous but the Sacrificial Cup/Bowl was in the Trailer, this Cub/Bowl was LARGE compared to Holloway and if we assume this is the Same as the Sacrificial Engineers Cup/Bowl then compare Holloway to the Cup/Bowl and the Engineers would mean the Engineer would be about 11-12ft Tall.  (which was the Intention in the Drafts).

If we look at the Alternative Fifield and Concepts that never got used, and we look at the GOO in Prometheus, and then we look at Alien Engineers (Jon Spaights Draft) and look at the Nano-Scarabs and Goo as ONE and the SAME (the Goo began as Scarabs) then when all is considered and looking at Alien Engineers then you would be drawn to a Different Conclusion.

In a NUTSHELL.... Engineers encounter a Parasitic Organism and see the Result, they they become interested in this and Experiment on it for its Traits, while also then using the Sacrificial Goo on these Experiments to further Extract its DNA so that it can be used to Create Various Deacon Related Organisms... and potentially Re-Set Worlds to take on this DNA instead of their OWN.

Case TWO.... Alan Dean Foster worked on his Novel of a Earlier Draft and NOT the Shooting Script for Alien Covenant, using this Draft he had ADDED a few things such as the Discovered Xenomorph Egg... ADF felt that evidence from the Draft and Prometheus pushed him towards the Xenomorph being Ancient and so he felt it was right to add the Scene about the Egg that throws David as the Creator in Doubt.

It is a FACT that Ridley Scott had intended the Xenomorph to be Ancient... but they went for a U-Turn with what became Alien Covenant.  It will ONLY be when/if we ever see the Draft that ADF had to work with, to CONFIRM the Xenomorph was intended to be something David merely Experimented on/with. ADF kind of indicates this was something that he had ADDED, but before his Novel was Finished there would be people a FOX who would have read it, and for some reasons they never TOLD him to removed that scene (which conflicts with the Movie).

Study of Prometheus, the Experiments in Davids Workshop and his Various Notes are indicating that the Xenomorph was a Re-Engineering of the Neomorph, by adding Traits from Various Organisms to Create the Xenomorph DNA which then required a Humanoid Egg Cell to Evolve into the Eggs.

I think its Wishful thinking for the Xenomorph/Gods Blood Plot...

But as far as the David does-not create the Xenomorph this is something that could be CHANGED..

A Flaw with the Ancient Route would be WHY would the Engineers keep these Organisms on Planet 4?  Some could speculate the Agenda is purely to use those Engineers as Sacrificial Hosts for the Xenomorph...

But i dont think this is the route/purpose of Planet 4.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jun-20-2019 8:13 PM

"replaced on a Green Crystal only for meaningless mystery."

The main reason i believe is the Size Difference the Cup has compared to a Human/Engineer.

Compare the Elder Engineer to Holloway, and we see in Prometheus our Engineer that Interacted with the Humans and those Hologram Engineers were CLEARLY not as Tall.

So when your attempts to introduce the Engineers as a 10ft+ Race has Failed due to NOT using Special Effects to make them appear as such...

Then the BOWL is a Conflict there options are.

1) Indicate the Original Engineers from the Sacrificial Scene are a Ancient TALLER version of the LV-223 Engineers.

2) Replace the Sacrificial Bowl/Cup with something ELSE ;)

Regarding the Green Crystal the Source i had said it was intended to be a Stolen Shard from a Obelisk that was kind of like the Tree of Life/Knowledge from the Garden of Eden and was the Source of the Creation Tool.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jun-20-2019 8:27 PM

When looking at the BEST Case for the Origin of the Beast..

I see the Best Case is TWO options... and David Haters cant have their Cake and Eat it... But i agree having David as the Creator was a MISTAKE!

How do we FIX this?

1) Indicate that David has taken the Source of the Engineers Experiments to Create Deacon/Neomorphs and he has INDEED created his own version which is the Proto-Morph.

Introduce the Engineers or another Race who come across Davids Xenomorph and see the Potential Perfection that David has created compared to what the Engineers had....  They take Davids Xenomorph and EVOLVE/RE-ENGINEER it to become the Eggs on the Derelict only they FALL FOUL to the Creation = Space Jockey Event.

So Black Goo is (A) the Deacon is B-D the Neomorph is E-G and Davids Xenomorph is N-P and those Eggs on the Derelict are  X-Z and so David is merely the Middle Man.

2) Reveal some way that the Xenomorph is Ancient and David obtained a Specimen which he then began to Hybrid with the Neomorph and other Experiments to Create his OWN... Potentially Superior Version

Which he can Control.....

Having then see these get Destroyed... but the Company realized there are the Originals on LV-426 they think if David could Engineer these to be controlled then maybe they (W-Y) could do the same.. to their FOLLY!

Some Fans would not like either.... and maybe showing David to have attempted to Create a POOR KNOCK OFF of the Xenomorph, that then a Original Xenomorph Queen goes ahead and Destroys Them with Ease... thus showing David tried but could not Perfect what was already Perfect and just makes a Cheap Weak Imitation...

