Proposing Paradise as the last instalment to the Alien prequel trilogy!5 Upvotes41 RepliesUpvoteAdd A Reply
Recent discussions have highlighted a divide in the Alien fandom. While it is safe to say that most of the Alien fandom would like to see the franchise continue, the form of which the continuation should take is far from clear. This has been confused even further with the segregation the prequels have caused within the fandom. Currently, it seems there are two real possibilities; that of either Neill Blomkamp or Ridley Scott's vision of Alien: Awakening, with Blomkamp's being a sequel to Aliens and Scott's being a sequel to Alien: Covenant. Other less likely possibilities could also be an independent sequel, a small screen continuation (unlikely considering recent news) or a soft/hard reboot of the franchise.
Blomkamp's proposal seems to be to retcon Alien 3 and Alien: Resurrection out of continuity and to explore the fate of the derelict Juggernaut on LV-426 following the thermonuclear explosion of Hadley's Hopes' atmosphere processor. Conversely, Scott's proposal is to conclude his prequel trilogy and David's (Michael Fassbender) story while narratively tying the prequel trilogy into Alien, presumably by retconning the Alien to be a creation of Davids, moving away from Dan O'Bannon's (the creator of Alien) vision of the Alien as an ancient alien organism - a concept that has understandably divided opinion among the fandom.
However, there is a third possibility. Before Scott and Twentieth Century Fox buckled to the opinions of social media and ignored the fandom, leading to the development and production of Alien: Covenant the sequel to Prometheus was originally intended to be called Paradise (or Paradise Lost), and was reported to follow Dr. Elizabeth Shaw's (Noomi Rapace) quest for the answers to the existential questions she had following the events of Prometheus.
Considering how John Spaihts' Alien: Engineers became Prometheus, through the restructuring of certain concepts and narratives, it is likely that elements seen in Alien: Covenant were originally conceived for Paradise, which seems to be supported by concept art for Paradise...
Rather than unleashing the pathogen on the Engineer city, it is likely that in Scott's early concepts for Paradise that the Juggernaut landed within the city with David and Shaw being welcomed by the awaiting Engineers. Considering how Alien: Covenant turned out it could be that while Shaw endeavored to get the answers she sought from the Engineers, David discovered the Engineers had abandoned their work in developing the perfect organism; the Xenomorph and upon realizing he could complete their work using Shaw he turned against Shaw and the Engineers, as seen in Alien: Covenant.
However, when I heard of Paradise I imagined something much more elaborate, and from a studios point of view much riskier. I imagined a dark 2001: A Space Odyssey crossed with The Wizard of Oz (bear with me) whereby David and Shaw would have arrived at a grandiose and elaborate biomechanical world and were escorted by a lone surviving Engineer elder (a la Dante Alighieri's Divine Comedy) through the dead world, learning the history of the Engineers, the Space Jockeys and the Xenomorph.
Considering how short of this vision Scott's concepts for Paradise turned out to be, I am curious to learn what concepts others within the fandom had for Paradise, because more recently I have been revisiting my expectations of what Paradise could have been and using them to build the backbone of a possible alternative to Scott's final movie in his Alien prequel trilogy. Here is an outline of what I have thus far...
Opening credits similar to Alien... USCSS Covenant speeds past camera, suffering damage and crashes onto a desert planet.
David walks away from the wreckage and ventures out into the vast desert (similar to concept art above for The Martian) toward an awaiting figure sat upon a rock on the horizon. Approaching the rock the figure is revealed to be a middle-aged Peter Weyland (Guy Pearce). Driven forward by further hallucinations of Weyland, Shaw and Niander Wallace (Jared Leto) David approaches a vast wall with a central gate (modeled after Gigers "the Guardian", below), beyond which is an abandoned biomechanical city, ravaged from time and evidence of an Alien infestation.
Venturing deep into the city David would be drawn towards a tower in the cities center called the Necronomicon. Upon reaching the Necronomicon David steps within and interfaces with the device (similar to the woman in Giger image below) learning through a bombardment of images and memories some of the truths behind the Engineers, Space Jockeys and the Alien. Yet, it would be revealed at this time and hinted beforehand that the wall and the biomechanical city are, like Weyland Shaw and Wallace, merely delusions.
However, it would be revealed that these delusions are not from a fractured and broken synthetic mind but because David has been infected ever since he first dripped the pathogen onto his finger (Prometheus), and that his fall into madness and apparent imperfections highlighted by Walter (Alien: Covenant) were early signs of this infection as the pathogen sought to understand and adapt to Davids non-organic make-up, unknowingly interfacing with Davids consciousness.
The closing image would be an ever-rising crane-helicopter shot of David alone in the vast desert falling to his knees and shutting down as, from an acidic burnt hole in his chest a slightly more mechanical variation of the Chestburster erupts from his chest, scurrying out into the sands beyond.
Paradise header created by Telomeresis.
I think thats a interesting idea...
There certainly was a lot of Scope to HOW a sequel would have gone to Prometheus, and i think its a case of how INTERLINKED where the Xenomorph like Organisms and Engineers Technology, because Aesthetically there was a Connection
I think while some are disappointed with Prometheus as far as the Aesthetic, it appeared they may have given us a more HR Giger Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic, which they had severely toned down for Alien Covenant.
while Prometheus was interesting, i felt that they needed to cover the Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic a bit more in any sequels, or explain WHERE this came from. The Creation, Sub-Creation, Hubris and Rebellion Plot could have been explored but taken to another LEVEL.
I think that incorporating a bit of the UNUSED elements from STARBEAST and HR Gigers ideas would have been a Good Starting Point.
There are some interesting Pointers from Ridley Scotts comments after Prometheus about where they are off to NEXT..
*Ridley Scott did not want to meet GOD in the First Movie.
*Ridley Scott felt the Sacrificial Full Scene and Extended Engineer Scenes had taken away a bit of Mystery.
*David and Dr Shaw would be off to the Planet where these Engineers came from. They would Discover these beings who are NOT Gods, and are FAR from Benevolent.
*But David was bringing Hell with him, and what happens when the Black Goo infects a GOD or a Machine?
While also stating the idea would be to STEER away from ALIEN and the Xenomorph. Some interested bits of information from the above... Certainly NEVER set up a Plot like we got in Alien Covenant.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
That would be an interesting kind of flash back scene.
But there will be fans complaining for various reasons:
- they don't want to see another film about David
- there are no human characters they can relate to
- David still appears to be the creator of the biomechanical xenomorph, although by accident
- the truths behind the Engineers, Space Jockeys and the Alien, being revealed to a delusional David, are therefore delusions
- some fans would compare the chestburster coming out of David with the baby octopus that came out of Shaw
- more fans would be disappointed that Ripley, Newt and Hicks still did not make the return to the franchise
- others will debate if the eggs from LV426 are still there and what is their source
- while others would say that Blomkamp must do the next film because at least we can enjoy a proper bug hunt and some military jokes
- last but not least, Disney would not greenlight the production because they don't GAF about Alien as long as Captain Marvel cashes in.
"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"
I invite constructive criticism, and would, as I asked in the OP, like to hear what others thought Paradise would/could have been. In reply to your points...
- Yet Scott wants David front and center for the prequel trilogy, as evidenced by Davids role and Shaw's off-screen death in Covenant. Like it or not David is the prequel trilogy.
- As I stated this is what I have thus far. It would need another/parallel narrative with human characters, possibly Weyland-Yutani exploring LV-223.
- I Thought you were championing David as the creator of the Xenomorph? I included this part to appease both sides of the debate.
- The truths revealed would not actually be "delusions" but the AI of the Pathogen interfacing with David, this would be shown by the truths answering things we know of the franchise that David doesn't.
- or to the Chestburster coming out of Kane, or the cocooned colonist, or spike the dog, or... you get the point.
- To be blunt fuck Ripley, Hicks and Newt, those characters have had their time.
- The origin of the eggs on LV-426 should remain a mystery. Not all questions should be answered.
- Blomkamp should make an Alien movie, he just needs to remove Ripley, Hicks, and Newt from the narrative and use his ideas to further the franchise rather than needlessly revisiting a narrative that has already been concluded.
- Captain Marvel is probably Disney/Marvels least popular character. Disney wants to dominate the industry and to do that they need plenty of content from franchises they can pool from. This is why they bought Fox, to add to their catalog of said franchises.
I agree that some of the religious elements you frequently bring up should be included, but not overtly. I think such elements should be inferred and ambiguous, such as the crucified pose in seen the Giger painting I referenced for the Necronomicon interface.
