Alien: Covenant
Fans Online
51
The PredatorGet The Predator 2018 Movie TicketsAlien MerchAlien shirtFeatured

Alien: Covenant. A Load of Old Trash.

Alien: Covenant. A Load of Old Trash.

JamietheBastard

Nov-09-2018 4:18 PM

 

If you thought the idiots in Prometheus were stupid wait until you meet the morons in Alien: Covenant.
I watched this movie with high hopes, I mean surely it couldn't be any worse than Prometheus right? Wrong. Prometheus was freaking Citizen Kane compared to this cinematic polished turd. Adding Xenomorphs and Facehuggers into the mix doesn't improve things one bit without good ideas and a DECENT SCRIPT with characters you can identify with, symapthise with and root for. I was hoping every single one of these moronic dipsh*ts would die painfully and horribly. A good movie stays with me after I have left the cinema, and usually provokes a bit of thought on what I have seen. Even Prometheus, though weak, did provide a bit of food for thought after I had seen it. Alien: Covenant - absolutely nothing. I did not cogitate for one second after seeing this mess, except for "Well that sure was a load of festering crap." as I left the cinema (and I was not alone, the audience laughed and jeered throughout the film, also obviously unimpressed).


Ridley Scott may be a good director, and an innovative visual stylist, but he is not a writer. His ideas stink big time (even as far back as Alien, he had some terrible ideas that luckily didn't make it into the movie, apparently the studio even sent a couple of minders to ensure he stuck to the script. Obviously Mr. Scott is now so powerful no-one wants to stand up and say "Hey Ridley this SUCKS," he obviously employs "Yes" persons only). Alien: Covenant looked good but the script was pathetic, his "Origin" for the xenomorph was pathetic. He should never have tried to provide backstories for the alien and the Space Jockeys, this totally robs them of any mystery whatsoever. David "Created" the xenomorph a few years before Alien? Rubbish. What a load of garbage. David was the most interesting character in Prometheus, but Fassbender got royally screwed in this one, he's a great actor and I wondered why the hell he signed on for this garbage? Possibly because he picked up two paychecks instead of one. Even the awesome Guy Pearce looked like he was embarrassed at being involved with this. I actually had to re-watch this film to write this review (a version a mate of mine downloaded, which was dubbed into Spanish. Well I certainly wasn't going to waste my money renting or buying this piece of crap).


What went wrong? Well Ridley Scott is obviously making this crap up as he goes, as I originally surmised, and Alien: Covenant proves this beyond any shadow of doubt.
I have to mention a very heavy handed bit of (unintentional?) subtext that no-one seems to have noticed, yet it smacked me upside the head immediately upon viewing this scene - Blonde haired, blue-eyed, uber Aryan android David bombs the planet inhabited by a race of hook-nosed humans. Alien: Genocide of the Space Jews would have been a more appropriate title. Was this movie secretly written by Mel Gibson?


How the hell did the solar flare get into the captain's hypersleep chamber? Why was James Franco even in this movie? This scene was unneccesary and ridiculous. As was this terrible movie.


An animal species that propagates via plant spores? WTF? In Alien the creatures' breeding cycle was based on that of the parasitical breeding habits of certain species of terrestrial wasps, believable and horrific. Here a guy gets infected when a plant spore floats into his ear, pathetic and laughable


You would think the Covenant crew would be highly trained professionals, but no they are a bunch of idiots who panic at the first sign of danger. Real astronauts are thoroughly psychologically tested and selected for their ability to remain calm and professional in the face of potential danger. Weyland-Yutani really need to re-assess their hiring and psychological screening practices, how these idiots get to be in charge of trillion dollar space vessels is mind boggling.
As with Prometheus, Alien: Covenant features a bunch of moronic characters doing stupid things to further the plot. Exploring an alien planet without spacesuits is ludicrous, even if it has a breathable atmosphere, they would still have to observe biohazard and decontamination protocols due to bacteria and alien micro-organisms, and surely they would check out the planet thoroughly with drones before exploring it. But hey we need some idiots to get infected, so we'll send down a team unprepared and unprotected. How did they miss a vast city full of corpses within walking distance of their shuttle?


The idiot who locks her friend in with the creature to contain infection. She had already copped a faceful of possibly infected blood when the creature split the guy's back open*, so this makes no sense whatsoever. Also there is a continuity error here, her face was spattered with the guy's blood, but when she uses the radio to contact the Covenant the blood is gone, when she goes back to the med bay the blood on her face has returned. Then this panicky idiot goes on to blow up the shuttle and herself, eliciting derisive laughter from the audience. *(Ridley Scott claimed that he would "Top" the chestburster scene from Alien, so we get a backburster instead, not even close).


The new Captain Moron has just shot dead the evil android's pet alien, which had munched off his crewmate's head. Evil android is super pissed about this, and yet Captain Moron obligingly sticks his face right over an object that looks suspiciously like a big, slimy egg when evil android tells him to.


Alien: Covenant totally ignores the rules set up in Alien - They manage to pull the facehugger off the guy's face (which had somehow managed to impregnate him after only a few seconds). In Alien when they try to remove the facehugger from Kane's face Dallas states - "It's not coming off without tearing his face off with it." plus the facehugger takes several hours to impregnate Kane, not a few seconds.
The ridiculous "Twist" ending that is totally obvious as soon as we see the Covenant has a "David" model android aboard, especially so when David cuts, dyes and styles his hair to match that of identical model android Walter. How did he cut his hair to match Walter's perfectly? (you try cutting your hair using a mirror). Where did he get the hair dye from that conveniently exactly matched Walter's hair colour? The Engineers were all bald so I doubt they had Hair Salons. Why would an android's hair grow? Absolutely pathetic.


The Engineers did not resemble the Engineers in Prometheus, who were albino, almost translucent, with black eyes, yet the Engineers in Alien: Covenant had human skin tones and normal eyes. There is major inconsistency with the effects of the Black Goop - It disintegrates your body and unravels your DNA, or it turns you into an alien zombie, or it lets you impregnate your sterile girlfriend with an alien octopus baby, or it kills thousands of people and leaves their black corpses frozen in place, or it mutates plant life into producing spores that create proto alien animal life. Unfortunately the only thing it doesn't do is mutate bad scriptwriters into good ones.


"You hold onto it and I'll do the fingering." this line was met with howls of laughter from the audience.
The idiots in the shower. If half your crew had just been wiped out by alien creatures methinks you would be too traumatised to have a bonk in the shower stall.

Ripley Lite #1. At least the personality vacuum actress that played the "Heroine" in Prometheus met a suitably horrific Gigeresque fate, though it's a pity we didn't get to see this happen to the annoying idiot.


Ripley Lite #2. The personality vacuum actress who portrayed the "Heroine." in Alien: Covenant. Her only facial expression throughout the film was as if she had just been slapped across the face with a dead fish.
Why are modern screenwriters unable to write scripts with convincing and logical reasons for the actions performed by the characters, rather than have them doing dumb things to drive the plot forward? Why are these hacks getting paid good money to write these garbage scripts? Hollywood studio executives are obviously contemptuous of the audiences for these films, and continually underestimate people's intelligence, "Hey we'll just put in a few more explosions and no-one will notice that the script is full of illogical garbage that makes no sense."

With Prometheus and Alien: Covenant Ridley Scott has retroactively ruined Alien for me. The Space Jockeys and the Xenomorph species didn't need intricate backstories:
David created the Xenomorph ten years before Alien? The Space Jockeys were nothing more than albino steroid abusers in suits? What a load of stinking crap.
I always felt that the Space Jockeys were an ancient, alien species, long extinct, possibly related to Lovecraft's Elder Gods, and their motivations would have been alien, unfathomable and eldritch (to understand them would drive you insane). The Alien was a force of nature, not something cooked up by an unhinged android with daddy issues. Yet with Prometheus and Alien: Covenant Ridley Scott has managed to turn the dark Lovecraftian Alien universe into a clone of the utter crap Star Trek series where all the aliens in the galaxy are just humans with stupid lumps on their heads, a concept that is totally freaking ludicrous. As I have long suspected he has been making this crap up as he goes, (and doing a piss poor job of it too) which Alien: Covenant proves without a doubt. Yes I know I have already stated this, I just thought I should re-iterate it. It seems the "screenwriters" were only there to help facilitate Ridley Scott's dumb ideas, rather than write an intelligent, engaging story, with characters you could actually sympathise with, they're obviously doing it for the money with no shred of personal or artistic integrity whatsoever.

