Infos gathered from the commentary, many interviews.
-LV-223 was a military outpost. Confirmed by Ridley Scott on the commentary of AC.
-Engineers are not gods, just superior beings. Confirmed by RS on the commentary of AC and many interviews.
-Engineers (in the context of those from Planet 4) have a lifespan of around 150 years. Explained on the commentary of AC by RS.
-The giant stone heads inside the citadel represent 6-7 elders of the entire civilization; Intellects, artists, wise men. Confirmed by RS on the commentary of AC.
-The artbook also described the giant stone heads as a way Engineers celebrate themselves. Like a depiction of false gods watching over everything.
-Beings on Planet 4 are Engineers. This was confirmed by the filmmakers in the interviews, commentary of the film, artbook, and the people who played them.
-There are female Engineers. Females are seen in the flashback and in some of David's illustrations. Also, people who got to play these Engineers said
there were females on the set.
"Now this is a good question! We worked with a second unit that day and the second unit director wasn’t giving much away to what we really were but they did confirm we
are Engineers! And the costume designer called us all “her Engineers” so we do know we are 100% Engineers but I do believe our origins is something
M.r Scott is holding close to his chest… what I will say there was speculation that the Prometheus Engineers where more like a military type rather than our more
civilian look I think all will be revealed if Sir Ridley gets his way and films the next one."- Billy Mansell on AVP Galaxy interview.
-The Engineer's role is evolution. Explained on the commentary of AC by RS.
-Ridley Scott also said that he sees Engineers as gardeners of space.
-During a podcast with empire magazine, Scott explained that the Engineers visit planets they seeded with life to check on them, and to update them. If their creations proved
to be a disappointment, the Engineers would wipe out the whole planet and start all over again.
"If the planet went wrong, they would want to wipe it clean. But that could take 500 years. When they revisit –
because different visitors would come back and see we’re not doing so well – they would look at these human beings that are jerks,
that are killing the planet, killing themselves, can’t settle down, they’re like a bunch of children. We should wipe it clean."
-Ridley also mentioned on the commentary of AC that the Engineers let their children, human beings, get out of control. So humans are both no longer valid
-Despite being more powerful than humans, Engineers were defeated by their own invention. Explained on the commentary of AC by RS.
-Engineers send their ships on different intervals. When Shaw and David's juggernaut arrived, there was a welcoming ceremony occuring as 2 million Engineers
gathered at the plaza, welcoming the juggernaut's arrival. When David unleashed the ampules, they were shocked by the act. Explained by RS in the commentary of AC.
-Scott James, the guy who played the Engineer in AC, in AVP Galaxy interview also indicated that Engineers send their ships on various missions.
"The Engineers send the crescent-ships out on a various mission and they return infrequently. It’s a very big event and those at home make the effort to show their respect and welcome the ships and their honored crew home. This seems consistent with the ritualistic and important ceremony afforded to the sacrificial Engineer in Prometheus. No-one was expecting David’s ship back, but they’re obviously a trusting race…a bit too trusting maybe! They realize something’s wrong when the cylinders drop but don’t know what’s happening then yeah…it becomes pretty apparent after it’s too late."
-Ridley Scott and Damon Lindelof mentioned this many times before, but they speculated that The Engineers didn't originally create the black goo.
"Human heaven? Goodness, humans don't go to heaven.
Someone just made that up to prevent you from all going nuts."
- Kryten, Red Dwarf S3E06 "The Last Day"
Interesting. If the Xenomorph is the PERFECT organism, that seems to say it needs no more evolution or even a need to propagate. Indeed, we don't see it actually die in the first two movies. It seems important to ask what is perfection. Ash gave its take in Alien (yes, it and not he), but there can be different interpretations of perfection. I would say that there is no such thing as perfection- only the pursuit of it. That would mean that the Xenomorph could continue to evolve in a myriad of ways like Gavin mentioned.
@Gavin I don't think what you describe is evolution. For that you need many nonviable variations. In the series, we only see that in Resurrection. If the Xenomorph infection can make anyone anything it touches viable in the current environment (both Kane and the Eggs are foreign to LV-426 and the vacuum of space), why not make it self a body from scratch? Or if it was only a weapon why not remain an airborne virus and multiple in the host by the millions?
As it is presented it only makes sense if it was made by a sadistic A**-hole and the only one presented in the whole series is David in Covenant.
And what sense does it make to shoot a prequel to a prequel? It would only ret-con stuff to tell a story contradicted by what was implied in Covenant. David arrives on P4, drops the bomb, the engineers die, the ship crashes due to security measures -stated in one of the scripts-, and after that he experiments for 10 years (if he can or cannot leave the planet is questionable, because if he couldn't it would contradict the 300 IQ Scott claims he has in the commentary of Prom). The only thing we don't know exactly when and how Shaw dies. But from Covenant we find out that David killed her in his experiments, as he promised to do to Daniels. So where is the story here? Furthermore, we know that she would die to save humanity,so what sense would it make for her to accept to birth monsters for some ancient dark entities?
This is how I see it: if the xenomorph is a species in its own right that existed for aeons in the universe. It has reached the peak of the evolutionary process when it attained the biomechanical stage. It is perfectly adapted to any environment, it needs no oxygen, no food, no water, you name it. Ridley Scott said it can grow back severed limbs. It can reproduce by egg morphing a host and the eggs can keep the facehugger alive for ages. Why not be immortal? And by what right, if it is immortal it does not need to propagate and such to conquer the universe? Maybe only because it is immortal it has such an arbitrary way to reproduce, it has all the time in the world.
By mixing its DNA with that of a host it would only result in diluting its strenghts because the hosts are imperfect. Like when you put the wrong fuel into the tank you destroy the engine.
I consider all the cross breadings that flooded the comic books and films, like the newborn from Alien: Resurrection, the gorilla alien, the flying xenomorph and culminating with the Predalien, as aberations.
The mutations we see, of Fifield, the worms, Holloway, neomorphs are due to the black goo, that was described as an organic radical form of AI. The connection between the black goo and the xenomorph is yet to be demonstrated.
I cannot admit that by mixing the DNA of xenomorphs with that of other species (it that's ever possible) will result in an evolved xenomorph, but the other species would take all the tolerable traits of the xenomorph and would live a short and miserable life , unless the subject is a woman named Ripley (that was partly touched in Alien: Resurrection).
Why does it have a human skull behind the carapace, it is bipedal and it has a tail? Why not? For the beauty of it, the evolutionary process decided these are the best atributes for holliwoodian success.
All above consideration refer to the biomechanical xenomorph, the Big Chap from Alien.
But if the xenomorph was created by David, well, we saw it in Alien Covenant...
"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"
I think the ONLY way to Truly Answer this is to examine what EXACTLY is the Xenomorph.
1) A Natural Organism, were the Natural Survival of the Species is about Procreation, it is what LIFE is all about.
2) A Intelligent Organism, that is capable of more than Primates are and so a Organism that is capable of forming a kind of Civilized Culture and Society where we then ask what is their AGENDA/GOAL.
3) A Bio-Weapon that has been Created/Engineered to perform such a TASK
4) A Creation/Experiment that has been Engineered to behave a specific way by its Unstable/Deranged Creator.
If it is Option 1 then it would be more logical for a Organism to have a Method of Producing as Many Eggs as Possible in the least Complicated/Time Consuming way as possible. More Eggs the more Chances of Survival, its why Many Organisms Produce more than ONE Egg/Fetus.
One way this would not need to apply would be Option 2 a Organism that is Intelligent and can Problem Solve and have a better suited way to Survival would NOT need as many Eggs/Offspring to ensure its Survival if it has the Means/Tools and Intelligence to Survive in a given Environment where it is the Apex Predator and it can use either its own Might, or Tools or its Intelligence to ensure a better Rate of Survival just as Humans do... then it would not require to be Producing Thousands of Eggs.
Unless..... its Agenda is to Dominate Worlds/Environments if this plays a Part of its Natural Agenda, then having a way to Procreate Faster and in Greater Numbers would be important. If this Agenda is something that is not Natural but something they Aspire to do.. then they would not Naturally Produce in Greater Numbers but they would look at ways to Evolve themselves to being able to do so.
Option 3 would fit the same as what i said above, anything designed as a Weapon would maybe be Engineered to Produce in Mass... But their is the RISK of things getting out of Control, if your Bio-Weapon can Procreate in MASS and then we have to Consider what is the END-GAME of this Weapons use? The Nuclear Weapon is the most Powerful Weapon that Mankind has... but if a Country wanted to TAKE-OVER another, then dropping say 200 Nukes would Destroy that Country... but the Radioactive Fall Out would mean this Country would have NO use to you, not for a Long Time and so a NUKE is only Good as a Pure Eradication Device... which the Xenomorph how it is portrayed in the Franchise would also come across as.
However... if they have Limited Life Span (RS alluded to in the past, he maybe changed his stance on that NOW) then if as in Starbeast and Alien... the Eggs can remain Dormant, then as long as you have a means to obtain those Eggs and store them without becoming infected then they would make a HANDY Re-usable Bio-Weapon (something GAVIN has mentioned a number of times).