Well this would never happen as it would be very expensive with a limited appeal and very few opportunities to merchandise. It would only contain 4 human looking characters out of which 3 are megalomaniacs, and neither of the 4 actors would draw big money for Disney.
Why bring Wallace into the stew, as many say he was the weakest link in BR49 (a movie owned by Sony) and serves pretty much the same story function as Weyland. Only for fan-service? The same with the Necronomicon name, which after 35 years of Ash Williams rings only of fan-service reference to Lovecraft and Giger, but ultimately boring cliche by now.
Ultimately it is a money problem and I don't see how can Disney risk making something else than a remake or a soft-reboot telling the same story as in Alien or Aliens.
Btw, your story has many points similar to a story a read sometime ago.
I think Prometheus was to set up the idea that ALL of our Religions come from Interactions with the Engineers, and so they all came from the same source, Ridley Scott had mentioned before that he saw Religion as a way to CONTROL people. I suspect this is a theme we would see with his Raised by Wolves. So i would agree that they have to be linked loosely... When working on some ideas for Prometheus 3 (as my Prometheus 2 was not based about David and Dr Shaw's Odyssey they would have taken up 10-15 Minutes tops). I was trying to think when exploring the Engineers Connection HOW to Mold Different Mythos and Religions into ONE Truth, but this in itself was a difficult task.
"like to hear what others thought Paradise would/could have been."
So this reply would be a continuation to what i had put above and prior, we know the Engineer said to David that he was FROM a place we would refer to as Paradise.
This may have drawn some to conclude we would be going to some AFTER-LIFE and Heaven! I would have consider the other Aspects Loosely.
So when i refer to the Biblical Account, i look at it as being the Cradle of Civilization, certainly maybe was far as our Origins. So i would not be looking at it too Literally as in Context to Adam and Eve. But more to a Place where Humanoids had maybe been Created, but certainly would DWELL within a Walled City (Garden of Eden) were these Creations could be WATCHED over and Maintained by a Equivalent of Cherubim Angels (not talking Babies with Wings lol).
I had mentioned this concept years before we had Alien Covenant when looking at possibility to what PARADISE could be.... it appears what we got in Alien Covenant is not far off this.
Who knows how more Literal you could get, because loosely you could Ponder, so HAD we seen a prior Version of Humanoids get KICKED OUT of Paradise/Planet 4, and Ridley Scott had mentioned a lot about Paradise Lost and the Engineers being Fallen Angels... But with Alien Covenant the Paradise Lost Themes seem to point more about David.
We need to maybe NOT be going too literal but loosely would be ok...
So when looking at Paradise in other Contexts, then it commonly refers to a Place that ONLY the Righteous and Worthy are allowed to Dwell... In Mythology and Religion this refers to a After-Life for those who Died in Battle, or with Honor, those who Died who are Innocent/Pure and those who had Appeased their Gods.
But again i dont think we should look at it TOO Literally as far as a Spiritual Realm for the Dead... but thats just something i would be Cautious of Exploring.
But Certainly as far as the Occupants being a Race/Civilization that are considered Worthy, Righteous and Pure. In Context to the Hierarchy of the Engineers that is and their Agenda. In Context to Planet 4 maybe this is WHY those Engineers look like they stick to a Middle-Age kind of Culture.
If we take say Amish Communities they live a Basic Life and Shun Technology for the most part, and are Highly Religious and would consider most of the ways we LIVE as being Sinful and NOT as God intended. You could maybe see them as behaving WELL compared to some other Society of Mankind... If you was looking at it from the POV of GOD.
But again not going TOO Literal with GOD but looking at it from a Engineers Hierarchy POV, so we could look at Mankind Once Lived like those Planet 4 Engineers, until we had Civilizations that Rose and Started to Act in ways that defied what the Engineers had intended for us as far as our Behavior/Worship.
So i Pondered Paradise would be a World like the Cradle of Creation where the most Pure/Loyal and Righteous Beings would Dwell, and that these beings would Sacrifice some of themselves to Create Life. What Happens to those who become Sinful in the Eyes of the Hierarchy and their Intentions?
Would they be BANNED?
I think its interesting to Ponder what RS meant about the Engineers in regards to Fallen! And what he meant by you have ONE Guy who is Handsome goes to all the Parties and Gets all the Girls, and you have another GUY who is not as Handsome stays at Home being Boring?
A reference to Planet 4 Engineers (Stay at Home) and LV-223 (goes to all the Parties)?
If RS was looking at Paradise Lost maybe we also had to consider what was the FALL.... the Fallen Angels lead by Lucifer had refused to Worship their GOD/Creator as Superior and also refused to Worship Gods New Creation Mankind. These Angels were Tossed out of Heaven and Punished by God to become Serpents (Mutated) could this PLAY a role as far as the Difference between the Engineers?
RS had said the Planet 4 Engineers are the Originals, and he had talked about AI as in context to Replicants, so maybe those LV-223 Engineers were Engineered Creations and like the Replicants to those Planet 4 Engineers, maybe to replace them for Sacrifices to Seed Worlds?
Maybe they was then intended to be Punished by Something, and they saw this Punishment as a way to Birth Life (if we assume Prometheus Engineers could not procreate like earlier Replicants). They then saw this Punishment as something that they could Engineer (using Stolen Creation Tool) and this is maybe WHY those LV-223 Engineers had that Technology?
This is one of the ideas i had prior to Alien Covenant, but then looking at Alien Covenant those Engineers had Bio-Mechanical Technology to a degree... so maybe that dont add up.
So SORRY if this seems like its going off Topic.. i would have to think about what is PARADISE now...
But when working on ideas for a Prometheus 3 in 2013/2014 i had considered (one of my 2/3 ideas that are different variation) that David and Dr Shaw arrived at Paradise (or other Engineer World) a Place FAR FAR away from Earth. Where this Place was like a Cradle of Life were we would have had Engineers (not masses of them) we would have had Humans, and maybe a few other Humanoids that LIVE in Harmony and would be used as Sacrifices to Seed Worlds selected from this Genetic Stock.
I would have revealed some Conflict between Engineers (and their Creators), and what would happen is those beings would be quite welcoming to Dr Shaw until she starts to ASK Questions, which these Engineers then worried would Corrupt/Influence the other Humanoids on this World.
So their Motives to Dr Shaw turn bad, but then David Unleashes Hell on their Asses...
Thats kind of HOW i was pondering Paradise... which would not have had a Massive Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic but some... but then i also had pondered another WORLD that was very Bio-Mechanical, where these Machines if you would are revealed as the Creators of the Universe.
I just could not Merge all of these together in a way i felt would do it Justice so i abandoned it.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Regarding David i am not sure he could be infected by the Pathogen.... but that just my interpretation, the ONE thing that stood out to me about David was that he appeared to be like a Pinocchio Character in Prometheus, a Boy who is not a Boy.
In Alien Covenant it appeared that he had a Dislike for Inferior Mankind and the Engineers, but he saw Potential with the Engineers as far as what they had been doing and abandoned, which maybe is the Potential those Experiments had as far as Creating something PERFECT.
David seemed to understand the Superiority of Walter, only in Physical Form and realized the Limitations that Walter had due to his Lack of Free-Will. You get the Impression David wants to be a Creator and a Megalomaniac of Sorts.
Ridley Scotts comments about David and "what kind of a world" it would be that David Creates in a Movie that would not be about Xenomorphs and about AI and when he considers the Replicants as AI.. when i looked at this with the TRAILER SONG i feel is very Fitting to David in context to the Crossing. And his comment to Daniels.. "if we are kind it would be a kind world" this seems to indicate to me that David felt he was superior to Mankind, and he did-not like how Mankind Treated him or Each other, these are maybe reasons the Engineers wanted to Redact us too.
So (sorry for being long winded) i suspected that David would want to Give Mankind a 2nd Chance, but he would not do so for the Corrupt Colonist, but he would SAVE the Embryos but EVOLVE them as he saw Potential in what the Engineers could do, then David would then Control these beings with what ever Mythos, Rules and Religion he chooses.
This is a LITTLE Off-Topic to the Point i am trying to raise, which is that David maybe like a Pinocio would want to be a Real Boy but he sees Mankind as In-Superior... But if David could Create a more Perfect Humanoid that is kind of Immortal, then MAYBE we could see David would want to Transfer his SOUL into this Perfection?
How does this FIT regarding my opening statement regarding David and the Pathogen and your Plot Gavin?
What if the Engineers or whoever, can Offer (or have Technology) that could offer David a Chance to be a Real Boy so to speak, well offer him a Body that is Perfect, Organic to a Degree but MUCH more Superior to Mankind.
