Alien: Covenant. A Load of Old Trash.

JamietheBastard

Sorry mate but who seem to have discovered the wheel. I've been saying that Covenant David is a nazi from day 1 (http://www.scified.com/movie/prometheus-2/review/925) and here is a review saying the same https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/06/02/ridley-scotts-horrific-depiction-of-fascism-in-alien-covenant/

I think that you are also venerating the original movie, but how was that movie not stupid? Kane putting his face in the egg, Dallas' blind obedience to corporate interests, chasing the cat through-out the maze like space ship? And let's not talk about the marines in Aliens.

David was the most interesting character in Prometheus, but so was Ash, they did not make the whole series about him? And for me, he was not, as he was doing a painfully obvious rip-off of Peter O'Toole.

Bland Prometheus Ripley rip-off? Well in the first Alien she was pretty bland, being just another final girl. She is developed in sequels. But in Prometheus, I've seen the background of Shaw, the excitement of discovery, followed by physical and psychological pain, desperation and finally determination. Yes sure some can criticize the accent and the debriefing dialog was bad, but that did not warrant a killing off.

And if you are so in love with Giger, here on this forum, you can pictures of Murals created by the Swiss artist for Alien in which the Space Jockeys are bald humanoid wearing space suits. So why the hate?

And to conclude with I hate Covenant, but I like how in it all the people who are infected are either security or using guns to resolve problems (including the captain). I would like to think that was a jab at American foreign policy, but judging by who was involved in it, I doubt that is the case.

Everyone has their own Opinion and ways to express those, i have to agree that Alien Covenant was one very FLAWED Movie, i think some of your points are very Valid and Accurate i think some could come down to a little misunderstanding of what was being shown. (The Spores for Example, Spores/Fungi are not Plant-life) but most other points i can totally agree with.

I have to say that Alien Covenant had some interesting ideas, but sadly the Characters were not well done, not enough to engage us to feel any real connection with the exception of a few (mainly Lope, Oram).  What the rest of the Movie comes down to is having to Shoe-horn a Plot, introduce the Xenomorphs and something New, try and please Alien Fans, and Aliens Fans while trying to not completely piss off the Prometheus Fans.. And what we ended up with is a Movie where there was too much to be covered within the restraints of the Running Time and so cuts had to be made to how deep they could explore Characters, Scenes and Plot Points had to be Speed up and Rushed for the Convenience of getting us from A-Z

Prometheus could have done with a extra 25-30 Minutes and introduce a bit Xenomorph like Scenes...  Alien Covenant could have done with a extra 25-30 Minutes and Reduce such Scenes.

I had started on a Re-write of Prometheus a few years ago, that replaced some scenes and added some scenes and fleshed out some scenes and it was not a HARD TASK to Edit Prometheus into something better... But with Alien Covenant it would be a MUCH  HARDER task.

Regarding Stupid decisions by Characters, i agree we have seen some Stupid ones in both movies, but then the same can be said as IgnorantGuy mentions with Alien and Alien, if these movies had people taking more precautions then we would not any real Xenomorph Movies of Threat.

I will say that adding the Character ASH for Alien was a Masterstroke and especially the Special Order 937, because without that Special Order and him being a Secret Synthetic and revealing a Secret Agenda... then Alien would have had another STUPID moment when he broke Quarantine and allowed Kane on the Ship.

Sadly the Prequels could have had some things FIXED with a bit of better writing..... the Drafts to the Prequels and Novels to offer a Fix for some of the Stupid Stuff... For example a Reveal that Walter had checked out the Atmosphere of Planet 4 and determined it was perfectly safe.  Likewise in Prometheus the drafts had a explanation for why Milburn and Fifield got so lost (they each thought the other had brought the Map Device).

SADLY when a movie is shot and cut to fit into a Theatrical Running Time, some scenes like this have to be cut as they can affect the Run-Time of the Movie.

I think Prometheus was about 70-75% there as a Movie but needed a little work to make it a Good Movie, i feel Alien Covenant would have had to have about 50% Changes to make it into the movie it should have been.

The atmospheric composition on planet 4 was checked by the lander's computer that detected oxygen 19.5%, nitrogen 79.4%, barometric pressure 15.4 PSI. You might have overlooked this because at the same time the crew was distributed their guns.

Indeed that is pretty close to Earths Oxygen 21% and  Nitrogen 78%

In a  real world situation they would have gone down with some kind of Space Suit and done a Survey and also investigated the signal while being suited up.  But in this situation the chances of then becoming infected with the Neomorph would have been Practically 0

The movie has many flaws, which also include a inconsistent Gestation Time for the Xenomorph i was going to start a thread the weekend on the Organisms in the Franchise Gestation Rates and WHY they vary so much (in particular with the Xenomorph).

