I think to some degree its a Shame there is a LOT of Dislike in regards to David...
Ridley Scott suggesting the Next movie would NOT be about the Xenomorph, but about AI (could mean a Intelligent Being that is Created/Engineered, and NOT Robots).
I know people was Disappointed at the Lack of HR Giger Aesthetic in Prometheus, and more disappointed by the Further Lack of it in Alien Covenant.
The HR Giger Aesthetic is something that played a major role in ALIEN it gave us our Xenomorph, the Derelict etc..
So when Pondering WHAT KIND of a World David would create, the Scope could be there to be more than just about Creating a AI!
Sometimes to Create One Must First Destroy!
We could take that as the Black Goo would have Created Something from our Destruction, at the time of Prometheus we could assume this would had been Organisms that Carried Xenomorph DNA (Which the Fire and Stone Comics had shown with LV-223) and we see that David had been experimenting a lot on Planet 4 to obtain his Xenomorph.
Ridley Scott claimed the Next movie would NOT be about the Xenomorph, and that it would be about a AI, which maybe could mean Engineering of another Creation, maybe those Human Embryo's as i speculated in TWO Topics.
With some Disappointed the First TWO movies were not ALIEN enough, certainly in terms of compared to ALIEN and i dont mean just Xenomorphs... I think a number of Fans would have expected a ALIEN Prequel to end up taking us to a ALIEN PRIME.. kind of Xenomorph Home-world and Ridley Scott had intended similar with a sequel to ALIEN which he never got to make.
HR Giger is what made the Franchise very ALIEN...
So we have David who is OFF to what we can assume is Origae-6, now this World would have been somewhat a ideal New Eden for the Covenant Colonist, which means it would have to have LIFE...
David had been playing Dr. Moreau on Planet 4, with those Experiments in the Lab... While as a Consequence of Eradicating the Engineer Threat Planet 4 become infected and the Spores were a Result of this.
On a World that has NO THREAT like the Engineers, then David would not need to Bombard the Whole Planet, and could be Free to just Experiment on Organisms as he pleases with the Black Goo and contain the Experiments as opposed to Infect the Entire Planet.
so while we can assume David could Engineer a Humanoid from the Embryos, would he by-pass Experiments on the other Colonist who are ALL Safely Shut Away in Cryo-sleep? Even if he experiments on the Embryos how many experiments would he have to do in order to OBTAIN his End Product?
Creating a Enhanced Human Race as speculated before, is one thing we can see, but would there be many Failed or In-Perfect Results along the way?
Would he also want to CREATE/EVOLVE the Planets Native Life-Forms? This cant be RULED out as some of the Concept Art for Alien: Paradise/Lost had shown Mutated Hybrid Organisms, included a Pet Dog, and Nasty Little Meerkat like Creatures.
So its possible David could take the Planets Life, and try to Create his OWN from it, or Evolve it..... so we could see him PLAY that Dr. Moreau all over again...
However.... lets imagine this with the Freedom to incorporate HR Gigers Aesthetic... If we look at a lot of HR Gigers Work, he certainly has been playing a Very Surreal Bio-Mechanical Dr. Moreau Certainly within his Mind!
What if HR Giger got to play a Real Life Dr. Moreau what if HR Giger had Access to the Black Goo?
You could certainly imagine a Infinite Number of Experiments, Torture on Life-Forms to create the Various HR Giger Artworks he had persevered within his MIND!
What happens when these get out of Control... or after Engineers or Humans arrive and leads to some Contamination that then Spreads a HR Giger Aesthetic over a World!
I think it would be interesting if we saw Oriage-6 Evolve from a Earth Like World upon Arrival of David, until all that remains is a VERY HR Giger ALIEN World by the time Davids Plans and World goes to POT!
Set Over TWO Movies the 2nd part by the 2nd Act or 3rd could see the Engineers See Potential in what they find and attempt to take something to LV-223 to Experiment on and Improve..... and we all KNOW how that ends for the Space Jockey ;)
I will add some Giger Works... at a latter point, but there is so much scope to his ART, that depicts Experimentation, certainly a lot about various Creations, and a lot about Females being used/implied in the use to maybe obtain such Horrors.
I would love to see either David play the Dr. Moreau again and see a number of HR Giger Inspired things going on, or if not David then i would like to see him Create some things and then see the Engineers take these and play the HR Giger Dr. Moreau on LV-223.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Actually both of them seem to be alien hybrids of Eddie of Iron Maiden. I knew they looked so familiar.
"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"
dk it seems it has just been facehugged
"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"
“Some are Wishfully thinking David does-not create the Xenomorph... maybe this can be changed.”
I hope so, at least they can try to not make it worse than it already is, that could be one step in a better direction. They could have him in a small portion of the movie but not make it about him, that is a difference. Having it about him is the problem not that he is in it at all because he was interesting in Prometheus.
About what kind of life that he wants to make could work as long as he is not the creator of the original Xeno and as long that he is not the movie so to speak. More HR Giger aesthetics could be nice which is not to say that all of the movie needs to be built on that but it could be a part. Look at how Tim Burton makes his things, dark and that.
