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Between a rock and a hard place

Between a rock and a hard place

ninXeno426

Jan-06-2019 1:19 AM

I think it's safe to say Alien is undergoing an identity crisis.But who is to blame really?Ridley for not sticking to his original vision?Fox and their infamous meddling?Or is it perhaps our fault?

To be honest it's all of the above as well as some other contributing factors.When these prequels began they were Actually Alien with John Sphait's Alien Engineers script.I believe it was Fox who made the decision to deviate from making an Alien film,likely believing that "the beast is cooked" following the gradual quality decline with the franchise starting with Alien 3.

Thus Prometheus is born.

Fans couldn't help but get hyped,but many ultimately disappointed that the final product didn't resemble Alien as much as they hoped,denied answers to questions they had on their minds for decades.Complaints aimed at the lack of the xenomorph are a common complaint.This leaves a promised Prometheus 2 in a tough spot.

Alien 5 is announced and takes a lot of steam from Prometheus 2.After all an Alien film is what the majority wants.

But Scott comes back with his Prometheus sequel that promises to be an actual Alien film after saying Prometheus 2 wouldn't have xenomorph.Alien Paradise Lost wins over Alien 5 with the latter being cancelled.

"They want fucking Aliens,I'll give them fucking Aliens."

That's Ridley addressing Covenant as well as fans.Fans didn't want engineers,they wanted xenomorph and Covenant promises to bring the Starbeast back.

But here's a new problem...Prometheus fans want more engineers,they've seen the xenomorph,it's played out.Time for something fresh.Alien Covenant neglected the engineers,Instead David the lonely perfection of his dreams take center stage.

So here's what i think the problem is,Prometheus divided the fan base.Alien Covenant was almost meant as an apology...but divided an already divided fan base farther.Some like the back to basics approach,some disappointed by the step back and lack of ambition of Prometheus.And to make matters worse the disappointing box office of Covenant.

So where does Alien go from here?Covenant was meant to be a compromise for both fan bases,but alienated both.And never mind the fact that a majority of fans hate both prequels any way.After reading various responses to other threads i'm not certain what the best path is.Should Alien be hard reset?But then there will be many that still desire answers to questions that started with Prometheus.But just as many who don't give a damn.

Movies like Terminator have already lost steam with rebooting,failing,rebooting again,failing again to rebooting again.Terminator is on it's last shot with this years new movie.Hopefully Alien isn't here yet.The franchise is a mess...but the best bet is to probably stay on course and make Alien Awakening,perhaps with out Ridley as well as a fresh writing team.Alien has 40 years of storylines,even Star Wars and Star Trek can't truly say this,Trek reboots fragged most everything that came before them and Disney tossed anything Star wars that wasn't a film...a couple decades of canon that included books comics games etc down the drain for a new vision that has been decidedly divisive.

I personally feel there's still a lot of life left in this universe,it just needs to find a middle ground.Better direction and screen plays can go a long way.Predator is screwed,Alien isn't.There's still time...with Disneys purchase of Fox being finalized this year,i think we should know soon where Alien goes from here...hopefully.

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

17 Responses to Between a rock and a hard place

BigDave

Jan-07-2019 8:55 AM

Certainly a Good Summary of what state we are in...

HINDSIGHT... is a wonderful thing!

If Prometheus was more of a Cross Between Prometheus and Alien Engineers.... then maybe that DOOR to ALIEN could have been closed and allowed Ridley Scott to take us where they had planned after Prometheus.

My re-write of Prometheus i worked on in 2013 did attempt to give us a more ALIENY movie in some scenes, but was more closer to Prometheus than Alien Engineers.. it was just a adding of some scenes and changing of some scenes to make a more clearer connection to the Xenomorph, while retaining a lot of Mystery...

Alien Engineers did offer (not just about Xenomorph Scenes) but it made it more clear of the Connection between the Experiments, and HOW the Xenomorph came to be WHILE still having some Mystery and i was attempting to add a little of this...

Which Included.

More Xenomorph like Fifield with Acid Blood.

Showing Hammerpedes had Eggs.

Showing the results of those Eggs (kind of a Baby Head Hybrid Chest Burster).

More time spent on the Chest Busted Cryo-pods.. with a bit of dialog..

More time spent on the Mural, and a brief glimpse of what was behind that Door.

NOT A SINGLE Xenomorph in sight!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jan-07-2019 8:56 AM

I think this reply i put in another Topic... fits Perfectly here too.

I think the BIG PROBLEM... is a majority of the Fanbase are more in tune with Camerons Aliens and how the Xenomorph was used in the many Games, Novels and Comics.