Hopefully Ridley Scott will retire before he can make any more of these mega budget turkeys. A dose of Syphilis would probably be less painful than sitting through another one of Ridley Scott's pathetic Alien prequels (and no I am not speaking from personal experience here, just surmising).

ADDENDUM. Apparently Alien: Covenant was a commercial and critical failure* (no surprise there, if the audience I saw the movie with are any indication) and it seems there may be no more of these crap prequels (we can only hope).
*Not my personal opinion, I have read that this is so.

I have heard the rumours of a Netflix television series based on Alien/Aliens, which if true may redeem the franchise somewhat. I have even had a go at coming up with a format and characters, based on characters and ideas from my Alien fan fiction stories for a possible way to do this show.

37 Responses to Alien: Covenant. A Load of Old Trash.

ignorantGuy

Nov-10-2018 12:25 AM

JamietheBastard

Sorry mate but who seem to have discovered the wheel. I've been saying that Covenant David is a nazi from day 1 (http://www.scified.com/movie/prometheus-2/review/925) and here is a review saying the same https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/06/02/ridley-scotts-horrific-depiction-of-fascism-in-alien-covenant/

I think that you are also venerating the original movie, but how was that movie not stupid? Kane putting his face in the egg, Dallas' blind obedience to corporate interests, chasing the cat through-out the maze like space ship? And let's not talk about the marines in Aliens.

David was the most interesting character in Prometheus, but so was Ash, they did not make the whole series about him? And for me, he was not, as he was doing a painfully obvious rip-off of Peter O'Toole.

Bland Prometheus Ripley rip-off? Well in the first Alien she was pretty bland, being just another final girl. She is developed in sequels. But in Prometheus, I've seen the background of Shaw, the excitement of discovery, followed by physical and psychological pain, desperation and finally determination. Yes sure some can criticize the accent and the debriefing dialog was bad, but that did not warrant a killing off.

And if you are so in love with Giger, here on this forum, you can pictures of Murals created by the Swiss artist for Alien in which the Space Jockeys are bald humanoid wearing space suits. So why the hate?

And to conclude with I hate Covenant, but I like how in it all the people who are infected are either security or using guns to resolve problems (including the captain). I would like to think that was a jab at American foreign policy, but judging by who was involved in it, I doubt that is the case.

BigDave

Nov-10-2018 1:51 AM

Everyone has their own Opinion and ways to express those, i have to agree that Alien Covenant was one very FLAWED Movie, i think some of your points are very Valid and Accurate i think some could come down to a little misunderstanding of what was being shown. (The Spores for Example, Spores/Fungi are not Plant-life) but most other points i can totally agree with.

I have to say that Alien Covenant had some interesting ideas, but sadly the Characters were not well done, not enough to engage us to feel any real connection with the exception of a few (mainly Lope, Oram).  What the rest of the Movie comes down to is having to Shoe-horn a Plot, introduce the Xenomorphs and something New, try and please Alien Fans, and Aliens Fans while trying to not completely piss off the Prometheus Fans.. And what we ended up with is a Movie where there was too much to be covered within the restraints of the Running Time and so cuts had to be made to how deep they could explore Characters, Scenes and Plot Points had to be Speed up and Rushed for the Convenience of getting us from A-Z

Prometheus could have done with a extra 25-30 Minutes and introduce a bit Xenomorph like Scenes...  Alien Covenant could have done with a extra 25-30 Minutes and Reduce such Scenes.

I had started on a Re-write of Prometheus a few years ago, that replaced some scenes and added some scenes and fleshed out some scenes and it was not a HARD TASK to Edit Prometheus into something better... But with Alien Covenant it would be a MUCH  HARDER task.

Regarding Stupid decisions by Characters, i agree we have seen some Stupid ones in both movies, but then the same can be said as IgnorantGuy mentions with Alien and Alien, if these movies had people taking more precautions then we would not any real Xenomorph Movies of Threat.

I will say that adding the Character ASH for Alien was a Masterstroke and especially the Special Order 937, because without that Special Order and him being a Secret Synthetic and revealing a Secret Agenda... then Alien would have had another STUPID moment when he broke Quarantine and allowed Kane on the Ship.

Sadly the Prequels could have had some things FIXED with a bit of better writing..... the Drafts to the Prequels and Novels to offer a Fix for some of the Stupid Stuff... For example a Reveal that Walter had checked out the Atmosphere of Planet 4 and determined it was perfectly safe.  Likewise in Prometheus the drafts had a explanation for why Milburn and Fifield got so lost (they each thought the other had brought the Map Device).

SADLY when a movie is shot and cut to fit into a Theatrical Running Time, some scenes like this have to be cut as they can affect the Run-Time of the Movie.

I think Prometheus was about 70-75% there as a Movie but needed a little work to make it a Good Movie, i feel Alien Covenant would have had to have about 50% Changes to make it into the movie it should have been.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

daliens

Nov-10-2018 6:01 AM

The atmospheric composition on planet 4 was checked by the lander's computer that detected oxygen 19.5%, nitrogen 79.4%, barometric pressure 15.4 PSI. You might have overlooked this because at the same time the crew was distributed their guns.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

BigDave

Nov-10-2018 6:45 AM

Indeed that is pretty close to Earths Oxygen 21% and  Nitrogen 78%

In a  real world situation they would have gone down with some kind of Space Suit and done a Survey and also investigated the signal while being suited up.  But in this situation the chances of then becoming infected with the Neomorph would have been Practically 0

The movie has many flaws, which also include a inconsistent Gestation Time for the Xenomorph i was going to start a thread the weekend on the Organisms in the Franchise Gestation Rates and WHY they vary so much (in particular with the Xenomorph).

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

daliens

Nov-10-2018 7:23 AM

Sooner or later they would have been infected with the Neomorph,  it is just that in a two hours film you wouldn't have time to show them walking around in a space suit until one of them has to take a leak and get the motes entering his body through his uretra.

I love Alien Covenant and I don't care what the haters say.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

Thoughts_Dreams

Nov-10-2018 9:58 AM

JamietheBastard:

Yup the script wasn’t very good, I totally agree about the characters. The only ones that were alright were David, Walter, and Oram, the rest had no personality as far as I could see. Were they adventurers? Careless? Logical? Emotional? I could not tell because they had no distinctive personalities.

As far as laughing, one scene that was kind of stupid was when the Xeno busted out of the chest of Oram and Oram was able to speak after that? That scene was dumb and also the David raising his arms was “meh”.

“Ridley Scott may be a good director, and an innovative visual stylist, but he is not a writer. His ideas stink big time… “

I totally agree, he is good with visuals but he can not tell a good story and his ideas are usually weak (like David being responsible for the Xeno, that sucks). Luckily for us his ideas were not in the script for Alien since it would probably have been silly anyways. Having the Xeno as an ancient thing or at least something that the Engineers did would have been OK because it is not as closely tied to humans.

Yup David was better in Prometheus but here he was mostly evil. I think that he worked when he was together with Walter because then you could see the differences between them but hew was better in Prometheus.

AC is not something that I will watch again, it is a robot movie and that’s it.

“The two condescending, patronising, self-righteous, A-Holes that put me down on this site...”

Having different opinions about a movie is fine but you do not need to look at the other side as being stupid just for that. Some civility is welcomed on discussion forums or the Internet in general, that goes for all sides.

The spores and the goo was kind of interesting but that is my humble opinion. I totally agree that the lack of spacesuits is something that I found questionable to say the least. Sure the air might be breathable but there are things that could be bad for your immune system aside from the air. Yup there are a lot of corpses and no one mentions a word about it, it is just silly. Maybe they were stressed but anyways.

Faris fucked up the shuttle. She was afraid so she panicked, OK it was not the best thing to do but I could kind of understand that. Wouldn’t you have done something dumb if you were chased by a violent life-form that you haven’t seen before? That is why I do not have a problem with that scene but I understand what you say.  The thing is that if the majority of the movie would have worked I would have been alright with that but the movie in general doesn’t so it becomes kind of “eh”. I did not have a problem with the back-bursters, the monsters were OK but the characters, and the focus on the robots made this movie a let-down.

You mention the face-hugger but maybe this was an earlier version of it since it is a prequel.

Yeah the switching between David and Walter was obvious for the audience maybe but not for the crew. This is how I look at that scene. I also thought that the android’s hair growing was weird.