“Tampering with LIFE that would imprint some Traits of the Xenomorph could have Dire Consequences. “
That is an interesting idea, a movie based on that is something that I could accept. Get the right story and well made human characters and it could probably be better than both P and AC, which would not be very difficult but anyways.
The worms to Hammerpedes were interesting because it showed what the goo could make. Milburn was stupid but that is another issue, they should have had the scene where he saw something easier before (a worm or what ever it was).
“So what happens when things go to POT!”
Hadley’s hope * 10? (Bigger area) As far as the spores are concerned, I think that was interesting because it showed what the goo could do. That is one of the things that I liked about Covenant.
“We still need some Answers.... and so Discovering a Disabled David to just activate and get some information from like they did with Bishop in Alien 3 is something they could explore....
The LONGER a sequel takes... the more likely this would be Davids Role/Fate!”
I could be OK with that, let it take time. I was alright with how they did with Bishop in Alien 3. The difference is that Bishop was a likable character and David is an asshole.
Seeing how the Engineers would react to the bombing by David would be interesting if they involve that part but don’t have that at the expense of the human characters.
About Xenos, Neos, and that I am fine with new monsters. They could just show the Xeno as a small part of it but then you also have people that are interested in the monster itself even though that is not what I am about when it comes to the movies even though it is interesting to see what they can come up with.
“Maybe there has to be some Compromise?”
Maybe, it got to improve from Covenant which is not a very difficult thing to do.
“For those who DONT want a David movie, well a Aftermath could show what happens when these Beings had Revolted Against David...”
That could be interesting, it depends on the story and characters but if they think it through it might work.
“This would be more interesting if they are NOT your traditional Humans but Enhanced... "
Any of those could work as long as they are well done.
“I feel HOWEVER that most Alien Fans would rather see a incoming Human Ship arrive at a World that would be kind of like a Worse Case than turning up to Planet 4 and coming across the SPORES and Davids Eggs in the Cathedral/Citadel”
The risk is that it would be a repeat of AC, you got to do something else. At the same time AC was different from Prometheus so maybe something else could be done if there is the next movie, that is the story is not very much based on David at all because it would allow more creative freedom.
“Now he could create a variant of the Xenomorph, that would also be a AI... just as the Xenomorph is.”
Maybe, it just seems confusing what he (Scott) says sometimes.
I dont mean exactly the same... i think a combination of both with a different skin tone... No-Eyes look of the 2nd one onto the First One (eye socket dude) then maybe that could be interesting?
I have mentioned this a number of times to your (dont want a David Movie) comments... they are very Valid, because i think the Majority would be in a similar boat to you... They should have gave the Fans a ALIENY movie, that does-not connect to David and Dr Shaw... say they (other Mission/Humans) go to LV-223.
Then leaves David to go off and have his Davids Odyssey Prequels. that DONT connect to ALIEN or the Xenomorph.
Now we are in Direct ALIEN Prequel Territory, Fans are not going to want to SIT THROUGH more than 30 Min of What Lovely World David has Built Plot!
So indeed something more like What Kind of a World has David $£%^$^ UP... may be more fitting!
The Covenant intended to go to Origae-6 as some NEW Start a NEW Eden.... those Colonist Totally Unaware of what happened in Alien Covenant.... any other Secondary Mission to Origae-6 would be expecting to reach a very EARTH like World where the Covenant Colony has been set up.
INSTEAD they Discover HELL...
Again i think Fans would not want to SIT THOUGH a Movie about David... so we have to arrive at a point AFTER this World David had created maybe for Kind Intentions has gone TITS-UP..
Taking into ACCOUNT a lot of Fans Likes/Dislikes i have came up with a ALIEN 5 idea i will post on here at some point over the NEXT 4-7 Days... its a Continuation of Alien Resurrection.
At the same time i have just had a idea for a Alien Covenant 2 that would try and please everyone... which would be a After-Math like movie, that will show David Redeem himself (small role) and will continue with the Themes of Prometheus (Creation, Rebellion and Retribution).
To give the idea away a little.... you see David may want to Create his own Humanity, because in Prometheus he appeared to be Neglected by Mankind, but the Alien Covenant Trailer Song by AURORA i think is very fitting to Davids Journey and he did say to Daniels if we are KIND it would be KIND world.
So David could have intentions of Creating a Paradise for Humans he would Engineer/Perfect... but the Hubris would be in Perfecting these beings... he could Create a Superior Race who REBEL against him... Dethrone him!
We get this via Flash Backs... because we arrive at a incoming Human Ship with more Colonist and Supplies... they arrive at Origae-6 and see the Colony has been set-up but there is a lack of Technology, its like a Middle Aged Settlement...
The incoming Humans Arrive... and they discover there is something DIFFERENT with these other Humans... as Questions Start, we get a Sinister Turn, where the incoming Humans are at the Peril of these other Humanoids.