The Prequels starting with Prometheus did offer something a bit NEW... but i feel while this idea was accepted by some of the fanbase, more so ALIEN fans, it was never quite what a lot of Fans expected....  a Prometheus 2 would likely have lost a number of the Fanbase that had gone to see Prometheus expecting it to be more Alieny...

The Problem with Alien Covenant was it had tried to please some of those who wanted a more Alieny Prequel, yet it never delivered that Aliens or Alien vibe as far as the Xenomorph was used...  It threw a lot of what Prometheus Fans expected under the BUS and was more about David and his ARC and how this connects to the Prometheus themes and Weyland.. 

It seems everything else was thrown to the wayside.... the Problem is this Sacrificed a number of things Prometheus Fans wanted, but retained some of it... but it also Sacrificed the Xenomorph by being something that is FAR from what people assumed prior to Alien Covenant (Creation of a Mad Robot).

Any sequel would HINGE on setting up HOW/WHEN those Eggs get onto the Derelict, and a lot of Fans would be hoping that its not via Davids Abomination.  With Ridley Scott suggesting the NEXT Movie would not be about Xenomorphs but about AI...

This means those wanting to get to such a Conclusion, and Climax would have to first sit through 2 hours of Ridley Scotts David/AI movie and its Philosophical Themes before we are then brought into seeing HOW things tie up to the Weyland-Yutani Company its Agenda and Special Order 937, we get the Engineers Return and NO DOUBT we see the Xenomorph Arrive! 

This 3rd Alien Covenant Movie and 4th Prequel would be the Climax the War of the Worlds Maybe (or set up for such).   But before we get to THAT JUNCTURE we would get a Movie that i am not sure a lot of Alien Franchise Fans would be keen on seeing....  

SADLY....  i am not sure too many would be interested in such a Venture, and if such a Venture was to not make very much Money, it would leave the Chances of getting the Conclusion that would be more about the Xenomorph and Engineers and Companies Greed... in LIMBO.

I would be interested in seeing where RS takes us next... but it would be something thats a distraction from what the ALIEN Franchise is expected to be about.... NO SOON as they gave us a ALIEN Prefix and how we would eventually be heading to the Back-Door of ALIEN... then Fans are going to expect the next one to be more ALIENY... less David and Certainly that he DOES-NOT create the Xenomorph.

This is all because of caving in to introduce us a Literal Path to ALIEN and the Xenomorph, rather than to Steer-Away...

Prometheus was intended as a BRIDGE were we have the following...

Alien Franchise <== Prometheus ==> Something New

But because Prometheus did not give enough to satisfy any connections to ALIEN for many... it meant they Sacrificed this something NEW... to bring about a literal Prequel Series to ALIEN.

I think we need a Novel to act as a Bridge Between Prometheus and Alien Covenant... set in those 10 years... then another set between Alien Covenants intended Sequel, leading us to the Climax of the Sequel... were the NEXT movie should then take over..

So we essentially have...

Prometheus. MOVIE

Prometheus 2.5 aka Crossing NOVEL.

Alien Covenant MOVIE

Alien Covenant 2  NOVEL

Alien Direct Prequel MOVIE

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Neomorph

Jan-07-2019 3:44 PM

“Alien is undergoing an identity crisis”

To say the least, yes it is, as I’ve stated before. 

Who’s to blame? That’s a good good question. It’s perfectly reasonable that many fans were either disappointed or confused with this completely new direction that tampered with the first film.

It added a whole new scope with the engineers and the origin of mankind into the mix, thus retrofitting explanations to the original film that imo should’ve been left alone or alternatively expanded through James Cameron’s already masterful sequel to Ripley’s sci-fi journey, another example of great filmmaking. 

It wasn’t about philosophy or grand questions about humanity and creation, but about hostile, extremely dangerous creatures, a shady corporation, dark places, tension that builds up, horror, all without leaving the audience with way too many clues and loose ends. 

To be fair to Ridley, I’m sure he was tired of the same yet proven formula and wanted to tell a new story that he felt was interesting and original.

Maybe a lot of people felt the same, but I think it’s safe to say that most fans relate a brand or a franchise to what it was about or stood for, generally speaking. 

 

Chris

Jan-07-2019 6:09 PM

Rebooting is not the answer, not for this franchise. I agree though, Covenant divided more than it brought together. I appreciate Scott's attempt at redeeming what he started with Prometheus but give it some time and I know many will have wished the Prometheus angle was explored further.

Those who wished for the tried and true Xenomorph slasher flick seem to be in the minority. Many Alien fans wanted something more, they wanted answers and wanted expansion. Sadly, the minority were louder and swayed studio execs into focusing more on the Alien and less on the story. The rest of us were patiently waiting for the continuation of what Prometheus started.

