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Alien Awakening,Alien 5,AVP 3,or Alien Isolation?What's best for the future of Alien on film?

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ninXeno426

Dec-29-2018 8:40 PM

Inspired by my other thread and various debates I've seen here as well as Facebook.Looking at these options which do you think would be the best for Alien's future?

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

84 Responses to Alien Awakening,Alien 5,AVP 3,or Alien Isolation?What's best for the future of Alien on film?

setaverde

Jan-13-2019 2:59 PM

Well, well, well.my, my, my. I have to slap everybody. It's the ONLY way to wake up everybody from the criosleep induced by the matrix (i'm being creative, so back off). First, fox should publish a book, publish the alien awakening script, either One, to connect alien covenant to alien 1979 (it should be a good way to celebrate 40 years of space claustrophobic  terror). Second, make a fresh new alien movie without regards to the timeline, a movie that Will survive trough time, by it's own. Prometheus was amazing, by it's originality. Alien covenant seemed an attempt by Ridley Scott to make an improved alien's 1979.

Trilogies are made ONLY to make Money. Any alien movie of Ridley Scott can be watched, without knowing the story of each movie. I think he planned the things This way and that's the main reason to cut off the prologue with doctor Elizabeth Shaw fixing david from the alien covenant movie.

I salute everyone from This forum. I'm a big fan of science fiction. 

BigDave

Jan-13-2019 3:57 PM

Certainly Agree something like this has to be done...

I mentioned we really NEED Two Novels...

ONE to Cover Events Relating to David and Dr Shaw from when she collected his Head/Body until Months/Years prior to the Arrival of the Covenant Ship.

ONE that covers what happens from the END of Alien Covenant, to the point or after the Point THINGS GO TO POT!

THEN.... a Movie set in the Aftermath that either connects us to ALIEN or concludes the Aftermath of Davids Horror Show but shows us these events Do-Not lead to ALIEN

The other OPTION would be the idea above would be a 3RD NOVEL... leaving something NEW to explore for a MOVIE.

Right NOW...... we still dont know what happens to...

*LV-223

*Planet 4

*Origae-6 (and the Covenant)

These places should all END-UP with something related to the Xenomorph, Black Goo and Engineers and their Technology... and EVEN IF NOT..

Are these the only Places in the Galaxy were the Engineers have been/are, their Technology is/was and the Experiments/Black Goo and Xenomorph or Related Bio-Weapons are?

I DOUBT IT...

So there is Plenty of Places to set a Movie that does-not have to connect to LV-426 or Ripley in any shape or Form!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

Jan-14-2019 8:27 AM

I like what Chris says about science and exploration, (science fiction, you know) but still have that fear thing. Prometheus did many good things like giving us the Engineers and the black goo. Those two things should be expanded on I think but what is the most important thing is to have humans to see ourselves in, that we can related to. Many of the ideas in Prometheus were interesting, they failed with most of the human characters which was its downfall. One problem could be that many were disappointed in P so they might think that it is a continuation of a movie that did not make a lot of sense but maybe some of that could be worked on. Do not leave Scott alone or else we will get another movie about David because that is all that he seems to care about.

My three point list with complaints about Covenant:

    • Too much about David
    • Too little about the humans and that the human characters were not well written and or executed
    • No Engineers (those in the beginning do not really count since they were just there for some seconds or what ever it was)

Abandoning the prequels, if that means that it will be vague if the android created the Xeno or not (no matter what Scott says) then I am all for it. Sure some would like to know but then it would also leave us with the possibility that there are those above the Engineers for those that dislike the Engineers being hinted as as the SJ. It depends on what kinds of plans that they have and if they have understood what the criticism of the prequels are. If they still believe what they did after Prometheus then they haven't understood that.

Killing David would be better than to get another movie about him, that is where I stand on that issue. Sure they can keep him but don’t let the movie be about him.

Maybe the Xenos can develop without a queen? Egg-morphing seems interesting, maybe there are other ways that they can make that happen too? We have seen the queen so many times so I am not that interested in it but if they really have nothing better than that then OK I watch it.

Retconning the prequels, it can not get much worse than it is now so maybe if they end up in a totally silly way then that could be an option. Hopefully they can make a third prequel that at least is there with Aliens but I don't know. Maybe let the guy that made 28 Days Later direct it, that would be interesting.

Re-engineered humans like Big Dave says seems interesting.

Thoughts_Dreams

Jan-14-2019 8:29 AM

BD:

I like how she was done in the Crossing, she just seemed to act better there. A character like that would have been a lot better than how she was in Prometheus. You mention Ripley, she is in a league of herself so to top that would be difficult but that doesn’t mean that they can not get a good and sympathetic charter, something that Shaw lacked. Daniels was too much like Ripley and her character development (I hope that is the word) was too rushed yes I know about limitations of run-time but anyways but I don’t think that she had much of a personality anyways.

You speak about a novel, I think that character development should be in a movie and be well done, otherwise it is a failure. In a way I don't blame you since Prometheus was what it was but I think that these things should stay in the movies even if that means cut some parts or give these things less time. Story first character second, everything else comes after that and if you can not build up the characters because you think that more time is needed for more less important things then cut those things to develop the characters.

"... throwing Dr Shaw under the Bus and Engineers was a wasted Potential, just to please the Fanboys!"

