Hey guys. My name is Daniel, and I´ve been a long LONG time Alien fan; recently I participated in a discussion on a post about Alien that motivated me to open up a thread here. I’ve been an "Alien" fan as far as I can remember, even as a kid when the movie was scary as shit to me I remember loving it, the first two movies, and some of my favorite toys were the Kenner alien figures I had of Ripley, Drake, Gorilla Alien, Scorpion Alien, Queen Alien, Queen Facehugger, the bull Alien and the flying translucent Alien.
As a long time and hardcore Alien fan I feel INCREDIBLY conflicted about the prequels. Like most people here I absolutely love “Alien” and “Aliens” and I think they're both absolute classics. “Alien 3” had a couple of memorable moments but as a whole was a huge let down and felt like a retread of the first one for me (and like most fans, I totally hated how nonchalantly they got rid of Hicks and Newt). “Resurrection” was all over the place... Again, it had its moments, and it tried to do new things, but nothing quite gelled well in the end.
I was TREMENDOUSLY excited for “Prometheus”, so much so that I designed a fan made poster that was showcased by the official Facebook page of the movie; they had this "Fan Fridays" thing where they displayed the best fan art they had received during the week (too bad that the whole page was erased for some reason when “Alien: Covenant” premiered).
This is the poster I made:
So naturally, I watched it with maybe too much expectations and well... I didn't love it nor hate it, pretty much the same way as I felt with “Covenant”. They're both incredibly well made movies, with top tier visuals and vfx, great acting and editing and lighting, but I just didn't like where they decided to take the story. I kinda agree with the fans who thought the story took away the mystery from the xenos.
I don’t like that the incredibly mysterious and alien looking Space Jockey was revealed to be just a giant pale humanoid. I really liked David's character in “Prometheus” (I even bought the NECA figure of it), it wasn't a villain like Ash nor a hero like Bishop, he was left quite ambiguous, but “Alien:Covenant” turned him into a full blown crazy villain, one that lacks a proper motivation I might add... I mean, why the hell did he killed Elizabeth after she saved him and reconstructed him? And why the hell did he released the black goo on the engineers? Didn't he stated to Walter that he hated humans and that he thinks humans were searching for new worlds because they were a dying species looking for a second chance and he wasn't gonna give it to them? And wasn't it stated in “Prometheus” that the engineers wanted to go to earth to destroy humans? (For whatever unspecified reason) Isn't the enemy of my enemy my friend? And that stuff about him "creating" the xeno's that we know and love practically out of boredom... Man, that was painful for me. But i digress.
I'm writing this post to share my personal preference as to where the story should have gone; after seeing “Prometheus” and hearing the synopsis for “Covenant”, I fantasized a lot about a plot where the new characters encountered David on the engineers home planet, and David explained them that he studied the engineers history and that in there he found an ancient tale about how they came into contact with the xenos for the first time.
Long ago the engineers encountered a rogue planet wandering about aimlessly in the deep residences of space... Given that it was a free floating planetary object, that it wasn't gravitationally bound to any star or moon and that it wasn't heated by any star, it was theoretically impossible for it to support life, but somehow the scanners on the engineer's ship lighted up as if the planet was full of it. They decided to check it out, sending a whole group of them with their advance defense and attack technology. Shortly after the team arrived on the planetoid they lost contact with them, and the only thing that came back from the expedition was a small scape pod which they recovered and only contained a dying engineer. He had told them that what they found there wasn't life...It was in fact "death, the whole planet was full of death". Shortly after his death a estrange organism with some unique characteristics hatched from him. The engineers studied this creature and concluded it was a perfect organism; David then says to the group "The engineers often referred to these creatures with a word that has no direct translation in our language, but the closest term I could get to translate it, was... demons".
Anyways that was my piece of fan fiction for you guys.
I've also always thought it would be cool if there was an alien movie in which a group of people crash landed on a planet with plenty animal wild life, and that somehow alien eggs manage to get there and the facehuggers attach themselves to different animals creating different types of xenos with different looks and abilities from which the survivors have to defend themselves; obviously I thought of this since the days I had my Kenner Alien toys.
I would be super happy to read any comments you guys have. Greetings!
Welcome aboard and Brace Yourself... this is going to be a Big Reply ;) (get used to it from me sorry).
Firstly Nice Posters..
"(and like most fans, I totally hated how nonchalantly they got rid of Hicks and Newt)"
I know many of the more Aliens Fans feel this way, but they sometimes dont seem to think about how they could had carried on, you see it was a very Problematic Production, Originally they wanted a Aliens Sequel to be made in 1988/1989 and even wanted Ridley Scott and Cameron to work on the Project, but they had other commitments. Once they Finally had a Draft to work with, and Production began it was 1991, and so this was 5 years after ALIENS, and so a Carrie Henn. would have been about 15 years old, and certainly gone through some Biological Changes to pass off as say a 9 year old as she would have been when Filming Aliens.
This would mean to KEEP her Alive they would have either had to use a different Actress who would resemble Newt in Aliens, or set Alien 3 some 5-6 years after Aliens or longer. There were various drafts for Alien 3 between 1988 and 1991, and its a case of the Plot they settled with they had those Characters Killed off... and IF they wanted to keep them alive, then you would either have to cast another Actress for NEWT, or set the Movie 5+ years latter.