I do also agree I think Blomkamp releasing the Alien 5 concepts were planned due to Covenant's marketing ramp up and it certainly derailed a few things. The nostalgia fueled feedback for that project put Scott on blast and clouded focus on Prometheus 2. It's unfortunate, really. Especially since it was all for nothing since Fox put Alien 5 on hold. I think, had Blomkamp waited till after Covenant's release to announce his project, things would have played out differently and I really do think Covenant would have gone a very different way.

I hope the issues with Covenant do not discourage Scott. I want to see how his story ends. Show us the original plan for Prometheus' trilogy.

BigDave

Jan-07-2019 6:17 PM

@Neomorph

I think on ONE HAND you raise some Valid Points, and on the OTHER you lead us to WHY we had Ridley Scott explore what he wanted.   It really does come down to a Rock and a Hard Place.

" thus retrofitting explanations to the original film that imo should’ve been left alone or alternatively expanded through James Cameron’s already masterful sequel"

Indeed this is what i was referring to in my opening statement, some things maybe should have been left to MYSTERY  the personal opinion and ideas we each could FATHOM to some of those Mysteries from ALIEN could be more interesting than what we may get IF we are given the Answers.

But then by NOT expanding on these, we are left with indeed how to continue with Camerons Foundations.. would there be any such more Cameron way to tell us HOW/WHEN/WHERE the Xenomorph came to be.. or WHO the Space Jockey are?  Or are these the things we should LEAVE ALONE?

Which then leaves us with HOW do we expand on the Franchise, HOW many times can we go to the same old Formula before for some it gets Boring? and Diluted?

A Question we had to ask from prior to the Prequels really was WHY do we have the movies follow RipleyWHY after she died in Alien 3 did they have to Resurrect her?

Do ALIEN movies have to be about her just as much as the Xenomorph?   I think in going for Alien Resurrection it lead us down a road were we have to had then concluded that after she killed herself in Alien 3 this maybe was the END to the companies attempts to obtain a Xenomorph. Because why else would they pursue her in Alien 3 and then seemingly after she killed herself, it was about Hundred Years latter before Scientist at USM managed to obtain a Xenomorph Queen via Cloning of Ripley (Yep how does that work out!) but it was needed for Plot Convenience.

So we had to then consider, did this mean there was NOTHING to be had from LV-426 and the Derelict? Leaving Ripley as the only Source of a Xenomorph in Alien 3?  Does this mean there are NO other Xenomorphs to be had?  Not within the area of the Cosmos Mankind had ventured by the year 2379 it seemed.

This left the Franchise with 3 Options... by the Time Ripley had Sacrificed herself!

1) Explore some other way the Company Obtained the Xenomorph (was the Derelict Destroyed) was the Xenomorph found on other Worlds too?   Would they make a movie that does-not have Ripley though? and at this time would having a Amanda Ripley like Story had worked?

2) Explore some-kind of Prequel, were at least we can touch upon the Space Jockey Race and where else they could have tried to use/keep those Xenomorphs.

3) The Alien Resurrection Plot!

They chose Option 3 and by Virtue of being set 100 years after Alien, it kind of limited exploring Option 1 in future. (But would not rule out similar as a sort of Prequel/Parallel Story to the Aliens/Alien 3 Time-line).

Regardless of what they chose Option 1-3 we would have had to ask how many times can we have Xenomorphs, Eggs and Queens before it got repetitive...  Then we had the Games and AVP movies which kind of Water-downed our Xenomorph.

So this left us with the Following Options!

Continue with kind of a Option 1/2 from above...

Or give us a ALIEN 5 set after Alien Resurrection, were how long this was left for by 2010 we then had to contend with a Ripley 8 (who we maybe can assume can Regenerate and so would she AGE) and Miss Weaver being 13 years older.   And by going for such a Sequel... what can it do different to Humans Attempt/Obtain Xenomorph and Queen and Ripley comes to the Rescue?

The other OPTION could had been a Prequel... but then its HOW-FAR and WHEN do you set such a thing if we assumed the Space Jockey was there for Thousands of Years and his Race was NO-WHERE to be seen in Subsequent movies.   This proposes a Problem as how do we make a Movie about a Alien Race and that Cargo in the Past without Human Characters and get Fans to be interested... PLUS the Poisoned Chalice of Touching upon the Mystery could prove Risky if the Story/Plot is not GOOD.  This in Part is maybe the Reason for Ridley Scott to have came up with Jon Spaights the whole Chariots of the Gods kind of Plot.

Where RS felt there was only so much you could do with the Xenomorph, and that the Reasons for its Creation and exploring the Engineers and what else they may have Created, was the way Forwards...  In HINDSIGHT too much connective tissue to the Xenomorph was cut in the process of getting from Alien Engineers to Paradise (which became Prometheus).