Some that escape discover David's Corpse.. they Activate Him and he tells them what he did and WHY, and how he regrets it... he WANTS Revenge against his Rebellious Creations and he informs the Surviving Humans about another Creation... he says he has to Unleash his Wolf on his Lambs... and says THIS Beast would be the ONLY defense they would have against the THREAT of these Humanoids...
This is when we can introduce the Xenomorph... which would then infect those Humans, while some escape and the Xenomorphs would go on to KILL those Humanoids David had created... and infect some of them...
As the Human Survivors Escape... as they arrive at their Main Ship, they discover another Ship has arrived a Weyland-Yutani Military/Science Ship...
This can lead to the 2nd Movie or the 3RD act if the Movie idea spans say 2.5hrs
In a Sequel.
This can lead to them going down to clear up the Xenomorphs and Davids other Creations... but reveal a attempt to obtain the Xenomorph but then the Engineers Rock Up!
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I presume it is safe to say that you are a bit obsessive dismissing the central if not the biggest character in the Prometheus and Alien Covenant.
At this point, what you are really doing is ruling out the few semi-feasible ideas floating around. And it is not like there are many of those to choose from and dismiss this, that or the other. Yet here you are, kicking BigDave into fetal position over and over.
Have you put out any possible scenario for future follow-up of your own in any considerable details? Perhaps some particularly interesting aspects or key ideas that you deem worthy pursuing? Please, consider putting a meaningful effort into this and let us see the results.
not many fans of David are here, ay?
With David gone, you get an end to the journey of Peter Weyland to immortality. I question if it should be dismissed and abandoned by focusing on a rather already thin and bankrupt alien xeno species?
It also will not make a lot of sense, given the constraints of screen time and scope where the sequel should indeed march towards the inevitable, to introduce yet another species or another unknown and therefore intriguing mystery, be it engineers or some aspect of them or about them. Don't you get overwhelmed at some point seeing no end of the same trick being played again and again? Santa Barbara in space? The world is rich as is and doesn't need introduction of other mystical creatures to play out any interesting ideas. So no engineer world exploration. None of that gimmick.
For the sake of Peter Weyland and his journey, David as his descendant needs to leave some form of enduring concept if he is to be ejected because of the pressure by alien fans. Otherwise, what is the point of Prometheus, Weyland and his journey? With David gone Weyland's spirit is erased in that imaginary Alien universe. It will remain only as a nonsensical name, a brand of some mega corporation without any being(artificial or otherwise) that can claim to be a descendant of illustrious and worthy Weyland. Ironically, David is also the carrier of Shaw's spirit. Long story short - you get rid of him, you can actually forget watching Prometheus.
For me David is what Peter wanted to be, but couldn't. In fact Peter envied David. They are actually one and the same character - both ruthless, a bit egoistic(understatement) and grandiose. Of course, they are both worth their salt. So what shall be the legacy of Weyland/David? I think BigDave got it right - it has to be the next step of evolution of mankind. And they should be practically immortal - something that Weyland wanted for himself.
However, given the constraints there won't be any world building, terraforming and all that for these creatures. What should happen is this: we are shown how these perfect humans are engineered by David, he makes a few(most? all? of the embryos) of these while on the Covenant on the path to Origae-6. And when he reaches the destination - he only finds a barren planet that will not sustain life for his children. Of course, humans on earth made a mistake expecting the planet to be wonderful - after all it is only human to make mistakes, ay David? At this point, Planet 4 or the Earth is the only known places that can sustain life. And both of these planets are soon to be full of humans. Now, of course, these sub-humans are not life worthy and dangerous to David and his ilk. So he has got to do what he has to do - sometimes to create one has to ...
It is only handy that he has his other children - another perfect organism which will no doubt do the job. So he will have the remaining colonists converted into eggs, load them up on one of those ships on LV-223 and go bomb the Earth. That is the plan anyway. There is not enough of eggs to be made from human colonists so some of his new children will have to be sacrificed for the greater good, according to David anyway. Except that his children might not like his idea completely. How do they settle the argument?
Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?
The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...
BioDegradable Very interesting. It also seems pretty consistent with some things BD hasn't publicly posted.
"Yet here you are, kicking BigDave into fetal position over and over."
I think everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and i do think a lot of Fans have become Tired of David, the way he was executed in Alien Covenant as far as his Character Development, we also see that most of the things Fans could have looked forwards to had been KILLED off by the Actions of this Psychotic Synthetic.... so he gets the blame for that... when in reality its the Studio who had made those changes and David could have been done better...
I think the main Problem is the Franchise Prequels are Centered around David, more so now that the Engineers are taken out as far as being able to get answers to their Agenda such as Questions Dr Shaw would have wanted answered. so for MANY fans the Alien Franchise should not be about a ANDROID....
Were as RS appeared to want to Branch off to do something else, and have a Few Movies that are not a ALIEN as per say Franchise.
Ridley Scott had some Grand Ideas on how to expand the Franchise beyond Eggs and Queens.... but by Virtue of going a Direct Prequel route the expectation has to be to be about the Xenomorph and NOT a Rogue Robot!
