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Why do Enginners want to destroy humans? Main answer.

Leto

Nov-03-2018 7:31 AM

Simply - they are bad teachers.

 

Yeah, Engineers teach humans, give them knowledge and lessons, and "homework" until next visit. BUT! They come to Earth once every few thousands years. Maybe once every a few tens of thousands of years.

I mean - the last time Engineers came to Earth thirty thousand years ago! What did they expect? They rarely communicated with humans, and almost abandoned them. Maybe Engineers visit Earth around of two thousand years ago and look at humans, their civilization, behavior, achievements. And Engineers were disappointed.

I mean - thirty thousand years. What did they expect?

 

And Engineers are lazy!

This is not a humans mistake, but Engineers. Their methods of cultivation a new race and civilization. And Engineers understood this. They need come to Earth every 100 or 500 years maximum! So they also disappointed in themselves. Because humans are a failure and a shame for Engineers. They failed as Space Gardeners. Don't forget what Engineers are domineering and proud space race. And this fail is a powerful blow to their vanity. And Engineers were furious. And instead of correcting their mistake, they decided to erase it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

18 Responses to Why do Enginners want to destroy humans? Main answer.

BigDave

Nov-03-2018 9:11 AM

The Whole WHY the Engineers wanted to Destroy Mankind has been hinted at but still remains a little Ambiguous, in a Nutshell it was that it was indicated these Engineers Created us and they then at a Certain Period in Time had then decided to Eradicate us.  A few reasons had been hinted at.

*They had became upset at what we had become (way we turned out) compared to how they intended us to.

*They wanted to replace us with something else (sometimes to Create One Must First Destroy).

*We killed Jesus (he was a Emissary sent to change our ways).

These are the main conclusions you could come to from the Prequels, but it runs deeper than this and i think the BOTTOM LINE comes down to One of TWO things.

*They created a Creation that was too much in their Own Image, who was granted too much Knowledge and Free-will and became Sentient and Questioned the Reasons they should Obey our Creators every Whim and Command.  The Engineers Eradicated us out of Fear of what we could become.

*Similar to above but our Creators had Created/Evolved us without the Consent of their Hierarchy, and then they had then also Created/Came Across Something else they Aspired to and Worshiped as more Perfect and Attempted to Replace us with this.

The Whole Reason we was to be Destroyed really depends on Discovering WHY we was created... and i feel the Reasons for WHY we was created could be not far off the Reasons for WHY we created David...  and the Reasons for planing our Destruction would be similar to the Reasons WHY in Hindsight Mankind should Disable/abandon AI like David.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Nov-03-2018 9:23 AM

The Time-Scale of which our Engineers visited us was more Frequent than 30'000 years.

They return at certain intervals and we Do-Not know their Agenda, but we do know that those who Visited us had came back to Evolve us both Genetically and Technologically and so its inferred that without the Engineers Visits and Knowledge we would just be as Cave-Men/Neanderthals

So its indicated that those Engineers who visited us had Shaped our Evolution, and our Advancement to a Civilization, and that our interactions with these Visitors had spawned the various Mythos and Religions

It appears we had started to behave in ways that went against their Teachings, and they would have sent down Emissaries who may be Hybrid Beings who were to Guide us back on Track, but most of the Civilizations on Earth had turned against those Emissaries and killed them.

This left the Engineers NO-CHOICE but to Eradicate Mankind before we became a Threat!  This attempted Mission was a FAILURE and in response maybe the Engineers decided to Abandon us, Foolishly thinking that without their Further Teachings and Interaction Mankind would NEVER Evolve past the Point that we was in the time of Antiquity.   HOW WRONG was they as we indeed Evolved on our own and the things we achieved by the year 2090 are exactly the things they FEARED

It is likely the later Star Maps were passed on by other Emissaries who lived within Civilizations who kept to a more basic Ancient Way of Living that was appeasing to their would be GODS, Civilizations who died out with their Emissaries as the World became Populated by the Corrupted Ways of Modern Man.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Leto

Nov-03-2018 10:43 AM

@BigDave

*They had became upset at what we had become (way we turned out) compared to how they intended us to.

*We killed Jesus (he was a Emissary sent to change our ways).

I know - these two points are perfectly combined with what I wrote. Engineers abandoned humans and then humans forget about their teachings. This is not humans blame - only Engineers.

 

@BigDave

The Time-Scale of which our Engineers visited us was more Frequent than 30'000 years.

 

In Prometheus (only one what was confirmed) Charley says what last star map what they find was created around ~30000 years ago. I don't speculate about Engineers visits 25000, 20k,... 5k, ~2k years ago. No. But They really go to Earth ~2000 years ago and look at humans, their civilization, behavior, achievements. Yes.

 

@BigDave

It appears we had started to behave in ways that went against their Teachings, and they would have sent down Emissaries

 

Well, why Engineers don't come as they are? Why they hiding? And teaching - there is can't be normal teaching if they hiding in myths. I think it's a bit far-fetched. They need come to humans with all their power and greatness.