" I kinda agree with the fans who thought the story took away the mystery from the xenos."
The Prequel was always going to be Tricky... its a case of what do you do in a Prequel? and within the Alien Universe it was always likely going to come down to explore either the Origin of the Xenomorph, or WHO the Space Jockey Race was.
This is what we had, the Problem was ONCE you answered the Xenomorphs Origins what do they do then? They also saw the Xenomorph had been done over and over, and suffered some damage in how the AVP movies had degraded the Beast (especially AVPR). So they had a idea of a Plot to Expand who the Space Jockey was, which was the Ancient Aliens/Chariots of the Gods Plot. While still covering the Xenomorph.
FOX felt that actually the Engineers Plot was interesting and maybe they never had to cover the Xenomorph, because maybe some things should be kept Mystery and they can open up to explore the Franchise in more of a Adventure and Thought Provoking kind of set of Spin-Offs.
Xenomorphs removed, clues to its Origins Vague, and replaced with Organisms that had some connection, but not enough and a Toxic Avenger Fifield, a Space Cobra Petting, and a Deacon Chest Buster that we never got to see what happens!!! Sadly never had that ALIENY Vibe Fans expected.
The Engineers disappointed some because some expected something more ALIEN, and also that the Space Jockey was a Skeleton and not a Space Suit!
At Concept (Starbeast)... yes... the Space Jockey was a Skeleton of a Giant Alien Race who came across the Xenomorph and attempted to carry some of the Spores/Eggs for Study but they became infected.
But at this point there was NO actual Space Jockey as per say... the Space Jockey came from a latter Draft and HR Gigers Concept work.. If you look at his Concepts, and Mural intended for ALIEN, then the Space Jockey looks like a Space Suit, a very Bio-Mechanical one, the occupants are BALD Humanoids.
Regardless... i think some fans are disappointed with those Engineers, for me the Scale was not Quite Giant! But as of the Drafts, they was intended as 12-15ft then revised down to 10ft... but in reality the LACK of using Special Effects only created a Illusion of 8ft Space Jockeys and not 12+ Foot Tall.
"I mean, why the hell did he killed Elizabeth after she saved him and reconstructed him? And why the hell did he released the black goo on the engineers?"
I can see this was confusing for some, how can he had feelings for her, to then just KILL her... well thats a bit of Bad Writing... if we dig deeper, i would assume he had no intentions of killing her, but she had found out what he had done, and maybe his actions/affections towards her, that she felt a bit freaked out and afraid, and David does-not take Rejection Well, considering he did all he had done (Bombarded Engineers) to Save Her! When really he also wanted to save Himself.
You see if these Engineers are NOT fans of Mankind, and they had the same outlook on us as those in Prometheus, then there is LITTLE chance that Dr Shaw would get her Answers, and more Chance she would get her Head Bashed in with Davids...
Dr Shaw is willing to Die for her Answers. But David is not prepared to be Destroyed or see Dr Shaw die in pursuit of such things, instead he sees it better if he KILLS the Engineer, and then he can maybe get Dr Shaw some Answers from the Ruins... and perhaps offer to Start a New Paradise once this World is Cleansed.... which she Rejected.
I could go into more detail beyond Davids Motives and Outlook, but its to do with the Themes of Creation, Sub-Creation and what being a Creator/God is all about. But i dont want to take the Emphasis off you Topic/Ideas.
I am drawn to David seeing the Engineers as Wicked, and Flawed, and also that Mankind are the same (Majority) it does-not mean he had a HATE for all Mankind, he certainly could have been ok with those who Treat him KIND..
Mankind and the Engineers are stuck in their ways/rituals and ways of Life, that in general David does-not feel is KIND. He is looking at BOTH Races as GOD may have with Mankind at the Time of his decision to cause the Great Flood.
GOD chose to save Noah and from Noah Mankind could Repopulate but follow the ways God had intended... And i assume David would have seen Dr Shaw as a way to Create a New Eden, where potentially her Off-Spring could be brought up to be KIND... and not Fall Corrupt and Wicked like Mankind.
This had been my assumption..... and after i made this then years latter it appears the Plot for Alien Covenants sequel would likely had been about David seeing a Second Chance for Mankind but ONLY via the Embryos which i think he would have Engineered as his OWN Children.
The Engineers reasons for wanting us Destroyed? Because they saw we had become Corrupt, Rebellious and a Potential Threat!
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
" I'm writing this post to share my personal preference as to where the story should have gone"
I think thats a interesting take on it.... certainly something to ponder when you saw the Space Jockey in Alien.
*Was this Being Transferring the Eggs for Study (as in the Starbeast Draft) that they discovered on some place/world.
*Where these Eggs something they Created from something they Experimented with that they had discovered on some place/world.
*Had they created these Eggs from Scratch and if so HOW.
Those were the 3 Main things to consider before we had the Prequels...
Your idea touches upon Option 2 and this is what the Alien Engineers draft seemed to indicate while being a bit Vague.
I think there could be a 4th Option that ties with the Themes of Prometheus and HR Gigers Concepts... which is maybe the Engineers are a Engineered Race, or a Race Engineered from a Humanoid Race, or a Encountered Humanoid Race, that are used in some kind of Symbiotic Sacrificial Relationship for some other Races Agenda to Procreate some Organism.
