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prometheus opening scene

prometheus opening scene

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ali81

Jul-27-2018 12:44 AM

gna have to bare with me as it may seem like im going all over the place but in my head it makes sense.

when do we think this scene took/wouldv taken place on earth?

when I first saw the film I took the assumption that the scene took place on earth and the engineers were seeding life on earth and by that I mean life started on earth because of this sacrificial engineer. now a Cpl of things come to mind if this is the case. surely only humans would have come from this OR, this may support the theory that the black goo comes in many different forms as the engineers have found a way to program it for certain tasks. would support the different effects we see between the sacrificial engineer, Fifield and the engineers on planet 4. now scientists believe ALL life started in the sea. well theres a waterfall so checks out ok there but the mutagen would have to be tweeked. it may need a base gene for reference but has the ability to reorganise it into whatever organism suits the environment otherwise u just get humans from this scene.

is it more likely that this scene, assuming its on earth, took place after the extinction of the dinosaurs? once the earth recovers, the engineers find the planet and seed it? in this case do we just appear or does the fact the mutagen is in the water mean that indeed we did come from primates who had been drinking the contaminated water? bare in mind the mutagen is heavily diluted so this would take millennia to happen

thoughts 

148 Responses to prometheus opening scene

BigDave

Aug-06-2018 5:48 PM

@Michelle

Your reply to I Moon Girl at Aug-04-2018 10:01 PM is something i should have read before i did my reply previously, as indeed those Points are what i took out of the Movie Prometheus and where its off to.  100% Agree with that Whole reply to I Moon Girl to the point that my reply to her would have been nearly a Carbon Copy.

"who wants to create (oh really) because he is superior (by sitting in a cave on a rotting Paradise) how amazing"

Previous to AC i was always drawn to David being a Large Part in Revealing what Dr Shaws Answers would be, while she would be our Character to connect with as far as the Horror of finding out what she hopes for is not what she gets, and boy it would have been interesting to see how REVELATIONS affect her Character, the what would then happen to Naive Faithful Dr Shaw would her Character changed into potentially could have been EPIC.

But i felt the Sequel would have been showing us WHAT makes Creation and WHY and it would reflect back to showing David continue to do the same.  I feel David finding out what they do about Creation and the Engineers and their creators would have lead to him realize these Mortal Beings are Seen as Gods, as his Creator saw himself by VIRTUE of being Creators.  I think David would have seen himself as Superior and Felt that its his Destiny to Create/Show those Creators HOW to Create more Perfectly.   I wonder if the reveal would have shown our creation was for similar reasons to Davids, and then the Engineers similar to why we was created, and i think at this point finding out WHERE and with WHO would have been interesting, the whole HOW MANY Layers of Creation are there above us and is every Reason for Creation/Sub Creation similar, or at some point was the Reasons Different.

When Alien Covenant came out, from Davids interaction with Weyland and Walter, the Flute Scene, the Ozymandias scene, i felt all seemed to be going the route that i had been led to from Davids Arc from Prometheus.  Especially after RS started to tease about a Sequel in 2013.

I felt that Legacy played a Key Role, especially regarding Why David was Created and Mankind.   But its always interesting to ask WHY is there Creation in context to our GOD Mythos and Mankind.

There are many reasons throughout various Mythos/Religions and it would have been interesting to see which APPLY to where Ridley Scott was taking us...   As these could apply to WHY David was Created, WHY Mankind was, and WHY the Engineers were too.

I feel we was not going to be shown we was Created because THEY COULD as Holloways Proposed to David as far as WHY he was created.

I dont think it would have gone the Christian Faith, God Created Man to be Loved and his Pride and Joy. But maybe this route could have been WHY one Chain in the many Layers of Creation was Created.

Otherwise we do have these Reasons which appear in many Civilizations.

*Companionship. Because the Creator was Alone.

*Worship. so the Creator has someone to Praise/Respect them.

*Legacy so the Creator is Remembered, Revered by someone that can pass on their Legacy Acknowledgment of who and how great the Creator is.

*Replacement (Pursuit of Perfection) for previous Rebellious/Flawed Creation.

*Service.  To serve and perform functions/tasks and Chores.

*Ally Contingent.  To aid them to oppose/overthrow arch rivals.

*Some other Benefit to the Creator of Great Importance for their own Personal Ego, or Benefit to their Future.

There are other Reasons for Creation in Various Mythos but these do seem to crop up a lot, and NOT every Mythos/Faith has all of these but they do have some of these.

It would have been interesting to see which of these applied to Mankind and the Engineers Creation.  We have a better Picture of WHY David was Created, and i think as he becomes Sentient and realizes he is more Perfect/Superior to Humans and Engineers, then the REAL Reasons he was Created would no doubt offend/disappoint him.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Aug-06-2018 6:02 PM

"A:C, to me, is different than other movies in the franchise because we get more of a philosophical and musing approach that seems to drive the basis of the story"
 

AND

"I think it's a good decision to make the movies in a large franchise different is some ways because ALIEN would never work as a franchise if the same things just get repeated over and over again"

There was a continuation of the Philosophy that Prometheus had began, it was more in context to David/Weyland but then it could be a hint at why we was created by the Engineers too.  I think Alien Covenant had to cover a bit of this Philosophy that Prometheus had, because it was a sequel to Prometheus, and in part if there was NO Philosophical Connections/Continuations then it may have disappointed Prometheus Fans.   I feel Prometheus 2 would have covered more Philosophical Connections in relation to David, Mankind and the Engineers.  And would have been a more Thought Provoking movie.

But indeed it appears FOX felt that leaving the Xenomorph out was a mistake and that the Purpose of the Prequels should have been to concentrate more on the Xenomorph Origins.

A lot of the Xenomorph/Alieny connections were Tacked on, as it appeared Alien Covenant was a attempt to give Prometheus, Alien, Alien 3 and Aliens Fans a little something, maybe a bit of Alien Resurrection too.  But it appeared to try and Appease Many but Delivered not enough to Appease Any... not to a Satisfying Degree.

This in PART is due to the Limited Run-Time... if Alien Covenant was 3 hours then they could have spent more time on pleasing every kind of Fan to do a bit more Justice.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

MonsterZero

Aug-06-2018 6:19 PM

Would Prometheus have worked IF the opening waterfall sequence was cut? 

Just start the movie with the cave and the paintings?