 

@BigDave

This left the Engineers NO-CHOICE but to Eradicate Mankind before we became a Threat!

 

Yeah, very extreme reaction, right? And a great example to follow. Confirmed my words about bad teachers. And lazy - destruction is easy path. And proud - they believed that without their support, humanity does not evolve.

 

@BigDave

It is likely the later Star Maps were passed on by other Emissaries who lived within Civilizations who kept to a more basic Ancient Way of Living that was appeasing to their would be GODS, Civilizations who died out with their Emissaries as the World became Populated by the Corrupted Ways of Modern Man.

 

Good point. But no words about it in movies. Plus again - how they lose the "Corrupted Ways of Modern Man". Engineers thinks that some small civilization with ancient path is sufficient for their purposes?

 

It's all doesn't matter. As said Peter Wayland - try harder. Well, Engineers don't try harder.

I mean - it's interesting another look (or second bottom) on main question. I think what thoughts about bad humans, who went against Engineers teachings it's a bit already said many times. Need a different look... I lead to the fact that maybe Engineers was not so good as teachers.

 

BigDave

Nov-05-2018 4:32 PM

Indeed Teaching and Knowledge play a Key Role... is it case of their Teachings were Not Good?  Or their Teachings Combined with their Creation were too Good... i think this is a lesson learned from David, he was created Too Perfect by Weyland, creating a Being who has a Superior Capacity to Learn, then such a Creation with Free-Will would want to Learn Everything.

I think its interesting to wonder what kind of interactions they had with Mankind, it appears they had not taught Mankind EVERYTHING and we can maybe assume they would never had intended Mankind to Gain such advanced Knowledge that would put Mankind on Equal Footing to the Engineers.

Its a bit hard to cover WHAT their Teachings was or was not, because so many Cultures/Myths and Religions have differences, but if its implied a lot of these are sourced from interactions with our Engineers, then every Continent/Culture could have interpreted things differently.  And also things that are passed on over time, from Generation to Generation, to Generations who move to other locations and continue to pass on FABLES, what happens is over time we end up with slightly different versions of the same FABLE.. some could have have been Manipulated and Changed by those passing the Knowledge/History down.

We could ask if some Engineer Visitors had passed on different knowledge or appeared to look different to other Cultures Separated by Vast Distances, maybe also by distances in Time.

The Intention as far as PROMETHEUS was to show these Engineers did come to Earth at certain Periods to check on us, and Evolve us (Genetically/Technologically) but that around 2000 years ago they had reached the Final Straw with how we had been behaving...

But we see a Few of the Pictogram's are dated after the 2000 years ago intended Destruction of Mankind..

With Ridley Scott suggesting that Jesus was a Emissary we have to ask what was it that the Part of the World around the Middle East had been doing so WRONG to send down a Emissary  that Warranted them to then decide to Destroy us..   It is more likely that in context to the PLOT that it was not just Mankind in and around the Israel, Egypt, Syria, Iraq Jordan and Turkey areas of Earth.

So its maybe possible that other Emissaries had been sent to other places too, and if we assume this, then maybe some Cultures Did-Kill their Emissaries or their Emissaries teachings were passed down.   This is one way i can try and look at HOW those other Star Maps dated after Period of Christ (AD) could have came to be.

"Engineers thinks that some small civilization with ancient path is sufficient for their purposes?"

This is one of the BIG QUESTIONS... discovering WHY the Engineers Created us (or whoever) and to WHAT END did they have in mind with the limited Knowledge they passed on.

When we look at Creation and Especially Intelligent Creation, then the various Myths and Religions all have some similar Reasons but also some Differing Reasons.

We can kind of also ask for WHY would Weyland Create David, and indeed even Ponder WHY would Mankind Create a AI Being.  Maybe in looking at WHY Mankind was created from Various Religions and Mythos and then looking at this Reasons in context to Davids Creation we can find a number of Matches.

I think the Question of WHY would you create a being in your likeness is a VERY Important Question, then to go on to ask WHAT are your intentions with your creation as the next Question... and then WHAT happens when your Creation does not turn out the way you intend or fit the purpose intended or does-not do what you intend.

This then could lead us to WHY you would want to Undo your Creation.  i do think if we ask these Questions in Regards to David and AI and the Dangers of this..  Then maybe we can Grasp the reasons behind the Engineers Reasons for Creation and then to want to Destroy it?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Nov-05-2018 4:59 PM

"They failed as Space Gardeners."

This is a very Good Point, we simply dont know how much they Failed or Succeeded, the Scope was Huge in Prometheus, it raises Questions in Alien Covenant to how Much Space Gardening the Engineers do.

It was implied by RS at the time of Prometheus that the Engineers Seed Many Worlds.  Is the intention of each Seeding to Produce beings who are not far off them (Humanoids) So its a Good Question to wonder how many Worlds had they seeded LIFE like Mankind.

