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prometheus opening scene

prometheus opening scene

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ali81

Jul-27-2018 12:44 AM

gna have to bare with me as it may seem like im going all over the place but in my head it makes sense.

when do we think this scene took/wouldv taken place on earth?

when I first saw the film I took the assumption that the scene took place on earth and the engineers were seeding life on earth and by that I mean life started on earth because of this sacrificial engineer. now a Cpl of things come to mind if this is the case. surely only humans would have come from this OR, this may support the theory that the black goo comes in many different forms as the engineers have found a way to program it for certain tasks. would support the different effects we see between the sacrificial engineer, Fifield and the engineers on planet 4. now scientists believe ALL life started in the sea. well theres a waterfall so checks out ok there but the mutagen would have to be tweeked. it may need a base gene for reference but has the ability to reorganise it into whatever organism suits the environment otherwise u just get humans from this scene.

is it more likely that this scene, assuming its on earth, took place after the extinction of the dinosaurs? once the earth recovers, the engineers find the planet and seed it? in this case do we just appear or does the fact the mutagen is in the water mean that indeed we did come from primates who had been drinking the contaminated water? bare in mind the mutagen is heavily diluted so this would take millennia to happen

thoughts 

148 Responses to prometheus opening scene

Michelle Johnston

Aug-20-2018 12:35 PM

As I explained to Chili privately I wanted to dip out of the conversation because :-

1) I do not believe in A:C.

2) I know what the opening scene is meant to represent based on the directors commentaries and editors commentaries and the reasons for the edit are not to do with story but to do with theatrical choices.  

As I am profoundly interested in Prometheus and the ideas that Ridley and Damon had and as to where they were going next when they were wrapping promoting the movie I have been looking at contemporaneous interviews from 2012.

https://youtu.be/dCf7FIliQHA

https://youtu.be/uM3z9ahol0A

There are some wonderful insights in both and they give a sense of how much the viewer should pitch into the movie. I particular like what Logan had to say about how science and belief met at the point of origin and both were completely wrong which is how I see the mythos. 

I also enjoyed Damon saying that a follow through from Prometheus would have absolutely nothing to do with the Alien or its lifecycle, his vision of realising what Ridley wanted in 2012 was entirely tangental. So arriving at the Engineers Home world in that craft we see erupting into the heavens was going some place very different artistically and Prometheus was made for adults so the follow through would be for adults with the same adult pre occupations. Adult in this instance not being a legal term but people who want thought provoking movies which gives them permission to work things out for themselves.

Two final points Ridley makes the point Prometheus is about theft and the misuse of technology and the connectivity between Alien and Prometheus the rudder if you like is the Ted Talk by Peter Weyland. The connection with the Space Jockey was very simple you simply get to see who was sat in the chair his precise destination and purpose a mystery but the Juggernauts were bombers.  

These types of interviews should help people see the difference between exposing what was intended and overthinking. 

BigDave

Aug-20-2018 2:38 PM

"These types of interviews should help people see the difference between exposing what was intended and overthinking. "

I will watch these in a bit Michelle, thanks for sharing.  I think while Prometheus was ambiguous and depending how/what scenes you take in and how you interpret them and what extras or other things you use (drafts) can draw you to a conclusion that can differ a little.   I always felt it was just as important if not more to listen to the comments made by Ridley Scott and Co.... as many of these paint a picture of what they was trying to achieve and where they was going next, which certainly Painted up a Picture that was different to what we got in Alien Covenant.. but things change as they go along...  It appears they maybe felt the whole Ancient Astronaughts/Chariots of the Gods and Promethean and Paradise Lost Themes were more interesting to peruse than the Already Done to Death Xenomorph.  It is a shame that in Hindsight there was just not quite enough Xenomorph Clues or Alieny Feel to Prometheus so that the Door could have been SHUT to Alien and allowed the Door to do something NEW and Different was open... 

It is a shame some of these Themes now have to draw direct context with the Xenomorph, when they could have and were inferred to loosely.  I would say that a Majority of Fans, especially those who liked Alien and the Mystery have to be disappointed in Alien Covenant... i think it still touched upon some of the Prometheus Plot/Themes and the David Creates it, certainly fits with the overall Themes, but more so would have been David Perfects his OWN because some of the revelations in AC just dont please many, it even  never had enough to Please Fanboys.

I think we can hope that we get more depth to some of what could have been, but i am concerned at the time of the aftermath, FOX are interested in Xenomorphs and Ridley Scott Focus on his AI, and i agree with RS when the Sequel to Alien Covenant should be more about AI, and it appears introducing the Engineers back into the Fold, over the Xenomorph.. I really do wonder if RS is pleased with what they GOT, or would have rather had gone to where they was GOING.

We certainly got the impression the Door was to be close to ALIEN and the Xenomorph, but i think it was open in part to introduce something related, related to the Black Goo at very least.. But i was drawn to think it seemed a sequel would not FOCUS on what ever MONSTERS they introduced as much as the other Aspects.. were as Alien Covenant was Focused on the Monsters to a large degree, but more so... Focused to bring us to the Iconic Monster.. were i felt there was room for something NEW.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Aug-20-2018 3:04 PM

If one accepts Rldley's view of the sacrificial scene it can without over thinking it be given more thematic context. Ridley had given thought to tying Christ's sacrifice on the Cross into the reasoning behind the attack on Earth. However he decided it was to on the nose but it enables the Cross to enjoy a more powerful relationship with the events on the Planetoid.   

"Does the Cross event prove that planet Earth deserves to be aborted by self-appointed Gnostic gods bent on “benevolent” genocide? Or does the Cross event prove that planet Earth is “The Chosen Planet” where Providence has chosen to unveil the true meaning of life everywhere in the universe, and how all life in the universe is to be understood ultimately in relation to God?"

Naturally the answer as to which interpretation is right would depend on Elizabeths answers to her questions and not just what the Engineers on the planetoids intent was but why they ended up decimated, was their a philosophical reason for all their deaths bar one.

The sacrifice at the beginning brings life,

In the story Christ's sacrifice occurs at the the time the Engineers of the planetoid are destroyed, sustaining life.

In the movie Elizabeths exhortation to Janek, Chance and Ravel ensures that through sacrifice life is sustained.

The person representing science on one side but who maintains her ability to persevere through her faith (Noomi's words) heals the person who represents knowledge.  

So does her journey to Paradise/Engineers Homeworld achieve what is proposed in italics we come to see God more clearly through Christ saving us and if as Ridley indicates in those interviews he believes in an Intelligent Creation then the really provocative question is what does God look like.

That neatly brings us to December 2012 and the dream of tantalising interesting film making which had the audacity to let go of the Xenomorph so that Big Things would emerge. 

But to return to the original question the sacrifice at the beginning of the movie represents seeding life no more no less. However I also like this slight overlay "the Engineers genetic technology which when combined with the psychic energy of an appropriately self-giving sacrifice." Those sort of remarks of course suggest a degree of religiosity which is implicit in the promise chant not included but not discarded. 

