David Did Not Create the Xenomorph (Part 2)33,730 Views177 RepliesAdd A Reply
As we all know, in the original film Alien the crew of the USCSS Nostromo (on their way back to Earth), on company orders, investigate a signal coming from the moon LV-426. Captain Dallas, Kane and Lambert follow the beacon which is, in fact, a warning (in an alien signal system). They discover the Derelict and the eggs, and Kane is “infected” by a facehugger which eventually leads to the famous xenomorph.
According to this classic movie, the crew are woken, by “Mother”, because a new and strange signal has been detected. However, “Mother” should have detected the signal already on the way from Earth towards Thedus. Why didn’t “she”? The answer to this question seems to be that on Thedus, the original science officer is replaced by Ash, a company synthetic, whose main task it is to implement Special Order 937 (which “Mother” is also instructed to follow).
In the prequel Prometheus, we follow Sir Peter Weyland’s expedition to another moon in the same system, LV-223, due to the discoveries of maps found in old cave paintings by doctors Holloway and Shaw. However, in the extra material on the blue-ray version of Prometheus, namely “Quiet Eye: Elisabeth Shaw”, Sir Peter Weyland states:
“As fate would have it, Shaw and Holloway’s interest in Zeta 2 Reticuli has proven to be mutually beneficial. While the good doctors rely on ancient carvings and primitive cave paintings, my science division’s own long range scans have recently detected a faint, almost imperceptible signal emanating from one of the lesser moons in that system. And contrary to the findings of Shaw and Holloway, which target LV-223 as our primary site of interest, our findings suggest the point of origin could actually be the moon LV-426.
Per standard procedure, we will embed a David 8 unit with the crew. And he will be programmed with multiple contingency plans to address and exploit whatever assets we secure on LV-223. But only David will know about 426 and will ensure that the rest of the crew - including Meredith - learn nothing about the transmission we’ve recently discovered until the time is right.”
The beacon, or warning signal, from the Derelict on LV-426 is already there long before the Prometheus expedition! It is, therefore, impossible that David could be the creator of the eggs on LV-426! Hence, the Space Jockey is as old as Dallas claims it to be: “Looks like it's been dead a long time. Fossilized”. The most plausible explanation would be that the Space Jockey is at least as old as the engineer corpses on LV-223.
Furthermore, in Prometheus, the expedition discovers the engineer experimentation facility on LV-223. They find the body of an engineer, dead for about 2000 years. They find ampules containing a pathogen which mutates organisms into hideous creatures. On a wall, they find a mural depicting a ritual in which hominids (engineers or humans) are “sacrificed” in order to create the deadly xenomorph creature (The whole cycle is there: egg, facehugger, chestburster, and the xenomorph creature).
Later on in the movie, we see what the pathogen can achieve when David persuades Holloway to have a drink spiced with the pathogen. Through intercourse, Shaw is also infected and gives birth to a large “facehugger” (the trilobite) which in turn infects a still living engineer who “gives birth” to a xenomorph creature (the deacon).
Concerning the eggs on LV-426, they were lying in wait there long before David was even contemplated and created by Sir Peter Weyland. Millennia before the crew of the USCSS Nostromo lands on LV-426, the eggs were there, patiently waiting . . .
What does 10 years of isolation do to a synthetic? “When a note is off, it eventually destroys the whole symphony”. David, seeing himself as superior to both humans and engineers, has in the situation of “Crusoe on his island” developed delusions of grandeur, seeing himself as the creator of the “perfect organism”.
This creature, the “perfect organism”, was in fact discovered or created by the engineers aeons ago and which, as far as the engineers on Planet 4 goes, they had renounced from ever creating again.
So, David wants to believe that he is the creator of the wolf, “the perfect organism”, but “in reality” - David did not create the xenomorph!
"But, in a flashback scene (2000 years back in time on LV-223) we see an Engineer running towards a juggernaut, sets off, but eventually crash lands on LV-426"
There are a number of ways we could go and indicate the Derelict and Cargo had been on LV-426 for Thousands of Years, without having to SHOW the Event.
A Movie that goes to LV-223 could indicate this for us, by Virtue of Exploring another Complex and either on a Ship or in some Room have some Engineer Storage Devices that contain Small Xenomorph Eggs and either IMPLY that these are Successful Results or Eggs that the Engineers had used to Experiment with.
Indicating these Eggs had been on LV-223 for Many Thousands of Years would give us some AMBIGUITY to Alien Covenant and allow the LV-426 Event to become a Mystery again... One that will NOT have a Answer but one where its left OPEN to those Eggs being there for a LONG LONG time.
Where Fans can Speculate if David had gone back to LV-223 to obtain one of those Eggs! Certainly gives David a good reason to have Dr Shaw placed into Cryo-sleep for a Journey that may-not have taken LONG but Dr Shaw does-not know that.
Certainly gives David more avenues to HOW he learned the Engineers Ways...
You could go Further by Spoon Feeding that indeed those Eggs had been on the Derelict, and that David had obtain them as such.
Problem is so much that counters that idea... David said his Creatures would be UNLEASHED on the Galaxy if Weyland-Yutani take up his Advent Message... but then we could Speculate this is regarding his VERSION.
If we got a Sequel that was more Alieny that went to LV-223, its a case of what do they then do with David and the Covenant and what happens to them? Another Alieny movie about his Xenomorphs while giving Clues to the others...
Engineers rock up with the Original Xenomorphs vs Davids Cheap Knock Offs?
Some Fans would see this as a WET-DREAM... i think its quite different to what RS would have done... But Disney will Call the Shots now and who knows..