Maybe so but it did not help since the problems with AC were bigger than that.

BigDave

Jan-14-2019 9:02 AM

"I think but what is the most important thing is to have humans to see ourselves in, that we can related to"

UNFORTUNATELY... this holds true for a lot of Fans... and it is a True Statement... we have to feel for the Characters, the more we can connect to their Jeopardy the More effect the Action and Horror and Thriller has on the Audience..

Sadly this is something thats not always easy to accomplish, it got to the point with me in ALIEN 3 i was bored of Ripleys Character and so her Death did NOTHING but just had that Symbolism of Sacrifice...   If you cant CARE or CONNECT to any Characters then what happens to them, means nothing much!   

How many people are on the Edge of their Seats with the Characters from AVPR when you know they are in Jeopardy, how many times your on the Edge of your Seat Willing them to escape and survive or accomplish their task?

I watched ARMAGEDDON the other Day, and this had the opposite effect, even though i have seen it 3 times before, you still get that URGE of concern for the Peril even though you know they survive.... 

So i agree its getting that Connection that makes the difference.... The PROBLEM! i mention is most people only relate to Human Characters if they are WELL-WRITTEN and Performed...   This is common for many people... but for some you can Connect with NON-HUMAN characters if they are done well, carry some kind of Humanity or you can get some Sympathy with.

Why Johnny Five was more Relatable than most the Cast of the Prequels... or even Alien Resurrection and AVP movies and he was a 100% Bonafide Robot lol

But in General.... yes you need Characters you can connect with, feel Empathy for... or else it just wont have any real effect.  Usually people can relate to Humans more, especially Humans who we can relate to more than other Humans... why maybe the Space Truckers work in ALIEN, the Oil Rig Drillers work in ARMAGEDDON if your seeing that... this could be ME or happen to someone i KNOW.. then it works better.

This poses a PROBLEM... which a Prometheus 2 would have faced... or indeed a Alien Covenant 2... you would need Human Characters to relate to who are well done... or Humanoid who are VERY well done to pull off.. 

So a Prometheus 2 about a David and Dr Shaw could work to a degree if BOTH Characters are worked well... but then you would always have to introduce other HUMANS to be on the Safe Side... and it was HOW do they do that?

David is a Robot.... Dr Shaw is a bit of a Wooden Human Character.... and they meet what EVIL SOB Engineers and then how do we get any Dialog?

Hence you could see the route they went with Alien Covenant, by having David end up closer to Earth so a group of Humans could turn up.. and be put in Peril!

Sadly Character Execution never worked... only Characters i was concerned about was David.... Oram, and i felt for Faris and Lope a LITTLE... the rest even Walter it did not concern me what happened to them.

Walter was annoying a bit like Dr Shaw...

Tennessee was well just a Milburn to me, and Daniels did-not connect to me even like Vickers did.

"... throwing Dr Shaw under the Bus and Engineers was a wasted Potential, just to please the Fanboys!"

Maybe so but it did not help since the problems with AC were bigger than that."

Certainly.... my point being that you would have expected those to be more of the Focus with David in a sequel... but it seemed to Focus on David too much, and the Xenomorph and Daniels....  I think David gets a lot of the Blame about it being about him a lot mainly due to the Failure for how the Xenomorph was not done enough justice and time, and Daniels Character... which if BOTH were done better would have not made David stand out as much.

With some of the dialog and actions of David... it leaves little space to have his Character Redeem himself so anyone can feel any Empathy for him.... but this does-not mean it cant be FIXED!  But a majority of his Agenda came across as though he ONLY cared for himself and his infatuation to Create, and Create a Destructive Force...

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ninXeno426

Jan-14-2019 12:33 PM

 Characters have never been Alien's strong suit.Even the best Characters with the exception of Ripley and David aren't really developed.But that shouldn't mean they are likeable.Whether they had colourful personalities (Think Parker and Hudson,and the Crew of the Betty)hero types(Hicks)Sympathetic(Clemens)Or perhaps just well written (Dillon)

The problem with the prequels is not that they are 2 hour films,it hasn't been a problem before.It's the fact that Ridley is more concerned with the over all scope and concepts than characters,not too dissimilar from Classic Sci fi authors like Arthur C. Clarke and Isaac Asimov.Also it comes from short sited screen writers who more often than not are just guns for hire,no real passion or understanding for the property.

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

BigDave

Jan-15-2019 9:41 AM

I think screen time can affect what we get, i feel Alien Covenant suffered more with this due to it being a movie that tried to offer a bit of everything but then not offering enough of everything due to limits of screen time.

I do think its a case of WHAT makes a ALIEN Movie a ALIEN Movie and Unfortunately the Philosophical Parts are pushed towards the Top of the Tree.... when a Majority of ALIEN Fans expect other Elements to be given Priority.

I find them interesting, but then i am sure for a Majority a Movie thats pushing itself like a Space 2001 and a Blade Runner Franchise... is a bit of a distraction from what a ALIEN Movie should be about....

Its a Shame because Prometheus was a attempt to offer something different, but by Virtue of not Pleasing Certain Alien Fans, they made a sequel a ALIEN prequel which means Fans expect less of the Direction Prometheus was to set up, and more of a ALIEN Flick... which Alien Covenant tried to do the Juggling Act between the TWO...