Sadly it is a Consequence of Prometheus being a movie that DID-NOT offer enough clues to the Xenomorph Origin or Derelict, and it had little in the way of Xenomorph like Attack Scenes.. HAD they made a Prequel that introduced a little more of these ELEMENTS from say Alien Engineers, then they could have CLOSED the Door to ALIEN and then a Prometheus Sequel could have explored the Davids Odyssey and not be Shackled Down by the Xenomorph/Direct Prequel Route.
I think its about finding the Balancing Act now... but the Fanbase is so Fractured to what they want/dont want.. and in Hindsight i think the Prequels should have maybe played it a bit more SAFE and not been too adventurous.
Which would be a shame... because as i am sure RS was thinking, ONCE you give the Xenomorph Origins... its a case of WHAT NEXT?
The Logical Point would be to explore the Weyland Company as far as WHY it always had this Agenda, and also more so the SPACE JOCKEY Race... and the whole Creation/Creators Plot was BOLD but maybe too Grand for the Alien Franchise... but thats the thing he was trying to expand to something else and not be about QUEENS and EGGS.
You make a Good Point BioDegradable by asking if we took out David, what is there next to do? And so trying to conclude the Prequels, but by having David be in effect what happened with Dr Shaw in Alien Covenant would render most of Prometheus NULL... unless the Engineers return...
It would be interesting to see how Fans who would not want to see David again/much and to see WHAT route do we go instead? Introducing NEW Characters is all Good, but they have to be Well Done and some of them have to Survive the Next Movie... we cant keep introducing Characters for ONLY a single Movie!
I feel its a shame that a lot of what Prometheus opened up, seems to be falling to the wayside.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"BioDegradable Very interesting. It also seems pretty consistent with some things BD hasn't publicly posted."
Not sure what you mean DK?
"What should happen is this:"
I would think that Origae-6 would have to be Somewhat Sustainable, i cant see it being Totally Hostile.. but YES people can make Mistakes... so indeed maybe Origae-6 would not be the Paradise they thought...
But i would still think it would have to be at least like what we saw with LV-223... which is where David could then Engineer Humans to be able to Survive on this World.
Any incoming Human Ship would maybe get close enough to detect that the Planet is NOT as viable.... and realize they made a mistake.... YET the Covenant is there, and they have detected signs of Life... as they get closer they detect a Colony that should not be there (after they determine Humans Cant/Should Not be able to Survive out in the open). So they would be intrigued and when they land and Space Suit up, what kind of a Shock would they have when they Discover Humans that can Survive on the Surface and have been Engineered somewhat?
Looking at your idea however.... i assume what you refer to is that David has a Agenda for his Creations, but discovers that Origae-6 is a World they would not be able to INHABIT so he makes a Plan with them, which would require some Sacrifice, to go to EARTH and Destroy all Mankind so that his Humanoid Creations can Inherit the Earth?
So at some point he gets to LV-223 to Mass Create Xenomorph Eggs, and Loads them up on maybe ONE or more Ships and then attempts to go to Earth? I guess this would make a ONE movie connection to ALIEN... because and i dont mean to come across Disrespectful i just feel to make this work in TWO movies, which would appear to be based on David Conducts experiments on the Covenant, then they change direction to go to LV-223 to Mass Produce Eggs and then load them on the Derelict and ATTEMPT to leave for Earth.... which we clearly know was not a Success.
The Problem is what dialog do we have, would dialect between David and his Humanoids work? We would need to have Human Characters involved.
while its a Good Point that Time Restraints do limit what you can do with a Sequel, as far as World Building (if David Engineers Humanoids, they could have Rapid Growth Rate like Clones) but i see the point you tried to raise.
But a Problem is still the Time Restraints, we are in the Year 2105 at the time David has tucked everyone into SLEEP.. the Covenant Ship would arrive on Origae-6 in the Year 2112, leaving 10 Years until ALIEN... for him to then head to LV-223 would then take us to the Year 2119/2120 which leaves 2-3 years before ALIEN.
But i guess if most of Davids Engineering Humanoids happens on the Journey to Origae-6 he could then further do more experiments on the way to LV-223, its a Question then of HOW-LONG is he on LV-223 and does he MASS Produce the Eggs on LV-223 and how long would this take.
Then its a case of does most the Movie revolve around experiments and Human Hybrids?
I think any sequel we have to look at Davids Agenda..
Looking alone at AC and the Advent, if it was to Destroy Mankind, then it would be to LV-223, pick up a Engineer Ship and arrive on Earth and UNLEASH HELL!
If David instead has a Fascination with his Xenomorph, then this could take longer and would require the use of all those Colonist and Embryo's and then i feel taking a Ship to Earth would be risky with Eggs because we have to ask HOW do they deploy them?
If David wishes to create his own Humanoids... then using the Black Goo on Earth would render the World Hostile to his Humanoid Creations.... so Xenomorphs would be better, if they have a Limited Life Span!