Sooner or later they would have been infected with the Neomorph,  it is just that in a two hours film you wouldn't have time to show them walking around in a space suit until one of them has to take a leak and get the motes entering his body through his uretra.

I love Alien Covenant and I don't care what the haters say.

JamietheBastard:

Yup the script wasn’t very good, I totally agree about the characters. The only ones that were alright were David, Walter, and Oram, the rest had no personality as far as I could see. Were they adventurers? Careless? Logical? Emotional? I could not tell because they had no distinctive personalities.

As far as laughing, one scene that was kind of stupid was when the Xeno busted out of the chest of Oram and Oram was able to speak after that? That scene was dumb and also the David raising his arms was “meh”.

“Ridley Scott may be a good director, and an innovative visual stylist, but he is not a writer. His ideas stink big time… “

I totally agree, he is good with visuals but he can not tell a good story and his ideas are usually weak (like David being responsible for the Xeno, that sucks). Luckily for us his ideas were not in the script for Alien since they would probably have been silly. Having the Xeno as an ancient thing or at least something that the Engineers did would have been OK because it is not as closely tied to humans.

Yup David was better in Prometheus but here he was mostly evil. I think that he worked when he was together with Walter because then you could see the differences between them but he was better in Prometheus.

AC is not something that I will watch again, it is a robot movie and that’s it.

“The two condescending, patronising, self-righteous, A-Holes that put me down on this site...”

Having different opinions about a movie is fine but you do not need to look at the other side as being stupid just for that. Some civility is welcomed on discussion forums or the Internet in general, that goes for all sides.

The spores and the goo was kind of interesting but that is my humble opinion. I totally agree that the lack of spacesuits is something that I found questionable to say the least. Sure the air might be breathable but there are things that could be bad for your immune system aside from the air. Yup there are a lot of corpses and no one mentions a word about it, it is just silly. Maybe they were stressed but anyways.

Faris fucked up the shuttle. She was afraid so she panicked, OK it was not the best thing to do but I could kind of understand that. Wouldn’t you have done something dumb if you were chased by a violent life-form that you haven’t seen before? That is why I do not have a problem with that scene but I understand what you say.  The thing is that if the majority of the movie would have worked I would have been alright with that but the movie in general doesn’t so it becomes kind of “eh”. I did not have a problem with the back-bursters, the monsters were OK but the characters, and the focus on the robots made this movie a let-down.

You mention the face-hugger but maybe this was an earlier version of it since it is a prequel.

Yeah the switching between David and Walter was obvious for the audience maybe but not for the crew. This is how I look at that scene. I also thought that the android’s hair growing was weird.

The goo was interesting but it was inconsistent but then water can take different shapes (liquid, ice) so maybe it is one of those things.

I totally agree that the characters in both prequels are let-downs in general.

“Why are modern screenwriters unable to write scripts with convincing and logical reasons for the actions performed by the characters, rather than have them doing dumb things to drive the plot forward?”

At least it goes for AC and Prometheus, I don’t go to the movie-theater that often.

Yup David being responsible for the Xeno is absolute crap if you ask me and is on of my main complaints about it. Yes I agree that the Engineers were not that impressive but they could save it by having the SJ being a version above the Engineers like in a hierarchy.

It kind of deserved to be a failure because it wasn’t very good. I have not watched it for ages and do not plan to do so.

Big Dave: I agree that Oram was alright but Lope? Nah, I did not get any understanding of how he was as a character.

“Regarding Stupid decisions by Characters, i agree we have seen some Stupid ones in both movies, but then the same can be said as IgnorantGuy mentions with Alien and Alien...”

I guess that people did bad decisions in 1-3 but the thing is that the characters were better written so that was alright to be. The prequels mostly have lame characters so their bad decisions becomes more annoying so that teaches us a very good point in having relatable characters, otherwise it is annoying.

As far as laughing, one scene that was kind of stupid was when the Xeno busted out of the chest of Oram and Oram was able to speak after that? That scene was dumb and also the David raising his arms was “meh”.

Your memory is a little hazy, Thoughts_Dreams, you have to watch AC again.

Daliens: Yeah that is a possibility. I haven't watched it for a long time.