I wont rule out a Ripley vs Engineers, vs Predators vs Aliens ;)
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Well, it’s possible, of course, that David went back to LV-223 when Shaw was in hypersleep but I see no reason for believing that he did. According to the movie he created everything in the lab (but not in the novel), eggs, hybrids etc.
Returning to LV-223 would be interesting indeed, seeing what's inside the other facilities. However, W-Y must know by now that there is something interesting on LV-223. Wouldn’t they go there rather than letting a star freighter check out a signal?
If everything is wiped out, Planet 4, Origae-6 (if they have been there) and LV-223, the Engineers can leave this part of the galaxy for good.
But there was one Engineer who left LV-223 2000 years ago . . .
Certainly we dont know 100% what Transpired between Prometheus and the Crossing. It certainly looks like a number of Items had been Salvaged from either the Prometheus Wreckage or the Life-Boat before Dr Shaw and David had departed LV-223, so David could have gone back we simply dont know.
LV-223, Planet 4 and Origae-6 offer some Conflicts with the ALIEN Franchise at Present... after David sends the Advent Message you have to think the Company would Investigate at least TWO of those Places.
LV-223 and Planet 4 have Experiments, Black Goo and Organisms related to the Deacon, Neomorph and Xenomorph and so we have to ask WHY does the Company only Pursue LV-426 and then Ripley in the ALIEN Franchise?
So its likely these places would be DESTROYED or of NO USE to the Company by the Time we arrive after the events of ALIEN at least.
Considering the Plot of Alien Covenant and what Ridley Scott says about the Engineers will return and how we have YET to have the Space Jockey/Derelict event, then we have to WONDER what becomes of the Engineers after the events of the Prequels that are YET to unfold.
I will add in Context to the Events Connected to the Eggs... that a lot of Fans are NOT pleased with the David as Creator Plot, i think Best Case Scenario for them is some Indication in a Future Movie that SHOWS that the Eggs had been on LV-426 for a LONG LONG Time.. (Prior to Prometheus). A Number of people would actually rather see a Reboot of the Prequels to De-Canon Prometheus and Alien Covenant... i cant see that happening.
A Worse Case Scenario for some Fans... Definite Proof that David's Eggs get on the Derelict and WORSE! That David becomes the Space Jockey. I feel this Scenario is actually more possible than a Indication that the Derelict and Eggs are a Ancient Event. Because it would fit with the THEMES at play in the Prequels and would either show David's Hubris or his Redemption.
I think we need to look at a Scenario thats Middle Ground that places David as a Middle Man, and that the Experiments with and Evolution of his Creation at the hands of the Engineers proves to be THEIR Hubris.
So our Space Jockey is a Engineer or some Related Species..... the Destruction of LV-223 could be used as a Plot Device to Tear a Hole in Space/Time that sends the Derelict back Thousands of Years.
(but this could also cause a Paradox)
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Well, David and Shaw must have had a quick look at the wreckage site (They wouldn’t go to Miss Vicker’s lifeboat. Shaw knows what’s there) on their way to the other facility and the juggernaut there.
Yes, at present, W-Y knows about LV-223, Planet 4, and Origae-6. These would, therefore, have to be wiped out. Otherwise, there would be no point in going to LV-426 in search of a xenomorph.
Yes, David becoming the Space Jockey would be unsatisfactory, to say the least . . .
And I can’t see Engineers continuing David’s work since to me it seems they left that path a long time ago: “they tried to banish the wolf. And undo their creation”. For what they had done, they thought that “sacrifice cleansed them of their sin”.
chli Wasn't Shaw scavenging for resource on the life boat when the Engineer attacked? I cannot see from where else she could have found anything as everything else blew up. But what would have the Engineer would have eaten during his trip to Earth?
Well for RS, David becoming the Spacey Jokey probably would have been a great twist, but reactions happened...
"But what would have the Engineer would have eaten during his trip to Earth?"
Your reply kind of would have been like mine, in that Dr Shaw and David had obtained ... a Star Chart, a Table, the Flare Gun, Tools to repair David and picture of Holloway/Shaw among other things that surely could not have all been found in the Wreckage of the Prometheus.
We have to bare in mind if we consider the Ending of Prometheus as Chronological then the Deacon had Gestated in the Engineer for over 4 days... enough time for David and Dr Shaw to Salvage from the Life-Boat, the Engineer maybe appearing as Dead?
Again its a case of Poor Writing and Oversight perhaps.
Regarding the Quote i took, as far as "But what would have the Engineer would have eaten during his trip to Earth?"
Well the Crossing Draft by Logan seemed to show the Juggernauts have Showering Facilities and a Room that grows Fruit lol... But then also Dr Shaw was attracted to David and they Sex so enough said about that Poor Writing ;)
The Banish the Wolf comment is Ambiguous it could be regarding the Genetic Engineering using other Organic Traits to Evolve themselves.
I think its a case of how do they Fix it?
1) Cave in and U-Turn again and somehow show that the Xenomorph is Ancient and David does-not create it?
2) Continue with the David as the Creator Arc despite it NOT pleasing most Fans..
3) Try and find a way to give a best of both worlds Solution?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Shaw went to Miss Vicker's life pod because she needed oxygen. It was not in order to stroll about. The photograph of her and Holloway can hardly have been in Miss Vicker's quarters . . .
As for "the wolf". I interpret it as meaning the xenomorph (not genetic engineering). David also has his "lambs" to experiment upon, but "the wolf" is "the perfect organism" which David will unleash if they don't heed his olive branch (peace treaty).