A Bold Plot... that distracted a little because it was more about Philosophical Questions and revelations that made the Enigma of the Space Jockey less ALIEN and less HP Lovecraftian.   But None the Less opened up Avenues to Expand the Franchise beyond Ripley, Queens and Eggs

But ALAS.... Prometheus also did-not contain Xenomorphs or more so enough clues to answer HOW those Eggs got on board the Derelict....  and as a Consequence we got Alien Covenant, because in Hindsight Prometheus did-not have enough Xenomorph connections or similar scenes of Plight of Humans against some Alien Horror.

Prior to the Dilemma of where to take a Prometheus Sequel... we did have Blomkamps Alien 5 and these ideas seemed to be gaining a lot of Interest as opposed to a Movie that would steer further from Alien and the Xenomorph.   I think the Hype/Expectation to Blomkamps Alien 5, in part resulted in the U-Turn for Alien Covenant to bring the Xenomorph back.

If i go back to the Dilemma they had prior to making the Prequels and those OPTIONS i mentioned... and if it was felt that a Movie with Ripley was needed... then the only Option really would have been a Alien 5 sequel and then come up with a Solution to explain WHY a Hybrid Ripley 8 would have aged some 10+ years.  Going this route then we have to assume the only way to obtain the Xenomorph would be if ANYTHING survived the USM Auriga Destruction, or via Ripley 8's DNA (which would have been a already done that Scenario).

But NOT if we had Blomkamps more Cameron, Alien 5... were it would have Re-conned Alien 3, but by doing some would have explored that there are other Avenues to the Xenomorph and NOT take us down the route that there is NOTHING to salvage from LV-426 or anywhere else apart from the Queen that Ripley was Gestating.

The problem with this apart from upsetting those who liked Alien  3 and Alien Resurrection, is HOW can it be different and NOT just retread the same things over and over...  Go for a Blomkamps Alien 5 and then what?

Alien 6, Alien 7 and what changes can be made to do something different? Do they continue with Ripley, Pass the Torch on to Newt?  This seemed to be the case!

Alien 5 had some good ideas, and we need to remember it was not to feature Ripley, Newt and Hicks.. it was only when Blomkamp had spoken to Miss Weaver that Blomkamp felt they had to re-introduce that surviving cast from ALIENS but then we have the Age Problem.. but a Retcon could be set 10, 20 or so years after ALIENS.

A Alien 5 that would be a sequel to Alien Resurection would be BUGGED by the Age of Miss Weaver unless we accept the Xenomorph DNA does nothing to stop her growing OLD  and even so such a Alien 5 be it a sequel to Alien Resurrection or Blomkamps Alien 5 would only be able to give us Ripley and Queens so much before it GETS Repetitive and so something FRESH was needed.

PROMETHEUS opened up that for us... but Alien Covenant has somewhat closed those Doors and Wrote itself into a Corner..

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jan-07-2019 6:39 PM

To Continue.....

But explore WHY we went for a Prequel...

Again its one of those Mysteries... maybe ONE that should have been left alone... but i feel for RS... he lost the chance to expand on ALIEN, he had no real input to the Sequels... the FEW things that were never Answered were.

Xenomorph... where/when did it come from and WHY!

Space Jockey.... who was he, and WHY did he have that Cargo!

Once you answer those, then you have to ask WHAT NEXT?

The Answers was there for us all along... just not in a Direct Spoon Fed Manner, for many years RS had hinted to us the Xenomorph was a Bio-Weapon used by the Space Jockey the only thing we NEVER knew was a Bio-Weapon intended for WHO and WHY and HOW the Xenomorph came to be.

Once you ANSWER those... then its a case of how many more times can you show the Xenomorph before you have to have something NEW/FRESH!

It THUS becomes the WHO/WHY/WHEN as far as who the Space Jockey had a Conflict with, and explore who the Space Jockey Race are, and what happened to their Species... that provides the Avenue to give us something FRESH!

This was the Foundation to give us the Chariots of the Gods Plot... in part because this Plot introduces Mankind into the MOLD... because if we explore the Space Jockey has being Alien and in a WAR with a Alien Species from FAR FAR away, then its HOW do we introduce Human Characters into the PLOT?

Hence Perhaps the Prometheus Plot was a Necessity of Sorts.

Another thing is that Ridley Scott as mentioned not long ago had NO INPUT on the sequels to what he would consider one of his Babies (ALIEN) and if NO PREQUEL was ever made... you can bet ONCE the Formula of Queens and Ripley was done over and over... FOX would have potentially at some-point HAD to decide to Answer those Questions as a means of expanding the Franchise and make more MONEY!  And so you can bet RS wanted to Answer those in a way that suited him, rather than in years someone else came along and ANSWERED them in a way that would make him TURN in his Grave...

