As we all know, at the end of Aliens the atmosphere processor and Hadley’s Hope are blown up. But what about the site where the juggernaut and the space jockey are? And what about the eggs?
The colonists at Hadley’s Hope have not encountered any problems until Newt’s parents get the coordinates (from Burke) to investigate a site. This site is far away from the colony. It takes the family some time to get there with their vehicle.
The climate on LV-426 is terrible. It’s cold (“well below zero”). There are poisonous fumes and no oxygen. The inside of the juggernaut is open to the climate outside. However, the eggs are situated far below ground level (“a cave or something”). It’s warm (“like the goddam tropics”). And the eggs are protected by “a layer of mist”.
The atmosphere processor is run by something “like a nuclear reactor”. When it explodes it obliterates Hadley’s Hope. But what about the alien site (which is far away and the eggs are well protected)?
What are your thoughts? Are the eggs still there? Still waiting . . .
It seems reasonable, BIgDave, that once the hosts (and food?) are gone the adult xenomorphs die out and only the eggs are left, waiting . . . A juggernaut/derelict type ship could then travel there and collect eggs. This would of course be dangerous which we can see from the Space Jockey on LV-426 . . .
It also seems reasonable that the spores on Planet 4 evolved from black goo spilt from the crashed juggernaut and spread via the brook. I would also say that it seems likely that the whole Planet 4 is bereft of fauna since the chain reaction of spore infected life seems devastating. When the crew of the Covenant arrive, it’s a dead planet. However, they are themselves contributing with new hosts (and food?) . . .
I think when looking at Planet 4 we can maybe ask WOULD that Bombardment had taken out the Entire Planet?
From David's notes and Experiments he had discovered various Organic Life in which he conducted Experiments on and used Traits of to Perfect his Creation.
There was NO signs of Life in the Vicinity of where the Covenant Ship had landed, but we cant Rule-Out any Life say 50 Miles, 100 or 500 Miles away..
We dont know what the Half-Life of the Black Goo is, we could assume from Prometheus that all Native Life would either break down into nothing, or become Hybrids with Xenomorph like Traits. But we DONT see that in Alien Covenant, apart from the Spores/Neomorph which appear to be located around the Stream/Brook that runs down the Mountain Range.
I would say Planet 4 has NO effects remaining and LIFE could survive on Planet 4 as long as it does-not encounter the Spores or those Eggs.
IF a Organism was alive, lets say for instance one of the Neomorphs (but seems the other was killed in the Wheat Field) then the Bodies of the Fallen Crew of the Covenant could provide a Food Source.
It would be interesting to see how AWARE the Engineers when they return are to Davids Eggs or indeed worse for them the SPORES... or any Human Mission that would be sent out to Planet 4 for that matter.
Does a Neomorph Procreate? and HOW? thats something interesting to Ponder.
Regarding Planet 4 we also have to ask for such a Large World then WHY did it appear all the Engineers were based in ONE City? The Answer to that could be as Simple as PARADISE... aka Garden of Eden. A Place where the Cradle of Creation came from, a Place were in Biblical Context Adam and Eve were contained within the Confines of the Garden in Paradise.
So its likely those Engineers by Choice/Due to their Religion/Culture are Confined to Living in this ONE location or by the Orders of whoever is above the Engineers in the Hierarchy. Paradise is also a place that only a selected few are deemed Worthy to Dwell, i have more on this but it would be completely off Topic and give insight into the Engineers in context to Creators and Gardeners of Space and NOT purely beings who Create Horrific Bio-Weapons.
Here is a Snippet
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Sometimes, in order to create, one must first destroy. This was the Engineer's motivation as told to us by David. I'm sure the goo would easily rub out all fauna on a planet. As we know, it is fiendishly clever.
And I suppose the Neomorphs could procreate. Why not? It all adds to the crushing devastation of a planet's native life.
But... the Engineers are creators at the end of the day and they would surely have a means of making a sterilised planet safe again at some point. Goo means death and destruction. What comes afterwards is part of the Engineers' grand plan for "creation". I don't believe this is the same thing as David's idea of creation. He's just a twisted amoral robot who hates his creators.
Wouldn't it be nice to know exactly what the Engineers had in mind for the long term prospects for Earth?
Regarding the relatively small number of Engineers on Planet 4, perhaps this is just one world of very many that they inhabit. We humans haven't learned yet that trashing our world and reproducing like ants is a super bad idea. An ancient race like the Engineers would likely see great merit in keeping the numbers down in paradise.
There are obvious parallels with Engineer society and religious cults and ceremonies. When you know all there is to know scientifically, it might be the done thing to live a spiritual existence, rather like a monk.