Then either as a Hubris or Tricked by the Engineers (or whoever) David has become a Bio-Mechanical Being and then he can become infected or used to EVOLVE the Xenomorph.
Having David tricked or connected to a Apparatus that EVOLVES him could work as a route to the Final Element to make the Xenomorph Bio-Mechanical it would Tick all the Boxes for the Themes of Prometheus.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Strictly speaking, there are hard constraints to meet in the sequel should it ever be beamed on screens at all - it has to conclude the sequels with a fitting end so that Alien can be seen as a continuation in some way. And this has to be done in less than 2 hours and 30 minutes. RS has a sweet spot for pacing; he likes his pictures to be about 2 hours long. While you proposed a number of options Gavin, you sidestepped these agonizingly painful constraints that put the plot into rather straight jacket.
Can I use that trick as well? Because, for one thing, it is rather pointless - the movie will still be different to anything we can surmise. Two - the numerous options you threw at the wall to see if something sticks will still not capture the multiplicity of expectations of movie aficionados( the overused word 'fan' sounds a bit demeaning to be honest, and has a bad sound to it, especially in this franchise. )
What I actually want to see is for David to resuscitate Shaw by using the technology that he might have - either in the human form or some other way using her DNA that he hopefully has preserved in some shape of tissue just in case. After all he has about 2000 humans as stock and a few embryos, surely some females have zygotes that he can snip and replace the genetic material from. Lets say he can put Shaw's memories into that body using the neuro-link that he used to read off the dreams while on the Prometheus. All this is because he has a soft spot for her. And this would make the movie a bit more dramatic I guess.
He will also have to alter humans as well - evolve them, because as is they have to many vices he can't possibly tolerate. He also has his other children. What he does to them is not clear and not that important for me.
Their destination can be either LV-223 or Origae 6. Perhaps he would like to go to LV-223 to grow Shaw and to make sure the danger emanating from the Earth is placated(humans get converted into eggs with the goal of wiping the blue planet) or he goes on his way to grow a civilization of his own on Origae 6 but still goes for LV-223 to have access to the tech(goo) on the planet.
At some point a conflict is inevitable - just for fun engineers should turn up and David gets caught in their backyard. Perhaps human mission gets involved as well - a mission WY sent to find out what happened to their man - Peter W. They knew where Prometheus was going - they don't know if he is alive or not, so I suppose at somepoint they will want to know what happened to him.
As for the identity of who the fellow in the chair - I don't care in the slightest. For, it is a scarecrow figure, the enigma, a product of imagination which was there to capture initial interest in a movie released in 1979 - there is nothing more to it, for me anyways. Whoever/whatever it is, it is utterly meaningless(David, Shaw an engineer, one of his evolved children). This is roughly what I want to see - emotions. Emotions of Shaw recollecting that she is not the person she was supposed to be. David realizing that there are limits to technology and that there is perhaps an abstract thing called human soul which he, a perfect being, with all his perfection couldn't capture, save and replicate. With ambiguity used in the right places this can still be played out nicely so that many people will leave happy, unexpectedly :)
Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?
The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...
If I were to propose a sequel to Covenant, I would propose the same story as in one of my posts from last October:
"David as the creator of the xenomorph bothers me a little, too. To fix that, in a sequel to Covenant, I would wake up Walter and have him explore the dead city of the engineers and beyond, until he would find a pyramid whose interior would be heavily decorated with murals describing a xenomorph life-cycle, a race that inhabited the planet long before it was chosen to become a home world for a new civilization, that of the engineers There would be no eggs in the pyramid because they were loaded in the hold of a strange looking ship and sent away for safety reason (that would be described in a more recent mural added by the engineers), a Juggernaut that was never seen again. The ancient murals of the xenomorph race would also depict their creation story, where a biomechanical bird-like god gave birth to the first xenomorph by ingesting some black goo from a kind of vial that remembered Walter of the vials seen in David’s lab. Some of the recently added murals would show a deadly battle between engineers and the bird-like creatures whom were defeated and the engineers then sacked their world and carried off huge quantities of plunder among which certain ampoules. Another mural, or fresco, likely the most recent of them, showed the arrival of a discoidal ship and an engineer drinking from a cup, next to a waterfall.
But if Walter was torn to pieces and unable to walk again, I would let David tell the story to a mutated but beautiful creature, like the one depicted in Giger's mural above, slightly resembling Daniels. She opens her eyes slowly, with no memories, awake from a strange dream and feeling alive, chosen, unique. She sees David smiling besides her, waiting patiently for her first words. She speaks softly: "Am I...?" "Perfect?" (David ending the sentence for her)."
"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"
Before I start this post I will say that I put things in Italics to emphasize a point, it is not there to tell people that they are stupid or like "maybe you will not understand it if I don't do like this".
"David discovered the Engineers had abandoned their work in developing the perfect organism; the Xenomorph and upon realizing he could complete their work using Shaw he turned against Shaw and the Engineers, as seen in Alien: Covenant."
Gavin: If that is the case, then wouldn't that mean that David still would be the creator of it? If so that would still be very lame. The idea before seems to be too much about David so I am not sure if that would be very good but maybe I am just misreading it. Maybe David made something and then the Engineers made it their own. As long as David is not the final creator of the monster it is alright with me. They should still have to make him less evil than he was in Covenant because I prefer when they have him as more morally ambiguous, it is more interesting that way.
"- As I stated this is what I have thus far. It would need another/parallel narrative with human characters, possibly Weyland-Yutani exploring LV-223."
That seems interesting since at least the human journey was put aside in Alien covenant.
A Blomkamp movie would be alright if it would not have Ripley in it and not remove Alien 3 out of the official time-line. Maybe we could have a movie that would be a spin-off like where they go on more about The Engineers or the Weyland company, or the Yutani side of it.
Having a Scott movie could work if it would be less about David and more about the Engineers and their connection to the SJ and the monster. Like I have said before we need human characters to sympathize with and that work or else it will fail, again. Making David the creator of the Xenos is trash so they got to get rid of that.
What ever they might choose I want it to focus on the human journey with well-made human characters. I am really tired of the android thing but then if there is anyone that finds that interesting then good for them.
Please try to remember that the four paragraph "outline" is exactly that, and by no means am I suggesting that this should be the entirety of the movie, these are merely some ideas centered around David that I pondered and shared nothing more. If was to post an outline for a movie it would be much more expansive, separated into acts, with multiple narratives etc. As Biodegradable put I am spitballing ideas, ideas I would like to see in a sequel to Alien: Covenant that revisits the sequel to Prometheus we never got; Paradise.
The point of this thread is not to shoot down the likelihood of such a movie ever getting made, as such chances are virtually none. The point of this thread is to share our ideas of what we hoped Paradise would have been, and could be if Paradise was revisited as the sequel to Alien: Covenant.
As for comments on pleasing all of the fans, and comments of tying everything together, I will say this - some questions can be answered, whereas some should never be answered, and then there are questions that could be answered in a variety of ways. While exploring some questions, not exploring others and asking new questions it is possible to link the movies more cohesively together and address some of the more antagonizing inconsistencies. And this can be done in such a way that appeases, rather then pleases the majority of the fandom. Many of our debates and discussions have given us a glimpse of this, through the comparison and evidence showcasing of our many theories and postulations.
@daliens and BioDegradable,
Loving the idea of a biomechanical queen, and the much needed emotional aspects you both mention. Having Walter return is also another and opens up the possibility of another narrative that could be used to further explore and expand the mythology of the Engineers.
As for Shaw and Daniels, I suspect a poll for either's return would lean in Noomi Rapace's favor. Although having here being recreated by David though not impossible may be a stretch to explain to general audiences.
One possibility could be that the corpse of Shaw we saw in Covenant may have been a mock-up and that maybe Walter finds Shaw alive, yet transformed into the aforementioned biomechanical queen on Planet 4, possibly revealing to Walter that she was complicit in Davids plans, further putting into question the reliability of David.
Another possibility could be that David does indeed discover an ancient biomechanical city once inhabited by the Space Jockeys and/or Xenomorphs, therefore uncovering that his recreation is in comparison a failure, echoing the corruption within him, that may be from infection, or possibly because he is inherently flawed, having been made by flawed hands.
You underline a point that echoes my belief that there can be narrative taken forward that appeases the majority of the fandom, as one common objection seems to regard David creating the Xenomorph. In this case, we need an alternative that keeps the Xenomorphs alien origins intact but also caters towards David's belief he created the perfect organism. One such possibility, as alluded to in the novelization of Alien: Covenant is that the Xenomorph already existed. This could be the Xenomorph we know and love, of which David has yet to encounter, and of which predates David's hybridized creation.
