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"Quit griping!" "I like griping"

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ninXeno426

May-06-2019 1:40 PM

Alright, I got a gripe. There has often been a lot of talk around here discussing Aliens, and how James Cameron "failed to expand the Alien universe" opting to "normalize" the xenomorph life cycle to that of an insect.

But how many people actually felt this way back in 1986? Things like eggmorphing were virtually unknown to a majority of the movie going public. Aliens after all was a big hit with both audiences and critics leading to it becoming a box office smash, something the Alien franchise hasn't been able to replicate in 33(!!!) years. 

So why is Aliens picked on by a certain subset of fans these days? Did it start with the 2003 "directors cut" of Alien? Or was it Rid Scott's Prometheus,a film that expanded The Alien universe in a decidedly divise manor? And why can't both egg morphing and Alien hive life cycle count exist? 

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

55 Responses to "Quit griping!" "I like griping"

Leto

May-10-2019 10:15 AM

Original Egg > Facehugger > Xenomorph > Eggmorphing > Royal Facehugger > Queen > Egg Laying.

 

Eggmorhing, no doubt, more scarier and alieny process. But I always wondered - what Alien did with Dallas? He looks even more terrific than Brett-egg!

BigDave

May-10-2019 10:22 AM

"I guess you have to ask the producers who wanted Ripley alive, the last survivor of the Nostromo."

Precisely it was Necessary for the Plot for her to Survive and this applies to WHY it was that Newt Survived, she was also the Plot Device to how we got to see the Queen.

It would have been interesting if Ridley Scotts idea of Ripley being killed off and the Xenomorph imitated her voice PLOT, where would this had left a Sequel?  Maybe it would have been a bit like AVATAR lol

Regarding some of the Plot that would have had to lead to ALIENS...

While we have not 100% Evidence (in the Movie) i think we could ASSUME that the Jordon's Rover had Traveled for at LEAST a Hour, I dont think it was a quick 20-30 Min Drive, and looking at the Rover it appeared to only be doing say 20KMPH.   I think we could safely assume that the Derelict would have been located at least 20KM from Hadleys Hope (Maybe for Plot Convenience of the 30KM Blast Radius at its Destruction)

I cant see the Jordon's Xenomorph taking Host after Host all that FAR to the Derelict,  or go to the Derelict and bring back EGGS.

Which maybe leaves TWO Options for the Outbreak!

1) The Colony send some people down to Investigate the Derelict, maybe to Destroy those Eggs but a number get infected which would leave enough Xenomorphs to then Overrun the Colony.   By the Time Mr Jordon's Chest Buster makes its appearance,  those who went to the Derelict would have been infected!

2) Mr Jordon's Chest Buster scurries away, Grows, and obtains a Few Hosts and Finds some place to Egg Morph them and Create the QUEEN!  Which then is able to Lay Enough Eggs to allow for a Infestation.

Thats the TWO explanations i can logically come up with for HOW a Infestation could have came about.

But we have to Bare in Mind the Face Huggers, we can assume these are ONLY activated with close Proximity to the Eggs, so thats something else to Consider...

As its Pretty Stupid to Store a number of those if they are AWARE of the Xenomorph as far as ADULT... it maybe would not be so bad if they saw the Chest Buster and thought this is about as BIG as they would GROW.

Could the Xenomorph (Mr Jordon's) have gone and collected a few Face Huggers and taken them to Hadleys Hope?  I find this UNLIKELY.

Maybe some others went to Investigate what happened to Mr Jordon, Got Infected, was brought back.... this accounts for some of the Dead Face Huggers and the ALIVE ones, maybe they had prevented them from infecting by Acting Early Enough.

Alien Covenant kinda bums out that idea, due to the Quick Gestation and How Little time a Face Hugger needs to be on the FACE (but thats just one of the Flaws of AC).

I think such things that are needed for Plot Convenience are NEVER thought out, as they just dont care to put much detail into such things as most would not Question them.   So thats similar to HOW the Xenomorph in Alien Managed to Hide the Body's of Dallas and Brett, it does not matter.

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

May-11-2019 8:31 AM

"what Alien did with Dallas? He looks even more terrific than Brett-egg!"

It was one of TWO options...  They was BOTH being turned into EGGS which would then require a Host Each, or Brett was becoming the EGG and Dallas was Cocooned to be used as the HOST.

Lets try and make some SENSE of it all...

 WHY would the Xenomomorph only want/need TWO of the Crew?  surely if the Xenomorph also had Lambert and Parker then he would be left with the TWO options.