The Biggest Hindsight is that maybe something more Alien could have been explored but this could have been done in sequels...  The other Hindsight is that Prometheus did-not give enough to satisfy some, to the point they could have closed to the DOOR to Alien and moved on with something NEW in the sequels.

Prometheus 2 was a tough NUT to crack... a LARGE problem is what kind of Movie can be made by Following Dr Shaw and her Answers, and David and his Story Arc, were they discover the Engineers Home-world and meet these beings who MAY-NOT take too kindly to David and Dr Shaw and so HOW do they survive such a Encounter?

They meet these Benevolent Beings who are much more like the God and Angels of Dr Shaws Faith?  Would these beings then be interested in seeing Mankind and come back to us?  But where is the Horror/Threat in that and this is the KEY them of the Alien Franchise and so there could be limits to meeting Friendly Engineers.   But then if they meet Wicked Engineers, then how does David and Dr Shaw survive... and where to they go next as far as where do other Human Characters Come from?

Sadly FOX felt the Quest of Dr Shaw would be a troublesome one to continue, and where do other Human  Characters come into play... and pressure from Fans to have those Answers (to ALIEN) and Xenomorphs... made more sense to then explore the basis of the Alien Covenant Plot.

There are ways around this... i had many ideas to give us Human Characters but steer away from Earth and Alien... but alas... i should have tried to maybe give my ideas to FOX.. and its if they would have listened anyway ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jan-07-2019 7:03 PM

"but about hostile, extremely dangerous creatures, a shady corporation, dark places, tension that builds up, horror"

That certainly is the CORE thing that made ALIEN work and to a degree the other Movies... Those things can be explored but its case of HOW do you use the Xenomorph to accomplish this, how many times can you get away with it, before it just becomes same old, same old?

The Prequels opened up the idea of other FORM's of Horror and there is a very GOOD basis for such a ALIEN/ALIEN 3 kind of Plot, or a Aliens kind of Plot..  to please such Fans, by going the route of what happens when more Humans Stumble upon the aftermath of LV-223, Planet 4 or maybe Origae-6 after what ever David has done/is set to do.

Its the Balancing Act of doing one of these but also to cover David and the Philosophy of Prometheus etc.  I think the Engineers are interested... but many fans may expect their return to be more in vain of the Comic Books.

Maybe the Fans should be given such things... and leave the Deep Philosophical stuff to NOVELS

The Company Agenda was always something interesting to PONDER the pursuit of the Xenomorph to use as a Bio-Weapon that proves to be FOLLY is a Plot that gets repetitive once you go over and over it.

Giving some other Reason for WHY they pursue the Xenomorph other than a Bio-Weapon is the way to go.. which could mean a pursuit of its Genetics for use of Perfection/Engineering... or show us WHY the company admires the Creation because it was created by one of their OWN and thus those pulling the strings and Special Order 937 are AI is something else to explore.

The Philosophy and especially Emphasis on David and AI may fit well with Prometheus..... but a ALIEN Prefix Series that will connect to ALIEN it is a distraction to a degree.  And Fans are going to Expect and Want... " hostile, extremely dangerous creatures"  and less of the Philosophy and AI Elements.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ninXeno426

Jan-08-2019 7:32 PM

Prequels are almost always tricky business.People spend decades coming up with their own theories only to be disappointed that what Hollywood had in mind and what they had in mind are two very different things.

AVP was Alien's first shot at a prequel,yet they had done literally nothing to expand or explore the universe.By killing Charles Weyland they basically sabotaged any chance of them being taken seriously as prequels,that corporate angle that dk talked about in another thread is lost.

I think the main reason that Fox turned Alien Engineers into Prometheus was because of the AVP's.Both had done a good Job of embarrassing both Alien and Predator.So make a soft Alien reboot that's barely Alien.I guess they underestimated how much fans wanted a legitimate Alien film which of course is where Covenant came in.

I recall reading news about Blomkamps Alien 5 and most were happy to report on Alien news that wasn't Prometheus 2.I guess it helped that Alien 5 had been announced some months after Alien Isolation,which not only redeemed Alien from The dismal Colonial Marines but also had been the one thing Alien most everyone had agreed upon since Aliens.Fox had to have thought if a video game can be this good,how about another movie.

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

dk

Jan-08-2019 9:07 PM

The whole problem of a prequel is like nin said- it ultimately disappoints. 