Option 4 becomes pretty much open to what ever David has intended for them... this could also had applied before David was revealed as the Creator, so prior to that U-Turn, then those who Created the Xenomorph could have Engineered it to behave how it does.
One other thing about a BIO-WEAPON is that it also and maybe this should have been Option 5 but applies to Option 1 being used as a Option 3 maybe by use of Option 4 (which is what Alien Engineers alluded to)...
And that is that we could also look at the Option of it being something Natural, that is then Engineered to be used as a Bio-Weapon. If your FED up of Flies, then Engineering a Spider that has Wings would help to Reduce the Population of Flies. If someone Engineered ANTS to Grow to the size of a CAR and they began to start to Build a Handful of Colonies, then Soon they would pose a Threat to LIFE in the inhabited/effected area... Especially to LIFE that has no Advanced means of Defense...
Imagine the Trojan War, and the Greeks Instead Managed to Engineer/Mutate ANTS that were the size of HORSES and these set up Colonies in their Thousands outside the Gates of TROY once they Tunnel into the City and begin to take over that area as a new Colony then what defense would those people have? Looking at the Xenomorph it would be used for the same Reason as above by those who could obtain it as a Bio-Weapon.
so what my WHOLE POINT was is to suggest that the means and requirement of HOW the Xenomorph Procreates would depends on WHAT the Xenomorph is..
If we take it back to the STARBEAST then indeed it would maybe not NEED a Queen... or Produce in Thousands. Just as Mankind does not need to Produce as many Offspring as some other Mammals for Survival... But if we take the Xenomorph back to the STARBEAST idea and Origins... its method of Procreation is VERY FLAWED as it requires a HOST to create the Egg/Spore Stage and then HOST to Gestate the Starbeast.
A Colony of TWO Starbeasts would only be able to Procreate another 25 of their Kind if they only had access to 50 Organisms that are suitable as HOSTS this is FLAWED but i guess a Advanced Intelligent Race it could suffice....
If it was some Parasitic Organism, or some Organism where its role is purely Survival or a Engineered Weapon then the STARBEAST Procreation would prove to be a FLAW
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"And BigDave maybe it's time to have a talk with the xenomorph, "
I can see you are on the side of ALIEN, and not a fan of ALIENS as per how the Xenomorph had been expanded on in regards to its role and procreation. I see Gavin is a Fan of the Aliens changes.. its a case of each to their own.
I think from the comment "i quoted" you may be a fan of exploring the way to had taken the Xenomorph after ALIEN to something like its ROOTS which came from Starbeast. The Procreation Method of the STARBEAST and indeed what was also used in ALIEN DC is to a degree more UNIQUE than a Queen, more Disturbing too. The Life-Cycle of both are very similar... but then requirement to see Organisms Mutated into Eggs is more HORRIFIC than seeing a Giant Xenomorph Birthing Eggs.
Not as efficient.... but more disturbing and WHAT can be more disturbing than the ALIEN DC Xenomorph... maybe similar to the Reasons RS wanted to make the Xenomorph a Creation by our own AWOL Creation David.
He felt that showing that these Horrific Beast was created from the Tortured/Deluded/Demented Mind of one of our own Creations who felt Mistreated by his Creators yet is Superior and that allowing such a Creation Free-will/Emotions and then taking them along to meet our Makers who then are revealed to have wanted to Destroy us with a Bio-Weapon they created... and then seeing our Creation wish to Create for himself using that Bio-Weapon is a Great Hubris and a more Disturbing Reality/Horror.
How does this apply to the STARBEAST and Alien DC way of Procreating...? Because it shows a lot of thought, and agenda had been put into Davids creation... the REASONS for doing so are more Disturbing than the Actual Creation.
So while the ALIEN DC method of Procreation is MORE Horrific and Disturbing, this can be made more so by having the Organism as actually being INTELLIGENT and having a Ritual Society and revealing these intentions would maybe make the whole Egg Morph Ritual more Horrific/Disturbing.
Its one thing being Hunted down by a group of say Giant Wolves, or Ants... or a Outbreak of a Virus passed on by Insects or other Organisms... Its much more HORRIFIC being hunted down by Intelligent Species or say other HUMANS who are then going to Publicly Execute/Torture or Sacrifice you or capture you to deliberately infect you with a Virus etc.
So introducing a Agenda and Intelligence to the Xenomorph would indeed make its actions more than just Naturally Procreating... What is more Horrific...
*A Virus Outbreak that makes Humans into Mindless Zombies, where a City/Country has to try and escape these Mindless Zombies who are only intent on Eating/Biting and Humanity where they then infect more...
*A Group/Cult or Faction that invade a City/Country and take their occupants away to Outposts/Camps for Execution and Torture.
The 2nd one is more Horrific... the 1st one ONLY if it was the Creation as a Bio-Weapon by Option 2
So indeed maybe if we see the Xenomorph being revealed as becoming Intelligent it could work. But i think the Franchise has Progressed FAR beyond its STARBEAST roots in context to what the Xenomorph is as we went from a ENIGMA to a Organism that Naturally Survives by its Procreation, with the Origins OPEN... that is then hinted as a Bio-Weapon or USE as a Bio-Weapon. To now a Creation by a ROBOT that may be intended as its pursuit of being a Creator or as a Bio-Weapon or a combination.
The only WAY the Xenomorph (going by the Plot/Path we are not on) can become something more alike the STARBEAST has to be ONLY if David decides to Evolve it to become Intelligent and then it becomes Sentient and Rebellious as a HUBRIS... which means it follows the same path that had became of David.
Its WHY i think we could still potentially explore something more related to the STARBEAST via introducing another kind of Race/Species where the Xenomorph is just something created by the DNA of this distant and ancient Species. I also think IF we go this route then this STARBEAST has to have some Aesthetic of the Xenomorph but it also has to look QUITE different.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"I know David mentions a queen in Advent but I am pretty convinced it's a queen different from what we've seen so far."
Certainly to a degree, i think WHILE he may have understood the route Cameron had taken, as a Logical way to expand the Xenomorph (bare in mind not as many have seen the DC cut of Alien). It would likely not have been the route Ridley Scott would have gone HAD he worked on the ALIEN sequel. I think RS wanted to do something different with the Prequels, he had no real say on how things Evolved in the Franchise, but he had the chance to do things his way regarding the Xenomorph Origin/Purpose and to explore the Space Jockey Race. And so i dont think he would be taking us the ROUTE of Face Hugger + Daniels = Queen Xenomorph or that she Evolves into something very like the Queen Xenomorph.
We have to remember a number of things that are mentioned/implied could have MULTIPLE reasons. David needing to Perfect his QUEEN is not going to be him obtaining a Queen Egg Laying Xenomorph... because that has been done in the Franchise already.. Certainly not as far as giving us the actual Queen from Aliens... but who knows.. if this is the case it must be something FORCED on by FOX for the fans..
What we need to look at is WHAT is a Queen? which leads us to..
*A Female ruler of an independent state, the Wife of the Male ruler of a independent state.
*A Female with dominating/powerful attributes/personality
So it is a Female with some Power/Authority.
When we look at it in context to the Insect World, then a Queen Bee, Wasp, Ant or Termite is in essence the same, the Authority/Superior Figure in its Colony. She is the most Important Element of this Colony.
This Queen also is the one who Procreates the Species and is responsible for the Eggs from which these Insects are born. Which is another reason for her importance.
So in context to Davids Comment... he has yet to find a Perfect Way for him to Obtain/Produce his Xenomorph Eggs. This does not mean he needs a Female.... but it is certainly indicated that it was via Females that lead him to reach his Goal of his Xenomorphs... so Female Engineers and then Dr Shaw played a Large Role in Davids eventual Success. But what ever way David obtained those Eggs via a Females Reproductive Organs/Cells he has yet to Perfect a more Efficient way of doing so.
We also have to remember in Davids deranged Mind, he could have seen Dr Shaw as his Queen, if he wishes to Unleash his Creations to Rule the Galaxy he may see himself as their Creator and King, and so Dr Shaw was his unwilling Queen.... but you could be led to think he would have liked to have had her be a more willing Participant in his Creations... we have to ask IF Dr Shaw was ok with it, would he had needed to KILL her?
Maybe NOT if all he needed was her Egg Cells... and so i dont think his QUEEN would be something as simple as Face Hugger infects Female to Produce a Egg Laying Xenomorph, certainly not one much like the Camerons Queen.
"It is my belief that the Jordens in Aliens did not find the Egg Silo Kane discovered"
I think this is something they had been trying to suggest with Jon Spaights Alien Engineers as a way to cover the differences between the Xenomorph in ALIEN and ALIENS we have had RS mention and indeed Alien Engineers alluded to, that the Derelict/Juggernauts have Multiple Cargo Holds where Each houses a slightly different Variant of the Bio-Weapon/Xenomorph.
I will try and cover this a bit more latter.. but we have seen a lot of changes and contradictions with the make it up/change it as as we go along PATH they have taken, and depends on what Concepts/Drafts and Cuts of the movies we look at that can take us down a different interpretation.