Another point echoed is that the story needs a human element and one that we the audience can relate to and associate with. This could give us a third narrative with a Weyland-Yutani exploring whatever remains on LV-223, with said humans encountered a matured Deacon, and uncovering some of the secrets of the Engineers and their facilities on the moon, while possibly foreshadowing the cloak and dagger mission of the Nostromo.
"The point of this thread is to share our ideas of what we hoped Paradise would have been, and could be if Paradise was revisited as the sequel to Alien: Covenant."
Alright, it would have been nice to see more about the Engineers. I would rather have it about the Engineers than what we have now. Before Alien Covenant I thought that it would have been interesting to see something more about the Engineer society how it was structured. For example how religion played a role in that, how they had their military, did they trade, and so on. The Engineers are interesting I am not sure of they make sense as the SJ scale-wise but they sure have their place in the franchise.
I do not think that we need everything to be answered. Some mystery is one of the things that is interesting about this. I would also like to say this, if they answer things then they should also put other things for us to think about. After Alien we thought about who the SJ might be, after Alien 3 I thought that what if Ripley would not have killed herself. Aliens to me is more of an action-movie although very well done it is like what you see is what you get.
"Another possibility could be that David does indeed discover an ancient biomechanical city once inhabited by the Space Jockeys and/or Xenomorphs, therefore uncovering that his recreation is in comparison a failure, echoing the corruption within him, that may be from infection, or possibly because he is inherently flawed, having been made by flawed hands."
I think that makes sense, he acts like he is a God ("they don't deserve a second chance, bla bla bla"). What if his thoughts gets questioned when he sees that his version of the monster is just a copy? Would he start to break down? This seems more human-ish and not much like an android but anyways, it is interesting since it has written him in that way.
I could buy that the Xenos already were there when David made his version, why not? Having something more about WY could be interesting and bring us more of the human element.
Title of the prequel of the prequel 'alien covenant':
Icarus: garden of hell
A new space expedition sets its course to planet Four, with the purpose of discover what happened to Peter weyland. A Deacon is waiting to make new friends. Shaw and David have made a big mistake, confusing home with paradise. A 'lapsus linguae' in the translation hability of David. 'When one note is off, it eventually destroys the whole symphony, David.'. the space ship Icarus leaves planet Four, Next stop: paradise. The Deacon is hiding in the ship. This Monster has the hability to make new monsters and he is highly contagious, the perfect host to the pathogen.
The reckoning of paradise is coming.
Alien 5, sequel of alien resurrection:
What if Helen Ripley came back as...an Android? Using the same technology of the movie 'avengers: endgame', they could make a Young Helen Ripley, and evil.
The company has a laboratory in... lv-426, conducing experiments on humans, using the knowledge about the xenomorph, to enhance bodies of men and women. A total Freakshow. When an accident occurs, Ripley is badly damaged. Xeno Acid has spilled Over its head and some...security protocols were erased. A Killer is born.
I dont want this to be taken the wrong way, but when you made a Valid Point to some of the ideas in regards to we have to bare in mind Constraints of a 2-2.5 Hour Movie and having to Conclude the Prequels in a SINGLE Movie. You are very right to point out it puts any Plot into a Straight Jacket.
But while the alternative you offered may have some interesting elements, i think again such a PLOT would also be HARD to pull off in a 2.5 Hour Movie, not without Sacrificing a Lot of Character Development. Look at Alien Covenant as a Synopsis its Plot was not that Deep/Complex.
Thats No Disrespect to your idea, or others on here but its sticking to the VALID point you made... IF we are do have ONE Movie that has to Conclude the Prequels then this is a Mammoth Task, a lot of stuff has to be Thrown Under the Bus like the Engineers and Dr Shaw were in Alien Covenant.
Because any Concluding Movie would be expected to show/conclude on of the Following.
1) HOW/WHEN/WHY do David's Xenomorphs get onto LV-426 on the Derelict and look a LITTLE Different.
2) EXPLAIN/SHOW that David's Xenomorphs Do-Not get onto LV-426/Derelict (But then some Fans will also want to know HOW those Eggs got there IF they are not Davids).
We are about 17.5 Years from ALIEN and by the Time the Covenant Ship goes to Origae-6 we have about a 10 year Window until the Nostromo Crew Arrive at LV-426 and Discover the Derelict/Pilot/Cargo that appear to have been there a VERY Long Time.
If David goes to LV-223/426 i can only estimate that we would be left 17 years (+ Few Months maybe).
We would need to see David's Xenomorph Evolve into what we see in ALIEN and be shown in their Thousands (Eggs) on a Engineer Ship leaving room to cover how surely the Eggs/Derelict had been there for only a matter of Weeks/Months.
Or we would have to have a Movie that Provides some Conclusive Evidence that the LV-426 Derelict and Cargo had been there for a LONG Time and Davids Xenomorph's are NOT the same as in ALIEN/ALIENS.. But fans would also want to KNOW about those LV-426 Eggs.
These TWO routes have to be the END GAME, and to cover those will take up a Portion of a SINGLE Movie, that would LIMIT what the rest could show...
It would be expected to have Eggs and Xenomorphs and some Fans would expect to see the more Classic Xenomorph make a Appearance regardless of which of those TWO routes they would take.
You would also have to have Human Characters for the Audience to Gauge with, which could be NEW incoming Humans or Survivors of the Covenant.
These Points would have to be the MUST include for any Conclusion Movie.... This leaves LESS Time to Introduce/Re-Introduce other Plots.
The way around this would be either.
A) A 3 Hour Movie, but would the Studio do that, because its getting Fans (casual) to come and SIT through 3 Hours of a ALIEN Movie, and then you would still have some Time Restraints.. And a Plot that Distracts from the TWO Routes etc explained earlier would maybe not get Fans Interested, for example you have to be Careful what the First 60% of a 3 Hour Movie has so that it can engage Fans to stay and Watch it up to this point, before the CLIMAX of either showing HOW Davids Eggs get on LV-426 or HOW they are NOT the Eggs on LV-426 is shown.
B) A TWO Part Movie or TWO Movies that will take us to the CLIMAX/CONCLUSIONS. This again would come down to as i mentioned in (A) regarding the First 60% but with TWO movies you have a Total of 4-5 Hours to play around with and so instead of the Restraints of say 90-110 Minutes to COVER other things instead of/setting up the Conclusion, you have say a Majority of the First Movie to the Whole First Movie and First Act of the 2nd to Cover these other Elements.
The Problem here is that IF the First of these TWO Concluding Movies DOES-NOT Draw in Fans or Please them, then it could leave the CONCLUSION pretty much DEAD in the Water.
Who ever attempts to give us a Conclusion is going to have a VERY DIFFICULT Task and they would have more Ease, maybe being UK Government in the BREXIT Crisis LOL ;)
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think however there are some interesting ideas...
Some Fans did feel it was in-just to have taken Dr Shaw out, as she could have had a interesting role to play. What does she Discover and would it Support her FAITH or Prove again that she was WRONG?
She HAD Nothing... No Parents, No Partner, all she wanted NOW was here Answers to WHY we was created, and WHY they decided to Destroy us, she CANT see why her GOD would want to Destroy us and she does-not accept the Engineers are our GODs and so WHO Created them?
These are some Questions that some Prometheus Fans would have wanted to see answered, and what IMPACT the Answers could have on HER.... so it was Wasted for how she was KILLED off in Alien Covenant.
Here is a important FACT that may have influenced her choice.... we know that she cant have CHILDREN... and IF she could then maybe she would have wanted to Go Home!
Bare this in mind because it connects to a interesting PLOT you Proposed!
Resurrect Dr Shaw! for some this may seem a Dumb idea for some they never liked her Character, but that could have been changed. There are a FEW problems to consider with this IDEA.
1) How does David do this, he would need the TOOLS and Technology to do so, and her DNA. (But maybe the Engineers had the Tools, or/and maybe the Covenant does, because of the Embryos and how they would Incubate).
So the Black Goo (could be used with her DNA to then Imprint her DNA into a Embryo or Zygote). But we have to ask would this Create a Exact Clone? (Dane Hallett had suggested as far as some of those Dr Shaw Concepts that maybe David could Resurrect Dr Shaw over and over, or Clone her or they are just his Cruel Imaginations of what he wanted to do).