Then again, who else is out there to complicate matters?
Personally, I like to think that the Space Jockey is an entirely separate race, perhaps the progenitors of the Engineers. The Engineers revere them and go so far as to emulate their form with their peculiar armoured suits. Perhaps the Engineers' greatest tragedy is that their meddling with nature killed one of their idols on LV426...
;) I see your insight, this reflects that Image i Posted Last, and it exactly what i was going to bring up.
Firstly for Ridley Scott to say this Bio-Weapon is something that they use to Clean Worlds so they then can Re-Use the said Worlds must indicate the Engineers Bio-Weapon has a Certain Half-Life or they have means to Nullify the Weapon so as that they can then use the World for Re-Seeding.
HERE is the Problem!
If we assume and look at Prometheus Clues, and Alien Engineers as far as Sacrificial Goo/Scarabs and Urn Goo/Scarabs then its clear that the Sacrificial Goo/Scarabs will break down and consume the DNA/Traits of a Organism and then this is then PASSED onto other Life to Evolve it into a Hybrid.
So if those Urns contain Engineer DNA, then a Bombardment would kind of RE-START the Creation Cycle as Life Would be Destroyed and New Life Created from this. A Problem with this would be to ask does any Intelligent Life-form that are Mutated by the Black Goo, still retain a lot of the Memory/Intelligence from prior?
So if Mankind would be Mutated to Engineer Hybrids, then would these Humanoids have the Knowledge and Memory that made them behave in ways the Engineers felt was a risk?
Alien Covenant showed the Black Goo could be Programed in a Different way, as those Engineers were NOT Evolved, the Pathogen just attacked their Molecular Structure and Calcified them.
So maybe the Goo can be Programed to Attack Certain Genomes... so say it could be Programed to only effect lets say Primates/Humanoids and Kill them... but not affect other Life? What a more Perfect World Cleaning Tool this would make?
Regarding Planet 4... indeed i wonder if this is the Gene-Pool the Engineers take Sacrifices from to Seed Worlds. If we look at the Scarabs from Alien Engineers, and assume the Sacrificial Goo could break down a ENGINEER and then Store this New Material/Pathogen into Urns, then would NOT dropping those Engineer DNA Urns be a more EVOLVED Seeding Method than the Drop a Lone Engineer off to a World to Drink from a CUP?
The Engineers chosen for this Ritual would see this as a Great Honor, their Sacrifice allows them to be Immortalized in both their Genetic Material would Create New Life, but they also then have MONUMENTS (Statues) Erected in the City Plaza in Honor of their ACT!
To me this makes PERFECT sense.....
But how does those Experiments come into play? The LV-223 Engineers and Ridley Scotts comments about AI (Replicants) and how those Planet 4 Engineers are the Originals seems to be the Answer in Part.
I will cover this latter... but suffice to say, WHY would the Engineers spend over 35'000 years experimenting with Horrific Weapons to then wait until a certain time to then Unleash them on Earth... while showing us MAPS to this place over the course of many Thousands of years.
The way i look at LV-223 was a Nursery/Greenhouse to Test and Evolve their Creations (NOT Xenomorphs) but at some-point something happened that lead to them starting to see the Perfection in such Experiments.
The only Problem with these kinds of ideas, is they STEER away from ALIEN as far as being about the Xenomorph or Similar... but that seemed to be the Intention of the Prequels anyway before the U-TURN in Alien Covenant.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
The Jordan family travel in a Daihotai Tractor which can travel up to 150 km/h (the terrain probably won’t allow such a speed though). According to the novel “Alien: River of Pain”, the Derelict is about 4 hours’ journey away from Hadley’s Hope. Let’s say they travel at a speed of 50 km/h, then the Derelict would be about 200 km away. That would probably suffice for the Derelict and the eggs to still be there, intact and waiting . . .
I think a thing to remember is those working on the Movies dont really CARE about continuity or put much thought into how to bring about intended Plots.
So Regardless if the Derelict is 200KM, 100KM, or 10KM and the Blast was the Size of Nebraska, IF they decide they want to make another movie to explore the Derelict then it would not matter as they would just show us the SHIP had Survived the Destruction of Hadleys Hope.
At the Moment we could Ponder that it is maybe Destroyed, because the Company (W-Y) pursued Ripley and (USM) then waited 200 years to Clone her.
But it could be Buried.... and Discovered again.
IF they want to make another ALIEN movie and they want a SIMPLE Plot to bring back the Classic Xenomorph or Aliens Xenomorph, then the Derelict is a MASSIVE Plot Convenience.