Fans who expect that had better be prepared to be Disappointed ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Leto

Jun-21-2019 1:53 AM

To be honest - size of cup as an excuse to replace - this is a poor explanation. They replace cup on the Crystal using CG. They can fix cup size using CG.

 

And then, ADF, as I say, worked on a book using clean script. The script, which was approved by the studio and Ridley. He is not obliged to adapt to each changes that the director decides to make during filming.

 

About Alien: Engineers - it's another story with a different plot which is based on --- attention - HORRIBLE WORD --- science! The main element for Sci-Fi. Doesn't matter - Alien' Engineers it's a different story. Using this script for context is not correct! Only Prometheus scripts.

 

And yes - when I first time watch Prometheus I realized what the Black Goo is the blood of the Creature on the mural. This it's all about conflict - all in Prometheus indicates that it was blood, ichor. A gift from Deacon-like creature to Engineers for the creation of life. And the cup confirms it. Green crystal is conflict. The cup can connected with Sacrifice Engineer. Crystal not connected to anything. It just doesn't make any sense. Prometheus and Alien: Covenant has no links to it.

BigDave

Jun-21-2019 6:21 AM

"They can fix cup size using CG."

On One Hand this is a Good Point, as indeed they could have CGI in a Larger Cup but what this would just reveal is that the Sacrificial Engineer was Larger than the LV-223 Engineers, well it would add another Visual Clue that would dispute that those LV-223 Engineers are the same as the Sacrificial Engineer.

Larger CGI Cup/Bowl would push Fans to conclude there is a Size Difference between Seeding Engineers and LV-223 Ones.  Which i dont see a Problem with.

Leaving the Original Cup/Bowl would push Fans to conclude that the Engineers in General are NOT that Giant.

By replacing the Cup then it removes this Clue to Debate/Conclude with, it leaves it open to in Future introduce a LARGER Race of Engineer like beings.. But alas the Sequel showed our Engineers are still about 7.5ft Tall.

So i think either way it was not Necessary to replace the Cup/Bowl they could have kept it, or CGI a Larger one which in either case would lead to some Conclusions as mentioned before.

So we can still speculate was there ANOTHER reason for its Replacement?

Looking at what the Source i had for Prometheus 2 that its a Shard of a Black Obelisk that Glowed Green which is the Source of the Creation Tool, then this (if the Source is Correct) would make sense.

Regarding the Cuts/Drafts i think Firstly with the NOVEL it was based of a Draft, that Changes would have been made too as far as when they got the Shooting Script, but as far as i am aware ADF had added the Discovered Egg, it was something he added and so was NOT in the Draft.  But the Book got the Green Light, so FOX never asked him to remove that Scene from the Book.

When taking clues on board its a Personal case of what you choose to use or discount, and depending what we use can lead us to different CONCLUSIONS.  If we only go by the Movies in Theatrical Form and Discard the Extras, the Deleted Scenes, Concepts, Comments by Production, Drafts and up close look at Props... that are MISSED on screen (well not clear enough to make a conclusion).

Then you are stuck with a limited set of clues to interpret but these are what MOST people would have to conclude with as NOT everyone will look at other content/clues that were NOT shown in the Theatrical.

So what we get then is each persons personnel Interpretation based of purely what is in the Movie, and as these clues are ambiguous there is NO 100% way to conclude which Interpretation is correct.  Everyone is Entitled to their own.

For example... i noticed the Cruciform Pose of the Deacon Mural and i was drawn to my theory which i discussed on here 7 years ago, prior to the release of Alien Engineers Draft, and when i took into account the Cup/Bowl with my Interpretation of the Mural/Movie if further helped me to Conclude for me that my Theory held some Weight.... then with the release of Alien Engineers draft that got leaked, this then seemed to support the theory i had.

Discounting the Bowl/Cup then i was still drawn to my conclusion as the basis of it was the POSE of the Organism in the Mural...  

Some Fans see the Cruciform Pose as a Symbol of Worship, so this indicated the Engineers Worship that Creature hence the Cruciform Pose,  other go further to suggest this means the Mural Depicts the Engineers Lord/God.

That is up to those Fans... but i think something they OVERLOOK is that the Cruciform Pose (aka Christ Pose on the Cross) while it does represent Worship in Christianity and their LORD.

There is a Reason for the Worship of the image of Christ on a Cross.   The CROSS represents to Christians a Reminder that Jesus had Sacrificed himself as the Greatest Gift to Mankind, because via his Sacrifice we could be Granted Eternal Life.

I am not getting into a Religious Debate here, i am just pointing out that some see the Cruciform Pose = God/Lord and Worship of this being.  When in reality the Cruciform Pose is used to indicate Sacrifice for a Greater Good.

And this is WHY i had interpreted the Mural as something they Sacrificed to Obtain the Black Goo..  you could then think this means the Deacons Blood is the Black Goo, but if we look at the Sacrificial Scene then we see the Engineers Blood/Broken down Molecular Genetics are what Formed Life on Earth, certainly leading to Mankind.