If we looked at the Advent and assumed David only wants to Create his Xenomorphs, and a Queen then the route to this would not be that HARD and he could do most of it on the Covenant, and Further Experiments on LV-223 which then he would want to LOAD them onto a Engineer Ship, what we have to ask is where is any Dialect going to come from? We would need some Human Interaction.
So the only way this works is that David arrives on LV-223 begins Create his Army of Eggs, but then a Human Ship turns up.. Giving us a bit of a Prometheus, meets Alien Covenant with more Action so meets Aliens kind of Flick.
Which to be fair would be the most Easy (Lazy) way to get the Prequels to ALIEN and give Fans a more Alieny Flick.
Which then we could assume Davids message about the Covenant Mission is a Red Herring to Lure Humans to Origae-6, so he can continue with his Experiments Far away... but in reality... David just needed to NOT mention anything about his Wolves.. as by Virtue of the Advent, the Company would surely go to LV-223 and maybe Planet 4
Again however here lies a Prequel that could connect to ALIEN and not include David (much) .... a Mission to Planet 4, Neomorphs and Xenomorphs and then Engineers Rock Up.... they then take the Xenomorphs to LV-223 to Mass Produce them and Voila! ALIEN here we come...
Leaving a different Kind of Movie to be set around David and Origae-6
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
could have explored the Davids Odyssey
It was never been David's Odyssey. It was Shaw's Odyssey.
not been too adventurous.
Disagree. Adventure - the best aspect of Prometheus. And David-Lowrence better than David-Moreau. He should be a bridge between Shaw and Engineers. They both should explore and discover the new worlds and meet ancient races.
I find it all rather unfortunate at this point, that this is just a no frills, connect the dots type of plot. It is lazy, lousy, unoriginal and wholly uninteresting. But given the screen time constraints of about 150 minutes and the inevitable final destination on the LV-426, there is not really much scope to do anything grandiose and interesting in the next installment. Seems like so, but who knows.
Now, back to that plot.
The WY knows that Peter Weyland went missing on LV-223 on his Prometheus mission and one can see from the Alien Covenant and the Prometheus ending sequence that Shaw's final message ( that the whole mission has died on LV-223, that there is nothing but death there ) hasn't reached WY HQ, located presumably on earth, because the Oram's Covenant crew were quite oblivious to David and knew very little about Shaw and her fate. The fact that the fate of Peter Weyland is in limbo furnishes a way for WY to send another mission to discover of what has happened to him - ergo, it is possible that there was a manned crew, armed to the teeth(marines! just like "fans" want), on its way to LV-223 which was sent at a point in time not much longer after Covenant was launched on its mission. This is the human part.
Meanwhile, we have Walter on Planet 4 being picked up, perhaps re-animated and re-invigorated by the lovely engineers, who show up to discover their playground destroyed. They want revenge :) Walter will oblige and tell them everything. It transpires that Origae-6 is a barren piece of nasty rock, not particularly accommodating for humanoids and in their infinite wisdom they guess and preempt that David will go to LV-223 to carry out his plan, where he will arm himself and his children in order to clear the earth for themselves.
David knows that engineer technology is superior to human tech(remember his admiration and awe when he showed Weyland the bridge of the engineer ship). He will make sure his children are capable to use and re-use the tech once used by the engineers. And after reaching Origae-6, he will steer the Covenant to LV-223.
The rendezvous. A colossal struggle takes place on the planetoid. And the end result is that, you guessed it, some being strapped in the seat of a juggernaut on LV-426. Who the lonely chap is not that important. Could be David or one of his bastards.
This type of mind-numbing plot has a side benefit that most of the characters/parties from previous movies are utilized. You get a high paced non-stop action movie with aliens, engineers, humans, synthetics and as a bonus some other species. Most importantly, however, it features MARINES with lots of GUNS, other weapons with many explosives. You surely can't beat this, right?
I just wish that instead of this shit-show they would give Ridley Scott freedom to do whatever he wants and continue without regards and constraints, even that of the alignment with the 1979 movie.
Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?
The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...
"Disagree. Adventure - the best aspect of Prometheus."
Certainly was a Thought Provoking Philosophical Adventure for sure, what i meant in my Comment about being Too Adventurous as i feel the Plot was a bit too Grand/Bold and there are fans who would not had expected or wanted to see a ALIEN Franchise movie go off on a Different Tangent that could have steered further from what the Alien Franchise was about. So i feel some of the Creation Themes, and Philosophy was taking the Franchise Deeper than it needed to go (for me PERSONALLY? thats what i liked about Prometheus, but its a shame that a lot of Prometheus just Did-Not appear to be what some fans wanted), so they maybe should have given us more ALIEN Engineers, who have NO connection with Mankind, and are instead involved in some Galactic War that Time has Long Forgotten.
I really hope they can retain and go back to some of the Grandeur that the Prometheus began.. that Alien Covenant kind of put the LID on...
"It was never been David's Odyssey. It was Shaw's Odyssey."