2) Assuming that David manages to CLONE her, then its HOW does she gain her SOUL? You Suggested the Dream Visor but then this would be so Convenient that David has obtained this from the Wreckage of the Prometheus or by it was on the Life-Boat but then it was just as Convenient that they Salvaged a lot as shown in the Crossing Viral and Alien Covenant.
Dr Shaw's Dreams and Memories could have been STORED in David's AI Memory but then its HOW would they be Transferred back to Dr Shaw? This is where the Dream Visor could become a Plot Convenience! Unless there was another way for David to UPLOAD her Soul to a New Body!
I have taken time to address that PLOT because its something similar i had Pondered for My Prometheus 2 (not regarding Dr Shaw though) and then Pondered similar with Dr Shaw for my Alien Covenant 2/3 Ideas (although the Body is not hers).
Dr Shaw believes in the AFTER-LIFE, and Weyland had maybe turned to this, or indeed Dr Shaws Findings in order to meet his maker to be granted More/Eternal Life
Is there such a THING?
Maybe a Trickery Subject to tackle, maybe ONE that should be avoided or given a TWIST!
So INDEED if we had a Dr Shaw Resurrected with SOME of her Memories Transferred over... when she AWAKENS would she wonder where she is? Would she KNOWN she Died?
This depends if these Latter Memories would have been Transferred. A Dr Shaw Awakening would FIT with the Alien: Awakening Title.
My Alien Covenant Sequels (ideas) where to introduce a Female Synthetic Construct which in one variation of the idea, i had it that David would Transfer Dr Shaws Memories to IT.
So this could WORK as a Plot....
David would Surely NOT want all her Memories Transferred over because she would be AWARE of the Horrors he had committed. We have to Consider HOW likely would it be that David could Create a Exact CLONE!
So here are a Few Alternatives.
1) The Body is a Creation of Davids, a Evolved/Advanced Humanoid he Engineers.
2) The Body is a Human Colonist.
In either Case... Dr Shaw would see herself as herself, and maybe David would see her as Dr Shaw too.. This means they can CAST Noomi Rapace. again.
But we have to have a TWIST! at some point Dr Shaw looks into a Mirror and what she sees is NOT herself, this would Confuse Her... Worry Her.. David would then have to confide in her that SHE had died and in EFFECT what David has Granted her is Resurrection which her FAITH Teaches her.
Dr Shaw could REJECT this... she would say that David had Cheated her from her FATE... David could then tell her what he knew about the Engineers and that there is NO after-life as per her FAITH or GOD... but that HE had managed to Achieve this for her. (this would make him appear he has become a GOD).
She would rather be Dead.... this is when David reveals to her that while the BODY is not hers, the SOUL is and this Body can Bare Children! This could certainly Change her Mind!
But at some point we would need a REVEAL. does Dr Shaw encounter Daniels who reveals what Horrors David has committed, or does the Revelation of seeing herself in the Mirror and knowing she is just a Memory Passed on by David allow her to unlock some Dark Secrets/Memories of David?
Another TWIST on this would be WHAT if it was Daniels Body that was used! After she sees her reflection, we get the prior Plot as above, but at some point this Triggers some of Daniels Memories... these Gradually Resurface and then she discovers the Horrific Truth about what David had done...
This kind of Plot would allow for Noomi Rapace to play a Role and Katherine Waterston and as Dr Shaw's Soul Fades, we could have Daniels Carry her Crucifix and get a Deep Connection to Dr Shaw her Loss/Gain.
Why Daniels could even Give Birth to a Girl and name her in Dr Shaws Name... Elisabeth.
But such a PLOT while Imaginative, would it be something that would appeal to the ALIEN/ALIENS Fanbase, and it appeared FOX felt such things would not interest them and that Xenomorphs would and HENCE we got Alien Covenant.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think this is a good thread, as we all can (hopefully) learn something about our preferences.
BrEXIT has stakeholders galvanized around two diametrically opposed options. Meanwhile, Alien aficionados, even the sample we get here, are struggling to put up something constructive. That is, it looks like nobody knows what precisely it should look like, but everybody has some some aspects they definitely don't want to see. The mode is discriminatory rather than constructive. As if there are many options on the table to discriminate one against the other. This all looks like a design by a committee and as expected, nothing good will come from this, because no single solution will make everybody happy. But fear not - the movie is down to few key people. They will decide, not "fans". Fans only get to complain.
And I don't protest in this case, because, in my reckoning, Ridley has done fantastic job with Prometheus. He lost the momentum a bit with AC, but he still can make amends and finish on a high. I would also like to remind what Ridley said once - the movie critics don't matter to him. He is ahead of the curve. I also like what Mark Kermode, who is a proper movie critic, pointed out - fans don't matter. So I hope Ridley sticks to his guns and finishes his ideas as he wanted. I hope he isn't swayed by fans through executives.
I am a bit sorry for precipitating on your parade Gavin by being rather pessimistic in tone, but I expect it to be validated if at the end of the thread you just tally out how many viable options would've been put on here, and how many of them, if any, satisfies everybody's wishes.
I actually enjoyed the journey of David. I think it is important, as it is the core of the story of P, which is about technology. His character is in his teen years. He was born frisky and inquisitive and powerful. He gained some experience. In Covenant he matured somewhat - he experienced losses (Shaw, Peter). Now I want him to reflect a bit, for him to lose his childish friskiness and agility and become pensive. I would like to see him depressed. And perhaps a bit more reconciliatory. Perhaps he should fail a bit more. He should suffer a bit and actually recall and appreciate the observation made by his "brother", Walter, that he is not infallible and therefore not perfect - that he is not a "god" in its ultimate superlative meaning. In other words he needs to learn humility.
Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?
The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...
I mean forget the technicalities somewhat wrt to how Shaw can be in fact re-animated - it is a scifi after all.
The intriguing question is this then: when she gets her consciousness back, with all her memories, she gets on the one hand that her body is grown artificially and mind is put together by this funny guy David, yet her memory has it that she was created by some divine spirit (related to a cross and Jesus and all that), and that she has a soul and this David has none. Reconcile that. She won't get over that.
Now, imagine that meanwhile David found a way to engineer a body for himself which is opposite sex to body of Shaw, and he transfers his mind into that medium so that he and Shaw can be together. But, because I want David to suffer a bit, Shaw will be a bit tormented by her past, her memories and the reality. She takes her life. And David also should consider doing that. The alieny plot can be developed around this story so that fans don't commit suicide.
ps: oh, I see you, BigDave you got the memo and caught the idea and elaborated it.(now that I read your post and that you have been pondering about it rather long ago, it is me who caught up) Guess what, that will never happen - this won't make it as it has no chance to meet the constraints. But it would make a nice drama in space.
Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?
The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...
If i can be HONEST about something....
I feel the ideas i proposed here and on other threads, some some of the things RS had hinted to are LIKELY going to be a Distraction from what a Majority of Fans see as ALIEN about the Franchise.
1) Unknown ALIEN Organism that was being Carried in a Storage Hold.
2) A Unknown ALIEN Ship and its Pilot who had been carrying this Cargo (or loading/unloaded it)
3) A similar/shared ALIEN Aesthetic to the Ship and Organism.
4) Inferred Plot that the XENOMORPH was a Bio-Weapon, or could be USED as such.
Prometheus attempted to make a Connection, but Scale and Aesthetically it had differences, it did Indicate the Xenomorph was connected to Experiments that were ambiguously indicated to be used as Weapons... or to Create Something NEW.
But it did-not give answers, it had some inconsistencies, and it lacked a Xenomorph or Related Encounters... ALIEN ENGINEERS had more of the Aesthetics and Scale, it had more Alien Encounters.
Prometheus had TONED these down, maybe a Mistake a bit in Hindsight.... Alien Covenant gave us the Xenomorph (Plot Twist that was NOT Fan pleasing) but further TONED down that ALIEN Aesthetic
I would say MOST Fans would want to get back to the Aesthetic and a Movie that is more Reminiscent of ALIEN ENGINEERS
The only place we have seen that has this is LV-223 (or LV-426 if we ignore the David Creates Plot)
I think a lot of Fans are not so interesting in a David Plot, or going deep into Philosophy
PLANET 4 lacked this Aesthetic apart from the ONE Docking Bay. This makes sense if we look at Planet 4 as Paradise in Context to Creation... In the Biblical Sense we have to remember Paradise is NOT Heaven.
So this could be were our Origins Stem from... The Engineer came from Paradise, this is how David Interpreted what he had said to him... Paradise as in a Place that only the Engineers are Worthy of Dwelling, those that Stick to a Strict Way of Life/Rituals.