This Race of Engineers have some Covenant and Benefit from Sacrificing some of their kind... they eventually either Rebel against this and have a Conflict with their Masters/Slavers.. which they are then Punished for, but Survive and Use this Punishment to Overthrow their Oppressors and then Steal/Use their Masters Technology.
OR they Sub-Create/Use their Masters Technology to their own Gain, of which their Masters then attempt to Destroy/Punish them... which Fails and leads to the Engineers overthrowing their Masters/Slavers.
I am drawn to/assume something roughly like this when i consider the Prequels Plot/Themes and look at HR Gigers Concepts/Ideas.
Regarding Various Forms of Xeno-MORPHS... indeed its interesting to ponder what the effects of a Face Hugger or Black Goo has on various other Organisms.
To expand on that idea that revolves around HR Gigers Concepts... i like you had the idea of some GIANT World these Beasts came from... ONLY... it was not a world, but a Giant Turtle like Living Craft of Great Great Size.
A HR Giger take on the World Turtle... which i pondered would Grow/Create the Derelicts. They would also Produce Eggs (look like the ALIEN poster) and these Eggs are the Source of the Creation Goo, but some of these Eggs can be Manipulated to Explode and in effect Create a Star/Solar System. They can be Manipulated to then Create Basic Life/Plants on a World....
Basically Combine the World Turtle Mythos with the Cosmic Egg Mythos, but connect it to ALIEN with a HR Giger take on it. i pondered do we have ONE very Large Bio-Mechanical Turtle Craft, or Multiple Smaller Ones? But still like Death Star Size!
I pondered what powers these, and what is the Computer Core, a Life-Form, a Computer or something very very Alien, maybe some Cosmic Void/Shapeless Form!
I also pondered do these Turtle like Bases, have Guardians who have some Elephantine look to them, Truly Giant Beings... Far Larger than the Space Jockey!
And what other Species play a ROLE, upon these Ships/Bases, so it was a way to also MERGE the Starbeast Idea with these Mythos.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Welcome! The Quadrilogy is what it is. Prometheus and AC seem unrelated in hindsight imo. Big picture it looks like someone trying to advance something for no other reason than a cash grab and/ or for vanity reasons. Yep, I mean you RS. I may have bought it 15 years ago but the last two movies- good in their own rights- make things feel sort of bloated and over done.
In Ridley Scotts Defense he had No Control of how the ALIEN sequels spanned out, i am sure he would wanted something Grand, Epic and not about Ripley going around kicking Alien Ass while others are running and hiding.
For FOX it was a case of where do we continue with ALIEN now Miss Weaver is a certain AGE, do we try a movie that has nothing to do with HER.... if we make such a movie and introduce the Xenomorphs how could this conflict with the Franchise (Why Pursue LV-426 for Eggs, and then Ripley), do they continue with a ALIEN 5 but then how does a Ripley 8 who can Regenerate look so much Older... and ULTIMATELY once we have done this, and its a case of WHAT NEXT?
If we got a ALIEN 5, and 6 its a case of can we keep having this Ripley 8 Age 3-5 years between movies? Eventually they would have to consider a PREQUEL as a way to make more MONEY!
Ridley Scott lost control of HOW the sequels to his Alien could have gone, but he has a Chance to Create the Origins in a way that suits him... and NO-ONE ever answered the Xenomorph Origins, the Space Jockey Origins/Species or HOW/WHY and WHEN he had that Cargo.
They expanded the Plot with the Chariots of the Gods/Engineers Plot... they (mainly FOX) then felt this was the MAIN thing to concentrate on, and something that could then Expand the Franchise beyond Face Hugging and Chest Busting and that maybe leaving the Origins of the Xenomorph and Space Jockey Event a bit of a Mystery was something thats right to do....
In Hindsight failure to replace the beast with something similar and being too vague was a Problem... Neomorphs in Prometheus would have helped or similar.
Problems came from the reaction to Prometheus, FOX took on board the lack of Answers, No Xenomorphs, and how Fans was not a massive Fan of Dr Shaw or the Engineers.
And so Alien Covenant was BORN... and FOX kick-started this Change of Direction... it was not helped by Blomkamp putting his ALIEN 5 Fanboys Wet-Dream out there.
But then when we came to Alien Covenant, it was a combination of Flaws... a attempt to please everyone, by giving a little to everyone but not enough for everyone.. with one Emphasis on David... and his Character ARC was a bit flawed for some... and the revelation of HE creates the Xenomorph is something that had Pissed Most people off. I am sure revealing the Predators Created the Xenomorph to kill the Engineers would have not been as bad for the Fans!
But indeed RS was still a Champion for this Plot Change and Character ARC of David, and the Execution of some of the Scenes, but also he is limited by the STORY which i think Logan and Harper did not do too well... But RS agreed and liked what they had to offer.
I think the Franchise Regardless who takes over the reigns and regardless of Plot Change is ONE more Disappointing Movie away from becoming a bit of a JOKE! well becoming Damaged Beyond Repair... apart from Flicks about Ripley for Fanboys Cash Grab!
But to we want to see the Franchise be full of usual Tropes and become more of a Marvel Hero Type Flick? That would be Very ALIEN to what ALIEN was.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Hey mate! Thanks a lot for your (lengthy) response to my post. I’m gonna answer things you mentioned in your first two posts (the last one I’ll save it for later).
