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Who Needs a Cooked Beast When You Have James Cameron?

Who Needs a Cooked Beast When You Have James Cameron?

ScorpioStar

Dec-09-2018 12:59 PM

James Cameron cooked the Beast in "Aliens" - and the victims on the Titanic - but some people still don't plead guilty to his crime.

For those above, there came Disney - good luck with Neill "Mummy Mummy" Blomkamp's possible version of the remastered dead left far behind.

And "Avatar" 1, 2, 3, 4, 5...

For some of us, "Alien" should have died a clean death with Ripley in 1979, so there wouldn't have been a chance for Cameron or the shadow of a "Mummy Mummy" Blomkamp.

Open to discussion, of course.

36 Responses to Who Needs a Cooked Beast When You Have James Cameron?

dk

Dec-09-2018 2:36 PM

The beast can stay but it doesn't need to be the main focus.

I Raptus

Dec-09-2018 9:33 PM

Much untapped potential in the Neomorph, there is. 

 

Leto

Dec-10-2018 1:54 AM

dk

 

Disagree. The beast must be in the main focus. Engineers, humans, WY, AI (especially), black goo - just around. Engineers, probably not, but another themes is so boring.

 

And the beast isn't cooked, of course. We still haven't seen smart aliens. And, I think, need another movie with alien hive on eggmorphing base. We still haven't seen Ultramorphs, btw. Eventually, need Alien movie with true Space Jockey biomechanical decorations and aliens inside (yeah, AVP2 has a great setting, just replace predators on engineers and greatest dark sci-fi movie is ready!).

Thoughts_Dreams

Dec-10-2018 6:46 AM

I take Aliens over the prequels any day because Aliens had better characters. Despite of this Aliens feels a bit dated, like you can tell that it is an 80’s movie, I am not sure what it is though it is just a vague stupid feeling that I get. My reason for saying that it is a stupid feeling is that I dislike when I can just say that it is a feeling that I get and can’t explain it intellectually, bleh.

Alien 5 is nothing that I am interested in, at least if that means retconning Alien 3. Even though it would not mean that I still am not interested in it. Ripley did fine in Alien 1, 2, and 3 but then it should have ended. This is not to say that I am a huge fan of the prequels, there are some characters that are alright and there are some interesting ideas, monsters, and landscapes but the characters are mostly lame.

DK is right when he says that the beast can be in it but not be the main focus. To me it is more about the human adventure and what you do when you face a dangerous situation. Because of this Alien and Alien 3 are the best movies this far. Different monsters are all fine but if I can not sympathize with the characters then it does not matter how great the effects are or how interesting the monsters look.

Maybe the alien is not cooked but it must not be shown very often. Keep it in the shadows because the imagination is often more powerful than any monster. One example is when you hear the Wampa kill the Tantaun in Star Wars five, you never exactly see what happens so therefore you can use your imagination to fill in what you believe happens. Leto is totally correct that the androids should be in the background otherwise it gets boring (AC is a prime example of this where the androids were given most of the attention and the rest was not handled well) and I also agree that it would be interesting to see an Ultramorph. What I do not agree with is when he says that even the humans should stay in the back for the monster since for me the human characters are the most important thing.

BigDave

Dec-11-2018 5:45 PM

I think it depends how we look at the Xenomorph, and i have to agree it has been Cooked... There are a number of reasons for this....   The First Time we saw the Beast, it was Special, kind of Unique and how it was used made it Scary.

The same could be said about the First Few Freddy Movies and First few Jason Movies.  But the more these Scary Villains/Monsters are Shown, the more they just lose their Effect.   This becomes Repetitive and what does not help is once it is NO-LONGER Fresh and Movies are made purely based off the MONSTER alone and you get some Stinkers! 

This applies to Jason Voorhees and Freddy Krueger too once they started to use the same Formula over and over and a few Poor Movies came out, then the Characters lost their Credibility of HOW SCARY they Originally were. 

The same happened with the Xenomorph, especially after AVPR and the Problem with the Xenomorph compared to Jason or Freddy, is the Xenomorph is NOT Immortal and so it becomes even LESS of a THREAT

Not only Movies like Aliens, Alien Resurrection and the AVP movies but also the Comics and Video Games show us the Xenomorph while Dangerous, is a Threat that the Well Trained and Equipped can deal with.   The countless Xenomorphs killed in Comics, Games and some of the ALIEN movies and AVP means the Xenomorph is simply not the same as a Jason or Freddy, it comes into the Category of Vampires, Zombies and Werewolf's!

Its Life Cycle is Unique and Gruesome the Face Hugger, the Chest Buster etc... but once you have seen this done over and over, it NO-LONGER has the same Effect.

The Beast was revealed as some kind of BUG by Cameron, but we have to remember that RS had said before ALIENS that the Xenomorph was meant to have some Insect and Reptile Traits with a Feminine Beauty to it..  Cameron did not invent the BUG idea so to speak....