I will right away JUMP to your point and post, and indeed RS had said that maybe Fifield would have eventually broken down like the Sacrificial Engineer and that Holloway would have gone through the same FATE... this could mean Holloway would have Evolved into a Fifield like Beast then broken down like the Sacrificial Engineer or he was just going to break down... If we look at the effects with the GOO and apply the other concepts, and then look at Jon Spaights Nano-Scarabs we have a CLEAR and simple way to interpret what is going on and the Mural.
But if we throw that out and take on board RS comments about what would have happened next to Fifield/Holloway, and look at the Engineers Dead Bodies..
Then we can come to that IMAGE you posted... and compare it to the below.
We see the Alternative Fifield which the CGI Scene had been based off, and we see a Holloway Prop showing more of those EYE-WORMS escaping from his Body.
If we look at this and the Image you posted GAVIN then what we can conclude from this, is the Pathogen/Mutagen infects a HOSTS DNA in different ways to HOW it comes into contact and Quantity but we see the End Result the HOST breaks down as its Cells are either Mutated into these Nano-Worms or the Pathogen is Nano-worms who need to consume a HOST DNA to Grow or Re-Produce.
It could conclude that the Goo would infect and KILL its victim but then replicate itself and escape from the remains of its victim.... but in some cases it also mutates their DNA and Evolves them into a Hybrid of sorts which eventually also succumbs to the Inevitable and just produces many of these Worm-Like Parasites.
What we have to ask however.... is.
*WHY does this have a different effect on some Organisms, such as to Produce the Hammerpedes? Or would they have eventually also just broken down to reproduce the Nano-Parasite? or due to some differences in Genetic Make of those LV-223 Worms was the Hammerpedes a Hybrid of the Parasitic Worms and Native Worms on LV-223?
*WHY did Dr Shaw produce the Trilobite Face Hugger, which i think maybe because the Nano-Parasite has infected a BASE CELL that is a Egg Cell and so we get a Hybrid. Is this a FREAK event? What becomes of the Dead Trilobite, does it decompose and become more Nano-Parasitic Worms.
WOULD a Deacon and Xenomorph end its Life-Cycle by the same kind of method, decompose/break down into those Parasitic Worm Organisms?
Ridley Scott did suggest the Dead Xenomorph would Regenerate? Does he mean that when it was KILLED it would grown back to a Xenomorph? Or does he mean ONCE the Pathogen/Virus/Parasitic Organism as performed a certain function, the resulting Organisms have a limited Life Span before they just break down to become the Parasitic Stage again... which can then Spawn New Life?
Looking at the evidence provided.... i think this is HIGHLY likely...
We then have to ASK how the Xenomorphs come into play, does only certain infected Organisms, end up in the way those IMAGES posted by myself and GAVIN and so any result that leads to the Trilobite/Deacon and Xenomorphs/Neomorphs then go on to Procreate and not REVERT back to some Parasitic Soup.
We then have to ask about the Sacrificial Scene... if we look at the IMAGE that GAVIN posted... which then makes sense to what they said regarding the Sacrificial Scene just seeds Xenomorph's well certainly Parasitic Worm-like Organisms.
But then HOW does the Creation of Humans come into play? do we assume the Sacrificial Scene is NOT how the Engineers Create Life, but only how they SPREAD the Parasitic Goo/Organisms.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"The connection between the black goo and the xenomorph is yet to be demonstrated"
This was something that was interesting and a little ambiguous and its what bugged a lot of people with Prometheus because it was not clear. Ridley Scott after Prometheus had given (off screen) the connection loosely, by suggesting the Xenomorph and Experiments on LV-223 are connected... he went further by saying something in the Cargo Hold of the Derelict has EVOLVED!
The inception of the Prequels began with the ideas that RS had put to Jon Spaights that eventually lead to Alien Engineers and in Alien Engineers it is not as ambiguous... what we have is these Creator Engineers, Genetic Gardeners of Space who use a Powerful Tool in the Nano-Scarabs to Consume/Dissemble the Genetic Building Blocks of a Organism they come into contact with, this TOOL (Scarabs) then obtain the DNA and traits of this Sacrificed Organism and then loaded with the DNA of the Sacrificial Organism, these Scarabs can then INJECT the Sacrificial Organisms DNA onto another Organism and this causes a Hybrid.... it further shows us a Primate is Bitten by one of these Scarabs that consumed a Engineers DNA and injected the Engineer DNA into the Primate that causes a Mutation... THIS is inferred to be the Missing Link between Primates and Humans... that Missing Link (Engineer DNA) is applied via the passing on of the Engineers DNA from the Scarab (Tool) that consumed a Engineer.
The next time we see those Scarabs are in URNS that Fifield knocks over, some of these Scarabs then end up BITING him and he Does-Not be consumed (like the Sacrificial Engineer) but instead he is Mutated like the Primate.. only with what appears to be XENOMORPH Traits. The Goo in Prometheus is basically the same as the Nano-Scarabs its only been changed a little... (in Prometheus).
Alien Engineers we are introduced to what appears to be some Organism that is growing in some Caves, we are latter introduced to a area where other Organisms (related) are stored in more Synthetic Containers. And then are shown that the Engineers Ships contain Engineered/Weaponized versions, but that there is not only ONE Version in the Cargo Hold (Xenomorph) but 7 others. While its not SPOON-FED the clues point to the Engineers using their Creation/Hybrid Tool on some Organism they discovered to then Engineer the Perfect Bio-Weapon (and Variants) from this Organism.
Prometheus has clues to the same, they are just very vague and can be open to other conclusions..
Alien Covenant shows us David uses the Black Goo to obtain traits from other Organisms, and Hybridize/Mix those Traits with the Neomorph/Deacon Organisms to obtain his Xenomorph....
How is this possible? Quite Straight Forwards when we consider what David witnessed with Dr Shaws Baby Fetus in Prometheus and then the Neomorphs on Planet 4 and then looking at the GOO as exactly how its indicated in Alien Engineers as far as the Nano-Scarabs.
Sadly this flies against what many may have wanted or pondered about prior to the Prequels.. The Xenomorph itself and its Origins and Purpose is something debated that had different conclusions and likes/dislikes by fans depending on which version they preferred.. it was back then a case of the Alien DC Egg Morph vs Camerons Queen for some fans it never mattered, for some fans they could try and see how BOTH could logically fit and connect.
Some may have wanted/wished to see the Xenomorph be portrayed more like the STARBEAST which the sequels to ALIEN seemed to steer away from.... The Mural in Prometheus gave those fans some HOPE that indeed it reveals the Xenomorph has a larger more Godlike/Advanced role ABOVE the Engineers and its Worshiped by them as a God/Superior being...
But there is another interpretation of the Mural and Prometheus that fits more when you consider what Alien Engineers was showing.. Murals are usually there to Worship or pay Honor to something deemed important. But we need to remember the Cruciform Pose is not a POSE of GOD.
Only in Terms of Jesus Christ is the Pose connected to Worship/God and this Pose is a Symbol NOT of GOD but of the SACRIFICE that was made for Mankind. The Sacrificial Engineer in Alien Engineers took a Cruciform Pose as he was being broken down/consumed by the Contents of the Sacrificial Cup (Scarabs). Ripley took the same Pose when she was Sacrificing herself to Prevent the Queen from being Birthed and Obtained by the Weyland-Yutani Company.
Its all a bit MUTE anyway as it all depends what route they was taking behind the scenes in the constant change their minds/make it up as we go along PLOT that we have been fed. None the Less still very interesting to Ponder the Different interpretations and ideas.
"Or if it was only a weapon why not remain an airborne virus and multiple in the host by the millions?
As it is presented it only makes sense if it was made by a sadistic A**-hole and the only one presented in the whole series is David in Covenant."
Indeed when we look at that, then we can see how much the Creation by David makes sense... or Creation by any other being for a Sadistic Purpose.
As i said before it makes more sense to use URNS of Black Goo than a Xenomorph as a Bio-Weapon. If the Xenomorph (or related) is a intended result of this Bio-Weapon, where they then go back and collect the EGGS where we have to ask WHY... then that makes sense for the Black Goo... again another look at it in a similar way is they visit a WORLD after it was Bombarded and saw the Eggs and then THOUGHT!! Thats Interesting... and then they take them for a look/study.
Any idea of Bouncing Eggs down on a World from the Skies makes little Sense.... But those responses i made are likely not applicable IF it is still kept that David is the Creator of the Xenomorph... well it kind of is because we have David come across the results of his Bombardment (Neomorphs) and then he thinks..... thats INTERESTING.
I think Fans can try and debate/wish the Space Jockey Race was maybe not the Engineers, and the Xenomorph is not a Creation of David.. But it appears this is the route we are going.
However... the Origins of the Black Goo/Sacrificial Goo and the Engineers Bio-Mechanical Technology is still something that could be explained as obtained from ANOTHER more ALIEN Race that is more connected to the HR Giger Aesthetic and Starbeast Organism were our Engineers or Ancestors to them are used as some Slave Race or have some Symbiotic Covenant with some Starbeast beings.