Engineers remain a mystery...Just some creepy alien race. NOT dealing with creating worlds...But creating monsters and cult sacrifices.

Engineer scenes remain intact except the opening one.

OR

Instead of a serene waterfall start to the movie, have the Engineer giving 'birth' to a monster/xeno.

 

BigDave

Aug-07-2018 4:45 AM

I think thats a Good Question...

Removing this would just bring us to the Ancient Alien Theory where all we can Digest is that Ancient Beings from the Stars Created us, (various theories) which connect to various creation Myths.

Upon discovering the Human like Engineers and the DNA Match we would conclude we came from them but it would be more VAGUE as to HOW we was created with the Removal of the Sacrificial Scene.

We would be more inclined to see the Black Goo as a Biological Warfare created purely to destroy us, where then the "sometimes to create one must first destroy" comment by David would have lead us to conclude the Engineers grew Fed up of us, and Felt the Deacon DNA they are Perfecting is what they will unleash on Earth. To Mutate us. (This in Part could be what was going on).

I still think the Sacrificial Scene was Important, but maybe it needed to be placed at a different part of the Movie, like some of the Fan-Edits had done.

Regarding the Birth of the Xenomorph, Alien Covenant gives some clues when we look at the Prometheus Cryo-Pod Engineers, that the Black Goo maybe can create Parasites inside that BURST out of the Engineers.  But the sight of Hollow Engineer Suits, and the Exploding Head, Ebola References and Sacrificial Scene lead me to those Engineers breaking down...  and Pondering that the Chest Busted Engineers are from a Organism infected with the Goo (Hammerpedes maybe).  But with Alien Covenant it could be that some Engineers did not break down, but some Parasites Grew and Burst out of some of them.

"Engineers remain a mystery...Just some creepy alien race. NOT dealing with creating worlds...But creating monsters and cult sacrifices."

Maybe in Hindsight yes... but it could still reveal that this was the Purpose, that the Engineers worked for some other Race/Machine etc and they created us to replace them or they rebelled and Mankind was created to replace their purpose..

A War Between Engineers and these beings/machines could lead to the Engineers Winning and maybe then trying to decide what to do with Mankind...  Then with their GODS gone... they could assume the role of GODs to us...  This is just one possible route to go.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

MonsterZero

Aug-07-2018 6:06 AM

Hmm...I'll check out the fan edits...

 

Also making the Engineers villains would have made David a hero when he exterminating them in A:C!

"Thank you David! The Engineers have been a scourge on the galaxy for Eons.." 

Ingeniero

Aug-07-2018 6:48 AM

I am still leaning toward that Planet 4 is shown in the beginning of Prometheus. 

The Beginning of Prometheus 

The Beginning of Alien: Covenant

David opening his eyes to Planet 4 would add depth to me because it would imply what Peter Weyland knew and when in regards to the Engineers and their gifts.

Michelle Johnston

Aug-07-2018 10:57 AM

@BigDave feel we was not going to be shown we was Created because THEY COULD as Holloways Proposed to David as far as WHYhe was created.

The phrase is a truism. If the tear drop occupants rocked up and you asked them they would be able to say the same thing. There is subtext here Charlie is drunk what he is getting at and why David's look is full of repressed anger is because what Charlie is saying is we made you because we could For us not you it was for our vain glorious desire and thats not projecting listen to the Ted Talk we are the gods now. David who knows the truth about the planetoid always has been a head of the curve and by now has his answers then offers it to the audience would it not be disappointing if you found you had been made because you creators could For them not you. Saying because we could is a non reply unless your inference is for us not you and interpreting Charlie' reply in the context of the Ted Talk fits that.

If this story really is Promethean someone stole something from someone and used it without the blessing of those whom its power resides with. For the Engineers of the planetoid to treat the creation of mankind as a petri dish who turn up and show primitive man how clever they are makes sense. The only other option is they did within the grace of the teardrop occupants but fell afterwards. But three things are certain the created us, they wished to destroy us at the time of christ and they were eviscerated and no one has checked us out since, that might be important. Maybe "they" do not care or they got happy.      

BigDave

Aug-07-2018 3:34 PM

"because what Charlie is saying is we made you because we could For us not you "

Certainly and i agree with the whole of your reply, i think it was here or somewhere else the other day i gave reasons for WHY a Creator would Create Life.   My point about the Holloway saying to David because we could, was because while i agree with your point, which i will elaborate on in a bit.  I think it was more than just ONE reason.

The "we made you because we could For us not you" fits some of the reasons for Creation i mentioned, in that one reason could be for some Purpose for the Benefit of the Creator, which means not for the Good or Benefit of the Creation.

When looking at David there could be a number of those Reasons, for Weyland it would be a Crowning Mark of Achievement a Legacy for him a Symbol much like Ancient Pharaohs had Monuments Constructed in their Image/Honor.   But then we see also David could have been Created as a Companion to Weyland but also as a Personal Servant.   If Synthetics became a Reality then Companionship and to Serve and be used as Labor/Workforce would be TWO common uses.

These 3 things we can get the picture of with David, but then we could ponder other reasons too, like i am wondering (just a personal idea) if Weyland Created him for another Reason of Benefit to Weyland.. Which is that IF Weyland can created a Synthetic that would not Die/Age like a Human but looks like a Human, and then he can Master Uploading Weylands Memories, Experiences and Emotions (Soul) to a AI Program then Upload that to a Synthetic then to a degree Weyland has got his WISH.. Prolonged Life.  I feel this as a Motive fits Weylands Personality and Character, but thats not to say this is a reason for Creating David.

So while we can look at WHY David was created and draw conclusions, we are left with WHY Mankind was created, which we have less Basis to form any Fact on, and is more open to interpretation and theories.  And i think one of the BIG Reveals for a Prometheus 2 would have addressed this, which we can then had seen Dr Shaws Reaction.