1) Four EGGS waiting for a Host, so the Nostromo would have 4 Eggs, and a Xenomorph awaiting for whoever came across the Ship.... we could have 5 Eggs if the Xenomorph managed to get to Ripley.

2) We would have TWO Eggs and TWO Hosts, so the o the Nostromo would have 3 Xenomorph's awaiting for whoever came across the Ship.... we could have another Egg if the Xenomorph managed to get to Ripley.

But the Xenomorph only had TWO of the Crew, did the Xenomorph need the others for FOOD?  or did it ONLY require TWO Victims?

I had came to this conclusion NEXT a long long time ago...  the Logical way that the Deleted Scene made SENSE... would be IF this was the route to a QUEEN.

Egg Morph = Queen, then the Nostromo would have ONE Xenomorph and ONE Queen and then knows how many Eggs awaiting for someone to come aboard the Ship.   This i felt was the best way to explain what the Egg Morph would have done...

But this would NOT be the case as we can see from ALIEN 3

And so we still have to WONDER what was the Purpose of the Egg Morph, and WHY only use TWO of the Crew

So again i think another explanation  could be as Gavin Pointed out that there are Variants of the Xenomorph in the Cargo Hold.

When looking at Prometheus and the Alien Engineers Draft, i think this Became the Most Logical Solution....  But with Alien Covenant things could turn out to be different as far as HOW we get Thousands of Eggs and IF we see a Queen.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

daliens

May-11-2019 9:43 PM

BigDave we have to be clear what egg morphing is. 

If the adult xenomorph will implant a facehugger embryo into the body of the host and that facehugger will grow inside what has become an egg, waiting for mother really, we can assume the second victim will be the host for the chestburster. Probably one adult xenomorph is capable of a very limited number of egg morphing. If it was a bio weapon that would be a safeguard against having the xenomorphs multiply at a fast and uncontrollable rate.

So if we assume the xenomorph from Alien had one or two embryos only, it is understandable why he killed the rest of the crew. It would have killed Ripley too, but the script was changed.

But can the egg morphing be kind of a shortcut to its life cycle? Can he implant into the host directly the embryo of the chestburster? He could not do this without immobilizing the host, I can imagine a chestburster out of Dallas and Brett, without the interference of an additional facehugger. And in this case the adult xenomorph would act like the parasitoid wasp itself.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

Gavin

May-11-2019 11:27 PM

@daliens,

The second scenario you infer to b egg-morphing is actually "direct implantation", an idea that was used by the Pred-Alien (Chet) in AvP: Requiem. The writers/directors the Brothers Strause retroactively claiming that the Pred-Alien was an immature Queen and that she was only capable of direct implantation for a short period of time before she evolved into a Queen. This idea makes sense as it allows the Queen to establish a small brood before becoming defenseless, but conversely, the Queen would be putting herself at risk by doing so.

Egg-Morphing has always been referred to as what we saw in Alien's deleted scene - whereby a host, likely after being forced to consume something passed to it by the Alien, metamorphosizes into the Ovomorph stage of the Alien lifecycle. More specifically an Ovomorph slowly encases the host, reducing the host to viscera, and likely reconstructing components from the host (such as the spine, hands, lungs) into a Facehugger.

If we are to look at the Xenomorph as a biological weapon, then it would likely be classed as a WMD (Weapon of Mass Destruction). Once released into an ecosystem, the resulting spread of the weapon would devastate said ecosystem, supplanting all viable hosts with more of its kind until all such hosts were exhausted, after which the adults would eventually die, with only the eggs remaining. Reducing the number of possible hosts the Alien can egg-morph reduces its R Nought (reproductive rate), but in no way can be viewed as a safeguard, because as Alien showed, the creature eliminated potential hosts it viewed as a threat to its young. The spread of the Xenomorph would therefore slow, but the fatalities from a gradually rising number of Xenomorphs would grow quite rapidly. The safeguard against the Xenomorph is its reliance on hosts to propagate. Without viable hosts, any brood/hive of Xenomorphs will die out.

This is where the Queen as an insect-like mother-caste, capable of producing thousands upon thousands of eggs makes the Xenomorph a deadly and more efficient biological weapon, as one Queen could wipe out within a relatively small time frame an entire worldwide ecosystem. Though scorned by some Alien purists, James Cameron's addition to the Alien lifecycle makes the creature a much more effective biological weapon.