"I know many of the more Aliens Fans feel this way, but they sometimes dont seem to think about how they could had carried on, you see it was a very Problematic Production"
Yeah, I read A LOT about the problems regarding “Alien 3”, so I was aware of a lot of what you say regarding this subject. It just amazes me how clueless the suits from Fox must have been to settle with that script… I mean, “Aliens” was a MASSIVE success on all accounts, didn’t it crossed their minds the fans wouldn’t take it very well if they killed TWO THIRDS of the survivors of that movie off-screen? It’s like doing a Matrix sequel were Morpheus and Trinity are already dead at the beginning, it doesn’t make any sense.
Regarding how they could have carry on with the “Aliens” story and Newt given the time it has passed when “Alien 3” began production, I think simply recasting Newt would have been perfectly fine, tons of movies have done this effectively, I don’t see how that could have been that much of a problem.
Another aspect of the troubled story of “Alien 3” that you didn’t mentioned was that the first trailer hinted at the fact that the movie was gonna take place on earth, which could have been really interesting if handled correctly imo (sadly, Sigourney Weaver was always opposed to this idea AFAIK, cause she thought it was boring), but then all of that was just ignored in favor of the (ill advised) prison planet plot.
"The Prequel was always going to be Tricky... its a case of what do you do in a Prequel? and within the Alien Universe it was always likely going to come down to explore either the Origin of the Xenomorph, or WHO the Space Jockey Race was."
I totally get what you mean mate, I mean, sequels and prequels in general are SUPER tricky to do, because if you stick TOO close the original people are gonna call it a boring copy, but if you do something TOO different people are gonna say you did something that hasn’t any connection to the original. Making a prequel to “Alien” in particular was always gonna be incredibly delicate because of how many mysteries and unanswered questions the original left in the audience, questions from which every fan had imagined different answers in their minds, so it’s absolutely impossible to make up a story that could satisfy everyone.
"The Engineers disappointed some because some expected something more ALIEN, and also that the Space Jockey was a Skeleton and not a Space Suit!"
This is exactly why I hated so much that aspect of the story of “Prometheus”… I mean there´s a lot of scenes of “Alien” I love but if I had to pick one I would pick the Space Jockey one, it is SO DAMN CREEPY AND MYSTERIOUS, I remember the first times I saw the movie I couldn’t even make up the figure of that alien, and then I could sort of see him sitting down on that giant chair but it still was the most weird and alien looking thing I’ve ever seen in a movie, I always imagined tons of theories and stories on how those things would have look when they were alive and why they were there etc etc, so for “Prometheus” to reveal this was just a suit for a giant albino humanoid well… it was heartbreaking for me.
"If you look at his Concepts, and Mural intended for ALIEN, then the Space Jockey looks like a Space Suit, a very Bio-Mechanical one, the occupants are BALD Humanoids."
Do you have links or pictures of that? I don’t remember having seen any of those images, it would be super interesting for me to check that out.
"I can see this was confusing for some, how can he had feelings for her, to then just KILL her... well thats a bit of Bad Writing..."
Yeah, that’s my opinion too, just a case of bad writing. I mean you then go on to speculate a lot of interesting stuff in your post, but in the end of the day is just that, speculation… If you have to speculate TOO MUCH to explain the motivation behind the actions of a character in a movie I think that usually mean is just bad writing.
"The Engineers reasons for wanting us Destroyed? Because they saw we had become Corrupt, Rebellious and a Potential Threat!"
Actually I don’t know if you know this theory but long ago on a “Prometheus” forum I read this explanation that I thought it was super interesting, and it was supposedly like… an official one, like, it supposedly was stated by Ridley Scott in some interview that it was the idea behind the explanation of why the engineers wanted to kill mankind, but that they had to cut it due to fear of religious back lash.
Supposedly, in an earlier draft of “Prometheus”, it was hinted that an engineer was sent to earth thousands of years after they had implanted the seed of life there; he was there to oversee the evolution of mankind and to check out if they were “on the right track”. In the finished movie, David says to Elizabeth that the ship they´re in was to be headed to earth to destroy it roughly 2000 years ago (if my memory serves me well), which implies that the engineer sent to earth was in fact the one people came to call Jesus Christ (cause of his vast knowledge and alien/godly features and powers), and because he was tortured and murdered by mankind, the engineers deemed humanity unworthy of the gift of life and that was why the ship was headed back to earth to destroy it. Ever since I read that I always thought it would have been a super interesting and risky explanation but yeah, I totally get why they wouldn’t go for it in the finish product, people can be very delicate regarding religion.
"To expand on that idea that revolves around HR Gigers Concepts... i like you had the idea of some GIANT World these Beasts came from... ONLY... it was not a world, but a Giant Turtle like Living Craft of Great Great Size."
Yeah, I always thought that rogue planets are really interesting and creepy, given that you don’t know where the hell they come from or where are they going, and having the first contact with the xenos being on one of them I thought it was really cool, because it still leaves some mistery, it wouldn’t be clearly stated if the xenos originated from there or if they arrived there from some other place. The idea of the planet being a type of “Giant Turtle” or “Living Craft” is also great, it wasn´t what I originally imagined but is a really cool idea, like an interstellar Trojan Horse.
I’ll read your last post when I finish some stuff, but it was very interesting to read your replies mate!