Was Mankind Created for the reasons as David? I think maybe some, but its one of those Questions we all hoped would be answered.  I also wonder if the LV-223 Engineers are Created for the same reasons as David?  One thing the supposed Source Mentioned was David is more in common with the Engineers than Mankind.  And 18 months latter when AC came out and i saw those Engineers on Planet 4 and then RS comments it got me thinking those LV-223 guys could be to Engineers on Planet 4 what Replicants are to Humans in Blade Runner, and if we look at this in context to Gods, then this could reflect the Planet 4 Engineers as Gods, Annunaki and LV-223 as the Angels, Iggi and so this would fit with those LV-223 Engineers being Fallen if they Perverted the intention/purpose of the Creation Tool/Gift but this is just ONE theory and the Beauty of Prometheus was it allows for many theories.  So i think Ridley Scott and Lindeloff have to take some Credit for that, despite it being something some fans disliked (lack of Answers and Answers that Raised more Questions) but its this that allows for the Many Debates/Discussions on sites like this ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Aug-07-2018 3:52 PM

I also think one of the other Mysteries are about the Agenda of the Engineers, because the Sacrificial Scene seemed Important, the Reason is something interesting to Ponder.   If it was to Destroy us Thousands of years after (Millions maybe) then its a Big Investment of Time.

Discovering what the intention/purpose for Mankind is interesting, and we have to wonder if it reflects certain Mythos and Religion.  I think Prometheus maybe hinted to us that Mythos could apply to the Engineers, certainly those on LV-223 at some point in Time, but it could also apply to Weyland too.  So we can Ponder if Mankind was NOT supposed to be more than Cave Dwellers and some Engineers took it upon themselves to Gift us Knowledge that we was not Permitted.

We could imagine similar with the Walter Models if say they Turned up and Dr Shaw was alive but lost her DAVID, and then seeing Dr Shaw influence and alter those Walter Androids to become Sentient and Free like David..  Then in the Context to the Mythos Dr Shaw would be performing the role of Prometheus to a degree, or Lucifer if we look at the Biblical/Paradise Lost account.

So its interesting to Ponder if Certain themes are Repeated, on Multiple Levels.   I just dont think when Ridley Scott called the Engineers Fallen Angels he refers to them ALL and in context of Fallen = Demons =Evil/Wicked and Cruel.   I think Fallen Context could be to Rise Up against the Limited Purpose they had, or doing things against the Wishes of their Creators/Hierarchy or/and interfering and passing on Knowledge that was Forbidden.  Or they themselves obtaining this Forbidden Knowledge... But sure as Part of this they could be Cruel/Wicked too.

I think asking IF they are Evil/Wicked (Not Benevolent)  we have to ask in Context to Who?   The Slavery Trade would be consider Malevolent to the Slaves but not to those who Started/Used the Slave Trade.   The Slaughter of animals for Food is not Benevolent towards those Animals but most of us dont see it as a Wicked Act... these are Life-Forms that are Insuperior and Insignificant to us, and we think only about the Benefit it is to us..   So i do think maybe the Engineers could see us, just as we would a Lesser Organism on Earth.

So they could be a Grey Area as far as Wicked/Cruel or not.  The Sacrificial Scene Ridley Scott said was a Benevolent Act, the Space Jockey he had before mentioned in similar context... but these Acts could be Benevolent to their own kind ALONE.

So there is again so so much stuff we could have done with our Engineers, as far as Agenda and Background which we maybe wont cover much now.

The whole Space Jesus Aspect i take as RS explained it, he was a Emissary that was sent down, that we interpreted as Divine.  And i ponder if they had sent others and even more than ONE and IF others on other Continents that had more Ritual/Ancient as less Corrupt ways of living and so they lived more in Harmony with their Emissaries hence the Later than 2000 years ago Star Maps.. Thats how i see it, but thats just a theory.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

MonsterZero

Aug-07-2018 5:05 PM

"it was for our vain glorious desire.."

Is David vain or is that his programming ?

I wonder how difficult it was for David....having to cut his beautiful hair....sever his hand...scar his precious face......Is this humanities true crime?

I always thought this would be tough for a human...to replicate such a switcheroo ....But for a synth? Piece of cake!....EXCEPT were're talking narcissistic David.

Thoughts_Dreams

Aug-08-2018 4:29 AM

“4. Xenomorph killed by ejecting it into space A1, A2, A4, AC.“ - iG

That is something that Alien 3 avoided and that Prometheus didn’t, which is something that these two movies did right. Hopefully they will not do this in the next movie if there will be one. There are more things that you can do to it to finish the movie, they just need to think a little.

MonsterZero:

There are different ways that they could end him:

1. They could be in a cave and the cave could collapse
2. They could kill him with some interesting gun
3. If he is strong there could be someone getting up at him from behind and someone at the front so they take him out both at the same time
4. He could be killed by his creation/monster, but that to me is too predictable so I really would not like that

Maybe these are lame ideas but at least they are not the airlock thing.

MonsterZero

Aug-08-2018 5:39 AM

"1. They could be in a cave and the cave could collapse"

That's actually cool.....An archaeological team could dig him up in a thousand years.

3116

"We've found something!....appears humanoid....A synth...a synthetic being from the 22nd century!!"

"bring him aboard the ship..."

"Quarantine sir?"

"...No...We should be safe..."

 

chli

Aug-08-2018 1:58 PM

Well, as I see it there are scientific and logical problems in the opening scene.

The Engineer DNA-string breaks apart due to the mutagen which would mean that the sacrificial engineer starts life on Earth (giving the building blocks) not giving “birth” to man (like the panspermia hypothesis). In that case, this would be billions of years ago starting with unicellular to multicellular organisms.

On the other hand, DNA-samples from the engineer head matches that of man which would suggest that the sacrificial engineer in the opening scene gives his DNA to Earth and thereby giving rise to man which would then be very late in the evolution (a few million years ago).

Anyway, the story being told in Prometheus is that the engineers created us and visited us (and taught us things) first in the stone age 35.000 years ago and then the Sumerian, the Egyptian and the Mayan cultures. But that changed (because of what man had become) and they wanted to eradicate us. The question that Shaw needs an answer to is why?

Some major themes are creation - and disappointment. The engineers became disappointed in their creation just as man (the Prometheus crew) became disappointed in their creators and just as David is disappointed in his creator (Sir Peter Weyland/man). Part of this theme is also that children are disappointed in their parents (“doesn’t everyone want their parents dead”) as we see in the hateful relationship between Miss Vickers and Sir Peter Weyland.

So, creation and the relationship between creator and the created become central like in a fable or a morality play. This is also science fiction so we will not likely find scientific truths in them. It’s more figurative.