Thoughts_Dreams

About David raising his arms, you try to do that with a dog or a cat that is not too stupid or too indifferent and they might respond to it, it's a way to communicate. Kind of bonding.

daliens, yep imprinting and it has been well established that inter-species imprinting can and does happen in nature. Look up the works of Konrad Lorenz.

It was the films way of highlighting that David was the Xenomorph creator, and that the juvenile xenomorph had accepted him as its 'parent'. 

Due to Oram's intervention he had failed to 'tame' the Neomorph, but with the Xenomorph juvenile he was successful, and imprinting creates a significantly more permanent bond than taming. 

So David (with the young xeno mimicking him) raising his arms showed both the success and culmination of his genesis plans, and his success in imprinting himself as creator to this juvenile Xenomorph.

We had just established himself as both a creator and a parent; he had created life. Something that a synthetic like him should not have been able to achieve.

Like it or not, it was a profound moment in the film 

daliens

Sooner or later they would have been infected with the Neomorph,  it is just that in a two hours film you wouldn't have time to show them walking around in a space suit until one of them has to take a leak and get the motes entering his body through his uretra.

I love Alien Covenant and I don't care what the haters say.

I agree!

Due to the success of streaming/TV series we have been spoiled by screen-time. This type of platform allows much more time to flesh out, establish depth and lore to their narratives.

Something that film greatly lacks.

If Covenant had been made as a series, Im sure this would have been explored in much greater detail. But as BigDave pointed out, Covenant tried very hard to be everything to everyone invested in the ALIEN franchise.....but in a 2 hour film, and that meant skipping to the 'highlights' of this narrative.

Although flawed and compressed by its limited run-time the film has many interesting subtleties and symbolism.

As I mentioned when the film was released there are some  interesting ecological concepts presented in this film.

I Raptus Preaching to the choir- can I get an AMEN?

Time Restraints do mean less time to expand upon some scenes to make them appear to make more sense.  Also as i said earlier IF we had Crew who behaved more as you would expect Professionals to do so, then it would mean less chance of any THREAT coming into realization.   As some pointed out, you could understand some scenes like Faris and her Actions due to the Pressure/Panic coming from encountering the Neomorph.    If they had made it more Realistic by having them go down with Space Suits then this would reduce the Risk of a Neomorph Outbreak.

If they had done this (Space Suits) they could still change the Story to allow for a Neomorph Outbreak, by doing something similar to FIFIELD in the Alien Engineers Draft, where they could encounter Larger Spores and see them disturbed and release a larger CLOUD of Spores/Motes that could swarm around ONE of the Crews Helmet and land on it and as they attempt to move the Cloud by waving there hands and even trying to clear it away from their Helmet, we could see they swat some of them onto the Glass and then see the Spores/Motes MELT through the Helmet.  But doing this TWICE would be silly so you would have to have just ONE Infection if they went the Space Suit Route.

Going the None Space Suit route helped Theatrically because it could show us those Motes flying to Ledwoods Ear and that close up scene, would be more Theatrically better than showing such a scene of them getting into a Space Suit and also the No Space Suits allowed for them to show us a close up of the Spores when Hallet poked at them and then they released Motes into his Nose.

Sometimes the NO Space Suit helps in other ways, like with PROMETHEUS the Holloway taking his Helmet off Performed a few things.

1) Show us that INDEED the inside of the Complex was Terraformed to be Breathable to Humans.

2) Helped us to Ponder IF the Crew taking their Helmets off was what affected the ATMOSPHERE in the Ampoule Room and Caused the Urns to leak. If this is the case then it would give us a insight into a Reason for the Space Jockey Suits.

3)It helped the Narrative when Dr Shaw was concerned about the possibility of Airborne Infection as to what affected Holloway which when David said it was NOT, would then lead Dr Shaw to suspect something suspicious had happened.   As it was only the Audience who knew how Holloway was infected (and David) the Crew could have been lead to something Airborne.

So for those 3 Narrative Plot Points it required the removal of any Helmets.

@Thoughts_Dreams

When i mention Lope i still think there is not much depth to his Character as what is needed, but i just feel in the shorter amount of Airtime he had, he seemed to have more impact in his limited scenes, as far as performing his Role he was intended for (Protect the Crew) and some of his Insight.  And he seemed to portray with Oram more Emotion to the Situation.

With the Main Characters of Daniels and Tennessee they seemed to not be too affected by their Loss and seemed to get over it as if they was ROBOTS lol

I Raptus

Welcome back!

These two guys, I think they want to imprint on a rubber duckling.

I know it is a bit OT, but here is an example that supports streaming series vs movies. Ash vs Evil Dead went heavy into character and plot development that a cinematic follow up to Evil Dead or Army of Darkness could not possibly have achieved in 2 hours.