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Jan-16-2019 11:40 AM

"I find them interesting, but then i am sure for a Majority a Movie thats pushing itself like a Space 2001 and a Blade Runner Franchise... is a bit of a distraction from what a ALIEN Movie should be about...."

@BigDave

For someone who is known for long posts this rather short one sums up the last 8 years rather well. In Damon's commentary, made before Prometheus was released, he uses a phrase something like "if I have upset peoples childhood I am sorry." He was well aware that by making the Xenomorph a fallen outcome of a fallen creation story it might not go down well and indeed he questioned even then whether they would get a chance to make a sequel that would clarify what we see. I think Ridley believed he could go for the big audience by making Prometheus a broader science fiction story. If he had gone further and deftly showed the origins of the creature and the meaning of the derelict and got on with what he really wanted I am not sure the Alien community would have been any happier because whilst he views it as an iconic creation for a slasher movie, the fanbase worship the creature and want it to have a grand creation story even re inventing it as some kind of echo of God like beings. Personally I find 'worshipping' such behaviour quite disturbing.

Indeed I read a post by somebody who said if its an Alien movie it should have all the tropes in. We argue politely here which is rare but I could not be less interested in more dark corridors, the life cycle a wicked company, a bad robot and no director or medium is going to make that appeal to anyone outside of the hardcore. Blaming the messenger rather than the message is not the answer.

I think as Prometheus grows its cult movie status what Ridley may reflect on particularly if his TV series works is whether he should have attached a story, where faith, knowledge and science go in search of our creators, to the Alien DNA at all. I wish Covenant had never been made but then I would not have enjoyed the challenge of expunging it so I could still enjoy Prometheus knowing what happened in the film meant something and Elizabeths questions get answered though not in the way she could ever have imagined.   

This my final post on the forum thanks to those who have exchanged. 

 

ninXeno426

Jan-16-2019 5:56 PM

Once again therein lies the problem.Prometheus divided way too much.Prometheus's chances would have been better had it not been so connected to Alien,if perhaps it were just a new sci fi series that acted as a spiritual successor to Ridley's work on Alien and Blade Runner,instead of being the "don't call it a prequel "prequel.

In hindsight maybe Ridley and Fox should have took head of their other reboot/prequel series with Planet of the Apes.All three of which earned stronger Critical and fan reception as well as stronger box office numbers.All three well directed,acted and characterized.

Prometheus was a gamble and 7 years later it still divides opinions.For every fan of Prometheus,those who love Shaw...there are just as many if not more who dislike her and this film.Would the franchise have been better off following up Prometheus properly?I really don't know,like i said Prometheus probably would have been better off without Being tied to Alien.It Would have had less expectations that's for sure.Tie it to Alien and there will be expectations.this years emphasis on familiar names like Amanda Ripley and xenomorphs seem to show a want of Alien.Shaw,her search for the truth,engineers....they're starting to feel like a distant memory.

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

ignorantGuy

Jan-16-2019 7:06 PM

ninXeno426 Prometheus started off as a prequel and the rewrites were done when RS came on board. How can you go to the investors and say you know that Alien movie that you wanted to make will be not an Alien movie anymore?

Prometheus could have been made only like this. People don't throw Sci-fi anymore, as money is made by comic books. The distancing, like Scott (or was it Lindelof?) said would have come in the Sequel. However, lazyness, greed and posturing taken that over.

Ps. The problem with the new Planet of the Apes is that after I watched them once, I never came back. I've only seen the second in cinema and I didn't buy any of them on blu-ray.

ninXeno426

Jan-16-2019 11:08 PM

But most actually enjoy the new Apes.They went over better with their respective fan bases as well as the average movie goer.They worked.One person such as your self not caring much for them is a minority compared to the dislike Ridleys Alien prequels have received.

Alien Engineers was a prequel yes,It was Fox's decision to rewrite the script because they desired a new franchise probably due to the poor reception and Box office numbers from Alien 3 all the way to AVP:Reqiuem.Also Lindeloff was hired in 2010 to rewrite,i wouldn't be suprised one bit if Avatar's immense success (Avatar being Fox)had something to do with the desire of a new franchise.After all the original Alien mainly got the green light way back thanks to the run away success of Star Wars.

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

ignorantGuy

Jan-17-2019 1:09 AM

ninXeno426 

Some counter arguments:

1. I don't think that the Planet of the Apes had such a big fan base in 2011 when the first of Reboot series was made, as the last original was from 1973 and the first attempt to Reboot was universally hated.

2. They earned 4.5 , 4.17, and 3.2 times their production cost on a PG-13 rating. In raw numbers, the biggest hit was the second one with 710 million. Is that really such a good formula for Hollywood execs? By your standards (fan reaction, critics reaction and returns) Avatar far outclassed them making more than 6.5 its staggering 425 mil production budget. So why choose the lesser formula? And yes it probably helped that there was no established fan base there.

3. The Alien fan base was already more or less divided between the first and the second movie. Believe it nor Prometheus also brought people in (myself and Michelle) who would have not be brought in by the same old horror tropes of the series.

In short, fan base unity is a pipe dream and I what I think matters is the integrity of the artistic vision, which RS was not even trying to achieve.

But if really think that the David movie did not receive wild acclaim was because of Prometheus, well, go and by more merch, maybe they'll continue it.

ninXeno426

Jan-17-2019 1:20 PM

That's still more financially than pretty much any Alien film.Apes fandom isn't quite as strong as Alien fandom,BUT they have survived ups and downs for over 50 year.Alien Covenant and Prometheus haven't invited as many new fans as those have.