Lets look at the Xenomorph before ALIENS!

We have Thousands of Eggs... which means if the Cargo got to Earth we could basically have a AVPR on our Hands... and see Hundreds if not Thousands of Xenomorphs...  while seeing them go around Egg Morphing would be shocking.... the Theatrical Cut showed us they basically go around Hunting and Killing!

The Face Hugger could be Cut and Bleed, and so we can assume the Xenomorph in ALIEN if it landed on Earth and was faced with 10 Marines with Pulse Riffles... it would end up in a Acid Bloody Mess!

This is unless the Xenomorph is in a Environment it can use to Stealthy take down the Humans a Few at a Time!

AND ALAS..... this is what made it Work in Some Movies...

And so the points that Thoughts_Dreams makes over and over are VERY VALID! The Xenomorph is more Scary when it Lurks in the SHADOWS... but it is more Scary when the Characters are in a Jeopardy against the Beast and are not Equipped to deal with the Situation.

In Alien those Humans were not Equipped or Trained to deal with the Xenomorph, they had not idea what they was in for, and they had no means to deal with it... The confines of the Ship suited the Xenomorph, even if they attempted to Shoot it and KILL it then they risk a HULL Breach!

Had they encountered the Xenomorph on a Planet that had a Breathable Atmosphere like Planet 4  they could have attempted to escape into the Open and take what Weapons they had (Guns) and would stand a better chance should the Xenomorph attempt a attack in the OPEN.

This would not have made for a Intense Set of Scenes, not like it did in ALIEN and this is purely because itst he situation of being Helpless that made the Xenomorph Scary.   The same Applied to ALIEN 3

Compare Aliens Colonial Marines or AVP Games with Alien Isolation  and we can see the same effect that the difference between a Alien/Alien 3 has and a Aliens, Alien R and AVP movies had.

If we added a extra element to Alien Isolation where you played instead a Team of Marines in Space Suits Armed to the Teeth, the Xenomorph would not be as much of a threat, it would have to HUNT the Marines using Stealth and the Marines would have NO FEAR of shooting it, because they have Space Suits and so a HULL BREACH would not be a major issue.

Then we have to come back to Thoughts_Dreams again, were indeed, the less we care for a Character, the Less Sense of Helplessness they have, the LESS the effect is.

With the Xenomorph it has to be about HOW it is used, and then the Characters who are faced with the Dilemma Threat have to be ones we can connect with and be put in a Plight that is Helpless.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Dec-11-2018 6:03 PM

Also again as Thoughts_Dreams mentions sometimes its what we DONT see off screen that lets us imagine the worst.

I think we also need to look at the Xenomorph as it is...

When we first Encounter it (Alien not AC lol) we had to ask what was the Purpose of those Eggs?

Was it some kind of Alien Organism the Space Jockey Encountered and attempted to take away to Study/Re-Engineer (similar to the Star Beast Plot)...?

The Answer even as far back as after Alien appeared to be NO.... it was not Coincidence the Xenomorph and Derelict shared a Aesthetic and so it was indicated (and confirmed by RS) they was both Created by the Space Jockey Race for the Purpose of WAR... a Bio-Weapon and means to Deploy it.

With such a ROLE, it limits the scope for how SCARY the Xenomorph is, where its only its appearance, the way it KILLS and Procreates that is what makes it Fearful...

Once we have been shown this, there is only so much you can show of it, before it becomes nothing special...

It is then the Purpose and Agenda behind WHO and WHY would someone Create Such Horrific Bio-Weapons that becomes the more Sinister Objective... Hence the Prequels Plot to show the Engineers did it.... changed to David did it.

Thus there is only so much Snarling, Face Hugging, Chest Busting and Killing that can be done before it gets Stale/Repetitive and with NO History/Agenda for the Organism apart from being a Engineered Creation intended to Destroy...  it really limits how FAR and how MUCH we can show the Xenomorph over and over.

This is where you have to Evolve the Organism, have them become Sentient and intelligent and basically do with them what has been done with APES in the PLANET OF THE APES.

Maybe they can Evolve on there own? But to what Level and how long would it take?

Having a Plot were someone attempts to Re-Engineer and Harness the Organism, at a Great Hubris that allows them to Create a Variant that then goes on to Evolve into some kind of Sentient Species with a Agenda, Goal and Conquest is maybe the ONLY way to go.

This may take away some of its Natural Killer Instinct and Feral Nature.... but thats maybe a Sacrifice thats needed.

I think some of Blomkamps ideas could be the way to GO... if done right, but certainly ditch the Ripley, Newt and Hicks and Retcon Alien 3 concept!

The only other way is something FRESH which the Prequel ideas had, but NO soon as Prometheus 2 became a ALIEN Prefix... then Fans are going to expect the Xenomorph to play a LARGE Role!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

dk

Dec-13-2018 11:33 PM

Here is an idea likely to be unpopular:

Explain the Space Jockey fate. This can be tricky.