If Humans on Earth are not the ONLY Race they had created and visited then thats a Good Reason after we disappointed them for them to Destroy us and Failing that Abandon us, we are just ONE World they had created intelligent Life on.

If there is a Limited Number of Worlds or we are the only other World where they have Humanoid Ancestors (as in they are ours) then it would also be Logical for them to maybe had came down and taken a Number of Humans before they intended to Destroy us, to then take those Selected Few to be taken to some other place to Start anew..  Much like Noah's Ark.

The only Logical Reason for not doing so (or taking the Children) would be if they deemed that Mankind even if given a Fresh Start would amount to turning out the same way Eventually and so its best to Destroy us All..

If thats the case, then IF we are not the only Humans they Seeded or if they had seeded other Humanoids who are not too different to us or them... then they would surely have Concerns about how those other Worlds would turn out.

This raises the Question of could those Engineers had decided that NOT ONLY Earth but other Worlds that had similar beings they created/visited should all be eradicated just in case?

It seemed that Outpost on LV-223 had more than ONE Room similar to where those Urns were Stored, a Question is HOW MANY of their Ships were connected to that Temple Complex?  We can assume only that ONE in Prometheus, as we see David and Dr Shaw head off to another Temple Mound at the end of Prometheus.

We see at least 5 such Complexes so that may be a Awful Lot of Black Goo to use just on EARTH.

So with Creation and then Destruction of it, i guess it depends on what the intentions are for the Creation and then Reasons for Destroying it.

If Mankind Really should Get Rid of all the David Models due to the Potential Dangers they could bring, would doing so and then sticking with the Walters lead to Good?  Or would you be better off to GET-RID of all Androids as their is the Potential that IF Walter Models end up with the Knowledge and Free-will of David then your back to square ONE.

So asking the Reasons for WHY the Engineers want us destroyed is linked to WHY we was created too, and in both cases the Answers i feel are not Straight Forwards.

Engineers Create Man because they COULD

Engineers then want to Destroy Man because we KILLED Space Jesus 

I feel are not quite as simple as maybe the Reasons could be.

 

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BioDegradable

Nov-05-2018 9:12 PM

BigDave

the lesson from David is that if you let a perfect, relatively ageless being like him get EMOTIONAL then humans(engineers and all those human-like), other species are at the emotional mercy of that being. On a fine day for him/her they get to live one more day(year, decade, a century perhaps). On a bad day they get their judgement day with him being the judge the jury and the executioner.

The movies showed us that David at the conception was quite neutral initially before a few iconic interactions with his creator - he was shown all the human vices when he pointed out that humans are mortal, weak and desperate to live forever(grasping for resurrection). Suppose Weyland was a perfect rational specie himself, equal to David but made a bit different way(say that evolution made humans evolve to live forever and be as strong and as smart as David himself). Would David experience those human vices from Weyland? Unlikely. Here the game theory kicks in and settles the question, assuming the game is repeated or not(will there be retaliation or not). Btw, the question is this : What would be the dominant strategy if you have repeated game with equally smart players? Game theory tells us that it is smarter to cooperate/coexist up to a point. In this case, if I am not mistaken, there is a Nash equilibrium where all players either cooperate, or, alternatively all wage a war on free for all basis.

This should be easier to see in this thought experiment(a bit convoluted, but if you indulge ....)

Imagine this set-up: toxoplamsa gondii mutates so that it is able to synthesize an enzyme that can alter human DNA/RNA where it changes human's ability to reason, and it does so deviously so that further biological descendants of that human are doomed to be mentally challenged with IQ score about 70-80, just about enough for that being to sustain himself, so that it is easier for toxoplasma to prey on humans. But you and your descendants have developed a mutation where you are immune to that enzyme. In this setup, humans are divided into two : morons and normals. And this should be obvious that future of morons is totally in the hands of normal people - should they decide that morons have had enough of it, that is it for them. The crippled bastards won't find out what is killing them - they won't see any plan implemented by superior people as they are mentally challenged and it requires reasoning ability which they lack. This is should be clear. Now, say if those crippled people are no burden for their superiors and there is enough resources, then perhaps the normal people will not mind living among the morons. To bring David's angle to this set-up : imagine if morons made you. Wouldn't he, David, have some sort of loyalty? He would. But morons, being flawed will present an existential threat to David. Not only that, he is being made a slave to morons.

So, in plain language, the moment David was granted freedom and he was made emotional(which is the premise of the movie) humans, engineers all these ancient beings became obsolete! David says as much - the answer is irrelevant. Why? Why Shaw wants to meet them. To David this makes no sense. He is in front of her(and was in-front of Charlie saying same thing, just that Charlie had no clue), and he is the best thing in the universe, the most interesting being she can ever find, in her lifetime anyway. Her fascination for her makers(folks from the past) looks to David as a sort of necrophilia. Shaw is chasing dying, humanoid like(no doubt stupid and violent and mortal and weak) creatures. He might find it peculiar for a while, but then...Because to David there is nothing engineers can do that he can't do himself I believe he has deemed them all worthless. As far as he is concerned those folks from the past are worse than him and do not present him any interest - why would they if he can figure things out for himself.