No Problem ;)
"Do you have links or pictures of that? I don’t remember having seen any of those images, it would be super interesting for me to check that out."
These are the Concepts to the Face Huggers and Victims, Note also the Murals that HR Giger did... First was the Design of the Space Helmet looking Mural, which is also shown in the One Face Hugger concept... then we have the other Face Hugger Concepts with No Helmets.
Then the Newer Mural they changed the Helmets to look less Human Technology, from this after he then did the Space Jockey Concept.
Close Inspection the Concept looks less like a Skeleton.
Here is another Montage i did about a year ago... TOPIC HERE
You can see similarities of the Suits.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Regarding the Space Jesus... yeah i remember that one, but they felt it was a bit too much on the NOSE!
some people read into it too much, and the whole BIBLICAL connections.... They forget that Prometheus was NOT showing us that these Engineers are GODS Servants and Jesus was a Space Jockey ;)
Prometheus set up the Chariots of the Gods, Ancient Astronaut/Aliens Theory...
Where Mankinds Origins, came from beings from the STARS who Mankind throughout History had Interpreted as Gods, and so they stood for ALL our Ancient Mythos regarding Gods and Creation.
Ridley Scott said we should look at Jesus being a Emissary we sent down to guide us back on track, but we Crucified him... but RS had said that we should just look at it as though Mankind at this time and that area of the World (Roman Empire) were behaving in ways that did-not please the Engineers.
I speculate that maybe there was more than ONE of these Emissaries sent down, and NOT every Culture/Continent had KILLED their Emissaries, and i feel this would explain why some of the Star Maps were from Cultures that had been around AFTER the 2000 years ago Death of Christ and Engineers Attempted Destruction of Earth.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Hi and welcome to the board, it is always nice to see new members because we all have our history in our own ways with the franchise. I hope that you will like it here
The prequels have a lot of problems but there are also some interesting things about them. My main complaint are the characters, they have been lacking since AR but I like the first three Alien 3 being my favorite. I can see why people dislike 3 but I enjoy it, there is no problem for me that they killed Newt and Hicks because it was never about them anyways. Aliens was probably my favorite when I was younger (hey it is an action movie) but as I have gotten older that has changed so now it is
1. Alien 3
This is how I look at it
Alien 3 had some things in common with the first one but in no way is it a repetition I think. You had new characters (prisoners instead of working people), a new place (prison instead of a ship), it was more about religion compared to the rest which I like (not a religious person though), the monster was born from an animal and it also took traits from the host. Ripley was at the end of her life which developed the character. The way it was shot was very good, I can go on and on. Tonally (is that the word?) it is closer to 1 than 2 and I like that but 2 is still OK.
I like the poster that you made, well done there.
I agree with you about David, I think that he was interesting in Prometheus but he was a psychopath in AC. I like it when they are more ambiguous as characters because it makes me think more.
“And that stuff about him "creating" the xeno's that we know and love practically out of boredom... Man, that was painful for me. But i digress.”
Yes, that is totally effed up, that is probably the part that disappoints me the most about Covenant after the characters or lack of as far as the quality is concerned.
Thanks for the short fan story (short should not be seen as criticism), I enjoy it. I like it when people come up with ideas of their own as long as they are not here for self-promotion.
Don’t worry about Big Dave, he is smart but he can never write short replies. ;) (Sorry Big Dave, I just had to say that even though I enjoy reading many of your replies.)
DK: I think that he has money but he probably wants control of the franchise that is what I think. Unfortunately it has not turned out well this far so we have what we have. His habit of affecting the story-writing is just bad and makes things worse so he is one of those to blame IMO.
Regarding Killing Off some of the ALIENS cast, this is a problem that Movie Franchises Face when there is a certain TIME between each movie, which is not a problem sometimes... but it is when a Surviving Character is a Child, but as you said they could have cast another 8-10 Year Old as Newt, i think you can get away with it more if say you had a 9 year old in a movie and the next movie she would be say 13-15 and you Change the Actress, or say 18-21 Years Old now and you use someone else, because any differences could be put down to how people can change in appearance from their Preteen years to Teens and to Adulthood.
So that could have worked..... this is a Problem that Faces Ripley 8 and David as far as Future Appearances because we have to assume David would remain the same Age Appearance forever... so the longer any Alien Covenant sequel takes, the more they have to explain WHY would a Android Age! With Ripley 8 as a Hybrid with Regeneration you then have to ASK would a Ripley 8 Age?
I think another Problem at the time of ALIEN 3 was how do you continue after ALIENS with the Survivors and then Figure out HOW/WHERE to you introduce the Xenomorph again? Did the Destruction of Hadleys Hope, also Destroy the Derelict? Then IF-NOT its a case of WHY would Ripley want to go back to that Nightmare again for a 3rd Time, she likely be NO THANKS i am off to raise Newt and have a Life Back!
The response would be likely the same IF the company found another place where they could obtain the Xenomorph on another World, which must be something they had no idea about between the years 2122-2179 and so the Alien 3 Plot was a way to introduce the Xenomorph via Eggs on the Sulaco. While i can understand WHY they would kill off Newt... they could have still had Hicks Survive and it would maybe give us Greater Character Connection as we see Hicks and Ripley Mourn the Loss of Newt... we could then have had Ripley and Hicks become close.