The goo was interesting but it was inconsistent but then water can take different shapes (liquid, ice) so maybe it is one of those things.

I totally agree that the characters in both prequels are let-downs in general.

“Why are modern screenwriters unable to write scripts with convincing and logical reasons for the actions performed by the characters, rather than have them doing dumb things to drive the plot forward?”

At least it goes for AC and Prometheus, I don’t go to the movie-theater that often.

Yup David being responsible for the Xeno is absolute crap if you ask me and is on of my main complaints about it. Yes I agree that the Engineers were not that impressive but they could save it by having the SJ being a version above the Engineers like in a hierarchy.

It kind of deserved to be a failure because it wasn’t very good. I have not watched it for ages and do not plan to do so.

Thoughts_Dreams

Nov-10-2018 9:59 AM

Big Dave: I agree that Oram was alright but Lope? Nah, I did not get any understanding of how he was as a character.

“Regarding Stupid decisions by Characters, i agree we have seen some Stupid ones in both movies, but then the same can be said as IgnorantGuy mentions with Alien and Alien...”

I guess that people did bad decisions in 1-3 but the thing is that the characters were better written so that was alright to be. The prequels mostly have lame characters so their bad decisions becomes more annoying so that teaches us a very good point in having relatable characters, otherwise it is annoying.

daliens

Nov-10-2018 10:28 AM

As far as laughing, one scene that was kind of stupid was when the Xeno busted out of the chest of Oram and Oram was able to speak after that? That scene was dumb and also the David raising his arms was “meh”.

Your memory is a little hazy, Thoughts_Dreams, you have to watch AC again.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

Thoughts_Dreams

Nov-10-2018 11:42 AM

Daliens: Yeah that is a possibility. I haven't watched it for a long time.

daliens

Nov-10-2018 12:33 PM

Thoughts_Dreams

About David raising his arms, you try to do that with a dog or a cat that is not too stupid or too indifferent and they might respond to it, it's a way to communicate. Kind of bonding.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

I Raptus

Nov-10-2018 1:14 PM

daliens, yep imprinting and it has been well established that inter-species imprinting can and does happen in nature. Look up the works of Konrad Lorenz.

It was the films way of highlighting that David was the Xenomorph creator, and that the juvenile xenomorph had accepted him as its 'parent'. 

Due to Oram's intervention he had failed to 'tame' the Neomorph, but with the Xenomorph juvenile he was successful, and imprinting creates a significantly more permanent bond than taming. 

So David (with the young xeno mimicking him) raising his arms showed both the success and culmination of his genesis plans, and his success in imprinting himself as creator to this juvenile Xenomorph.

We had just established himself as both a creator and a parent; he had created life. Something that a synthetic like him should not have been able to achieve.

Like it or not, it was a profound moment in the film 

 #KeepTheRociFlying

I Raptus

Nov-10-2018 1:45 PM

daliens

Sooner or later they would have been infected with the Neomorph,  it is just that in a two hours film you wouldn't have time to show them walking around in a space suit until one of them has to take a leak and get the motes entering his body through his uretra.

I love Alien Covenant and I don't care what the haters say.

I agree!

Due to the success of streaming/TV series we have been spoiled by screen-time. This type of platform allows much more time to flesh out, establish depth and lore to their narratives.

Something that film greatly lacks.

If Covenant had been made as a series, Im sure this would have been explored in much greater detail. But as BigDave pointed out, Covenant tried very hard to be everything to everyone invested in the ALIEN franchise.....but in a 2 hour film, and that meant skipping to the 'highlights' of this narrative.

Although flawed and compressed by its limited run-time the film has many interesting subtleties and symbolism.

As I mentioned when the film was released there are some  interesting ecological concepts presented in this film.

 

 #KeepTheRociFlying

dk

Nov-10-2018 3:01 PM

I Raptus Preaching to the choir- can I get an AMEN?

BigDave

Nov-11-2018 7:50 AM

Time Restraints do mean less time to expand upon some scenes to make them appear to make more sense.  Also as i said earlier IF we had Crew who behaved more as you would expect Professionals to do so, then it would mean less chance of any THREAT coming into realization.   As some pointed out, you could understand some scenes like Faris and her Actions due to the Pressure/Panic coming from encountering the Neomorph.    If they had made it more Realistic by having them go down with Space Suits then this would reduce the Risk of a Neomorph Outbreak.

If they had done this (Space Suits) they could still change the Story to allow for a Neomorph Outbreak, by doing something similar to FIFIELD in the Alien Engineers Draft, where they could encounter Larger Spores and see them disturbed and release a larger CLOUD of Spores/Motes that could swarm around ONE of the Crews Helmet and land on it and as they attempt to move the Cloud by waving there hands and even trying to clear it away from their Helmet, we could see they swat some of them onto the Glass and then see the Spores/Motes MELT through the Helmet.  But doing this TWICE would be silly so you would have to have just ONE Infection if they went the Space Suit Route.

Going the None Space Suit route helped Theatrically because it could show us those Motes flying to Ledwoods Ear and that close up scene, would be more Theatrically better than showing such a scene of them getting into a Space Suit and also the No Space Suits allowed for them to show us a close up of the Spores when Hallet poked at them and then they released Motes into his Nose.

Sometimes the NO Space Suit helps in other ways, like with PROMETHEUS the Holloway taking his Helmet off Performed a few things.

1) Show us that INDEED the inside of the Complex was Terraformed to be Breathable to Humans.

2) Helped us to Ponder IF the Crew taking their Helmets off was what affected the ATMOSPHERE in the Ampoule Room and Caused the Urns to leak. If this is the case then it would give us a insight into a Reason for the Space Jockey Suits.

3)It helped the Narrative when Dr Shaw was concerned about the possibility of Airborne Infection as to what affected Holloway which when David said it was NOT, would then lead Dr Shaw to suspect something suspicious had happened.   As it was only the Audience who knew how Holloway was infected (and David) the Crew could have been lead to something Airborne.

So for those 3 Narrative Plot Points it required the removal of any Helmets.

@Thoughts_Dreams

When i mention Lope i still think there is not much depth to his Character as what is needed, but i just feel in the shorter amount of Airtime he had, he seemed to have more impact in his limited scenes, as far as performing his Role he was intended for (Protect the Crew) and some of his Insight.  And he seemed to portray with Oram more Emotion to the Situation.

With the Main Characters of Daniels and Tennessee they seemed to not be too affected by their Loss and seemed to get over it as if they was ROBOTS lol

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

daliens

Nov-11-2018 1:10 PM

I Raptus

Welcome back!

These two guys, I think they want to imprint on a rubber duckling.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

dk

Nov-11-2018 6:46 PM

I know it is a bit OT, but here is an example that supports streaming series vs movies. Ash vs Evil Dead went heavy into character and plot development that a cinematic follow up to Evil Dead or Army of Darkness could not possibly have achieved in 2 hours.

 

JamietheBastard

Nov-11-2018 7:26 PM

 

There doesn't seem to be a way to reply to individual replies so I'll endeavour to cover all points raised. No, I hadn't seen any reviews that raised the Nazi angle, I will most certainly check them out, thanks for the links.

Alien whilst being a classic, is not perfect, no movie ever is, but I feel that the Truckers in Space were just in way over their heads, and the Alien novelisation by Alan Dean Foster did imply that Kane was eager to explore the ship because he was sure that he was going to find something that would make him rich, so he wasn't being cautious. Dan O'Bannon didn't like the Ash sub-plot added by Hill and Giler, but it definitely added another element to the film that elevated it above a slasher in space flick. And Ron Shussett liked the Ash sub-plot, and the company treating the crew as expendable was believable and horrifying. Capitalist Bastards! Ridley Scott is not some sort of directing God who can do no wrong, sure he's made some stone cold  classics, but he's churned out his share of crap too folks.

I'm glad he didn't direct Blade Runner: 2049 (which I believe was co-written by one of the scriptwriters of Alien: Covenant) which whilst definitely flawed, was far better than I expected it to be and I actually quite enjoyed it (watched it four times now and I think it's pretty good.) Ridley Scott should stick with what he's good at and leave the ideas to the writers.