710 million in box office receipts is good money when you consider some Hero property's such as Dr Strange Antman Man of Steel Logan didn't quite make those numbers.Or the fact SOLO didn't even gross half of that despite being Star Wars.

Planet of Apes maintained a consistent presence through the 70's with a total of 5 films,as well as an animated series and live action series.Apes was indeed dead when Rise released in 2011,even i initially dismissed it.But it successfully rebooted the franchise for a solid trilogy,while more storied franchises like Alien and Star Trek have struggled.

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

ninXeno426

Jan-17-2019 2:01 PM

Rise of The planet of the Apes 

Estimated budget:93 million 

Worldwide gross:481 million 

Dawn of the planet of the Apes 

Estimated budget:170 million 

Worldwide gross:710 million 

War for the planet of the Apes 

Estimated budget:150 million 

Worldwide gross:490 million 

War numbers are admittedly underwhelming but still financially successful.

Now compare to the past two Alien films.

Prometheus 

Estimated budget:120-130 million 

Worldwide gross:403 million.

Alien Covenant

Estimated budget:97 million 

Worldwide gross:240 million.

Prometheus numbers are solid,but obviously left Fox in a confused state on how to follow it up.I recall every time i read new announcement regarding Prometheus 2,such as Ridley saying it will not feature the xenomorph,it was met with uninspired reception by fans.Again Blomkamps proposed Alien 5 seemed to take any steam away from Prometheus 2.

"They want Aliens,I'll give them fucking Aliens"-Ridley Scott 

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

BigDave

Jan-17-2019 2:12 PM

I think what we have to look at was the Problem they Faced when they decided to take on the Challenge of a Prequel.

Lets look at the Questions from Alien... and looking at RS comments prior to the Prequels.

1) What Happened to the Space Jockey?

Simple he was infected with the Cargo he was Carrying on his Ship!

2) Why was he carrying that Cargo?

The Cargo was used as a Form of Bio-Logical Warfare that the Space Jockey was carrying.  We NEVER knew the Reason for it was far as WHO the Cargo was intended for.

3) Where did the Cargo Come from?

Again this is something we had NO Answer for, but Logically it was either something the Space Jockey had Created, or Discovered that could be used as a Bio-Weapon or Created from something they had Discovered... or IF not the Space Jockey then some other Race Created/Engineered it.  

Then the Space Jockey had taken the Cargo... HOWEVER i feel the Shared Aesthetic is Key!  The Space Jockey, Derelict and Cargo are connected...   Its the EXPLORING this Connection that was KEY!

ONCE you have Answered the THREE Questions above, its a case of WHERE do they GO Next?

If the Answer was.....   A Alien Species involved in a WAR/CONFLICT with another Alien Species Many Many Thousands of Years ago...

Then the Question becomes so WHERE are these other Species, WHAT happened to them....  And Bare in Mind the Space Jockey Race and WHOEVER they was at WAR with had played NO-PART in the Alien Franchise apart from the Long Dead Space Jockey Pilot.

So we cover a Movie that shows us the Xenomorph Connection, reveals the Space Jockey Alien Race was in some Ancient Conflict with Alien Species that are either LONG GONE... or are located in a AREA of the Galaxy that even at the time of ALIENS is beyond Mankinds Reach!

WHERE do they go then... do they find more of these Alien Species at Conflict, and if so WHERE/WHEN and what aftermath would come from this, because these Aliens play No-Part in our Species Future as far as the Time-line of the Alien Franchise apart from we have stumbled upon their Cache of Bio-Warfare.

Is it a case of RIGHT we have our answers to a degree and NOW BACK to the Xenomorphs?

Ridley Scott and Jon Spaights  and co, decided to explore something with the Space Jockey Race that would OPEN UP the Franchise to something NEW that meant more than just the Xenomorph.

Hence the Ancient Astronaut, Chariots of the Gods Plot came about... VERY BOLD.... but maybe just not Surreal/Alien enough, not HP Lovecraftian/HR Giger Enough.

But this could have been explored the more we climbed up that Creation Ladder!

But ALAS!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jan-17-2019 2:27 PM

I think the POTA Franchise and Fanbase are easier to please than the ALIEN Franchise... i feel it was a easier task to Re-introduce the Planet of the Apes than the Alien Franchise.

I think while Prometheus tried to expand upon the Franchise the Key-Element was the Xenomorph, which Prometheus Did-Not cover enough....

It would be like doing the Planet of the Apes Reboot with a connecting Movie that had not APES in the Title, that showed Human Experiments on Genetics...  and the Study of Increase Intelligence of Species.... and tease that they was then prepared to TEST on Apes...   And say loosely it would be indicated that the Scientific Research company that did all of this eventually did this that lead to say the Future that we had in the Original Planet of the Apes Movie!

POTA Fans may be thinking so this Movie acts as a Prequel to the 1968 Movie or say the 2001 Movie... but then they feel the connections are NOT good enough!

THIS... is what became of Prometheus in the eyes of a number of Fans...

Maybe Prometheus should have had MORE Connections and then gone through a Complete REBOOT of the Franchise... But then some Fans would Argue against this.