So when we see Ripley having to Sacrifice herself we could have more impact at the LOSS via Hicks, and this would also have left Hicks open to be the Protagonist in any sequel as he would make a VOW that Ripleys Sacrifice was NOT in Vain and he would NOT allow the Company/Mankind to obtain a Xenomorph at any point!
But ALAS... things Never Turned out that way!
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"I speculate that maybe there was more than ONE of these Emissaries sent down, and NOT every Culture/Continent had KILLED their Emissaries, and i feel this would explain why some of the Star Maps were from Cultures that had been around AFTER the 2000 years ago Death of Christ and Engineers Attempted Destruction of Earth."
Correct BigDave, map below.
Excellent topic and poster Decs.
I think the PREQUELS are a whole different Story... you are LIMITED to how you explore them...
A Prequel that Focuses on the Weyland-Yutani Company, would not be Interesting Enough on its own, there would be expected to be some ALIEN Connection as far as AT-LEAST the Xenomorph.
Special Order 937 would have been a avenue as the Company had some idea about the Xenomorph before the Nostromo Crew had been sent to LV-426. The Question would be HOW and WHAT did they know and this could have evolved a prior Discovery/Mission to LV-426 and the Derelict and maybe Explain the ACID Hole, but leave the Derelict Crash as something Ancient and a Mystery.
They could have explored a Outpost connected to the Derelict like LV-223 where some clues could have been given regarding the Origins of the Xenomorph and Date of the Space Jockey/Derelict event and have this Movie/Franchise END with the Destruction of LV-223 but the company discover the location of LV-426 as a avenue to obtain the Specimen Elsewhere...
Both Prequel ideas could have explained Special Order 937 and gave some insight to the Space Jockey Event and Origins of the Xenomorph while also being a ALIEN like Movie with Xenomorphs.
But the other ASPECT of ALIEN that was not Answered was WHO the Space Jockey was... and maybe WHY he had that Cargo... which is another Avenue to look at that has NEVER been covered in the Franchise, as we had seen Xenomorphs before and the only things that we Did-Not know was.
*Where do the Eggs come from?
*How does a Queen Come about?
*What Connection/Purpose does the Space Jockey have with them?
*How did Special Order 937 come about?
But then when we try to answer those things we have to BARE in Mind the Derelict was supposed to be there for Thousands of Years and so it would be only via Clues, Flash Backs and Information Left/Obtained from the Derelict that would give us a Answer to those Questions... UNLESS you are going to Set a Movie that is set Thousands of Years ago.. but how do HUMANS come into play? OR if you have it that the Derelict Event happened much more Recently and after Humans Discovered some World the Derelict then leaves.
But another Aspect Never explored would be WHO the Space Jockey race was and their Purpose.
*Who was the Space Jockey, its Race?
*Why did they have that Cargo/Bio-Weapon?
*What Conflicts were they involved in?
*Where do they come from?
*Where are they Now?
And so again its a Question of HOW do you discover these Beings, do you have a Movie Set Thousands of Years ago? Do the Humans come into Contact with their Species, and the Potential Plot Holes this Raises as far as NEVER having any Interactions with them at the Time of the ALIEN Franchise.
Or does a Prequel come across a Ancient Ship, or a where the Ship came from and make discoveries/answers via any Information/Clues this Race had left behind, or any Recordings on their Ships/Outposts? And having it that only ONE or a Few of their Species is Alive but in Cryo-sleep like we had in Prometheus.
THIS would have been the way to go and explain the Origins, which is what the Prequels attempted but they did it in a too vague way....
Once you answer those Questions... and Lesson the Mystery, its then a case of what NEXT for the Space Jockey as far as exploring them in Future... where would we discover more of them, and what implications would it be to run into this Race in Future?
This is where the Prequels introduced the Creators/Would Be Gods Plot... as a way to OPEN up the Franchise to expand in a lot of ways, rather than having Discover the Space Jockey was a unconnected ALIEN Race who had taken the Eggs to USE in some Ancient War that Mankind is NO part of...
Its then WHO was they at Conflict with and WHERE is this other Race etc....
So the Prometheus Plot was a way to introduce a Back Story about these would be Gods, and opened up a HUGE possibility of HOW many Worlds had they interacted with, HOW many other Races are their in the Galaxy etc.
The Question is would having the Space Jockey/Engineers being NEVER involved with Mankind, and just at Conflict with each other FAR FAR away or another Species had been a better way to go? I guess its HOW do you expand upon the Space Jockey/Conflicts in Future Movies.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think back to your idea....
Then it could be something to be explored as far as some ROGUE World.... we have Rogue Planets in our Galaxy, Planets that Formed on the Outer Rim of their Systems that eventually the Gravity Pull of their Star is no-longer enough to hold them within their System...
Or they are pushed away during a Chaotic Start to their Solar System or a Chaotic Event in their Solar System... for example the Collapse of a Red Dwarf that has a Planet at the very FAR Reaches of its Solar System could push the said Planet out into Deep Space and becomes a Rogue Planet.
For a Rogue Planet that has the ability to support Life, when it becomes a Rogue Wandering Planet without a SUN of its own... then Life on that World would Change!
You can ponder how would LIFE adapt to these changes, would it DIE-OUT or develop into something NEW and adapting itself... becoming a SURVIVOR.
If so what would this Life be like? And what would happen if another Species came across said Adaptive Life-Form?