Now I posted this review after reading the old posts and I was quite pissed off, of course that's a stupid thing to do is post in the heat of anger, and I have edited the review. I have never put anyone down because their opinions differed from mine, I have never replied to anyone's posts in any way that could be considered offensive or derisive. The afore mentioned people attacked and derided me for voicing my opinion that Ridley Scott was making all this up as he went, and I was merely asking other's opinions on this matter when said idiots attacked me and were quite rude about it. I had also noted that one of these idiots replies to anyone's posts, not just mine were nothing more than patronising, condescending put-downs of other's opinions, which I find offensive. I re-iterate that I have never derided anyone's opinions because they differ from mine. If I had inadvertently caused offence with any comments I had made it was most certainly not intended, and I really don't think so, except for these two idiots, my interactions with others on this site had been respectful and I don't expect everyone to share my opinions. It would be a pretty damn boring world if we all agreed 100% on everything. But if attacked I will respond in kind, and I was most definitely attacked and put down by these fools for an innocent comment, which I stated was my own opinion and I was just curious what other's thought.

Thanks for the feedback.

BigDave

Nov-12-2018 10:39 AM

@DK

Ash VS Evil Dead was kinda interesting at first but then it started to get a bit well disappointing, but certainly i see your point in that a TV Series allows for you to provide better depth to Characters and other Elements that you cant really do in a 2 hour movie.

@Jamie

Indeed i can agree with the point that things get changed as the go along, sometimes its not Entirely Ridley Scott, as he was quite Happy with Alien Engineers, but those at FOX felt that it needed to tone down the Xenomorph and Connections... then RS agreed and he wanted to steer away from the Xenomorph for a Prometheus sequel but once again those at FOX felt they needed to introduce it again and give us the answers to its Origins and HOW it ended up on the Derelict in ALIEN.

A lot does change as they go along and appears they dont stick to a set Plan A-Z and even when working on a Change of Plan, they could say have a idea of how Alien Covenants sequel would go A-Z but you could bet by the time we got to one a lot of that A-Z would be changed again!

I think the Biggest Criticism with RS has to be that it appears he cant make his mind up where to take each next Installment and what Elements he is fond of or not!  One Interview he would be taking us down the Path that he is not FOND of this or that...... then in another he goes on about the Movie should be about the things he previously was not in Favor of... and then he can change his mind again.

I think we need some stability and a Plan of Exactly how we are going to go from Alien Covenant to ALIEN and stick to it somewhat... but also consider how they can leave things open to explore other NEW stuff because ONCE we have gone the path of the Xenomorph Origins and how those Eggs get on the Derelict in ALIEN we then have to ask WHATS NEXT?

Hopefully the 10 Page ALIEN Bible of sorts (Guide) that they worked on as a guide for all Future Franchise Movies means they now have some Stability as far as the A-Z of Elements within the Franchise, even if they choose to keep some a Mystery as long as they themselves have a Answer for them in their heads/the Guide Book.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Batchpool

Nov-13-2018 3:09 PM

I would just like to inflict my opinion on everyone with my own take on things. History sometimes has a habit of repeating itself, and as such I would have no complaint if the start of the third movie began its opening credits with us seeing the good ship Covenant coming to grief, a bit like another third movie in the Alien series. I think a bit of mass destruction at the start of a movie could work as a good opener.

The point that comes to mind is who would the movie be aimed at?

I say this because I feel that both Prometheus and AC have failed to carve out a hardcore niche audience in the kind of numbers that generates sufficient profit to justify more movies. Whilst I am probably one of those who enjoyed both movies, that does not necessarily mean I liked the direction of the storylines. The big guy in the chair of the Derelict from Alien is not the same as the space jockey we see in Prometheus. Ignoring what has been written in scripts, the fact is that what is seen on screen is not the same. I refuse to accept that the big guy in the chair of Alien is an Engineer in a spacesuit.  The way the storylines of Prometheus and AC have unfolded I feel has created a great deal of division.  I know there are plenty of other and very valid issues folks may agree or disagree on, but for me the big guy in the chair is the big one. Should a third movie just happen to come along, I just hope that it is going to actually deliver me a beautiful mermaid and not a dead monkey with its legs sewn together.

BigDave

Nov-13-2018 6:14 PM

@Batchpool

I think its hard to Gauge what the Audience would want, as we all have different likes and dislikes regarding the Franchise, but certainly a number of the things that the Prequels had indicated have likely not set well with the higher % of the Fanbase.

I think there would have been a % of Fans who would have wanted to had seen Prometheus Retconed but i would assume that at least double that would want to see Alien Covenant Retconed or Ignored.

I think however we have seen a lot of chopping and changing and so i dont think changing too much would be ideal, but certainly a few things could be altered.  I think a Problem is the SET-UP as i think with what has to happen between NOW and ALIEN to get Davids Xenomorphs on the Derelict on LV-426 is something that i find would be HARD to push into a single Movie... not without having to Produce a lot of Rushed out Scenes and Plot points which Alien Covenant suffered from.

The Covenant coming into Grief, could put us a bit into Alien 3 Territory, but its a possible Change... i think the Set-Up for the Sequel does mean quite a bit to happen, that would need TWO movies... or maybe 3 hours.... and a lot of what likely could happen between then (David and the Covenant, where it is going, what happens on the way, what happens when it gets to its destination).  Never-mind what happens after this and prior to the Arrival of incoming Parties.

It all seems like too much to fit into a single Movie, especially if they wish to conclude it with the Derelict/Space Jockey event.  And the part from where David is now (taking the Covenant while Crew/Colonist are tucked up  asleep) to when the incoming parties arrive... could be something that a lot of Fans would not be interested in, especially if its NO Xenomorph and what David wishes to do....

A logical way around would likely have to be HOW we had with Alien Covenant, which bypassed a lot of what happened from David and Dr Shaw leaving LV-223 until when the Covenant Arrived..   So for another case of simplicity would it maybe be ideal to have the NEXT Movie as a Aftermath....

Were we start where David has been were ever he is off to for a number of years.... so we wont see too much of what the Colonist get up-to... but we will concentrate on the incoming Parties..   This could potentially be a little too much like ALIENS though... but its something like that, which i think would make them the most $$$$

Also something like this route would cut out a  lot, and mean we can get closer to the Space Jockey Event, but even so i still think that would need a 2.5 Hour plus Movie.  And likely have to END with a Engineer or whoever, loading up or showing their Ship loaded up with Davids Xenomorph Eggs and then set off into Space.

Regarding the Space Jockey.... i think the Engineers could have fitted the Bill apart from Size Difference.

I dont think going the Skeleton Route would be good, because RS had for years said it was a Space Suit and HR Gigers Concept showed as such...

But i certainly feel we could be introduced to a Taller 10-12ft Race that is LESS Human than the Engineers but still a Space Suit.

When i was working on ideas for my Prometheus Sequels, i had envisioned something different to be revealed as the Creators of the Engineers a 12ft Alien Race Humanoid but also more Alien with some Aesthetics of the Xeno-Virus

The idea i had in my mind was taking into account some of the Concepts/Unused work from Prometheus which i have shown in the Image Below... its a bit Funny that when the New Star Trek Klingons came out they actually looked NOT too different to the idea i had for how i would have wanted MY idea for those above the Engineers to appear as.

Basically the Side Profile would have looked like the one Unused Fifield Concept (same skin tone/look) with a Face similar to the Fifield CGI but more so Engineer Concept B from image below... add the Xenomorph Warrior Ridges a little and Voila!   Bit funny that few years later i had this idea, those Klingons seem to look similar.. a little. (Just Face a bit different).

I feel the Answer could be to INTRODUCE another Race.

EDIT..... you will have to use your Imagination a bit as far as imagine these Combined with the skin-tone/transparency of the Main Bust in the Background and imagine the Amalgamation of Below.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Nov-13-2018 6:55 PM

Another idea i had which i felt was a bit too different for our Engineers Creators, but something i pondered but at least was looking to introduce as at least another Creation by those above the Engineers was combining again, that Fifield Bust with this other concept, at least giving it a Mouth and Elongated Head... so ONCE again you have to use your imagination to see how this would MERGE.

I think certainly it could work as some kind of Starbeast.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Nov-14-2018 12:55 PM

Something i can add to the main Topic and what could be the Fundamental Flaws of Alien Covenant are...

Firstly Prometheus (among other Flaws) DID-NOT show us the Xenomorphs Origin, it did not give us any answers to HOW those Eggs came to be on the Derelict.  It DID-NOT have any Xenomorphs or any real like-wise Monsters apart from the Deacon at the END... However it lacked the Xenomorph like Monsters rampaging and Killing the Human Characters be that the way Alien and Alien 3 handled a Single Alien Threat, or how Aliens and Alien Resurrection handled Multiple Alien Threats...    With Prometheus there was no such scenes, we only got a Kind of Face Hugger/Chest Buster Money Shot.  A number of Fans were disappointed at this and also a Prequel that DOES-NOT give Answers to ALIEN but only loosely connecting the Xenomorph was likely a Bio-Weapon Created by the Space Jockey.