If the Engineer had taken that Substance when if we Imagine he was in a Container, his broken down Material mixed with the Water, and was collected into JARS... then pouring these Jars into the Waterfall would have the same effect as the Sacrificial Scene.  You could have used the Engineer DNA on a World and then used some more that is in another JAR on another World.

If we assume the Deacon was given the Sacrificial Goo then it broke down its Genetic Makeup into a Soup (Goo) that then also  fell into a Waterfall then we can Assume the World would have Life that has Deacon Traits/DNA..   This is what we see from exposure to the Black Goo (in Prometheus anyway).

And so thats what i concluded, that the Mural Organism was Sacrificed the same as the Sacrificial Engineer to then make that Mutagen that passed on Deacon Traits, compared to the Mutagen that formed from the Sacrificial Engineer passing on Engineer Traits.

does that mean i am CorrectNot Really, the Theatrical Release is ambiguous a bit so that others could conclude something else.

When we look at Alien Engineers and the Sacrificial Cup then it seems to indicate the Relationship between the Sacrificial Goo and Black Goo are as i had interpreted.  There is NO Mural in this draft, but the Engineer who Sacrifices himself does take a Cruciform Pose after he Consumes the Goo, and then he breaks apart.

But its as i said for those who ONLY see the Movie there is NO 100% Conclusive Set in Stone Answer that makes a Theory like mine STICK.... but there is NO 100% Clues the Black Goo is the Blood of that Mural Organism either.

There is just NOT enough Water-Tight Clues/Answers and so it leaves everyone to make their own Conclusions.

And to be honest.............

I actually think a Revelation that the Goo comes from some being as far as its Blood would be interesting route to explore. It would Conflict the Sacrificial Scene a little, especially as far as what was intended.  But again there is NO 100% Proof that this Scene means this is HOW we was created.

Some see that Scene as a Engineer Sacrificing himself to Spread the Deacon DNA.  And THUS.. the Engineers Never Created us.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jun-21-2019 6:47 AM

Regarding the OT.

As far as the TWO Points.

1) David did-not create the Xenomorph.

I think it comes down to what you read, if you dont read the Book or Consider it Canon, then you could be drawn to Conclude that David had created the Xenomorph, to the Dismay of Many, but then there are differences that Conflict that David created the Xenomorph.

There is Discrepancies such as Chest Buster, Growth/Gestation Rate and Appearance that differ to Alien that could look like David has Enhanced some Traits of the Xenomorph.

David would have had to Discover the Egg at some latter point, because WHY would he do all those Experiments to Create those Eggs? He would NOT have needed to do all of that if he had the Egg from the Start, he just then Replicates those Eggs instead... the only way to look at it in this context is that he tried to use Neomorph and other Organisms to Enhance the Xenomorph.

This is a ROUTE they could still explore.

2) The Black Goo Origins... this is something that has YET to be confirm and Alien Covenant only added that this stuff is a form of Radical AI (only via the Extras) that can be used to Create or Destroy, and can Manipulate/Destroy Cells of Living Organisms with the Potential to Program the Genetic Markers/Traits of Organic Life.

We still dont have the Origins of this Stuff, its a case of would we ever get this or would they leave it a MYSTERY?

They could reveal it Originated from some Ancient Organism/Species and that its this Organisms Genetic Material or Blood..  but its a case of IF they would do this.

Certainly something was the Precursor to the Experiments on LV-223, the Precursor to the Deacon, the Xenomorph.

This really comes down to these TWO explanations.

1) All those Experiments came from some Organism they had Encountered or Created that they used their Creation Tool (GOO) on to take its Traits and use these to Further Create other Related Organisms.

2) The GOO is sourced from some Organism/Species and is used to Procreate this Species in Various Forms.

The thing to remember with Prometheus is it was NOT intended to be a ALIEN Movie that revolves around the Xenomorph

The Bigger Theme at play as far as these Ancient Would be Gods (Engineers) is Genetic Gardeners of Space, who Terra-form Worlds and Seed/Create/Evolve Life on those Worlds.

Those Experiments on LV-223 are NOT everything these beings are involved in or their Prime Purpose over Millions and Millions of Years.

The Prometheus Plot was created to open up and expand the Franchise to Explore Worlds of Creation, that does-not have to Revolve around the Single Purpose of Creating Xenomorph/Deacon Horrors just to use on Various Worlds.

The Plot was kind of NOT as ALIEN as some would have speculated the Xenomorph/Space Jockey Connection and Purpose was....  Its also a BOLD and Deep Plot thats maybe too Far away from the Shooting at and Running away from Xenomorphs that the Majority of the Franchise had shown.

The Purpose of bring this up, is that in Reply to (2) it may have been UNLIKELY that the idea was the Black Goo is the Blood of some Ancient Organism...

But thats not to say that they Cant/Wont take this ROUTE now.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jun-21-2019 8:19 AM

I certainly think the Xenomorphs Origins were from the DNA of something else..