But here's some food for thought...

in Aliens, Ripley says towards the end of her hearing with Weyland-Yutani that Kane told her (and the crew of the Nostromo) that he saw thousands of eggs. Yet in Alien when Kane wakes up all he relates to his crewmates is a nightmare about smothering.

By-the-by, James Cameron has a habit of doing this. In Terminator 2: Judgment Day Sarah Connor is shown to know the exact date of Judgment Day; August 29th, 1997. But in The Terminator Kyle Reese never once related that date to her.

daliens

May-12-2019 12:46 AM

on the other hand, Gavin, it would be more appropriate if the xenomorph would have the capability of direct implantation, they could do it on spot, without the need of dragging the hosts to the nest. 

I was reading some interesting facts on Wikipadia about the commercial use of parasitoid wasps and the use of xenomorphs as pest control would be perfectly plausible if the Engineers started to see the humans as pests. This would not exclude the theory of the xenomorph being a species of its own right discovered and deemed useful for the Engineers' purposes.

"Parasitoid wasps are considered beneficial as they naturally control the population of many pest insects. They are widely used commercially (alongside other parasitoids such as tachinid flies) for biological pest control, for which the most important groups are the ichneumonid wasps, which prey mainly on caterpillars of butterflies and moths; braconid wasps, which attack caterpillars and a wide range of other insects including greenfly; chalcid wasps, which parasitise eggs and larvae of greenfly, whitefly, cabbage caterpillars, and scale insects."

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

Gavin

May-12-2019 1:40 AM

@daliens,

Speaking retroactively, I think the Ovomorph and Facehugger parts of the Alien lifecycle allow reusability of the creature as a deployable biological weapon. let us consider the deployment of a direct-implantation variant, alongside the traditional Facehugger implantation variant.

Scenario #1 - Direct Implantation Deployment

Adult Xenomorph deployed subjugates hosts spreading until all viable hosts have been exhausted/killed. Adult Aliens die, leaving behind a devastated ecosystem.

Scenario #2 - Facehugger Implantation Deployment

Ovomorph deployed. Facehugger subjugates host. Adult Xenomorph gathers hosts for further Facehugger subjugation, spreading until all viable hosts are exhausted/killed. Adult Xenomorphs die, leaving behind a devastated ecosystem and hordes of Ovomorphs, ready for future deployment elsewhere.

In layman's terms - you drop one egg off, wait a few weeks/months and return to a world devoid of hosts and thousands of eggs. A highly effective, self-sustaining biological weapon. Direct implantation would remove the self-sustainability of such a weapon.

BigDave

May-13-2019 4:21 PM

@daliens

I think considering a Limited Number of times a Xenomorph can Egg Morph would be some kind of Safeguard certainly. So indeed if we assume a Xenomorph could only EGG Morph a single Host, and then Cocoon another, then Certainly that would explain the Xenomorph actions as far as KILLING (or attempting to) the other Crew Members to Protect the Egg Morph.

I think as far as a Engineered Bio-Weapon this would make sense.  As indeed having the ability to Egg Morph as many Victims as possible would make it a Bio-Weapon they could Loose Control over...

The same can be said for the Queen though, not really a Ideal Weapon, unless the Queen has a Limited Life-Span, or if the Weapon has One Purpose and thats to Eradicate a World/Threat while leaving the Place  a Hostile Environment to go back too...   So a bit like using a NUKE... but maybe the Xenomorph Queen with a Limited Life-Span would mean after a World is Cleansed a Period of Time passes as all that remains are EGGS... then as Gavin pointed out it would make a Viable Weapon.

"Though scorned by some Alien purists, James Cameron's addition to the Alien lifecycle makes the creature a much more effective biological weapon."

I think Gavin it depends, on one hand YES having a Queen that can Lay Countless Eggs makes it a more Mass Producing Threat...  However.....  A lot depends on the Process of HOW a Queen comes about... what Process does a Queen come from, this is something we have YET to be shown and does have a BIG impact on the Organism as far as a Threat!

Example...   Queen Lays 40 Eggs... then the Queen Dies... what makes one or more of those Eggs Host a Queen?  Is it just a RANDOM number/chance, surely NOT?

If it was a Egg Morph then should all Egg Morphs be killed too, then does that leave ONLY standard Xenomorph Eggs?

So a Queen is a threat as long as she is ALIVE, it then depends on HOW does another Queen come about when the Queen is Killed Unexpectedly?