What it did do was give us a insight into WHO the Space Jockey Race are and their Agenda/Purpose by introducing the Engineers Plot.  And a Sequel looked like it would cover this more and steer away at least from anything related to ALIEN.

Fast Forwards to Alien Covenant and RS/FOX deciding to actually give the Fans a more Alieny Movie that will START to address the Xenomorph Origns and Introduce them back into the Franchise and Eventually via Sequels could lead us to the Back Door to ALIEN (maybe showing us HOW the Derelict Event happened).

This set up the HYPE TRAIN....

Those not happy with NO Answers regarding the Xenomorphs Origin, Purpose and HOW it ended up on the Derelict, could be in for a TREAT as it appears we are FINALLY on the road to give those fans those Answers.  We would be seeing Xenomorphs again, we would be seeing something NEW too, we would be getting a Scene that would TOP the Original Chest Buster and a Movie that would Scare the $"%"& out of people!!!!

What is there NOT to look forwards to?

Concerns may have started with those who actually DID-NOT mind the lack of Answers and Xenomorphs, and were looking forwards to seeing where David and Shaw would end up and WHO they would FIND and Discover more about the Engineers, while touching upon the Themes from Prometheus, while maybe getting some Answers to what was going on in more detail on LV-223.

But it seemed we are off to where those Engineers came from and Hope we may find out more about them, and we would at LEAST have David to expand upon..  Fans were Curious what Role and How Much would Dr Shaw have.

Marketing Machine was in Full Swing, we then got Trailers, few Preview Posters (Egg, Xenomorph) and other Material and a VERY Deceptive Poster.

Then it came TIME!!!!

And this is where it all started to go Wrong!

Firstly i would like to say that Characters in Movies Can and often Need to make some Bad Decisions in order to drive the PLOT... No Horror, Thriller or many Sci-Fi Movies would not be the same if in Retrospect the Characters could foresee the Errors they would make and look at them as the Fans would after the Movie or During... (dont go outside in Dark, dont open that Box etc etc).  But some Movies can have people doing more Stupid Things... But this is NOT really a Major Problem of Alien Covenant.  The other Movies in the Franchise people got KILLED from making some Mistakes, some Silly..   Little Qualms like WHY they never worn any Space Suits and similar could have reasons but reasons that would take up more Screen Time and so are Neglected... on this account the Covenant Mission and Crew could be Forgiven for making Mistakes compared to the Prometheus Crew.

Next we have to look at Characters... and sadly as with Prometheus maybe more so, we simply DID-NOT get Good enough Character Development and Execution, and only Oram, Faris, Karine and Lope (to a degree) we could related to their Purpose and their Reactions... the rest of the cast were VERY Forgettable (David/Walter Excluded) but then we also have to look at the MAIN Characters, and Daniels and Tennessee basically had little impact as far as what Main Characters should be, considering their longer Screen Time and Purpose... Imagine if those Characters had a Short Screen Time as Faris and Oram?  They would be Totally Forgettable.  Does it raise Excitement and Anticipation to what happens with Daniels and Tennessee next?

With Dr Shaw it was different because while Flawed, we knew SHE was off to meet our Makers and GET ANSWERS. But Daniels and Tennessee are just off to some Planet to Build Log Cabins.  I can see they had tried to Flesh Out Characters by having a LONGER Build up like ALIEN had, but we just never got the same Depth/Execution as we had with ALIEN, the Characters in Alien Covenant did have (a good portion of them) as much Screen Time as say the Top 4-5 (Air Time) in the other Movies but they just DID-NOT draw us in as well as the First 3 Movies did.  The Viral Marketing was to make us connect more with the Characters, but this was NO USE to those who DID-NOT see them.  And to add them into the Movie would have affected the Pacing of the Movie....

Which Brings us to the MAIN Culprit....  The Limited Run Time, compared to HOW MANY things it was trying to cover.   The SLOWER Buildup was needed to trying and introduce us more to the Characters who are going to Mostly End up DEAD. This took Quite a lot of Screen Time, before we got to Finally Land on Planet 4 and Explore.

Leaving us a Run-Time were certain Plot Points had to be Forced and Rushed and others passed by or Brushed under the Carpet.   Contributing Potentially too...

*The Quicker Gestation Period of the Xenomorphs (this varies in other Movies especially AVP ones).

*The Very Quick Growth of the Organisms (Bare in mind Neomorph is different) but then Growth Rates vary again within the Franchise.

*The Limited Screen Time of the Organisms (Neomorph and Xenomorph) this was simply not enough to Justify them...

*The Potential for Not having any time to Deal with any LIVE Engineers or more explanation to what happened, never mind MORE about their Species (Prometheus Fans must have felt Cheated) Plus Engineers who seemed FAR less Godlike and Awe inspiring than Prometheus.

*No Time to Explore what happened to Dr Shaw Between the Crossing and when SHE met her END... it appeared things seemed ok between her and David prior to Arriving at Planet 4

If they tried to add depth to each of the above by giving Each Just a Extra 5 Minutes, it would add to the Running Time, and more so with a extra 10 Minutes Each of Engineers, Dr Shaw (Flash Backs or Explanations by David) Never mind showing us a extra 10 Minutes of Xenomorphs/Neomorphs.

The Bigger Focus was upon WHO would Create the Xenomorph and WHY and WHO had caused the End to Dr Shaw and the Engineers.....  The Focus was on David and some Creation/Philosophy Themes from Prometheus.

I can understand WHY to a degree, but so many Parts of the Plot had been laid to Waste, which was for Reasons i mentioned above... But as David also Killed the Engineers and Dr Shaw... this had upset some Fans... as HE is now to Blame for WHY we dont get more of Dr Shaw and the Engineers.

A portion of the Plot Seemed to be around HOW/WHY he created the Xenomorph rather than showing us the Xenomorph in Detail... the Reveal that HE created it again is something that has upset Fans and maybe caused a Dislike for his Character.

These Disappointments seem to Over Shadow the Reasons why we are being shown WHY he has done what he has done, but this REVEAL is Totally against what Most Fans would have Hoped for Regarding the Xenomorph Origins.

They also seemed to Over Shadow the Interaction and Differences between David and Walter, and how they connect to the Prologue with Weyland and HOW they fit in with the Themes of the Prometheus and Engineers, for some Fans these Connections and intentions are somewhat has hard to Follow as the Engineers Connections to the Xenomorph (Black Goo) etc in Prometheus

There are some Scenes with David were he comes across a bit Cringe-worthy and Bizarre, compared to his Quirks in Prometheus.   The Flute Scene! But there is a meaning to it and connection, but it came across a bit Homo-Erotic, Bizarre and maybe having a Innuendo.

It seems a lot has been SACRIFICED in this Movie to make it be around David, where some thought the Xenomorph would have a Larger Role and be about the Xenomorph, Sadly for those who expected this.. it was not the case and i am sure the David Creates the Xenomorph due to Certain Issues (some Fans Overlooking the Prometheus Themes/Philosophy) is something that DOES-NOT sit well with most fans NO-MATTER how RS wishes to Spin it. (Myself i get it).

The Execution of Davids Character, the Emphasis on just HIM is something that certainly can put a lot of Fans OFF his Character and Direction... One Big Gripe that the Xenomorph is now his Creation and THUS there is NO Eggs in the Derelict or even a Derelict on LV-426 some 17 years prior to ALIEN

There are bound to be other GRIPES too.. which kind of have explanations, well could have.  These Range from HOW the Engineers lacked the Bio-Technology for the Most Part compared to those in Prometheus never-mind touching on some Gripes from Prometheus to HOW those Engineers and the Juggernaught look NOT-QUITE like the Derelict and Space Jockey...

The Appearance of the Xenomorph also was not something that pleased some Fans, Especially the Chest Buster.. this Xenomorph looked unlike that from ALIEN.