Is David the creator of the xenomorph or isn't he? That is the question. A "best of both worlds solution", would that really satisfy everybody?
chli I've just rewatched the scene after the crash. Shaw is to leave the "life boat" with a bag of supplies. The Prometheus blew up to smithereens so it is highly likely that nothing remained to salvage. The pictures of Shaw (1 in the derelict and 1 on David's altar to her) in Covenant is pure magic as I don't see how could have survived the explosion of the Prometheus neither does Shaw take with her pictures (only the ring).
Like i said and Ignorantguy has pointed out, it comes down to the Writers NOT really thinking about HOW can one Movies Ending lead to the Next without any Conflicts.
The Plot of Alien Covenant had indicated that it took David and Dr Shaw quite some time before she could TRUST him, for this you needed PLOT Conveniences... for those they needed to have Salvaged Stuff from the Prometheus. and so as Ignorantguy also said we have to look at where LIKELY these could have came from.
They could have been Salvaged from the Wreckage but i find it UNLIKELY
But for Plot Convenience and Lazy Writing and Oversight it cant be ruled out! The other OPTION is the Life-Boat and indeed Dr Shaw had gone there for some Supplies as she was running low on Oxygen.
A thing to remember is WHEN/WHERE did Dr Shaw make her SOS Warning? If this was while on LV-223 then what we have to Consider is that this SOS was DAYS after the Prometheus had been Destroyed.
So its likely she had gone back to the Life-boat for items she may need, this is based on what would account for the Plot Elements that we saw in The Crossing. It is a MASSIVE Convenience that the Photos of Dr Shaw and Holloway were on the Life-Boat but it was also a Massive one IF they had Survived the Destruction of the Prometheus and by that Virtue if the Photo's Survived then other things could have too.
It all is just a Oversight to suit the PLOT of The Crossing.
"A "best of both worlds solution", would that really satisfy everybody?"
Well the ANSWER would be NO!
I dont think anything will please everyone.. and Disney would have to look at what may please MOST... but FOX made this mistake with giving us Alien Covenant as far as bring back the Beast.
They could CAVE IN and give us a Movie that goes to LV-223 and Discover in a Complex they have a Queen and that the Queen Actually Produces a Nano-Parasite Organism and these then Gestate into Xenomorph Eggs. Which then could reveal the Engineers saw that these Parasites could also Infect a Organism Directly and Evolve them into a Hybrid.
And so the Engineers just Experimented on these Parastic Procreative Organisms the Queen Produces to make the Black Goo.
They could turn the Sacrificial Scene to actually being the Engineers Procreating Xenomorph related Horrors and NOT seeding his DNA.
Then we would get a Indication the Xenomorph is ANCIENT and Natural and the Engineers merely just Experimented on them... or SERVED them... such a Plot Change could please a lot especially those Cameron's Aliens Fans..
But even changing things may NOT work if the Movie is POOR and there would be some Fans who still would not like that Direction... You simply are NOT going to please Every Fan....
I now think they have a even more Difficult Task to do that NOW, considering the David Created it Plot.
Its a Question of do they TRY and please as many Variants of Fans, but maybe a "Best of Both Worlds" would not work.... do they Continue with the David Creates It Plot which many Fans may Boycott or indeed just Pretend it NEVER happened.... or do they Find someway to show the Xenomorph was Ancient.
I have had a FEW ideas who to do that.... also considered before Christmas a QUEEN as the Origin like Plot as vaguely covered above... i am NOT a Fan of it, but i thought it out as maybe a way to make it about some Related Organism as the Origins of the Goo/Eggs. as maybe that would please more?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Regarding the WOLF... yes with David it appears it is the Xenomorph and his Lambs will be the Covenant Colonist.
Regarding the Engineers its more Ambigious... i think the WOLF related to the Genetic Experiment/Black Goo and maybe the Sub-Creation of the LV-223 Engineers?
But it could be interpreted that there SOLE Agenda was to Create Xenomorph Related Organisms that they then used others to Sacrificed themselves for.
This could be looked at and made to FIT with the whole ALIEN Plot as far as Xenomorph... but it kind of Conflicts the Gardeners of Space and HOW the Engineers interacted with Mankind in Ancient History Plot and also looking at certain things with Planet 4 and considering the Prometheus Mythos and Fallen Angels.
I am led to Ponder that some Engineers had grown fed up of their Purpose to Serve, and at some point had came into Contact with a Parasitic Life-Form that they then saw the Results as Intriguing and so they began to Experiment with this and Worship the work they had done and Intended to Populate this more Perfect DNA across the Galaxy instead of using the Engineers DNA.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think back to the OT....
Then indeed its been a Process Regarding the PLOT of those Eggs... Starting from Starbeast... but i think we need to ignore that... and just look from ALIEN and then it does appear that Ship had been there for MUCH longer than 17.5 Years or Less.
The Prequels began to Indicate a Connection between the Space Jockey and Xenomorph, and while Prometheus Toned down some stuff, Alien Engineers and Prometheus had indicated the Xenomorph was Related to Experiments Carried out on Outposts from Thousands of Years ago. THUS implying the Derelict had been on LV-426 well the Xenomorphs had been around for WAY before Prometheus.
Ridley Scott even explaining the Space Jockey Event as it was not Spoon Fed on Film, and RS had indicated the Event was connected to the LV-223 Experiments and the Derelict had been on LV-426 for about 2000 Years. (give or take few hundred)
We while this seemed to be the case Prior to 2015, things changed and we got Alien Covenant where it seemed to imply that DAVID had been the Creator
Ridley Scott again came in and Confirmed this to be the Case.