Setting this franchise aside for a moment:

I have a few harsh things to say about prequels in general: it comes off to me as laziness or an admission the writers cannot think of a creative way forward. It can cause more frustration for fans- "well if that's what happened to explain the original movie, what happened before the prequel- and on and on into the past. Lastly, technology looks more advanced in prequels and should look less advanced- the excuse that the Prometheus was more advanced than the dirty old tanker that was the Nostromo because an old tanker of a cargo ship didn't need all the tech for its mission- is a lame one. Everyone knows its because movie making is better and they want to use the most advanced stuff that they can.

I don't think continuing after Resurrection would have been bad at all.

ninXeno426

Jan-09-2019 11:56 AM

I agree,Joss Whedon had an Alien 5 script but Sigourney Weaver rejected it.Prequels are indeed very boring business and they seem to be more popular than ever these days.Why i have no.Star Wars is by far the biggest sinner,Not only do we have George's prequels trilogy but Disney keeps cranking them out with pointless prequels like Solo.Star Trek is stuck in the past with Discovery and these reboots.What I do admire about the Alien prequels is that they at least have expanded the universe in a way most prequels don't. About the Prometheus,According to Ridley the Nostromo is a ship that has been in service long before the Prometheus expedition.Still doesn't account for the 70's tech though lol

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

Docking Ship

Jan-10-2019 8:04 AM

There's a middle ground! What's most frustrating for me isn't that what I'D like to see happen isn't where they're taking the franchise, but that they cant manage to write a story that does actually take a little from everyone! There's a story that can be written that deals with the engineer/philosphical/religious/lore themes AND the Action/Horror/Corporate Intrigue/Monster themes! And after Prometheus and Covenant they're not far off, one more movie could and should close this storyline. Then we can get new stories after Alien 3 or Alien Resurection whatever, that explores the universe Alien Awakening will leave us with. I feel like what's to blame is that they aren't being thoughtful about this franchise, they are just trying to "strike gold". The world available to them is more than enough to create a visually stunning, captivating film that draws from the deep well of meaning that the Alien Universe has to offer...

@DK I totally agree a big  issue with the prequels, and the very idea of them, is that laziness you're referring to. Sure the whole junker/CEO Limo explanation is fine, but it's boring. It would have been so much better if they took the time to actually create a pre-Alien 1979 world. They could have shown the contrast between the Nostromo and the Prometheus while still resembling each other. An easy example of that would have been to not have touch screen tech, instead have at least buttons.. But you know thats pretty nit picky and I can suspend my disbelief no problem!

BigDave

Jan-10-2019 8:51 AM

It appeared FOX/RS were happy at some point with the Alien Engineers route...  the Question they would have to ASK would be WHAT next.... Once Alien Engineers gives us Xenomorphs, if they evolved this Plot to directly Answer what happened in ALIEN then its a case of WHAT next?

More Xenomorph Movies?

The other Elements to Alien Engineers were interesting, and would have been something NEW and Fresh to the Franchise, and if we just had Xenomorphs, then maybe Fans would expect more of the same in Sequels.

Somebody had decided that actually BRANCHING out to explore other Themes in Alien Engineers and expand on them would give them something NEW to introduce within the Alien Franchise rather than the same Xenomorph Formula.    And so the ALIEN Prefix was dropped and other aspects from Alien Engineers expanded upon to allow them to present a Persudo-Prequel that could BRANCH off on a different Tangent!

In Hindsight... they toned down the Xenomorph Connections a little too much, so they could not Close the Door to the Xenomorph and move onto their Plans... Ultimately giving in to what some Fans would have wanted (Eggs, Xenomorphs and Origins Explained).

Regarding the Technology....

The LARGEST difference is actually the INPUT and DISPLAY Technology in the Movies...  Holographic Interactive Display Units, Flat Screen TVs and Colorful Hi Resolution Displays are a THING that 70's/80's Technology just could not give us...

It was hard in them days to create certain things that are from the Future and its why the ships as far as the VDU and other Interactive Technology the Crew Interact with for Information and use to Control aspects of the Ships.  It was just not possible to create such things... back then.

With our Technology and Effects now we can show on screen such things in higher Technology that we are NOT-YET able to really do.... the Holloway Hollogram/Map Scene is a Perfect Example.  We Do-Not yet have such things as common place... but we surely would in 50-100 years... but we can create the illusion of such Technology on screen...

Back in the 70's it was more harder to do...

I actually find the Technology in the Prequels and ALIEN to be closer than you think, apart from Interactive Technologies (VDU, Control Systems) the rest of the Ships internal and external design/look are actually closer than we think.