So potentially we cant rule out the Derelict had survived, and IF they bring out another ALIENS like movie which i think down the road (5-10 years) they would, then its likely even IF this Movie is not about Ripley, that they would Recover the Derelict Once More.
Its nice that some of us are trying to work out HOW the Ship would be effected, and throwing in the IDEA of a Radioactive/Mutated Cargo but if they decided to bring back the Derelict i would not be surprised it would be INTACT and Cargo as in ALIENS.
I think they would have to also explain away WHY they had not obtained any Xenomorph or Related from LV-223, Planet 4 and Origae-6 by the time we are at ALIEN. As these would surely Conflict with the Companies Pursuit of Hadleys Hope, then Ripley.
IF these Places are explained as Yielding NO Xenomorphs then they need to keep the DERELICT as that Plot Convenience to bring back the Xenomorph in Future.
So i feel we have NOT seen the Derelict for the Last Time, even if we DONT Finish the Prequels, then i think we would see the Derelict Resurrected at some point.
Maybe Sooner than Later if we see Cameron Successfully get the Support of Disney to give us Blomkamps Alien 5 which i would NOT mind provided they DROP the Ripley and Bring Back the Gang Characters...
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Concerning the Derelict and the eggs on LV-426 (canon or not):
According to “Alien: River of Pain” (The novel is about what happened to the settlers of Hadley’s Hope colony), the company (W-Y) knew that The USCSS Nostromo picked up a signal and investigated the source but they didn’t know exactly from where the signal came (just somewhere near Calpamos). “The Nostromo Mystery” was the vanishing of the ship in 2122.
In 2137, the crew of The Anesidora find the flight recorder of The Nostromo and eventually the Derelict on LV-426. Once there they turn off the beacon. The captain’s wife is infected and taken to Sevastopol station where a Xenomorph is let loose and leads to the destruction of the space station.
In 2159, Hadley’s Hope Colony is established and according to “Alien: River of Pain” the secret mission (which only the science department knows about) is getting a xenomorph. The company knows that the source of the beacon that the Nostromo intercepted is somewhere near Calpamos.
The beacon on the Derelict is turned off and the climate and weather make LV-426 very difficult to explore. The Ilium mountains block the Derelict from technical detection. The atmosphere processors are built and in 2173 “Newt” is born. In 2179, Burke gets the coordinates from Ripley and the Jordan family go “treasure hunting” which eventually leads to the xenomorph infestation and the destruction of Hadley’s Hope.
However, the explosion of the atmosphere processor might not have destroyed the Derelict and the eggs since they are far away from the colony and protected by the Ilium Range. So, the table is set for Blomkamp . . .
"So, the table is set for Blomkamp"
Absolutely as far as IF the Eggs are there regardless if David Created them, the Engineers or Ripleys Grandmother ;) (joke by the way).
I context to the Derelict Cargo that was there in 2122, then indeed after 2179 we cant rule out the Derelict as being Salvageable, if the Studio want to make a New Movie they would choose this route anyway (likely) and as LV-426 never went BANG like the Death Star, then its viable the Derelict can be Salvaged.
I would be open to Blomkamps Ideas baring in mind they originally NEVER had Ripley and the Gang.. i think bringing the Gang Back and so that ALIEN 3 does-not exist and Alien R to a extent (work that around a Blomkamps Alien 3) would be a MISTAKE and just a Nostalgia Trip for Fans who Lament for how Alien 3 killed them off.
New Alien Movie... recover Derelict.... WHY NOT!
Bring back Ripley and the Gang.... No Thanks!
UNLESS.... they do a Ripley Movie that is a Alien 5 thats set after Alien Resurrection. I had a idea for this well TWO and one was from years ago, the other a variation of it that would BRING Back just Newt (Clone) from those killed in Alien 3 but with a Twist that well ALIENS Fans would maybe not like. (would also have Ripley of course and a way around her AGE Difference).
Alien: Vanguard was what it was to be but i have been Unwell recently and busy and i never got time to post my idea on here as intended for Alien Day.. i hope to post it in the next 7 days.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
BigDave I hope you feel better now and lookong forward to reading the Alien: Vanguard (on a new topic).
"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"
To help bring the thread back on topic,
We have three options...
#1 - The eggs remain undamaged.
#2 - The eggs have been destroyed.
#3 - The eggs remain, but are damaged.
Option one doesn't really change anything and contradicts Alien: Resurrection, while option two leaves us dead in the water. Option three, however, gives us something to work with, from a creative standpoint...
