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Alien Awakening,Alien 5,AVP 3,or Alien Isolation?What's best for the future of Alien on film?

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ninXeno426

Dec-29-2018 8:40 PM

Inspired by my other thread and various debates I've seen here as well as Facebook.Looking at these options which do you think would be the best for Alien's future?

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

84 Responses to Alien Awakening,Alien 5,AVP 3,or Alien Isolation?What's best for the future of Alien on film?

BigDave

Jan-20-2019 3:01 PM

I think the Franchise could be SAVED... it needs to go and introduce something more Sinister and Lovecraftian more HR Giger but keep some of the Philosophy from Prometheus... sadly the Synthetic Creation Slave thats Gone AWOL and wanted to Eradicate his Creators and their Creators with his Creation ARC is something thats a Distraction from what Most Fans would have expected a Prequel to be about.. while this ARC fits with the Engineers/Mankind ARC but just takes it to that next Level Down on the Creation Ladder instead of exploring the Level Up.

This COULD be the Basis to Evolve the Franchise if we consider the beings here as the Engineers... who ONCE served a Purpose for some other RACE... and they then Rebelled and Overthrew their MASTERS and became the NEW Gods... and there attempts at Creation included Mankind and maybe the Planet 4 Engineers.  They also then Re-Engineered their MASTERS Technology.

Maybe some of these tried to then EVOLVE themselves to be more like their MASTERS?

I think such a Philosophical Plot that can bring the Xenomorph Origin into it, would have worked more than the Android David creates it Plot.

What about the Scale of the Space Jockey, and NOW how they are looked down upon a bit after Alien Covenants Engineers?   We could introduce the Space Jockey as a 10-12ft Humanoid... or something a little more ALIEN but still keep it a Space Suit!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ninXeno426

Jan-20-2019 3:02 PM

That's all true.I feel whatever happens next will likely be a back to basics approach.As it's been said an effective Alien film might be all the franchise really needs.Sort of life the recent Halloween reboot/sequel which discarded anything bloated from it's many sequels and remake.It made Michael Myers who ceased to be scary scary again.

I hate to say it because i am a Prometheus fan,but there is little chance outside comics or books that The films ambitious themes will be explored.And even then these themes have virtually been ignored by almost everything except the Fire and Stone and Life and Death graphic novel series.

Hollywood is hell bent on regurgitating the past these days.Terminator is getting a "proper 3" after various sequels and reboots,just like the aforementioned Halloween.Ghostbusters and Robocop are as well.Star Wars is stuck in a loop of rehashing old plot lines and when they're not they're heavily tied to the classic trilogy.Nostalgia is in,ambition and fresh ideas are out.I'd say whatever Alien is up to next will likely follow suite.

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

ignorantGuy

Jan-20-2019 11:03 PM

ninXeno426 I have searching about Ridley's thoughts on Aliens and here is what I found https://www.quora.com/What-is-Ridley-Scotts-opinion-on-James-Camerons-Aliens. These are only pleasantries, he congratulates Cameron for the success and it states that the movie is great for what it is, a action. There is absolutely no mention about the Queen and ant Xenoes. When I say, that Ridley hates them I base my words on what he does in films. First, he reintroduce the egg morphing in Alien 2003, he made David create the first eggs, effectively eliminating the need for a queen. He also said that his xenos can reform if they are a dismembered, far removed from the xenos in Aliens. Even the reference of David's queen would probably be something entirely different than Cameron's monster, only to piss off fans.

Covenant was already full of nostalgia already (full of References to original and Blade Runner, from lines, soundtrack, images, scenes), hardly can go any lower. And yet you pretend it was so original.

Will see how the sequel to Halloween will go, of course it was successful being made on such a small budget (But you know The Nun made much more). But the movie was a joke, how can one fear a balding white haired loser in a mask, he was just pathetic. The only good thing it was Carpenter's soundtrack. The right idea was Carpenter to make an anthology series, but fans want the same it seems.

dk

Jan-20-2019 11:23 PM

there is little chance outside comics or books that The films ambitious themes will be explored

Who wants to wait another 5+ years for a follow up that will probably polarize fans provided some are even alive? It is time to take the series to streaming where it can branch out and get some deep characters and stories. Theatrical movies are fine but don't seem well suited for sequels and prequels with long development times from directors with other projects going on.

ninXeno426

Jan-21-2019 2:13 AM

Once again Ignorant guy your opinion isn't universal.Halloween seemed to go over quite well with many.I just used as an example of yet another dead franchise was successfully revived after decades of bad sequels and remakes.If Halloween can achieve this then so can Alien.

 

  He also said that his xenos can reform if they are a dismembered

This concept is actually featured in Alan Dean Fosters novelization of Alien which is based on Dan O'Bannon's final draft and what eventually became the movie.

First, he reintroduce the egg morphing in Alien 2003

A scene was actually shot in the 70's and had been seen in various featurates over the years.Fact:With the Exception of Blade Runner and Legend,both of which he felt were compromised by studio interface,all films of his that hit theaters are his prefered cut including Alien.When Fox approached him for the 2003 "Directors cut" he agreed but made clear the 1979 theatrical cut was his definitive vision.The egg morphing scene was purposely left on the cutting room floor.This isn't crapping on Cameron's queen,just reintroducing a previously cut scene.He had actually gone into Alien dc with the intention of resorting all scenes which amount to somewhere between 3 and 4 hours of footage,but ultimately felt it was to long.Instead he opted to edit a new cut that runs around the same time as the theatrical with variations such as new scenes,shorter scenes,and at least one removed.

Covenant was already full of nostalgia already (full of References to original and Blade Runner, from lines, soundtrack, images, scenes), hardly can go any lower. And yet you pretend it was so original.

Very little is free from this these days.Prometheus did it as well.Others such as Terminator Genisys,All new Star Wars,Robocop,new Star Trek,Spectre etc etc.Nostalgia is the death kneel of Hollywood.Yet again movies like Blade Runner 2049 and Mad Max Fury Road are two rare cases of films that didn't rely on reliving the glory days to for cheap fan glee.

 

 

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

ignorantGuy

Jan-21-2019 4:08 AM

ninXeno426

To revive a franchise is to have more than one successful films after various years. Yes, the sequel Halloween will be successful as the whole thing is cheap as dirt in terms of Hollywood movie, but what I said it will be in the same league as the Conjuring franchise.