This is something the Movies have not answered (i cant say for any Novels though).   The ability and process of how a Queen can come about is what raises or lowers the Xenomorph threat as far as a Egg Laying Species via said Queen.

A Egg Morphing Species however.. would have the ability to Procreate Eggs at Will, provided it is given ample time to get Hosts and Egg Morph them...   It would NOT depend on a Queen, and thus Halt Egg Production with the Death of a Queen.

As far as a Bio-Weapon from the POV of those who intend to use it, then Egg Morphing would maybe NOT ideal as once you have say 20 Xenomorphs unleashed then they could go around and continuously Egg Morph Hosts and so you would have less control over how to HALT the Infestation..... with only a QUEEN as the route to the Eggs, then if the Queen has a Limited Life Span and a Fail-Safe or you could have a Fail-Safe to Kill the Queen, then you HALT the infestation... depending on HOW a Queen could come about.

Either way as a Bio-Weapon the Xenomorph has its draw backs... its a bit OVERKILL.   Unless we say ONLY had ALIEN and the Egg Morph and as daliens mentioned if a Xenomorph can ONLY perform a single Egg Morph.. 

Then this is a Weapon that while it would have less Killing Potential/Threat due to Limited Procreation, it would make any World they are Unleashed upon, something that you have some Control over as far as Retaining that World after a Infestation.

10 Eggs Deployed...   After Killing Spree...  having up to 10 Eggs (Egg Morphs) remaining... or if 3 of those had Hosts then thats 7 Eggs (potentially) and 3 Xenomorphs left over that could potentially lead to another 3 Eggs.

Compared to 10 Eggs/Xenomorphs that can Egg Morph as many times as they like... that could leave a HELL of a lot of Eggs/Threats.

The Queen likewise.. especially if their is some Efficient way to replenish Queens once a Queen has died...  then your left with a Massive Clean Up Problem.

So as far as the OT goes....  YES they could Co-Exist, its trying to think HOW, as in what does a Egg Morph create, i think as most would not be aware of Egg Morphing i think it could make a appearance in Future...  but as far as being the Procreative Route of the ALIEN Xenomorph as its only shown in the DC, then it can be down to Personal Preference, until we are shown a Egg Morph and Result in Future...    Also it would be interesting in Future to be shown HOW does a Queen come about.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Gavin

May-14-2019 5:02 AM

@ BigDave,

My position is that matters such as canonicity any really matter to the fans, and the version of any movie, especially franchise movies such as the Alien movies that matter to fans will in most cases be the extended home release of a movie, whereas theatrical releases are more geared towards general audiences. As such when it comes to Alien I view the Directors Cut, and ergo egg-morphing scene as canon.

As to how egg-morphing can fit in with the rest of the movies, which predominantly follow the Queen based lifecycle introduced by James Cameron, I feel there are two possibilities...

#1 - many moons ago I proposed the possibility that had Ripley not discovered and torched them that once Brett had fully 'morphed into an egg that the Facehugger within would implant an embryo into Dallas, which could have burst out as a Queen Chestburster.

#2 - a more recent proposition of mine is that the biomechanical egg-morphing Alien is sourced from the thousands of eggs stored within the derelict Juggernauts, whereas the more organic Queen variant of the Alien is sourced from the collapsed "hammer" arm of the derelict Juggernaut.

Option one answers the question of how a Queen would come about, whereas with option two the mystery of how a queen would be formed remains a partial mystery.

We know that Ripley ended up with a Queen Chestburster gestating within her, sourced from a Facehugger attacking her while she was in hypersleep aboard the USS Sulaco. This Facehugger, likely the royal variant pictured above, as seen in Alien 3's Assembly Cut (if we are to consider the Assembly Cut as the canon cut of the movie), would have come from egg onboard the Sulaco (pictured below), which was highly likely left there by the Queen that stowed away aboard the dropship.

This would mean that the Queen is capable of producing, collecting, and guarding eggs that would produce more Queens, using them to create a new hive if and when needed.

BigDave

May-14-2019 5:18 PM

Agreed....   what you said is exactly what i had mentioned, i also felt the Egg Morph = Queen as it made most sense... but later movies would contradict that.... so then i agree with the Derelict having more than ONE kind of Egg Cargo could be used to explain the differences... its certainly what was indicated in Alien Engineers.

The Sulaco Egg was always a Mystery that Bugged People!

Could Bishop had done it? did he have time?, was there another Crew?  It really came down to purely a Plot Convenience that was NOT thought out because it NEVER mattered.