The original vision was an egg silo per HR Giger. BigDave expertly demonstrated the proportions of size and scale from the Juggernaught and the silo. It seems the budget couldn't handle that vision in 1979.  

Anyway, explain how the SJ got facehugged and the hole got burnt into the Juggernaught floor. Maybe it is best left a mystery, but it would be the most interesting thing to be explained. A PRIMER: Maybe the facehugger buggered off after impregnating the SJ and burnt into the floor. That would at least explain not finding it near the SJ. BTW- it would have been a BIGGUN to hug that SJ.

Thoughts_Dreams

Dec-18-2018 11:25 AM

It kind of depends on how they use it. Really I think that the demystification started with Aliens where they became canon fodder. Aliens is an OK action movie but the alien was scarier in Alien compared to Aliens but they are two different genres so that might explain it.

Movie monsters very seldom scare me, world events do and movies are fiction, so. They can be but then they must be done and used well.

To me the Xeno can be a part of a movie but not what the movie is about.

Perhaps new versions that are less known and that are also deadly but in different ways can be used but then how many times can that be done? Maybe Scott wants to show us that AI is dangerous but I do not think so since it is man-made so to speak and the Xenos are not. To me Xenos are scarier than robots.

Both the beast and the pilot should have been frightening and they could be. The unknown of the pilot is what made it frightening at least to me perhaps even more so than the Xeno or at least it seems more menacing now when we have seen the Xeno so many times. I mean, if a pilot would carry a plane filled with bio-bombs to a country and try to bomb it, that would be scary and the same applies to the SJ.

".... the Theatrical Cut showed us they basically go around Hunting and Killing!"

Which is why it would be lame to show a movie where the SJ have successfully reached earth and dropped the Xeno there. If they just show us that they crashed then we can imagine how it would be if it reached our planet or if many of them did so. Because they wrote it the way they did it means that we can imagine that scenario even if we are not shown so to speak, that is more scary if you use your imagination.

"This would not have made for a Intense Set of Scenes, not like it did in ALIEN and this is purely because itst he situation of being Helpless that made the Xenomorph Scary. The same Applied to ALIEN 3"

This why it works better in 1 and 3 since there it is just not only to shoot it but they have no weapons so they got to try to figure out more interesting ways to get rid of it. Sure you can not shoot it but when that is out of the options then what do you do? To me this is one of the reasons why Alien and Alien 3 work because it is not about shooting it, you got to try harder so That is scary.

"Also again as Thoughts_Dreams mentions sometimes its what we DONT see off screen that lets us imagine the worst."

Exactly, one thing that happened to me some days ago is that I lost my keys so I started to panic when I thought about what could possibly happen (it went fine in the end though). It was all in my head but I did not see where it was. The same thing applies to scary things in movies about what you see and do not see.

"Then we have to come back to Thoughts_Dreams again, were indeed, the less we care for a Character, the Less Sense of Helplessness they have, the LESS the effect is."

Yeah, I also think about this that they say that the Xenos is cooked and that there were many failures after the first three movies. I would like to argue that the prequels have also done damage to the franchise by demystifying the monsters combined with characters that we do not care for. They also have not managed to make the Engineers horrifying enough even though they could be if they get another movie right but it would take a lot of work. If done right the Engineers could replace the Xeno as a threat, unfortunately how they were done in AC did not help one bit.

"With the Xenomorph it has to be about HOW it is used, and then the Characters who are faced with the Dilemma Threat have to be ones we can connect with and be put in a Plight that is Helpless."

Yes

"It is then the Purpose and Agenda behind WHO and WHY would someone Create Such Horrific Bio-Weapons that becomes the more Sinister Objective... Hence the Prequels Plot to show the Engineers did it.... changed to David did it."

Unfortunately they have both demystified the SJ and the Xeno in the prequels but that is a risk that they took that did not work out well. Add to this the fact that David created it which makes me think that has made more damage to it then the over-exposure that they did with it before. Especially AC made it worse.

"Thus there is only so much Snarling, Face Hugging, Chest Busting and Killing that can be done before it gets Stale/Repetitive and with NO History/Agenda for the Organism apart from being a Engineered Creation intended to Destroy... it really limits how FAR and how MUCH we can show the Xenomorph over and over."

Sure but to make it about a crazy and sadistic robot is not the answer.

"… but thats maybe a Sacrifice thats needed."

At what cost though and what to replace it with? They tried but they failed and now we have it centered around an asshole robot which no one likes and it is all about him and F everything else. I know that this comes off as drastic but they are driving the car (the franchise) in to a ditch so to speak (by focusing on David at the cost of everything that is not David). Sure some might dislike the bug aspect in Aliens but this is far worse, a lot. What is also a bit sad is that one of those that is a part in effing it up is one of those that started it that adds his own often bad ideas into it and screws it up.