We need to look at Reality.... and in Terms of Current and Near Future/Past Space Travel or even Underwater.... SIMPLICITY is key!    We have Technology for more Fancy Control Rooms than we see in ALIEN... but our Space/Under-water Technology would actually still use Basic and Simple  Displays etc.... and Current/New such Craft would have more of a of a Alien Covenant Lander Pilot/Control room look to them....   the ones in ALIEN are not Far Far off the Covenant Drop Ships Pilot Room... its only the lack of Flat VDU and the limited Color and Resolution that sets them apart..... which is because of a lack of Technology in the 70's/80s but saying that some Movies did create better Technological Illusions.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jan-10-2019 3:29 PM

The Big Problem comes down to what a Majority of people Interpret a ALIEN Movie has to be about!   And this for the Majority is...

*Xenomorph Organism (or related).

*Threat of this Organism to Humanity/Characters.

*Protagonist/Hero usually Female

*Some kind of Nefarious Agenda (reason for pursue the Xenomorph).

Any movie with the ALIEN Prefix or Association with the Franchise would be expected to include these.  Typically in that ORDER too...

When doing a Prequel.... then at the VERY least a majority of Fans are going to want to know about the Xenomorphs Origins more than anything else...  some even as far as HOW/WHEN/WHY those Eggs came on the Derelict, and a number Expected a ALIEN Prequel to Deliver that!

Prometheus started to go this route... but was changed in favor of concentrating on other Themes, and Creation and the Space Jockey race and how it connects to Humanity and Creation in General... and to set up a SPIN-OFF Series that would Steer Away from the Xenomorph, that Cargo and WHAT happened to the Space Jockey and WHEN!

The Clue was in the TITLE.... hence NO Prefix of ALIEN
but some fans Expected a ALIEN movie and was disappointed!

By doing a U-Turn to give  a Direct ALIEN Prequel route, they have set up the Expectation that these will be very much ALIEN... a second movie about David and AI, that may introduce the Engineers at the End... would have to HAVE its fair share of Xenomorphs because its expected!

They should have gone for a Prometheus 2 that either answered in part the Xenomorph and more about what triggered and when the events that lead to Egg Cargos being deployed on Engineer Ships!  Then allow a Prometheus 3 to not cover such things!

or in part have a sequel that was about a Recovery Mission to LV-223 that would give more clues.... and its latter Scene, set up a "in the mean time" and show us something similar the Crossing...  that allows for a Prometheus 3 to be about what David and Dr Shaw will be doing.... allowing the LV-223 Prometheus 2 to close the door to ALIEN.

I had ideas years ago how to have done BOTH....

But ALAS!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

Jan-14-2019 8:36 AM

Usually there are different parts involved in things like this so I don’t think that blaming one or two persons is the right thing to do. Remember that Lindelof got a lot of crap for Prometheus but I don’t think that he is totally to blame for that. It is like a hockey team, it is not just the fault of the coach if the team doesn’t go that far.

To put this into context I guess that both Fox and Ridley are to blame partially. They should also have gotten writers that could write characters, something that both movies have failed with. Not only is it about writing but they also have left scenes out that should have been in it (the Hammerpede scene being one of them).

“… following the gradual quality decline with the franchise starting with Alien 3.” - NinXeno426

Nah, I like Alien 3 so I don’t think that the movie is to blame. Alien Resurrection is not very good but don’t throw shit at Alien 3 (LOL). By the way, I prefer how they used the beast in Alien and Alien 3 even though Aliens is alright.

My problem with Prometheus was not that it wasn’t a copy of Alien. My problems was the characters and that there were holes in the story-telling (leaving things out that should have been explained better). The Engineers were interesting although maybe explained too little, and I also liked the aesthetics. David and Janek were well made characters too and to a less extent maybe Vickers who I disliked first but the more I think about it at least she is interesting but that doesn’t mean that I like her.

“Complaints aimed at the lack of the xenomorph are a common complaint.” - NinXeno426

Actually I looked around the www for complaints about Prometheus. The major thing doesn’t seem to be about the lack of Xenos but rather about dumb characters that are doing stupid things (hello Milburn).

“That's Ridley addressing Covenant as well as fans.Fans didn't want engineers,they wanted xenomorph and Covenant promises to bring the Starbeast back.” - NinXeno426

That is another misunderstanding, I thought that the Engineers were interesting. New monsters was also a thing about Prometheus that I liked although the Zombie Fifield was lame. Fifield was better as a monster compared to how he was as a human, LOL. As a human he had no redeeming qualities, he was just an asshole and that’s that. If anyone here can find anything positive about him let me know because I have tried.

“David the lonely perfection of his dreams take center stage.” - NinXeno426

Which was a mistake, he was written as a psychotic dictator and it was all about David. I don’t really care about him that much. They could leave him out and it would be OK at least if they would have planned to write him as they did in Covenant (he was more subtle in Prometheus and therefore better).