Does this mean THEY are not the Actual Xenomorphs? wishful Thinking it would seem..  There are differences, BUT as RS has mentioned we are NOT-QUITE there yet regarding the Xenomorph.  Which implies that Davids Creations will go through some Changes before we get to the CARGO on the Derelict, Changes which SHOULD include HOW/WHY/WHEN does the Xenomorph become more Bio-Mechanical.  The Xenomorph in ALIEN does look a EVOLUTION of Davids Creation... a Problem HOWEVER is that the 1979 Chest Buster and Gestation Rates/Process seem like a DE-EVOLUTION

The Face Hugger/Gestation (not forget Lope) and Chest Buster (plus Growth) seem more Effective in Davids Xenomorph, compared to that of the Franchise.. But the ADULT in the Franchise seems more Effective/Evolved than Davids Adult Xenomorphs.

So ALAS... there are a Number of Problems with Alien Covenant and the Potential Direction it is taking us.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Batchpool

Nov-14-2018 3:00 PM

@BigDave

Quite a thorough run through of the fundamental flaws and gripes that have certainly been well aired since the release of AC. As to whether some of these gripes can be adjusted in the future remains to be seen. I do believe that there are some tricks that can be used to rectify some of the many issues raised and as time passes by, I now see that some of the minor gripes have the potential to become more problematic.

Since the release of AC the clock has been ticking and there have been some big changes in technology and the way movie viewers wish to see an end product. There have of course been changes in who is responsible for putting the end product on the market. With so many things having happened since the release of AC, I would say the nature of movie viewers has changed and will continue to evolve.

I am just going to focus on what is my biggest area of concern, that being the character of David. I am picking this out for special consideration because since the release of AC I have certainly seen more of an increase in stories wanting to pursue AI.

Hollywood likes to play it safe when it comes to making movies and has for a long time pursued tried and tested formulas. I think there is a danger however that there could be an oversaturation of AI inspired movies. If that does become the case, then would anyone really want to run out to watch a third instalment where the main Character is AI. Will the fire for such a movie have burned out?

One thing I would have liked to have seen introduced, would have been a completely new alien race. Something new and different.

Since the clock has been ticking, and continues to tick I think the David story should be ditched in the most part ( though not completely).

I am also one who does not believe that the beast is cooked. There is a lot to be said about the way a subject is presented, and when you have a director who appears to have lost interest in the main character of a franchise, then that’s just like making a Spiderman movie with no Spiderman, or a Godzilla movie with no Godzilla.

One sad truth that I think must be faced is that when Alien came out, it was put together by a specific and very talented team who are no longer present to form a collaboration that gave us the first movie, which was cutting edge, and very, very different and original.

Batchpool

Nov-14-2018 3:17 PM

Just as something of an add, I think a possible way of treating David that I could go along with, would be that at some point during the crossing with Shaw, he interacted with Engineer technology and his programming had been infected and new codes, info and missions added. One such sub programme could have been to destroy the so called Engineer planet, and he was also given the knowledge of how to create a xenomorph through a data transference. The end result is that David had become Not David.

BigDave

Nov-14-2018 6:18 PM

Certainly i can agree that the Xenomorph was one of the Main Elements of the Franchise, i do agree a little with Ridley Scott as far as prior to the Prequels we really had explored the Beast to a  Point that it was No Longer seen as big a Iconic Threat, this was not Helped in Part by the AVP Movies.... My Point being pretty much like how we have for example Jason Voorhees and the more Friday the 13th Movies we see the Less Impact he has compared to Originally.  You can add more Gore, you can add some Background as far as his History but all he pretty much does is go around and KILL people.  Thats pretty much the Nature of the Beast... now as far as the Xenomorph we see it Procreates via that Horrific Life Cycle that requires a Host, we see these Organisms seemed to go by Survival Instinct where the Objective is to Procreate, which they can do via a Queen Laying Eggs... We could introduce the Egg Morph and maybe that would Provide some Shock Value for a while.  But all the Xenomorph does is Capture some Hosts for Procreate, Kill to Protect its Hive, and Kill those not needed for a Host..  then REPEAT.  There is only so much Chest Busting, and Snarling and Killing that can be done before just as with Jason Voorhees it can get repetitive.

RS used some of those Phrases, but he did also make a few more, when he said that he thinks IT can go another few more rounds, he also said one time during Alien Covenant release that it has to be about HIM and you can EVOLVE HIM and i wonder if this was David? or the Xenomorph?

So the Beast is NOT quite cooked... but you have to be Careful on how you introduce and handle it, go the route of a AVP movies or Alien Resurrection or even ALIENS too often and eventually the Xenomorph may loose its SHINE and could become STALE.

The Problem is the Xenomorph is Heavily Associated with the ALIEN Franchise when you see the Prefix ALIEN while you may think about Ripley, Weyland-Yutani... the ALIEN references to that ALIEN Organism that was First Introduced to us on Screen from that Cargo of Eggs.  And eventually when working on the Prequels they decided they wanted to actually do something else, to expand upon the Franchise because there was more Elements in the Franchise than just the ALIEN (Xenomorph) and they chose to explore these and the Space Jockey (Engineers) and by even calling the Movie Prometheus they was trying to show us that while this connects to the Franchise/Universe they are wanting to explore a different Tangent.   The Problem is many knew that Prometheus was a kind of Prequel to ALIEN and set within the Franchise but could not separate it from ALIEN and so expected it as a Prequel to Explain the Origins and even maybe have Xenomorphs.  You cant blame those expectations, because indeed the earlier Prequel Draft was Alien: Engineers and by the fact it had a Alien Prefix you would expect more of a Alien Connection... and YES this is what Alien Engineers had done.

While Prometheus was not supposed to be a Literal Prequel and they intended to go off and steer away from the Xenomorph, by VIRTUE of the U-Turn to make a ALIEN prequel series.... they opened up that Door of Expectation Once again!

And indeed we was given a Origins Story (start of one) and indeed we got introduced to Eggs, Face Huggers, Chest Busters and the Big Chap... But they was NOT done enough Justice and DID-NOT have the same Impact that even the later Alien Movies did (inc AVP), the Neomorphs kind of had a different Impact because it was NEW. But the Xenomorph just failed to LIVE up to what it had Originally been.  Then we have the David creates IT, which makes it LESS Alien than what we could possibly had imagined.

With the IDEA behind the Prequels of the Xenomorph being just a Engineered Bio-Weapon  on One Hand this may reduce its Role a little, and make it seem Less of a Threat/Importance if its just a Wild Experiment by the Space Jockey, but RS had this idea even in the 90's and so without the Bio-Weapon Origins.... we have to ask HOW and WHERE do they take the Xenomorph, because there is only so much Queen + Eggs + Hosts that you can do.

There really was only maybe TWO options..

1) Expand on the Xenomorph, even as a Created/Engineered Bio-Weapon maybe they could show it Evolve, Become Sentient, and start to Grow in Intelligence and Scope... and GO Beyond those Primal Instincts that ASH admired.  Come to the Species then have its own Objective rather than to rely on Natural Carnal Instinct

Maybe this could have worked... we only have to look at David and his Evolution came about from the Humble Computers before David we had Mechanical Machines, Printed Circuits and Software Programs to allow Machines to complete Certain Tasks.... the Advancement of AI means we could eventually Create a AI as in a Machine and its Programing that can become more and more Advanced... UNTIL the Point it BECOMES Sentient..  and has its OWN Agenda... IT no longer just performs simple Tasks.. It becomes DAVID and his Twisted Mind and Agenda... IF all Machines become like him then we are DOOMED.

So we can take this and apply it to a Xenomorph, where they EVOLVE past the point of being a AI (Engineered Life-Form) that just acts by Survival and Procreation.

2) They keep the Xenomorph as just a Bio-Weapon, but were the LARGER thing to explore, is the Wicked, Cruel Intentions of WHOEVER would Create Such a Bio-Weapon and to what END.  And this is where Prometheus started to show us, by Virtue of the Black Goo and Experiments to show us clues to HOW the Xenomorph may had been created, but by not showing us THEM or how... but to delve into the Reasons WHY someone would Create Such a Horrific Beast.  And so the REASON for its Creation could be more Darker and Sinister than the Actual Bio-Weapon itself.

EBOLA is a Horrific Disease, a Mass Outbreak in a Large City of a Country like the USA or a Major City in Europe or Japan could potentially bring the Deaths of Millions. Especially if it INFECTS over a wide area before its determined where they Outbreak had came from.. and Imagine if it MUTATES so that it also be passed on as Easy as the FLU?  This would be Horrific and ONE of the Largest Threats to Mankind...