I think is where its open to Personal Interpretation.. i Personally feel it was something BIGGER than both those Characters, they was there to help be our Anchor Point to explore the Themes at Play...
Some do feel it should have been about Dr Shaw, some are Disappointed she was not a Ripley like Character, but we dont need to have Ripley Clones (we have that with Ripley 8) and Evidence for that is how FORCED the Character of Daniels seemed to be, in a attempt to kind of replicate Ripleys ARC in the First 3 movies into ONE movie.
some think it should had been about Dr Shaw's Questions, and indeed those Questions would have Provided some Answers that would have been interesting, but i feel those Answers would certainly had NOT came anywhere near the GOD/Creators that she was brought up to have Belief in from her Faith. But i understand some were expecting some revelations more close to her Faith, but i feel she would have found a HORRIFIC Truth that makes her Faith a Sham!
For me Prometheus was about Creation, both in terms of Life but Technology too, it was about what makes someone a God or Godlike, it was about Immortality, but also looking at what makes people Immortalized, and that Does-Not have to mean they LIVE for ever. It was about Sub-Creation and how this can Empower the Creator with a Godlike Sense of Accomplishment, it was also about the HUBRIS of Creation, and especially if you create a Superior, or Intelligent Creation, and this Creation then gains Freewill and Knowledge, becomes Sentient and Rebels, and if your Creation does this and they can Procreate (Create) then what a THREAT that can be..
Its also about the pursuit of Immortality, Knowledge, wishing to Meet your Makers and the Hubris of this, in the belief that your Creation was for a Purpose and one that your Creator had a Great Importance and Care for their Creation... then reveal that the reasons for Creation could be MUCH Farther from that Naive Belief.
In David we see this whole Creation/Hubris ARC played out, its like a Repeating Theme of Hubris, in Hindsight Creating David was a mistake and he was NOT Created to be Loved by his Creator... and for the Engineers as far as Creating us, its maybe exactly the same and so we have this Layered Cake of Creation.... and so it was Logical the Next Stage would have been to see it from David and what he would then Create which would be to his HUBRIS and Downfall.
I feel Dr Shaw would have been used to just show her/us that these Engineers are NOTHING like her Bible Teaches and there is NO Benevolent (at times) God of her Faith, and maybe reveal some other Sinister Reason for our Creation. The Horror when she discovers this would have been our Proxy to the Horrific Truth of Creation.
I ponder it was NO coincidence that the closest thing we saw to a Xenomorph in Prometheus was via Dr Shaw, the Trilobite was in effect a type of Face Hugger, which lead to a Type of Chest Buster (Deacon) and so its NO Surprise to me that she was used to use her Womb/Egg Cells to Create the Xenomorph.. Although i dont think the Original Idea was to have her used to Create the Xenomorph, but certainly i would not be Surprised if after the Revelations, she would be or attempted to be used to Re-Create similar either by David or the Engineers.
But i do think Dr Shaw was not used well, while she would have been better to use as our Proxy to the Horrors she could have Faced... i felt it would have been better for her to had gone through the ORDEAL but be kept Alive... and then Ultimately for her to had Sacrificed Herself... this would have been much more fitting than the Injustice i feel we got in Alien Covenant. Where her END would have given Great Importance to the Saving of others or indeed MANKIND!
I would have had her AFTER all her Revelations that Proof there was NO Goody Two Shoes GOD.... but at that Moment, before she Sacrifices herself, she clasps her Crucifix and closes her Eyes... With that One Final Element and Memory in the Knowledge that what she is doing is similar to who she had put her Faith in had done for Mankind... Sacrifice to Save us!
This is just my Interpretation and so thats not to say i am in any way correct.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"there is not really much scope to do anything grandiose and interesting in the next installment. Seems like so, but who knows."
I think it could go that route... there is the potential to be Grand but sadly as we are NOW in Prequel Territory where we have to ASSUME we are on that Inevitable March to ALIEN where we have to just connect the DOTS to HOW/WHEN/WHY it is that Davids Xenomorphs get unto a Engineer Ship and HOW/WHEN/WHY was that ship in the Facility of LV-223/426.
And it will be these HOW/WHEN/WHY that i feel a lot of Fans would be expecting to see and anything else or Emphasis on anything that does-not connect to the HOW/WHEN/WHY would be seen as a Distraction. I feel any 2 Hour Movie that could mix a bit of Alien Covenant and Prometheus but TAKE-OUT anything Alieny (like Hammerpedes, Trilobite, Deacon, Neomorph or Xenomorph and Eggs). would likely NOT please most fans... or certainly thats how the Studios may see it.
"Now, back to that plot"
Firstly yes Good Point about the lack of knowledge about David by the Covenant Crew, and WHAT the Company knew about LV-223, certainly have to ask WHY in 10 years they never Investigated... maybe they took the Warning for what is is... NOTHING BUT DEATH and so for those who can benefit from Weylands Death.... maybe nothing to GAIN apart from his Death... surely they would send a Probe or a Synthetic Mission though?