Alien 3 was set immediately after Aliens, which was set in 2179, so lets put a new movie 30 years later, which would be 2209. LV-426 is now a Weyland-Yutani research and development outpost, guarded by an executive branch of the colonial marines. The marines are there in case of emergency and to keep out the salvagers, who are stripping what remains of Hadley's Hope for scrap.
Inside the outpost, WY has finally gotten their prize - the derelict Juggernaut and its cargo of thousands of Xenomorph eggs. Sadly for WY, however, it seems all of the eggs have been corrupted by radiation, with most Chestbursters unable to birth themselves...
Imagine, like in Alien: Ressurection, a prisoner bound and unconscious with an open egg before them. They wake, screaming in agony before falling silent, their head lulling as blood soaks their chest, and then the recognizable "jutting out" of the ribs, but it is not as pronounced as we have come to expect. The prisoners bloodied chest then begins to smoke and sizzle, a hole slowly appearing and growing, eaten away by the molecular acid. Then from the hole, a Chestbursters head hangs, dead; the interior organs of its head visible from an open wound.
Another scene of interest could be an autopsy on the Space Jockey, to reveal that he is millions of years old and most definitely not an Engineer - raising the questions of who/what was this creature and are there anymore, similar vessels out there yet to be discovered.
We then show WY being more attentive to the Xenomorph, surgically removing them from hosts and producing somewhat stabler specimens, though lo-and-behold, even these specimens are corrupted and of no use to them. This could be where it is revealed why they desire the organism so much - the technology of reprogrammable cellular nano particles AKA the black pathogen, which is in part what the Xenomorph is composed of. But the radiation on LV-426 has corrupted everything at a cellular level, with the cells gradually breaking apart.
Inevitably the stabler specimens, of which there is only a handful, escape and all hell breaks loose. But these specimens are not the ones encountered by Hadley's Hope, Fiorina 161, or (in 200 years time) the USM Auriga - the royal specimens stored in the Juggernauts arms were depleted when Hadley's Hope fell, with the Queen producing subsequent eggs for that colony, and all of which were then destroyed in the detonation of the atmosphere processor. The specimens WY have been attempting to harvest are from the Juggernauts cargo hold, discovered by the USCSS Nostromo in 2122, and are a different, non-eusocial variant, that is much more aggressive and intelligent, and capable of siring their own young by transforming a host into an egg.
Egg-morphings back baby...
From there you move away from the exposition and freak show to the Aliens getting loose. But by having the Xenomorphs cutting the power and plunging the facility into darkness and having the Xenomorphs use said darkness to stealthily incapacitate and capture the WY executives, scientists, Colonial Marines and inevitably the salvagers - AKA the aesthetic of Aliens done as a dark horror movie a la Alien.
"eaten away by the molecular acid. Then from the hole, a Chestbursters head hangs, dead"
I think thats a interesting addition that we Have-Not seen before, even if something like this was shown as you explained (Defective, Failed Chest Busters) or someone had attempted to Abort/Kill the Process via taking some kind of Chemical that Causes a Chest Burster to attempt to escape prematurely while dying.. A scene where we see Acid Burn a Hole in the Host and a Partially Formed or Partially Dissolved Chest Buster pushes its way through... something we have yet to see in the Franchise ;)
I think it would be interesting to see the EGG MORPH, we did see it in Alien Directors Cut, but it would interesting to see this again (this time to completion). I suppose using the 1979 Xenomorph for this would indicate a different Procreation to each of the different Xenomorphs we have seen, you would have to then wonder what kind of Procreation does the Runner from Alien 3 have?
The Rediscovery of the Derelict would also allow us to introduce a different kind of Xenomorph too, because having the idea that the ALIENS and ALIEN Eggs are different Cargo Holds sounds viable, and its even what is indicated from ALIEN: ENGINEERS (Prometheus early draft) where there was 8 Different Cargo Holds/Xenomorph Variants. We could ponder what other kinds of Twist on Procreation could they have?
The Revelation of the Space Jockey could work, as we never knew how old it was prior to Alien Covenant (which has not concluded the prequels so the Space Jockey is open for debate). The Prometheus Engineer Suits lacked the same Color so they was either Different, or the Space Jockey looked like it had been DEAD a lot more than the 2000 years that the Engineers were.
You would have to be careful how you handle that though, and you would have to maybe indicate more clues to David's Xenomorphs not being those on the Derelict, but a conclusion of merely the Space Jockey had been DEAD for 10'000, 100'000 or MUCH longer would mean its likely the Eggs were not Davids but it would leave it open for some to Speculate that David takes his Eggs to that Ship.