There are a Few things that Give those who dont see the Xenomorph as being a Creation of David's some Hope/Proof that the Xenomorph was NOT created by him.
1) Dallas had said the Space Jockey was Fossilized this is incorrect but Dallas is NO Expert, the Space Jockey would have been Ossified. But then we have to remember the Space Jockey was considered a Space Suit (Concept and RS comments). Regardless the Scene does-not look like it was something that would Occur in under 20 Years. and so does HOLD some Weight (Ancient Xenomorph).
2) The Mural in Prometheus showing a Xenomorph and Face Huggers, the Mural is Ambiguous and it simply shows a related Organism to the Xenomorph/Deacon with Alternative Face Huggers. it HOLDS no Weight as evidence (Ancient Xenomorph).
3) The Novel by ADF, which indicates that David discovers the Egg as it was... However he did his Novel based of some of the Earlier Drafts which had NO indication of this and it was simply something that ADF added. This means we maybe cant Consider this as Canon and its Questionable regarding if it HOLDS any Weight... But its something that cant be 100% thrown out. (But the Movie should be Prime Source of Evidence).
4) The Artwork of David his Experiments and some of these show more Classic Xenomorph and also the Classic Chest Buster, they are NOT so easy to make out in the Movie, or the Advent so much.. But they are work that David had apparently drawn.. So is this PROOF he had Contact with the Classic Xenomorph? maybe or maybe NOT...
They could be Aspirations to what he wants to Perfect or that the Classic Design was First and the one in Alien Covenant are what he had Evolved them to. Does this indicate and HOLD Weight to the Ancient Xenomorph... MAYBE! But the Other Work Notes indicate that David had created all these things from Black Goo and Neomorph Spores and NOT from any EGGS.
So it seems likely that David had created or at least the Predecessor to the Xenomorph but this was created from the Neomorph and Black Goo that was NOT created by David.
But regarding the Eggs... it seems likely they Originated from David's Experiments on Planet 4, and are NOT a Ancient Organism.
This is the intention and indication by Ridley Scott too....
Disney own the Franchise, and would realize HOW Disappointing Alien Covenant was and how Fans are NOT happy with the Direction as far as ORIGIN or the Xenomorph and so there is EVERY chance that Disney could CHANGE the Origins to Please Fans... in order to NOT have Fans Boycott the Future Movies.
And so UNTIL we get a Conclusion or more Concrete Proof in Future Movies that either SETS IN STONE or Discounts that David is the Creator..
Then its up to Fans to as Dr Shaw says "Choose to Believe" in what they want.
My TWO CENTS... In Hindsight it was a Mistake... David should have Re-Created something Different and more Superior. The ULTRA-MORPH
PS but i know the intention was Ultra-Morph is just a Xenomorph Born from a Engineer.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Having Read TWO Drafts (Alien Covenant dated November 2015 and Paradise Lost dated August 2015)
Both seem to Indicate that the Ovomorph/Xenomorph that are shown are HIS Creation... his Masterpiece.
The Drafts are Available off the Internet.
The Drafts seem to Indicate that David had taken to Experimentation with the Neomorph and the Neomorph Egg Sacks (Spores) and he had done Various Re-Engineering to Obtain the Ovomorph/Xenomorph.
This does fit with what the Movie seems to Indicate and Davids Workshop Notes... so we cant be sure what Version of the Draft that Alan Dean Foster had used as Reference for his Novel.
The November 20th 2015 Draft is Very Close to the Production of the Movie and Main Casting that began in December 2015
We however dont know what other Drafts prior to Paradise Lost draft of August 19th 2015 was like, so IF there was a Draft that gave ADF good indication the Xenomorph was something Discovered by David, then it would surely had to came from a Earlier Draft than August 2015 one. Otherwise it would seem some Changes he had Decided to make for himself that differ from the Drafts he had at Hand.
Again things can be Changed..... i just hope if they go the route that the Classic Xenomorphs had Pre-Existed 2093 then they do give some indication to WHAT it was that David had been up to... as it would be a Coinsidence if his Experiments ended up Creating something NEAR identical, unless he had a Plan/Designs of HOW to Create the Xenomorph and it is Explained that he Replicated this Plan as best as he could.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
@BigDave: You mention in an earlier post in this thread of the "Hammerpedes being the source" of the original Xenomorph on LV-223. How so though since wasn't the hammerpede evolved from the meal worm that came off the shoe of a Prometheus crew member in the chamber (so brought in from outside)?
That was a Theory based at the Time of Prometheus...
Reasons for the Theory...
*Worms appear to be Native to LV-223, or they had been brought to LV-223 in the Past (not by the Prometheus Crew) and so IF those Worms where on LV-223 even Thousands of Years ago... then a Outbreak in the Past could also had Created Hammerpedes.
*The Hammerpede had gone down the Throat of Milburn, for What Reason? Typically we see the Xenomorph as something that has the Agenda to Procreate, this Trait could be Carried on by the Organisms the Engineers Experimented with on LV-223, so the Pathogen makes Organisms that Procreate.. (see this in Alien Covenant with Neomorph Spores). So i wonder IF the Hammerpedes could ACT like a Face Hugger and Deposit something down the Throat?
*The Hammerpede had Acid for Blood.... if the Black Goo in those Urns and Experiments Predated the Xenomorph, then we could wonder does the Hammerpede play a Role in their Origins?
*The other 3 Engineers on the Juggernaut had been Chest Busted, but by what? and When?
So i just Wondered if a Outbreak happened before, and Infected some Worms, who become Hammerpedes who can Lay Eggs, that Evolve into Organisms.. then MAYBE they could be what Caused those Engineers to Chest Burst?