But THANKS to Alien Covenant we could have a Answer for the Sulaco Egg!

We see here SMALL Eggs, that are the same as the Larger Ones that infected  ORAM... we see David had sneaked some Face Huggers on the Covenant that where Small that he had Ingested... 

so it could be possible the Queen Produces Small Eggs that GROW in the Egg Sack/Ovipositor as these make their way along they GROW and are Finally Laid.

So the Queen that got on the Sulaco could have Produced a Few Small Eggs that where Stuck against the interior of the Sulaco and  GREW!

I think that could explain how they got Aboard the Sulaco ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Leto

May-15-2019 12:18 AM

No. Queen can't produce eggs without ovipositor. When Ripley shoots ovipositor - from there yolks pour out, not mini-eggs.

 

I think, mini-eggs it's just a... mini-eggs with mini-face-huggers for rats, birds and another small life forms. They do not grow.

daliens

May-15-2019 1:35 AM

I have another theory: an adult xenomorph can implant a mini facehugger into the body of a host that slowly changes into an egg. The facehugger grows inside the victim's body leading to the classic ovomorph. 

Probably this is how David intends to use the 2 mini facehuggers.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

daliens

May-15-2019 1:50 AM

Regarding the egg on Sulaco, what if Bishop put the egg there. He seemed very interested in studying the dead facehugger.

There was no special order 937, but Bishop was still an android programmed by W-Y and he might have saved Ripley & Co. to serve as hosts. Or due to a malfunction.

However the egg must have grown on board the Sulaco, otherwise it would have been spotted by Ripley before going into cryosleep. 

The egg was also hanging on the ceiling, the queen, no matter how smart it was using the elevator and all, would have put it on the floor.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

Gavin

May-15-2019 3:11 AM

@ Leto,

An ovipositor is not a sexual organ, it does not produce eggs, it merely is an organ used for the placement of eggs (with parasitic ovipositors also used for piercing hosts). However, ovipositors are not unique to insects, as some fish and seahorses also possess ovipositors.

As such a Queen Alien could still produce eggs without an ovipositor, and as BigDave mentioned the possibility that the eggs can grow could explain why Ripley did not discover them (the assembly cut of Alien 3 shows two Facehuggers) aboard the Sulaco.

@ daliens,

Liking the idea of a Facehugger growing inside a host. We not only saw this, in a fashion in Prometheus with Shaws child. but it could also be an interpretation of some concept art from Giger for Alien 3...

However, the idea that Bishop stowed the Facehuggers onboard the Sulaco is, for me, a stretch. Yes, he was fascinated by the Facehugger in the colony's med lab (could David have spread a virus among synthetics that would make them become beguiled by the Xenomorph?), but after the marines destroy the only two live specimens from the lab, the only Facehuggers remaining (not including the derelict Juggernaut) would have been in the Queens hive. The only opportunity he would have had to gather any eggs would have been while Ripley was rescuing Newt. It is possible but unlikely.

As for how the Egg got into its uncharacteristic position I have a theory about that...

You will notice that the alien egg, or Ovomorph, has some tendril/tentacle-like appendages at is base. Some have speculated in the past that the Ovomorph is in some way alive, and not just merely an egg, while others retain that it is just an egg and that these appendages are merely roots.

What if the Ovomorph is a creature either laid by a Queen, or formed from a reconstructed host (a la Brett) that incubates and protects the Facehugger, and that with the tendril/tentacle-like appendages the Ovomorph it capable of moving around - ergo, once laid by the Queen while she was hiding within the Dropships landing gear, the Ovomorph grew to full size and managed to maneuver itself to were we saw it in Alien 3.

BigDave

May-15-2019 7:26 AM

"When Ripley shoots ovipositor - from there yolks pour out, not mini-eggs."

Silly Me...  i should have consider this, as indeed it did show something like YOLKS that was spilling out the Center after Ripley had Shot at it...  

Can we rule out a Queen Producing smaller Eggs? Who knows, if we do go solely by ALIENS then there is a Process from the Queen through the External Egg Sac/Womb  that are Finally Once Fully formed are deposited by the Ovipositor

Which when i now consider that then indeed the likely hood of having a Small Egg like we see in AC, that goes along the Process to become Full Size, appears to be what is NOT going on with the Queens Eggs.

So again thanks for reminding me of that Little Oversight when i proposed that theory ;)

Regarding David's Eggs and if those Small Ones can Grow i think thats something thats open for debate, we cant say for sure either way.