The thing what you don't want to understand is the reintroduction obscure things into the movie can have a motivation, especially if that contradicts what was shown in future movies. What is in the movie is what really matters to the big public. It does not matter that already for Giger the spacey jockey was a bald humanoid in suit, many of the fans could not accept that.

And there was no nostalgia in BR49, a movie where it plays audio sequences from the original, the technology is made to be retro-futuristic and the replicant dies on the same musical piece? Sure ...

ninXeno426

Jan-21-2019 11:58 AM

The audio is for plot reasons,Not like say Star Wars which has had a nasty habit of constantly rehashes familiar plot themes etc.If you turned The Force Awakens into a drinking game with how many times it references the original trilogy you'd be drunk within a half hour.Blade Runner 2049 is still a breath of fresh air compared to new Star Wars which can't seem to let go of Star destroyers,Tie fighters,X wings,Storm troopers,Death Star 3.0.Disney has proven Star Wars has absolutely nothing new to offer.

Halloween is getting a sequel,it does not need to be Conjuring big,The Conjuring universe doesn't even have a movie that is as successful as IT.Nor is the Conjuring a reboot of anything old.Halloween was successful and well liked that a sequel has been given a green light,should a sequel do well as you noted there will be more.

What motivation aside from restoring a previously cut scene that wasn't part of his definitive cut of the film?I do not sense any sinister intentions to undermine James Cameron's vision.Ridley has never actually written an Alien film for what it's worth,I think people tend to forget that.If anything Black goo it seems is very flexible if indeed the species can be born from it,egg morph,as well as A queen with her hive.I see no reason why we can't have all.

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

BigDave

Jan-22-2019 9:15 AM

Regarding the Halloween Reboot, i have yet to see the NEW Alternative Sequel but from a few people i know who have seen it, they said it was quite good and better than the last attempt.  Halloween H20

But in context to such a thing within the Alien Franchise this would be like Blomkamps ALIEN 5 and by that lets say if such a Movie had been shot last year... it could have been a ALIEN 40 years latter... but how would Fans React to seeing ALIENS taken out of this Canon? or we could have a Blomkamp Route were we have a Alternative Sequel to ALIENS and thus discounts Alien 3 and Alien R

Such a Movie MAY work... but i FEAR once you go this route, then like Halloween we can see it repeated, so for example...  Blomkamp Alien 5 2019 a Reboot of Alien 3 and if it does not do as well as Alien and Aliens... then in 2030 what if we then get another Reboot of Alien 3 like the 2018 Halloween has offered us a 2nd attempt at a Reboot of Halloween 2 and so in effect we have Three Halloween sequels.

The last Halloween is supposed to be better, which could mean another Halloween 3, then 4 etc... its a case of can they keep these interesting before Mike Myers becomes COOKED again?

With the ALIEN Franchise and especially how Prometheus opened up the Franchise there are ways to carry on, that would not have to rely on usual Tropes and Queens etc.

I think at present the Franchise is a Forgotten Memory as far as the Prequels, due to the route Alien Covenant has been...   And with DISNEY as the owners... maybe they would NEVER carry on with the Prequels...

And i would not be surprised if for 2029 they would just have a REBOOT of ALIEN to introduce the Franchise to a New Audience... or make a COMPLETELY NEW set of Prequel Movies that IGNORE Prometheus.

I am not sure we will be getting a ALIEN movie soon... i think there is more chance if we are.. that it would be something like in 2026 with a ALIENS sequel lol

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jan-22-2019 9:28 AM

Regarding Ridley Scott.... i dont think has a dislike for Camerons work.... i would assume he only viewed the way the Franchise expanded after ALIEN as not being something that does JUSTICE to the Potential and Vision that maybe Ridley Scott had back in 1979 as far as where to go NEXT.

It appears that RS feels the Franchise needs something NEW and thought provoking rather than the Run and Hide (Alien/Alien 3) and Run and Shoot (Aliens/Alien Resurrection) Formula.   He also seemed to think the SPACE JOCKEY was the Bigger thing to explore... which is correct when you consider the Xenomorph is JUST a Bio-Weapon that this Race intended to USE.

This has to be the route to cover... but i feel Alien Covenant has somewhat reduced the potential of that... and seems to be more about the Xenomorph in context to David and AI. which fits with the Themes of Prometheus.... but is more a distraction from what many would feel a ALIEN  Movie should be about.

The Engineers were a Good Starting Point..but they lacked that ALIENY aspect to them, Prometheus was Borderline the Ancient Gods and a HR Giger/HP Lovecraftian Tale...

More of the Latter needed to be introduced in a sequel... but instead our Engineers just became much more HUMAN and Weak!

The way to maybe Proceed could be one of Dr Shaws Questions!

*WHO CREATED THEM? (Engineers).

And a comment Ridley Scott made in the months before Alien Covenant, when he announced Alien Paradise Lost.

https://www.slashfilm.com/prometheus-2-title/

“You’ve got to go back and find those engineers and see what they are thinking. If engineers are the forerunners of us, and therefore were creators of life forms in places that were possible for biology to function, who created that? Where’s the big boy?”

*WHERE IS THE BIG BOY?

When combined with Dr Shaws... "Who Created Them?"

Is where the Franchise could get back on TRACK!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jan-22-2019 9:53 AM

The Problem we FACE now... is that Alien Covenant has taken us to a Literal Prequel route to ALIEN... meaning in context of the Franchise Now as of the end of Alien Covenant in the Year 2105 there is NO Derelict or EGGS on LV-426 which means that within 17 Years the Derelict and Eggs will END-UP on LV-426 and likely to be less than that as we can assume the Derelict has not been there for Weeks or Months...

The Set-up also shows us David is in control of the Covenant Ship and its indicated it could be going to Origae-6 which by the time David arrives... we are left with up to 10 years before the Nostromo Arrives to LV-426

LV-426 at Present in the Time-Line 2105 has NO Derelict, and NO Eggs.

Within 17 Years it will have a Crashed Engineer Ship, that contains Thousands of Eggs.

To arrive at that situation with David as the Creator, we have ONLY the TWO Face Hugger Embryos, and have to ASK!

*How do these become Thousands of Eggs?