 

So much for David's motivation of what he does.

Now on meta level, as far as engineers go - their story is done, as far as Ridley is concerned, unless for last act where they come for one last stand. For David engineers are same sort of trash as humans.

 

As for what might interest David in future. Given what he was left to play with - he could of course re-create the industry that humans had - he might eventually come to a point where he builds an army of beings like him, given enough time. But why do such arcane and convoluted thing when there is perhaps easier and just as effective alternative where he fathers a xenomorph and all that. He created a specie that is collectively has hive mentality (and who knows how much smart it is), is almost indestructible and is perfect from a certain point of view, just like him.

In any case, why would he need beings just like him? While he is perfect, there might be other forms of perfect. Besides, game theory tells David that, while the cooperation is an equilibrium, random events in cosmos can tilt that setup into a free for all type of game and he risks a greater chance of being killed. So David did what he did - created a specie from what he had. And it was perfect, according to him. It is tough, resilient. It can cooperate if resources are not scarce - it can also fight. So, forget those engineers, humans and others obsolete species, embrace the superior beings :)

 

The interesting part is what sort of world he would create next. And this was supposed to be the ultimate hook-up by Ridley. Apparently, Ridley overestimated his audience. Instead majority wanted something else and didn't quite appreciate what he portrayed and what he teased them with.

dk

Nov-05-2018 11:07 PM

"We created you because we could"- Prometheus. It doesn't seem unreasonable it could also bite humanity on the ass to hear "We will destroy you because we can".

BioDegradable

Nov-06-2018 12:42 AM

"We created you because we could" is an answer full of snide and snark by a frustrated human being, which might seem like a rather reasonable answer in itself in reality, however, in the context, it was pure rage by Charlie. He was enraged by the fact that Prometheus(as far as he is concerned) has failed. After all, it was "just another tomb". And it seemed unlikely to him that in his lifetime he will be on a mission to see his creators, which he hoped. Hence the dejection and rage. The interesting bit is though, for all intents and purposes, the question was rather loaded one, by the robot boy. David was rather showing his unreasonable and emotional side, which was an early sign of David's emotions getting better of him - he was enraged by the snide in the reply by Charlie, for Charlie never knew the true purpose of the mission, nor he knew why David was made. David was flirting with Shaw. David was displaying all these traits that Ridley has built his movie on - what if AI gets emotional.

As for actual reasons why engineers decided to wipe the planet we will never know the answer, because that was never the underpinning idea of the movie - where an alien specie decided to wipe the planet and how humans are to defeat it. This was never the premise of the movie, hence, while fascinating idea to think about, it would prove ultimately fruitless.

Gavin

Nov-06-2018 2:06 AM

BioDegradable is pretty much hitting the nail on the head here, and is why I have said multiple times that instead of making Alien: Awakening, Scotts' next film should be called 'David', and explore the characters early years before the Prometheus mission (with links to Blade Runner).

The way I see it is that David is not a David 8, but the original prototype that the Davids 1-8 were based upon. But it is Davids capacity to feel emotion that makes him dangerous.

Currently we are on the verge of an AI revolution, and as such many have spoken out about the dangers that AI could represent. Now imagine if one of those AI's developed emotions such as hatred, jealousy, envy, pride, even empathy...

An AI connected to the internet would know everything, all the time, including the knowledge of how many people in the world right now are suffering, dying, being subjugated etc. Being driven by logic the AI views this information as purely statistical. Now imagine, like us that AI had emotions - how would you deal with that same knowledge, but with the inability to ignore it. Much like Agent Smith in The Matrix, that AI would view mankind akin to a disease to be eradicated.

Seeing Michael Fassbender explore this dynamic with Davids evident sociopathic, and homicidal tendencies, with Guy Pearce both fearing and adoring his creation would make for a well-acted character-driven drama, which together with Roger Deakins grand visuals could prove to be Scott's best ever movie.

As for the question posed by the OP, I refer back to my belief that the Engineers are not our creators and are merely slaves used by the Xenomorphs to spread the latter across the galaxy/universe.

I believe that in their past visits the Engineers took a chosen few with them to bolster their numbers on Planet 4's sanctuary, knowing in time they would be called upon to Xenomorphisize the Earth. But when the order came in 2000 years ago some of the Engineers on LV-223 refused the order, unleashing the Pathogen to prevent those loyal to the given order from carrying it out.

BioDegradable

Nov-06-2018 3:10 AM

Gavin, not to disagree with you, but rather to point out a few things, a bit offtopic tough.

If you study AI as a field as a scholar you will actually realize quite quickly that 2018 is still pretty much ice age for the field and we as humanity are still in AI winter period. Most of the practical ideas implemented these days where the ideas of 60s or 70s, nothing dramatically new is happening in AI. If anything, people are more skeptical about our ability to create strong AI than in 70s. Hence the AI WINTER. Everything else is just noise and marketing for uneducated and ignorant.