Certainly with Walter, i think we have to ask HOW would the Engineers know David is off to Origae-6 and for me, the only way would be via Walter, or if the Lander Wreckage or Something on any of the Dead Crew has any indication of Origae-6.
I think your Plot makes things more Simple/Direct with little Distraction apart from reaching the Inevitable, while also allowing to explore David Creating something else...
Time Restraints we have to consider a Planet 4 to Origae-6 and then Origae-6 to LV-223 Journey would take up 14-15 years of the 17 years before the Nostromo Crew arrive at LV-426.
But that would leave 2-3 Years for what ever HAPPENS on LV-223 to when the Derelict ends up on LV-426, and so a lot of any Creating of Beings by David could be done during any of that 14 years Traveling on the Covenant.
So this could be a simple PLOT that could take ONE movie that would maybe be a SAFER option, as opposed to a movie that could be a Distraction if its spending years on Origae-6.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Obsessive? I am not very happy that they put such a focus on David at the cost of the rest. One of the problems is that there are not many to support but if they would have had some characters to root for then I would write in favor of them (for example “I like this character because of X Y Z”) but there were almost none. David was tolerable in Covenant in the way that think that it was interesting to see the differences between Walter and David but David was too much of an asshole there for me to like him or sympathize with him but he was somewhat interesting. Sure I do not like what the prequels have turned into but it is not like I think about it all the day (about your comment about being obsessive).
I am a fan of the franchise and therefore I do not want more half good and half crap kind of movies - I want them to be good. When someone writes something that I disagree with I tend to answer because that is how I am as a person. It might get repetitive since I do not always remember what I have written in every post that I write so there it is. This is important to keep in mind: I attack the opinion, not the person.
“Yet here you are, kicking BigDave into fetal position over and over."
I say no to ideas that I don’t like but if there are those that I agree with I would say sure. Even though I disagree with things in general there might be parts of what someone say that I agree with. This is not a personal attack on anyone and if it comes across like this then it was never my intention. By the way, I also make sure to say when there are things that I agree with just to not came off as an asshole or extremely negative.
“And it is not like there are many of those to choose from and dismiss this, that or the other.”
I think that we need to see if there are other ideas that we can take into consideration (is that the way to put it?). If something doesn’t work then we have to look for something else, that is my opinion. Some of BD’s opinions are alright while there are other things that I disagree with but that also goes for friends, co-workers, etcetera.
“Have you put out any possible scenario for future follow-up of your own in any considerable details?"
I want more about the black goo, and the Engineers. I can not put this into detail or develop it like maybe some other persons here but I can think about things in general that I want to see and the same goes for things that I say not to.
BD: Yeah maybe a sort of aftermath to what he has created would be better because at least he would not be as dominating in this movie. Eventually we could have like five to ten minutes of him in the movie for those that would like to see him have a bigger role than I would and not be totally reduced.
If the colonists and Oragae-6 could be used in a smart way then yeah why not. Those at the Nostromo discovered a new world so it fits but it has got to be somewhat new to what we have had this far. At the same time I am not afraid that they will not make the surroundings/the planet bad because they have succeeded with that this far but they got to go back and see how the surroundings of the other movies have been and try to make something different or maybe pick from those, I am not sure how that would be.
One thing that I can honestly say in favor if the prequels or a somewhat favor of them is that the ideas are not bad but the execution has been so and so. I am not a huge fan of the idea of Alien five, at least not if they retcon Alien 3 but at the same time I can sort of understand the disappointments that make people support such a project. Sure I am not a huge fan of the prequels although there are things that are interesting but I also think that an Alien 5 would be a bad idea as long as they retcon Alien 3.
Creation, Rebellion and Retribution could be something, I would like to see the Engineers play a role in this in some way. I would like to see something where they have seeded different worlds and how that would play into the story and be if only loosely connected to the SJ if they would risk to mess up the SJ-connection. At the same time I would like something about a nasty company (not necessarily WY) because I like that angle of it. This would have to be something different to WY but still have things in common in how they screw over people.
About David and his creations then yeah maybe but keep him in the background sort of like when he monitored the Xeno on the ship, something like that would be fine by me or how they used Jigsaw in the first Saw-movie. You did not see as lot of him but he was very important to the story although he can be in it like some (like maybe 10) minutes or so based on 2 hours. You mention his Xenomorphs (David’s), sure but make sure to have it as recreations and not that he is the originator because that is lame.
The Engineers should have a role, at least bigger than David so I would like them to be featured in it also. I really like the idea of the Engineers and I feel that they should have bigger screen-time than David and what he has done. Maybe they get to the planet to get rid of David but they get attacked by monsters and they are still mad at humanity so you get humans trapped between Xenos and Engineers that are highly pissed off but you defiantly got to get it better than how they handled the AVP’s. This could be better if they tried to make interesting human characters and also try to get the Engineers right so they would be a threat to the Xenos too. Making a movie like this would not be impossible but they got to struggle to get it right, I would like to see it. You get two old things (the Xenos and struggling humans ) plus something new or at least that we have not seen much of (the Engineers), it could work.