Do we assume its no COINCIDENCE the Covenant Ship has Thousands of Colonists and Thousands Human Embryos?

*We need a ENGINEER Ship for those Eggs to End Up on!

We have to assume David has no access to any on Planet 4, so he could GO to LV-223... HOWEVER... Ridley Scott claims the Next Movie will NOT be about the Xenomorph... but about AI and "What Kind of a World" would David would Create! 

Which maybe indicates we are off to Origae-6  but there would be 3-4 incoming Parties of which ONE is the Engineers and maybe THIS is where the Derelict will be introduced.

*The Engineer Ship (Derelict) will Crash Land on LV-426!

Which is NOT near Origae-6 but which is near LV-223, which indicates the Derelict may eventually end up heading to LV-223 or leaving LV-223 just as the Space Jockey Event takes Place (Pilot realizes they are infected).

The MAIN Problem we have is that a lot of Fans are NOT pleased with the David Creator route... and more so would not be interested in sitting for 2 hours of a David and what would he would Create PLOT before the Engineers arrive and $^$& hits the FAN!

Then in the After-math i think we would see HOW/WHEN those Thousands of Eggs came to be, and find out if they are being taken to LV-223 or they are being taken from LV-223

Things to take NOTE! is that Ridley Scott has said we are NOT-QUITE there yet with the Xenomorph.. it has some Evolving to go...

I think the Start of this Process could be from what World is David going to Create?  

Evolved/Engineered Human Embryos?

Or a Colony of Synthetics?

Or a Amalgamation of the Above?

These could form a part of the Puzzle that goes into the Evolution of the AC Xenomorph!

With Ridley Scott saying there are 2-3 movies before we get to ALIEN.. i am not sure many fans would want to see the First of these and would rather SKIP to the Last!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

Jan-29-2019 8:26 AM

BD:

You were bored with how they with did Ripley in Alien 3? Interesting, I never had a problem with her until Alien Resurrection when they made the clone thing. Winona Ryder as an android is the reason why I watch Alien Resurrection sometimes. Speaking of Alien 3 I also cared for Clemens and even some of the inmates even though they had done some terrible things because they were well written.

If the androids are well-written I can feel for them also, Bishop (Aliens) is one example. When he gets torn apart by the Queen (a lot of people should have watched it by now so I mention it) I am like “noo” because he is sympathetic and well written. Even when C3PO gets blasted into pieces I feel for him (Star Wars 5). These two have in common that they are well-written so we feel for them (even though C3PO can be annoying at times).

I understand why they did what they did with the David thing but I still think that was a mistake. They should have made David more sympathetic and made the Engineers the threat. Having him as the enemy was bad. Maybe have David connection with well-made human characters to fight the Engineers who in the end take their creations and try to get rid of humans would have been one thing, at least it would be better than what we got. Faris and Lope were not very well-written I think. How was Tennesee like Milburn to you? I never saw him like that even though I didn’t get how he was as a character. To me characters got to have well-defined traits for me to work. Oram had this he was insecure, a scientist, that was still religious, and he made mistakes, I also understood how David and Walter were but the rest were blank slates except for maybe Faris. Whoever was/were responsible for the characters failed. Walter was alright but I can see how you think that he had some traits like Shaw had but he was never annoying to me although Shaw was. Tennesee and Daniels did not have much of a personality to me, I was like “OK, so?”

“I think David gets a lot of the Blame about it being about him a lot mainly due to the Failure for how the Xenomorph was not done enough justice and time, and Daniels Character... which if BOTH were done better would have not made David stand out as much.”

To an extent but even if Daniels would have been done better (which would not be difficult to achieve, why not get someone that knows to how to write human characters?) and if more attention were given to the monsters I still think that it would have been too much about David. Let’s say that 50% of Covenant was about David, even if they would have cut that down to 40% it would not have made much of a difference, right? My point is that they focused on the wrong things which were the androids. Fassbender was good as them but it felt like that is what they really wanted to tell with the movie so everything else became secondary. The problem is that when you shall have horror you got to relate to the humans or else the movie will fall apart, which it did towards the end at least. Also David was too evil so that made him non-relatable to me.

"... it leaves little space to have his Character Redeem himself so anyone can feel any Empathy for him.... "

So screw him if that is the case. There has to be the good guys that I can support, a movie where a psychopath is the main focus does not make me care for the movie. Sure sometimes movies about someone with a questionable morality (doing bad things to prevent something even worse) can be interesting but then there is a need for a balance but now there is not and David just comes across as evil or a psychopath. Not sure who is to blame for this but the franchise does not work when someone with a warped mind is the focus the alien franchise isn't like that and they should have understood it when they started the prequels or at least when they were making AC.

“It appears that RS feels the Franchise needs something NEW and thought provoking.”

The Engineers seem interesting but if he thinks that David is what is thought-provoking then forget it, I don’t like it. Robots have been done before (say Data the robot, or I Robot).

“This has to be the route to cover... but i feel Alien Covenant has somewhat reduced the potential of that... and seems to be more about the Xenomorph in context to David and AI.”

Yup, and that doesn’t work

“The Set-up also shows us David is in control of the Covenant Ship...”

What ever, I am not really interested in the adventures of David or whatever world that he wants to create. He could have wanted to create a planet of various Xenos and I would not care because it is about David.

“The MAIN Problem we have is that a lot of Fans are NOT pleased with the David Creator route... and more so would not be interested in sitting for 2 hours of a David and what would he would Create PLOT before the Engineers arrive and $^$& hits the FAN!"

That seems that it would be worse than AC, at least AC was one hour of David which was more than enough.

 

 A two hour movie about David would be boring.

“are 2-3 movies before we get to ALIEN..“

With the disappointment that was Alien Covenant he would be happy if he will get to do one more, seriously. The company that releases a movie wants to make money and if they do not do well then why support another? I am not interested in another movie like Alien Covenant.

Thoughts_Dreams

Jan-29-2019 8:27 AM

NinXeno426:

I think that the ideas are fine (like what happens when we die, about the place of AI, and so on) the problem is that ideas are not enough to keep me interested. To me the human journey means the most, how characters are written and done and how they interact with each-other. Alien, Aliens, and Alien 3 got this right but then it fell apart. You are right that they do not have to be likable to be interesting, villains for movies in general can be interesting if they are well done enough like the Riddler in Batman for example.