Could that mean they lead to the Xenomorphs? who knows... i thought at least they could lay Eggs/Embryo's in a Host.
Ridley Scott had in 2012 Explained the Space Jockey Event... it happened within a Few Hundred Years of the LV-223 Outbreak, something had EVOLVED in the Cargo Hold and Infected the Pilot....
So i was drawn to this likely being AFTER the Outbreak...
Something Evolved from the Outbreak/Cargo Hold?
If on LV-223 they had Deacons in the Past, that was a Option, but to Evolve from the Black Goo... then would Engineers infected in Certain ways lead to a Organism like the Deacon? Maybe....
However if LV-223 had Worms, and they would Evolve to Hammerpedes in the Past, that would be something Evolved from the Pathogen.... if they could LAY Eggs which Worms can...
Then that led me to Consider the Hammepede as a Potential Origin... but only as a Potential.
I attempted to Re-Write Prometheus where i indicated the Hammerpedes do Lay Eggs in a Host.... we see a Hammerpede killed and reveal Tiny Eggs similar to Xenomorphs were inside the Organism.
Also Milburn has a Buster that i Envisioned was not too different to the Neomorph, and i had this idea (and shared it on here) back in Early 2014
My intention was to NOT suggest the Hammerpede leads to a Xenomorph but the Black Goo could Evolve Organisms to Procreate something Similar.
Just to show more of a Connection... my Re-Write (which i lost before Completion) also had a Hybrid Fifield with Acid Blood, and the Trilobite had Acid Blood. And Finally we also get a Brief Glimpse behind the Mural Door... for a Moment..
Reveals a Sacrificial Chamber with Cryo-Pods but with Tubes running below them, and another at the Top... and also Smaller like Storage Containers that are like Smaller Cyro-Pods... and a Mural!
Intention to show the Engineers would Place Sacrifices into the Cryo-like Pods.. Think Engineer Versions of the Prisoners from Alien Resurrection... Then in the Smaller Containers are Organisms related to Trilobites/Face Huggers, these are Removed and Placed to Infect a Host who are then Shut off into the Cryo-Pods...
These Pods can have the Sacrificial Goo Injected into them, which then Breaks Down the Organism inside and Collects the Material that is Siphoned off to some place.
I idea similar to this...
We ended up with Alien Covenant and its Indication that David created the Xenomorph.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
'1) Dallas had said the Space Jockey was Fossilized this is incorrect but Dallas is NO Expert, the Space Jockey would have been Ossified. '
The murdered Engineers on Planet 4 looked fossilized/ossified to me and that's after only 10 years!(actually looked fossilized five minutes after David bombed them)
I remember seeing the Pre-production stills of the corpses on the steps and thinking that they were long dead Engineers.(certainly not freshly murdered!)
I assumed the pathogen escaped and killed them all. Self inflicted.
I'm okay with David creating the beast(or a version of the beast). I don't see a cosmic entity creating it. Why does it look humanoid? Probably a humanoid creator.
@BigDave: A Hammerpede also went down the throat of Fifield but it didn't oviposit eggs that would then hatch and chestburst instead seemingly causing him to begin directly transforming into a hybrid-xenomorph.
And if something had evolved in the cargo hold of LV-223 and infected the Engineers there in the past, why the shock did the awoken one decide to continue on his mission when he’d be at risk of contagion himself instead of nuking the facility?
I do agree though that it is the Black Goo that programmes whatever it comes into contact with to procreate, whether it be flora or fauna.
Regarding the Hammerpedes again... Indeed there is NO Proof they would ACT like a Face Hugger, its only something we can Speculate on, some of the Aesthetic had a look of the Face Huger (Tail) Especially Concept work. The Hammerpede Regenerated its Head, a Trait that some Worms posses and so the Pathogen likely Enhanced this Trait.
So i was thinking OK if these are similar to some Worms we get on Earth, then how do Worms Procreate and many are Hermaphrodites and to Procreate you would NEED to have TWO Worms who would MATE and then BOTH would have their Eggs Fertilized. So i thought OK so would those Worms on LV-223 be Similar, and what way could this be Enhanced by the Pathogen?
We saw TWO Hammerpedes and so i pondered could they have MATED?
So they maybe then have Fertilized Eggs, or even if not, if the Worms would have Procreated like this and are Egg Layers, then would the Hammerpedes be Egg Layers?
Then i looked at the Franchise to that Point and the Alien Organisms seemed to be interested in Procreation of their Species, and the Face Hugger was they way they would Procreate in a Host.... so i just wondered IF the Hammerpede was similar, that would explain WHY it had gone down Milburns Mouth.
Regarding Fifield... he was NOT attacked by the Hammerpede, he had Acid Squirt onto his Helmet which began to Melt it, and he then Fell Over HEAD FIRST into a Puddle of Black Goo which then got into his Melting Helmet and Infected him.
"when he’d be at risk of contagion himself instead of nuking the facility?"
I would say his Prime Directive would be to Make Sure that Earth is Destroyed, now he would know we can Reach the Stars and their Outposts, then a Mission to Destroy has become 100% Necessary.
In Alien Engineers/Genesis.. (Earlier Drafts to Prometheus) the Surviving Engineer was awoken and he was MAD too, he had then Cursed the Humans as they had NOW Forsaken him as he was Infected.... by Awakening him then the Infection would Continue... so he then Decided to go and HEAD to Earth too..
Only he Crashed his Ship as he was Chest Bursted.
so that showed the Engineers would still try and carry on with their Mission even if Infected.