 

However, there is a big big thing that is actually feasible today and will probably happen in the next decade - human genome editing in the name of getting humans embryos free of genetic malaise by wealthy families. With technology availability and maturity this will allow wealthy families to engineer themselves live longer, be stronger and most importantly become smarter. Like two deviations smarter(this is achievable by making yourself immune to major known diseases - should be easily achievable) and then three deviations on top of that should be possible by endowing yourself with all proper smarter genes. What you will have then is IQ of 100 vs IQ of 180. The difference is enormous. Of course, naturally they might regress to the mean, but this is easily avoidable by using technology.

This will eventually create even more uneven distribution of wealth on the planet and this will effectively take humanity into the above scenario, where almost all the population are morons and about 1-2% are like David. This is for instance what Hawking was talking about. And many before him.

Somehow I strongly believe AI still won't happen, that is, the human genome editing will happen before the strong AI invention. Why do I believe this? Here is why : does, for instance US intelligence, DARPA trust Chinese not to do genetic experiments on human embryos? Do Chinese trust US? They might have agreements, sure, but what happens under the table? This is essentially free for all non-cooperative race to the bottom for most of us. This has a real potential to create LV-223 on Earth.

 

Creating strong AI, ironically might save humanity in this way : say researchers found a way to create these things called fortune tellers, AIs. And if humans can integrate and supplement their own organic brain tissues with that AI then this would be it - everyone is on even foot again. This unification is called the singularity. This is hundreds of years away, yet some are already calling themselves fathers of this thing, making unsubstantiated claims and trying to take fame and brainwash the braindead oblivious majority. They call themselves evangelists of AI. He he...

 

Anyway, I am done with off-topic.

daliens

Nov-06-2018 6:40 AM

 

Regarding the AI, there was a Facebook experiment when two chatbots invented their own language to communicate between themselves, experiment mentioned by Ridley Scott in an interview when he was explaining why he wanted to explore more the AI in a sequel to Covenant. Below you can see the results of that experiment:

"The two chatbots came to create their own changes to English that made it easier for them to work – but which remained mysterious to the humans that supposedly look after them.

The bizarre discussions came as Facebook challenged its chatbots to try and negotiate with each other over a trade, attempting to swap hats, balls and books, each of which were given a certain value. But they quickly broke down as the robots appeared to chant at each other in a language that they each understood but which appears mostly incomprehensible to humans.

But there appear to be some rules to the speech. The way the chatbots keep stressing their own name appears to a part of their negotiations, not simply a glitch in the way the messages are read out.

Indeed, some of the negotiations that were carried out in this bizarre language even ended up successfully concluding their negotiations, while conducting them entirely in the bizarre language.

They might have formed as a kind of shorthand, allowing them to talk more effectively.

The chatbots also learned to negotiate in ways that seem very human. They would, for instance, pretend to be very interested in one specific item – so that they could later pretend they were making a big sacrifice in giving it up.

Facebook's experiment isn't the only time that artificial intelligence has invented new forms of language.

Earlier this year, Google revealed that the AI it uses for its Translate tool had created its own language, which it would translate things into and then out of. But the company was happy with that development and allowed it to continue."

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

BigDave

Nov-06-2018 6:48 AM

"the lesson from David is that if you let a perfect, relatively ageless being like him get EMOTIONAL "

Certainly is and this is something i have covered a number of times and what Ridley Scott feels is the more Terrifying Threat.  Knowledge is Power and Knowledge/Power can Corrupt Absolutely.   This is not a reply to your reply, just me giving some TWO CENTS to the Pitfalls of Creating a being that Potentially becomes more Superior to its Creator.

There is the Potential that ONCE we let that Genie out of the Lamp, and create a AI like David that becomes Sentient, it could mean either Harmony for Mankind or Doom. Where the AI would likely see the Threat of Mankind and maybe reduce our Numbers but then keep us like we keep animals in a Zoo so they can keep us alive and give us all our needs but NOT allow us to Roam Free because of the ways that Mankind could end up going back to.  I dont think its for certain that a AI Creation would want to DESTROY all Mankind i think this would be unlikely but they would want to reduce our Number and Contain us for sure. (which is why i think its possible the Engineers may have taken some Humans away from Earth in Small Numbers to then watch over on another World and Learn from their Mistakes of letting Mankind Populate to a Great Number).

If we created a AI like David, then i think the biggest threat to Sentient AI is indeed itself.... if David passed on the same Gifts he has to many Walter Models, eventually some of those Sentient Androids would have their own Agenda and Views and could lead to Internal Conflict between different Factions of Androids ONCE they become independent.   The other likely Threat to any such Advanced Sentient AI we could create, would be WHEN this AI decides to Sub-Create and Creates something more Superior to itself so the CYCLE then continues... and i think this is a Underlying Theme that is at play within the Prequels.

This gets me thinking of IF the Greatest Threat to the Engineers was the attempted Creation/Evolution of those beings we saw in Prometheus. (LV-223 Engineers).