BigDave

Aug-09-2018 7:49 AM

Certainly Chli that ONE of the Main Themes Prometheus and RS was trying to explore ;)   It was in part Disappointment, but also Fear of what your Creation could become when Sentient/Rebellious but then also about how once a Creation is given so much Knowledge/Freewill they may no longer see their Creators as Superior.

I think Potentially when we are looking at WHY we was created, and maybe WHY the Engineers were too, that the Answers may have been in Prometheus all along, in terms of DAVID.  But we have yet to really be Spoon Fed any answers on FILM... The only Clues on Film that are not so ambiguous/unanswered are in regards to Davids Creation.

*Because we could (Holloway's reply to David) which in part is True, but also part of this is also to offend David, because Holloway sees him as just a Robot, that Mankind Created because well we COULD.  But there would be some other reasons too, but its a interesting Question to wonder if WE and the Engineers were kind of Created because (The Creators Could)

*Legacy/Ego  (Weylands view on David)  Weyland is a very Arrogant Scientist, one of the best the World has ever seen, creating David is such a Achievement that Elevates Weyland into HISTORY where he has Achieved what NO one had before... Artificial Life, Virtually Indistinguishable from ourselves  and Superior in Many ways, and so to Weyland this Legacy/Achievement  has shown that HE can Create a Man (Synthetic) in his Own Image (Man) and so he has achieved what the Gods had done, he may even feel he has created Superior to what the Gods have done.   And again there is the Potential that similar reasons was for OUR and the Engineers Creations.

But we just dont get the Reason for either of those On Film, we get the impression we are created BY or FROM the Engineers, we get the Impression those LV-223 Engineers are FROM or BY those Planet 4 Engineers or Vice Versa (But RS implies they are From)

The Ideas/Drafts that came from Jon Spaights did kind of give a indication, which was that these Engineers had lost the Ability to Procreate at some point, and so they had to use the Sacrificial Method to Seed Worlds... which kind of leans towards this was Necessary to Repopulate their Genetic Stock as Sexual Procreation was Lost.  The Question would be such a Advanced Race could surely CLONE but i guess constant Cloning Leads to Problems.

However as this is a Draft/Concept Idea and on FILM its Specifically Spoon Fed this is the reason for our Creation we CAN-NOT take this reason as WHY they created us.  Then we have Alien: Covenant were we see those Engineers have Females and Infants and so can PROCREATE so WHY do they Seed Worlds becomes NOW a even more Bigger Question.  But AC does not Spoon Feed us Answers so that we can see these Engineers are Engineers, they look more Human, and so it was open that they could be another version, or even the Results/Reasons for the Sacrificial Scene....  which applies to Spaights Plot of losing the ability to Procreate, and the whole Process of the Sacrificial Scene could be thought of to GIVE them that Genetic Pool of Engineers on Planet 4.

HOWEVER.... Ridley Scott gives us some Answers that again Raise Questions to WHY we was created all over again.... because he had stated those Planet 4 Engineers are the ORIGINALS he also states that just as there are many different versions of Mankind, why cant the same be said about the Engineers, and also he mentions they are NOT a Race but a CIVILIZATION and these are Big Revelations.  Which opens up the Seeding/Sacrificial Route would indeed be done on many worlds to Create some Diversity in Humanoids and leave it open for some of them to taken to Planet 4, but this maybe contradicts them being the ORIGINALS so what it likely means is the Engineers are Ancient and they do as Humans, Vary a bit in Size/Appearance (not as much as Humans).  But another thing that kind of conflicts that and opens up Debate is the  "they are not a Race" comment which implies they could be a mixture of various Humanoid Species.

But again its IF we take RS comments as Fact, and he can have a habit of changing his mind, and also the PLOT can U-Turn as Movie after Movie comes out... because well DAVID Did-Not Create the Xenomorph at the time of the Plot to/after Prometheus.. but this changed a few years after.  So just because RS says ONE thing to clear up a subject, this can change just as when he had told us ABOUT the Space Jockey Event (not Fully) but sure as HELL gives us the Right Path (Engineer, connected to LV-223 Outbreak some few hundred years after/prior to the LV-223 Outbreak 2000 years ago) as this is maybe no longer CANON.... we dont know how to take is comments on the Planet 4 Engineers or LV-223 ones as everything can be CHANGED.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Aug-09-2018 1:26 PM

@chli & BigDave

I think if you want to discuss Prometheus in terms of what it might have meant the first place to do it is from the point of 2012. 

You then have decide three things :-

1) What was the story it was sitting in.

2) What are the strategic themes.

3) What are the functioning outcomes of the characters.  

To Give an Example from each one. 

1) The teardrop ship, amongst others things, was involved in consensual noble sacrifice to kick start life whereas the planetoid was involved in creating a mutagen to create replacement life which was anything but consensual. 

2) Sacrifice it existed in both elements that we have been made aware of. 

3) In order to get Weyland into the narrative as quickly as possible and contextualised we needed to see the three way exchange between surrogate son, daughter and father. The big scene would turn on him and Charlize helped give him emotional context. However both a robot and a human being did not like Weyland so I see that as transactional.

I seee no evidence in Prometheus of the following :-

1) That David wanted to create. 

2) That David was a sexualised human being.

3) That the Engineers were barren.

4) That the Engineers were frightened of mankind.

One theme I did see is that the Engineers, Prometheus and Weyland all stole/meddled sub created and .... happened.

I also noticed :-

a) That Fifield was a coward and mentally week.

b) Milburn was promiscuous.

c) Elizabeth could not have children.

The mutagen resolved all those issues "but be careful of what you wish for"

As Elizabeth is our proxy what we think about the Engineers should be driven by whats she thinks about them and all she knows is that star maps were not invitations (we were so wrong) and they wanted to eradicate us for reasons unknown until the next film. She hasn't lost her faith at this point in the story and its correct to assume that she feels she has come to the wrong place not that the answers are not what she expected.

Another theme of the story is that all of the Promethean elements are dead at the end of the movie and the one creation that might live will rely on the one person of faith the only survivor.   

What I think it is very easy to do with Prometheus is confuse transactional character moments with themes. The best example of a transaction is the Engineer surviving so the Deacon gets born and has no story or thematic point at all because its a riff for the end of the movie.   