The Mural is ambiguous... but it seems to indicate the Engineers had a High Regard to the things depicted in the Mural it was something of Importance and likely had to indicate either

a) The Mural shows something that was the Source of their Experiments as far as what would become the DNA in the Black Goo.  Does this mean the Blood is the Black Goo?, that could be or it could be that this Organism was the Basis for those Experiments and they extracted its DNA/Traits (with the GOO).

b) This Organism was something they was Trying to Re-Create using the Substance Stored in the Urns.  This could mean it was the Organisms Blood, or they had obtained its DNA via the (GOO).

c) They had encountered another Organism and the Mural shows the Perfected Creation they had achieved from Experiments on another Organism they had encountered using the (GOO).

d) The Organism is a depiction of what they had HOPED to achieve via the Experiments, be that from the Black Goo that is the Blood of some Organism, or the Black Goo is the DNA of a Organism obtained by the (GOO).

In Context to the Xenomorph then we see there is a Connection between that Mural Organism and the Xenomorph, it was NEVER clear which came First.

1) Black Goo came from the Xenomorph.

2) Black Goo lead to Experiments that became the Xenomorph.

It was indicated by RS that Option 2 was what had happened, and Alien Engineers indicated Similar.  Which Alien Covenant has further indicated only this time the Xenomorph was inferred to NOT be ancient. (this is still up for debate).

So the Mural can be Interpreted in many ways, it was however simply to Perform 3 Functions.

i) A Nod to HR Giger a Tribute/Easter Egg.

ii) Highlight a connection between LV-223 and the Xenomorph.

iii) Show the earlier Deacon the Engineers had Created.

The Significance of the Room does also who a Engineer Head, which Milburn asked is that GOD.  The head is likely to show that the Engineers either Created the Mural Organism, or/and was to indicate that they Sacrificed themselves to Create/Procreate it.

The other thing the Room had was the Fresco's of which only this was one CLEAR.

This was left a Mystery it was never answered or any clues given and so its open for Interpretation.

The Organism in Question is Different to the Xenomorph, the Deacon, the Neomorph.  Yet it shares some Aesthetic and Especially wit the Xenomorph.

The Question is this Organism a Precursor to the Mural and the Experiments?  Or is it merely another Result of those Experiments, in which case we then have to ask is this.

a) What they was trying to Create from the Black Goo, but it is NOT like the Mural, the Deacon from Dr Shaw was however.

b) Was this the Source of the DNA that lead to the Deacon and Black Goo Experiments and thus Precursor to the Xenomorph too?

Again its all down to Interpetation... The Fresco has been seen by Fans as..

a) The Creature is Bowing Down to its Creator the Engineers.

b) The Engineers are Bowing Down to this Creature in Worship.

c) It shows this Creatures Birth and it is in a Fetal Position

Here are some Concepts for the New-Born Deacon.

The Pose is Similar to the Fresco Creature and so i think it represents this Creature was Born from the Engineer (Engineer has a Scar on his Abdomen)

I bring this up because when looking at the Basis of the Mural and Experiments, we have to ask what Relevance was this Fresco Creature?

Here is the other Fresco that was NOT shown clear, it was Partially Dissolved/Eroded by the Time the Camera Panned to it.

Some Fans use this as PROOF the Xenomorph was already in Existence...... However those Hands/Arms are also the same as the Fresco Creature.

some Fans speculate this Creature was Face Hugged by a Xenomorph to create Organisms the Engineers Experimented on.

Looking at Alien Engineers it is indicated the Engineers had used their Creation/Hybridization Tool (Scarabs) on some Organism the Engineers had Discovered and from this they had Re-Engineered Various Forms of Xenomorph/Deacon/Neomorph like Monsters

It could be that Holloways Chest Buster from that Draft is the Organism in Question that the Engineers then Re-Engineered and Experimented from... and so in that Context it could maybe the the Fresco Creature is the Origin of the Xenomorph DNA.

However it can be Argued that while Alien Engineers is a Precursor to Prometheus, where Prometheus had taken and Change/Evolved some of the Concepts from Alien Engineers.  It could be Argued they are NOT the same Movie and should not be considered at all as far as trying to Solve the Mystery.

I think the Fresco should be Considered... but for some Fans its not Relevant....  if we ONLY take into Consideration what is shown in the Movies and by that also what 90% of People would have seen and been drawn to (not everyone will re-watch and analyze every scene in detail and so some things are missed).

Then the Interpretations can be quite Varied...

As it stands looking at the Movies Alone is not enough to Conclude the Xenomorphs Origins or the Black Goo or what the Connection is, just there is ONE.

The Origin of both is open for Debate Still and has NOT been clearly shown without NO Shadow of a Doubt.

Not if we Consider the Theatrical Movies ALONE!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Critters5

Jun-21-2019 8:56 AM

Big Dave if you had to bet, which direction do you think they will go for the origin of the beast? David or the Engineers? I thought the video had some interesting points about the size differences of the eggs David made and the one he had on display/derelict eggs. 