"The only other way is something FRESH which the Prequel ideas had…"

A lot of the ideas are interesting but the execution often does not work enough in the prequels, unfortunately.

ScorpioStar

Dec-18-2018 3:25 PM

Fans of "Aliens" often complain about characters badly developed (on Prometheus and Covenant, that is).

But I ask those guys: how many of Cameron's sequel characters were there just to get killed and how's their level of stupidity?

Oh! But they were poorly developed characters of Marines by the All Mighty James Cameron, right? 

Apart from that, let's talk about the beast and how it was easy to be run over with a tank - Cameron's poor idea on how to kill a brilliant ideia that was not his to start with and make it cinematic for the 80's audience.

Cameron cooked the beast and his fans not only can't take it as they hate Sir Ridley Scott's attemps to renew it. Thus the controversial box office.

 

dk

Dec-18-2018 6:14 PM

ScorpioStar I respectfully disagree on some points.

I enjoy the character development of the entire Quadrilogy and find it lacking for the prequels except for David and a couple others who showed promise but were killed off before they could develop.

Aliens characters were well developed regardless of screen time. Apone for instance, didn't have much screen time, but his loss was felt- a loss of Leadership. The Marine characters were typical hooah types from that time when Rambo and male military bravado was popular.

The hive aspect of the alien and how they could be mowed down was not a big deal to me. Their strength was in sheer numbers- consistent of actual hive creatures.

Cameron did not cook the beast. He expanded the possibilities. 

I will attempt to one up you on cooking the beast in general. Ridley Scott dropped the ball by not following up on Alien in the 80s- Cameron seized the opportunity to progress. RS came along way later and wanted to do prequels. He lamented on how nobody perused the SJ and went from there. 

 

 

dk

Dec-18-2018 6:37 PM

Thoughts_Dreams 

You bring up many interesting points. 

Unfortunately they have both demystified the SJ and the Xeno in the prequels but that is a risk that they took that did not work out well. Add to this the fact that David created it which makes me think that has made more damage to it then the over-exposure that they did with it before. Especially AC made it worse.

That statement sums it up. There hasn't been any real scare factor since A3 imo. The creatures don't scare anymore. The unseen implications can and do scare and that is the direction things should go if the general franchise wants to keep its horror roots.

Gavin

Dec-19-2018 5:25 AM

The Alien is a movie antagonist, and like all other movie antagonists in horror movie's its goal is to kill. If the Xenomorph is cooked then so too is the genre of horror. As it currently stands Ridley Scott is right, the beast is cooked. But before you call me on "didn't I say Scott was wrong before", let me clarify...

In Alien we had the Xenomorph stalk and kill all but one of the crew. This formula was repeated in Alien 3 and to an extent in Alien: Covenant. Like any experience, the first time is always the best, repetition of the formula has led to a predictable and tired antagonist. James Cameron understands this. The T-1000 is an entirely different beast to the T-800 in the original. Thus when he made Aliens he didn't recycle the formula of the first movie but instead evolved the threat from a singular killer to an overwhelming horde.

As I said the beast is cooked, but only so long as Fox recycle the creature. However, if the creature is evolved in some new, refreshing way that stays true to the core appeal of the franchise then the beast can become relevant and prominent again. Ridley was right, and wrong at the same time.

As for the focus of any future movies let me say this - In a new movie titled after a lead character, we expect to see that character in a leading or pivotal role (Predator, Terminator, Spiderman, Batman, Godzilla). Any movie featuring a lead character in an indirect fashion should not carry their name in the movie's title. In an Alien movie, audiences, both fans and generally, expect at least one Alien, same as with a movie titled Superman audiences expect Superman. The Alien is the prime focus, the anchor of the franchise. If you want to do a movie about Engineers or Colonial Marines or Weyland-Yutani then such movies should be spin-offs of the main franchise and not titled as an 'Alien' movie - Prometheus being a case in point.

ScorpioStar

Dec-19-2018 1:15 PM

I have an extended version of "Aliens", where Newt, her brother and her parents go check the spacecraft we all know from "Alien".

How come Newt's parents found it suitable to go check an alien spacecraft with children on-board in their kind of "urbane" colony vehicle?

You may say the scene didn't go on for the theatrical version, but Cameron shot it anyway - because Cameron is what he is.

I loved "Alien 3", for it was an atempt by David Fincher to recover the atmosphere on "Alien".

Who hated it and why those hated it so much?

My guess: Cameron's fans, as usual, who want more of the same and won't let it go.

I do respect people who think Cameron is a great director, for everybody has their motives. But my opinion is that he is the worst thing that could ever have happened to the beast we all hate/love.

Nobody miss the Queen Alien Cameron created, for anybody - man or woman or dog - can be a "mother" for the creature, afterall, it is a perfect organism, it does not have to follow the rules as we know them (Mommy+Daddy=Baby).

dk

Dec-19-2018 1:28 PM

I hated A3 back in the 90s but it grew on me after repeated viewings and it is rock solid to me now and has aged well- in part possibly due to having no advanced technology on the colony.