I will now respond to some of your response to Biodegradable.
Yes, I am not totally against having David involved but it is too much about him. Compare this to weak humans characters and too much screen-time to David that is by now totally evil and you get a movie which to me at least is not interesting. Who-ever decided to make David into what he was in Covenant made a bad decision because he was too evil compared to Prometheus where he was better done the way that I look at it. At the same time I am not 100% against the idea to let the androids get more screen-time compared to 1-3 but it is also about their role compared to the rest. Remember that Ash and Bishop had their time but they were better written and the humans were better written too.
“ we also see that most of the things Fans could have looked forwards to had been KILLED off by the Actions of this Psychotic Synthetic.”
Yes, why did they get rid of the Engineers (those that made the movie or those that decided about that)? They were interesting in themselves but they got totally killed just some minutes into the movie. This could be because of some miscalculation of the studio, someone made that decision anyways.
As far as Alien movies are concerned if we by Alien mean the Xeno then sure make something else, I am not against that I even accepted most of the new monsters in Prometheus except for Zombie Fifield but that was not because of the actor I just think that the idea was dumb and the way that the scene was in the movie. I would like P to be more Xeno-ish but that was far from the biggest problem that I have with that movie.
Digging deeper into the SJ world and the company could be interesting if it is getting made well but make sure to make it known that t is in the Alien-world without being a Xeno-movie. There are more things in the Alien-world than Xenos and Ripley, something that I know that you have mentioned and that I agree with. Something that I don’t want is Ripley or Ripley-ties (aunts, uncle, kids, what ever). A franchise like this should not be about a person, it is called Alien not Ripley. I think that we can agree that Ripley has had her time and I am also not that interested to see another queen but having something stranger (look at what Giger did, maybe there could be some inspiration there?).
I think Thoughts_Dreams you have a right to be concerned with a David Franchise, indeed he was a Ass-hole lol
The thing is a Good Ass-Hole is always good... David as a Villain is not bad... but it comes down to something you BRING up a lot.... Good Characters... so when you make a movie about a Villain who is being a Arse-Hole to people... then IF those people that David is being such towards and Characters who we cant connect or have any Empathy for then it all goes to £%&%!
If David killed off Daniels and Tennessee at the End of Alien Covenant or if they are killed by him Off-Screen like what happened to Dr Shaw would masses of people MOAN about their Loss? Not Really.... so Better Characters could Elevate David as a Bad Guy but you need a Good Guy to become the Main Character instead and this Character is the ONE you have to route for... and who the Hell is that gonna be?
Maybe Walter... but then as Robots... its hard to get Fans to feel about a David vs Walter as the Main Characters... ok maybe a Aliens vs Predators is similar.... but i feel that making the Franchise now more about Androids.. and less about the Xenomorph and Space Jockey really is STEERING to FAR from what was ALIEN about Alien!
some of the Themes are interesting and i can see HOW it is that David fits... but i think these Themes are a bit BOLD for the ALIEN Franchise and are a Distraction for most Fans.
The ALIEN Franchise came across like 40% Ripley, 30% Xenomorph, 15% Other Characters, 10% Company Greed and 5% Mystery.
The Prequels seem to be looking like 40% David's Journey, 20% Xenomorph, 10% Engineers/Space Jockey, 10% Other Characters and 10% Mystery
For both Franchises i feel the Emphasis on David and Ripley is TOO MUCH! The Franchise should-not and was not about Ripley and should also not be about David.
"try to make something different or maybe pick from those, I am not sure how that would be"
I think thats a Good Point.... looking at your whole last Reply, i think we can agree that when people look at the Alien Franchise, and they see Eggs, Queens and Ripley and YES the Queen/Eggs are very ALIEN the Alien Hive is Very Alien.
But once this has been done to DEATH.... its ok whats NEXT!
And so we are Familiar with Eggs... the First Time we saw the Eggs in ALIEN it was Epic... the whole Cargo Hold all that Technology/Architecture that was very ALIEN.
The other Aspect of ALIEN that was more Alien was the SHIP, and its Pilot... Very Surreal, Very Alien and EPIC.
I am sure if you asked EVERY Alien Fan say at the time of Alien Resurrection, we are gonna make a Prequel about the Space Jockey Race/Technology and they knew AFTER the First Prequel the 2nd we would get the Movie about a Synthetic and the Space Jockey Race are quickly shown and shown more in context of a Ancient Human Settlement...
I am sure that as of 1998 this kind of idea would be TOTALLY against what seemed so ALIEN about the Derelict and its Pilot.
So yeah... the next movie thats 70% about a World Created by a Android that has NO Aesthetic connecting to the Derelict and HR Giger and that only say has 0-10% Xenomorph and 0-10% Engineer as far as the appearance in Prometheus would surely NOT be how Fans would have Expected a Prequel about the SPACE JOCKEY Race to have turned out.
Too much about David may fit the themes... but it would make the Franchise LESS ALIEN.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
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