But of course any reveal that this Ancient Race had created those Eggs a LONG LONG time prior would do the trick... as far as the Space Jockey the Options would likely have to be that it is some kind of Bio-Mechanical Being just as the Xenomorph was (also like Sil from Species), or that it is a Bio-Mechanical Suit but the Bi-Pedal Occupant is NOT so Human looking, but also regardless we could introduce a 10ft Species the Difference to ALIEN could then be put down to "it grew out of the chair" a 12 Foot Space Jockey would NOT need to use that explanation though as the Space Jockey was likely about 12-15ft Max.
I think having a Movie that has the Balance of Action and Horror would be ideal, you would also have to try and get some of the background of Prometheus in it, but as a NONE Prequel (well that does not follow on from Prometheus/David) then i guess you dont have to incorporate much Philosophy/Creation Elements etc. I think including information on or even have Engineers in the Movie would get Prometheus Fans on board.
Thanks ;) i will get to it as soon as possible.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think it’s an interesting idea, Gavin, which would make a captivating film. It’s important to get interesting characters. It would be possible to get Ripley, Newt and Hicks (the gang) back if Alien 3 and Alien: Resurrection were just bad dreams (Ripley wakes up in the med bay on Gateway once more). But perhaps it would be best to leave them out of it?
I hope you are well enough to conclude Alien: Vanguard, BigDave? It’ll be interesting!
I will have to get to work on making that post chli ;) (not sure the ALIENS Fans gonna like it though LOL)
Regarding a Bring the Gang back... maybe if they have some plausible Explanation for how we have TWO Alternative Alien 3 Time-Lines, i am not sure the Destruciton of Hadleys Hope would be enough to Cause a Tear in Time/Space... so the alternative FORK in the Road trick would have to be applied... where Fans can choose which route they prefer or maybe like the both to Co-Exist.
My concerns with this or even a explanation to it (like Tear in Space) would be that where would Disney then Stop? Lets make a Alternative Prometheus? Remake ALIEN in a Cameron Style?
IF we do get a Reboot of ALIEN 3 for Nostalgia what if the movie SUCKS? or does not do well, it could Damage the Franchise... Over the years we have seen some reaction to Nostalgia.. Reboot Total Recall, Fans not happy, then some thinking we should get a Total Recall 2 thats a Sequel to the First Movie (Bring Arnie Back). Then look at Robocop Reboot, now its a (Blomkamp) lets make a Direct Sequel to the Original with same Actors from the 80's, Ghostbusters reaction... we need a Direct Sequel to Ghost Busters 2 (bring the Gang Back), Instead of learning from the Reboot Mistakes and IMPROVE on it with a Sequel..
As going for the Nostalgia bring Gang Back options may work but if they also suck then they leave Said Franchises a bit Dead in the Water!
I am looking forwards to a Masters of the Universe Reboot... wonder if that sucks and people be like bring back Dolph Lundgren LOL looks like they was going for a very Dark Version that would appease to the Original Fans (Cartoon Series) but offer a Grown Up (Dark) Version now that those Fans would be in their 30s+.. But more likely we get a Re-Introduction to the Franchise for a NEW Wave of 8-13 year Olds!
PS Sorry for going Off-Topic.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
In regards to the OT...
I watched ALIENS Last Night the Special Edition and i struggle to see the Rover do more than 40KPH, all shots of it appeared to be more like 20KPH and we cant work out HOW-LONG the Journey for the Jordons was... it appears to be NO-MORE than a Few Hours Each way!
But Bishop mentions the Reactor would deliver a Blast Radius of 30KM and be the Equivalent of a 40MT Blast.
Taking that into ACCOUNT if the Derelict was located 20KM Away from Hadleys Hope then it is possible it would not suffer any Major Damage. If this Distance was 40KM then i would say the Derelict would have a Good Chance the Cargo could be Salvageable.
The Derelict could have been Buried from debris and dust following the Shock-wave or the Blast could have triggered some Seismic/Volcanic Activity that could have buried the Derelict.
so Regardless of WHO Created the Xenomorph, the OT is about IF the Cargo could remain after the events of ALIENS (forgive me if this is not the OT point), and as far as that goes.... then i think YES its very plausible the Derelict could be SALVAGED.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I agree, BigDave, that it would be acceptable that the Derelict and the eggs made it. A return to LV-426 would be nostalgic for fans. I can picture a spaceship settling down on the windswept surface of LV-426, a ramp is lowered and out come people in space suits, and an excavator . . .
It would be fitting also if Scott concludes his saga and ends up on LV-426 with the fateful cargo . . .