"It's the fact that Ridley is more concerned with the over all scope and concepts than characters"

I am not sure how much of the problem that Scott adds but in his interviews he often speaks about AI, God, and that but he very seldom talks about the importance of interesting characters. Unfortunately this is a problem since he has a lot of say in this and he seems to be much about the ideas rather than characters and that shows in the movie. How much that is his fault can be discussed but he very seldom talks about the importance of characters, for him it seems to be about ideas and ideas are not enough.

"Also it comes from short sited screen writers who more often than not are just guns for hire,no real passion or understanding for the property."

Maybe but they also need to understand what the movies are about. They are not about AI, they are not about the Xeno. Go back to the first three and you will see that it is about characters that face real dangers and how they handle that. When Scott talks about AI and God in the context of the franchise it seems to me that he doesn't understand what the franchise is about. He is a director, not a story guy but he interferes with the story which messes it up. Get someone that can write humans and then do a movie, they should not make another one until they have solved this problem.

ninXeno426

Jan-29-2019 2:12 PM

Well said Thoughts_Dreams,and I agree. I personally am a fan of both Prometheus and Covenant but will admit they have the weakest characters in the series(not counting the AVP's)

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

BigDave

Jan-30-2019 4:09 PM

@Thoughts_Dreams

I felt Alien 3 was good, but it started for me to become a limited route for her Character, i think the ENDING was fitting... if she had survived and we got a sequel about Ripley out to stop the company getting their hands on the Xenomorph i would likely had got a bit fed up of the same idea over and over.

Regarding David.... indeed he has been painting more of a Evil Psychopathic Megalomaniac and to hinge a Franchise on this Character is not going to work on its own, you need some Hero's even if at the conclusion these Hero's Die in a worthwhile Fashion (like Ripley in Alien 3

We really only have Daniels and Tennessee has the Anchor Characters to continue with, and i just never really got Tennessee maybe if he is not a Milburn... he definitely is a Poor Mans  Hudson..  i just never got him as being a serious Character is what i meant, and Daniels is a bit Wooden.... 

There is scope for them... but the ENDING ruins this... because Daniels knows who David is.. and so how does Daniels play any role in the next movie, and interact with the Colony, unless its to show she has been held captive and assumed Dead.... then she escapes and the colony then realize WALTER is not Walter...

What we have then is Tennessee while he may be Goofy, i think he surely would be suspicious of what ever excuse WALTER (David) has regarding the disappearance of Daniels.  and so David would have to get rid of him...

You then have a Movie about the Colonist, and Walter, where Daniels escapes and reveals who Walter is.. and then the $"£%^$ hits the FAN!  You would have to then work out how less/much time do we see Daniels before she goes AWOL (locked up) and in the mean time its about WHO are we going to have as main Characters to interact with Walter/David until the %£$%£ hits the Fan!

some Fans may find it hard, because we have David as Walter but we all ready know who he is and so the THREAT is there for us, we already know where its going to come from so there is no big surprise for US!

You could argue the same for ALIENS... when Ripley is heading on the Sulaco to LV-426 we all ready know those Marines are going to come across Eggs, Face Huggers and Xenomorphs..  the added surprise that we was NOT so much aware of (first time you saw Aliens) was the Queen.

So the Problem with any sequel would be the Fans know who WALTER is and that he is a Psycho we would be just waiting for when he unleashes the Xenomorph or has to deal with the Humans once his Charade is over!

This could WORK... had the Ending left it where Daniels had NO clue to who Walter really was.. the reveal that she knows who David is... and David knows she knows.. really does make things a little hard...

You have to look at the Movie from DAVID as he is in control... and how can he go and either set up the colony and pretend to be Walter, or Create his own from Embryos...  with Daniels alive and knowing WHO he is..  and killing her or hiding her away will ALERT Tennessee that something smells FISHY!

I dealt with this... in my ideas for a sequel... by having Walter (David) have it that Tennessee was to blame for the Deaths of the Colonist, that he and a few others Sabotaged the Mission and intended on Destroying the Covenant.. so it follows the Origins Novel Sabotage Plot...

But then when Daniels is discovered to be alive.. and reveals what Walter/David had said is NOT true then things go to POT!  (off course i had 3 variations of what happens to the Colonist/Embryos but the fate of Daniels and Tennessee is the same in them all.)

The Big Problem is indeed HOW do we introduce other Humans... and HOW well written they are.

Colonist?, Child Colonist, Raised Embryos?  they could all work, incoming Humans? Certainly if they are unaware of the Advent Viral Message and so WHO David is.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

setaverde

Jan-30-2019 6:54 PM

Big Dave, i figgered it out:

The company clones Doctor Elizabeth Shaw and the scientists achieve to create a Deacon in laboratory, using the trilobite embryo extracted from her in human guinea pigs experiments. With This creation, they form a strong aliance with the engineers, because..they worship the Deacon. Walter was also recovered  and repaired by the company. They brought him to earth with shaw's remains, the source of the DNA that allowed the creAtion of an improved Elizabeth Shaw. This Elizabeth Shaw has all the memories of the original and She Tells to the company what David has done to her. Walter tells to the company and to the engineers What David has done to the local comunity of engineers, the habitants of planet 4, and how the paradise was lost. A joint mission, led by doctor Elizabeth shaw, with human and engineer's resources- some "derelicts" and military's human space ships, has a new destination, Origae 6. The final showdown is on the way.

BigDave

Feb-01-2019 4:56 PM

I think it would be a Question of WHY would the Engineers work with Mankind or the Company?

I think possibly the Engineers could make some kind of Covenant with David... but i feel its ONE that one party would likely Break After getting the usefulness from the other and then NO-LONGER needed them.

Certainly more so if David could convince them it was Dr Shaw who Destroyed their World.

To Clone Dr Shaw would be interesting, maybe David could do this, and Matt Hatton who did concept work and some of the ART work that went into Davids Notes... had suggested Davids drawings of Dr Shaw in various Mutations and Experiments could have been him either Resurrecting Dr Shaw over and over... CLONE Dr Shaw over and over.. or just the MAD Dreams and Ideas of a Psychopathic Android.