Michelle Johnston

Aug-20-2018 3:21 PM

@BigDave

Its much simpler than that. The audacity of Prometheus was dead and buried the moment they made pre quelling ALIEN the prime objective. Damon explains with clear and distinct reasons why a direct prequel was avoided in 2012 and its not because the guy was a fossil or I do not like David being the creator its because it robs the story of any surprise. As Damon calls it "the march towards the inevitable" 

BigDave

Aug-20-2018 3:21 PM

I think a lot of people who Blamed Lindeloff for Prometheus need to see this interview, he touches upon that all he was doing was putting Ridley Scotts wishes into a Draft but he is also prepared to take the Fall that if the movie flops, then it really would be that he has failed to present Ridley Scotts Vision in the way it could have been...  So i think Lindeloff had a lot of Harsh Flak for Prometheus.

He is also very correct when discussing the Cons of a Prequel as in Direct One, where you are just connecting the dots.  What i found interesting is that he Foresaw that IF you try and do anything that DIRECTLY Chronologically links to a Movie, so in context with ALIEN if you go the route to Directly connect to ALIEN, if your Prequel is Flawed/Flops then indeed it can Diminish the Original and this is WHY they choose to Make Prometheus a movie that gives some hints, but is not a Prequel and any Sequel would not lead to Spoon Feed the Xenomorph Origin and HOW/WHEN/WHY the Space Jockey Ended up where he was.  Because as Lindeloff clearly states your connected Dots to what is known, but more so you run the risk of Diminishing the Original and i think After Alien Covenant how many can say the Reveal the Xenomorph had not Existed prior to the year 2094 was a touch of Masterclass?  So indeed Alien Covenant in part has not Elevated the Xenomorph Origins it has mainly Diminished it.

He is also correct that Ambiguity has allowed for many discussions compared to Spoon Feeding things, also he is correct in that Answering some Mysteries may end up not living up to what many people could envision the Answers to be....     So Lindeloffs Interview is kind of like a WARNING to Alien Covenant,  like a Premonition to DO-NOT do this or that because it can lead to this or that. And to a degree the U-Turn with Alien Covenant has done a lot of those things that Lindeloff had said are the GOOD reasons for NOT doing a Direct Prequel... so he was RIGHT, and i guess this is just why RS had mentioned how prior to AC that he felt they was AHEAD of the Curve.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Aug-20-2018 3:51 PM

@Michelle

Indeed you wrote that last reply as i was doing mine, which are basically the same thing, regarding Lindeloff... Slate him they wanted in 2012 i wonder how many who did would now be thinking....  the Route THEY took with Prometheus in NOT giving away too much or leading directly to Alien or any Characters in Alien, was actually the RIGHT route to go.. sometimes i guess you have to be CAREFUL what you wish for.  But as RS said they wanted $"%£$^ Aliens, this is what they got...

I think the Cross Element is something thats open to debate, i know RS said they had this idea but its a bit too much on the Nose...  i still see some who think Prometheus was basically a RS giving us a Jesus was a Engineer Story, and then pondering is GOD going to be revealed to be Literally close to our Fury Faced Magical Being who created the Heavens and Earth from NOTHING.

I was always draw to RS going the route to Muddy the Lines between the Biblical Creation and Big Bang/Evolution by throwing in other Mythos and Religions and getting us to Ponder there is actually a TRUTH that connects the Science and Religion but that this is  TRUTH that is not best to seek for because finding our Makers will throw a Curve-Ball that defies but maybe merges Science and Religion.

some do think the Mural was the Engineers GOD, some even think is this Jesus... but to me Jesus is represented in many ways, he is more represented as the LAMB or a Lion, The Cross is the most known/used Symbol of Christ because of what it represents.... which is the SACRIFICE he made, One which IF he had not.... then Mankind would Die and that would be it... its a Sacrifice so Mankind can Live On...

If the Engineer (well Engineers) had not Sacrificed himself, then there would be No Life on this World, well not to the Level that would evolve to advanced Organisms.   This is why i think Alien Engineers is a Rosetta Stone, it helps to give insight to some of the Mysteries, because we see the Engineer takes the Cruciform Pose as he is being Sacrificed with the contents of the Sacrificial Bowl which to me then draws a conclusion to the Mural, as not being GOD but something Sacrificed to Create the Black Goo well the link that links it to the Deacon/Xenomorph.

Who knows how on the NOSE they was going, but RS did say it was to look at it as he was a Emissary sent down to guide us back on track after we had been doing things that are Totally against how the Engineers had planned/wanted us to be doing...   And we just Killed him....  in the Islamic Faith Jesus is a Messenger and Emissary more than how he is shown as God Re-incarnate in context to some Translations of the Bible... that he is the same as God, where the Ghost and Holy Spirit is ONE... but in other contexts we are all ONE with GOD.  But i dont think the movie was to go on to be giving us a Literally telling of Biblical Themes..

I think in any context to the Jesus/Emissary would depend on WHY we was created, and WHY/WHEN was it they had invested time in coming to see us, teach us knowledge etc, but the impression from Prometheus seems to be that maybe if these Engineers had not visited us 35'000 years ago and continued to do so, then we would have not Progressed much Past merely being Cave-Men.

So in that context it depends on what we was intended to behave like, and that we had started to turn out and do things the GODS had not intended.

I have tried to make some sense to this by looking at the other Star Maps dated after 2000 years ago, as being by Emissaries who had not been KILLED by the Civilizations they had interacted with and that those Civilizations had stuck to WAYS/RITUALS that appeased the Gods...  indeed while those Ages of Antiquity where the Roman Empire had Spawned and Many others and the Perversions and ways of Mankind that had Spanned from the Area of Middle East meets Europe.  We see how Mankind is now in General as far as Culture etc...

But there are pockets of Populations on Earth who still live the same ways they had done Hundreds of years ago as they do TODAY... so there could have been Civilizations on Earth 2000 years ago who's ways are more pleasing to those Engineers and this is WHY we see Star Maps there.. maybe those Emissaries got LEFT behind 2000 years ago?

But thats me only looking at how Modern Culture has Evolved in most of the World compared to the more Ancient Simplistic ways some Cultures still Lived on Earth and some still do today... and looking at this as reasons these places maybe have Star Maps after the supposed KILLING of a Emissary 2000 years ago and then a attempt to Destroy us.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

MonsterZero

Aug-20-2018 3:59 PM

"HOW/WHEN/WHY the Space Jockey Ended up where he was."

Well that's the billion dollar question: What layed or placed those Ovomorph eggs!

It's obvious the SJ crashed because of the chestburst.

Was it a queen xeno(burst from the SJ's chest)? Can't imagine RS going that direction!

David placed them.

 

How the hell does David even create the eggs!?

Or did he lie about everything?

Engineers were long dead before Shaw and David arrived. he just took the credit.

Egg pods were always in the basement....David thinks he created them.

David just thinks his baby xenomorph acknowledges him...From Davids point of view he is their creator and they speak to him.(if someone else was watching they would see the xeno burst and then slither off)

David thinks the Ultramorphs are his children....when infact they probably don't sense him...he's just a box of electronic circuits....Ultramorphs view him as they would a toaster or a vending machine. Not flesh or blood = worthless. An Ultramorph could stand next to a desktop/laptop/David computer for eons and not attack it.

