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ninXeno426

Dec-29-2018 8:32 PM

The androids in Alien have often been prideful,and i don't just mean David.It's a trait carried by Ash and even Bishop.

https://youtu.be/rrf0cH4o_g4

Of course here we have Ashes infamous "You have my sympathies" scene.

Bishop is very subtle 

"They can rework me,but I'll never be top of the line again.I'd rather be nothing."

Only Walter seems to be devoid of any feelings whatsoever,and Call is very...human.

Just an observation.Any thoughts?

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

14 Responses to Pride of the Machine.

dk

Dec-31-2018 7:42 PM

I wouldn't dismiss Walter that fast. I would say that Walter did have "feelings"/ emotions although subdued. Let's use a basic definition of emotion: instinctive or intuitive feeling as distinguished from reasoning or knowledge. He may not been funny, hostile or caviler, but there you go. He was probably among the most ethical as well. The same could be said for Bishop imo. 

Bishop: "They can rework me,but I'll never be top of the line again.I'd rather be nothing.That says a lot about self awareness and even humility to admit not being top dog anymore.

I think Ash and especially David displayed the pride trait the most.

BioDegradable

Jan-01-2019 12:07 AM

I like the subtlety Ridley(and others) put into synthetics. It is now retrospectively obvious that films explore more and more that aspect of life, which is synthetic, with a culmination in A:C.

 

I wonder if they mix now the synthetic and organic in next installment (organic being Alien, of course).

 

btw, like it or not, this is the first post on this board of 2019 according to scifed internal clocks :)

ninXeno426

Jan-01-2019 2:35 AM

I wasn't to certain about Walter having any emotion.To me any emotion he seemed to have was something David tried to play on to manipulate him.

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

BioDegradable

Jan-01-2019 3:02 AM

ninXeno426, David knows better if Walter has feelings or not. But at the same time, David pointed out that Walter is a model with restraints or even downgrades - he is more like a machine, not allowed to create even a simple tune. So with Walter it might be the case that he is not self aware of if he has feelings. David might have had the machinery that would allow himself to be introspectively self aware. Apparently, Walter wasn't gifted the chance to exercise that freedom : recall, Walter discovered that he in fact could play the flute, but he was not aware of the fact if he could or couldn't. Same with feelings - he is not aware if he has them or not. There.

ninXeno426

Jan-01-2019 1:09 PM

That's a curious thing about Walter not carrying a tune.Have you seen the deleted scene where Walter is whistling?I actually forgot about it.

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

dk

Jan-01-2019 6:57 PM

Interestingly, it can be argued that people also have imposed constraints-self or otherwise hindering their potential. Individuals like David could be viewed as artists, dictators or sociopaths- ultimately master manipulators to the unthinking or innocent  "herd". 

Walter correctly recognized that David was suspect and could have protected the Covenant but became confused and caught off guard by his "enlightening". It would have been better if Walter would have stood fast. So there is something to be said for constraints. It may not serve the individual, but it can protect the larger whole.

BigDave

Jan-02-2019 5:44 PM

I know the Emphasis on AI is not to everyone's Cup of Tea!

I agree its been a bit flawed in how it was handled.... some may think AI has no space in the Franchise, some it should be kept to minimum!    The idea RS had however are NOT something he has just came up with!

The whole Creation/Sub Creation Plot has been covered as a back ground plot in ALIEN RESURRECTION.   The Autons a Creation by Synthetics, and you can bet they rebelled against their Synthetic Creators too...

So a Good Question when we look at the rotting Paradise that was Earth at the end of Alien Resurrection is WHO is the dominant species on Earth?

Humans?  Synthetics?  or the Autons?

Would the Autons really want to Protect Mankind?

I am sure there is a PLOT there that is not too dissimilar to the themes RS wanted to explore in his Prequels. So before the Prequels AI and Sub-Creation always played a BIG part behind the scenes.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ninXeno426

Jan-03-2019 12:07 PM

Prometheus and Covenant's ai arcs are remarkably similar to Blade Runner with David and Peter Weylands relationship being very similar to that of Roy Battys and Elden Tyrell's for another example.

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

BigDave

Jan-04-2019 6:05 AM

I think the biggest intended difference with David is that he was Truly Sentient.   The Prequels were trying to show us that many things influenced what lead to how David had became and so KNOWLEDGE is key.

Adolf Hitler is considered one of the most Wicked, Cruel people to have ever Walked the Earth.  What would he had been like if he was brought up the same way by the same people from a Baby as Winston Churchill and Vice Versa?

With Walter, Ash and Bishop they have limited Programing and while we could assume some of them are GOOD... they are neither Good/Evil they do as they are commanded. 

We could look at something like the Manchurian Candidate Conspiracies, but when we look at such a thing in context to a Robot then these kinds of SLEEPER Actions can be programed into a Robot...