You could certainly see the Creator Race of Engineers find some of the Aspects of such a Creatures Survival as Interesting and Traits they deem are worthy of Experimenting with and trying to pass these onto the kinds of LIFE they would Create... Maybe with Dire Consequences?
However i do suspect that your Rogue World idea revolves around some World that is Intelligently Controlled.. maybe even Artificially Created or Adapted and so NOT a World that is Wandering Aimlessly across Space.
This is something that cant be ruled out, if we have a Species that are many Millions of Years Old... we also have to Ponder are there Species in the Galaxy that are FAR FAR ahead of the Engineers and their Technology.. or maybe even the Source of the Engineers Technology?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Hey again BigDave! I’m gonna address some of the stuff you said in your later posts; it was super interesting to read all of it!
“In Ridley Scotts Defense he had No Control of how the ALIEN sequels spanned out…”
Yeah that’s always a problem with movie franchises, unless they´re all written and directed by the same people, there´s always gonna be conflicting views and ideas. Also, although I had always given Scott his due credit for the tremendous work he did on the original “Alien”, he did not write the script so for all we know his ideas for sequels could be very different of say the ones that the original writers had.
“Problems came from the reaction to Prometheus, FOX took on board the lack of Answers, No Xenomorphs, and how Fans was not a massive Fan of Dr Shaw or the Engineers.”
Yeah, this is a big problem too… When a studio tries to “correct” a franchise by giving the audience what they think they want, there´s A LOT of stuff that can go wrong, which is what happened with “Alien: Covenant” I think. Like I said earlier, it is IMPOSSIBLE to please everyone, you´re always gonna piss some people off, so the filmmakers are better off doing things they really are invested in and think could make an interesting movie instead of trying to please every fan of the franchise.
“These are the Concepts to the Face Huggers and Victims, Note also the Murals that HR Giger did”
Oh cool, thanks mate! I still think the Space Jockey looks more like a skeleton than a suit but well, “Prometheus” already exists so there´s nothing I can do about it.
“some people read into it too much, and the whole BIBLICAL connections.... “
Yeah I also think that sometimes people read WAY too much into things that weren’t supposed to be scrutinized so much. As of the biblical references, well Ridley Scott is apparently very keen on introducing biblical references on his films (and well, he did a whole movie about one of those biblical stories, “Exodus: Gods and Kings”) so yeah, his films are apparently ridden with them.
“So when we see Ripley having to Sacrifice herself we could have more impact at the LOSS via Hicks, and this would also have left Hicks open to be the Protagonist in any sequel as he would make a VOW that Ripleys Sacrifice was NOT in Vain and he would NOT allow the Company/Mankind to obtain a Xenomorph at any point!”
Hey, that’s a really cool idea, I would have loved if “Alien 3” would have done something like that. I remember seeing the Comic Con Panel on the “Aliens” 30th anniversary and if I remember correctly both James Cameron and Michael Biehn expressed regret that the Hicks character was killed off at the beginning of the third one cause they thought a really interesting and tender relationship could have been developed between them, and I totally agree with that. Your idea reminded me of what they said.
“Special Order 937 would have been a avenue as the Company had some idea about the Xenomorph before the Nostromo Crew had been sent to LV-426. The Question would be HOW and WHAT did they know“
Yeah, as an “Alien” fan I obviously ALWAYS wanted to know the origin of the Order 937 and how the hell the Company knew about the creatures, and I had hopes that either “Prometheus” or “Alien: Covenant” touched that subject but yeah, no luck on that. I assume Scott was planning to end his prequel trilogy by explaining the origin of that order but seeing that nobody still knows if he´s gonna be given the chance to end the trilogy well, we may never know.
“I think back to your idea... Then it could be something to be explored as far as some ROGUE World...”
Hey, I’m glad my short story stuck on your head and made you think! Well I kinda imagined this rogue world as being like a dark barren place, a place where there shouldn’t be any life but somehow it has, but given how unnatural the environment is then that life must be somewhat unnatural too to survive there. I even imagined the planet (or a part of it) being literally made of xenos… Remember that part in “Aliens” when they get to where all the colonist were and the xenos were like all like hiding in the floor and walls and ceiling, camouflaged in the background? Well something like that but around the whole planet. I guess you could make it a metaphor for hell or something of that sort, that´s why I make the “demon” reference in my story.
“Hi and welcome to the board, it is always nice to see new members because we all have our history in our own ways with the franchise.”
Hey Thoughts_Dreams, thank you! Yeah, I think that too, everyone must have their different stories regarding how they fell in love with the franchise and I’m sure they’re all super interesting.
“I like the poster that you made, well done there.”
Thank you mate! I was very proud of it and it received hundreds of likes and comments on the official “Prometheus” fan page on Facebook, so I was super pissed off when they erased the page when “Alien: Covenant” came out, I didn’t see the need to do that.
“but I like the first three Alien 3 being my favorite”
You know, I actually don’t think “Alien 3” is a bad movie, not at all, I just think it was an underwhelming “Alien” movie. It had memorable and risky moments, the visuals are cool, the concept of the xeno was interesting, some characters were somewhat memorable (although I found most of them forgettable) and well Fincher proved later on that he was indeed an excellent director if the studio lets him do what he actually wants to do, so who knows what might have been if Fox wouldn’t have interfered so much with his vision. I’ve never seen the Assembly Cut of the film (is that what is called?) but I want to, I’ve heard it improves a lot of stuff of the theatrical release.