The POTA Franchise Reboot was easier to please because it kind of Acts a bit of a Prequel to the Original Franchise, in that it shows us HOW those Apes could have came to be from the Originals.

The Alien Franchise has a more difficult task to do similar by Virtue of  WHERE in in Time do we set our Prequel Series...  could you have set it in the year 2050?  I am not sure it would have worked as well, so the Alien Franchise was Restricted more in Time-Line!

The Clues from all POTA movies which include the Original and 2001 are not too far off the Themes of Prometheus. Its very Fitting to show that Mankind Should not play God and attempt to Improve/Evolve other Life so they gain more Knowledge/Intelligence because the Hubris is... doing so and you can Evolve/Create something that will ONE-DAY over throw your SPECIES.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ninXeno426

Jan-17-2019 5:19 PM

Apes fans being easier to please seems true.In reality Apes had one classic film,a film Some say has aged poorly at that (I disagree)All its sequels were pretty mixed.

Alien on the other hand has TWO classic films,both of which are slightly more renowned than Planet of the Apes.Aliens being "divisive" is actually a really small minority.Fact:Aliens will always be more fondly remembered than Prometheus.Prometheus is more of a cult film,and i'd say cult like the original Tron,a film that's still not universally accepted unlike say Blade Runner which has transcended cult into Greatest films of all time,sci fi or otherwise.

Apes seemed to work by being mostley free of all inclusive  franchise mythos.Same could be said with Mad Max:Fury Road,it's number 4 but didn't depend on knowledge of the first 3 films.

Prometheus was meant to excite the old fan base.I recall reading a story on the film saying it remained to be seen if it would appeal to those who didn't know the difference between a space jockey and a facehugger.

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

dk

Jan-17-2019 9:54 PM

I think POTA was handled just fine- maybe leave the Heston (Tim Burton) movie out. I watched Rise, Dawn and then the OG from 1968 and despite the obvious effects and such, it flowed quite well. The 70s sequels.....they weren't bad but never met the heights of the first movie.

Nice to see POTA get some love!

ninXeno426

Jan-17-2019 11:29 PM

They do.The final one,War is also excellent.For the oldies Beneath was unforgivably bad lol.Escape and Conquest were good,and i never bothered with Battle.And Tim Burton's remake is so bad even he and Mark Walhberg hate it lol

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

BigDave

Jan-19-2019 2:33 PM

I enjoyed all the POTA inc the 2001...

A big reason for me was to Ponder a Origins to both of those Older Franchises (ok the 2001 only had one movie) and to a degree the Reboot gives us more of a Origins to the Tale.

Certainly fits with the Themes of Prometheus...  as in if Mankind Genetically Manipulated Apes to Create a Hybrid, and these could become capable of the same Intelligence as Humans, but are Physically Superior then in Hundreds of Years it could SPELL Doom! for Mankind.

The Same is True for Genetically Engineering Humans (replicants) creating Humanoid AI (David) and we could ponder is this the Tale of the Engineers on Planet 4 and in Prometheus (Genetically Engineered/Evolved)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jan-19-2019 6:30 PM

If i continue with what i was mentioning a few post ago...

We had to really look at what can a Prequel had Covered? What constitutes a Prequel, there are a number of Events that lead to what we have in ALIEN the Movie... and these are the few that Do-Not feature the Derelict or Space Jockey.

1) The Weyland-Yutani Company.  When/Why was there a Merger?  What History do both companies have, what Rivalry and what sorts of things do these companies do?  This could expand to their Founders/CEO (Prometheus did this with Peter Weyland).

2) Ellen Ripley.... do we explore a bit of her History and how many years do we go back before she Enlisted on the Nostromo? 5 Years? 10 years? 20 Years? or cover her Parents... what kind of Movie Scope could come from such a Endeavor?

Going  either Route as a Movie could open up something different to a degree (Especially the Company History) , but Ultimately as a ALIEN connected movie Fans would want to know how/when do we get to the Xenomorph?

The other Element from ALIEN to consider was...

3) Special Order 937... and so we could answer WHAT the Company Knew about the Signal and WHEN?

But going such a route would surely lead us to the Company being aware of the Xenomorph or indeed the Derelict.  If we had a Prequel set about this.... to show HOW Special Order 937 came into Existence then to a degree such a Movie could keep some or all of the MYSTERY of the Space Jockey and his Cargo and its Origin.... 

But such a Movie would basically just be a Re-hash of ALIEN if someone else came across the Derelict Prior to the Nostromo... that Crew come infected with the Xenomorph and send a SOS... and this is when the Company Set Up Special Order 937

Even if we did such a Movie (instead of Prometheus) its a case of WHAT NEXT? The only Answer really is ALIEN and we would still have the MYSTERY of the Space Jockey, his Ship and his Cargo... and some Fans would still expect this to be ANSWERED at some point.

A Movie as such could Answer/Give Clues to some of the things that lead to the Space Jockey... Provided the PLOT was to show the event was something Thousands of Years ago.. But then WHAT?

So the Biggest Thing to cover in a Prequel was the SPACE JOCKEY its via this Species that we could expand the Franchise.

The whole CHARIOTS OF THE GODS Plot was a way to offer something New but also lead us to a PREQUEL because its via the Archeological Findings of Dr Shaw and Holloway that gave us the Star Map that leads to that SYSTEM that LV-223/426 are in.