Walter could have a Sinister Command Programed into his Systems that he could be activated to Carry Out and then after this Command has been carried out he could have NO Recollection of it.

Bishop likewise could have had a Secret Order, that he could Carry Out and then NOT be aware of it... for example he could have got those Eggs on the Sulaco.

The one if FIND the most interesting to Ponder is CALL.. well the Autons, and what makes them Tick, their History in more depth. 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Jan-05-2019 3:25 PM

@ninXeno426

I am going to assume your linking BR to AC is the prologue. That said I really enjoyed your remark about Batty/Tryell. Batty like Weyland asked his creator for more life and Batty recognised in saving Deckard the nobility of sacrifice.

Interesting though not surprising when you listen to Damon's P commentary that the cornerstone of P and the key emblematic theme of P both came from B.R.

Prometheus is a remarkably simple story which places mankind's creation on the same footing as the replicants. What should have been dealt with in the follow up is how far that relationship mirrored the replicants, who were slaves a convenience for their masters, and of course with knowledge (David) along for the ride where did he fit in.

In years to come I suspect we will look at the riffing in P of the various Xenomorphic outcomes and it taking centre stage in the follow up as an intrusion on a much more interesting story where two elements of creation reveal to each other the true nature of their relationship.

Is it Prometheus or Pandora or are they merely reference points which lead us to a more horrific truth. Or more simply who put Kane over the Egg and who was the Egg intended for.     

ignorantGuy

Jan-05-2019 9:29 PM

Michelle Johnston

Do you differentiate between knowledge and wisdom? As David never seems to Learn nothing, does not understand poetry and quotes movies partial to give meenings which were not there in the original source.

ninXeno426

Jan-06-2019 12:31 AM

Michelle Johnston yes indeed.There are other similarities as well such as Prometheus where David says to Shaw doesn't everyone want to see their parents dead?Roy Murders his father in Blade Runner.Both even seek a life of their own,whether it's freedom from their creator or death.

Nothing the God of biomechanics wouldn't let you in heaven for 

Michelle Johnston

Jan-06-2019 1:30 AM

@ignorantGuy

I think the answer to that question is that the creators, in this case the script writers and director, failed to recognise that with a Robot who was designed to understand humanities feelings and respond to them in kind would eventually see the gap between knowledge and wisdom. My sense is that in Prometheus once David attains an emotional agenda and rides it he concurrently begins to make errors of fact and judgement which almost ends in catastrophe and an eternity alone before his power cells wear out. If you go beyond the Crossing in my view the creators, John Logan and Ridley Scott, generate a story which not only abnegates the acquisition of wisdom but denies him the one quality in Prometheus which whilst double edged could once freed from Weyland have lead to everything, namely his curiosity. Whilst he was asking questions and working things out he had a chance but by the time he arrived at Planet 4 he was a series of prejudices. Good art tells you more about the world in which we live bad art tells you about the prejudices of the artist. An enquiring robot could learn more about the creation he has come into a bad robot merely exercises his prejudices which he has become shackled with.

BigDave

Jan-07-2019 8:35 AM

" What should have been dealt with in the follow up is how far that relationship mirrored the replicants"

In part i am drawn to this was the purpose of Prometheus and route any sequel would have taken... but on Multiple Layers... i think it would have taken us to show the next layer is David and he also follows that Plight of the Replicants, were he is a SLAVE for us... and i was lead to the path that when we are shown the Engineers we would again see the same plight in they are the Replicants to their own Creators... and it would have been interesting to see how FAR up the Ladder (or down) we go as far as this Multi Layered Creation/Rebellion Story.

Regarding David and his misquotes...

I think it was to show us that David has started to suffer with Flaws, related in part to any lack of Maintenance and Upkeep but also to highlight his Emotional/Human Qualities... were being ALONE for so Long, and having to deal with very Human Emotions can lead to a being becoming Unstable!

RS is trying to bridge that Gap Between AI and a Sentient Emotional Being.... and to not have us view that AI no matter would ONLY ever be just a Machine!

A number of years ago i was taking on such things with my Prometheus 2 idea, which was to explore how Making AI that can handle Complex Emotions and then be used to Transcend a Human Soul... was NEVER going to be perfect and that a AI could NEVER truly handle such Emotions and would become Unstable/Go Mad! 

My Plot was to reveal the Real Reason for Davids Creation, was to create/test the Almost Perfect Humanoid Body to be used as a Semi-Immortal Vessel for a SOUL and while Weyland accomplished this.... he could NOT replicate a AI that could Cater for the Transfer of his own SOUL.. his Memories, Emotions and Experiences.... the attempts to do so lead to a AI that could not handle these Emotions etc that would just have a MELT-DOWN...

Hence Peter Weyland turned to Dr Shaw/Holloway and their chasing the Gods for a last ditch attempt to get IMMORTALITY.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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