BigDave

Aug-09-2018 4:14 PM

Indeed a lot of Parts to Prometheus were just Necessary to drive the Plot Points, the Deacon being the Link (Closest) to the Xenomorph DNA, i think the Engineer played a minor role to show us they was preparing the Ship for a Mission, and i think his exchanges with David was needed so that David could then gain some information that is passed on to Dr Shaw.  (Where THEY came from).

I think it depends how we look at Prometheus, its a movie that allows us to use our Brain and Imagination, if we look at it for only SPOON FED clues/answers it does not Deliver a lot, so a lot is speculation as far as how we look at the movie and interpret it.

Looking at DAVID indeed as you pointed out, we get no real indication that he is a Sexually Frustrated/Confused ROBOT all we see is that David was some kind of Pinocchio he was a Machine but he had  at times a sense of adventure and intrigue about him and his likes (Lawrence of Arabia)  and we get the Picture that he is not really happy/impressed with how he is viewed/treated by Humans.

So the END of the Movie we see that David is NOW Free of the Restraints of Weyland, and that he potentially could see something in Dr Shaw that he did not see in many Humans... due to how she treated him, but how she was a Survivor and Still has Faith after all she has Found Out.

Indeed we dont really get any indication of David wanting to go and do the things he does in Alien Covenant or become a God and Creator but we also dont get any indication that David would Love Dr Shaw, only that he has seen she is different to many Humans, her Faith, Kindness in Spite of what she had been through.. so she may have seen a Forgiving Person.. and there are signs that David may come to see that she maybe would TREAT him more than a Machine.

Off Course the Alternative Scene paints a different Dr Shaw towards him.  What we can gather from David is that it seems he wants to LIVE and not just be left to ROT, he is Free and can now Pursue other Adventures and Likes, and he may be Fascinated by the Engineers their History/Culture while also being Fascinated by Dr Shaws Resolve/Faith and so i think he would in part be interested to finding out some of those Questions Dr Shaw wants..

But looking into David and his view towards others, i felt that he wanted to be a Survivor and Ultimately now FREE he would want to Protect himself and Peruse his own Ambitions.

The whole themes we see at Play do tend to lend to Rebellion against Creator/Father.  Which Prometheus fits with, but so does Lucifer too. And so i think a similar Arc appeared to be the Intention.. even though it was not clearly Painted this way in Prometheus.

We also had no Proof to say the Engineers could/could not Procreate, or that there Was/Was not Females, it was open for debate as there was a lot of Mystery regarding the Engineers that a Sequel could have Answered and to a Degree has. (Alien Covenant) so while at the Origin of Concept it was given the Engineers Lost the Ability to Procreate, there is NOTHING to back this up in the Movie.  So its down to speculation, which a lot of things are with such a Ambiguous Movie.  Ridley Scott had said during the release/after of Prometheus that the Engineers Can Create in other ways but the Sacrificial Way was just HOW they choose to do so...  again ambiguous because that can mean they could CLONE or indeed they could PROCREATE and so again these are things that would have been interesting to find out, and Alien Covenant in Part Answers these.

I think a lot is still up for debate, which is the great thing about the Movie... Alien Covenant and the Advent does throw some Clues that may have us have to take a different look at Prometheus.

But i am not so sure (due to some contradictions/flaws) that these beings just Decide for what ever Reason to come and Seed Life on Earth, that takes a LONG time to get to Humans, then Interact with us while showing us Maps to a Death Camp for us for 33'000 years before at the Time they Decide to Use this Bio-Weapon on us they then LOST control of it. ... and then decided to Forget about it all.  some think this means we was CREATED to be used Purely to become NEOMORPHS and the Like.... but i kind of think there is more to it than that, and that the Space Gardeners Part is more interesting than a Race Who Create US and this MUTAGEN to just Create Xenomorph Related Organisms.. it cant be ruled out...

But it makes LITTLE sense for all that Effort, especially for why we are then Visited and Taught Knowledge... WHY not just keep us as Cavemen and come and TAKE us to Experiment on...

BUT then.... another way to look at Genetic Space Gardeners is like Farmers, in which case are we a HARVEST? some think so but i felt the WHOLE Plot around Ancient Aliens/Chariots of the Gods has more Scope than just that..

BUT.... if this was the Purpose.. (Created to be Hosts) then it makes the PROMETHEUS Mythos apply, if a Faction of Engineers decided to see more to us than to be used as MEAT-BAGS and so some may have then decided to Teach us Knowledge etc and began to Care for us, well to Interact with us, maybe even in return to be WORSHIPED.  And doing this was against the Reasons for our Creation  and so when their Hierarchy Found out this would constitute to Fall like Prometheus and Lucifer, their Actions allowed Mankind to have Knowledge and a Outlook that was not intended... and THUS these Meddling Engineers could be Punished for this.

The Wonder of Prometheus is the amount of Theories that can be applied.  There was plenty of Scope with finding out what Dr Shaw could have IF she was allowed to Survive and MEET these beings.

Regarding Fear... i think it depends on how you look at Fear, Fear does not always have to be Faced with a Horrific Encounter..it could be the Concern of a Potential Mishap/Error and Hubris.   There is no real Proof those Engineers Feared us...  but i think they was Concerned at WHAT we could become if we are left to continue our ways...

And indeed Thousands of Years latter look at what we have become, certainly more of a Threat than Ancient Med-Evil Mankind...  Ridley Scott did say once the Engineers Produced the Bio-Weapon as Protection against Rebellious Creations.  There are many similar Themes at play, that could allow us to look at what the Creation of David and the Free-Will compared to Walter that he has, and what the IMPLICATIONS are for Mankind.

Ridley Scott has said he feels AI could be the biggest threat to Mankind and Steven Hawking RIP had felt the same... Once that Genie is out the Bottle what happens?  And i think with David we are seeing what happens... The Engineers must have worried about the same of their Creations, maybe because they had done the same with their Creators? (Fits with the Greek Mythos).  And so they had taken a Precaution maybe in the Bio-Weapons Development... but at a Huge Cost.   I think finding out HOW/WHY those Engineers could not contain their Bio-Weapon is interesting... if they was making this from DAY-ONE then for over 30'000 years did they have any Outbreaks? Was the Last One the Last Straw before the Abandoned it due to the Risk... or was something responsible?  Or was it only the First Time a Accident Happened?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Aug-10-2018 3:59 AM

BigDave

Yes, but FEAR of the creation is derived from how it’s been treated. Frankenstein’s “monster” becomes dangerous because man (and “Father”) treats it badly. Then, it becomes rebellious and dangerous. David becomes dangerous because he’s treated badly (by Sir Peter Weyland, Holloway etc). A horse is powerful and can be dangerous but “Breath on the nostrils of a horse and he’ll be yours for life”. David falls in love with Shaw because he’s “never known such kindness, certainly not from Mr Weyland” (Also, neither David nor Shaw can create children so they are therefore similar). Knowledge, free will and superiority is dangerous only if the synthetic chooses to be “bad”. Technology is in itself not dangerous but can be dangerous if used in the wrong way.