Getting Dr Shaws Memories and Personality is the Tricky Part... it depends on HOW we look at where the SOUL as such is stored.... can information be transferred from a Dead Persons Brain?  Can Memories be carried over from DNA? etc (we kind of did this in Alien Resurrection so its not totally impossible in context of the Franchise)

A more interesting METHOD would be to wonder HOW MANY Dreams did David watch of Dr Shaw during the Prometheus's 2 year journey and what else could he have had access to via that Dream Visor and if all this INFORMATION is stored someone in Davids AI Brain... then maybe he could find a WAY to Transfer this into a Dr Shaw Clone.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

setaverde

Feb-03-2019 11:19 PM

Well, BigDave, you made a good point, as always. Seeing Prometheus, David seems to watch shaw's memories, but he speaks in dreams. In fact, dreams are made of memories, they make part of a process that reorganize our Minds. If they build Machines capable of reading our dreams/memories, Record memories is not a problem. The ship was destroyed, therefore This possibility is incoherent in alien franchise future.

 

My possibility to firm an Aliance with the engineers was based on religion. you Control my Messiah, you Control me, i Control your Messiah, i Control you (based on the mural, it seems that the engineers worship the Deacon- that was the reason for the company to clone doctor Shaw).

Thoughts_Dreams

Feb-06-2019 7:56 AM

BD:

Yeah I agree, I think that AR was one Ripley movie too much. It was like they were not sure what to do of her so they just threw out a movie just because. They should have ended with how it was in Alien 3.

Well I am not very interested in Daniels and Tennessee because they have no personality. Perhaps they can evolve their personality so we see traits of them that we have not seen but the way that they have been portrayed this far is not good. I am not very interested in any of them to be honest.

"You could argue the same for ALIENS... when Ripley is heading on the Sulaco to LV-426…"

Sure but then the characters are a lot better written in Aliens so even if it is kind of obvious it does not matter because I support them. In Alien Covenant there is no such thing so it becomes like "eh". The characters in Aliens are a lot better so it is almost embarrassing to compare AC to Aliens but that is not to say that Aliens is a perfect movie.

"So the Problem with any sequel would be the Fans know who WALTER is and that he is a Psycho we would be just waiting for when he unleashes the Xenomorph or has to deal with the Humans once his Charade is over!"

That sounds like a waiting game, like when you are waiting for the bus and the bus is delayed with ten minutes it is like "… when is the damn bus coming". This is why I think that it is a failure to focus on the androids because they are not that interesting. If they are in it then keep them in the background if at all.

"WHO are we going to have as main Characters to interact with Walter/David until the %£$%£ hits the Fan!"

Some characters that are well written, get another writer. Look around and find someone that is known for making good characters and keep Scott away from the story writing. How difficult can it be? There are many people that write scripts so someone should be able to figure it out. Story first, human characters second, everything else come after that (monsters, androids, and so on).

"You have to look at the Movie from DAVID as he is in control... and how can he go and either set up the colony and pretend to be Walter, or Create his own from Embryos... with Daniels alive and knowing WHO he is.. and killing her or hiding her away will ALERT Tennessee that something smells FISHY!"

From Davids point of view, is that what you mean? I am not very interested in that no matter how much Scott tries to tell us that it is what matters.

"The Big Problem is indeed HOW do we introduce other Humans... and HOW well written they are.
Colonist?, Child Colonist, Raised Embryos? they could all work, incoming Humans? Certainly if they are unaware of the Advent Viral Message and so WHO David is."

All those things could work I guess, it depends on how they are written and also if they are allowed to be given room. In Alien Covenant everything else got into the background when David showed up then it became a movie about androids. If there will be another one then they got to reduce the role of David a lot so we do not get another Alien Covenant because that would be really bad. It might be difficult to do but it depends on if they want to get people interested. Sure they can go on the way they do now but then they should not be surprised if very few people will care, I don't care about the David story I am like "yeah what ever".

Having something about the WY company could work but the way that Scott wants it to be is just not interesting to me.

BigDave

Feb-06-2019 2:49 PM

@setaverde

I think regarding the Storage of Dr Shaws Dreams and Memories, it is quite conceivable that David could have these stored in his Memory...  WHY maybe at times he could be Haunted by her Memories and Develop a Multiple Personality lol

The Biggest Problem would come from HOW would David Transfer those to a Clone of Dr Shaw or any other Host Body be that Humanoid Flesh and Blood or Synthetic...  i dont think having a reveal that  David by some Miracle managed to obtain the Dream Visor either by (oh he took it with him before they left LV-223) or he goes back to find it... i dont think either would be a good idea, but to serve a Plot Convenience they could do this.

I think IF David actually did care for Dr Shaw, its not beyond reason that he would attempt to Clone Her if he gets the Chance... but a Clone would not have any Memories... (but Ripley 8 seemed too so for the Plot.. they could go that route.. but i think its a Stupid as HOW a Clone can also carry a Xenomorph Embryo as in Ripley Clones in Alien Resurrection).

So a Question would be WHAT part of Dr Shaw did he like... her Physical Appearance? or her SOUL

IF it was the kind of person she is, her consciousness, memories etc..  then as a PLOT they could indeed have David try and use if he can obtain.. a way to transfer HER memories to a HOST... now this may be tricky with a Human/Humanoid....  HOWEVER.... should say a incoming Ship have a Female Synthetic of sorts... then its possible David could maybe find a way to UPLOAD Dr Shaws Personality of sorts to a Synthetic... this could be something interesting to consider.

Regarding the ENGINEERS.... i think it depends HOW they would view Mankind...  we could not have mattered too much to them for they NEVER came back.. 

Did they know about us?

Did they think we was all Destroyed?

These could have been possible if they explored the PLOT that their Home-world was Thousands or Tens Thousands or Hundreds of Thousands of Light Years away...  BUT by Virtue of Planet 4 being indicated as their Home-world.. and being about a YEARS Travel away for Human Ships in the years 2100-2110

This means its likely they KNEW about us... but they must have chosen maybe to abandon us... so any kind of collaboration would come down to WHY they wanted to Destroy us in the First Place and if that VIEW was shared by ALL the Engineers at that time... and then is it a VIEW they would still have?