Gavin

Jun-21-2019 2:18 PM

regarding Alien: Engineers, one thing that has to be remembered that it was intended to be a direct prequel to Alien. The moon was originally LV-426, the structure was a pyramid, within it were Facehuggers, and variants thereof, and the crashed Juggernaut was the derelict.

Prometheus was an underappreciated visual treat, but Ridley Scott and Damon Lindelof's rewrite attempted to take the mythological narrative of the Xenomorph a few steps backward, showcasing an ambiguous precursor to what would become the Alien we all know and love, but this was lazily transposed on top of Jon Spaights' original narrative - LV-426 became LV-223, the Pyramid became Harkonnen's Castle, the Facehuggers became the black goo, the Magellan became the Prometheus.

Following Prometheus' release the was divisive opinion towards the movie - fans loved it (for the most part) and relished Scotts' plans for a sequel that would delve deeper into the new mythology the movie had introduced. However, general audiences were confused, expecting the narrative to have unfolded as it did in Alien: Engineers, as can be evidenced in the Prometheus HISHE video.

The opinion of general audiences across social media is what saw Paradise become Alien: Covenant. The criticisms highlighted to Scott that audiences wanted a literal prequel to Alien rather than an inferred one, despite that inference and ambiguity have been the driving forces of the Alien franchise since 1979.

While Scott has promoted Alien: Covenant and its even more divisive narrative, it is clear that this was a route taken reluctantly. With Covenant having pissed off the fans and alienated general audiences, it comes as no surprise that Fox slammed the brakes on the sequel, which was originally meant to begin production shortly after Covenants release. Being, as it were, a knee jerk reaction to the opinions of general audiences to Prometheus, Fox and Scott clearly believed they had delivered what the people wanted with Covenant and had planned on immediately continuing that narrative. But when Covenant fell flat Fox and Scott hit a proverbial brick wall - Prometheus was not Alien enough and Covenant was a wrong turn.

hox

Jun-21-2019 3:45 PM

@BigDave, there's a hi-res picture of the mural here:

https://fotos.subefotos.com/072ed0e74c015b43a139e344bbcc9f37o.jpg

To me, this is clearly a reference to the Titan Prometheus who, as we know, tried to steal fire from the gods. Prometheus was punished by having his liver pecked out each day by Zeus (in the form of an eagle). The mural shows four exposed ribs where the Engineer's liver has presumably been ravaged.

If this allegory is true to form, the creature would in fact be the Engineer's creator (Zeus analog), albeit in the guise of a hound-like abomination. He is punishing the Engineer for what he has done.

Intriguingly, if you zoom in to the Engineer's right thigh just above his leggings, there is the faint image of what *could be* a Space Jockey holding an egg.

It's all to easy to see patterns where they don't exist, but in my mind it's ambiguous enough to be a possibility. I've zoomed in very closely. Could simply be scars on the leg, but you never know!

BigDave

Jun-22-2019 2:38 AM

Indeed when First Discussing this Fresco on here, i uploaded the image above, the Pose seems Very Similar.

The Organism in the Fresco does not have a Aggressive Posture though, it is more Fetal as in New Born.  Also Dr Shaw had Similar Area of Scars from her C-Section Abortion.

So i also saw the Fresco has a representation of the Punishment of Prometheus.

The Engineers were loosely implied to be the Titans or some Connection, and so the Figure in the Fresco is like Prometheus. We also have to consider that NOT everything has to be Literal in Context to Mythos or Religion. For example RS had said that Jesus was a Emissary of the Engineers, and so there could have been more Emissaries too.

So my point being that the Prometheus Figure does-not have to be a SINGLE being, it could represent a Group of Engineers.  When we look at the Prometheus Mythos in Context the Engineers in Question must have either Stolen a Fire or Used a Fire in ways without the Consent or Against the Hierarchies Wishes.

The second thing about Prometheus in Context is the Teaching/Passing on of Knowledge/Free-will against the Consent/Wishes of the Hierarchy.

The Engineers were also referred to as Fallen Angels... which means they are a Cast of Engineers or Sub-Creation that had Rebelled against their Hierarchy/Leader and if we look at Fallen Angels then Lucifer was their Leader, and one of his other SINS apart from refusing to Follow God was that he had Tempted Mankind to be granted Forbidden Knowledge. (Apple).

So when we look at this as a Whole... then the Prometheus Mural could represent a Being/Faction of Engineers that had Rebelled against their Creators/Hierarchy and either Sub-Created or Passed On Knowledge/Interfered with Mankind against the wishes of the Hierarchy or they had attempted to Sub-Create and USE the Forbidden Knowledge/Technology in a Unauthorized way.

So that Fresco could imply.... that Engineer/Faction had been Punished by having the Fresco Organism sent to them to Punish, or used on them as Punishment.. or it is a Self Inflicted Punishment as a Consequence of Miss-Use of FIRE.

But it is quite Ambiguous especially if we IGNORE everything apart from whats in the Movie, but then we can Visually see Clues and the Title of the Movie and attempt to Match it to the Mythos of Prometheus, which is what i had done when i found a SIMILARITY between the Fresco in Prometheus and the One Real World Fresco of Prometheus Punishment as uploaded at the Start of this Reply.