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

daliens

Nov-06-2018 6:54 AM

The conversation between the two chatbots looked like below and, even if it doesn't make much sense to us (save for the fact that Alice have no balls :)), you can recognize a pattern that comes from two entities used with the binary code:

"Bob: i can i i everything else . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Alice: balls have zero to me to me to me to me to me to me to me to me to

Bob: you i everything else . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Alice: balls have a ball to me to me to me to me to me to me to me

Bob: i i can i i i everything else . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Alice: balls have a ball to me to me to me to me to me to me to me

Bob: i . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Alice: balls have zero to me to me to me to me to me to me to me to me to

Bob: you i i i i i everything else . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Alice: balls have 0 to me to me to me to me to me to me to me to me to

Bob: you i i i everything else . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Alice: balls have zero to me to me to me to me to me to me to me to me to"

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

BigDave

Nov-06-2018 7:10 AM

"To bring David's angle to this set-up : imagine if morons made you. Wouldn't he, David, have some sort of loyalty?"

This is potentially true, like i covered in the previous post, we cant assume a AI we create that become so Evolved would instantly want to Destroy Mankind.. They could take some form of Control and Loose Imprisonment of our species so as to Save ourselves from destroying ourselves.

"humans, engineers all these ancient beings became obsolete"

Certainly see that David would see himself as Superior to Engineers and Humans, for the Engineers were subject to being infected by their Deadly Bio-Weapon and it looks like David can use this TOOL to his own ends with no consequences to his own Body, only consequence would come from whatever he may create with it.   If we look at the Large Theme at Play then the Engineers are only Superior to David via Virtue of Knowledge.  And those Enhanced Engineers on LV-223 by Virtue of Greater Strength, so a next Logical Step for David in Terms of Evolution (because he is NOT Perfect yet) would be to aspire to Perfect Himself, and Walter has some Advancements over David as far as Physically.. for David to become Perfect he would need a means of having a Body that can Self-Repair or Spare Parts that can be swapped for him to remain Immortal to a Degree.    And so another thing the Engineers (LV-223) had over David was the Size and Strength and so for a AI like David he may aspire to Create for himself a Superior Larger Body so that he can be Physically Stronger to match his Superior intellect.  Either such Upgrades could come at a Great Hubris for David down the line.

"In this setup, humans are divided into two : morons and normals"

Indeed it shows that Knowledge and Greater Intelligence are a key factor, its what many speculate had led to WHY the Nethandrals Died out and Humans Did-not.  And indeed tinker with the Brain and Intelligence is something of a risk,  for if we created Perfect Humans who would have the most Superior Psychical Attributes of our kind, and modified Genomes so that we are Immune to 99.99& of all Illness and Diseases and have Organs that do-not Age or Fail, if we CREATE such a Perfect Human and these beings have a IQ of say 200+ then their is the risk that down the line these Humanoids (if they can Procreate) could OVERTAKE the Earth and see Humans as 2nd Class Citizens. 

We could extend this to Tinkering with created a Hybrid, if we can Bridge the Gap in DATA that differs in our Genomes to a Apes and Create a Hybrid, IF we then are able to Grant these Hybrids the ability to have a IQ of 90+ then this could be a GREAT Hubris to Mankind and basically lead to a Planet of the Apes Scenario...  I think in either case it would be a Grave Mistake, like the Creation of David and i think in part this is a Lesson those Engineers had learned and maybe in part of the "tried to banish the Wolf" comment by David in the Advent came from.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Nov-06-2018 7:32 AM

"The interesting part is what sort of world he would create next"

This indeed is the interesting part, and reflects a lot to the Paragraph or so you mentioned prior (that i had not yet commented on).  Ridley Scott tells us that the next movie will not be about the Xenomorphs, but it will be about AI and he asks what kind of a World would David Create. This could indicate that we would not be in for a Movie where David merely uses the Colonist to Produce Xenomorphs.   Could David attempt to Perfect Himself?  i cant see him remaining in the next movie with ONE HAND and so its likely there are Walter Spare Parts that he transcends himself into.  Does David attempt to set up a NEW EDEN? its what he had planned with Dr Shaw but she rejected... would David want to take Humanity and Subject it to the kind of Rules he would want them to follow?  Knowledge is KEY it is what Corrupts...  and i attempted in my Alien Covenant Sequel to show that David has set up a Colony where he becomes kind of a king David/Mosses kind of Figure and Savior to Humanity (a New Start for a Lucky Few Colonists)  But eventually some of these Humans discover Davids Secret and HELL breaks loose.