We have to look at the Engineers POV... what purpose, would they have for US? and if they are wishing to work with Mankind to Tackle a Common Threat then we have to ASK does this mean their Numbers are too small to deal with that THREAT... or would they likely just think..... "if we can fool those Humans to work with us, to Rid of David and his Creation/World, without having to put our Species in the Firing Line... then once we have defeated David... we can Finally Destroy Mankind"

I am not too sure the Engineers would want Mankind going around the Galaxy even with our Technology never mind the use of their OWN!

But with RESPECT... you do refer to the MURAL i dont want to get into too much detail about WHAT the Mural was..  but lets just consider the NUT-SHELL is they at least saw the Creation of the Deacon or using of its DNA as something they found was Important to the Degree they would CREATE a Mural for it.

The Deacon is a kind of Xenomorph..  the Procreation of this Organism, or even the AGENDA to Create Organic Life with its DNA... would require SACRIFICE..

And so USING Humans as Hosts/Sacrifices to Create would be VERY fitting and MAYBE... the Purpose those Engineers had Thousands of Years ago....  Maybe this would be done with some kind of Covenant...

A Symbiotic Relationship to a Degree..  Offer something of Benefit to Humanity, in return for Sacrifices. .... and this could have been WHAT maybe was happening in the Past... the reasons for their Visits...  Mankind/Civilization benefits from the Knowledge the Engineers bring... in return from a % of Sacrifices.

If this is a Plausible Explanation for the Engineers/Human Relationship in the Past... it could be something they could consider in the Future... and so indeed making a Covenant on those Grounds with the Weyland-Yutani Company is something we CANT rule out... i think they would only offer Mankind Limited Knowledge/Technology however.

Or allude the company to thinking the Xenomorph would be some kind of Genie in a Bottle that would offer them Great Reward, when in reality all it would be is PANDORA'S Box!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Feb-06-2019 3:42 PM

"Well I am not very interested in Daniels and Tennessee because they have no personality"

IF i recall you felt the same with Dr Shaw... very Valid Point, but they are something that could be FIXED with a Well Written Story and Character Development.... but on the FLIP-SIDE.. i think i recall you saying that DAVID was the only main INTERESTING Character from Prometheus... but NOW you are NOT interested in him...

I am not BASHING your opinion or claiming any Hypocrisy being shown.... on the Contrary... your Change of Mind goes to show that indeed while its possible on one hand to IMPROVE on Characters... it also shows that Characters who were GOOD can become FLAWED in a sequel depending HOW they are handled.

A Problem we have with Daniels, Tennessee and David is HOW do they interact... considering that Daniels knows about David.... NOW if the ENDING we saw that Daniels had NO clue about David being Walter, and only the viewer was aware.... then that could set up a INTERESTING situation in Future because all three would Interact as though it was Walter, Daniels and Tennessee then the Eventual Discovery by them that Walter is actually DAVID would have lead to a more interesting Scenario than the Limited one we have now..  Which Logically would be David has to KILL them off.

"That sounds like a waiting game, like when you are waiting for the bus and the bus is delayed with ten minutes it is like"

Sadly this is the SAME with ALIENS, Alien Resurrection, and was the same in Alien Covenant.  And to be HONEST.. its going to be the same with EVERY Franchise movie, if they use the same Tropes..

Unsuspecting Humans... come up against some ALIEN threat...  No Matter how you tackle it, we know its only a matter of time before some related Face Hugging, Chest Busting etc.. comes along.

It was waiting for the BUS in Aliens because we knew that going to Hadleys Hope where they lost contact was going to result in that ALIEN Organism that Ripley Encountered in ALIEN would be running Rampant in Number (hence Title).

Aliens had throw away Characters... but what they got right was the Handful or so NEW Characters were more better developed and executed than we got from Alien Covenants.. handful of NOT so Throw Away Characters.

Every movie would be like WAITING for the Bus... its where you then throw out something NEW to surprise the Viewer.. with ALIENS it was the Queen and this was WELL Executed... with ALIEN 3 it was the reveal that Ripley was Gestating a Queen,  with Alien Resurrection it was the NEW BORN which well... enough said about that.... and Alien Resurrection it was the NEOMORPH which was only used as the STARTER to the set up for the DESERT that was the Xenomorph... and both was not executed well enough.  As most of the was devoted to the ENTREE which was David.. which was a bit too much of a Main Course.

By Virtue of a Prequel Fans are also waiting for the BUS as in that inevitable March towards Eggs + Derelict and WHO is in that Pilot Chair.

Introducing Characters in a Sequel... is going to be difficult if we are going to THROW our David under the BUS so to speak.  As far as Character from the Covenant Ship!

Only leaving a Davids Experiments go wrong on the Ship and the Colonist Escape to Origae-6 and BLOW the Ship up kind of a Plot....  But then we have to introduce a THREAT and so there would have to be some way to introduce a ALIEN Organism on the Surface..

The only other Option if we want to GET-RID of David would again be a AFTER-MATH movie were the Covenants Colonist are in EFFECT Written Off apart from a Few Survivors were a Incoming Human Ship arrives at what they thought would be the Partially Set Up Covenant Colony... only to find the place has become a HELL and not a 2nd Eden.

Both kinds of PLOT as a Basis could WORK... they would be NOTHING New though... a Re-hash of sorts... but again IF the Characters are done well, it could be something that COULD work... if not it could be a Alien Trope/Fan Service alone!

The Problem with the SET-UP as discussed in my Alien: Back to the Future Part 3 Thread is that we have..

1) David and the Colony Ship likely heading to Origae-6, where some kind of Colony is likely SET-UP, that then Engineers Return to Planet 4 Discover what went down, and are OFF and SOME HOW know where the Culprit (David) is heading, so they will be INCOMING.. but prior to that its likely another HUMAN ship comes first whos Crew are NOT aware of what happened in Alien Covenant..  and then likely a Weyland-Yutani Ship is incoming WHO are aware of what David has been up to and then we have those PARTIES involved in some kind of a Ruckus

It seems a PLOT that is too much to COVER in a single Movie... one that would be Difficult to get depth to Characters due to the number of pieces that have to come together..

2) From here..... we have ANOTHER Movie that May.. or May-not lead to a Engineer Ship and Davids Eggs ending up on it and by some Coincidence or NOT end up close to LV-223/426.