But who knows if we will ever explore anything like that and maybe the Bitter Pill to Swallow that is that Derelict Scene from ALIEN is the case of a SHIP that belongs to OUR Creators that is carrying the Xenomorph Eggs that are Created by OUR Creation.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
BigDave, you might be the best person to ask this: were there ever a clue given to us in the series of movies that humanoids(engineers, humans, predators, others(?)) and the beast (and its progenitors in all forms) are in fact related siblings, perhaps sharing a common ancestor at some point(perhaps some sort of bacteria type organism) diverged over time and evolved into two radically different species, where one specie has evolved to exterminate all other types of life forms having muscles and the other has evolved into what we have seen as engineers.
The two species couldn't be more different and are on two opposite sides of the spectrum: one is this being, who is seeding life by sacrificing his own and the other is taking other's lives at all costs(with no regrets or even second thoughts - those mfkers completely lack sympathy/empathy, like, supposedly androids in DADoES) perhaps to give life to its brethren. One is a complete opposite of the other. Good and bad. Sacrosanct and evil. Positive and negative.
Is this not yet another way of telling a story of struggle of good vs evil? Good gods vs bad gods? Good guys vs bad guys? But then again we as an audience are doomed to witness these sort of cliche stories, because such conflicts where polar opposites clash are the catchiest things to grab attention of lots of people.
What I like about Ridley is that he actually goes and reaches out to real experts in many fields and asks for the prevailing theories in the fields and incorporates them into his stories. This way he makes his movies realistic and grounded. Be it NASA when he was doing the Martian or be it AI experts, or sci-fi writers ala Dick, whom he no doubt consulted(or even adapted). His whole premise for AC can be understood in one intriguing idea : say that humans get to build an AI, what if it is emotional and what if humans let it get away(grant it freedom). Will it want to create? Will it want to destroy? Will it find religion worthy? Will it have compassion to its brethen ( David said that nobody will love Walter more than he does, yet, look what he did to Walter. Is this what David calls 'love'? What else does he have in mind?).
We get to see some answers to such questions, if Ridley is given his budget. Alas, it looks like all this, all his ingenuity all his creativity is utterly meaningless in the face of ... ( continue that talk of Peter Weyland) ... if Ridley is not given the money. It has to be said, in any case, it was a good ride while it lasted. Bravo!
Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?
The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...
This is a reply to your post made october 3rd, maybe it is a bit late but anyways.
Maybe that but it takes it closer to the story about creation, Gods and stuff and not the theme about people that get into situations that they are not prepared for and it also downplays the evil corporation kind of thing. Creation and that is interesting but I think that the evil corporation and that is more interesting in the context of the alien franchise.
What’s next? It also depends on how interesting it is and how relevant it is for the franchise as a whole.
“Once we reveal the Xenomorph is a Engineered Weapon... HOW MANY more times can we introduce Eggs, Face Huggers, Chest Busters and Xenomorphs? “
It could work but there is a difference if you focus on people that get into situations that they are not prepared for or if you focus on the themes of rebellion, creation and so on. It depends on how much attention that you give to each of them, but that is not to say that both can not co-exist in different portions in a movie. They can use the monsters in different ways for example keep them mostly in the shadows because what you don’t see is more scary that what you see, right? We have different Star Wars movies with things in common but they were also different so that is why they worked and they also had good characters so I think that is what they need to do in the franchise.
The SJ race is interesting but they have failed with it. They should be bigger scarier and have a closer connection to the Xeno. The focus should still be on people that get into situations that they are not prepared for but I think that they could combine that with the Engineers or some related lifeform. I would rather have the Xenos related to the Engineers than to David however.
“ but i guess the point you are making is that”
My point is probably that it should have been a spin-off and not related to the time-line because now they are about to do it like it would be Prometheus, Covenant, the next one and then Alien. My point is like it would be an alien movie that would have not been in the time line at all or not dependent on it.
“NEVER provided enough Answers for them, it further disappointed those fans.”
There are answers in Prometheus but you should not have to watch it ten times or what ever to get the answers. Some people can do that but I am not sure if even the majority can do that especially if they do not like the quality. I blame it on bad writing and/or execution of it.
“This was the connection they are trying to make, in the pursuit of Creating in your OWN image.”
Yeah, but that is not why I watch alien movies. The prequels are about things that I am not as interested in in the context of the alien universe as how interested I am in the theme of a group of people that are doing their jobs while their employer try to screw them over so they also get into a situation that they are not prepared for which is largely what Alien is about, if you ask me.
They could get the Engineer thing right about creation and warfare if they get the Engineers right and make them the creators of the Xeno, or if someone higher up in the hierarchy made them monsters or what ever, as long as David is not responsible for it because that sucks. The situation now is really bad if you ask me, but they can try to improve it so the next one will be good at least, it is like damage control because that is the situation that they put themselves in. My main problem with the prequels is the characters though and the focus on David.
The green crystal made no sense, I would have preferred if they would have had the cup instead because it connects to the sacrificial Engineer in the beginning.
The hall of heads was interesting so I would have liked to see more of that. Too bad that they seemed to rush through it, as far as I remember it.
If they have the Engineers in it in some way I hope that they will have a bigger role than David. To me they are a lot more interesting since AC kind of made me loose interest in him. Wherever David and the Covenant ends up, I hope that we will have less of David or else there is a risk that we will get another movie about a robot that thinks that he is God. Between the P4 Engineers and the LV-223 ones I prefer the LV-223's they look more spacey.
"Which David/AI fits in and he is also very interesting in the David Angle in this Context."
That is why he should not have anything to do with the writing or else we will probably get another bad android movie. I don't want another David-versus-the-rest kind of thing.
About what kind of worlds where they have been it could be interesting but keep it tied to a story about humans that get into situations that they are not well equipped at handling. This is the most important part to me story-wise because from that you can have well-written human characters, Xenos or variations of them and the Engineers but the story should be human-centered or else forget it. Don't get me wrong, the Engineers are interesting but the humans should be the main thing.
Six movies? With AC in mind he should be glad if he is allowed to do one because it wasn't very good and I think that many lost interest after they saw AC and because of that do not have as lot of hope left in the franchise at least that is how I kind of reacted when thinking about Alien Covenant.
The Carlos Neruda version is my favorite among the versions of the Engineers. I am not too impressed with versions A and B since they look too much like humans. C looks good, it reminds me of some sort of monster that I could imagine that they could have in a Lord of the Rings kind of movie.
"I think a lot of Fans were disapointed the Planet 4 Engineers just seemed to not look as Inspiring as the Prometheus ones, was this only in PART due to the Technological Level and thus a LACK of HR Giger Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic to their City and Clothing?"
To me it was both, the Prometheus one looked more alien and I also had imagined more alien looking planet. Me to me Planet 4 version looked like peasants that lived in stone-huts, not impressed at all. Both the looks of the Engineers and the environment were disappointing so I think that you are right about both.
"So maybe due to the reaction Fans had to those Planet 4 Folk, maybe its the Prometheus types that would be re-introduce"
More like how they were in Prometheus is what I would like to see but the humans should be the main focus because it is those that we as an audience mainly (I think) identify with. At least I do not see myself in David or the Engineers and/or paper-thin characters.
"Or is there SCOPE to introduce us to another related Race, who are Taller, thus would make the Space Jockey Size Anomaly less of a Concern?"
If they do it right then yeah but with possibly just one movie left human characters are number one.
Finally I would like to mention something about the thing of people that get into situations that they are not prepared for. Maybe they could get that right and still have the Engineers in it in some way but have it closer to the Weyland corporation and develop the Engineers and have better human characters. For example the colonization in AC could have been an excuse for the company to get the monsters that they knew of in some way, or the goo in other words the company sold it as a colonization thing but they wanted the monsters or goo it is just that they didn’t say that. I like the theme of a corporation that wants to reach its goal and that doesn’t avoid any means to reach that goal. Unfortunately AC turned into a movie hugely about a mad robot no matter what the themes were because that is how it came off on screen.
Do not remove everything after Alien as canon, both Alien 3 and Aliens are waaay better than Prometheus and Alien Covenant. There is no competition between them because the prequels would loose with 1 point and 15 to the originals, it is that big of a difference.
In the Movies its a little difficult to say, it depends what points i try and answer regarding your post... The Principle shown by the Prequels in the Introduction of our Engineers are they are a Ancient Advanced Humanoid Race who go around Seeding/Evolving life on MANY worlds. And this opens up a Broad/Bold Plot that Mankind are NOT the only Intelligent Humanoid life that has come from the Seeding/Experiments carried out by the Engineers.
Could this be they created the Predators? in the AVP Universe this could be possible.. but also its indicated that these Engineers are not Gods... and hinted at us to ponder as Dr Shaw asked... Who made them? and so it is open for debate regarding the possibility of other Intelligent Life that is NOT created by the Engineers but its also open to explore that there is more Layers to Creation above our Engineers.
Ridley Scott made a comment prior to the announcement that work on a Prometheus sequel is underway.. he proposed the statement "if the Engineers are the Forerunners to Mankind, then What/Who made it possible for Worlds to be able to Support life in the First Place... where is the BIG GUY"
He also at this time mentioned about IF the Big Bang was a Accident and even said that Stephen Hawkings thought it may not have been. He has also in other comments over the years alluded to Creation/Life not being a Accident but potentially have a Engineered/Programed Purpose... that is that it was PLANNED and that there was something behind Creation even at its BASE level.... now he is Vague in his assertions and with Prometheus and the ideas he is giving us something to think about... where he is treading the LINE between Creationism by some Divine Being/Purpose and the Big Bang and Evolution offering us that behind the Big Bang and Evolution is some kind of Intelligent Decision in this Process.