The only OTHER ways to take us to that System in a Prequel or indeed another World that would somehow set us on a Path to get Answers to the Space Jockey/Derelict/Cargo would have be via..

*Detection of the Space Jockey Signal by either a Ship Near by, or a ship is sent to Investigate this Signal...

*A Ship stumbles upon LV-426 or another World that leads to/connects to the Space Jockey/Derelict.

But such a Route would mainly be a Setting Up a Special Order 937 kind of Movie.   The Question from such routes would be WHAT can this tell us about the Dead Space Jockey, his Species and where to Find them etc.  Never-mind the Eggs Origins..

But maybe NOT.... if a Ship either ends up on a connected World by Coincidence... or in detecting the Space Jockey SOS they ended up say on LV-223... 

So NOT needing the whole Dr Shaw and Holloway and their Ancient Aliens (Gods) Plot to get us to a World that was used by the Space Jockey Race.

But what kind of Discovery would open up the possibility of where to Find more about the Space Jockey Race?  The likely conclusion would be to Discover another Derelict Ship in WORKING Order and use it to be able to take us to WHERE they Came From.

This could have WORKED and would be a Prometheus, and Follow Up... that Does-Not connect the Space Jockey to the Ancient Gods Plot....   They could have explored the Space Jockey with a Plot that was more ALIEN and Surreal..   But its a case of WHAT when we have discovered WHO these beings are and WHO they was in Conflict with?

A bit of imagination and this could have WORKED there are a number of ways they could have covered it..

But they CHOSE... the Ancient Gods.. Plot..

Which may not interest some, but on the other hand its a bit of a TWIST on what fans may have expected... and the Reveal about CREATION and CREATORS opened up the Franchise to PONDER.

*How many Worlds had the Engineers Created and Interacted with?

*Do all these Worlds have very Human looking species, or LESS Human looking.

*They could explore the Engineers History and WHY they Create Life.

*We could explore WHO created the Engineers, and the PLOT could get very ALIEN/HP Lovecraftian.

*Why is the Black Goo connected to creating things like the Xenomorph and Deacon, WHATS the Origin of the Black Goo.

I think we could go ON and ON about the possibilities the Prometheus Creator Gods Plot had OPENED UP.

I think this is where the Franchise could have Expanded upon.... the Question is this still possible after Alien Covenant?

I think so for the reasons of those 4 Points i raised prior...

Earth, LV-223, LV-426 and Planet 4 can-not be the LIMITS to the Engineers PLOT

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ignorantGuy

Jan-19-2019 7:03 PM

BigDave no it is not possible. It will be the same old formula of people being in the dark, chased by the monster.

BigDave

Jan-19-2019 7:35 PM

Certainly... i totally agree.

This was what i was trying to point out... that the route the Prequels took, was the Right Route to have Gone... By expanding upon the Space Jockey Race and giving us a Story to Explore there and a New World of Possibilities.

Maybe they could have NOT had the Gods Plot and arrived at a World Related to the Space Jockey... but again taking out the GODS Plot... so the Prequel never ended up at LV-223 for instance because of a Map TWO Kids  found in a Cave....  But with their Findings and Peter Weylands Quest for Immortality that he banked his last HOPE on Dr Shaw and Holloway being RIGHT... opened up a lot of Philosophy the Engineers as Galactic Genetic Gardeners of Space opens up Many Many Worlds of Many Many Creations..

A None God/Creation Prequel would have taken us either by Coincidence or due to the Space Jockey Signal, to a place we may discover some more ALIEN looking Giant Space Jockey who was involved in some kind of Conflict.

But such a Plot would serve for more of a being in the Dark, Running away from Monsters Horror/Shooter type Flick... depending on WHAT Background they have for the Space Jockey and where they can encounter others of their Kind.

They detect a BASE near the SOS Signal, they Discover a ALIEN Outpost with ALIEN Writings, what can they Gauge from the Space Jockey Race with these... unless there are Details Murals, or someone can Translate by Coincidence some ALIEN RACES Language!

They awaken a Space Jockey... he gets infected with Eggs too... Chest Buster....   then does this leave us to THINK... this was the Space Jockey and THIS was the World that becomes LV-426?

What comes NEXT?

More Space Jockeys awaken or Arrive... but without conflicting the Franchise?

Do we have some Surviving Humans who manage to Figure out how to FLY a Space Jockey Ship and off they go to find where they come from or could be NOW?

The PROMETHEUS Plot despite some Flaws, gives us better explanations to HOW any Humans would END up on a World Connected to the Space Jockey, how some of the Crew could Interpret/Translate clues and Language of the Space Jockey Race.

So Prometheus and its Path made sense... maybe the Engineers were not 15ft, maybe it was NOT enough HR Giger or Surreal of ALIEN... but future movies could have taken us down a more HP Lovecraftian Route... take us on a DARK Journey that also carries with it a lot of THOUGHT PROVOKING Sci-Fi/Fantasy.

In Hindsight yes they could not realize the Engineers Scale they intended with the Drafts.... yes there was NO Direct answers to the Space Jockey Event or Xenomorph Origins (for me there was, just took some thinking to do).  Yes there was no real ALIENS attacking Humans apart from the Hammerpede and Zombie Fifield.

But a sequel could have improved on certain things.... But NOPE they chose to Cave in to some Fan Demands and give us a Literal ALIEN Prequel and bring back the Xenomorph....