It all seems like a PLOT that would require that FIRST part to take up TWO movies... but then Fans would just be waiting for that BUS to arrive which would be the Conclusion as mentioned in 2) and so the option would be that 1)  would have to either be TWO movies, a 3 Hour Movie or a Rushed Movie where Character Development is Sacrificed at the cost of trying to cover all the Pieces to lead to 2) The Conclusion.  Because to cover 1) and have Good Character Development would be a HARD task, unless its a 3 Hour Movie or TWO Part and i am not sure many Fans would want to SIT-THROUGH Half of that, they would want to get to the Part when the $£"£% Hits the Fan and Weyland-Yutani and Engineers Turn up.

So the Logical Choice has to be a After-Math where we SKIP past the First Half of that SET-UP Plot..

So its like saying we By-Pass Alien Covenant 2... well say 50-70% of it and have a After-math movie... were we kick off with the First Incoming Party arriving!

In effect this is what Alien Covenant did with Prometheus 2 we all but By-Passed what David and Dr Shaw got up to from LV-223 to Paradise.. and then what happened when they arrived, Right Until when the Covenant Ship arrived 10 years latter... we By-Passed what came before... only showing us what happened via Flash-Back and seeing what David had been up to in his Work-shop and his Dialog with Oram and Walter.

So similar could be done with the Sequel... the problem is what becomes of the Characters from Alien Covenant.. how do you introduce any survivors as far as Daniels and Tennessee?  There could be a few ways around it...

But if we get them given the Engineers/Dr Shaw Treatment, then they cant also do that with David... because then you would have NOTHING to connect with Alien Covenant apart from maybe the EGGS

It would be like if ALIENS was instead a Plot where Ripley was dead.... NEVER survived.. then you have to introduce NEW Characters... which could have worked... i mean the Amanda Ripley Plot from Alien Isolation could have worked.. so we get  Ripley Dead... but a relation goes to inspect.

Problem is Alien Isolation did this, and so to have a Incoming Ship with Daniels Daughter, or Sister etc coming in to Join her MOTHER/SISTER and then Discovers the Covenant Colony is NOT what they expected... and HELL breaks loose... would not be too Original.

Does-not mean it cant work.... but i think David has to be the Connecting Tissue between such Movies... even if he only plays as short role as ASH from Alien... at very least a BISHOP from Alien 3

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

setaverde

Feb-08-2019 8:11 PM

BigDave, I've read Prometheus 2: paradise Lost script (i also read alien engineers script) and, when i mentioned the Messiah of men, our Jesus christ, i was thinking in an hybrid, half human half engineer. The engineers Gave us a messiah because their society also had One, the original, the Messiah of the Messiah- GOD. May be they felt the need of having something superior and, because of that, they worship another hybrid, an half breed, half engineer, half black goo, the Deacon (more stable and rational than the Prometheus's Deacon without the human DNA, a more perfect organism). Can a creator worship it's creation like a disciple worship his god? In the end, we are all bastards.

PS: Jesus Christ and the engineer's Deacon had GOD's DNA.

When you clone someone, you clone a perfect body, with an hollow mind. Then, you have to insert the memories in the fresh Brain, a process of algorythms, synchronies and other stuff. Weyland didn't want to be a replica. He wanted to drink some potion to be Young again (he was searching for the Holy grail). Speaking of the soul, he wanted to create  souls and Gave them to robots. Perhaps, the soul lives in our Minds and, if you create a great mind, you create a great soul. We don't Control our creations, because we don't Control the process of creation. Many discoveries result from experiments that went wrong. That's how humans achieve knowledge, by failure.

Well, tha's why i love science fiction, everything is possible.

I Saw an excellent movie, "replicas", starring Keanu reaves. I recomend.

BigDave

Feb-09-2019 7:29 AM

"Can a creator worship it's creation like a disciple worship his god?"

Certainly, as far as some gratification of their achievement, like a Artist does with a Painting, but also to worship a creation as a God is something that cant be ruled out.

The Messiah Aspect i context to Christ is interesting to ponder, i dont think Prometheus was setting up to be too on the nose as in giving us a Jesus.. Ridley Scott said they pondered a connection but its likely as in that the Christian Religions came from some kind of being who is misinterpreted and then spawned into Religion.

so in context with Prometheus, then indeed its likely the Messiah was as RS mentioned a Emissary and likely a Augmented Human Being or Hybrid so he would be Superior.  who knows how FAR that RS could have gone with this, and who knows if he could thrown the Curve-ball that Christ was actually some kind of Synthetic Being lol

I felt in context to a Emissary that its odd they only had ONE and so i like the idea that there was more than ONE, but most of the World during the Middle Ages must have particularly offended the Engineers and killed the Emissaries while other continents like the Ancient Americas likely behaved in a way or redeemed in a way that was worthy and maybe still lived among their Emissaries i think that would go some way to explain the LATTER Star Maps after say 2000 years ago.

The worship of the Deacon is a interesting subject, some think it was a GOD, some think it was them trying to Re-Create their Gods...  i see it as some Experiment or Organism that lead to their Experiments that had been deemed of Great Importance to them.

My Interpretation years ago was that these Engineers had either used this Organism to Re-Engineer Traits to apply to themselves, or they tried to Evolve themselves and this was a undesired out come that they then saw of Great Importance.

I even pondered years ago, what if those Engineers in Prometheus could not Procreate  and they had a certain role to play, but then coming into contact with something that lead to the Deacon or a More Ancient Related Organism and by Virtue of its Life-Cycle/Means of Procreation it allowed a Engineer to Give Birth to Life, something they maybe NEVER had or had LOST.

With Alien Covenant, and RS comments on those Engineers being the Originals... it made me think that indeed those LV-223 Engineers are in effect similar to Engineers, as Replicants are to Humans.  And so it would be like say seeing a Replicant who cant Procreate, Get Face Hugged and Birth a Xenomorph and then Worship the Xenomorph because it allowed them to Give Birth to a Perfect Life-Form.

A lot comes down to interpretation of the MURAL and what clues we take on board, which Alien Engineers offers a lot to decode that Mystery.