We dont know how Deep the Rabbit Hole that RS had planned, it seems its certainly Deeper than our Engineers/Elders being the Top of the Chain of Creation and so the Engineers could belong to ONE Branch of Creation, while say the Predators could have their Origins by a different Branch of Creators but at some-point each LEVEL back we arrive at maybe ONE Source to ALL Creation.
Regarding the Factions of Good vs Evil then this is always something that crops up in many Mythos and Religion and in LIFE it is something with a whole lot of ways it can be interpreted and explained... so its hard to see how this fits within the Franchise.
It is loosely hinted that we had a ACT by the Engineers that was LIFE giving, but then another ACT that was DESTRUCTION (Bio-Weapons) but then its also indicated this Destruction is just part of the Beginnings or Process to Re-Create New Life or Start Again.
Regarding the Evil intent and Good... its open to debate, i am thinking that RS is setting up a Fundamental Story where again the LINE between Good/Evil is Blurred and what may seem Evil to some Species or in Regards to them is consider for the Good in others.
KNOWLEDGE and Self Aware, Independent Thought, and becoming Sentient and then not agreeing with your intended Purpose, Reasons for Creation and Rules you are to LIVE by that causes Rebellion is a THEME that RS seems to be following that attributes to EVIL.
We are all Born Innocent... most Life only lives by its Natural Reaction to Procreate and Survive. There is NO Evil or Malice only Nature. A Machine is but just a group of circuits, wires other synthetic construction. Without a Power Source it is Innocent and only by the Purpose it is created and those who operate Machines, or Program it does a Machine become in anyway Evil.
So the THEME of Good and Evil, i feel in context to what RS is trying to show in the Franchise comes from KNOWLEDGE, information, experiences and emotion. It is maybe like asking the Question... If Jack the Ripper was brought up in the same Family/Environment as say Gandhi would he had been as EVIL?
So its maybe how a being is treated/brought up, what role they are given and how they feel about this that IMPACT how Good/Evil a being could be... and with David we are alluded to that IF he was not granted such Emotions and Free-will he would have NO Choice in the kind of being he would become and he would not be impacted by his Pride, or how he feels about his Environment or Creators as a Machine has NO Feelings.... its only via the KNOWLEDGE and FREE-WILL that could lead to a being becoming either GOOD or EVIL instead of just Neutral/Innocent.
The other routes to EVIL are by Power/Control and also Survival.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"They can use the monsters in different ways for example keep them mostly in the shadows because what you don’t see is more scary that what you see, right?"
Indeed something that is over-shown can loose its Fear Factor and we have seen the Xenomorph for the most part has been relegated to a Bio-Weapon or for some a Organism that relies on the Basic Need to Survive which some see that the process it does this can be used as a Bio-Weapon.. RS said it right when he said there is only so much Snarling and Chest Busting you can do. So the Xenomorph's role has to be downplayed and used sparingly.
On another Topic i mentioned the Walking Dead... Zombies are Scary, but you need to connect with the Human Characters for their impact to be more Terrifying, but even with how the Walking Dead did this... there was only so much you could do with Humans trying to escape being Attacked by Zombies... before it gets Stale and the Zombies are NOT Scary.
Zombies are somewhat Mindless, there purpose is to FEED on the Flesh of the Living, thus passing on the Zombie Virus, they have NO Intelligent Agenda, they rely on Natural Instincts they are not clouded by Remorse or other Emotions and the XENOMORPH has been portrayed as similar... while it is more Intelligent than a Zombie, the Xenomorph follows a Basic Natural Instinct to Survive and Procreate. There is NO Intelligent Malice to them.
so eventually this would get Boring and NOT scary, what is Scary is the AGENDA of those who have Independent Thought and Emotions who have then Created the Horrific Bio-Weapon, or intended to USE this Bio-Weapon to what ever Agenda they have... in the Walking Dead its the THREAT of Mankind vs Mankind and to what end they would go for Domination and Survival that has the biggest impact. Sometimes the Zombies are used by Humans to achieve Personnel Ends to their own Survival.
so sorry for this being LONG WINDED... but indeed without Good Characters and Story that revolves around the Evil of some Characters, just throwing Xenomorphs on Screen over and over will just not be Scary and Dilute the Xenomorph to nothing more than similar to a Space Zombie/Bug. REVEALING the Xenomorph to be a actual Intelligent Organism with its own Agenda and Emotions may WORK but i think that SHIP has sailed a long time ago, and trying to make the Xenomorph more like the STARBEAST may no longer work.
Your bringing up of STAR WARS is also a Good Point... i feel the Alien Franchise suffers the same as the Star Wars will once certain things are changed...
A Star Wars movie that does-not have Storm Troopers and related Empire/New Order and does-not have Jedi and Sith, would be something that Fanboys would just not accept... it would be a case of WHERE are the Storm Troopers and Jedi/Sith.
Prometheus suffered similar because it just did-not have any Xenomorph related Organisms... Alien Covenant showed that Re-introducing them does not Garuntee a Good movie that pleases fans either... the Story/Characters are partially to blame for BOTH... but its also how Prometheus DID-NOT give Answers and Did-Not have any Xenomorph related Scenes well NOT ENOUGH... and then Alien Covenant... DID-NOT use the Xenomorph and Related as well enough, they was just a Side Plot to the Plot about Davids Arc and his role in the Creation of the Xenomorph which really BUGGED (pun intended) a lot of ALIEN Fans as this is NOT the Origins/Answers they wanted and many felt the Franchise was being too much about AI and David, at the expense of Human Characters, Xenomorph and Engineers...
But back to the Star Wars point... i think any Movie or Spin off has to have those things like Empire/New Order the Jedi/Sith but they have to be handled in a Clever and Sometimes NOT overdone way.... and i think any ALIEN movie or Spin Off will eventually at times have to introduce the Xenomorph or Related otherwise many fans will just not associate it with the ALIEN Franchise.
"My point is probably that it should have been a spin-off and not related to the time-line"
In context to the Prequels.... that was the idea... to make it something to explore something MORE than Xenomorphs and to STEER away from Alien.... but those in Power Felt actually the Backlash to Prometheus was because the Prequels should have been about the Xenomorph Origins and what a mess in a way that ended up.
"There are answers in Prometheus but you should not have to watch it ten times or what ever to get the answers."
That is the NAIL on the Head..... a Prometheus that explained a little more that gave some Xenomorph like Monsters attacking Humans, that gave more clues... would have allowed them to then SHUT the Door to ALIEN and move on with a Sequel that would not cover ALIEN the Xenomorph or anything about the Greed of the Company...
But the Risk then is even that may NOT be enough for some fans who would wanted MORE Spoon Fed Xenomorph Origins and the Space Jockey Event... a Prometheus that had more Xenomorpy feel to it, that then would MOVE on to something else would leave some Fans thinking... HANG-ON you dangle this Xenomorph Carrot and now your going to leave it alone... and they would expect a sequel to bring in EVEN MORE Xenomorphs etc.
"About what kind of worlds where they have been it could be interesting but keep it tied to a story about humans that get into situations that they are not well equipped at handling"
This poses a MASSIVE Problem..... how do they introduce Engineers back, and NOT conflict the Franchise, because there was NO Engineers in the Franchise, and so introducing Engineers back into the story they would have to be KEPT AWAY from Earth, and would have to have a Good Reason to then DISAPPEAR to the Far Side of the Galaxy and NOT interact with Mankind again during the Time Period of ALIEN onward's
But you cant have a Movie about the Engineers that does-not have Humans in it, because it wont sit well with some and also having None-Human Races is maybe something the Human Viewer would not be able to CONNECT with.
Having a Movie set Thousands of Years ago... where the ENGINEERS interact with Ancient Mankind, may be something that again would not settle with some fans. And then some fans are going to want to see more of the LV-223 Types and Xenomorph like Organisms introduced and its HOW would this NOT contradict our Ancient Past.
In HINDSIGHT... they should have Taken David and Dr Shaw to a WORLD Far Far away.... maybe they arrive at a Time-Line that is set Hundreds of Years after ALIEN.
*Do we assume the Engineers only Seeded Earth?
*Do we assume Mankind is the only Humanoid Race they Created?
*Does their Home-world have to be so close.. especially when their Star-Maps/Navigation has other GALAXIES.
So David and Dr Shaw could have GONE to a Place Many Many Thousands of Light Years away or even to ANOTHER Galaxy and this would NEVER conflict with the Alien Franchise.
What about Human Characters?
What if Earth is NOT the only place where Humans had been seeded, what IF the Engineers had taken Humans from Earth and then took them to other Worlds and Galaxies? If you was the Engineers would you DESTROY Mankind? or would you do what NOAH had done, and go and take a number of Humans who are deemed Worthy and take them to a New Place to START-AGAIN.