Aliens remains solid too but the director's cut with the Hadley Hope part is superior. I will only watch the director's/extended cuts from the Quadrilogy.

There is no reason why someone can't like all of them. I guess it is just a matter of opinion/tastes.

 

ScorpioStar

Dec-19-2018 1:49 PM

Dk,

When I watch a sequel, or #2, #3, #4 or whatever, I play close attention to what I feel after watching it.

When I watch "Aliens", I miss "Alien" and I dream of "Alien 3".

"Aliens" in my opinion lacks something very, very basic I can't explain - and I blame Cameron for it. He has always been a Disney person and now he's home with his "Avatar" sequels and whatever he's up to.

Can you imagine a Cameron's hypothetical version/sequel of "Thelma and Louise", "Gladiator", "Blade Runner"?

Can you imagine what the "Alien" universe would be like if there hadn't been a Cameron's "Aliens"?

For the better or worse, I can - and I picture it as a far better universe. Maybe the beast would be far more respected/hated/loved now.

dk

Dec-19-2018 2:00 PM

I doubt anyone would have picked up the franchise if Cameron didn't first. Remember that in the 80s, at least in the US, action movies- especially military based ones, were huge. Aliens fit the bill and brought back a tense sci fi experience too.

I still want to see Cameron's Deep Sea Challenge movie.

Yes, Cameron can put off a lot of people but I like his cinematic results.

dk

Dec-19-2018 6:01 PM

 

Maybe the beast would be far more respected/hated/loved now. What does that mean?

ScorpioStar

Dec-20-2018 12:52 PM

dk,

I respectfully disagree.

Cameron is, when I think of it, a block buster director who is so lost in his own lack of mind space he insists on the same title on and on again (AVATAR).

I won't say Sir Ridley didn't make mistakes - his "Exodus" was a historic mess. But when it comes to versatility and mindfulness...

When it comes to movie language...

Go check on IMDb.

Pleople here think on Cameron just because of "Aliens", I despise him (as a director) not only because of that.

But now Disney and Avatar Cameron will get it their own way.

Mark my words and see how bitter the end will be for the rest of us far left behind... - and, maybe, just maybe, you'll be among us.

Gavin

Dec-20-2018 1:38 PM

We could all argue both for and against James Cameron and Aliens, but I suspect regardless of what anyone says ScorpioStar's opinion of Cameron will not be changed, no matter what the argument.

But, in a vain attempt I will say this - Cameron gave us the Queen, which has been featured in Alien 3, Resurrection, AVP, AVPR and referenced in Covenant, nevermind its numerous video game and comic book appearances, whereas the adaptive nature of the Xenomorph hinted at in Alien, with the exception of Alien 3's dog/ox-burster was not revisited until Prometheus and Covenant.

Also, for better or for worse because of Aliens, we got Halo and Starship Troopers.

ScorpioStar

Dec-20-2018 2:08 PM

I agree, Gavin

My opinion on James Cameron as a director and "Aliens" as one of his works won't be changed.

I don't actually care about an Alien Queen created by Cameron (too humanized for a perfect organism that could have been conceived as a hermaphrodite and didn't need a subservient court of males around), as much I don't actually care about AVPs and games and the sort.

But the real point is that, no matter what I think, Cameron will win in the end (for he is a big shot at Disney now, with his everlasting/family friendly AVATAR) and his fans will eventually be confronted with his final vision of the Alien with shooting Marines and the whole package they've been dreaming of.

What comes next?

Let's just wait and see - consciousness beats hope every time, for the former knows, the latter is what it is - a dream of an awaken (but not necessarily conscious) man.

dk

Dec-20-2018 9:54 PM

I will meet you half way. I never saw Avatar except for a trailer and some bits playing on TVs at Best Buy back in the day and was not impressed. Your comments strengthen my resolve to never watch it. I have to respect the gobs of cash it raked in and how theaters built screens to accommodate it though.

BigDave

Dec-21-2018 9:02 PM

PERSONALLY....

The Franchise is quite Fractured as far as peoples opinions, and a  lot of people may dislike Camerons ALIENS but then a lot of people like it.

"Ridley Scott dropped the ball by not following up on Alien in the 80s- Cameron seized the opportunity to progress"

Not quite true/fair..... Ridley Scott was busy and the reasons why a Ridley Scott ALIEN 2 are similar to why PROMETHEUS 2 never happened.... RS was busy, after ALIEN he had a number of Projects, just as at the time of working on a Prometheus sequel RS was then working on the Martian and Exodus Gods and Kings but also we need to look at FOX for being the main ones who change things.. ALIENS Ended up different to a degree than what RS had thought a sequel to ALIEN would have been, and indeed Alien Covenant to a degree is also different to what RS had intended for a Prometheus Sequel.