With regard to Weyland i think he was looking at ANY way to extend his LIFE and ideally he would wanted to be made YOUNG again... but i think he would have taken having his SOUL transferred to another Body if the Engineers could have offered him such.  When looking at Prometheus and taking into account the Concept for the Engineers by Jon Spaights, it seemed the Engineers had managed to Manipulate their Genetics to prevent them from Aging as Fast, and to be Immune to Illnesses etc.. but at a COST of making them Sterile... so if we assume this was the case, then maybe they could have ways they can Manipulate Human Genomes to become similar... i am actually drawn to the Plot for Alien Covenant 2 would have been David Manipulating/Evolving those Human Emrbyos to make Augmented/Evolved Human beings... Superior.

Thus David likely creating a Race, just as maybe those Planet 4 Engineers Created/Evolved those LV-223 Engineers.

I am not sure i have seen Replicas... i will check it out, thanks.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

Feb-13-2019 7:32 AM

BD:

It is not that Shaw didn’t have a personality, she had but she was naive and very annoying. Tennesee and Daniels are not very well written but their flaws are not the same as Shaw’s.

.. i think i recall you saying that DAVID was the only main INTERESTING Character from Prometheus... but NOW you are NOT interested in him... “

Prometheus had David And Janek so that is two. Maybe you heard it from someone else or did not remembered it correctly but anyways. As far as not interested in David well I am so and so on that one, robots and technology is interesting and how it can go wrong but at the same time I don’t think that the Alien franchise and its movies is about or should be about robots/androids. They could make him a bit interesting by explaining his motifs more and make him less evil and/or explain why he hates humans. In AC it was just like he was angry for what reason exactly? It either made little to no sense or it was just “eh” but I blame it on a poor script or bad execution of it. David said something like “I will not allow them to start over. . .” but he never explained why. To me he came a cross a bit like a random sadist.

“it also shows that Characters who were GOOD can become FLAWED in a sequel depending HOW they are handled.”

Yes, and that is what happened to the character of David in Alien Covenant IMO.

"Which Logically would be David has to KILL them off."

It makes sense when we look at the story but it is still too much about an evil android.

"By Virtue of a Prequel Fans are also waiting for the BUS as in that inevitable March towards Eggs + Derelict and WHO is in that Pilot Chair."

Yeah but you can make it interesting along the way before they reach the goal so to speak but the prequels this far have failed with that.

"Introducing Characters in a Sequel... is going to be difficult if we are going to THROW our David under the BUS so to speak. As far as Character from the Covenant Ship!"

Then at least limit his screen-time. I would be annoyed if we got another David movie, also I would feel like that would be a dumb choice by Fox, Disney or what ever they are called now. Looking at the box office numbers for AC I guess that shows that very few compared to how many potential watchers there could be are interested in another Alien AI movie I frankly would not give a crap about that.

"But then we have to introduce a THREAT and so there would have to be some way to introduce a ALIEN Organism on the Surface.."

That could be done, you never know what kind of life forms there could be there. Imagine how many potential animals there could be in South America that are not discovered.

"Both kinds of PLOT as a Basis could WORK... they would be NOTHING New though... a Re-hash of sorts... but again IF the Characters are done well, it could be something that COULD work... if not it could be a Alien Trope/Fan Service alone!"

Doing something new is difficult but then they have already tried David and that did not work, if it would have then AC would have done better but it did not. I don't say that you need to throw in old stuff but when the new things do not work you got to sit down and think about how to improve the situation.

"It seems a PLOT that is too much to COVER in a single Movie... one that would be Difficult to get depth to Characters due to the number of pieces that have to come together.."

Yeah possibly but then they might need to go to something more simple because if this movie bombs then it would be bad to end it on a cliff-hanger, just look at AC.

"So the Logical Choice has to be a After-Math where we SKIP past the First Half of that SET-UP Plot.."

I guess so because the way you described it it seems that it would require a lot of time. I would not mind having it as a book, maybe it could be something interesting to read during the vacation in summer.

"But if we get them given the Engineers/Dr Shaw Treatment, then they cant also do that with David... because then you would have NOTHING to connect with Alien Covenant apart from maybe the EGGS. "

Flashbacks maybe? If they do that we do not need to see everything that went on but at least we will see the most important parts.

"Does-not mean it cant work.... but i think David has to be the Connecting Tissue between such Movies... even if he only plays as short role as ASH from Alien... at very least a BISHOP from Alien 3" At least the movie should not be about him

BigDave

Feb-13-2019 5:04 PM

"It is not that Shaw didn’t have a personality, she had but she was naive and very annoying"

Totally Agree with that Statement, its a shame as they could have easily Fixed her for a sequel.

".. i think i recall you saying that DAVID was the only main INTERESTING Character from Prometheus... but NOW you are NOT interested in him... “

This comment may have seen harsh by me, it was not intended as such, it was to show that YOU have made some Very Good Points about how you can have a WORKING Character from a movie, and then Totally Fudge (posh word for F-word) in the sequel... Star Wars EP7 is a similar example... how Characters were done a disservice by EP8 and so i was saying how a Character you can like, can be ruined in a sequel if its NOT done right... on the Flip Side a Poorer Character can be FIXED too.  But i agree its a harder task with DAVID now.

"robots and technology is interesting and how it can go wrong but at the same time I don’t think that the Alien franchise and its movies is about or should be about robots/androids."

Again i can agree... i felt it was interesting but it appears these things are taking Center Stage away from the Space Jockey Race, and the Monsters... so while interesting, by Virtue of a ALIEN Prequel they are a bit of a distraction away from what maybe makes a ALIEN movie a ALIEN movie.  The Prometheus Creators Plot maybe brings the Surreal HP Lovecratian Space Jockey/Derelict more closer to MANKIND and less ALIEN and the sequel about David and AI again is taking it even further from anything ALIEN. And maybe in hindsight Prometheus should have been its OWN thing, that had no Alien Race who looked like the Space Jockey and Derelict, and No Weyland company then maybe it would have been allowed to have done other things.

Without quote everything else... i agree with what you are saying, and very good points... especially this one.

"Yeah possibly but then they might need to go to something more simple because if this movie bombs then it would be bad to end it on a cliff-hanger, justlook at AC."

Which is WHY a aftermath is best.... like AC was a aftermath to what David and Dr Shaw had been up to for the 10 years between Prometheus and Alien Covenant.... we never got that... but a Book would been nice...

And i feel this route is best option next... to arrive at the point when Davids World goes to POT... or the incoming Humans cause it to go to POT.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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