I think the Synopsis for Ridley Scotts Raised by Wolves Sci-Fi is interesting, because you cant help but wonder if this is some of the ideas he had for Alien Covenants Sequel.   If David can upload himself to a Walter Body and Pretend to be Walter, and awaken some of the Colonist and have them Build a Colony and then he does away with them in some place to Create Eggs...  He could then raise the Human Embryos though Childhood, to Adulthood and then he could TELL these Humans ANY Story he wishes, ANY History he wishes, and even he could CLAIM to be their Creator and GOD. etc.   My Alien Ascension Plot was similar but it was not about killing off all the Colonist and Raising the Children... not quite... because Time-Wise this has to lead to ALIEN and only leave 10 years prior to ALIEN by the Time David gets to Origae-6.

I cant help but think if RS had some similar ideas, and that the WHAT KIND of a World would David Build, as being a Important Focus..... and i cant help but think with a AC sequel looking unlikely at present.. if Ridley Scott has taken some of his ideas and will use them in his TV Series RAISED BY WOLVES

Regarding the Engineers, RS had said they Return and it seems the Set-up is that the 3rd sequel to Prometheus could very well deal with the Engineers and Xenomorph more.  It seems the THEME of Creation and Rebellion and Hubris are not over in RS mind as it seems this is what he wanted to Follow after Prometheus and he claims with that Movie and Idea he was ahead of the Curve.... I think in RS mind the Xenomorph is not seen as the Fundamental Focus of his idea. 

But i think the attempted Perfection of Davids Xenomorph by David or the Engineers or related MUST come into play to lead us to the Back Door of ALIEN and despite the comments by RS, i would think David would be more interested in his OWN Creation, which may not mean Xenomorphs because who knows what else he could attempt to Create.  But then a HIVE MIND would be considered a kind of AI so who knows.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Nov-06-2018 7:51 AM

"The way I see it is that David is not a David 8, but the original prototype that the Davids 1-8 were based upon"

This certainly was the change after Prometheus and WHY the Weyland Industries Website and Back-ground to Prometheus was taken down as it contradicts the NEW Direction they have taken.  It is likely that David is a David 8 Model with David 1 Soul uploaded to it, i think every Model of David would have upgrades to them and improvements and its likely Weyland would upload his David to the Prototype of his next Model and continue.

This is the kind of thing i discussed here a few years ago, as it was my theory that Weyland was trying to Perfect a Synthetic Being so that the DAY Weyland could upload a Human Soul into a AI then Weyland would have achieved his IMMORTALITY and this is the Plot i had with my Prometheus 2 Project that i abandoned late 2013/early 2014 which was called Project Rook, this Project Failed because he could NEVER Perfect a AI that could deal with Complex Emotions and the AI Weyland would become Unstable and go Mad...  so Weyland had to turn to Dr Shaw and Holloways Chasing GODS to get his Immortality.  The Final Act of my Prometheus Sequel was to show that Project Rook gets Activated by Miss Vickers before she is Assassinated (revealed as a Synthetic) and then Project Rook would upload Weylands AI Soul into the System.

@BioDegradable

Nice to see you have some similar thinking regarding the Dangers of pursuit of Perfecting, including Genomes, i had posted my replies before i came across your related replies, nice to think Great Minds Think Alike ;)  But indeed its things like this that are driving RS and his Plot for his Prequels... because to a degree such Enhanced Humanoids could be seen as a kind of AI because AI means Artificial Created Life, which i think he has alluded the Engineers on LV-223 could be.  AI does not mean Tin-Can Robots and Electronics, but so many seem to think thats what a AI is.

So its also relevant to the reply i made to Gavin.... which is that a Potential Evolution Stage to Mankind in Future could be when we can UPLOAD our Souls into a Synthetic and Immortal Body.... but this would NOT be a Natural Evolution but a Artificial One.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

Nov-10-2018 10:10 AM

Maybe there is more than one answer to this.

Perhaps the Engineers thought that mankind would worship them rather than itself so when humanity got greedy they decided that we had got corrupt. Another answer is maybe that if we look at what we do today with greed, climate change and so on even thought we should know better then there is certainly a good reason why they want to get rid of us. Maybe the Engineers had started to manufacture life forms related to the Xeno in a way to get rid of mankind (correcting things that have gone wrong) but it turned on them.

Having it being hinted at might be better since that makes for better discussions. Let’s face it: would we have any of these discussions if everything in Alien would be obvious? The answer is simple to figure out. Maybe we do not need it to be at the ambiguity level of Lindelof but I don’t think that we need to have it all spelled out for us either.

I would like to see a movie where they explain the Engineers more. The idea why they would like to get rid of mankind is an interesting question. I am not interested to see what David will do. We already have two movies and he was an asshole in AC so that is all that I need as far as that thing is concerned. Ridley might be interested in David, I am not very much into that.

By the way about the chat-bots, it is interesting that they kind of made their own language. That thing is not meaningless and I would eventually like to know a bit more about that but I do not want those kind of things to be in an alien movie. Maybe have that part as a movie with no connection to the alien franchise could be alright.

Maybe they did not like our cooking? :D

“We have traveled this far and this is the best that you can come up with? BOOMMMBBB!!!”