I think maybe the best Solution would have to be the Multiple Cargo Holds/Different Xenomorph route!

A lot depends on IF we get another Movie that shows the differences or HOW a Queen comes to be, so FAR the only information we have IF we throw out the Alien DC Cut is..

As James Cameron had stated the Eggs are Laid by a Queen, the Xenomorph in Alien and Alien 3 were Juvenile and when they get Older they loose the Clear Dome Carapace.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

May-15-2019 7:33 AM

A lot of the Errors and Conflicts come from Various Cuts/Edits of the Movies, then Changes that the Next Director/Writing Team make without considering what was shown prior.   Other Members of Production/The Studio also add what they want Changed Also!

With Cameron he decided to make the Xenomorphs more like a Ant/Bee Nest/Hive and introduced the Egg Laying Queen, which he was in his rights to do so, as the DC Egg Morph was not considered Canon at that Time. (not many would have been aware of the Deleted Scenes, Cameron may of, but as they was Deleted it means he Did-Not have to consider them for his Project).

I am not sure if we would ever see a EGG MORPH or have it Contradict the Queen, i think at some point it would be interesting to find out HOW those Queens came to be though.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

May-15-2019 7:42 AM

Indeed regarding the Face Hugger Growing inside a Host, as suggested on here, maybe the ALIEN DC scene is showing that Brett is being changed into a Egg  Casing that will host a Face Huger he had maybe been implanted with?

Prometheus we saw that Dr Shaw had a Type of Face Hugger growing inside her...

We see from David's Notes that he had a interest in some Mermaids Purses that he Discovered.

It is possible he used these in his Experiments to Engineer from them what became the Egg Casing for the Face Huger Embryos.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Leto

May-15-2019 7:56 AM

Gavin

 

No point clinging to words. Ovopositor or something else. The point is that it is in this "hanging" thing that eggs are produced. Not in the Queen.

 

BigDave

About eggs, egg-morphing and queen. I think, we should ask: how David get all these eggs - small and normal? Well, maybe answer - he used Shaw, but it's not an answer! We still don't know HOW. The process.

 

the Xenomorph in Alien and Alien 3 were Juvenile and when they get Older they loose the Clear Dome Carapace.

Between Giger's Big Chap and Cameron's xenomorphs much more differences than just with dome head. Another numbers of fingers, another jaw structure, etc. details, like blades on hands. No xenomorphs in Aliens is not a older. Some people talk about another cast of xenomorphs (well, you know - drone, warrior, etc.) and this is have a more sense.

Gavin

May-15-2019 11:18 AM

@ Leto,

In nature, ovipositors are only ever used to transport and place eggs, the eggs are produced in the abdomen of the insect/animal. In Aliens there is no evidence to the contrary with one egg being placed and a few more being shown moving through the ovipositor.

Alien Queen Full Scene

James Cameron's statements that his Aliens were older is valid...

The Alien in Alien was alive as an adult for 24 hours, In Alien 3 the Alien was alive for 2-3 days, and in Alien: Resurrection the Aliens were also alive for 2-3 days. In Aliens the Aliens had been alive for 2.5-3 weeks before the USS Sulaco arrived there...

10 days/one and a half weeks for Gateway Station to stop receiving communications from Hadley's Hope (Supervisor Al's comments about three weeks to wait for a reply - 1.5 weeks for a signal to be received by Gateway Station, and a further 1.5 weeks for a response to be received).

2-3 days for confirmation that no signal is being received from Hadley's Hope, and Ripley's indecision to join the Sulaco to LV-426.

7 Days/one week for the USS Sulaco to arrive at LV-426 from Gateway Station (Hicks states 17 days until a rescue would arrive - one week for the Sulaco to return to Gateway Station from LV-426, 2-3 days leeway period in case the Sulaco is late, one week for another Colonial Marines ship to travel from Gateway Station to LV-426).

10 Days + 2-3 Days + 7 Days = 2.5-3 weeks.

The Aliens at Hadley's Hope were more skeletal in appearance, with missing carapace's and, at least in one scene, blades attached to their forearms...

The bladed forearms are not evident in most of the movie, with this scene being their only inclusion. Cameron's answer that such changes are from these Aliens being older is the only viable answer we have, especially as no other Aliens have been shown to include any of the features unique to the Hadley's Hope Aliens.

daliens

May-15-2019 1:30 PM

If we look at the bee world we can try to explain a few things, by comparison. 