There doesn't seem to be a way to reply to individual replies so I'll endeavour to cover all points raised. No, I hadn't seen any reviews that raised the Nazi angle, I will most certainly check them out, thanks for the links.

Alien whilst being a classic, is not perfect, no movie ever is, but I feel that the Truckers in Space were just in way over their heads, and the Alien novelisation by Alan Dean Foster did imply that Kane was eager to explore the ship because he was sure that he was going to find something that would make him rich, so he wasn't being cautious. Dan O'Bannon didn't like the Ash sub-plot added by Hill and Giler, but it definitely added another element to the film that elevated it above a slasher in space flick. And Ron Shussett liked the Ash sub-plot, and the company treating the crew as expendable was believable and horrifying. Capitalist Bastards! Ridley Scott is not some sort of directing God who can do no wrong, sure he's made some stone cold  classics, but he's churned out his share of crap too folks.

I'm glad he didn't direct Blade Runner: 2049 (which I believe was co-written by one of the scriptwriters of Alien: Covenant) which whilst definitely flawed, was far better than I expected it to be and I actually quite enjoyed it (watched it four times now and I think it's pretty good.) Ridley Scott should stick with what he's good at and leave the ideas to the writers.

Now I posted this review after reading the old posts and I was quite pissed off, of course that's a stupid thing to do is post in the heat of anger, and I have edited the review. I have never put anyone down because their opinions differed from mine, I have never replied to anyone's posts in any way that could be considered offensive or derisive. The afore mentioned people attacked and derided me for voicing my opinion that Ridley Scott was making all this up as he went, and I was merely asking other's opinions on this matter when said idiots attacked me and were quite rude about it. I had also noted that one of these idiots replies to anyone's posts, not just mine were nothing more than patronising, condescending put-downs of other's opinions, which I find offensive. I re-iterate that I have never derided anyone's opinions because they differ from mine. If I had inadvertently caused offence with any comments I had made it was most certainly not intended, and I really don't think so, except for these two idiots, my interactions with others on this site had been respectful and I don't expect everyone to share my opinions. It would be a pretty damn boring world if we all agreed 100% on everything. But if attacked I will respond in kind, and I was most definitely attacked and put down by these fools for an innocent comment, which I stated was my own opinion and I was just curious what other's thought.

Thanks for the feedback.

@DK

Ash VS Evil Dead was kinda interesting at first but then it started to get a bit well disappointing, but certainly i see your point in that a TV Series allows for you to provide better depth to Characters and other Elements that you cant really do in a 2 hour movie.

@Jamie

Indeed i can agree with the point that things get changed as the go along, sometimes its not Entirely Ridley Scott, as he was quite Happy with Alien Engineers, but those at FOX felt that it needed to tone down the Xenomorph and Connections... then RS agreed and he wanted to steer away from the Xenomorph for a Prometheus sequel but once again those at FOX felt they needed to introduce it again and give us the answers to its Origins and HOW it ended up on the Derelict in ALIEN.

A lot does change as they go along and appears they dont stick to a set Plan A-Z and even when working on a Change of Plan, they could say have a idea of how Alien Covenants sequel would go A-Z but you could bet by the time we got to one a lot of that A-Z would be changed again!

I think the Biggest Criticism with RS has to be that it appears he cant make his mind up where to take each next Installment and what Elements he is fond of or not!  One Interview he would be taking us down the Path that he is not FOND of this or that...... then in another he goes on about the Movie should be about the things he previously was not in Favor of... and then he can change his mind again.

I think we need some stability and a Plan of Exactly how we are going to go from Alien Covenant to ALIEN and stick to it somewhat... but also consider how they can leave things open to explore other NEW stuff because ONCE we have gone the path of the Xenomorph Origins and how those Eggs get on the Derelict in ALIEN we then have to ask WHATS NEXT?

Hopefully the 10 Page ALIEN Bible of sorts (Guide) that they worked on as a guide for all Future Franchise Movies means they now have some Stability as far as the A-Z of Elements within the Franchise, even if they choose to keep some a Mystery as long as they themselves have a Answer for them in their heads/the Guide Book.

I would just like to inflict my opinion on everyone with my own take on things. History sometimes has a habit of repeating itself, and as such I would have no complaint if the start of the third movie began its opening credits with us seeing the good ship Covenant coming to grief, a bit like another third movie in the Alien series. I think a bit of mass destruction at the start of a movie could work as a good opener.