Thought this is the BETTER Topic to place this...
I had watched Alien in Detail Last Night... and looked at some Images on the Internet to do some Calculations, these are mainly based on the Height however.... but when people talk about the Cargo Hold Size they refer mainly to its Height and how it WONT fit UNDER the Derelict.
The Image i will post NEXT is based off the Set Prop (nearly completed) the Descending Kane to the Cargo Hold, the Long Shot of when the Crew Climb up into the Pilot Chamber, and a Image of them Entering the Derelicts Rear Entrance Holes.
They are Scaled with a Margin of Error of up to 10%
There will be a some Inconsistency/Errors but i think we are in a Good Margin of Error, and these Potential Errors arise from the Production Team based on.
*Using Child Actors for the Long Shots in the Pilot Room, then Adults for Close Up Shots... the Calculations are based on the Distant Shots.
*Matt Painting for the Decent, with Angles that are Harder to Gauge and Scale that MAY-NOT be accurate to the Closer Shots of Kane, including when he reaches the Platform he eventually Falls Off.
*Entering of the Derelict Set, that is a bit Different to the Distant Shots Prop.... (Mainly Rocks Positions and Height prior to the Entrance).
But i think it gives a Good Estimate..
So it would appear the DERELICT would have to be 1.5X the Height in order to FIT the Cargo Hold.
Now some could CLAIM that using my Image you COULD have Potentially got the Cargo Hold and Pilot Room inside... HOWEVER... this would IGNORE that we are NOT being shown the FULL ROOM.. The Pilot Room and Egg Chamber used the SAME SET for the Close Ups...
The SET only went so HIGH and we can see with the Egg Cargo Distant Descending Shot that the SET is CUT off to about HALF the Height of the Egg Chamber.
The Walls of the SET do have a Curve and so if we Consider this like a FISHBOWL then we only see about 50-60% of its Height, and so the Pilot Room likely also is showing 50-60% and if we look where i PLACED the Pilot Room, it Fits the Curvature of the Hull, and Positioned about the Right Place to HOW the Nostromo Crew Entered and began to WALK through the Tunnels that was going UP-HILL and then Climb Up a Area to arrive at the Pilot Room.
I would assume where i placed the FLOOR between the Cargo Hold and Pilot Room to be Accurate as far as a Margin of Moving it up or down by up to 15% Max.
IF my image is Pretty Accurate then what this shows is its NOT so much a MASSIVE Oversight if they try and Convince us its part of the Ship.
It could leave it OPEN to have a Separate Underground Silo... but IF the Ship only needed to be 1.5% Higher then i think the BEST explanation would be the Detachable Cargo Hold that is DROPPED onto Worlds and Collected Again Theory that i had ;)
Compared the Cargo Hold with the Scale i Calculated and Silly Me..... the CARGO HOLD would be a PERFECT FIT for the Derelict...... on its OWN... leaving NO SPACE for the Pilot Room though.... ;)
Calculating the DEPTH of the Cargo Hold as FAR as WALL TO WALL (not Height) is not so HARD... i have YET to give this a Detailed Go though... i think it MAY NOT FIT! Because i ASSUME the SHOT we got indicates The Cargo Hold Circles around the Under Part of the Pilot Chair and so we ONLY see a SECTION of the Cargo Hold.
The WIDTH would be the Difficult Dimension to Work Out, as the Descending Shot, is shown from a Angle where it Snakes off in the Distance... i DOUBT this would FIT in the Derelict.... Unless its Designed how i had Assumed in a Previous Image Before... then i think the Derelict would need to be 1.5X its Size to Accommodate that.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
In the second image you posted, I think you need to move the yellow line (base of Derelict) down a fraction and then move the red line (bottom of the cargo hold) up to the yellow line, as in my opinion, I believe the pilot's chamber is the small dome atop the derelict. Then I think you'll find the cargo hold does, in fact, fit within the vessel.
I agree its HARD to work out the BOTTOM of the Derelict as it its Obscured by the Rocks and so we dont know how much is Buried...
The Pilot Chamber would be under the DOME but i feel the Pilot Chamber Set is only about 60% of the Actual Pilot Room, i made a Image to Compared with HR Gigers Concept of the Pilot Room, and also bare in mind the Actual Prop SET they had Recycled the Egg Chamber which in that instance only showed about 50% of the Egg Chambers Height.
This does not RULE-OUT a Buried part of the Derelict.