The Problem here is Language... do we assume they SPEAK English? a way around would be that David can Talk to the Engineers and Humans and we get Sub-Titles and they find a way to Imprint the Language into Dr Shaws Brain.
We then get ENGLISH for the benefit of our viewers (or other Languages to countries movie is shown in).
How do these Humans React to seeing another Human, what Questions would they have about Dr Shaw, and David, what Questions would they have for the Engineers about HOW and WHERE other Humans have come from. What happens when Dr Shaw is able to talk about Earth Culture, Religion, and what SHE knows about the Engineers...
What do these Humans do when they discover who David is?
How would the Engineers React to this... would they then have concerns that Dr Shaw and David could potentially corrupt their Human Colony... would it reveal to those Humans that the Engineers have been hiding the Truth about their Origins (Earth) so this would leave some INTERESTING things... some interesting THEMES and things that may Crop Up in Ridley Scotts "Raised by Wolves" only where Synthetic Care-takers are replaced by Engineers.
Then it would come down to David and what if he feels Threatened... or Dr Shaw and then maybe we could see at some point the BLACK-GOO play a Role in Unleashing Hell, be it by David, by Dr Shaw, by a Engineer or by accident by one of the Curious Humans..
THIS ^^^ is in part where i was taking David and Dr Shaw... in my Prometheus 3 idea... which i abandoned in 2014.
Regarding the whole David and AI and Arc.. i see how this fits, and its not merely a case of saying we have Biological Life that has a Spirit/Soul and we have a TIN-CAN Robot that does not.. But this has been covered before and i can leave for another Reply.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I agree that the Xeno has been sort of over-done, but I wouldn’t mind some other kind of monsters that the Engineers have done. With the love for science that the Engineers seem to have I guess that there are many possibilities for that. Yeah in some way I agree that the Xeno has been used maybe too many times so I would not dislike to see something new. Maybe there could be other monsters (non-Xeno) that the Engineers have found and developed. The focus should be more on the Engineers I think. As far as how much it is used it wasn’t seen that much in Alien and that worked (alright it was the first movie but you see what I mean).
Sure both Zombies and various monsters can get boring but it depends on how you do it. What is scary about that is that it is alien and not connected to humans, that is what makes it work (among other things) if you ask me.
“so eventually this would get Boring and NOT scary, what is Scary is the AGENDA of those who have Independent Thought and Emotions who have then Created the Horrific Bio-Weapon, or intended to USE this Bio-Weapon to what ever Agenda they have... “
If that is connected to David then I can see your point but there is no balance and the whole thing is about the robot and that gets boring. Sure a thinking robot and its agenda can be scary but it will not work if it is only about it and that is what the prequels have turned into (movies about a crazy robot).
“REVEALING the Xenomorph to be a actual Intelligent Organism with its own Agenda and Emotions may WORK but i think that SHIP has sailed a long time ago, and trying to make the Xenomorph more like the STARBEAST may no longer work. “
Maybe, but I would rather have it like that than it being connected to a weird robot. I would rather have it like that than how it is now because what it is now has made the franchise worse if you ask me. Looking back they should have ended after Alien 3.
The problem with Prometheus was mainly bad characters (most of them). I think that the less Xeno approach was a lesser problem even though the monsters could have been better. Honestly I think that the new monsters were interesting even though I did not like the Zombie Fifield (I would rather have had the Xeno version since it looked scarier and was faster).
Yup putting the Xeno in the background and to focus on David was a mistake. I did not mind the less Xeno thing but more David was what I had a problem with. Alien Covenant was better before it became all about David. That movie is not totally rotten but it is in general a disappointment. What is kind of sad is that it might be the last alien movie and that it was the way it was quality wise.
Indeed more Xenos do not mean a good movie it depends on how they are used and if they get the human characters right. I think that Prometheus was too vague in places so they should have worked on getting more clues to things. Yup AC became all about David at least in the second part so that is where it crashed to me at least. Paper thin human characters + a mad robot makes an underwhelming movie.
“this is NOT the Origins/Answers they wanted and many felt the Franchise was being too much about AI and David, at the expense of Human Characters, Xenomorph and Engineers... “
That is how I feel about it, I can imagine many things that they could have had improved. I would like to see a movie that would have had:
• Better human characters
• Less David/robots
• More engineers
• Have the monsters being tighter connected to the Engineers and their things with the black goo
I can figure out other ways that they could have went that I would have preferred a lot more than what we got. Damn, this is just so disappointing.
“and then Alien Covenant... DID-NOT use the Xenomorph and Related as well enough...”
Yeah I can give an example. Before they meet David there is a monster in that field that kills an X amount of people. To me that was like “well let’s throw the monster in there before we get to David who I really want the story to be about”. That was an example of how they misused the monster because Scott or who ever did not care that much about it. Ridley seemed to be more interested in a mad robot on crack. By the way, it did not help that we did not get any connection what so ever to those that got killed. I can honestly say that I did not even remember the names of any of them. When you do not have any understanding or connection with a character like that then you do not feel anything whenthey get killed. For example in Aliens we get some connection to the marines so we (at least I) feel something when they die but Covenant failed with that. Vasques is my favorite character in Aliens by the way, no competition and that has been the case for a long time.
More clues in Prometheus would have been good because the ideas are not bad (Engineers, life, the universe) but the execution mostly was. The movie is alright (not great but not a flush it down the toilet either) but it could have been so much better.
I think that they could have covered more about the company because there are still things that could be developed I think. Sure things can be overdone but at least we know less about that then what we know about the Xeno or Ripley. By the way the Weyland thing and the greedy company angle could have been explored better in Prometheus which is not to say that it should have been the whole story because I like the story about the Engineers.
“HANG-ON you dangle this Xenomorph Carrot and now your going to leave it alone... and they would expect a sequel to bring in EVEN MORE Xenomorphs etc.”
Yup I can see that some would be like that but I would like to keep some mystery into it. Everything do not need to be explained.
“But you cant have a Movie about the Engineers that does-not have Humans in it.”
I agree, I want to see more of the Engineers and have better human characters. I would much rather have it about that than about David, I don’t really care about him.
I will say forgive me to start... as have had a bit too much of the Alcohol at the moment ;)
I think first we need to look at the Xenomorph or what ever we want to throw at the Humans because its the Human Perspective that will bring it home to the viewers.
A Lion that runs on the loose and kills people may not make a Horrific Movie, especially of we have 2-3 movies based on Lions running AMOK.. even 3X Larger Ones...
Because eventually its just acting by its Natural Instinct it does not THINK about what to do next, who do i kill, why should i not kill this person... But introducing a Intelligent Element that unleashes the Beast or Creates a 3X Larger one is the MUCH more Horrifying part of a Story.
With the Xenomorph it became more about WHO/WHY would someone create such a Organism or use such a Organism rather than how the Xenomorph looks at LIFE and what it is doing. Prometheus attempted to hint at it being created/used against the Engineers Unruly Creations... and Alien Convenient decided that the Arc that David created it was more Horrifying which it is in ONE hand but by the other Aesthetically it takes it away from being so ALIEN and HR Giger to being more connected to Mankind and our $£%^$ Ups basically.
i think in the state i am i cant do a reply justice ;)
But in a Nutshell the more Horror will come from NOT anything that is acting Natural but by something that has Intelligence and Thought be that the Creature in Question of those who Create or attempt to use the Creature for their own gain. A Chimpanzee is not going to go and KILL someone because they have the latest Fashion Trend they act by a more Natural Instinct rather than Plotting World Domination and throwing each other under the BUS and the way the Planet of the Apes worked both in the OLD and NEW Franchise shows these Apes in a more sinister role due to the Evolved Intelligence they have which grants them more Free-will and Emotions.
There is only so many times a Beast who is acting on Natural Instinct can be introduced before it becomes STALE even if they get the Jeopardy of the Humans Right.
It is the reveal of those who TRY to use or CREATED such a Beast that makes for the more Sinister Plot... unless said Beast is revealed to be Intelligent itself. But a Creature that only goes around to Kill and Procreate would not fit such a Intelligent Organism.
I will attempt a better reply when i can THINK better lol
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think the Characters was a Problem... With ALIEN it was a small cast so you could make the connection with every Character. In Aliens there was only a handful of Main Characters but there seemed to be more depth/connection with the secondary Characters than there was the Majority of Characters in Alien Covenant. The Characters that looked like they was supposed to be the MAIN ones are David, Daniels, Tennessee and Oram and Finally Walter. The Human Characters thus Daniels, Tennessee and Oram as the MAIN Characters... yet Oram and Lope seemed more interesting/depth to them and what their purpose was as opposed to the Survivors in Daniels and Tennessee.
I know fans are disappointed with David and his role and being the Creator... but it follows the THEME of Prometheus which was not intended to be about the Xenomorph Origin. That is Creation, and Evolution and pursuit of Perfection.. David is but a amateur in his Biological Engineering Pursuit... the Engineers have been doing it for Millions of Years.. IF the Mural in Prometheus was the Engineers dedicating it to something they had Engineered that they had a lot of admiration/worship for, they would maybe be VERY interested in Davids attempt, and i feel the way to conclude has to be to show the Engineers or related Race, take Davids Creation and Upgrade it to the 1979 Xenomorph. Thus relegating David to playing the Middle Man and the Engineers maybe as those who Started its Evolutionary Path (Black Goo) and then Ended it with the Derelict Eggs.