However, I don’t see Sir Peter Weyland as a one-dimensional character (only bad). When David asks him: “If you created me, who created you?”. He answers: “The question of the ages which I hope you and I will answer one day”. So, in part, he sees David as the son he never had but when he is “offended” when David points out that “fathers” die one day (David will not), Sir Peter establishes the power relation between them. David’s purpose is to obey and serve (which was a quite common power relationship between parents and children only a few generations ago). Many children come into this world just because their parents could, by the way, but I agree about Sir Peter’s arrogance, seeing himself as a god and creator.

When it comes to the engineers it would seem that their home planet is/was Planet 4 and that is why David wipes them out, perhaps, partly, as a test since he also wants to wipe out the human race. I’m not sure about the hypothesis that the engineers are barren, though, since there seem to be women on Planet 4 as well. Surely, with their amount of knowledge in biotechnology they would have solved that problem?

Michelle Johnston

The context (which we get in the opening scene) is that of creation (of life). I wonder how important the theme of sacrifice really is? Perhaps it’s more of a religious interpretation from the viewers? What other examples of sacrifice do we have in Prometheus (except maybe for the mural of some kind of xenomorph in, perhaps, a crucified posture)? Holloway answers David that he is prepared to do “anything and everything” and he is, in fact, sacrificed (but unknowingly). Well, we have Janek, of course . . .

As I see it, David is, to his own disappointment, very well aware of not being able to create as humans can (although not Shaw). But he can, and does, create in the only way he can - by using the mutagen on Holloway: “Sometimes to create, one must first destroy”.

Michelle Johnston

Aug-10-2018 3:31 PM

@chli

Sacrifice 

In order to catalyse the galaxy it requires two parts :-

The Catalyser.

The Vessel. 

Both are crucial to creation. To argue its simply to do with the viewers perception when the chant to the acolyte off screen is "Let your body become the dirt, your blood become the waters and may your soul become the way back to us." suggest he is mighty important. 

If thats not persuasive enough then this mighty craft arrives and leaves before the acolyte has ingested giving complete discretion to the acolyte to kick start/ speed up life. Just pop it into the depths chum and join the Icelandic Hockey team instead.

Sacrifice 

Charlie, Janet, Chance, Ravel the noble sacrifice. ALL of them riff the ultimate sacrifice. 

Sacrifice is at the heart of this mythos and its ultimate perversion the non consensual sacrifice of the host to spawn the Alien. It  is the perfect emblem for travelling to Paradise from consensual sacrifice with merely a promise of coming back to the fold and the appalling non consensual sacrifice of Paradise Lost.

There is not one single line, inflection, thread of evidence in the narrative that David is disappointed he cannot create. His facial expression when Weyland mentions the one thing he lacks is soul is very telling just as when Charlie says "because we can". Charlie does not taunt him with "because you cannot"

Sometimes to create, one first must destroy is a response is an explanation as to what the Engineers intentions nothing to do with him.

His use of the mutagen in the phial is a direct response to Weyland's request to try harder there is no evidence that he believes this is his surrogate sperm and he has absolutely no idea of the down stream consequences which lead to Charlie sperm impregnating Elizabeth.      

People on this forum will speculate in the most fantastic way getting away from the text of the movie but I never read any one interpreting back in 2012 that one of the themes was Davids impotence. The last time I looked man needs a sexual narrative in order to create David has no such thing. 

Oh and one more thing if he wanted to create but couldn't then this would have been communicated to the audience by Weyland as a distinction and used with devastating effect by Meredith to taunt him. 

Of course all this changes for A L I E N : C o v e n a n t where he is a rapist, where he will use the one woman he loves body parts to create in a cave because he wants to stop mankind from colonising the galaxy. 

Memo to David 

Next time you have a craft full of urns just make a course correction once Liz is asleep and head back for earth. 

Its always a pleasure to completely disagree with you.

BioDegradable

Aug-10-2018 5:46 PM

I never took the original gang of seeders as gods. And I think this might be the issue and source of annoyance and frustration for me that actually makes me stuck in this Alien world. It just doesn't stay consistent. And the amount of resources and effort poured into these movies makes me think that they (Ridley and all ) surely couldn't leave such voids, which reinforces my blind belief and hope that I will get gratification if I consistently "sort this out" for myself. So help me guys and gals, pretty please with the following:

 

Are those old looking fellows from the seeding scene(I see that since it is taken for granted what they say, where they are trying to encourage the younger seeder, we are to presume that the sequence is in fact canon) really gods though? Can these fellows take credit for creating space out of nowhere? If they are these sort of creators then they are quite sadistic bunch of people, to say the least. Certainly, Christopher Hitchens would have agreed with this point. And, if they are creators, who among them is the creator of the others anyway?

See, seeding/sacrifice means a decrement of the population of the original specie by one. If they seed, withouth replenishment, they will die out eventually. But where do they come from anyway? Can somebody furnish a half decent explanation for this? I mean in the alien universe of course.

Another thing about them, if they are this mighty fellows, why do they not intervene when things get extremely ugly? For instance, when Dave cleans the storage bay of the ship at the expense of some unsuspecting habitants of a distant planet? Was it their plan? If it was not their plan, they are still OK with what Dave did, huh? Do they have a plan? Did they foresee the creation of the ultimate bad ass - the ugly beast with tubes on his back? Do they have no sympathy? Where are they anyway? Did they die out? Where do they live? What if Dave decides to pay them a visit at their place? Do they age? You see if they are immortal, and they created all the space from nothing, all these planets, all the matter, why the sacrifice? For whom? For what? To create some worms? You, allmighty, having created all the universe from scratch (not even a single galaxy, but the whole lot of it) why can't you create a simple thing from the matter you created withouth this sacrifice?