The ABOVE Image is only just ROUGH, but it is to show that IF we was to Explore the Derelict then having its shown (or the Same Model of Ship) as having another Part of the Ship that is Partially Buried and Obscured by the Rock, taking into account the Dimensions i attempted to Work Out, then i think its VERY PLAUSIBLE the Derelict could have some PART of it that became Buried a say 50-60ft of it.
However..... i think as ABOVE that some kind of Detachable Cargo Hold would make more Sense as FAR as Storage and Deployment of a Deadly Bio Weapon.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
As I see it, Dallas, Kane, and Lambert enter the middle (or left), vaginal entrance by just walking on the rocky ground. So the opening is quite close to the ground. Then, as far as we can see in the movie, they walk straight on until Kane sees that he can climb up on a shelf (perhaps two metres up). When they have climbed up, they are next to the Space Jockey. This would mean that they are, say, 6 metres from the ground. But as Kane is lowered through the hole, they need a winch and a very long rope and you can see that he is lowered down into a huge cave (which Kane thinks it is). I would guess that he is lowered down at least 30 metres (which would be under the Derelict).
We cannot with absolute certainty claim that every step we saw Dallas, Kane, and Lambert take while within the derelict is every step they will have actually taken. This technique is commonly used, such as showing someone depart for and then arrive at their destination, with the journey in between either edited or omitted entirely.
IMO, and it is my opinion only I believe you have the scale somewhat wrong, here is the same picture of the derelict prop you have used but with where I believe the space Jockey is, and its approximate size in relation to the vessel...
A problem is the vastness of the "cargo hold". When Kane is lowered down into it, it looks more like a huge cave. In your picture, Gavin, with the Space Jockey very high up, everything under it would be the "cargo hold". All three openings would lead into the "cargo hold".
...or a series of corridors and a shaft adjacent to the cargo hold, leading to the pilot's chamber atop the cargo hold.
The below images may help with scale in regards to the pilot's chair and the recess it resides in.
The Prometheus Crew entering into the pilot's chamber below is almost level with the openings on the side of the juggernaut. This is a different ship but the internal layout may be the same.
“Out of breath again he paused in his descent to run a check of his suit instrumentation. ‘Interesting,’ he said into his pickup. ‘I’m below ground level’.”
Alien novelization (1979), page 80.
I agree and in the novelization, there is no ascension after they enter the Derelict. The pilot room is huge with a high ceiling and as you point out, there must also be room for the pilot chair to be lowered down.
In the novelization, Kane is lowered down with a cable and there is first a very long hole that he descends through. Then, he enters the huge open space and they argue whether it's part of the ship or something else under it (a cave or a silo).
If there is a bulge on the Derelict going under ground level, then there must be a hole in the ground which fits it (but I don't think we see that kind of bulge on any juggernauts). So the answer must be that there is a cave or a silo under the Derelict (but with the same kind of esthetics).
But, of course, we have to take the problem of making the film into account and the history of different scripts etc . . .
Compelling evidence, that could sway me back to the belief that the derelict was docked atop a subterranean structure similar to the domes on LV-223, but first, an observation for everyone to explain based on the images in your post...
The chair doesn't fit underneath the pilot's chamber.
I think its a little difficult to come to a EXACT Measurement of the Derelict because we have the Following.
*Large (ish) External Prop of the Derelict
*Larger Outdoor Set of the Entrance
*Internal Set of the Pilot Chamber (does not show full shot)
*Internal close up set of the Egg Hold (same as Pilot Room)
*Matt Painting used for the Descent into the Cargo Hold.
Each shot the Scale is NOT really Uniform..
The above Image shows Little Figurines intended to show the Scale which would put the Derelict about the 155ft Height Mark, but if we go by how BIG the Nostromo Crew where compared to the Entrances then we get a Height of 120ft Approx. The Debate about SCALE and so IF the Cargo Hold Fits really RESTS down to TWO Shots, and they are.... The Crew Entering the SHIP and the shot of Kane Descending. You cant really use the Pilot Room shots as we get TWO Scales... the First Shots (used Child Actors) and the Close Up Shots (Adult Actors) so thats a Scale Change of 40-50%
As far as HOW the Entered, as Gavin pointed out we cant 100% Gauge how FAR the Walk was until they Climbed Up into the Pilot Chamber.... and also it looked like for a Part of the Entrance it was on a Incline, before it Straightened out a bit... then they Climbed up.
Its also difficult to use the Schematic of the Juggernaught as they are TWO different Ships as far as Dimensions go, i will do a Image Next if we Accept its the same Layout as the Juggernaught.
I have also Gavin taken the Image you did, and Scaled a SHOT from the Movie to the Same Size and Position and then Scaled the Egg Cargo Shot to the Same Scale.