A queen bee mates with the drones (male bees) and can lay fertilized or not fertilized eggs. From the not fertilized eggs come the drones, whose only purpose in life is eating and mating. From the fertilized eggs come the worker bees that are all female but not sexually mature. If the queen dies, the worker bees can lay eggs, but not being fertilized will produce only drones. Since the drones do not work or collect food, the hive will disappear. 

How do we get the queen bee? Nothing special about the egg, the worker bees feed a female larva from a fertilized egg with royal jelly, that female bee will thus become sexually mature and will lay thousands of eggs after mating with the drones.

But it is crucial to feed that female larva with royal jelly from the very first stages, otherwise it will be another worker bee.

If we consider the eusocial type xenomorph's chestburster like the bee larva, nobody would feed the poor creature with alien royal jelly unless it is born within hive or a group of xenomorphs able to protect and watch over it. 

 

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

Leto

May-15-2019 2:13 PM

 James Cameron's statements that his Aliens were older is valid...

 

Oh, that's obvious. I try to say - they are not the same species from original Alien. Whatever what Cameron said. How anybody can explain missing six finger?

BigDave

May-15-2019 2:50 PM

There were other Aesthetic Differences between the Alien Big Chap and Aliens Warriors, James Cameron had mentioned the Maturity of the Species for some of the Differences, but he did intend to KEEP to the Clear Carapace Aesthetic but abandoned it as they See Through Part of the Costume became too Fragile for the more Action Sequences.

But again a lot of people will only go by what is SHOWN and not any comments by the Directors/Production.

So there are some Differences, these are from Cameron and his Team Deciding on some changes Aesthetically instead of trying to STICK with the Original...  But each Movie the Aesthetic is changed somewhat.

The Reality is those Working on Aliens and Cameron had came up with a Design that they in part felt was more suited for Action Scenes, and also going the route that these were WARRIORS then some of the Aesthetic Changes could be to make them look more... well Warrior Like.

We have to look at the Xenomorph from the BUG/HIVE POV and so there are different castes for maybe different Tasks... 

We cant Rule out that a Xenomorph can Evolve/Molt itself to some Changes to SUIT what ever role is required... so for a Queen who is Somewhat Incapacitated due to Egg Laying, then she would require the Warrior Class for Protection.

Maybe there is some Pheromone, Telepathic or some other kind of Element that helps to Determine what is required..   So that a Face Hugger who infects a Host and Gestates a Certain Distance from a Established Hive would Automatically Create a Big Chap/Runner Variant of the Species.

Where as ONCE a Hive has been Established and a Queen then any Gestating Xenomorphs within a Proximity to the Hive would Automatically become a Warrior....   When the QUEEN is gone then something triggers a Face Hugger to Produce a Royal Embryo.

(But it could be something similar to how daliens had mentioned in regards to a BEE HIVE).

Regarding the Finger Digits, maybe they felt the Xenomorph Costume benefited from having the Stunt Person inside placing their Hands in the Gloves in pairs, as far as a Production Perspective instead of 4 Individual Fingered Glove....  with the Thumb in addition.  With ALIEN in some shots the Costume Glove as far as 6 digits did look odd as ONE of those Digits had NONE of the Stunt Persons (Bolaji Badejo) Fingers in it, so it was a attached Additional Digit and it did come across as being a bit Wobbly and Odd.

It boils down to a combination of whats going to be better to use as a Costume, while also maybe what could look a bit different as far as Cameron putting his own Twist on the Design.

something INTERESTING to consider is that the QUEEN also has 6 Digits like the  ALIEN Big Chap could we consider this means they are Procreative Versions of the Species, and so would explain the Egg Morph Procreation or could a Big Chap simply EVOLVE into a Queen?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Gavin

May-16-2019 12:47 AM

@ Leto,

BigDave and I are just highlighting Cameron's perspective, which has to be taken into consideration when talking about the eusocial side of the Alien, as he was the one that introduced this to the mythology.

Personally, I believe that the hive/insect/eusocial Alien introduced in Aliens is a variant different to the biomechanical variant Kane discovered and that the "bug" Alien came from somewhere inside the derelict Juggernauts collapsed "hammer" arm; the part of the vessel the Jordens accessed the vessel...

Considering that it is highly unlikely that Anne Jorden dragged her husband all the way from the location of the eggs Kane discovered 57 years prior, it is my belief that shortly after they entered the collapsed arm o the derelict Juggernaut that Russ and Anne Jorden discovered a scene similar to this...