But Regarding the Evolving in the Cargo Hold (which RS had said was in the Derelict Cargo Hold) this does-not really apply anymore as we got Alien Covenant, which seems to Indicate that prior to David there would be NO Eggs on the Derelict at all.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I remember First Seeing those Set Photos and wondered had David and Dr Shaw arrived at Paradise to Find that it had been Bombarded Thousands of Years prior...
Thats before we got information on the David Bombardment Scene.
They do appear to be Desiccated/Mummified, this can Happen in Short Period under Certain Cir***stances.
with the Space Jockey if we accept the Suit is Part Organic then the same thing could happen... HOWEVER.. a Flaw is that the Prometheus Engineer Suits do-not look as Aged, the Color is a Duller Grey and Less Glossy but they have not turned to a Bone Color...
So the Space Jockey looked Aged/Desiccated/Mummified for LONGER than those Dead Engineers on LV-223 who had been there for THOUSANDS of Years...
Will this Difference be Answered for WHY/HOW just like the Size Difference (never mind a slight Aesthetic Difference) or are they just OVERSIGHT!
Regarding the Creation of the Xenomorph, then yeah makes sense to be a Creation by a Humanoid... The idea of introducing a None-Human Entity or Machine i think would be something as far as the HIGHER level of Creation something WAY WAY more Ancient.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
In a way..You might say the Weyland company created the Xeno. David is their creation and he seems to be filled with many of the companies ideals? A little extreme perhaps.....but I don't think he would be fired(promoted?).....In fact..... Peter and the company would probably be very proud!
Also.......What will happen when David creates the Queen? If he could create a Queen..I don't think the audience would be too skeptical of the xenomorph creation? I mean Alien:Resurrection the company made a Queen that gives birth to the hybrid Newborn...I trust David (with Engineer data)to be on their level at least.
I'd start Covenant 2 with David working on the Queens structure/DNA/ or at least show him working on something sinister. I don't think you could hide the fact..most fans are going to figure it out....So no big reveal at the end.
I'd also have David discover Walters female synth partner in stasis(not a crew member...so not active? or some other reason)
This gives David a love interest and a new outlook on things........and new way to create something.....
Also gives Walter(if alive) a reason to seek David and the Covenant.
Regarding the Queen, if we Continue with the David as the Creator Plot, then Eventually that would mean the Queen in ALIEN is a Byproduct of Davids Experiments, either a Engineered Result or a case of Evolution of the Organism itself.
David had said he has yet to PERFECT his Queen, i think some Interpet this as he would be going to Create the Xenomorph Queen we see from the Franchise.
I am not sure RS would be taking us the route to Carbon Copy the ideas of James Cameron and so the QUEEN would be different to what we are used to.. so by Queen then David is just looking for a more Efficient way to Obtain more Eggs.
Not long back we had Ridley Scott talk about the Future of the Franchise where you could EVOLVE the Beast and Explore Different kinds of Reproduction. So its likely we Eventually would have seen Different Variants of the Organism with Different ways to Procreate.
Regarding the Female Synthetic... sure there would be Female Synthetics... and i kind of get where your GOING ;)
In my ideas for a Alien Covenant 2 and 3 i was to introduce a Female Synthetic Construct who becomes a Love Interest to David as she is Easier to Persuade to Join Him compared to Walter who Refused! So we have a bit of David acting like Lucifer/Serpent and this Synthetic being like Eve!
I was then left with TWO Ways this would END.. which was that the Engineers would Experiment with her to Create the Bio-Mechanical Xenomorph, or that she would Betray him and in Revenge he would create the Bio-Mechanical Xenomorph from her...
This is possible because as a Female Construct she is Part-Organic
Regarding Walter if he is Discovered and has a way he can try and get to David then i think it would be so he could SAVE... Daniels...
If this was ever to Happen and David is Stopped... and Walter Saves the Day... A Good Twist could be that Walter then Tells Daniels he LOVES HER..
We would not have this like AC where we can be thinking did David do a Switch Again.. no it has to be Clear there is NO more switching and this Walter came from Planet 4.
But it would leave us to think... is that Walter on Planet 4 also a David? Or is he 100% Walter but somehow his Programing has Changed... so now he has Emotions and so can Actually LOVE her..
Becoming more Human.. even though he could be Considered Good.... holds the Potential that Events Can Shape/Change what he would become... a ROBOT can only ACT according to his Program... a Human can be Influenced by Many Factors.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Yes, the excerps from the old drafts points to David as the creator. However, the pathogen had already produced small eggs by itself (which David perfected). The neomorphs are created by the pathogen alone (taking over puff spores) and human hosts. Even if David turns the eggs into xeno-eggs, it doesn't mean that it hasn't been done before.
Note also that neither Shaw nor Engineers seem to have been part of the process . . .
So, the pathogen seems to be programmed into creating xenomorphs . . .
"Regarding the Female Synthetic... sure there would be Female Synthetics... and i kind of get where your GOING ;)"
Great minds think alike! Just hope we don't have to use ours and RS get a move on!!
"The neomorphs are created by the pathogen alone (taking over puff spores)and human hosts"
I think the audience understanding is: A xenomorph is Davids version of the neomorphs? That's what I surmised from friends and family.
Anyone know RS's phone number?
Its been said before, but Indeed depending what you take into account for Clues, for someone who only sees the Movie and Discounts everything else, and who does-not look (pause etc) in depth David's Workshop, then you could come to Conclude its NOT in anyway Concrete that David had Created the Xenomorph, or to a lesser degree that he Maybe created the One in Alien Covenant but it is Different to the Original One from the Franchise.