But to be fair to Cameron, he had to take what he was given as far as ALIEN and look mainly at the Theatrical Release, and to interpret how to expand upon this  based off what ALIEN showed us... and you cant really FAULT what he did considering that.... HE and FOX could have followed through on ELEMENTS that was not included for ALIEN that was intended or indeed from the STARBEAST Concept which ALIEN came from.

If you looked at ALIEN with No Knowledge of the other movies, then you could imagine ways to expand on this , but then Camerons ALIENS would kind of make sense. 

Looking alone at ALIEN you would not be aware of the concept and ideas that Starbeast had and so Camerons Queen Concept made sense... and the ALIENS Xenomorphs did display Intelligence...  you could argue that the Original ALIEN (minus deleted scenes) showed the Xenomorph to be less Intelligent to Camerons BUGS and basically just doing exactly what the Xenomorphs in Alien Covenant were doing... which is KILL KILL KILL.

"How come Newt's parents found it suitable to go check an alien spacecraft with children on-board in their kind of "urbane" colony vehicle?

You may say the scene didn't go on for the theatrical version, but Cameron shot it anyway - because Cameron is what he is."

Just a case of sometimes certain things have to be done to drive a Plot Home... if the Jordans never investigated and proper strict protocols were in place to check the Derelict out then the lesser chance of the Xenomorph Outbreak and THUS we get NO Hadleys Hope Outbreak and death of most of the Colonist. Which would mean NO ALIENS movie as far as what we got.

Regarding the Xenomorph Scare Factors/Cooked.  

It has been Cooked a bit, its been shown and done over and over, relegated to a Bio-Weapon, that can be killed by Humans and Predators with the right Technology..

The only way to make it Scarier is to introduce a Purpose and Agenda for the BEAST which may have required looking into some Concepts from STARBEAST.... but it seems they stood by with the Status Quo that the Xenomorph was a Created Bio-Weapon.

Which then leaves us with the Purpose and Agenda behind whoever would CREATE such a Bio-Weapon as being the way to expand on it, and introduce us to something more Fearful and this is the Purpose they chose behind Prometheus and Alien Covenant (despite changes to WHO and WHY it was created).

The Holocaust was a Horrific Part of History , but it is the REASONS behind such Actions that differ it from a number of other Genocides, and its the Reasons for Hitlers Actions that are more Horrific than his Actions themselves.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

dk

Dec-21-2018 10:28 PM

You may say the scene didn't go on for the theatrical version, but Cameron shot it anyway - because Cameron is what he is."

This is about the whole Hadley's Hope/Newt's family bit. That whole scene fleshed out the movie quite nicely. It was probably chopped for time constraints in the theater. The scene mentioning Amanda was chopped too and would have been a nice addition as well.

dk

Dec-21-2018 11:55 PM

 Ridley Scott was busy and the reasons why aRidley Scott ALIEN 2 are similar to why PROMETHEUS 2 never happened...

I have to disagree and will not let Scott off the hook. Cameron had no shortage of demand at that time either and was busy. Scott had enough clout at the time to advance the franchise but chose to not do so. I like how the Quadrilogy played out.

Back to the OT- in hind sight, I think Scott cooked the beast if it has been cooked. He teased us at the end of Prometheus with the Deacon. AC was ok, but he may have done better to stick to his guns instead of saying "I'll give them fu^^ing Aliens". 

BigDave

Dec-22-2018 4:04 AM

"RS came along way later and wanted to do prequels. He lamented on how nobody perused the SJ and went from there. "

I think that was what was they had plans for, and at first the Prequels would have had something that would have pleased the Fan Boys... RS had even way prior to the Prequels, he had concluded that in his opinion the Xenomorph was merely just a Biological Weapon that the Space Jockey Race used and Engineered.

The Problem is ONCE we go this route and do a movie that confirms HOW/WHEN the Xenomorph was Created and WHY it becomes difficult to then Proceed with other movies after revealing the Xenomorph is to the Engineers just as a Chemical Weapon is to Mankind.  (i am talking about at the time the Prequels were being conceptualized).

The other thing not answered in ALIEN and something that had never been show was the Space Jockey Race, and so this is when THEY had agreed that you maybe dont need to do a Movie that has the Xenomorph, for us to find out who the Space Jockey was and then also potentially what role the Xenomorph was to them.   A Movie like Alien Engineers if this was made, would have had Xenomorphs but then it would have lead expectation that a sequel would have to also follow the Xenomorphs, because just as Gavin had mentioned a movie that contains the ALIEN Prefix would have been expected to have the Xenomorph, and then a sequel would also have to have the Xenomorph if it was a ALIEN Prefix too... but if the sequel they dropped the Prefix, it could make some not make a connection that its a sequel to Alien Engineers.

The dropping of the Prefix for Prometheus was intended to allow them to show us a Movie thats connected to the Franchise, but would not be going to connect directly to the EVENTS of Alien.  Thus setting up the potential to explore the Engineers and Steer Away from that Cargo on the Derelict.