LV-223 was set up for some Purpose where this similar Bio-Mechanical Technology was used/housed. Do we assume this place had been there for 35'000 years as a Place to Purely Create Bio-Weapons that our Engineers would leave Clues to when they Visited us over Thousands of Years, purely to then UNLEASH this on us just because we had UPSET them?
I think Fans Forget that RS had intended to STEER AWAY from ALIEN and Xenomorphs... and the Bio-Weapon was just ONE Element of a Larger Franchise... But this HAD-NOT pleased Fans... who expect it to REVOLVE around the Xenomorph.
In Hindsight all this Gods stuff was a Distraction for the Franchise, as far as those who would not ACCEPT that Prometheus would have opened up something Different.
In Hindsight Prometheus should have catered for those Fans by giving more Clues and Xenomorphs like ALIEN ENGINEERS and allowing that Prequel to Close the DOOR to Alien and had Freedom for a Sequel to NOT be Shackled to the Xenomorph.
But whats done is done! We are in Direct Prequel Route where the END GAME as to be to explain the Xenomorph on LV-426. I think most would want/not want.
*Movie about David and what he wants to Create
*More HR Giger Aesthetic
*Xenomorph/Derelict Orgins Explained (not by David)
*Gods and Philosophical Stuff
*Xenomorph or similar Rampage!
For this the Logical Conclusion would be to GO BACK to LV-223
The Engineers Bio-Mechanical Technology came from somewhere, WHY is it we only see this on LV-223 and only in the HANGER on Planet 4?
If Planet 4 is similar to the Garden of Eden this would make sense....
We would then have to ASK why do they keep most that Technology on LV-223 and where it came from and where else can we see this.
And so we can open up the Possibility or other Worlds that have a more Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic. We could open up a Hierarchy of Creation.
If those Engineers are FALLEN Angels, then these beings were ONCE more Loyal Angels... which are NOT the Top of the Biblical Creation Hierarchy. The Angels could be compared to the Igigi under the Annunaki Hierarchy in the Sumerian Mythos.
other Mythos have Layers of Deities. Including the Greek Titans and Olympians.
So there is the Potential to Explore another Layer of Cake, that would give us the Bio-Mechanical Element.
If such a PLOT can reveal those LV-426 Eggs are NOT a creation of Davids... We can CLOSE the Door to ALIEN.
We can then go in a few Directions...
1) Explore more of the Engineers and were else they are/have been. What else have they Created (not talking Monstrous Beasts well not limited to)
2) Explore the Creators of the Engineers were else they are/have been. What else have they Created (not talking Monstrous Beasts well not limited to)
3) Wonder what David is up to now we know his Xenomorphs are NOT on LV-426 and what kind of a World would he Create?
These options could be explored in NOVEL Format that would allow for more depth, than such PLOTS can be done within the Confines of a Movie.
Allowing the ALIEN Franchise (Xenomorphs) to be kept to Movies.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Regarding your LAST two posts..
Totally Agree with everything you had put, i cant recall, but maybe it was you a while back who proposed that David's Love for Dr Shaw would make him Give Up his Immortality to gain a more Mortal Body to be with her, to have the intention of Starting a Family with her (or along those lines) i can understand this concept.. it could prove a MAJOR Hubris for David, or by that could even see some Redemption for him.
Prometheus and its Themes had opened up a WHOLE REALM of Possible ways to explore all different Elements... something which Alien Covenant had kind of just put the LID on, in a Spoon Fed Attempt to connect to ALIEN.
So indeed ideas like mine, yours and others would unlikely make it, even Ridley Scotts which may share some similarities are unlikely to make it.
A Alien Engineers meets Aliens Return to LV-223 maybe the kind of Movie under Disney we would likely to see.
But i hope the Expanded Universe that Prometheus unlocked could be explored by NOVELS... but seems they just seem interested in CHURNING out Xenomorph Novels.
Sadly maybe Prometheus has suffered the same Fate as Dr Shaw and those Planet 4 Engineers... R.I.P
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
LV223 seemed abandoned by Engineers for many years before Prometheus arrived, possibly immediately after the outbreak.
Was the outbreak a lesson learnt by the Engineers, the turning point that made them renounce their wolf (whatever that meant, black goo or xenomorphs)?
"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"
I think it was intensely debated in the past and if anyone reached a conclusion, can you please explain the meaning of the scorpion vessel from Alien Covenant?
Was it for defense, for surveillance of the Engineers on planet 4, was it to prevent the other Juggernauts from the undergound hangar to leave the planet? Did it belong to the civilization from planet 4 or to some higher civilization?
Why was it hovering above the plaza?
We all have seen the Juggernauts are able to dock without assistance and I don't see how the scorpion ship could have assisted.
Sorry to go off topic, but since we debate the future ideas, that vessel could be the missing link.
I didn't wanna do this but...
I fully understand that within a community such as our own that there will be a mixture of personalities, perspectives, and beliefs, and that it is inevitable some of these may contrast, even conflict with one another. I've been here nearly 7 years (has it really been that long, shit), with most of that time being in an admin capacity (I ain't flexing no keyboard muscles here, just saying), and I was a regular over at the Epic Games forums for many years prior. In addition to the responsibilities and privileges my role bestows upon me here I am, as are we all, a fan at heart, and as such love to get into discussions and debates about my favorite franchises, such as Alien. However, within such exchanges of ideas, theories and speculation one rule should remain no matter whether it be on any of Scified's forums or any others (although many other forums regularly ignore this rule), and that rule is paramount - always discuss/debate the topic, never the individual. In other words, keep it clean and on topic, never get personal and never get emotional. The breaching of this rule can take many forms, some more obvious than others (such as being threatened or bullied or ridiculed, for example), with the less obvious being needlessly negative, presumptuous or judgmental towards another individual. The TLDR version of this is - don't be a dick, it sours the experience for many, and for some, it is the only means of socializing so let's keep it, at the very least, hospitable.
Now back to the topic in hand...
I had hoped the "spitballing" of ideas for a Paradise sequel to Alien: Covenant would be more unrestrained and creative, but it seems some believe that we must temper our expectations and creativity around the real-world logistics of such a production ever being greenlit. While I agree that we must, as in life, remain rooted, no creative or artistic vision is beyond the realms of possibility. Had Arthur C. Clarke and Stanley Kubrick tempered their expectations this way then 2001: A Space Odyssey would have never even made it to preproduction. As such, let us not be tied down by such restraints and instead dare to dream. This may be a fruitless exercise, but so too is the participating in a forum, which by that logic means we shouldn't even bother at all.
The biomechanical queen idea returns...
Noomi Rapace is a terrific actress with a tremendous range. A case in point would be to compare her seven roles in What Happened to Monday against Michael Fassbender's two roles in Alien: Covenant or even Assassin's Creed. Sadly she is not a character 'actor' like Tom Hardy, Gary Oldman, Brad Pitt, etc. I bring this up because if Noomi was to reprise her role of Shaw, especially after how the character was monumentally mishandled, then her role would have to be of interest enough to the actress. Additionally, I think said role should also play towards her strengths, one of which is portraying a wide range of emotions. To that end, I think that a resurrected Shaw, within a biomechanical shell, should face her existence on an emotional level, either through learning the horrors inflicted upon her by David (in both Prometheus and Alien: Covenant), or upon learning/realizing that her beliefs are mere delusions and that her existence is inconsequential.
While I do agree that the final movie in a trilogy has to be conclusive in nature, it does not need to answer every question to fulfill that purpose.
For the Alien prequel's the only arc that absolutely needs to be concluded is David's narrative, and even then his narrative does not need to end definitively.
As for the origin of the eggs on LV-426, their origin matters not, only that as preference would seem to dictate, they should remain mysterious in nature, and as such should not be related to whatever David thinks he has created. The simplest answer would be to somehow reveal the eggs have been on LV-426 for more than 35,000 years, and that Davids re-creation is either inferior or derivative. While serving the narrative of the franchise this could also serve towards a conclusion for David's character arc, whereby he must inevitably face the repercussions of his actions either internally or through some other agent, possibly at the hands of the Engineers, or maybe even Shaw herself - hell hath no fury, remember.
As for Daniels, I feel Katherine Waterson's range is in comparison rather limited (no offense), especially when compared to Noomi. Additionally, I doubt many would even notice, nor care if Daniels was excluded from a sequel. And I doubt the actress would want to take second billing to Noomi in a, quite frankly, cameo role.
Ah, the scorpion "mothership". One of the few biomechanical elements with Alien: Covenant, an aesthetic the prequels should have been relishing in and exploring, as BigDave mentioned.