But as Horrific as it is...... WHAT could be more is if we Discover the Virus was a CREATION or a Bio-Weapon, intended to Wipe-Out the Population of a Certain Proportion of Mankind.  Its to WHAT END was this Creation  that becomes more Horrific than the Virus itself... was it a Accident, was it NOT supposed to Get-Out?  Or was it INDEED intended to Get-Out...  Its exploring the Reasons for the the Creation of such a Bio-Weapon and the Intentions of those who Created that become more Darker and Sinister than the Virus/Bio-Weapon Itself.

I am not saying EBOLA is a Bio-Weapon i am just using this as a example, for say like the Black Goo or Xenomorph  and the reveal of WHO/WHY it was Created as Potentially being more Sinister....   and this brought us to the U-TURN and CURVE-BALL that our Friendly Android David did so... and as a Hubris to Mankind for Creating something and allowing it Free-will and Knowledge.... because this also Fits with the Theme of the Engineers and Prometheus and so David was that STEP of the Ladder that RS thought... you know what, the Ultimate Hubris could be because of OUR own Creation and PLAYING GOD.

I get it and Potentially its Great.... IF for one moment we look at this as a Stand Alone Franchise and the Android Creates a Horrific Organism....  But as its the ALIEN Franchise... it diminishes the Iconic Xenomorph more, and more so its a reveal that is FAR from ALIEN as when we first saw that Derelict and its Cargo and Dead Pilot.

A lot of Damage has been done with the Xenomorph, do they carry on with OPTION 2 or try for a OPTION 1?  Its maybe a bit TOO-LATE to go for Option 1 but Option 2 is potentially Damaging but more so is something that goes against what MOST Franchise Fans feel the Xenomorph and its Origins should have been.

So they have to be CAREFUL how they use the Xenomorph and HOW to take it from here.... do we Abandon it before we do any more Damage, Relegate it to what it now appears a Engineered Bio-Weapon, that Survives on Instinct to Survive and Procreate and through this that it becomes such a Deadly Kill-Switch Bio-Weapon.

so that we can explore the other uses of its Origins... the Black Goo and what kinds of Horrors this can Produce, as the Black Goo Plot does allow for Massive Differences in Horrific Monsters and applications.

Option 1 and 2 could be combined if we introduce and apply these to another Race and its Agenda..   I just think it would take a MASTERSTROKE to carry on the Xenomorph if we are going to cover them over and over...  Unless Movies that Pan out like the AVP and Colonial Marines Games are what Fans would want to see.

It really is a case of HOW much can we keep showing the Xenomorph and HOW we are going to put it over, were those TWO Options are maybe routes we have to consider... stick with Number 2? or attempt to EVOLVE the Xenomorph as a Sentient Species just as David has become compared to a Basic Robot/Machine?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Nov-14-2018 6:42 PM

Regarding David and AI... i think RS is trying to show us that AI and Creation does not have to be simply a case of you have created a Robot.   They could have replaced the David Plot with a Replicant, or a Advanced Engineered Human (kind of same thing) it is still a AI, which our Xenomorph is also, even as far back as prior to the Prequels it was envisioned as a Engineered Organism.

But taking on board some of your comments about David etc, then indeed many may see him as NOT Human or a Life-Form but just a Robot.... but this is something they can CHANGE.

My Prometheus 2 was to cover the reason for Davids Creation which was that Weyland was attempting to Create the Perfect Vessel of which to UPLOAD a Human Soul, i touched up on Weylands attempts at Creating the Vessel as a Success, his attempts at Complex AI a Success... However to Upload the Memories, Emotions of a Human to Function as a AI  was a Failure...  it worked but the AI Program could not handle the Complex Emotions and would Deteriorate/Go Mad!  Thus leaving Weyland NO option but to turn to Dr Shaw/Holloways Pursuit of Gods as IF they are correct, and we can go MEET our Makers they offer him the Last Desperate Chance of IMMORTALITY which his attempts before via Science had Failed!

I can see David in future uploading himself into a Walter Body and maybe even further Systems.... indeed in part this is what i planned with Weylands Soul in my Prometheus 2/3

so looking at my idea of Weyland UPLOAD his Soul to a AI.. i think this would be Mankinds Ultimate Aim (for a few) to Cheat Death, as ONCE we can upload our Memories, Emotions and what makes us who we are to a Machine... then we could in effect become IMMORTAL.

But a Weyland Uploaded to a Synthetic would still be seen as a ROBOT!

Now let me throw a Curve-Ball what if we did a Vice Versa?

What if David could upload his Memories, Emotions into a HUMAN or another actual Living Organism?  Does he do this himself?  Do the Engineers or their Creators have a way to do this, do they GIFT David this or does he STEAL this?

Pinocchio becomes a BOY!

Would Fans still see HIM as a AI now? But they woulds still look at his Malice and Agenda and view this as him having NO Humanity or Nothing we can Relate to and Feel for him... (would he not be far off most of the Human Cast then lol ).

Would such a Change be seen as a GIFT?  Would David doing this have any Benefit, because he could become MORTAL, even if he is in a Super Hulked up LV-223 Engineer Body.  Accomplishing this would come at a HUBRIS because David could then be infected by his own CREATION or even the Black Goo.

But what IF he was tricked?  His AI Soul Transferred to what he thinks is a Evolution, but then Shock as he finds out he has been Transferred into a Mortal Body.... who could TRICK him, or who would Do such a Thing?

David would have to come to terms with being in a Organic and Mortal Body and the Horror that could present to him and maybe this could make him gain some Humanity or have us feel some Sympathy for him.

I am not saying this should be done... but your comments had allowed me to indeed think of HOW we could get David to be seen and Transcend to something that is not just  Robot...  Imagine if the Engineers make a Pact with him and claim they can Provide him a Superior Body, and Transcend his SOUL only to be given a somewhat Mortal Body or one that is a Amalgamation of a Synthetic Aspect, but also Biological that in Reality is just a Advanced Biological Vessel.... One that makes him Bio-Mechanical

ONE that allows him to become Victim to his OWN Creation and what a Hubris for him.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Nov-14-2018 6:50 PM

I will agree the AI heavy Plot can come at a cost.... because we do indeed see a number of AI Movies, and also movies about Creating Hybrids (i watched SPLICE the other day). The longer a sequel takes to come out and the more of these kinds of movies that come out in the mean time, does mean by the time we get a Sequel a lot of people could just look at it as "oh just another one of those movies"

Another Problem with the AI Plot is the delay.... David is a Synthetic, he should not AGE and the longer they leave it the Harder it would be to have David look like a 35 year old Human Synthetic.... without having to use some CGI.

The longer the movie takes to be made, the more chances are of us seeing David as only a recovered Corpse that gets Re-activated like Bishop in Alien 3.

Regarding Davids creation, i think its a case of Curiosity and intrigue into what made the Engineers Creators, and how his Father saw himself as Godlike because he was a Creator.   David would have witnessed enough to know a Starting Point is to Infect Dr Shaws Reproductive Cells with the Black Goo... he would discover the Black Goo is a Splicing and Evolutionary Tool to Create Hybrids and Extract and Apply Traits of different Organisms in the Pursuit of combing these Traits to create something Perfect.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

Nov-19-2018 7:30 AM

Daliens: OK but I still think that it looks stupid since it indicates that David created the Xeno which makes it look worse than it could have been. Oh, I found a clip on Youtube so he did not speak after that. Thanks Youtube so I did not need to watch the movie again.

Thoughts_Dreams

Nov-19-2018 7:32 AM

BD:

"When i mention Lope i still think there is not much depth to his Character as what is needed, but i just feel in the shorter amount of Airtime he had, he seemed to have more impact in his limited scenes…"

OK, now I understand. I kind of agree with that

"One Interview he would be taking us down the Path that he is not FOND of this or that...... then in another he goes on about the Movie should be about the things he previously was not in Favor of... and then he can change his mind again."

He has many ideas but he is not very structured and sometimes I think that he might contradict himself, that is at least the impression that I have gotten from listening to some podcasts. As far as the A to Z they could at least ave some basic ideas of what they want to do and some sort of idea to get there, like a bullet list. For example "we want to go to D and to do so we must first know how A B And C will show be."

Without that it is just a mess, right now they throw out ideas and pick up some of those and develop it. I do not think that this is a good way to run these things.