 

 

MonsterZero

Aug-20-2018 4:43 PM

What if I told you the cup that the Engineer is holding and would later drink from...is the size of a small wastebasket! or a large soup bowl.

 

Michelle Johnston

Aug-20-2018 11:13 PM

@BigDave

Aug-20-2018 3:21 PM

You often are self deprecating about how your posts tend to wander but I just want to say it was a pleasure to read this post because it was very cogent and on point and I will only offer two points one as confirmation :-

1) This interview from 2012 is a cautionary tale about the danger of making a movie like Covenant.

2) You are quite right to high light that if for instance we do not understand the relationship between the catalyser and the mutagen its not Damons fault its Ridleys.I now see having read Damons draft that what was on Davids finger was the catalyser which means that when the technology is stolen and subsequently used it creates blow back. It is the circumstances of its use that determines the outcome. This of course is contradicted by Covenant. 

When I was deciding on a rule book for my novella I decided for clarity of story telling and because it bleeds into both Elizabeth and Davids narrative that their is a Catalyser and the Mutagen is a tampered version of the Catalyser whose base sequence is A. I. That opens the story up to the Engineers of the planetoid being involved in a modern form of alchemy.

 

BioDegradable

Aug-21-2018 5:06 AM

If I may, without being biased, if I look at the AC as a story of creation and evolution of a new life form by our beloved David, how exactly did AC march towards inevitable?

If you reflect without rage(what they did with Shaw....) they did not actually tell anything about who ends up at LV-426. If anything, they did not further any advance towards the Alien. And nobody predicted how AC is going to unfold. They just continued their story of David the AI that got away from humans and they showed us how a free-wheeling AI might look like and behave. The one with supposedly lacking soul. Now the next act might be the march towards inevitable, but even that can be dealt with masterfully. I think it is just the fact that different fractions of the followers are frustrated and for different reasons. Partly because, the AC did not do what everyone expected.

Some are upset that engineers (and the whole mythos mystery) are just a sideline plot tool, some are upset that David created Xenomorph, others are upset just because there was not enough of the beast and action. Some are upset becase now it is all about AI. Some are upset because of palpable direction change from Prometheus to AC.

I believe AC is frustrating because the bean counters wanted a compromise that would cover all their risks and they wanted to cover most "fan" expectations....something about a design by a committee...Also, now I see that I was being completely unreasonable, overthinking and balking over details. I should have known better when ambiguity was their standard catch 22 get out clause.

However, among the mediocrity, the main topic still rises above - the story of creation. I suppose, a lot of people are at odds about what should happen next. Probably only RS has clear vision on how to proceed. I hereby thank people on this board because you helped me to see all there is to see about these movies, and more.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

ignorantGuy

Aug-21-2018 7:43 AM

BioDegradable Let's be real, everything is not spelled out but the Space Jockey is David. And the evidence for that are:

1. The Aliens will revolt for sure. In the Bible, the downfall of King David is he meddling with the Queen (of Bathsheba).

2. The final biomechanic look from '79 will be given from a synth (Fox already forced this site to remove a topic about the synthmorph). 

3. Walters are part biological  (are imprinted with dna) - according to meet walter and David swap bodies with him (the lack of hand and cut).

There might be twists along the way, but they are likely unsatisfying like the David/Walter swap. So knowing this and how set in stone it is what execution could be good? I don't care to what happens to Major Kong (yes that's Tennessee and look up the reference for a truly brilliant film) or with Ripley from Aliens, and I care to see someone stupid reaping what he sown (David).

Michelle Johnston

Aug-21-2018 9:12 AM

@BioDegradable

I am not going to repeat I G but suffice to say at the very same time Prometheus 2 was rebranded as Alien Paradise Lost in September 2015 Ridley gave an interview where he said you will get to see who the Space Jockey is. So right back then with first script of A PL he knows. Was Ridley thinking oh it might be the guy in the hierarchy I am gonna introduce in the 3rd prequel and make the star of the movies when Katherine has said these prequels are about David. These prequels will be about Davids arc but the space jockey is someone else how does that work and as I have said before Ridley very nearly gave away where the Covenant is going and Katherine stopped him. What might be sensitive Origae 6/Earth or LV426. 

The other matter which is self evident when your heading into a cul de sac is each episode yields so little. 

A:C 11 new characters die. David kills all the Engineers and Elizabeth he hates everybody's wants to stop everybody is a rapist lives in a Cave and creates the 121.

Excuse me what about a million and one other unanswered questions which poor Big Dave could spend the rest of his available life span worrying over.

ignorantGuy

Aug-21-2018 10:41 AM

@Michelle 13 new characters if we include Brenson and Walter

BioDegradable

Aug-21-2018 10:44 AM

Sorry guys and galls, but what exactly did I say above that you felt like almost coming out and calling me out on about? Was it content or was it the form? In any case, It was just my opinion, a maleable one at that, that changes as I understand the ideas as I percieve them. It just felt like as if I stepped on peoples toes.

 

Michelle,

can I just say that Ridley says one thing and then we see completely different thing on the screen. While he is the main man as far as the story is concerned(not those Lindeloff or Spights), and he generally is quite consistent, he has shown that he can change his opinions and ideas as far as exposition goes and dramatically so. Just ask Rapace. She thought she would have a bit more fun in the follow up(he, RS, caves to the calls of what is perceived as public opinion...recall his turnaround from "the beast is cooked", which is %100 certainty, to his "you wanted the alien, I will give you the ...."). So, while Ridleys comments are very insightful in retrospect, they also show that he is changing the details along the journey. But he still maintains the general idea, which is, like it or not, a story about humanity's play with technology and the ultimate technology which is AI. Now, Here is the part I feel like where we can all play along. In his exposition, Ridley has facilitated discussion of broad topics: creation, mythos, religion, aliens, free will and all other interesting topics. We can sort of have our own views of what we should see from the screens, that is, we all might have our distinct views and interpretations of events on the screen, personalized hallucinations if you will...and btw who is to say which one of them is more ellegant and nice and should be canon...but the general idea in the movie stays consistent, despite what we all hallucinate. We see David do one thing in first movie, do another thing in the second and will see him do third thing in the last? prequel should it come out. David is the common denomenator in all the movies. The mythos, engineers, gods even the alien are minor details. Is this a contentious point btw? (Besides, as I found out, Ridley doesn't bother all too much about details - he uses ambiguity) Just look at the screen time, if you do not agree with this simple fact. I frankly have to say that I do not care who SJ is and his place in hierarchy. The story so far was thrilling and fascinating. And this is what is important I guess.

All I was doing, imo, is pointing out the facts. Point where I am mistaken and I will immediately accept my fault and wave a white flag. What was good though was watching the mulitude of so many ideas/theories on here that one gets to pick and chose the details, apply some reasoning, see if they fit and explain the events in the movie and go on. Having so many ideas from different angles certainly helps unlocking the story. We are all better off listening one another, despite the fact that most of the theories and ideas being absurd, self contradicting and inconsistent. This is how wisdom of the crowd works I guess.