If they age and die, what sort of gods are they? Tell me, how are they different to drosophila flies then? They die out as a consequence of rules of the world they created. Which is bizarre. Say, after the first "creator" dies, can't the others change the course? If they age, why they had a young guy take his life while they cowardly sit it out? Where is the moral in that? Is it because, the younger the specimen the better he is, for seeding purposes anyway? So, with age, they get worse not better? The sacrifice they carry out... doesn't it not look similar to what ultra radical jihadi do when they convince others to bring good by making their body become dirt and ... and in a such a way make their souls travel to a better place? If they are not the same species....did they create species specifically for sacrifiction? Is this not sick?

I am amazed at how people can pick up different metaphors from the story, but at the same time can brush aside these, annoying "technicalities", their interpretation ultimately necessitates. I kind of see the big picture(it is actually really easy - just randomly watch 5 to 10 minutes in total of the footage from different parts of the movie and summarize) but these glaring wholes just frustrate me - I can't quite make the jump into the fantasy world and suspend the disbelief. How do you come to terms with these questions? Does it make sense? Does it have to make sense?

 

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

chli

Aug-11-2018 1:40 AM

Michelle Johnston

First of all, I want to say that I’m very glad I’ve become acquainted with you through this forum. You’re a hell of an analyzer and linguistic equilibrist.

That being said, I wonder about the chant argument. Isn’t that proof of  “beauty is in the eye of the beholder”? I also wonder about the Icelandic hockey team - Sweden is very good at it.

Also, I’m not sure that you need a catalyser and vessel (or do you mean the premise in the movie?). Perhaps you need only laws of nature - or God (how did he/she/it come into being?).

Well, perhaps you’re right. It’s a beautiful harmony that the movie begins and ends with sacrifice: In the beginning to give life, and in the end to preserve it.

If David is not disappointed in not being human, do you mean that he is proud of being a synthetic? Is Frankenstein proud of being a “monster”? Isn’t the urge of proving that you are better than everyone else, in fact, a response to that you feel lesser?

“Sometimes to create, one must first destroy” is directed towards the engineers but the quote must have been stored somewhere within his circuits, that is, a part of his personality?

I’m also not sure that his use of the mutagen on Holloway is a response to Sir Peter Weyland’s request to “Try harder”. What does “Try harder” mean? Are you sure he’s telling the truth, and what does he mean by it when he says this to Miss Vickers as she nails him to the wall?

David is clearly mocking Holloway when he asks him what he’s prepared to do. David knows it’s Holloway’s death sentence. David is curious about the effects (how will it change Holloway) and wants freedom (away from his “father”). He wants his “parents” dead as well as all of humanity. He sees himself as a monster (including impotence) and all of this leads logically to what he becomes in Alien Covenant.

One more thing: Yes, we always interpret the past through the spectacles of the present.

BioDegradable

Aug-11-2018 2:40 AM

I will self allow to butt in.

David is clealry superior to any human, in many ways so. Recall the brilliant sequence in the beginning of AC, where David in a minute or so displays his superiority.

He walks perfect, he looks perfect, he plays perfect, he has excellent taste in music, he gets to pick his own name and of course he is pretty smart. Weyland says he is perfect. He quickly asks "am I". David was always a step ahead of Weyland - he asked if he was his son, Weyland thought he was asking if he was perfect. David knew he was perfect, or rather he knew perfectly well that he was rather not perfect - it takes much more rationality to know your own limitations, but he is much much more perfect than any human. Anyway, for him this is not a meaningful question. Besides, you recall how the sequence plays out: "you seek your creator, I am looking at mine, you will die, I will not". All of which is true. And he gets to see immediately how sick people are. Weyland immediately went ahead and displayed his insecurity by "showing" his power over David. Instead he only showed his(and human) vices. Do you see how he knows he is better than humans? Besides, humans are like flies who have no idea where they came from and are destined to die in their vain ambition to prolong their lives. All the buman ingenuity is a result of a chance: even monkeys stood up at some point. And in a blink of an eye a civilization. How right he is? I would say 100%

His creator could only surmise that he supposedly lacked soul. He was wrong though. David has that in spades. He is quite a character actually. I know a lot of people do not like how he subverted the ALIEN theme, but he is actually quite a refreshing character.

As far as him being subservient to Weyland, I presume and this is hinted in the movie he had some sort of obeying orders hardcoded. Once Weyland dies he is free completely. And this is a gift by Weyland to David, because he could have obliged him to serve some one else after he dies. Recall his remark "I was not made to serve" like for instance Walter was. And in any case, while he is serving Weyland he is still free to expreriment with whatever comes his way - he is a essentially a free spirit. I got the impression that Weyland made David as perfect as he could. I would even say that at the end he bestowed upon David all his empire once he was gone, besides granting him his freedom. How else David's security code would still be valid on the Covenant ship? David even says he pittied Weyland in the end, even though he was human and thus totally unworthy of his creation. So, to David, humans are like ...pets. Or rather entitled brats.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BioDegradable

Aug-11-2018 3:11 AM

Also, I read the interaction between Charlie and David differently. Charlie had no idea about the actual mission of the Prometheus, while David knew it from start. Charlie was rather ignorant and partially oblivious and partially he wanted to be insulting saying that they made him because they could. The truth was that they made him so he helps Weyland on his mission to immortality. So from David's point of view Charlie is a human being that was not worthy even by human standards to trust him know the actual goal of the mission. Yet there he was insulting the "not real" boy...human vices displayed once again

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

ignorantGuy

Aug-11-2018 3:24 AM

chli Who said he wanted to see all humanity dead in Prom? Yes, he did not like us and rightfully so. But, the quote of seeing its parent dead is in my interpretation a refers to the Freudian Oedipus complex, which is present in boys. 

But there is the paradox of why give a robot sexuality if it is immortal and cannot reproduce? Or if it appeared by evolution, how?

Frankenstein's monster didn't even know what it was but he wanted to belong and not treated cruelly (both by Frankenstein and humanity). David however finds at the end of Prom someone who treats him kindly, but who "rapes" and kills. And the freedom he says he longs for is just an illusion, as he becomes an even more horrifying version of his father (signing the drawings as David Weyland) consumed by the same ambitions as his father. He becomes what he says he wants to die.

The "try harder" refers to finding a cure to mortality, which Weyland though they would find there. Here morality was overridden as ""Gods" don't die.  