Another Note..... the Fallen Angels after the Fall are said to have been Changed into Horrors and No Longer have the Angelic Appearance they Once Had. Which made me think at the Time, that those Engineers on LV-223 looked different to the Sacrificial Scene Engineers and so could this Aesthetic Difference (Bio-Mechanical Suit) had been a Engineering of themselves against wishes of the Hierarchy, and as a Consequence of this... the Fresco Creature was Born!

to the OP... sorry if this has gone off Topic ;)

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jun-22-2019 2:58 AM

"Big Dave if you had to bet, which direction do you think they will go for the origin of the beast? David or the Engineers?"

That depends on if its a case of what i think is the route they are taking....

In this case then it seems the intention was that DAVID was indeed the Creator and the Reason for this is to FIT with the Themes of Prometheus as far as Sub-Creation.

Basically DONT.. Play God and Sub-Create and then allow said Creation Free-Will/Knowledge... this would lead to them also Sub-Creating and we Repeat this...

IF we go in Reverse then we have this....

*If Weyland/Mankind did-not TRY and Create a AI being in their own image, then the Xenomorph Threat would not had been there.

*If the Engineers had NOT Created Mankind or Passed on Knowledge/Free-will then DAVID would not have been Created.....  If the Engineers also never messed about with the Bio-Logical Weapon and Left Clues to the System/Outpost on Earth, then Mankind/David would NOT have found this place.

Thus the Engineers would NOT have been Bombarded, by Sub-Creation (David) that came out of a Chain of Sub-Creating. And this said Sub-Creation (David) would not have Created the Xenomorph.

So the Xenomorph is brought about as the ULTIMATE Hubris to Mankind for Creating David... which RS said he feels is a more Sinister Agenda regarding WHO/WHY would such a Horrific Beast be Created.

The Hubris also applies to the Engineers, had they also NOT tried to be God and Sub-Create then eventually DAVID would also NOT have existed.

So its this Theme of the Hubris of Creation that RS was interested in and applied to the Xenomorph...   So the Message is..

Dont Play God.... let things be Natural because of you start to MESS about with Science then this could lead to Disaster and this applies to US now... the Pursuit of AI could have Repercussions, the Pursuit of Genetic Engineering and also Messing about with Micro Organisms and Pathogens.. in the NAME of Science/Study.....

I think that Last Paragraph applies a lot to what the Engineers had been doing.

So yes DAVID i feel is intended as the Creator in a U-Turn for the Reasons i had put above........

I think its a MISTAKE... he should have Re-Created something similar and more Enhanced.   The indication i had from a Source who claimed to have knowledge of Paglen/Green Draft Prometheus Pandemonium was that David was to Re-Create something that would be VERY like the Ultramorph instead... using Dr Shaw!

They should have gone this route!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jun-22-2019 3:21 AM

"regarding Alien: Engineers, one thing that has to be remembered that it was intended to be a direct prequel to Alien. The moon was originally LV-426"

I think it could be debated... there are Flaws with the Draft that Conflict Alien... for Example HOW did the Company not discover other Engineer Ships on LV-426 or the Pyramid/Outposts?  The Beacon at the End is also sent from the Pyramids and not the Ship.

Also there is this...

HOLLOWAY 

Tell me that's a natural formation. 

(he grins) 
Undeniable proof of alien 
civilization. You were here on this 
day, thirty-one December, year of our 
Lord 2172. History will remember your 
names . 

So that Date is a Conflict.... but it could be a Typo/Mistake... I think the Alien Engineers Draft as a Movie if it was Exactly the same would have Conflicts.

I think Prometheus was a Good Move... but it should have brought over some of the Elements from Alien Engineers and so to Tone Down the Xenomorph Connection/Clues was a Mistake.

More Xenomorphy Scenes and Clues and Prometheus could have CLOSED the Door to ALIEN and then David and Dr Shaw would have been free to go to a WORLD of Great Potential that does-not have to be Shackled down by ALIEN.

For Fans who then want Even more Clues and Xenomorphs.... then they would either have to...

*WAIT! for when/if they would do another ALIEN Movie.

*Or the Studio release another ALIEN Prequel that happens after Prometheus and goes to LV-223 for more Xenomorph Related Shenanigans and Spoon Feeding.

THIS ^^^ is what they should have done after Prometheus.... and then after that go on to make another Movie that follows David and Dr Shaw, that does not have to connect or even be about Xenomorphs and LV-426.

But ALAS....

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Jun-23-2019 3:42 AM

 

@Gavin

"However, general audiences were confused, expecting the narrative to have unfolded as it did in Alien: Engineers, as can be evidenced in the Prometheus HISHE video."

For the sake of variety I will intervene here. Gavin you are entirely correct. What I found fascinating once my reading group had read Regained my fork in the road novel which honoured Damon Lindelof's values for Paradise (not the story one was never written) is all but one wanted me to write "Prometheus" in the same style because it did not make clear enough the points which I built on in Regained.  