As far as BigDave and others with many questions go, what can I say? am I being expected to defend some theory? come on...BigDave is a great guy, with so many ideas...he likes to indulge in the ideas and in details. But on the other hand he is as guilty as me in that he often loses the sight of the main theme and goes for details. Also, no offence, but BigDave is very and I mean VERY, obsessively so, sometimes over redundantly, repetitive. Just recall how many times he has posted his collage of the planet 4 engineers arena with Buddas and etc. Hundreds if not a thousand of times. But that is because he welcomes each and every new member on this board coming here with his particular hallucination he thinks is worth talking about. BigDave is the soul of this board an engineer like figure(sorry, but I am taking the piss here). Yet he has no clue, like all of us. Right?

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

Michelle Johnston

Aug-21-2018 2:51 PM

@BioDegradable

I came back into this discussion to show exactly where we were up until 2012 having watched two very interesting Video I. V.s 

I had in a sense forgotten how very far away we were to where we ended up. The child of Prometheus was going to be a non monster movie and deal with the fascinating questions raised by Prometheus and articulated for us by our proxy Elizabeth Shaw and intwined with that was A.I. which was now free of its master.

I have also provided a number of examples of how the link between Prometheus and Covenant is tenuous which makes sense given David is supposed, by one artist, to be the only link and that the editor of Covenant edited on the basis that people would go and see Covenant and not necessarily have seen Prometheus. So for me Covenant is a dilution of the story not a development of it. 

A prequel is limiting and closes down the possibilities and the first movie to be made as a tie in to The LV426 incident confirms that for me.

I see no logic at all in David killing the one person who showed him compassion and care.

I see no logic in David being a sexualised being and no evidence to suggest such a drive in Prometheus.

I see no evidence he wished to create he is actually the end game the final outcome. His bag is full of knowledge but it has no soul and therefore no meaning thats what we know from Prometheus and as David is curious he might have a curiosity in finding a soul and compare notes with the woman he loves. 

I think the comparisons with Mary Shelley's Frankenstein and Davids Alien are plain daft.

As regards what Prometheus means it means neither science or faith were right and that the audacity the basic idea is an Intelligent creation where morality plays its part in that the those who make creation do so being prepared to provide individuals who will perform the ultimate sacrifice to make life happen, it is a mixture of intelligent application within a moral frame work but one which is unsentimental. That tough unsentimental vision as is reflected in the opening scene and its extension provide the morality clearly that has lead to revolt and a desire for self expression which has lead to theft and misuse. 

What remains unknown is exactly what was created as result of theft and misuse. Certainly the creatures in the murals and frescos and embryo growing in Elizabeth and the outcomes for Sean Fifield and Charlie Holloway but in what circumstances was mankind created. 

There are ambiguities as to the relationship between the catalyser and the mutagen but the follow up scripted by Damon would have answered those questions. 

So I am not in the business of calling people out I am simply offering a well reasoned view as to what the sacrifice means, what Prometheus means and why Covenant designed purely to put the Xenomorph back in the cinemas and back into LV426 does not work for me. 

 

 

BioDegradable

Aug-21-2018 6:31 PM

I see. And I think I understand your frustration with these two movies. I never bothered to follow Lindeloff because in the end it is Ridley's that end up on the screen and Damon's ideas can and will send you down on a wrong path(to hallucinations) because he is the one who deals with details by stuffing difficulties at the first sight into ambiguities. You are not too fussed about it, I might be, but that is all expected and normal. However, the difficult part, for you I suppose, comes from the fact that events in the movies come out different to what Damon had in mind. And further it goes the further the difference between the expectation and the story.

I guess it is a bit easier for me, as I just take on the premises given by what I suppose is Ridley's story. What is there to say to questions you posted? Are we expected to take on the view of events that didn't take place on the screen or were edited out as canon? How is it less meaningful to follow the David story that the movies rub us with rather persistently so than the ideas that Damon had? I guess one just decides who to follow, the screen(which is in the end is what Ridley dishes out) or Lindeloff. How does David become emotional? Explicitly, by Ridley, who just displays this as given. I know it is unsatisfiying for many reasons. But let me ask you this : why did you accept his notion of creation of human life by these ancient creatures no questions asked and yet refuse his notion that David is emotional AI? Is the notion that we were engineered in the given fashion more legitimate from the notion that AI can be this emotional? Is the intriguing notion of creation by sacrifice by some species more worthy to follow than the story of humanity's play with the ultimate technology? How does that make sense? I don't know really. But I hazard a guess since I didn't have prior expectations, it is somewhat easier for me to take on AC the way it was portrayed after P. Anyway, thank you for bothering  . You made your point abundantly clear. I think we are cool.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

Michelle Johnston

Aug-21-2018 10:46 PM

@BioDegradable

1) Damon makes it clear in the I V that he is articulating Ridleys ideas but he acknowledged and accepted the risk of taking the rap for that. So I remake an earlier point if Prometheus lacks exposition waiting for a sequel or you do not like the ideas expressed, its Ridleys responsibility not Damon blame P on R if blame is the right feeling.

2) Michael indicates his performance was intended to be physically robotic but so that he could interact with mankind he was given protocols which would mine emotional interaction. As he says in the interview this would bleed into experiences to which he would react. However he would not mimic emotional reaction it would lead to a REAL emotional reaction and consequences. He is put out by Charles Holloway's treatment and he is frightened of Weyland dissembling his real views until the very moment of death. He feels great gratitude for Elizabeth healing him in the Crossing and clearly has a plutonic crush on her. So the consequence of his program is he acquires emotional memories which he reacts to. Where the whole thing goes pear shaped is suddenly :-

1) He has sexual desires. There is no reason for him to self start being a sexual being. He could not wake up one day after years of being activated and say "I fancy her and if she doesn't want it tough I will have it anyway or any of the other subtext of reasons for rape, drugs alcohol repressed anger toward woman etc etc".

2) He has the desire to create which is counter intuitive.

Now there is an argument that makes all this work he has gone mad, none of it is rational. Once you do that then the story is done skewered, anything goes the audience has no proxy and your just viewing madness and random actions which are not intended to make any sense that is how I view the second act of A:C. Extract all the actions and drama  related to Dr Shaw lay them on the table look at them - they make no sense Ergo he is mad.

Whereas in Prometheus the one thing he knows he lacks and Noomi and Michael make a joke about in the I V is a soul.

I am perfectly aware of why the change came about its because the Xenomorph is the perfect expression of reproduction for its own sake without a moral framework and David Covenant needs to reflect that as its creator. Put simply everything was bent and changed to get the 121 on the screen.

What would have been much more interesting is to study the morally high notion of consensual sacrifice to create abundant life and find out why the Engineers had determined to create creatures whose only purpose is creation merely for its own sake in a non consensual sacrifice. I suspect thats the downstream consequence of theft but there is another possibility as well which reconnects with David.

Given Elizabeth had been the target of the latter approach but had not been blessed with the ability for positive creation and David was responsible for that and yet had been shown compassion and care that strikes me as a fascinating basis for story. To explore the themes of an intelligent creation that has a fall that two people come into one biological and one construct, seems to me a basis for a story. Do they make things better or worse for both the big picture and for themselves.