“The franchise is a mess...”

I totally agree, it can get worse but not much.

Give me an interesting story and well-written human characters that I can believe in because right now there is none. I am not into the novels and comics, I just follow the movies.

“This means those wanting to get to such a Conclusion, and Climax would have to first sit through 2 hours of Ridley Scotts David/AI movie...” - BigDave

Please save me from that shit, I am not the least interested. Another David movie will get thumbs down from me but if Ridley is that stubborn then he has himself to blame unless they understand that it is the human journey that is the important things. A AI movie as in a David movie, will get my immediate dis-interest.

I answer with this Star Wars clip, short but very effective. :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVOrswUcZiA

“Those who wished for the tried and true Xenomorph slasher flick seem to be in the minority.” - Chris

At least that wasn’t my problem. I would have gladly watch more about the Engineers. There are more things in the alienverse than the Xenos. You can add fear by doing other things as long as we care about those that face the danger of which there were not a lot of in AC or P.

ninXeno426

Jan-14-2019 12:57 PM

Thoughts_Dreams I love Alien 3 as well lol.It took the assembly cut to make me love it though.I'm an unashamed fan of all 6 primary films.But the fact of the matter is Alien 3 was hated by most at the time of it's release,and many still do.Whether it's the sloppily assembled theatrical cut,or Hicks and Newt killed of screen,Even the death of Bishop and Ripley taking her own life has been controversial.A division with Alien truely starts with Alien 3.

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

ninXeno426

Jan-14-2019 1:42 PM

"Actually I looked around the www for complaints about Prometheus. The major thing doesn’t seem to be about the lack of Xenos but rather about dumb characters that are doing stupid things (hello Milburn)" That is very true,but there were many initially that were disappointed that it didn't have enough "Alien dna" in the film.The Engineers are roughly just as mixed as the rest of the film,Some fans refuse to accept the space jockey and the Engineers are the same thing.I know there are plenty of theories that suggest they are not,Problem is Ridley says yes they are. The sad reality is that most fans wanted the xenomorph back.Like i said i think the announcement of Alien 5 took a lot of steam away from Prometheus 2,which lead to a compromise in vision.So we get a more streamlined Alien film instead of a straight Prometheus sequel.That's why Prometheus is divisive,It splits the fan base into two.One side just wanted Alien,the other Prometheus 2.Covenant attempted to please both,but failed to really please either.Most people i know hate Prometheus,and prefer Covenant.

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

BigDave

Jan-15-2019 10:32 AM

"i think the announcement of Alien 5 took a lot of steam away from Prometheus 2"

I have to agree it must have had some IMPACT.

"I am not the least interested. Another David movie will get thumbs down from me"

You are not alone on this, but then there are others who are interested in such things.... as i have said before i think such THINGS should be covered in  NOVEL were they can dig deep into such things... and leave the Movies to be more simple for those who dont like to think too deep about stuff and want to see Humans in Peril against Xenomorphs.

"unless they understand that it is the human journey that is the important things"

In part YES... the CORE elements of a ALIEN Franchise should be.

*The Unknown and Fear of it.

*Alien Connection be it Monsters, Culture or Technology.

*The Plight of these TWO things in the face of Humanity.

The Prequels set up to explore the Space Jockey and Human Connection, in context to Creation, Sub-Creation, and the HUBRIS of Creating something, that has the potential to think for itself and be superior.  The Quest for Perfection and Immortality, and the HUBRIS of such Conquest.  

It also touched upon a lot of Philosophical Themes, that all of the above seemed a distraction from the ALIEN Themes that the Franchise was about.

The Prequels were to explore such Themes, through David, Dr Shaw and no doubt Engineers.... 

However.... it may have moved away from the Answers to the Xenomorph, and left them in a situation as to HOW do they bring other Human Characters into the MIX!   The Latter could have been handled in a number of ways...  i always had ideas about that and HOW other Humans could be introduced..  That did-not require them being from Earth!

Taking the Engineers and Dr Shaw out of the Equation and Spoon Feeding in a Group of Humans who were not Executed very well, are whats left us in a Pickle...  The Anchor Points and Stars of Prometheus was David and Dr Shaw and then discovering more about the Engineers.

These were thrown under the Bus to make way for more of a Alien Franchise type Movie, that still tried to weave in some of the Philosophy through David alone!  And handled in a Poor Way to a Degree with some Questionable Plot Choices...

But ALAS they intended to give Answers to the Xenomorph, and bring back the Beast, in a Plot that would have to lead to ALIEN and so this left them limits to HOW this connection could be made.....  and the David Element fits with the Philosophy of the Prequels... but was surely bound to Upset a lot of the Fanbase.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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