I then interviewed people in Canada, New Zealand and the United Kingdom and asked them for their opinion of Prometheus and the answer was exactly what you are saying. It has nothing to do with deep fans convictions about the lore or so called plot holes and pre occupations with distance or size it was simply understanding the story and how the movie fitted with ALIEN.

As I have said elsewhere I took the late changes (Mission purpose and reason for catastrophe) and clarified them. In addition I made it clear that the creature is merely another bi product of the Mutagen. Mutagen = Xenomorph who said that you! and a female member of the crew has a encounter with the creature which is built around the values of Lambert and her physical reaction which was never explained in ALIEN but discussed by Ridley. Furthermore a depraved sociopath is looking on who articulates exactly what this scene and behaviour means from a human stand point.

As regards LV 223/426 as author my comment is there is no LV at all its called a Planetoid in Alien and as artistic licence I refer to it as a Moon and the Lone Craft is becalmed 100 K away in the highlands of the Moon and Elizabeth discovers why right at the end of the novel. As a riff on the viral material (Weyland knows the signal exists) David reveals to Elizabeth he is aware of the Craft and it then slides into the story and the Cargo, its destination purpose and Pilot are vital to MY story. All those who have read the books from the General Audience approve of this and it enable them to move through the story and the important ambiguity which is crucial to my story with confidence.

As public speaking was my career I know you can not confuse people otherwise they lose interest. Whether we like it or not a film in the same universe needs to tick off some connections as well as broaden the story and the themes.

I can not emphasis enough the pre occupation of the audience who would make these films a success do not share the same concerns as the ten people on this forum. I have shown this site to those self same people so it is not my opinion it is their opinion and its good to see you refer to them. When I say anyone of a creative nature should completely ignore the internet and fans sites that is why and I count my work in that category which is far to far along the Prometheus route for Xeno fan boys and to connected to ALIEN for those who're not interested in endlessly troped movies.

The simple point I am making is one can solve all of the problems of these films to out satisfaction, which personally I think is much more satisfying and revealing of the challenges and the story and much healthier than writing the same posts countless times on this forum. Nevertheless in order to avoid hubris myself I know it is of little general interest and a labour of love but it is a very positive source of achievement and I would commend others to do the same rather than constantly repeat themselves.

 

ignorantGuy

Jun-23-2019 5:43 AM

@Michelle Johnston Did people you interacted with complained that Prometheus was too much Von Danichen and not enough Lovecraft as some people comment? (weird thing in itself, as most likely the whole Ancient Aliens theory has its origins in the Cthulhu mythos)

Michelle Johnston

Jun-23-2019 8:16 AM

@ignorantGuy 

Von Daniken to many of the group is synonymous with fraudulent claims not in beliefs but evidence. Lovecraft on the other hand is more non humanoid. Essentially why would you go somewhere just to meet yourselves, his view of science fiction is it is/should be otherworldly. So I do not even agree with this idea that Prometheus is Lovecraftian its internet shorthand and misunderstands LC. I get where it comes from the riffs (Hammerpedes, trilobite and deacon but they are merely echoes of the alien cycle) so that means Creature = Lovecraft which is not what people mean. Aaron Percival who thinks lore talks about liking Prometheus with all its lovecraftian references thats short hand for creation story but thats a short trip to on my god we are talking god.    

To answer your question directly agnostic's, atheists and believers read the books and I think they were all interested in this idea that Prometheus was trying to reinvent belief systems, within this imagined world, that were muddled and obscured by the very nature of our origins. Prometheus proposes we were created by fallen angels who stole technology so our view of the truth is obscured and David and Elizabeth had to unravel the puzzle. 

I  think the most pressing question all of those who read the book was what did the waterfall incident mean so in that sense they were Von Daniken seekers. If you take the films proposition. "They went in search of their creators." they wanted that answered.

Damon was not lovecraftian as proxy for Ridley he is Bladerunnerian and thats how I pursued the matter. It may just be the people I know through my contacts, but when they go out there essentially they want science fiction that answers back here.

What I find profoundly interesting is that on my travels I keep on bumping into the iconography of Prometheus. What that suggests to me is the movie was just short of doing what it set out to achieve show that we have imprinted memories of our origins but they are obscured. its just that as piece of art it was just a little to obscure.

Incidentally all though one is science possibly fact (VD) and the other science fiction (LC) I agree with you they are mining the same area and the distinction unsurprisingly is semantics of style not belief. But people who like science fiction tend to be nervous of religion so LC feels more comfortable. Von Daniken is perceived as replacement belief whereas Love craft was anti religious which is daft because his myth making was a lot like religious myth. (I do not believe in anything but here is evil, which fits with his own personality) Its odd how people who are dysfunctional only believe in the dysfunctional, in that sense I think Giger and LC are the same. But and here is the real point LC and VD are telling a very similar story.   

So to me Lovecraft is dysfunctional exploration (a bit like the creature) I prefer Shelley. 