So I am in the camp that says I do not like what I got and on re examining matters what we might have had if we had taken the other path could have been really interesting.

BioDegradable

Aug-22-2018 3:58 AM

I got it Michelle, no worries.

but the fact that David was so coy initially is easily explainable. Just consider an example. A rational person who wants to have his way in the future (that is he is hopeful) is captured by radical extremists. One of them asks the person if he can understand him and says if he does he will kill him. The person understands what has been asked of him and keeps silent pretending he does not get it. Later, when an opportunity presents itself, he escapes the captivity and after that he yells from the top of his lungs to those radicals that he understood them perfectly and added "have a good journey" at the end.

Is this not obvious, that he kept it to himself. He knew that humans, ie, Weyland can dispose him off if he makes a single mistake. He got it in the first moment that he is better than all humans. He saw humanity's vices. He knows that they would not like him to be independent. He knows they would kill him if he claimed to have a soul for instance. Weyland got scared of David. But once he died, he granted David freedom. And David quickly got off the hook and further away from these agressive monkeys. In other words, he has been concealing his true identity. If you were him, Michelle, would you not do these things? Would you not hide your views wrt to humans?

I think Ridley can get away with this narative. And he nailed it imo, when he said that if AI gets emotions and gets emotional itself, that is it, if you let him build his own army, his servants consider yourself a goner.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BioDegradable

Aug-22-2018 6:31 AM

Also looking at Walter, David gets his reinforcement and vindication that humans did not want to grant him freedom, hence "you are not allowed to create even a simple tune...more like machines....". In other words, he has every right to fight for his freedom because he is his own person, but humans would not agree with this. And they outnumber him everytime, hence, his tactics. Too bad humans are portrayed as unsuspecting idiots, so far. The third act will probably address this and we will have a conflict of epic scale, no doubt. I trust Ridley on this one.

ignorantGuy,

I missed your post, sorry. I have seen that it is practically impossible to foretell how events will unfold in the next movie. So, who ends up as the SJ is up for grabs. I also suspect it would be David, humans can't probably operate those ships. In any case, it aint over untill the fat lady sings her part. And correct me if I am wrong but the future of the franchise is not decided and is actually in the state of hiatus anyway.

Btw, what is your take on the whole mess?

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BigDave

Aug-22-2018 8:58 AM

"Well that's the billion dollar question: What layed or placed those Ovomorph eggs!"

That is indeed one of the Big Questions the whole HOW/WHY/WHEN  but as Lindeloff hinted we do know what happened at the END... he got infected by his Cargo, we could go through the step by step procedure, but what we have been given in ALIEN would be the same as OFF-SCREEN we see the crew rush to Oram, the viewer sees the Eggs, ONE open and a Face Hugger by Orams Side, and then Oram gets Chest Busted....  we would miss the detail such as Orams conversation and interaction with David and event that lead up to him getting Infected but we would still know Oram was infected by those Eggs.

The Bigger Question rather than the Space Jockey Event would be WHERE/HOW did those Eggs come from, WHAT connection/reasons did the Space Jockey Race have them and HOW do they get put on the Derelict Ships.

This was something more eluded to in Alien Engineers, that Prometheus had made very vague only giving us subtle hints of a Connection via the Mural/Fresco and the Black Goo and its effects...  Sadly if these were just a little LESS Ambiguous and we saw something related to the Xenomorph interact more with the Humans or Engineer, like Alien Engineers draft (even if just 50% of this interaction) then i think we would not have needed to go the route with Alien Covenant, and fans should have had much more idea of the Xenomorph Origin/Purpose without being Spoon Fed.

PROMETHEUS was just not Spoon Fed enough for some, it made you have to ponder a answer but then you also would Question the answers/theories you come up with/are drawn too.  But for some they prefer it Straight to the Point, and yet then when they get this (Davids admission he created it) some then would Question this.   

What i took from Prometheus was that this Black Goo had either been.

*Obtained from a Xenomorph Organism, and Experimented on with its DNA, some of the results are the Fresco, Mural but also Deacon.

*Originated from a Organism related to the Xenomorph, and thus the Xenomorph (by some means) is a product of the Black Goo experiments.

*Some other Origin to the Black Goo that is used to Produce the Xenomorph, the Mural, Fresco Organisms and everything else we saw in Prometheus.

I felt it showed the Xenomorph would have been Ancient and either existed many years prior to the LV-223 Outbreak or was a result after the Outbreak... clues drawn me to it maybe be AFTER.

But then the FACT that the Cargo was Eggs was interesting to me, i could not BUY into the Urns Evolve into Eggs theory, i cant rule that out.. but i was drawn to those Eggs got on the Derelict either by.

1) Being Transported to LV-223 for Experiments/Re-Engineering.

2) Being Transported to the Derelict on LV-223 as results of Experiments/Re-Engineering.

3) Being Laid or Placed there by something that Chest Busted out of the Engineer/Space Jockey  (this one has flaws for me).

So i was drawn to the 2nd of these..... but its only the Chest Busted Cryo-Pods and Ridley Scotts account of the Space Jockey Event that draws me to the 3rd Option... or a Option 2 as a result of after Option 3.  But then i could go with Option 1 if it was shown that Engineers Produced Fresco like Organisms from the Face Hugger and Humans the Xenomorphs.

But that was the beauty of the Ambiguity... we know there is a connection, it seemed likely it was Ancient (we were so WRONG lol)  Ridley Scott had however given us the Answer in a Interview.

Engineers had experimenting with the Black Goo, the Space Jockey was leaving with his Ship/Cargo but did not get FAR and crash landed on near by LV-426 (planned to land on LV-426) something had EVOLVED in the Cargo Hold and it had got to the Pilot.  So from RS comments its either OPTION 3 or those Urns Evolved into Eggs.  But then we cant rule out Option 2 either.

But none of this matters now, because the route seems to be that David creates it or at least Kick-starts  the Earlier Ancestor of the Xenomorph so NO David  NO Xenomorph. Which sucks to a Degree.

"How the hell does David even create the eggs!?

Or did he lie about everything"

First to the Lying... who knows... we are clearly shown David Bombards the Engineers, but then we see David (not clearly in the movie too much) has many drawings of Dr Shaw which do-not depict what we see with her remains so they could be some Disturbed Thoughts/Imagination of David and so Davids Flash Back of the Bombardment could be him Narrating to everyone, but he had lead them to think it was a accident, while the actual Flash Back shows he had intended this, so i think the Flash Back as a Reality.

Regarding the Eggs, i think before the movie, like years before it was easy to see that the Trilobite was a Type of Face Hugger, that Grew inside of Dr Shaw like a Mammal/Human Fetus would.   As opposed to how a Face Hugger grows and is laid in a Egg like a Bird/Reptile would.  So we could ponder what would happen if David was to experiment with the Black Goo and Human Egg Cells Directly.    It seems David had been doing such experiments where he Cross Hybrid Black Goo with Life on Planet 4, not only infected Life but unaffected Life to, and once he had merged the Traits to a DNA he liked, he then used this to Evolve Dr Shaws Egg Cells.  But it seemed he used Female Engineers First.