But again FOX had decided to change the Plans again...

We can see the Frustration from RS comments about "I'll give them fu^^ing Aliens".   we can see that he felt there was only so much you could do with the Xenomorph and indeed the REASONS for WHY someone would Create it are FAR more interesting to ponder.  But certainly the Ball was Dropped as far as WHO they decided would be responsible.  A Interesting Curve-ball... but one that i think has Proved to be a mistake...

I think when we look at what becomes of the Franchise, we have to remember that its the Production Company who call the shots....  IF we do get a Alien Covenant 2 and Disney want to have David NOT revealed as the Creator and to introduce HOW the Xenomorph Queen came to be. Then if RS wanted to play a part he would have to try and make compromises, or just say the Movie has to be done MY WAY or i wont play a part in its Production.... Disney could just then replace RS with another Director instead.

Anyway sorry for going OFF TOPIC...

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Leto

Dec-22-2018 4:36 AM

The beast never been cooked. Ridley said that "the beast is cooked", but it's not a fact and not a truth (some people undoubtedly believed him). It's just the emotional words of disappointment man. We meet alien in 79 movie, we go into the hive in Aliens, we have another subspecies in Alien 3, we get mutants and hybrids in AR. And more alien creatures in Prometheus & Alien Covenant. Finally we saw the protomorph. The beast is not cooked and never will be.

BigDave

Dec-22-2018 4:36 AM

"As I said the beast is cooked, but only so long as Fox recycle the creature. However, if the creature is evolved in some new, refreshing way that stays true to the core appeal of the franchise then the beast can become relevant and prominent again"

Indeed RS had indicated about this in some of his comments where he felt you could go a FEW MORE ROUNDS with the Xenomorph... but you have to Evolve it, he made a reference to that in one of his Interviews were he said the Franchise has to be about HIM, but you have to EVOLVE HIM... now this appeared to be about the Xenomorph, but it could have been about David but i feel that is unlikely and so he was referring to the Xenomorph.

REGARDING how we got Camerons ALIENS

Again i have to go back to that ALIEN in those days prior to Internet (Mainstream) and Smart Phones and so limited ways to communicate and get information..

Back then not every person who ever saw ALIEN would be aware of the Starbeast Draft/Plot or the Planned Separate Egg Silo and Temple.  And so what we was left with was the Derelict and the Egg Cargo and it was a case of where do we go from here...

Introducing the Hadleys Hope Colony Plot, helped to introduce us to the Potential Danger a Xenomorph Outbreak would cause, and then set up a Plot where we could connect with the Characters and Loss of the Colony, using NEWT as this Proxy.

Then we had to look at HOW to expand upon the Xenomorph, and they chose to NOT incorporate what they did-not from STARBEAST and they chose to not incorporate the Egg Morph from the DC Cut.  so then you would have to ASK.... how could those Eggs had came to be?

Then we have to consider most EGGS are laid by a Organism, which then means do we make a connection between Xenomorph and a Bird, Reptile, Amphibian and in doing so, we could look at how these Organisms go on to live a more solidarity Life Once Hatched and Grown to Adults.  This may suit the 1979 Xenomorph.  but Cameron wanted to introduce them as a Threat that could overrun a Colony and give us a Action Movie... and so introducing Multiple Xenomorphs who work together was the route taken.   And when looking at this kind of route then we could be led to this being a kind of Collective like a Bee Hive or Ant Colony.  and so going the route of the Eggs being more connected to the Insect Domain is what we got.   A Organism that would go on to Create Colonies/Hives like Termites and Ants is what they went for, as it shows the Threat the Xenomorphs pose when they overrun a world and follow a common Goal/Cause instead of acting Individually.    

So Logically it seemed Appropriate to have those Eggs come from being LAID.  The Starbeast/Alien DC method of Procreation of the Eggs was something different and interesting but it was something they passed upon.  And so a Egg Laying Species that would have a Queen that creates the Eggs and acts more like a Invasive Species is the route they went, as opposed to a Totally Parasitic Organism.

When looking back, they could have consider other ways that Eggs could have been accounted for.  Even the David method of using a Technology/Substance/Method of Mixing/Engineering Traits for a Perfect Organism and then using Egg Cells to infect these Traits into them to produce the Eggs.  Could have been explored... 

This kind of a Plot would have required introducing the Space Jockey ideally as a Race who would carry out such Experiments, were they could then require Test Subjects to Create their Xenomorph Eggs from.... and so introduce a Plot of a Race that would go around and Capture Humanoid or Suitable Organisms to USE their Egg Cells as the Basis to Evolve them into Xenomorph Eggs.  Maybe this kind of a Plot could have been better for a ALIEN sequel.

But then its a bit complicated, and a Egg Laying Queen Organism is a more simplified route..... but then so would have been using the Egg Morph route... a Simple Method that also would have introduced something Sinister about the Procreation... and to a degree followed STARBEAST only not as in how Civilized the Xenomorph could have become.