The Alien guide or what ever it is named seems to be a good thing. Number 1 and 2: focus on story and characters. The philosophical ideas might be there but they should not be what it mainly should focus on but then there are interesting ideas in Star Wars also and let's say X-men 1 since I am not sure if I have watched the rest of them. X-men is a movie where they also got the characters right by the way and also the themes so it is a good mix. What a lot of the movies that I like have in common is that they have well done characters since I am interested in what they go through and for that to work I got to understand them but that means that they also need to be well written. As far as I know Moulder and Scully were also like that in X-files, well written so therefore the story and characters worked for me.

I totally agree that they should not answer everything

I would like to say something about the Engineer and the space-jockey. If they make the Engineers like the one in Prometheus and think about scale for the SJ it might work but if they decide that the Engineers are those on planet 4 then they need some other lifeform to be the SJ.

About retconning things I would rather like to see them retconning AC mainly because it has David as the supposed creator of the Xeno but also since it is not a very good movie. Sure Prometheus was not great either but I think that I have bigger problems with AC because of what that means to the franchise although the characters were less annoying. Having said this I still watch Prometheus from time to time, I still have not watched AC since I saw it in the movie theaters.

Sure there might be a lot of things to include but then it would make a more expensive movie to make, right? Because the company that make the movie, and the movie theaters and so on are about profit then it needs to do well and if it costs too much then they might not want to do that movie and also after two let downs then one might question how big the interest is for a third.

Not very interested in David and what he will do on the ship, give him less of a role or something. I have lost a lot of interest in that because of Alien Covenant. They probably did not want that but that is the effect that it had on me. Still it was interesting to see the differences between David and Walter but it was too much about them. Better human characters and less androids please.

I take Aliens over Alien Covenant any day.

"Regarding the Space Jockey.... i think the Engineers could have fitted the Bill apart from Size Difference."

Agreed but then maybe the Engineers are of different sizes.

As far as who the SJ is it looks like to me to be some sort of humanoid creature in a suit. Just because it seems to be doesn't mean that it is, it could be something else in the suit.

I sort of liked the new monsters in Prometheus although they could have been a lot better. Still years after I am disappointed in the Zombie Fifield instead of the Xeno-ish one. The Engineers were interesting, it is just too bad that they got pushed to the side in Alien Covenant.

"We would be seeing Xenomorphs again… we would be getting a Scene that would TOP the Original Chest Buster"

Having interesting monsters does not mean that it will be a good movie. I sort of enjoyed the new monsters in Prometheus although they could have been better. What was that scene that would be better than the original chest-burster? The back-burster was interesting and well done, just too bad that the victim as many of the rest was just an anonymous face.

People that die from dumb decisions OK, people do bad things but if the characters would have been well done then I would have been alright with that. Poorly made characters plus bad decisions adds to a bad movie.

“Next we have to look at Characters... and sadly as with Prometheus maybe more so, we simply DID-NOT get Good enough CharaCharacter Development and Execution...”

A hundred times yes although they were less annoying in AC they lacked personality except for Oram, David, and Walter. Sure I understood the reactions of Faris and Karine with the Neomorph in the ship when they used that gun but I still did not understand their personalities. Yes they were afraid but who would not be? That does not make me see how they are in full as characters, sorry. Daniels and Tennessee had no personalities.

“They would be Totally Forgettable.  Does it raise Excitement and Anticipation to what happens with Daniels and Tennessee next?”

I agree, I do not really care but that is something that they should have taken care of before they started to shoot the movie. Go over the script again and make sure that the characters are relatable and well-done but they did not learn from Prometheus.

“The Viral Marketing was to make us connect more with the Characters, but this was NO USE to those who DID-NOT see them.  And to add them into the Movie would have affected the Pacing of the Movie.…"

Yeah but I would rather have those in the movie even if the pacing would be a little off. They should have used some of them and if necessary cut some of the time with the Androids talking about creation or what ever parts that were less necessary and interesting. Sure it was interesting to see the differences between David and Walter but that scene was too long and slow so replace some of that with (human) character parts.

I would rather have had a movie with more of the Engineers and less of David, that was a shame. Having him responsible for the Xeno is crap.

“… the Reveal that HE created it again is something that has upset Fans and maybe caused a Dislike for his Character.”

That plus it was all about him, and that he is portrayed as a psychopath. I bet that there could have been a lot of other things that could have replaced some of the David scenes that would have made for a better movie. David creating the Xeno, thematically it might work, story-wise it sucks.

I kind of liked the interaction between Walter and David and to see the differences between them but their discussion was too slow. The homo-eroticism in the flute scene didn’t bother me that much but the discussion was too slow and too little happened. That scene should have been more like how David interacted with Oram before he died, it wasn’t as slow.

“It seems a lot has been SACRIFICED in this Movie to make it be around David”

Like 70% of the original movie? That was a very bad decision

I understand the idea of David creating the Xeno, I just don’t like it. As far as the gestation time of the monsters and that it was not problem for me. My main problem was the characters and that it was all about David.

“They keep the Xenomorph as just a Bio-Weapon, but were the LARGER thing to explore, is the Wicked, Cruel Intentions of WHOEVER would Create Such a Bio-Weapon and to what END.”

I do not mind that, just don’t let David be the creator because it takes it too close to humans. It should be more alien (no pun intended) and the Engineers kind of fits into this so let the Engineers be those that made it or found it and evolved the monster. More about the goo and the Engineers would be nice to see.

BigDave

Nov-19-2018 8:18 AM

"Without that it is just a mess, right now they throw out ideas and pick up some of those and develop it. I do not think that this is a good way to run these things."

Regarding the so called Alien Guide they have written,  hopefully this helps with Future Movies. A Problem is this was written in connection to Alien Covenant as Canon, which means this NOW Set of Rules to Follow could have David as the Creator...  Which wont sit well in Future with many Fans.

But as i have mentioned a number of times a large theme is EVOLUTION and the Xenomorph has been through Stages of this.... starting with what ever the Engineers had done on LV-223 from these Experiments relating to the Mural/Deacon.... David was able to use this and Create his Xenomorph.   He had taken what the Engineers Started and EVOLVED it!

This does not sit well with most fans, and i think we need to get back to something more ALIEN and once the Xenomorph Origins are done, how much more can we show?  The Space Jockey Race should be the BIGGER part of the Story.

If David has taken what the Engineers were doing on LV-223 and Perfected it.... i think it makes more sense to come FULL-CIRCLE and the Engineers to then take what David has carried on and then FINISH it or have those who Created the Engineers come in and FINISH the Process. Which makes David the Middle Man....  He did NOT START or FINISH the Process..

It began with what ever Started on LV-223 in terms of the Black Goo or what it was used on that lead to the Mural, and it should END with a process at the hands of other beings and NOT David to Evolve his Creation to get us to the 1979 Xenomorph.

This allows David to play his Role and keep with what RS was doing, it allows for the Themes and Ideas set by Prometheus and the Alien Engineers draft.... and while it wont please EVERY Fan (some who will want the Xenomorph to be its own Ancient Species/Race) It gets it back to the A (Alpha) and Z (Omega) of the Xenomorphs Origins being connected to the Space Jockey Race or its Creators and where David merely just filled in M-O

Regarding Characters, this is Vital... and indeed its sometimes hard to do in a Movie, when the Plot is deemed more Important.....

A TV Series allows for Deeper Characters and maybe a TV Series that introduces Characters and Builds them is better, a Short TV Series say 6-10 Hours, that then Sets Up and acts as a Prologue to a Movie is maybe were the Said Movie can Follow Plot Points but we would be attached to the Characters that are Developed from the TV Series.

I think this could be the way to GO!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Sign in to add a reply to this topic!

ALIEN: COVENANT will act as a sequel to 2012's PROMETHEUS as well as a prequel to 1979's ALIEN. Alien fans looking to know more about ALIEN: COVENANT as well as when its first trailer is set to debut, should check back often. Alien-Covenant.com is an information resource for film enthusiasts looking to learn more about the upcoming blockbuster Alien: Covenant. Providing the latest official and accurate information on Alien: Covenant, this website contains links to every set video, viral video, commercial, trailer, poster, movie still and screenshot available. This site is an extension of the Alien & Predator Fandom on Scified - a central hub for fans of Alien and Prometheus looking to stay up-to-date on the latest news. Images used are property of their respective owners. Alien: Covenant and its associated names, logos and images are property of 20th Century Fox and are in no way owned by Scified and its related entities. This is a fan-created website for the purpose of informing and exciting fans for Alien: Covenant's release. If you have any questions about this site, its content or the Scified Network in general, feel free to contact Scified directly.