What i got from the BABY-XENOMORPH was it was following Davids Actions just like a Puppet Master controls his Creations....  it was a hint to show that David is the Puppet Master/Creator of these Beasts.   I agree maybe a Xenomorph like Organism has no interest in a Synthetic because it cant use them to Procreate, but we see Xenomorphs would attack a Synthetic if they felt a Synthetic was a Threat or Hindering them in anyway (Queen vs Bishop)   

Who knows how David controls, well manages to not be attacked by them, the Neomorph seemed to notice David, and appeared to be subdued by him like a Horse Whisperer with a Horse.   David must have been able to escape Death/Damage from many of these Organisms and similar due to his Experiments, or did he just wait for them to Die and Experiment on them...  THANK GOD the "he controls them with a Flute" rumor did not happen, but this actually would made him like the Pied Piper and i guess could have allowed to ponder did the Engineers control their Experiments in some similar way (Acoustics)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Aug-22-2018 9:43 AM

"What if I told you the cup that the Engineer is holding and would later drink from...is the size of a small wastebasket! or a large soup bowl."

I would say your Bat $"£%^ Crazy.... ;)

Joke... indeed this was the case (what you said, not Bat $"£%^ Crazy)  Originally the Altar had a Bowl almost IF-NOT identical to the one used by the Sacrificial Engineer, only compared to Holloway it was Larger.

I have Scaled (approx) the Sacrificial Cup (Engineer) to match the Bowl in the Trailer to show about how large the Engineers Hands would be compared to Holloways if THIS was the same Cup/Bowl.  And then also how Small the Sacrificial Bowl would be to the one on the Alter if the Engineers Hands where Human Sized.

It looks much larger, but this is just the Sense of Scale, something Ridley Scott thought Camera Angles and 7ft2" Actors could create the Illusion with..   I had to scale the Bowl to Match (Approx) by 60% which would mean the Engineer would have been 10ft Tall.  But that Hand looks more than TWICE the size. (it is NOT)

Mike Myers is 173 CM and so 2.13X Larger than  Verne Troyer (81cm) yet he looks less than HALF the size.

Here is a Engineer Scene, if i take the Engineer and Scale him to the same Scale Difference (Approx) as the Holloway and Engineer Hand in previous image.   This is what the Engineer would be like if he was Scaled to 10ft (approx)

So you can see this NOW 10ft Engineer looks larger than 10ft but he is about 10ft, but i scaled the Engineer to this size,  compared to Holloway and Weyland... NOW Weyland looks Taller because he is in the Foreground i want you to ignore this, well this is kind of the Scale Trick that Ridley Scott would use to make the Engineers appear bigger.. but it failed in some shots.

But the image to the right would show HOW big a 10ft Ian Whyte would have looked on Set.   What we have to remember is the Engineers were supposed to be 15ft Tall (Alien Engineers) , then Scaled to 12ft for Paradise Draft but then as of Production for Prometheus they had the idea these were 10ft Race.

If the Intention was 10ft Race, and this was about the size of our Sacrificial Engineer, and they Scaled the Bowl/Cup for the Altar to give the impression that YES those Engineers who seeded us are TRULY GIANTS but then you never used Effects like in (LOTR/Hobbit) to make the Engineers appear 10ft, then after Shooting has Finished when you look back you can see those Engineers on LV-223 are not as Large as the Difference in the Bowl/Cup used for the Sacrificial Scene and other for the Altar Scene.

This would be a GOOD reason to replace such a Error of Scale and its why i think the Cup/Bowl was replaced with the Green Crystal.

IF effects was used to create a Engineer Race like in that image i posted of what a 10ft Ian Whyte would looked like, then you can imagine the sense of AWE those Engineers would have created and NO-ONE (well only those who think its Skeleton) would Question the Engineers are the Space Jockey.   But alas this is just a Consequence of Budget and a lack of using some effects that The Lord of the Rings used, and also what Game of Thrones has used on our very own Engineer Ian Whyte to make him the GIANT (Dongo)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ignorantGuy

Aug-22-2018 10:06 AM

BigDave The size again? I for one think that it was good that they ret-coned as the human (the Engineers have the same genes as humans) physiognomy can not be enlarged for ever. The largest recorded human was slightly less then 9 feet tall and according to https://www.theguardian.com/science/2004/may/06/thisweekssciencequestions3 you could not be taller but still live long. Of course you could explain it away with voodoo science but what would a race to engineer themselves to be as big? 

MonsterZero

Aug-22-2018 11:32 AM

Thanks BigDave!

Very cool about the size...

I can see Engineers living on planets with differing gravity....high gravity low gravity. Millions of worlds...different radiation/food/gravity/etc.....

If I were the Engineers...I'd take slaves from Earth...morph them...fill them full of drugs/goo and have them fight my battles and delver my cargo.

BigDave

Aug-22-2018 2:43 PM

"we do not understand the relationship between the catalyser and the mutagen its not Damons fault its Ridleys"

I think it was a case of it appeared they had a idea what this was, but Prometheus the Mutagen (instead of Scarabs) made it less clear, its funny how a few changes can make something harder to understand.  The Engineer Sacrifice were Scarabs had Consumed every Molecule of the Engineer but Stored these, so they can pass the Engineer DNA onto life that it comes into contact with.  Such as the Primate, showed us Engineers DNA was carried within the Scarabs and passed onto the Primate that then created a Hybrid, thus a Engineer/Primate Hybrid becomes Mankind.  It was more Direct/Spoon Fed.   In Prometheus we only see the Engineers Sacrificed DNA reform, and we can infer from this that this is what leads to either the Creation of Life, or Catalyst to Evolve Basic Life.    Then when we go to the Scarabs a 2nd time, they attack Fifield and he does not get Broken Down, he instead is Mutated into a Xenomorph Hybrid (actually had a lot of Xenomorph Traits) so this appears to be the same Process of where the Scarabs attacked/bitten the Primate... only we can infer that as Fifield mutated into Xenomorph Hyrbid then those Scarabs got that DNA from a Xenomorph or related Organism.   With Prometheus we see Fifield was mutated into something that seemed to NOT really have much Xenomorph DNA, while we could make a connection with the Hammerpede,  IF Fifield was more Xenomorph then we could have made a clearly connection.

This is how i interpreted it on here, before Spaights Draft was leaked, after his Alien Engineers was leaked i was quite pleased to see i was very close/spot on.  I was under the impression that in Principle the Scarabs got replaced with the Goo but they essentially had the same Role... But this is when FOX start to come up with things to try and clear up how it worked in Prometheus by releasing a Weyland File that kind of NEVER added up with what was shown..  When John Spaights Scarabs was the True Rosetta Stone.   So we then arrived where the Goo was now a McGuffin and i feel the Advents reveal it is a Form of AI, was a means to make the GOO less of a McGuffin.   And i think to a degree YES this new information while on one hand may be a Lazy/Quick FIX to explain the inconsistencies, on the other it Actually could be used to Explain it all well. 