The point that comes to mind is who would the movie be aimed at?

I say this because I feel that both Prometheus and AC have failed to carve out a hardcore niche audience in the kind of numbers that generates sufficient profit to justify more movies. Whilst I am probably one of those who enjoyed both movies, that does not necessarily mean I liked the direction of the storylines. The big guy in the chair of the Derelict from Alien is not the same as the space jockey we see in Prometheus. Ignoring what has been written in scripts, the fact is that what is seen on screen is not the same. I refuse to accept that the big guy in the chair of Alien is an Engineer in a spacesuit.  The way the storylines of Prometheus and AC have unfolded I feel has created a great deal of division.  I know there are plenty of other and very valid issues folks may agree or disagree on, but for me the big guy in the chair is the big one. Should a third movie just happen to come along, I just hope that it is going to actually deliver me a beautiful mermaid and not a dead monkey with its legs sewn together.

@Batchpool

I think its hard to Gauge what the Audience would want, as we all have different likes and dislikes regarding the Franchise, but certainly a number of the things that the Prequels had indicated have likely not set well with the higher % of the Fanbase.

I think there would have been a % of Fans who would have wanted to had seen Prometheus Retconed but i would assume that at least double that would want to see Alien Covenant Retconed or Ignored.

I think however we have seen a lot of chopping and changing and so i dont think changing too much would be ideal, but certainly a few things could be altered.  I think a Problem is the SET-UP as i think with what has to happen between NOW and ALIEN to get Davids Xenomorphs on the Derelict on LV-426 is something that i find would be HARD to push into a single Movie... not without having to Produce a lot of Rushed out Scenes and Plot points which Alien Covenant suffered from.

The Covenant coming into Grief, could put us a bit into Alien 3 Territory, but its a possible Change... i think the Set-Up for the Sequel does mean quite a bit to happen, that would need TWO movies... or maybe 3 hours.... and a lot of what likely could happen between then (David and the Covenant, where it is going, what happens on the way, what happens when it gets to its destination).  Never-mind what happens after this and prior to the Arrival of incoming Parties.

It all seems like too much to fit into a single Movie, especially if they wish to conclude it with the Derelict/Space Jockey event.  And the part from where David is now (taking the Covenant while Crew/Colonist are tucked up  asleep) to when the incoming parties arrive... could be something that a lot of Fans would not be interested in, especially if its NO Xenomorph and what David wishes to do....

A logical way around would likely have to be HOW we had with Alien Covenant, which bypassed a lot of what happened from David and Dr Shaw leaving LV-223 until when the Covenant Arrived..   So for another case of simplicity would it maybe be ideal to have the NEXT Movie as a Aftermath....

Were we start where David has been were ever he is off to for a number of years.... so we wont see too much of what the Colonist get up-to... but we will concentrate on the incoming Parties..   This could potentially be a little too much like ALIENS though... but its something like that, which i think would make them the most $$$$

Also something like this route would cut out a  lot, and mean we can get closer to the Space Jockey Event, but even so i still think that would need a 2.5 Hour plus Movie.  And likely have to END with a Engineer or whoever, loading up or showing their Ship loaded up with Davids Xenomorph Eggs and then set off into Space.

Regarding the Space Jockey.... i think the Engineers could have fitted the Bill apart from Size Difference.

I dont think going the Skeleton Route would be good, because RS had for years said it was a Space Suit and HR Gigers Concept showed as such...

But i certainly feel we could be introduced to a Taller 10-12ft Race that is LESS Human than the Engineers but still a Space Suit.

When i was working on ideas for my Prometheus Sequels, i had envisioned something different to be revealed as the Creators of the Engineers a 12ft Alien Race Humanoid but also more Alien with some Aesthetics of the Xeno-Virus

The idea i had in my mind was taking into account some of the Concepts/Unused work from Prometheus which i have shown in the Image Below... its a bit Funny that when the New Star Trek Klingons came out they actually looked NOT too different to the idea i had for how i would have wanted MY idea for those above the Engineers to appear as.

Basically the Side Profile would have looked like the one Unused Fifield Concept (same skin tone/look) with a Face similar to the Fifield CGI but more so Engineer Concept B from image below... add the Xenomorph Warrior Ridges a little and Voila!   Bit funny that few years later i had this idea, those Klingons seem to look similar.. a little. (Just Face a bit different).

I feel the Answer could be to INTRODUCE another Race.

EDIT..... you will have to use your Imagination a bit as far as imagine these Combined with the skin-tone/transparency of the Main Bust in the Background and imagine the Amalgamation of Below.