When we are talking about the Company... we have to consider WHY would the Company wish to Pursue the Xenomorph at a Great Folly over and over, they seemed obsessed with the Organism.... yet WHY not go for the Black Goo and Engineers Technology instead?
Then it all went QUIET until a different company then wished to pursue the same AGENDA and while it may-not be to everyone's Cup of Tea a reveal about the company is being RUN behind the Scenes by AI would maybe explain WHY the Pursuit of the Xenomorph at the Folly to Human Life, if the AI wish to obtain a Creation of one of the FIRST of their own kind. The Greedy Company who have not a care for the LIVES of those they throw under the BUS in order to obtain the Specimen is a Sinister/Thriller Element to the PLOT. But you can see RS point of view in exploring that by Hubris of Creating Advanced AI we have unbeknown to us allowed the WOLVES (AI) in Sheep's Clothing to lie among the LAMBS (Mankind) the Horror and Hubris that IF we had NOT played God then we would never be pursuing or even saw the Creation of such a Horrific Monster. I feel this is where they could have been heading.... even though its not to everyone's tastes.
IF we look back at ALIEN and before David Giler and Walter Hill had introduced the Secret Android Plot, then how would ALIEN had worked with a Human instead? I think many would agree the addition/revelation that there was a Secret Hidden Android on-board who was ORDERED to obtain the Xenomorph at the cost of all the Expendable Crew was one of the best TWISTS with the Movie, if you looked at it as a Real Event then what a Sinister Revelation that would have been if you was one of the CREW.
But the AI theme is not to everyone's Taste... but it is intended to be a extension of Creation and the Hubris that Sub-Creating can bring and RS had said that a AI does not have to be a Robot... he said that Replicants are AI too.
AI is thus a Artificially Created Intelligent Creation, if Scientist had been playing God and Mixed Human DNA with that of a Ape to create a Hybrid and they Successfully achieved such a thing and then began experiments to Evolve its Brain and then TEACH it stuff.... then this Ape/Human would be a kind of AI because it is not a NATURAL Creation. A Hubris of doing such a thing could lead to a Scenario like the PLANET OF THE APES movies.
Prometheus and RS is getting us to look at Creation as not being Magically Created by a Magical Being and then we are Loved/Cherished by OUR Creator and Given a Eternal Soul and Spirit and thus Eternal Life by our Creator.
And also that we are not the Result of a Cosmic Explosion and a Series of Events of Evolution from basic Organisms to Humans.
He is pushing us to ponder what is Creation, what constitutes a Soul and Immortality. And giving us a alternative explanation that sits between the Creationism/Darwinism but then to look at the Reasons for Creation and Reasons for maybe not Pursuing Creation.
But as interesting as this is to SOME... it does relegate the Xenomorph Role to something lesser, which was purely a Bio-Weapon the Engineers Created/Used... to now something that OUR creation has attempted to Create for on one hand a similar reason but also a more Deeper Reason behind WHY he had... IF we had not gone the route of David as the Creator we would likely had just seen the Xenomorph as something a Group of Engineers Created for the Sole Purpose to KILL and nothing more.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"Anyone this dudes video analysis of AC??"
I could but depends what elements to comment on, there is a lot they are unsure about that i have explanations for. But this could get into a very large reply and go off topic from the Engineers...
I will comment about the ENGINEERS in context to that video. (ironically its not a everything explained video)
They do make mention of the DIFFERENCE between our Planet 4 Engineers and Prometheus ones, suggesting that those Planet 4 ones look more HUMAN which is a accurate assumption, they then suggest the LV-223 Engineers are maybe a Genetically Enhanced Version, and again thats a Logical Statement.... HOWEVER... the Genetically Enhanced for Military Purposes MAY-NOT be accurate as there are Counter-Arguments against this Military Purpose that i will leave for another time.
But certainly our Engineers in Prometheus could look Genetically Upgraded, the interesting CLUE to all of this comes from RS who claims those Engineers in ALIEN COVENANT are the ORIGINALS we also have to pay attention to the KEY/MAIN themes of Prometheus which a number OVERLOOK in search of HOW it all connects to ALIEN
The Theme is about Creation, Evolution, Pursuit of Perfection, the Hubris of Sub-Creating especially if you create a Superior being than can become Sentient. We need to look beyond the Black Goo and Xenomorph, but we can see with them how they FIT... but the LARGER implied theme has always been these Engineers are Gardeners of Space... it depends how we interpret this constant comment by RS but if we look at the context of HOW these Engineers are linked to our Ancient Culture/Mythos and Religion and HOW their Home-world relates to PARADISE it really draws us down a Specific Route as far as SPACE GARDENERS.
Ridley Scott had mentioned the NEXT movie would be more about AI, but he also went on to say David and Walter are AI but also the Replicants in Blade Runner are AI... and in this he is trying to suggest we need to look BEYOND AI as being Mechanical as RS is getting us to consider that a AI does not have to be Wires/Circuits so bearing this in mind it could be a INDICATION that the Prometheus Engineers are maybe some-kind of AI to those Engineers on Planet 4, they could be to those Engineers as Replicants are to Mankind. IF it is not this connection, then those Prometheus Engineers have to fit in with the THEME as being as a group who have taken to Genetic Manipulation and attempts to Perfect themselves at a Great Hubris. a Hubris they may have realized was not worth the Pursuit of Perfection and maybe shunned those ways to Perfect themselves.
Thats in part the Planet 4/LV-223 Engineers covered.
Now i turn to the ELDERS... this scene was removed by RS because he DID-NOT want to meet GOD in the first movie, he also said the beings Dr Shaw would meet would NOT be Gods... this IMPLIES our Prometheus Engineers are at a lower level than the beings David and Dr Shaw would discover on Planet 4, which implies the Prometheus Engineer Replicants connection.
The ELDERS being removed means we cant assume those beings who was on the TEAR-DROP ship will appear as those ELDERS did... as the occupants of that ship were NEVER revealed apart from Deleted Scene, we cant assume they are Humanoid of Connected to the Engineers.
The HALL OF HEADS does show beings similar to those Deleted Scene Elder Engineers... and RS had mentioned these beings are the Wise-Men (Ancient of their kind) the Apostles (keepers/teachers of the Ritual Ways) and Superior Beings (but Superior to who? Those Planet 4 Engineers the LV-223 or just Humanity?).
What is implied is these Hall of Heads (more Carvings of their kind in the Mountains) are the Hierarchy of those Planet 4 Engineers the Founders of their Species, Culture and Ways.
The guy in that Video makes a Good Observation that we DONT see the TEAR DROP ship... If we look at the City/Plaza in Alien Covenant, and NOT via the Concept work then the Hanger looks Large enough for a Juggernaught and the deleted scene shows more than ONE Juggernaught is already located in the HANGER but from this vantage it seems the Hanger is only Large enough for ONE at a time for those Ships to come/go and they must line up via a Rotating Platform... this Hanger is also NOT big enough for our DOCKING SHIP
We have to ASSUME maybe the TEAR DROP ships too...
It appears this City is the ONLY one location on Planet 4 for these beings with ONE Hanger. This fits more with what is Paradise in context to the Garden of Eden (cover another time)
So what we can conclude from this is that MAYBE the TEARDROP ships are NOT from Planet 4 and the Engineer in Prometheus claims he was not from LV-223 but from Paradise if we assume this to be Planet 4 then it indicates his Origins are from this Place... just as David's are from Earth. This place is also were our Planet 4 Engineers Originate from.
We know while these beings are connected to our Creation, its indicated the Planet 4 and LV-223 Engineers are NOT the Top of the Hierarchy
This means it leaves ROOM for those Hall of Heads Engineers to Originate from another Place and NOT Planet 4 or even the Occupants of the TEARDROP ships to NOT Originate from Planet 4
If Planet 4 is connected to Paradise, then in context to the Biblical Account here is what Paradise was..
*Paradise is NOT were GOD (Gods) come from or inhabit
*Paradise is NOT were the ANGELS (lower creation of God) come from or inhabit
*Paradise is THE Location where the Garden of Eden is located (Cradle of Creation), a Garden/Place Enclosed off from the rest of Paradise where Mankind (Origins) were created and watched over.
*Paradise (Garden of Eden) IS watched over by the Cherubim Class of ANGELS
If we look at Planet 4 in this context it maybe allows us to have some insight onto the role of the different Engineers. And thus this PLACE being the Location of Humanoid Origins as in context to the Planet 4 Engineers and how they connect to us.
Meaning we HAVE YET to see the World that their Creators/Hierarchy have come from.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I saw this the other week. Winters Dream 2307 (Winter Soilder)
Seemed to use some ideas from the Alien/Prometheus and Blade Runner Franchises...
Plot is that in the year 2307 the Earth has became VERY COLD that Mankind has to Live Underground, but they Create a Artificial Humanoids to Carry out Tasks, These Humanoids (who look like our Prometheus Engineers) become Sentient, Rebel and are then targeted to be Destroyed by their Creators (Humans) but some of these Humanoids Escape. so a Task Force is used to HUNT them down.