I still prefer and believe that the Space Jockey and Engineers are separate entities. However, I believe that the Space Jockey does not need to be explored in the prequels, only referenced, inferred. However, the Engineers were introduced in Prometheus and as such need to further explored and/or expanded upon.
I think that clarifying the Engineers role and relationship in regards to mankind and/or the Xenomorph is an absolute must. It will not only compliment the biomechanical aesthetic of the biomechanical city I proposed in the OP but would also help tie the prequels into Alien. Again, not everything needs to be spoon-fed, with inference and ambiguity being powerful tools that can be used to help connect the prequels into the bigger franchise while also be used to hint at another, parallel narrative, as per Prometheus' intention.
David's understanding of Engineer language could be used here to relate this to the audience, with the discoveries he uncovers fulfilling the necessary roles in the narrative I just mentioned.
Personally, I still believe that the Engineers are primitive human slaves, used by some higher power (Space Jockeys maybe) to carry out the work that the dead pilot on LV-426 failed. Maybe the scorpion "mothership" and its position floating above the Engineer city is a godlike reminder/instrument of the said higher power. Or exploring other possibilities, possibly a remnant of the Engineers' biomechanical past that they once used but have since renounced (explaining their look, technology and their abandonment of the "wolf").
Yet, I notice that despite the calls for a human element, most postulations seem to be regarding either David or Shaw. In what form should the human element take?
@Gavin Sorry if I was a d!*k but the fact is whatever we talk here is pretty much irrelevant. People in droves are cheering on Youtube for grandma Sigourney's reenactment of the Newt introduction scene from Aliens, while on these forum are merely 58 users online when I write. Many people disappeared after Covenant, especially does who liked so much. There is more money to be made in a nostalgia fest (even if Covenant was full of nostalgia).
And you know it is also pretty useless to expect something with substance from Scott and Logan, with the first being foremost a business man , easily bending to corporate demands, and the other said that Sci-fi is a minor genre. On the other hand, Kubrick was one of the most intelligent and well read directors ever working who staid as far away from Hollywood and his only commercial film was Spartacus. So I can't even imagine that the latter 2 would compromise with the studios, and yet the first 2 have done it countless times. Sure they could try bringing new blood to continue the story, but Disney would interfere with their nostalgia [email protected].
As for Noomi, I would buy a ticket for ever movie which comes to the cinema. But killing off Daniels is a also a bad idea as we don't know how many of the normies/fans liked her and could result in further complaints.
PS. Studios are also responsible for the lack of the Giger touch, since they are screwing him and his estate over since Alien 3.
I think we could safely speculate that LV-223 was likely Abandoned after the Outbreak, You have to Wonder what Safe-Guards are in Place to deal with such a Outbreak as Janek had said he had to PULL THE PLUG on a Scientific Outpost on Earth. So we could wonder COULD the Engineers have found a way to Quarantine or Destroy that Complex. Leaving the others still in USE? Do we Assume the other Complexes had also suffered from a Outbreak? Do we Assume they were so concerned with the Outbreak that was Out of Control that there was the Potential for it to spread to the OTHER Outposts so they abandoned them?
Or had they decided after the ONE Outpost Outbreak they would Abandon the Entire Facilities? Another Consideration would be was the Outpost Targeted by another Contingent who wanted to Put a Stop to what was going on in those Places, and after doing this they had abandoned the place instead of Destroying it? These are all Questions we dont really have any answers for.
Regarding the Scorpionaught (Scorpion Ship) it was confirmed by Wayne Haagg that it was some kind of Border Control, we dont know if it was Automated or Manned. The Concept works seemed to show it had come from the Hanger at the Point that the Juggernaught had entered the Atmosphere but the Movie seems to indicate that the Scorpionaught had not come from the Hanger or would even FIT inside.
It was proclaimed to be some kind of Protective Measure but had some kind of DUST UP (Fight) with the Juggernaught and had Crashed as a Result. We have to wonder what kind of Safe-Guard this was at it appeared to be Helpless against the Juggernaught and Unleashing its Cargo, you would assume such a Safe-Guard would be able to Disable the Juggernauts?
We could look at the Ship having some Protective Measures and Border Control, we could speculate that ONCE the Ship was Destroyed/Crashed that it Disabled the ability for other Ships to Leave, (the Deleted Scene and Concept showed there was other Juggernauts in the Hanger).
"Did it belong to the civilization from planet 4 or to some higher civilization?"
Who knows... it appears the Purpose of this Craft was to Monitor and Manage incoming/leaving Juggernauts and those appeared to be the ONLY kind of Bio-Mechanical Technology on Planet 4.
The Craft maybe could also Monitor the Planet and its as if it was WATCHING over that City, which i think we can assume is the only Engineer City on this World.
Maybe when we look at Paradise (Biblical Account) in this Context we can make some Sense of it, Paradise was the Place where the Garden of Eden was located, it was a Place that the Cradle of Human Creation. It was NOT a place were GOD (Gods) came from, its was NOT were we go in the After-Life, it was a place that Cherubim (Angels) would WATCH over from the Skies to keep a EYE on Gods Creations, and act as a Border Control/Security?
We dont have to be too Literal Here, but if we look at it like that then it could Kind of Match.
Things to Consider....
*The Engineers had little Concern for the Ship, they are aware of these ships, yet Welcome them, maybe we could assume they are Military being Welcomed Home, and they have NO Fear of the Weapon, because they are so NAIVE to think there is NO possibility of any of their own kind TURNING the Weapon upon their OWN KIND?
Or indeed there is NO way any of their Creations would ever be able to get to any Outposts these Ships/Bio-Weapons are located, because their Creations are only TAUGHT limited knowledge and kept even Less Advanced than the Planet 4 City Looked, they maybe would attempt to Destroy or Abandon Way-Ward Children/Creations thinking that WITHOUT the Engineers knowledge they would NEVER advance to be a Space Faring Race. (thus Threat).
*The ONLY location of any Advanced Technology regarding more Advanced than Mankind Possesses say NOW (or near Future) was the Scorpionaught and Juggernauts and that HANGER.
*The Engineers appeared to be Flocking to the Plaza around the Hanger to Welcome the Ship, as if this is something they DONT see too often or signals something of Great Importance. (they have no Fear or Concerns).
*The Engineers appear to be Dressed in Garments that are reminiscent of Ancient Times, but some appear to wear more Ritual/Ceremonial Robes.
*The Hanger is Surrounded by Four Statues that appear to be like the Buddhist Offering Statues, they appear to be Holding Something. We could maybe assume could this be a Sacrificial Bowl? If we assume the Statues looking like Buddha Offering Statues is for a Reason (Offer something). Then could this indicate that the Return of a Ship means a Ceremonial Sacrifice is due?
*The Plaza has Statues of Engineers, if we consider a Superficial Offering and Contemplate that maybe the Juggernauts are a Advanced Seeding Ship, where Engineers are Sacrificed and their Broken Down (after Goo) Material is Stored in Urns... then would dropping Engineer DNA Urns onto a World be a more Efficient Seeding than sending down a LONE Engineer to do the Task?
This would explain why those Engineers are NOT afraid, and if the Sacrifice is seen as a Great Ritual/Honor where the Chosen are in essence going to be Immortalized by their Seed Creating Life, and also then having a Statue Erected in their Honor, then maybe Planet 4's Purpose makes more Sense?
Especially as Ridley Scott still refers to them as Gardeners of Space.
Thats just my interpretation though.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"I didn't wanna do this but..."
Absolutely everyone can have their own different views and theories and opinions, its their right to have these. Sometimes i maybe come across as Forceful about my opinions i hope this is not the case as its not intended. I have noticed other Sites do Spiral out of Control and its WHY i just stick to here ;)
"Alien: Covenant would be more unrestrained and creative,"
I certainly think we could be Creative, the Scope of Prometheus was HUGE it maybe had TOO much Scope to be done any Justice within the Restraints of a Movie, especially when the Studios would be looking at something that would engage most fans.
Its a Good Point about Stanley Kubrick as i felt Ridley Scott was trying to expand the Franchise to give us a more Thought Provoking, Space Adventure type Spin Off Franchise, than to center around the Xenomorph alone..
so in Context to a "Dare to Dream" i think its interesting to open up our imagination to things that would not be restricted by Running Time or what Disney would feel the Fans would want. My reply about a LV-223 Movie was just in context that this would be the more Easy Route to become something more ALIENY and Steer Away from all the things that a Prometheus Sequel was intended to Steer Away from... which is shame as i would have liked to had seen such a Direction (Steer Away from ALIEN).