Its HARD to really Gauge the True Size as the Best Comparison we could do is SCALE the Egg Chambers Kane and the Images of Dallas, Lambert and Kane as they ENTER the Derelict and Scale them to the Same Size. And match them to same Scale with the Space Jockey Scene Shot.
As for the Bulkspace between Floors i have watched ALIEN again and to me it has to be between 1.5M and 3M
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Looking at the Pilot Chair in Prometheus i think it would FIT
The Scale i did was to compare to the Tunnel Height leading up to the Pilot Room and Scaled the Schematic of the Chair to it... NOW the True Chair may have a Slightly Different Scale, or if its accurate the SCALE i have USED could be a bit too Large so the Chair could be a bit Smaller than i had shown.
In either case i think its Highly Likely the Chair can FIT under the Pilot Room... But there is NO WAY the Cargo Hold in ALIEN can FIT under the Juggernaught Pilot Room ;)
Back to the Derelict..... if we go for a Underground Cargo Hold then this Cargo Hold would ONLY be as TALL as the Derelict approx. The other OPTION as i mentioned before is if the Derelict has a PART of it that is Buried and it is SHOWN that this is another 60ft, or even 40ft Min then we can Suspend our Disbelief a little.
I said this on another Topic...
If this is a Bio-Weapon and its PART of the Ship then HOW do they Deploy it? Bounce the Eggs?
Manually Take them outside? or do they have a Device for that? or is it a Suicide Mission where the Pilot Remains wit the Ship and waits for some Inhabitants of the World to come and Wonder on the Ship and make it to the Cargo Hold?
If we assume the Ship is Docked at a Underground Egg Silo, then its a case of HOW do they get the Eggs to and from that Place? Storage would not be a Problem if the Derelict is like the Juggernaught as we can then assume the Eggs are collected from the Underground Silo and Stored in Cargo Holds Located connected to the Pilot Room and in the ARM Sections. (like the Juggernaught appears to have).
I still think a Detachable Cargo Hold would be the Best Option to explain it and make sense as a SAFE Weapon to Deploy.
Derelict to Scale of SHOTS of Lambert, Dallas and Kane as they Enter the Derelict, and also the Pilot Chamber and Kane as he is Lowered into the Egg Chamber.
Looking at this i would say the Derelict needed about another 30-60ft (Depends on TOTAL Height of the Pilot Room) or our Humans in Each Shot need to be about 4ft!
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Looking at the Pilot Chair in Prometheus i think it would FIT
This is already contrary to Alien: Covenant.
You forgot about one important thing. In AC, when David bombards Engineers (or Covenant crew enters the ship) - the bomb hatch is also located in the center of the ship. Directly under the control cabin. And the bomb hatch is also pretty large compartment. On Juggernaut hologram in Prometheus just no place for this compartment. It is not there at all!
So, a logical conclusion suggests itself. The Juggernauts in Prometheus and AC have different structures, compartments and sizes. If so, then the Juggernaut and Derelict may also have different parameters. Therefore, you cannot use the sizes, holograms and scheme of Juggernaut from Prometheus to explain the structure of the Derelict. They are different.
A L I E N
The matte painting you kindly offered from the movie is depicting a huge subterranean area which bends to the left and then bends to the right before finally swinging to the left. If for instance, you consider the number of ovoids there are from left to right it would make the width of the area between 75 and 100 metres.
P R O M E T H E U S
As you know from the Making of Prometheus documentary artistic licence was applied to the scale of the dead pilot, he is 8 feet tall and the craft although identical visually is smaller. The depth and height of the craft are 27 metres with the additional circular detail and dome taking us to 30 metres. To give some context you could place 4 1/2 Airbus A 380's on top of each other inside the craft.
One of the magical elements of cinema is making a space look bigger than you imagine it. In that context, the entire Pilot Chamber/Ampule Room in P R OM E T H E U S was built on the 007 Stage at Pinewood which is 12 to 15 metres high. So the ampule room and bridge are with a CGI canopy for the latter no more than 18 metres high. Anyone who has been in a room 18 metres high will know that feels huge for a person at less 2 metres high.
None of this had anything to do with Prometheus: The Furious Gods where in my original very long forward I explain how I take design elements of all three craft (A/P/AC) and blend them for key storytelling elements.
The thousands of Eggs look like they're in a huge silo and to me, that is what the Matte Painting conveys.
PS The reveal of the Gantry in Prometheus was a fabulous visual coup of Ridleys to say "see this is where the derelict and its pilot comes from" but it lacks ergonomic logic but hey this is entertainment.
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