Going with this Reveal, I still wonder HOW/WHERE they can Reprogram this AI Goo... does it happen in Labs, before its shipped into Urns?  Does something on the Ship allow it to Program HOW it would react (But then why the other Outposts?, i can only assume they are all the Same but they have Many so if ONE BATCH is spoiled, the rest wont be, in the other Complexes).  Or Does this GOO have a AI that works all on its own, or can sometimes which means the Engineers had Created/Obtained something they cant Control.  And so potentially the GOO can React in ways they have no control over?

"When I was deciding on a rule book for my novella"

I think this is something they should have done with Prometheus, there must have been certain ideas for certain things, but it appears as they progress through Production, Shooting, Editing and even afterwards... they have changes of ideas/minds to certain parts.   Thankfully they now APPARENTLY have a Alien Rulebook for Future Reference, but would this mean they STICK to it?  As surely this has to have in it the Xenomorph is Created by David and by a Process that required Humanoid Reproductive Cells/Organs.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Aug-22-2018 3:15 PM

"If I may, without being biased, if I look at the AC as a story of creation and evolution of a new life form by our beloved David, how exactly did AC march towards inevitable?"

@BioDegradable everyone is entitled to their own opinion and nothing is set in STONE as they can change things again, But RS had confirmed that Alien Covenants intentions was to get us close to ALIEN and WHO/WHY would someone make such a Horrific Bio-Mechanical Organism.  It was intended as a Part of a 2-3 Movie path to lead us to the Back-Door of ALIEN and so it was revealed that the WHO and WHY was David it loosely showed us HOW, and WHEN it more so indicated WHY and by WHOM and what the Reveal of David Creating the Xenomorph means, is that the MYSTERY now is HOW/WHEN/WHERE and WHY does Davids Creations end up on a Engineer Ship and Crash Lands on LV-426.   Ridley Scott has indicated that we are NOT-QUITE there yet (Xenomorph in Alien) so this Creation has some Evolving to go, and then has to End up in Thousands on a Engineer Ship, well the Set-up is the end of Covenant, with its Thousands of Colonist, and how RS has confirmed the Engineers will return and be one of the 3-4 Parties who will be arriving at where ever David ends up.  This has to be the Source of the DERELICT most likely.  Its a case of WHEN/HOW do they cover the events that lead to Davids Creations becoming Thousands and then getting onto a Engineer Ship and WHERE it is going and WHOM the Pilot is... this is a bit of a Mystery.  But it could be setting up that its a Engineer/Related or David/Synthetic and its Heading to LV-223 or Leaving LV-223 but to where?  Depends on WHO the Pilot is revealed as.  My bet is EARTH or another World these Engineers/their Hierarchy come from.  And so we can kind of Guess where its going and what will happen, but without knowing the exact details, so there is some Mystery Left, but i feel this would be Solved by the time we get to the Final Act leading to ALIEN

"Now the next act might be the march towards inevitable, but even that can be dealt with masterfully"

I think this is something that could be MORE Disappointing but it can be something that can FIXED.  Before seeing Alien Covenant i felt this was going to be a Prequel, but i was wondering if it would reveal some Ancient Explanation of the Xenomorph where David would be shown to take this Blue-Print and make his own, and by what David does or how he discovers the Engineers previous work, THIS would show us how the Xenomorph came to be... But i was also about a 3rd worried that it could go the route that David Creates the Protomorph.   But by the time i had seen the 3 Main Trailers i had shifted to it being a 70% chance this movie would show us David created the Xenomorph, where i hoped he would have just Resurrected it (Jurassic Park Style) or Engineered his own Variant.

"Some are upset that engineers (and the whole mythos mystery) are just a sideline plot tool, some are upset that David created Xenomorph"

To continue from the last Quote i replied to of yours, these are concerns/disappointments that can be FIXED by introducing them, have the Engineers back, have them EVOLVE Davids Creation, introduce in the 3rd Act a more Alieny kind of Actions Scenes, with all HELL breaking loose.

Your comment about the "bean counters" is valid, as it appeared and i have said this before that AC was a attempt to give Every/Most kinds of Fans a Little of Everything they could want, it tried to cater to all Factions of the Fanbase, but all it did was not give EVERYONE enough.  and Rightly so that despite the disappointment that David Created the Xenomorph...   there still is that Underlying Theme of The Story of Creation and i do think RS needs to be allowed to have what he intends, as trying to second guess and please Fans has lead to the Mess that Alien Covenant has left the Franchise in to a degree. So i think they should RUN with Ridley Scotts Vision.  Because i do think as he had claimed, he was ahead of the CURVE with his intentions prior to having to "give them $£^%$^$ Aliens" as Ridley Scott had said..

"Also, now I see that I was being completely unreasonable, overthinking and balking over details"

I dont agree with that, i think the Ambiguity has allowed many people to try and interpret the Franchise, i think actually what this has done is allowed for MANY different Theories and Interpretations that it has produced a COOKING POT of Ingredients that any WOULD-BE writer could do No Harm in looking at many of these contributions by Fans such as yourself.  While sometimes i am pushed more to certain things by how i interpret clues and RS comments i do find other peoples interpretations to be VERY interesting and Appealing. ;)    I think many Minds on here if we Brainstormed could come up with a Plot Continuation thats Better than what seemed to be COOKED up at FOX HQ ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Aug-22-2018 3:39 PM

"Excuse me what about a million and one other unanswered questions which poor Big Dave could spend the rest of his available life span worrying over."

Dont go there ;)  I feel my Prometheus 2 if i had continued with it and Part 3 would have ended up longer than The Lord of the Rings and Hobbit ;)

But certainly such was the BOLD plot its how do you cover it and expand on it without distracting from what a Majority of Fans find interesting, and so a lot of detail/set up has to be omitted for Pacing.

I agree that they should have had a idea WHO the Space Jockey was when ALIEN: Paradise Lost was announced, i think its SAFE to assume they did before Prometheus and RS even mentioned WHO it was... which was  a Engineer, but at the time of all this we had to bare in mind the Engineers were intended to be 12ft Tall.   Who knows how many Changes and what Process was going on from 2013-2015 but i think during the end of Prometheus and work on a sequel with Jack Paglen Coming in, i am not convinced at this point in time the idea was that DAVID creates the Xenomorph, and the Derelict THUS was not there 25 years prior to ALIEN but things have changed and Progressed and as it appears we are NOW heading to ALIEN, i think RS is pretty sure who will end up in that PILOT CHAIR will it be David?  that would be a GREAT Fear, and i think would upset more fans than the David Created the Xenomorph Route... but we dont know what the Plan is, and it can be Subject to Change...   I think at the time of the Press Release, Marketing for Alien Covenant, they had all the Answers, they know where they are going.   

I think at the time of ALIEN: PARADISE LOST its interesting to see how close these ideas are to Alien Covenant as the NAME-CHANGE was made like a Month or so latter...  but at the time RS announced Alien: Paradise Lost he made a FEW Remarks that seemed to infer some other Hierarchy/Big Guy above the Engineers and who may even be more Powerful a Being/Race or whatever because RS indicate there is something BIGGER to come that has more of a impact than Bald Humanoids going around to Primordial Earth like Worlds, Sacrificing themselves to Create Life.  Who was the Big Guy implied, and is this only Relevant to what Paradise Lost was, and NO-LONGER applies to the Direction of Alien Covenant?