If you add the Novel into the Equation then you would clearly be lead to Conclude the Xenomorph was just Discovered by David.
If you instead look at the Drafts then they indicate that David had Created the Xenomorph (Protomorph) via Cross Breeding, Experimentation with the Neomorph Motes and their Egg Sacks.
If you looked at the Workshop as in his Notes (which you could NOT clearly see or be able to read in the Movie) then these seem to Indicate he had Re-Engineered the Neomorph, and using the Black Goo to Cross Hybrid various Traits from Various Organisms to Perfect and Engineer the Xenomorph.
Then we have to Consider Ridley Scott who Confirms that David as the Creator of what Eventually becomes the Xenomorph in ALIEN.
Personally i think it was a MISTAKE... and they could have had him Create something very Similar but more different than the Alien Covenant Xenomorph looked...
We still have the Pathogen that was NOT created by David, and so we can Speculate WHY it appeared to Create Organisms that are Similar to the Xenomorph to a degree.... there is the Potential of other Xenomorph/Neomorph/Deacon like Monsters that could be Created or had been Created in the Past.
But indeed IF we dont look into other Details like Davids Workshop Notes, or what anyone on Production has said, and the Drafts.... Then it could be OPEN for the Xenomorph in AC to be something Different, and the Pathogen has a Natural Evolutionary Tree... where over Time the Organisms Created from the Pathogen will Eventually Evolve to the Xenomorph Form.
Its only when taking into Account the Advent, and Davids Workshop Notes, that its indicated the Xenomorph he Created had NOT just appeared to be Similar by Coincidence or Natural Evolution of the Pathogen, but that he had Specifically taken Traits from Various Organisms to Create the Xenomorph and thus it is a Mixture of Different Organisms he had encountered on Planet 4 that are Crossed Hybridized with Neomorph and Black Goo.
I think while its a Disappointment, it does FIT well with the Creation Arc and Themes and Hubris of Sub Creation...
But they should have known that Potentially having the Xenomorph as a Creation of David would be something that would FAR more upset Fans than the Not-So 15ft Space Jockey Engineers...
I have said it before.... maybe while we have to Accept in the End that David had Kick-started the Xenomorph Creation, what we have is NOT the FINAL Product..
He had Created his Proto-Morph from the Engineers Pathogen... NO PATHOGEN... and NO David Xenomorph!
At some point the Engineers in Prometheus seemed to be pretty Interested in Experiments with the Pathogen and had Encountered/Created other Organisms from this..
SHOULD any Engineers or a Race above them who had a Admiration for that work the Engineers had Carried out on LV-223, should they come across Davids Creation... they could be IMPRESSED.... but see there is ROOM for Improvement..
And they then Re-Engineer his Creation to get us to what we have in ALIEN. This would again FIT the overall Arc of Creation and would lead to the Space Jockeys Hubris..
The only DOWN-SIDE is the Xenomorph Eggs and Derelict would NOT had been on LV-426 for a LONG-TIME... but at least David is only the Middle-Man in the Xenomorph Creation.
How do we get to the Ancient Derelict? I think having LV-223 become Destroyed that Causes a Tear in Space/Time that sends the Ship back Thousands of Years could be a ANSWER... it also explains WHY after the Prequels the Company would Pursue the Derelict and Ripley and NOT go to LV-223.
It is Destroyed.... but such a idea would cause a Paradox, as the Derelict would be Cast Back in Time and be on LV-426 while the Engineers are Conducting their Experiments on LV-223.
So its a MESS really... to continue with the Route they had shown would NOT make Fans happy, to go and Undo it and show the Xenomorph was Ancient and on LV-426 for Thousands of Years and NOT created by David could just make a Mockery of the Prequels... and Contradictions... unless we throw everything shown out!
Because then HOW do they or do they NOT explain how by Coincidence that David had Created something similar....... Unless he Discovered a Blue-Print/How too Guide in the Engineers City, but then WHY would he try and Experiment and Waste a lot of time with other Creations/Experiments if he had the GUIDE to Create a Xenomorph?
Thats NOT to say they cant go this Route... they could, its just then i hope they give Good Reasons for WHY he had gone about with Experimenting on other stuff.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Well, we agree on RS having intended David as the creator of the xenomorph. What is strange though is that 20th Century Fox approves of A. D. Foster's novelization which clearly points out that David didn't create the xenomorph.
Oh, well, what is good though is that it's still possible to go either way. Perhaps it all ends with David not being the creator after all?
All's well that ends well . . . :)
P.S. I'm not particularly fond of the idea that the Engineers continue David's experiments. They're done with that. D.S.
It is odd that FOX had Green-lit the Novel without Requesting to Change the Scene that indicated that David had discovered the Egg as it stood.
Ultimately it acts as a Alternative a little something different to put out/change and then Engage the Fan Reaction. I would say a HIGH % of Fans would think that Revealing the Xenomorph did-not EXIST until AFTER we see David and Dr Shaw arrive at Planet 4, as nothing but a BAD Creative Choice/Change of Direction.
I kind of Understand WHY it was done, to basically tell the Tale of Hubris, in that if the Engineers Never Created us, showed us a Map to LV-223, attempted to Create such Horrific Bio-Weapons to use on US... then we would NEVER had Created David or then Reached LV-223 and everything that Happened Next.
Or even IF we... Mankind had NOT decided to Sub-Create and lead to David..
Then Mankind and the Engineers would be SAFE! (Maybe)
Some think it was a Big Finger to the Xenomorph by RS and how the Franchise had developed after ALIEN.
If that was True... or Regardless looking at the Idea it fits with Hubris.....