"As for the origin of the eggs on LV-426, their origin matters not, only that as preference would seem to dictate,"
I have to agree, but this is what some would expect... i think its a shame in Hindsight that Prometheus did-not have some more ALIENY Elements and LESS Ambiguous Clues to the Xenomorph, so then the Door could have been Closed to ALIEN.
Perhaps enough clues to suggest David's Xenomorphs are NOT on LV-426 would be enough, this could be done by some Dialog especially if David is shown to Evolve/Create his own Humanoids.. then when he is confronted by some Humans he could go on about HOW he had Perfected the Engineers Lamb in Creating a more Superior Humanoid, and that this is NOTHING compared to the Perfection he has in mind for the Engineers Wolf.. He then shows them a EGG. We could have some more similar Dialog that would then indicate he HAD created his own Version. Thus NO need to even see the Original LV-426 Event... (but some Fans would still want to see this).
This is WHY maybe a LV-223 Movie that would be kind of a Re-Do of Prometheus Mixed with Alien Engineers that would be LESS ambiguous but NOT Spoon Feed the Xenomorph would also then CLOSE the DOOR to the Franchise, and then allow us to explore what David gets up to without the Restraints of having to be about Xenomorphs.
But in context to this Topic we can talk about things that dont have to cater for Fans who want to just see movies that would center around the Xenomorph and its Origins.
"Personally, I still believe that the Engineers are primitive human slaves, used by some higher power (Space Jockeys maybe"
I think that certainly could be something to explore.. i think the Answers have always been in our FACE... in that DAVID is the KEY, he would related to the Continuing Creation ARC and Purpose that is maybe Repeated over and over. In such a Narrative then IF we see David Evolves those Embryos to be his own Superior Version of Humanity then its likely the Conclusion could be they would REBEL against David... in which Case David would then have to use his WOLF.
What i mean is that David was not merely created to be the Cherished Son that Peter Weyland had always wanted. So maybe we was NOT created by the Engineers to be Loved and Cherished but for other Reasons, and this could keep going back and back and apply to the Engineers too.
GOD => Angels => Mankind
Anunnaki => Igigi => Mankind
Titans => Olympians = Mankind
So yes having the Humanity and Engineers Creations being related to the same Purpose could be interesting, are Mankind Created to replace the Engineers? if so by the Engineers or by those above the Engineers?
I certainly think we could go UP say a LAYER or TWO and have this explain the Space Jockey Race, and even a Race above them!
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
@BigDave sure there are hierarchies of gods in mythology but do the relations are not quite as straight forward as you claim. In many myths I know there is a personification of the primordial Chaos from which things spring up, or at least must be overcome to bring order. This Entity could be considered somewhat equivalent to Lovecraft's Elder Gods, and the Goop itself could have been a by-product of the process of apparent taming. This is what the mural showed, with the Engineer subduing the Bird-creature with xenomorph type hands.
And there also the fact that in some variants of the Greek myths humans are created by Prometheus (a Titan) and Athena (an Olympian), so sometimes the various generations can cooperate.
Nostalgia didn't work out too well for Alien: Covenant, and may not work out so well for an action-packed Alien movie. Disney and Fox, and especially Emma Watts know their industry and their market. Granted they make the odd faux pas (X-Men: Apocalypse, The Predator, etc.) but with an established franchise such as the Alien franchise the fact that only one of the four preferred movies (Alien, Aliens, Alien 3, and Prometheus) is action orientated, together with Scott's influence of returning its franchise to its roots as a science fiction horror (despite not actually being a horror director) are more likely. The only slight concern is that Disney may influence Fox to lessen the more gory and sexual elements so that future Alien movies can be released with a lower rating in the hope of attracting somewhat bigger audiences - but from a business and logical perspective, this makes perfect sense.
Although this discussion isn't about Neill Blomkamp's proposed movie, imagine this - what if Blomkamp's movie (minus Ripley and Co., to appease fans) was made revisiting elements such colonial marines, dropships, APC's, etc., but was executed as a horror movie rather than an action movie. Such a movie if executed well could please fans of both Alien and Aliens, merging the sense of dread and fear from the first movie with the aesthetic of the second movie.
As for Noomi vs Katherine. Thanks to Prometheus, Girl with a Dragon Tatoo, and Bright many fans are becoming aware of Noomi's potential. Waterston, on the other hand, is a virtual nobody, with some audiences (the I don't care about Alien type), thinking the character she played was Ripley.
I would wager the head of the "Giger screw over" movement since Alien 3 would be David Giler, and I'm sure most are aware of my feelings in that regard.
Sacrifice is a common theme not only in antiquity but also in the lore of the Engineers as shown in the opening scene of Prometheus. It is likely that some Engineers are chosen to be sacrificial either directly (Prometheus opening scene) or indirectly (LV-223) which would explain the commonalities between the two that separate them somewhat from the Paradise City Engineers (musculature, complexion, darkened eyes, etc.), suggesting such Chosen few are augmented in some way.
As with ancient civilizations, it is likely that despite their primitive nature the ruling castes of Engineer society, presumably, the Elders are more knowledgable of the true nature behind their Eden Paradise, their heritage as humans, and the deal they have made with the devil. As such, and as hinted at in Advent it is likely these Elders believing they were acting in their societies best interests, broke their part of the deal and renounced the "wolf".
Elements as deeply philosophical and mythological could be included in a simple scene whereby one of the lead characters discovers some Engineer hieroglyphs, that fans could pause on DVD/Blu-Ray and decrypt, without overburdening general/casual audiences with time-consuming exposition.
As for the conclusion to Davids narrative arc, I think elevating the character to potentially greater delusions of grandeur would further distance any association fans have with the character. In Prometheus, David was an interesting enigma, but all too often many have related that in ALien: Covenant David has become a caricature, a stereotypical mustache-twirling uber-villain. What Davids arc needs is redemption or humility because for his arc to be effective we have to be able to associate with his case, no matter how maniacal it may seem on the surface. We need understandable context to his madness - Vader was cool and threatening, but once is narrative was expanded he became 3-dimensional and multifaceted, and much more interesting and relatable as a character.
@Gavin What you describe is more or less the AvP video games without the P part.
How can you say that Waterston is nobody as she was starred in the 2 Fantastic Beasts movies (and will also be in the third), both making more (in total more than 1.4 bn dollars world-wide) than anything (and combined everything) Rapace was in, including the second Sherlock movie with Robert Downey Jr. American audiences don't even know or care about the original Swedish Girl series, for them there is only Fincher's remake. How can the 2 Netflix movies quantified as BO potential? And I don't think they could afford killing yet another "lead". If money is king it's obvious for them to pick Waterston or to bring somebody new in.
I don't understand the concern for lack of gore and sex, Covenant was the most gory in the series and did that help? The real problems are nostalgia and rehashing (which were already there in Covenant) which are the only thing Disney seem to produce (The Star Wars sequels, live action adaptations, some of the recent MCU movies).
AvP Games? I have played them (Capcom, Monolith, and Rebellion, though not the Atari Jaguar). I see no mention of Praetorians, Specimen 8 and the like. AvP belongs in comic and video game form, so please clarify.
Purely based on what we have seen of Waterston in Covenant, and Rapace in Prometheus, Rapace's performance was much more captivating and dynamic. I'm too old to be a Potter fan so I haven't seen what Waterston did in Fantastic Beasts. But I did see her in another movie were she was collecting blood, and she was completely forgettable.
Waterston may be the more bankable option currently speaking, but when it comes to acting ability Rapace is IMO the better choice, and in terms of their characters I feel Shaw's narrative is of more interest than that of Daniels.
I agree somewhat on the nostalgia issue, but was also pleasantly surprised by The Punisher TV series. Thus I would like to remain optimistic that Disney would recognize that Alien performs better when it remains dark and foreboding.
To another point now...
If a Weyland-Yutani expedition to LV-223 is to be used to supply the much needed human element of the narrative, while exploring the fate of the Prometheus we have the opportunity to add to the mythology of the Xenomorph.
If said expedition occurs at the same time as Davids story arc and that of Walter and Shaw, this would mean that Deacon will have been on LV-223 for 10+ years alone.
While we could just leave it up to speculation as to how it survived what if we instead show that it cocooned itself (a la Species, above) within some sort of biomechanical/organic hypersleep pod, waking when it senses the Weyland-Yutani vessel landing.
As for the deacons design, remember that what we saw was the burster. For the adult form, we could take some of the designs used in Scified's Design the Adult Deacon competition back in 2012 combined with that of the Deacons burster form and the classic Xenomorph...
P.S. Bear with me as I update the posts to show the images on said thread.
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