Upon discovering the bound Queen they approached a nearby egg as it opened only for Russ to get Facehugged, after which Anne would have dragged her husband out of there and back to the rover.

As for the Queen, it is my belief that the Space Jockey experimented with its cargo and created the Queen by introducing the Xenomorph to insect DNA.

Speculations aside, its key to take note that Alien and Aliens present their variants of the Xenomorph as somewhat individual to each other, whereas Alien 3 and Alien: Ressurection confuse/muddy the situation. The latter two movies carry forward the Queen idea, but the Aliens produced have a carapace akin to the creature from Alien, instead of the carapace-less look introduced in Aliens.

And then there are the inexplicable and unexplained reasons as to why the "Runner" Alien is the only standard Alien (as in not a Queen) that does not possess any of the Aliens dorsal appendages (the four tubes/nozzles and the "fin"). While it is also important to note that in Alien, Aliens, and Alien 3 the Aliens born shared the leg structure of their hosts, yet for reasons unexplained the Aliens in Alien: Ressurection, despite being born from human hosts (whose legs are plantigrade) somehow had digitigrade legs like those of the dog born Alien in Alien 3. The Aliens from Alien: Resurrection also do not possess the dorsal fin seen at the top of the spine in the variants seen in Alien and Aliens.

BigDave

May-16-2019 6:14 AM

I think it just shows a combination of things, First improvements to Costume Designs, Second each Producer/Directors own unique touch, and Third a change in how the Xenomorphs are intended to be Visualized 

By that it appears the Leg Design is something they now consider is more Standard for the Xenomorph.  As far as the Digitigrade  Anatomy, which we see in Alien Isolation and so by that if we got say a Sequel to Alien that was set between Alien and Aliens, or even a Aliens Sequel set between Aliens and Alien Resurrection i think our Xenomorphs would be depicted with Digitigrade Legs

The Lack of the Dorsal Tubes on the Runner is something to debate about.... 

But the differences between the Alien and Aliens Xenomorphs could be considered as either Separate Variants from different parts of the Ship.

Or maybe there is some kind of Pheromones or other Element that determines what the Xenomorphs Gestate into.     The Drone could be considered as something that is TASKED with Starting up a Colony... Once Established and a Queen is then Established then the Queen or Hive could release something that would make those Gestating Xenomorphs become Warriors.

Maybe in Alien Resurrection there was NOT what is deemed a successful Hive/Numbers for the Gestating Xenomorphs to appear more like Aliens Warriors?

I think the BIG Question should be around the Xenomorph's Origins, as a Purposely Created/Engineered Organism for the USE as a Bio-Weapon (to Clean up Worlds) is the Queen a Desired Trait that is Engineered into the Bio-Weapon?  A Mutation?

Or a Throw Back Trait from what ever the Xenomorphs, Deacons etc had been Experimented from?

Alien Engineers seems to indicate that the Xenomorphs came in Variants and are Experiments from Re-Engineering a Life-Form the Engineers likely Did-Not Create (Holloways Child)  If similar applies to the Movie Franchise, then some more Ancient Organism that lead to the Xenomorphs etc could have had a Procreation like Ants/Bees etc (had a Queen) and so this is a Throw Back Trait.

But then it could be explained as a Trait that was Engineered into some of the Variants of Xenomorph.

Especially if we look at the Black Goo like intended which was the same as the Scarabs in Alien Engineers, then it explains the Process of Davids many Experiments.  But even the Mcguffin Goo we now have could still do that due its Radical AI application, by that Every Organism has a different DNA/Genomes, that would READ as Separate and Different Genetic Code/Program and the Black Goo can thus take the Genetic Code of One Organism and Hybrid it to another Organism.  (not too far off what the Scarabs did). 

So indeed the Creator of the Xenomorph, could use the Black Goo to Create Different Versions and Procreation... want a Flying Xenomorph, then the Black Goo could take the Traits of Flight from a Bat, Bird or Insect and apply them to the Xenomorph to Create a Flying Version etc.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

May-21-2019 7:34 AM

Here is something related to ichneumonid wasps since I think that they had something to do with the Egg-morph:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303956327_The_Braconid_and_Ichneumonid_Parasitoid_Wasps_Biology_Systematics_Evolution_and_Ecology/download

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3497088/

https://nature.mdc.mo.gov/discover-nature/field-guide/ichneumon-wasps

I do not know that much about it but I thought that I could post it here for the discussion if anyone is interested.

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