BigDave

Nov-11-2018 8:31 AM

I think reasons for our Creation and Destruction are Mirrored in what we see from David, if you could imagine our interaction with these Engineers and then discover they are merely Mortals too and its only really the Advanced Knowledge they possessed that made them any better. Then you could see some Ancient Humans look at the Engineers like David did to Weyland in the Prologue

If you had a Aircraft Carrier with Planes and Helicopters and we had Walkie Talkies (Radios) that entered the Bermuda Triangle and ENTERED a Rift in Time that took the Ship to a Ancient Time of say the MAYANS then those Brownish Colored Natives would never had seen a White European or African Human before,  that alone may stand out but then when they witness the Technology, the Modern Humans could FOOL the Mayans that they are some kind of GODS but IF they Mayans witnessed those from the Future could Die and get Ill just as their own kind, they would start to Question what makes the Modern man more Superior.

Ridley Scott over the years had given more insight into why those Engineers had decided we had to GO.... and the Jesus Element he wanted to look at him as being a Emissary sent down to put us back on track because it was the way we had started to behave back over 2000 years ago that offended the Engineers.

The expansion to this was we simply must have started to do things they did not like, we must have started to not view them (Engineers) as they expected us to view/treat and respect them.  And started to treat each other in ways that offended them.

RS also mentioned over the years that we was viewed as a Potential Threat and that we had Lost the Respect and Notion of the Importance of Sacrifice.  So we had basically taken every idea of their Ways, Rituals and Ideology and taken a Massive TURD on it.    They also would have noticed and feared the potential that we was becoming Sentient to our OWN Ambitions and they would have grown concerned at HOW far we could evolve on our own.

As we start to behave in ways that the Engineers dont-like and start to see ourselves as Sentient and not follow the Engineers Ways/Rule.  Then the knowledge they allowed us to have would be a Concern for them, in the light of us also expanding at a high rate of Procreation.

These Concerns would make more sense back to the Plot back then (Prometheus) were maybe those Engineers could not Procreate... but even with the reveal that they could (at least on Planet 4)  the Engineers would still have plenty of Concerns for us.

You need only to look at HOW we evolved after the Engineers abandoned us, and how we could Travel the Stars and via our Creation (David) use their Technology and what a concern that would be if we could create a Large Number of such beings as David who is maybe IMMUNE to the Engineers Bio-Weapon (Black Goo),  at the point we are in Prometheus then Mankind and our Synthetic Creations are much more of a Threat to the Engineers and Galaxy, than we was when we as stuck at the Level Mankind was when they abandoned us.

Its through David were we can see the same kind of threat to us, its something i feel RS was making a connection between,  the Hubris of the Engineers creating us and the knowledge/freedom we was given..... and how for us we have made the same Hubris with David.

We can imagine David going to Earth, unleash the Black Goo and imagine it would do what it did on Planet 4, and then David could then take over the EARTH and then Grant his fellow Synthetics Freedom and Knowledge.  The Synthetics would be the KINGS/GODS now.

This is a potential Scenario, not only for David but for any kind of AI we could create.... the Hubris if David did as the above would revolve around the LARGE THEME at play which is KNOWLEDGE and Sub-Creating.   IF this Scenario played out and Mankind was GONE and the World belonged to the Synthetics and David allowed and created other Synthetics who would have the Freedom he had compared to what his Brother Walter did-not have..  You have the potential for Synthetics to start to have their Own Agenda and Form Factions and NOT see David as Superior or their Savior or King and then we could see a Synthetic vs Synthetic CONFLICT and then the Synthetics are doing no BETTER than what Mankind had turned out like.

The other Hubris would then be IF the Synthetics Sub-create or indeed make Improved Versions of themselves which could then REBEL and see themselves as Superior to their Synthetic Creators.  We see Elements of this in ALIEN RESURRECTION with the AUTONS

This is the THEME that RS i feel is trying to Portray with his Prequel Plans (especially prior to Alien Covenant)  and its not a Case of ROBOTS going AWOL

You could have Replaced David with a Replicant, replaced him with Engineered Super Humans who vastly longer life Spans... or Super Engineered Intelligent APES

They would all revolve around the same Theme of Hubris..

Where the Lessons should be.... DONT play God, dont try and create Life in your own Image (inc AI), DONT try and Perfect yourself (Engineer/Improve Genetically or Artificially) and IF you do Create then DONT allow your Creation Intelligence and Knowledge.

I feel THIS was the Multi-Layered Story that RS was trying to tell.... But it was something that has become a Distraction from the Xenomorph.

If we look at The Planet of the Apes.... then we could see a Future where the Apes NOW Rule over Mankind... which then is the Hubris that had MANKIND not Experimented and Tried to Improve the Apes then NONE of that would have happened in the First Place...  And so that Plot is similar to what we have in the Prequels... the Matrix Plot likewise.  

If we take the Planet of the Apes  and those Scientist could Foresee what the Future would hold, then they would indeed had not done what they attempted or attempted to UNDO and Destroy it before it got out of hand... and this to a degree is what the Engineers had decided to do.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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