“Thanks for the short fan story (short should not be seen as criticism), I enjoy it. I like it when people come up with ideas of their own as long as they are not here for self-promotion.”
You´re welcome, glad you enjoyed it!
”Don’t worry about Big Dave, he is smart but he can never write short replies. ;)”
Lol, well I have also been accused of that on occasion so I don’t mind haha.
“DK: I think that he has money but he probably wants control of the franchise that is what I think.”
Who are you referring to here? Who´s DK?
I think the Space Jockey was a very interesting Entity, its Origins have changed quite a little. Originally the Space Jockey did not exist so to speak, the Original Drafts to ALIEN showed a Stranded Derelict Alien Ship (did-not look like the Alien Derelict) and on the ship was the Skeletal Remains of a Giant Alien Species who had came across a Pyramid that contained the Spores/Eggs and they attempted to take them to their Ship and got infected.
There were some concepts for this Alien Race, but they looked very Un-Human even Less-Human than the Space Jockey, but then Ridley Scott had decided to use HR Giger for Concept Ideas and he really did like Necronom V
Elements from this formed the Basis for some of the Xenomorphs Design and the Space Jockey. This Necronom V Pilot so to speak is something VERY Alien, a being that is a True Bio-Mechnoid and appears to be Connected Permanently to the Pilot Chair.
There is always scope to introduce a Alien Race that are very Bio-Mechanical and Infuse with their Technology. And certainly have these Race be the Origins to the Engineers Technology.
Regarding the Rogue Planet and Ridley Scott's intentions for the Franchise, he had wanted to explore the Xenomorph being more Intelligent, and he wanted to explore a VERY Alien and Bio-Mechanical World and so such things could FIT very well with your Rogue Planet, and could you imagine a HR Gigers Take on like a BORG Ship, But talking Death Star Size!
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I am glad that other people enjoyed it too
It is a movie that splits people as far as likes and dislikes but that is alright. No matter if you like or dislike Alien 3, I think that many would put it in front of the AVP’s, the prequels, and Resurrection, 3 is a lot better compared to them I would say. Yeah maybe there were too many background characters but some of them were well-done (like Morse, Clemens, and Dillon). Totally agree that it would have been better if Fox wouldn’t have interfered the way that they did, something that you also bring up. Sometimes I wonder what it would have been without the studio-interference. Yup it is called The Assembly Cut, give it a chance and see what you think of it at least that is my preferred version.
DK is a member here, I guess that I should have put it in a separate post. My bad
So, re-reading the thread I realized that I totally missed some posts, probably because of how large Big Dave posts were (no offense! lol).
"Big picture it looks like someone trying to advance something for no other reason than a cash grab and/ or for vanity reasons."
Hey dk! Sorry I totally missed this post, I hadn’t even realized you posted on this thread until now lol. You know, despite my gripes with "Prometheus" and "Alien: Covenant", I really don´t think they're cash grabs, I think Ridley genuinely wanted to explore the “Alien” universe beyond just the xenos and having them kill all the characters in the movie over and over again, the thing was, the direction in which he wanted to take the story wasn’t everyone´s cup of tea, myself included. However, I do give him credit for trying to do something fresh and new with the franchise with "Prometheus", instead of doing another retread. Too bad that many of his decisions regarding where to take the story where kinda questionable.
"Excellent topic and poster Decs."
Thanks a lot Ingeniero!
"I think the Space Jockey was a very interesting Entity"
I totally agree Big Dave, like I said before, that scene in "Alien" was probably my favorite one, and I had always wanted to know more about those beings, but the way Ridley Scott decided to explore and present them in his prequels left me totally cold and dissatisfied, sadly.
That picture you posted is cool, I think I had seen it before. It always strikes me how obviously and strongly sexual are most of H.R. Giger´s designs, it really is heavy and in-your-face stuff on that front.
"No matter if you like or dislike Alien 3, I think that many would put it in front of the AVP’s, the prequels, and Resurrection, 3 is a lot better compared to them I would say."
Yeah, I think I do agree with that statement up to a point Thoughts_Dreams, 3 is definitely better than Resurrection and the AvP movies (I haven’t even seen the second one because of how badly it was received by almost everyone in the world)... Although I think 3 is kinda on par with the prequels for me though.
I think Prometheus would have been an outstanding movie on its own without the Alien connection. There were Xenos in every prior movie so of course I expected to see that- not just the lame Deacon scene at the end.
BTW- RS did 1/4 of the Quadrilogy, so I cannot see how he can really claim the franchise as his own. Carpenter could make that claim too as far as I can see. Fincher would just give a one finger salute.
"Both Prequel ideas could have explained Special Order 937 and gave some insight to the Space Jockey Event and Origins of the Xenomorph while also being a ALIEN like Movie with Xenomorphs."
I guess Advent explains the origin of special order 937.
The question I am asking myself now is: did Ridley Scott knew that he will not be allowed to finish the prequels after the release of Alien Covenant and that's why they gave us Advent?
Advent is there to answer some questions that could have been answered in the next installment, it is even a queen mentioned, as an olove branch to Aliens fans. It explains also what the black goo was and why David killed Shaw, how he came to make his xenomorph.
Just a thought.
"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"
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