I get the feeling RS did-not want to go this route, hence his "they want Aliens i will give them $"%£$^ Aliens" comment..  some think he made David the Creator as a big F-U to the Fans who wanted Xenomorphs as opposed to where RS may have wanted to go next (steer away from Xenomorphs).   I actually understand this route FITS with the Philosophical Elements and Underlying THEME of Prometheus and where RS wanted to take us.

In Hindsight maybe his Xenomorph should have appeared more different and presented as his Perfecting of the Engineers Work.

I think its a shame that we may NEVER get quite the explanation that a Prometheus Franchise could have given us.  And i worry NOW that we would be getting either a ALIEN/ALIEN Isolation kind of Movie in Future... or a ALIENS/ALIEN Resurrection kind... and KEY things will be  Ripley (connection) and Xenomorphs.

In Hindsight, i think some of us can LAMENT over WHAT-IF the Prometheus Plot was not about Weyland Company, the Space Jockey/Engineers and Ships had FAR less a Space Jockey/Derelict Aesthetic and the Alien Monsters not so much a Xenomorph connection...

So they would NEVER be tied down to the Restraints and Expectations of a ALIEN Franchise.. and RS could then make what 2-3 maybe 4 of these Prometheus (not Alien connected) Movies.

And i cant help but Ponder if this was the case..... how many Fans would be like WOW that was interesting... would that have made some Quite Cool way to Explore who the SPACE JOCKEY was ;)

Oh well i guess its back to the Egg Laying, Face Hugging, Chest Bursting and Run, Hide and Shoot!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ninXeno426

Jan-20-2019 12:27 AM

I disagree somewhat.Something more basic isn't really where i saw things especially with Ridleys idea to place emphasis on A.I. over xenomorph as well as the return of the engineers.Blomkamps 5 would have been familiar as would anything Isolation related.Somethings acknowledged Alien Isolation already did such as another special order for example.

On the other hand while I do agree Covenant wasn't quite what Ridley wanted,I don't believe he would have made it though if he didn't believe in it.This is the guy that once said after Alien and Blade Runner he wouldn't do science fiction unless the script was really good.After trying to get Prometheus 2 running,and it seems they couldn't,They finally wound up with Covenant which is a compromise yes but still Ridley Scott 100%.If he didn't believe in this film Alien 5 would have likely happened instead I think.

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

ignorantGuy

Jan-20-2019 3:26 AM

ninXeno426 RS is the same person you said once that he does do sequels yet here we are we Covenant, Blade Runner 2049 (did not direct it, but he was heavily involved in it) and we will have a Gladiator 2. He also said that he does not include sex scenes because he finds sex is boring if you are not making it, and yet he included it in Covenant in the most horror trope way ever. He is not really consistent in what he says, I want I think he only made this film for his buddy Fassy and in spite of Cameron's insect interpretation and to stay in control of the series, and absolutely not because he has something cleaver to say.

The series will only be dark tunnels, chest bursting and hiding and as such it needs to die.

ninXeno426

Jan-20-2019 10:16 AM

One way or another Scott made the film.Like i said Covenant would not have been made with out him,We would have been seeing Alien 5 instead which Ridley was still producing.Covenant isn't very popular,but neither is Prometheus.Ridley actually passed on directing Blade Runner 2049 to make sure Covenant happened.Anything you read About Covenant Ridley speaks with passion about the film.Would Ridley haved prefered a more direct follow up to Prometheus?Probably.Is satisfied with Covenant?Most likely.Both

Prometheus and Covenant are now past.With all the buzz around Isolation related properties yes it's clear that more chestbursting,dark tunnels and hiding are what's in store.As I already said Prometheus was a gamble that more or less failed.This year if anything seems as if they're doing everything possible to distance themselves from Scotts prequels.Actually this is reminiscent of how Star Wars Knights of the old Republic turned out to be better received prequels than Georges movies.Isolation has been a more popular prequel/sequel as well as revisiting Scotts original film than Scotts actual films Prometheus included.

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

ninXeno426

Jan-20-2019 10:35 AM

The series will only be dark tunnels, chest bursting and hiding and as such it needs to die.

This is very hard to do.It's an old concept and maybe even a little beaten to death,but between Alien,Aliens,and even Alien 3 it's what's loved best.What's really needed is a fresh story and quality characters,which people are surprisingly skilled at in other media such as comics and novels.

 and in spite of Cameron's insect interpretation 

That's seems to be a bit of a myth that Ridley feels this way about Cameron's sequel.Ridley actually liked Aliens,case in point both Prometheus and Covenant make nods to Aliens.And Ridley and James planned on making Alien 5 before Fox decided on AVP instead.Ridleys only issue with the sequels was that he was suprised no one wanted to explore where the space jockey came from which he of course did with Prometheus.An exploration many found....unsatisfying.

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

BigDave

Jan-20-2019 2:33 PM

"I disagree somewhat.Something more basic isn't really where i saw things"

My comment regarding that would have been if the Prequels went the route of NOT being about the Ancient Gods connection and say if the Prequel was just some prior Ship either detects the Space Jockey SOS and investigates, or just stumbles upon LV-426 or LV-223 by accident/chance and the Plot then introduced a Giant Alien Space Jockey who had NO connections to mankind at all.