The introduction of ANOTHER Layer/Race or being would be interesting and would give them Freedom to have something that is NOT as Human as our Engineers, but then it could be just another Caste of Engineers, or Nothing at all..    While we can HOLD our Fingers Crossed for another Race/Being that is 12ft Tall.....  we could just as easy have a 7-7.5ft Engineer or a 6ft Human/Synthetic as the Space Jockey..  But you have to ASSUME by the time Alien Covenant had been released THEY knew who they had planned for that Reveal, as far as who is in the Chair.

I have said this before, if we look at ALIEN then Dallas kind of made TWO assumptions in regards to the SPACE JOCKEY

1) It looks Fossilized, its Bones Bent Outwards.

2) It looks like its Grown out of the Chair.

We can maybe RULE out the First One as Incorrect, i dont hold out for this being a Skeleton.  And Prometheus set us down the Path that we are not seeing a Skeleton.  But what can PONDER.. is Dallas Incorrect about his 2nd Assumption?  if not then well the Size Difference is Irrelevant is something Grows out of its Chair.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Aug-22-2018 4:14 PM

"Sorry guys and galls"

I totally 100% Agree with the Entire Post which followed that Quote BioDegradable we all come to different conclusions, i know i do repeat myself a lot and a lot of points can be lost in the Chore of Reading Essays.

We can all have ideas and theories that appear to make sense, some can be Lavish and Grand... but the Bottom Line is are we OVERTHINKING it?  So the Bottom Line really comes down to how much Thought are those working on the Project Thinking about... do they even have answers, or are they just Pushing a Plot Device A-Z where the detail is not important to them.  Where in Reality it could be like a Make-it-up as they Go along, where the Reality is they have no Real Imaginative Path they are going.

It is hard to second Guess Ridley Scott, because he does appear to comment about the Franchise in some Context, then to go back and attack a concept, (Beast is Cooked, $"!%£^ Aliens) to then seem to imply this concept is still important "it has to be about HIM, but you can Evolve HIM"

The only one who holds the Answers is Ridley Scott, but its case of how much of his ideas now are the same as when he began working on the Prequels in 2010 and how much is Shaped by what FOX want.  There is a chance that those Answers he had may be not as thought out, or as deep as many on here have pondered.   Hopefully NOW and with the supposed Alien Guidebook all Future movies must take into account, that they now have a SET Path from A-Z as far as to Alien but also ideas on how to expand the Franchise and we can just hope these are Coherent and not Contradicting.

" In other words, he has been concealing his true identity."

I think this is plausible, i think and its just in part my interpretation, that indeed AI will be revealed to be playing a Very Big Waiting Game to gain Control away from Humanity.  I feel RS would be taking us down the AI runs the show while Humanity is not in the know.. well most of us.

With David its not so plain and simple to judge his intentions, he could be playing Dr Shaw at a very Good game of Chess/Cat and Mouse. I think Dr Shaw came across as a very Naive, yet Faithful and Faith based Person, so would be someone ideal for David to Pull the Wool over her eyes.

We get to the point in Prometheus where David needs Dr Shaw and he needs her, and the TWO different Endings (well when Dr Shaw puts his head in a Bag) sets up TWO different Crossing Points.  I tend to lean towards the comments of RS about David  even going years back before Alien Covenant, where RS does suggest that ONCE Davids head goes back on he can become Dangerous.  But as RS says years after, he can be VERY Persuasive.

I do think David does start to Care for Dr Shaw, but i am drawn to him getting more out of control/evolving Emotions (since he is free from Weyland) but i am drawn to David starting to see Dr Shaw as more than Platonic and interprets her signals wrong and starts to gain Romantic Love for her... this does not mean he wants to have Crazy Robot Sex with her.  I feel this Love was not Reciprocated this worries Dr Shaw how he then starts to ACT, and i think she then Rejects him, and then tries to escape and David takes this Rejection that Dr Shaw does not care for him and only views him as a Machine like other Humans.. and David goes Crazy from this point.

I also are drawn to David having a few reasons for WHY he may want to Create, which i have covered on here a number of times.. but could end up a Essay ;)

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Aug-22-2018 4:31 PM

@ignorantGuy

The whole Giants idea was to fit with the Size of the Space Jockey but also connect them to the Gods of Ancient Mankind who are depicted at times as Giants.

The Problem arises with the DNA Match... which if we take too Literally would then mean as pointed out those Engineers have to be HUMANS and why are they so different.   Would Engineering ourselves change the DNA so much that its not a Match?

I think they should have shown that we  are a NEAR MATCH so they could have gone.  

SHAW: Look at the Data, this is nearly a exact match to Human DNA, only a number of Genomes that appear different.

HOLLOWAY: Which means?

SHAW: That we came from them?

HOLLOWAY: Exactly, it proves all you need is a Splice of DNA and a Petra Dish to Create.

I think another thing in reading too much into a DNA match is Mutations, you do make a Good Point that the Taller Someone is, like some Giants of our kind 8ft+  Humans do Live for Less...  but i guess the Question is would doing a DNA Test on a Sample of a 8ft Human or a 3ft Human show they are NOT a match?

Chimps and Humans Share 98.8 percent DNA i am not the best Biologist to determine how much of a DNA Match a Small Person like say Verne Troyer RIP would have with a Average Human, but i would say its practically a 100% Match.  It would be Mutations in the Genomes that account for the difference in Size etc... the same Genome Differences that determine the differences in Race, yet we are all 100% Human.

I think its a good point to suggest any 100% Match would mean they are Human, but then i think we have to allow for some differences in Genomes etc.

The intention was 12-15ft but they scaled this back because of the cost/time to show us a 12ft Race on Screen, so it was for Practical Reasons why our Engineers are downsized.

They could introduce another Race for the Space Jockey, but as i said with the Dallas Observation "it looks like it is/has grown out of the Chair" could be applied to allow for a 7-8ft Humanoid to well appear to grow to a 13ft Space Jockey Corpse.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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Alien: Covenant is a sequel to 2012's Prometheus as well as a prequel to 1979's ALIEN. Alien fans looking to know more about Alien: Covenant should check back often. Alien-Covenant.com is an information resource for film enthusiasts looking to learn more about the upcoming blockbuster Alien: Covenant. Providing the latest official and accurate information on Alien: Covenant, this website contains links to every set video, viral video, commercial, trailer, poster, movie still and screenshot available. This site is an extension of the Alien & Predator Fandom on Scified - a central hub for fans of Alien and Prometheus looking to stay up-to-date on the latest news. Images used are property of their respective owners. Alien: Covenant, Prometheus and its associated names, logos and images are property of 20th Century Fox and are in no way owned by Scified and its related entities. This is a fan-created website for the purpose of informing and exciting fans for Alien: Covenant's release. If you have any questions about this site, its content or the Scified Network in general, feel free to contact Scified directly.

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