Why is it relevant?
These beings are like the Prometheus Engineers, they have White Skin are Psychically Superior and have Black Blood. The movie uses some of the Philosophy of Prometheus, and indeed from Alien Covenant to a degree (yet THIS movie was out in 2016) there are parts that discus the SOUL and how these beings HAVE no Soul, like how David does-not... but then its shown actually they do have a Soul, depending on what is a SOUL. (if its not the Spiritual One that goes off to Heaven)
It touched upon a Fear of what happens when these Created Humanoids could Procreate, and this worry becomes a Reality which is in part WHY the Humans then Order the Destruction of these Beings who just want to live among us (very Blade Runner).
I am not saying its a Good Movie, some interesting things but its NOT well executed ;)
But in Context to this TOPIC.... i think we could ponder if the PLOT of this Movie (Winters Dream 2307) could FIT with the Prometheus Engineers Creation/Relation to maybe the Planet 4 beings?
could the Prometheus Engineers had been the WOLF?
I certainly are drawn to them being either a Engineered Creation by those Planet 4 Engineers (or their Creators) like say David and Replicants are to Mankind...
Or those Prometheus Engineers are a Faction of Planet 4 Engineers who took to Enhancing themselves without the Consent of the Hierarchy.
I am very Drawn to the Prometheus Engineers being more connected to David, as far as Creations meant to Serve. Or they used the Creation Secrets to Enhance themselves to CHEAT Death and Upgrade themselves.
Oh that Movie has the Lead Bounty Hunter with the Name Bishop! And the Leader of the Rogue Humanoids is called ASH-393 who comes across quite a bit like David.
Can see where it took some influences from ;)
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I'm pretty sure rebellion has been in movies ever since. In Terminator (1984), humans created Skynet, it turned against humanity and created an army of
In another 90's cartoon, I forgot its name but in it, humans created a genetically enhanced version of themselves and used them as slaves on other planets. Those humanoids rebelled against humans and soon took over the entire Earth.
In Blade Runner, humans created an enhanced version of themselves called replicants and used them off-world, and throughout the series, replicants rebelled against
Similar thing in Matrix (1999) and how it all started, the war between humans and machines (it was explained in Animatrix 2003 "The second renaissance" parts 1 and 2). There's another film Automata (2014) but I don't feel the need to talk about it.
As far as Engineers creating the pathogen and then wanting to use it as a weapon, writers and Ridley stated engineers didn't originally create it.
I'd like to mention one underrated horror film from 2017 called Trench 11. In it, during the final days of WW1, a group of soldiers was sent to investigate an abandoned German facility deep underneath the ground. There they discovered Germans were experimenting with some kind of parasitic worm that produces itself inside the host's body, causing the infected host in the process to become extremely hostile and attack others by infecting them. Those things got out of control so Germans attempted to blow the whole facility up but something went wrong with the explosives so they just shut the whole facility, leaving the infected trapped inside.
Also in Overlord (2018), a small group of American soldiers during WW2 discovered that Nazis was conducting experiments in an attempt to create an army of soldiers with enhanced strength, speed, etc. It was also stated in the film and Germans didn't originally create the serum that causes those mutations, but they discovered it deep underground in France and experimented with it.
What's even scarier is that in reality, Nazis were actually experimenting with performance enhancement drug called D-IX that was supposed to give their soldiers superhuman strength and be harder to kill. Luckily, the war ended and the drug was never introduced.
"Human heaven? Goodness, humans don't go to heaven.
Someone just made that up to prevent you from all going nuts."
- Kryten, Red Dwarf S3E06 "The Last Day"
Will have to check those out ;)
Indeed the Themes have been covered in Numerous Movies.
I just find it interesting in HOW we had Ridley Scott refer to the Engineers in Alien Covenant as the ORIGINALS... we saw they looked different which some fans noticed/complained about as our Prometheus Engineers looked more Godlike and Superior to our Planet 4 Engineers.
So they are NOT worthy Creators.... where as those in Prometheus looked more worthy!
But a thing to remember is Peter Weyland was a Creator and does he look more Godlike and Superior than David? The Answer is NO!
so when RS mentions our Engineers on Planet 4 are the Originals, then it does suggest that those in Prometheus are Created/Evolved much Latter... and THIS is something i think would be interesting to consider.
Its always considered that a Creator/God would be more Superior to their Creation... but maybe thats NOT always the Case.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I for one are Concerned we MAY NEVER see much of our Engineers again, or Discover more about them, for instance where did the Bio-Mechanical Technology Come from?
The idea i had for a Prometheus 3 would have taken Dr Shaw and David to a World inhabited by Engineers and Humans but then i would have expanded on this with a connecting movie that would touch up more on the Bio-Mechanical Aspect in another Part of the Galaxy or another Galaxy all Together.
The Events could have then lead to the Engineers and Hierarchy returning back to our Part of the Galaxy many Hundreds of years after ALIENS. And brought about and explored a kind of WAR OF THE WORLDS...
I think its a shame a lot of Fans and likely Disney would see the Franchise as having to Center around the Xenomorphs... but the Engineers/Space Jockey are something that would have expanded the Franchise beyond that.
I am sure Fans was Disappointed at Alien Covenant, as far as what to expect from our Engineers and Discovery more about them.
I think it would have been nice to see some various Bio-Mechanical Ships and Buildings...
Buildings/Ships with say Conference Rooms like this.
Also when considering the Weyland Yutani Military Sulaco Ships.. i wondered what would a Engineer/Space Jockey Answer be to them?
I always liked the HR Giger Train Design.... and thought it looked like some kind of Mother Ship... like the Imperial Alliance Battle Ship from Star-fleet/X-Bomber
Loved to had seen a Engineer/HR Giger Version of that.
Which to me HR Gigers The Train looked like.
Talking about The Train.. its a shame this Project/Movie was never made, some of its Elements/Plot could have been used for a Engineer Ship that goes around Collecting Various Life-Forms.
Or maybe David could have similar kind of Horror Plot turning the Covenant Ship into The Train?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
@BigDave That is a bar in Switzerland not a conference room. You can see the beverage fridge in the background and various bottles of alcohol. But I would be curious if the Engineers would enjoy Coca-Cola....
Sorry i should have mentioned as far as Aesthetic but i guess having a BAR in their Meeting Rooms comes in handy ;)
So i would have liked to had seen a Scene were we see some kind of Corporate/Political Meeting Place with Chairs and Tables that had the Aesthetic of HR Gigers Bar, as well as the overall Aesthetic of that place..
Its a Nice Mix of Gothic meets HR Gigers Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic... But ALAS we never got to see that in Alien Covenant, and maybe we WONT in Future..
I think it would depend if Disney would be interesting in the Engineers and what kind of deal they can strike with the HR Giger Estate.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
What do you think of Giger's batmobile, BigDave?
"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"
NEVER seen that HR Giger BatMobile before, thanks for the Share, i dont think its suited to the BatMobile...... However as far as some Engineer small Craft be it some kind of Fighter/Scout or some kind of Hovercraft (i dont think Engineers would be using Wheels) then i think something like this would be VERY fitting.
I think one Mystery we have with the Engineers was HOW/WHEN/WHERE did they obtain that Bio-Mechanical looking Aesthetic/Technology and WHY they dont seem to have it on Planet 4 apart from the Ships in the Docking Hanger (Juggernauts) and Border Control Ship (Scorpionaught).
It appears they LIVE a basic Life like some Cultures do on Earth Still, where they Sparingly use Modern Technology but choose to LIVE the same Life/Culture that they had done Many Hundreds or Thousands of Years ago.
Is this by CHOICE?
Did they abandon such Technology apart from for a Few Purposes and if so WHY?
OR are they FORCED to Live in this Manner by the Hierarchy above THEM?
A lot of things that would be INTERESTING to discover, but UNLIKELY that we ever will :(
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
@BigDave, 2307: Winter's Dream passed me by. I checked the trailer and it was quite intriguing. Unfortunately it gets some really bad reviews on IMDB. Not so much for the story, but the apparently terrible acting and CGI. I might have bought it on iTunes were it not for the consistently bad reviews.
Yeah its only something i would recommend spending $2-3 on to Buy lol.... i saw it on the SY-FY Channel.
The reason i mentioned it, was because the Humanoids that where Engineered (think Replicants) did bare a resemblance to the Engineers... they was Engineers in like a Cross Between LV-223 and Planet 4...
The Movie seemed to take influences from the Prequels to ALIEN and Blade Runner....
The Interesting Part in Context to the TOPIC... is the Movie indicated that these Humanoids (who looked like Engineers) where Created for some Purpose (like David/Replicants) by Humans, but these Creations where intended to Serve and NOT Procreate... its when these Creations then became Sentient, and could Procreate that the Humans Decided they had to PULL the Plug on them!
And so when Ridley Scott called the Planet 4 Engineers the Originals... then the Winters Dream 2307 Plot could very well FIT with the relation between Planet 4 Engineers and LV-223 Engineers.
As i am drawn to those Prometheus Engineers being to the Planet 4 Engineers as Replicants are to Humans in Bladerunner.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
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