"Away, away, from men and towns, 
To the wild wood and the downs— 

"To the silent wilderness 
Where the soul need not repress 
Its music lest it should not find 
An echo in another’s mind."

Interesting that having written the book and found my authorial truth I sat down one day on a bench I have used for many years and noticed for the first time part of "the Invitation" inscribed on it, given the Poem expresses the truth of the revelation, big things do come from small beginnings. 

 

 

 

Michelle Johnston

Jun-23-2019 10:43 AM

Just for politeness to the OP we have discussed this passage from ADF's book at least three times I can remember and it contradicts what Ridley has stated but and here is the hubristic part people actually cling on to this to give them the reality that the Eggs were created by the Engineers. How about its just a movie which changed the facts to big up David. The more important question is why people get bent out of shape about a franchise which is riddled with inconsistencies. You have three options :-

1) Ignore them as artistic licence.

2) Walk out the room.

3) Spend your entire life discussing every conceivable element of the journey and what might be true.

Or you could build a fire and sing a couple of songs which would be instantly preferable to listening to that guy droning on in that V.T. which made wish for them to come and cut the goddamn power. ha ha.  

  

Ingeniero

Jul-02-2019 2:50 PM

David had been on Planet 4 over 3,800 Days

The portion of the novel before the point where the supreme example (the ancient facehugger and ovomorph egg) is discussed, David's time spent on Planet 4 is covered, below.

"Hydrated, nourished, interested, Rosenthal discovered that against all odds, she was bored.

Wondering over to one wall of the downed chamber, she found herself running her fingers over a long row of hashmarks that have been carved into the otherwise immaculate stone. Each hash mark was exactly the same height, width, and depth as the one next to it – all three thousand, eight hundred, and some odd. No human could be so precise, and there was nothing about them to think that they had been made by the Engineers. The marks had to have been inscribed by David."

Alien: Covenant novelization, page 219.

 

"The line of precise hashmarks inscribed in the corridor seemed endless.

Her fingertips dancing along the wall, Rosenthal‘s hand rose and fell, rose and fell, as she traced the marks, letting them lead her onward. Lost in her own exploratory revere, it did not occur to her that she had left the domed chamber a considerable distance behind."

Alien: Covenant novelization, page 226.

 

Details from these 3,800 days may work into the best case theory with what happened on Planet 4 before the Covenant crew arrived.  

Great topic Critters5.  The egg had been discussed above so I tried to add a little detail in regards to the days David spent on Planet 4 count and how it was recorded.

Hi Michelle Johnston, welcome.  

 

"Case TWO.... Alan Dean Foster worked on his Novel of a Earlier Draft and NOT the Shooting Script for Alien Covenant, using this Draft he had ADDED a few things such as the Discovered Xenomorph Egg... ADF felt that evidence from the Draft and Prometheus pushed him towards the Xenomorph being Ancient and so he felt it was right to add the Scene about the Egg that throws David as the Creator in Doubt."

I'm leaning towards case two BigDave.  Great breakdown and the studio most likely left it in the novel to keep that space for debate.

 

BigDave

Jul-03-2019 6:10 AM

I still have not read the Official Novel... the 3800 Marks Indicating Days that David has been on Planet 4 is Interesting, i would HOWEVER wonder why he would need to keep a Tally as he is a AI and so he would have a Built In Clock/Calendar and so Marking of Days would not be required for a AI.

But if we are to Assume this is a indication of the Time David had spent on Planet 4 then it would mean that David had Arrived on Planet 4 in what would be Earth Date of Early July 2094

Something to take NOTE is the Crossing which shows Dr Shaw's Hair Growth is something that would take 5-10 Months Depending on Person (Each Persons Hair Grows at Different Rates).   I had discussed this before and Average Growth that she had for a Average Female of her Age would have been 6-8 Months.

So we can assume this indicates that from when Dr Shaw had recovered David's Body/Head to when she had Re-Attached him would have been 6-8 Month Period.

It seems that Planet 4 is in/near the Zeta 2 System, which surely means that the Juggernaught would NOT had taken long to arrive at Planet 4.

So when looking at the 3800 Days that David had been there by the Time the Covenant Crew Arrive, then this would FIT with the expected Hair Growth of Dr Shaw while she was contemplating putting David back together which then would also leave us to Speculate the Journey from LV-223 to Planet 4 could have taken Merely Days... Certainly no more than a Few Weeks.

So it Certainly seems that 7 Months had Transpired from when Dr Shaw had recovered David to when the Covenant Ship had arrived of which we can Assume 5-6 of these was Dr Shaw alone with just David's Head.

I dont think we really have any Exact Dates though... just that about 10 Years 11 Months had past from when Dr Shaw and David had Set Off from LV-223 to when the Covenant Arrived on Planet 4 (End of Prometheus to Events of Covenant).

Speculating what Happened between Both Movies would be Interesting i am drawn to a Certain Period of Events which i could give, but it could be distracting from the OP.  The only Context to the OP would be to Indicate that David had spent a Period of Time between a Good 10 Years, 5 Months in Creating the Xenomorph.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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