I think thats what BUGS a lot of ALIEN fans was the Potential to have the Xenomorph as a more Social Organism with Intent and Menace, rather than being a Organism that just Procreates on Pure Survival Instincts like a Ant Colony.  But there was not much in ALIEN or even ALIEN DC that would show us the Xenomorph was 100% a Intelligent Species like Starbeast had indicated. 

There was plans for this... but scenes never got shot... if ALIEN ended as RS had planed at One Point (Xenomorph Kills Ripley and then Impersonates he Voice to Lure in a Rescue Mission) then a ALIEN 2 would have gone a different route, to the BUGS.

But we have to accept what we got.... another thing to consider is back at the time of ALIEN Ridley Scott had looked at and wanted the Xenomorph to have elements of a Reptile and Insect i its Genetic Make up.  And so the Insect Influence was there in RS mind before Cameron and his Aliens came along.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Dec-22-2018 4:48 AM

" The beast is not cooked and never will be."

I think its more a case of personal opinion, the beast is cooked to some, and not to others.  The Problem is the Formula they used in the Franchise as far as the Camerons Egg Laid Xenomorphs...  really becomes tricky to introduce the same type of PLOT/THREAT over and over before it could become Repetitive.

But some fans would not mind a ALIENS 3, ALIENS 4, ALIENS 5 etc.... Run, Hide, Shoot and get killed.  i think there is only so much of that you can do On Screen.

I think you need something fresh, and maybe Evolve the Plot and Organism....  But its hard to do because a ALIEN movie had put all its EGGS into One Basket in that any ALIEN movie (Prefix) would have to be about the Xenomorph in some form.  Evolve the Xenomorph to something that is distant to the Original and some fans would just not be happy or see a connection (Deacon, Neomorph) for example...

If Alien Covenant did-not show David Created the Xenomorph, but he experimented on the Engineers Xenomorph to Create Neomorphs.... and then Alien Awakening was a movie about Neomorph like Organisms.

Some fans would feel this is not a ALIEN movie without some kind of Egg/Face Huger Stage.  I think if they went for this PLOT in Alien Covenant they could have explored in sequels that the Neomorph Organism could infect a Host so that it either Egg Morphed, or the Hosts Body would decompose a bit and form a Organic Mass that similar looking Spore Pods would Grow from..

Thus Propagating the Procreation of the Organism.  But for some fans they would Lament for the Xenomorph and Queen.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Leto

Dec-22-2018 4:57 AM

But we have to accept what we got.... another thing to consider is back at the time of ALIEN Ridley Scott had looked at and wanted the Xenomorph to have elements of a Reptile and Insect i its Genetic Make up.  And so the Insect Influence was there in RS mind before Cameron and his Aliens came along.

 

You don't understand. Please, let me explain about bugs. This is not about genes, behaviors, abilities, forms or another stuff. No. People call Cameron's aliens "bugs" because they weak. Bugs are weak. And Cameron's aliens weak. So, they are bugs. nothing more.

BigDave

Dec-22-2018 5:17 AM

Bugs can be very Dangerous...

If we looked at something similar to "It Came from the Desert" should some accident or experiment lead to Tens of Thousands of  Giant Horse Sized Ants, these would potentially be a Massive Threat to the Eco System.

IF Such a thing happened Hundreds of Years ago, then its possible that Mankind on the infected Continent/Island would be overran and wiped out by Giant Ants.

So Camerons Aliens are Dangerous... the 1979 Xenomorph would be less Dangerous IMO if they decided to go for the Egg Morph Procreation...   by Dangerous i mean as in Mass Egg Production is more efficient.

But i do think the BUGS route, is something that reduces the Xenomorph from being interesting and sinister.

A Movie about AI that Mass Produces Killing Machines like Robocop ED-209 or even like the Chappie Plot as far as the MOOSE Robot would offer a Killing Machine thats more of a threat than Androids like David, or even the Terminator T-800's but they would just not be as interesting.

Why i feel the route the Xenomorph had taken, by being just a Bio-Weapon that can Procreate via a Queen, has limited scope, as there is only so much you can do with this route.

So what i am saying is WHILE we have ALIENS that gave us something interesting and a Good Action Movie... the revelations about the Xenomorph does not make them Sinister.   Thus it becomes the Motives behind who would Create such a Organism or intend to use it for a purpose becomes the more Sinister Plot.

Because alone... there is IMO only so much you can do with the Xenomorph as far as those Eggs, and introducing a Queen is the method of their creation. Unless the Xenomorph is shown to have a more Civilized Purpose and Agenda and become a Alien Species that has more than a Agenda to merely Procreate.

so what i am saying LETO is that i agree with your first reply in this Topic, in that the beast can have more LIFE if they Evolve it or introduce more of a Agenda for the Species, than merely having ONE Natural Instinct... Procreate.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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