THEN..... they could have INSTEAD had David Create the Ultramorph. (we had not been shown one yet so it could have been covered).
Ultramorph was a Xenomorph born from Engineer well a Variant that was Born from a 15ft Engineer. They could have had David create a Variant Xenomorph that infected a Engineer which he could Coin the Ultramorph.
And reveal he was interested to see what this Organism would be like from a Human Host.
Essentially we have David Create a Variant of the Xenomorph that is Different, but is more closer to the Xenomorph than a Deacon or Neomorph, but not as close as the AC Xenomorph was..
His Experiments on how he Created this could be used to Figure Out how the Engineers Created their Original.
But we have to have it so that David's is Different and is more EVOLVED... that he had Surpassed the Engineers...
The Fall Out of the Prequels would have to show us that there is NOTHING to be gained from David's Xenomorph or LV-223 but the Company who want Davids Xenomorph become aware a Engineer Version is on LV-426 and if they can Follow Davids plans they can Re-Engineer those Eggs on LV-426.
THIS ^^^^ Route
Would have fitted the Hubris of Creating a AI just as the idea to make David the Original Xenomorph Creator would have... and IF wanted to give a BIG FINGER to the Franchise and Xenomorph.. THEN having his DAVID be the one to Create a Superior Variant would have done the Trick.
So it MADE.. no Real Sense the route they went, they should had been aware of the Potential Back Lash!
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Hey everyone I am new to this community so I do apologise if some of my points may have already been discussed as I'm sure they probably already have been considering the huge fandom surrounding this amazing franchise lol but I just want to highlight something.. doesn't the normalisation of alien Covenant describe the fact that David actually discovered an already existing alien Xenomorph egg? and due to the fact that he was not able to find a host or if in fact the egg eventually died as it shows that he already has an egg existing in his lab which he in fact sliced open and in the movie you see him pulling it apart but the scene was partially cut following that particular section.. maybe He retro engineered the exact same egg in order to create his own subspecies of engineered Xenomorph eggs (which for someone as intelligent as David would seem partially unlikely considering he is not creating anything from scratch at all, which goes against the notion of being an omnipotent creator if you are borrowing from pre-existing technology or bio-engineered aspects of an organism to literally just clone it or retrofit it or make a hybrid but maybe as people have stated in his hubris he simply just wanted to dabble his hands at creation.. I don't know) I guess I'm just trying to reconcile this but obviously this is fanciful and makes no sense unless more movies are made and Canon is finally explained properly with regards to leading up to the original alien movie. After watching Covenant the first time round I assumed that David was the original engineer with what we know to be the alien Xenomorph from the movies that preceded although from reading the normalisation it shows that the engineer's worshipped their Lord who apparently was conceived from a Xenomorph type creature or that they worshipped the original Deacon and used their Lords blood as a way to seed other planets.? I hope I have that correct I'm still trying to wrap my brains with regards to all the information that has been available over the years. Thank you for taking the time to read this if you have and thank you to the community. I love the atmosphere of creativity with regards to this particular niche aspect of movie history I find it fascinating and I find the whole concept of the Alien franchise amazing
I think a lot of Confusion comes from the Various Sources of Information.
Indeed there is quite a bit to Contradict the David had Created the Xenomorph Plot in the Franchise, but then when we ACCEPT this and look at it again, then there are things that would NOW make sense.
But ALAS those who worked on the Movie had decided it would be a Interesting Curve-ball to make David as the Creator and Ridley Scott had confirmed this to be the case. In Hindsight he should have Created a SUPERIOR version thats Aesthetically more different. (it is likely this was the Plan between 2013-2014).
Davids Lab Notes and Drawings with other stuff considered, does Indicate that he had Experimented and Cross-Hybrid various Organisms Traits with the Black Goo and Neomorph and used Dr Shaw's Reproductive System as the Last Part of the Puzzle to Create the Eggs.
The Novelization does suggest he had DISCOVERED the Egg and added a FEW other things, which do seem to be something that ALAN DEAN FOSTER had added himself and that was NOT in the Earlier Drafts that he had Worked from.
"that the engineer's worshipped their Lord who apparently was conceived from a Xenomorph type creature or that they worshipped the original Deacon and used their Lords blood as a way to seed other planets.?"
As far as i am aware this came from a FAN EDITED version of a Prometheus Draft, which is likely from a FAN who had added stuff because they FELT it made sense to the Mystery that Prometheus had left.
A lot has Evolved from Inception of the Concept, there is Quite a bit that has NEVER been Released that would Provide Answers (inc the FULL Pitch made by John Spaights Alien 01 The Master Narrative)
What we can Summarize from the later Drafts (Alien Engineers, and Alien Genesis) is the Engineers had some Creation Tool (Nano-Scarabs) and at some point they began to use this Creation/Hybridization Tool to Experiment with a Organism they LIKELY had encountered and they saw Potential with its DNA/Traits that they used the TOOL to Obtain its DNA and Create Various Hybrids from... Which lead to Various Types of Xenomorph that they Intended to USE against their other Creations (Mankind).
Those Drafts did-not in detail show HOW this was done, but it is likely they had taken this IDEA/PROCESS and applied it to what David had been up to to make him Create the Xenomorph.
The Mural in Prometheus does indicate the Engineers were AWARE of or Created something that Predated the Xenomorph but it is NO indication that the Xenomorph had Pre-existed at this Point. However comments by those working on the Project at the Time, had indicated these Experiments/Mural Predated the Xenomorph at this Time.
But at that TIME the Xenomorph was Conceived to STILL be something Created Thousands of Years ago.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017