Or more so if the place has NO alive Space Jockeys but the Humans get infected with a Face Hugger or Similar or Black Goo etc...   then i feel it would have been a more basic Plot..

I felt and mentioned that the route they took with Prometheus opened up so many possibilities to give us some really thought provoking Sci-Fi and was the right path to choose.

Regarding RS he does have a habit of changing his mind and saying one thing and then doing exactly the opposite, as Ignorant Guy had pointed out.  With Alien Covenant he had said in the build up, you have to make a movie about the HIM (Xenomorph) and that you have to Evolve Him, and other comments like the Beast Can go a Few more rounds..  and it seemed like he was up for the Introduction of the Xenomorph even hinting that it was a mistake to leave it out so much in Prometheus in Hindsight... to then when Alien Covenant Disappointed.. we had him come out about the Beast is Cooked and he was ahead of the Curve with Prometheus.

Its hard to see what side of the Fence he sits on... i think it is the Fence he indeed sits on... so that he can at least have some Role to Play in how the Franchise Progresses.

He would Sacrifice some parts of Prometheus to allow him to carry some themes over, which he would use David as the Anchor for... he would welcome a Direct Prequel about the Xenomorph... if they allowed it to become a creation of David to fit with the Philosophical Tale that RS was trying to tell.

As far as i recall, RS never had a major Problem with Camerons Aliens... he had even mentioned the Xenomorph had Aesthetics from a Female, a Reptile and a Insect before Camerons BUGS... He even felt the Queen made Logical Sense...

But its just not the kind of sequel he would have done, he would not have focused it on so much Action/Shooter.  He wanted to explore a ALIEN World, a Xenomorph Origin a Connection to the Space Jockey and to explore the Xenomorph being a more Intelligent Species than Portrayed in the Franchise...

Yet the Theatrical Cut of ALIEN i feel the Organism was just a Jason Voorhees in Space!  The DC version showed a Purpose for the Xenomorph, and if RS had ended the movie with the ONE Ending he wanted it would have shown the Xenomorph to be more than a KILLING/BREEDING Parasite.

Ridley Scotts major Frustration with the Xenomorph came from how it has been over played in all Mediums, seen in Games, Comics and the AVP Movies basically made the Xenomorph seem to be not as much of a Danger as Ridley Scott felt it should be.  Even saying those Movies Cooked the Beast and Stuck a Apple (i think) in its Mouth..

Bit of a odd comment from someone who CLAIMS to had NEVER seen the AVP movies though.  But none the less he was quite correct....

Bottom line is something more has to be done than the Xenomorph, you may be able to MILK it a few more times but you have to have some Context where you can go off to something more Fresh once that Cow has been MILKED to Death.

Sadly the Prometheus Themes about Creation, Rebellion and Hubris of Sub-Creating and Evolving  and how much Knowledge your Creation is allowed...  is just a Distraction from what MOST would expect a ALIEN movie to be about.

And more so when these Themes NOW seem to revolve around David and what he would create... as opposed to the Engineers and what else they create.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jan-20-2019 2:48 PM

"Ridleys only issue with the sequels was that he was suprised no one wanted to explore where the space jockey came from which he of course did with Prometheus.An exploration many found....unsatisfying."

To a degree i can agree with that.... RS would have had something more planned for the Franchise than the Queens, Eggs, and Greedy Corporations wanting to get their hands on them Eggs or a Queen but Ripley comes to save the Day Formula.  He felt the Space Jockey was a LARGE piece to that Puzzle (ALIEN) and was surprised that No-One EVER went back to cover WHO the Space Jockey was and explore the Species and their Agenda

Was Prometheus Unsatisfying?

I think it depends.... some fans may have wanted a ALIENS MK2 or similar, Marines, Xenomorphs and Run and Shoot... some would have wanted more of a ALIEN and so Xenomorphs and Run and Hide.

Some just wanted to explore the Space Jockey, and was disappointed it Did-Not connect enough to ALIEN and lacked that Xenomorph Aesthetic and Threat.

For some it opened up a expansion to the Franchise, Sadly its only Fans who would enjoy and get movies like Space 2001, At the Mountains of Madness, and Blade Runner who would GET Prometheus and where it could have headed.

In Hindsight.... it lacked enough Xenomorph Clues, it lacked enough of a Xenomorph Attack/Threat....  and the Engineers Did-not seem as Surreal and Enigmatic as the Space Jockey... yet i find its just the Scale thats the Problem.. they was intended as 12-15ft before Production.

But HR Gigers Concept works already indicated the Engineers, and the Space Jockey being a Space suit.

Everyone is ENTITLED to their own opinions.. i can see some of what Prometheus had set-up may have been a Distraction to what is expected from ALIEN Franchise... especially how the Creation Arc has been Siphoned down to be about David and what AI he would create next.

I feel any ALIEN Prequel that Did-not go the Engineers/Gods route and that introduced the Engineers as a None Humanoid Race...  with NO connection to Mankind... or indeed if they was to want to Destroy Mankind but for no real reason...

Would just have given us a ALIENS meets INDEPENDENCE DAY kind of Popcorn Flick!

in Hindsight and especially nowadays... that route may have actually made them more MONEY.. but i am not sure thats the kind of Movie Franchise RS is interested in.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Ingeniero

Jan-20-2019 2:55 PM

Alien: Awakening please.

 

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