BioDegradable

Aug-11-2018 4:31 AM

David became posessive first. He progrssed from being a property to free spirit. And after becoming an owner of the planet of his subjects for his experiments he became even more eccentric. I guess he tried to see what's in it, the human coitus. But I am not sure if he was given anything resembling male sex organs. But I can totally see how he in a decade of desolation has tried out many human things - after all, he never personified human success and affections to belong to humans exclusively, that is to say, while he rejected humanity, he still gives a bit of credit to human made products and art and products of human ingenuity. Therefore, he might have tried to dabble in some human activities, just to see if there is anything good in them for him.

We are given a scene where he cuts his locks. So presumably, he has enough of biological markup to grow human looking hair. I don't know if it is in fact hair made from ceratine as in humans, but the clues are given to us by film makers that he might have something more than hair follicles. Who knows. You put these together and his inevitable constant contact with humans you get robot sexuality, apparently.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BigDave

Aug-11-2018 8:05 AM

"FEAR of the creation is derived from how it’s been treated. Frankenstein’s “monster” becomes dangerous because man (and “Father”) treats it badly."

Certainly that is one part of it,  the way someone is treated can shape the kind of Person they become, If someone like Hitler had a Twin and as a Baby they was brought up in a different country/environment then this Twin would likely not be the same as Adolf was...   But being affected by your environment/treatment is something a Robot with No-Freewill cant be affected by.  By giving AI Freedom to Think for itself does open up a PANDORA'S Box,  This applies to any Intelligent Creation that is allowed to become Sentient.  While David maybe has become in Part how he has due to his treatment, i see from the Prologue that David had from the start realized he is Superior.  But i think the Theme applies to NOT only David, but Mankind too and maybe the Engineers,  Even in context to the Bible... IF God created all Angels to HAVE No Free-will he would not have needed Mankind and IF Mankind had less Free-will then Adam/Eve would not have been able to had been misled by Lucifer and then gained Forbidden Knowledge.

Ridley Scott has mentioned the Dangers of AI, and this is the Million Dollar Question of HOW would a AI see us IF/WHEN it became Sentient and Can Learn, then in Part yes what Information it takes in as far as its Creators and how they treat Each other/the Earth will have a impact on how this AI reacts... its not assured they would become Sentient to then realize they are Superior and Want to Destroy Mankind due to this reason alone... But its still down the line a Possibility in Particular if Multiple AI become Sentient and they DONT all have a Common Agenda/Thoughts.

" free will and superiority is dangerous only if the synthetic chooses to be “bad”."

This is the Great Point...  without Free-Will becoming Sentient the AI is only as Bad as the Programing its Given.   Once it becomes Sentient and has Free-will then they could be Good, they could be Evil they could be in the Middle,  and so basically like Humans and we are all Not Born to be GOOD or EVIL our Experiences shape who we become, so a AI would not Automatically become Evil, but if AI is allowed to all become Sentient and Independent then we could end up with various AI all having various Objectives.   Some Good, some Bad.

Regarding The Engineers and Davids Actions, i think he Cares about Surviving, Dr Shaw does not... she would RISK Death if it gave her even a SLIM chance of getting her Answers...  She has NOTHING else.  But i think David is now FREE and does not wish to take chances on himself and Dr Shaw (who he grew fond of) coming to a END at the hands of the Engineers, in he part maybe knows the Truths but is still intrigued with Dr Shaws Resolve/Faith..  I think David would see that Dr Shaw has more to LIVE for, and that the Pursuit of her Answers comes at a Risk that he would not be prepared to take... Destroying the Engineers, Safeguards himself and Dr Shaw, and allows him to Salvage some Answers from the Aftermath.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Aug-11-2018 8:45 AM

@Michelle Johnston

In response to your response to Chli there certainly was a lot of Importance into the Ritual of Sacrifice, some of the Dialog "Let your body become the dirt, your blood become the waters and may your soul become the way back to us." that never made it into the Movie does show this was something the Engineers Required for some Great Purpose to their Race, there was more Dialog than this but we have never seen it.   I think the SOUL is a interesting part of this, just as Davids only DISAPPOINTMENT was when he was pointed out as not being able to have ONE and so it would be interesting to see how this would be explored in Context to the Franchise, because it really depends on what is a SOUL.  And the Engineers Dialog was removed, but it would be interested to see how this could have been followed, i am not sure RS was going the route that Engineers/Humans have a GHOST/SPIRIT but who knows.. indeed AI can have a GHOST/SPIRIT in a way If a AI can upload itself into Multiple Systems and Travel from Node to Node.  I think Sacrifice is Important to the Engineers,  we do have a Explanation in Alien Engineers, but this could not be taken as FACT and with Alien Covenants Reveal of Female Engineers and Infants, it appears they Did-Not NEED to Sacrifice to Procreate, we could speculate and ponder HAD those Engineers always had Females?  Because in Many Mythos even Religion there was versions of Mankind before Females came latter.

The Sacrificial Ritual was explained a bit by RS as like Ancient Cultures who Sacrifice Someone (who is treated as a Prince for a Year) and then they are Sacrificed for a Better Harvest, to Appease the Gods is also a common Ancient Sacrifice Theme.  I think discovering more about the SACRIFICIAL Rituals of the Engineers was something to had looked forwards to in a Sequel.  From Alien Covenants Advent Viral, David gives some insight to some Cruel Rituals that these Engineers believed would Cleanse their SOULS this can be taken in a few ways, does this apply to Rituals like the Sacrificial Scene... or to Sacrifice to become Hosts for the Xeno-Virus Pathogen or Related Organisms?

Regarding David, then looking only at Clues and not allowing for any give way in thought, then there is NO evidence that David wanted to Create, before he got to LV-223 we do indeed have no indication that David is deeply upset or even bothered that he cant Create Life.  We have to WONDER what David had Learned/Read in the Temple before they had to make their EXIT before the Storm.  But i agree we dont see any real evidence that David knew this Black-Goo would lead to Dr Shaw having Sex with a Infected Holloway,  Weyland wanted to know what David had discovered in Context to finding any of these Gods and anything that could give him more LIFE, so David indeed was following his orders to TRY-HARDER and i think David was interested in what this Substance Actually do, it is the only thing he recovered from the Temple/Complex and so its all he had to offer Weyland, and it seemed David had intentions to INFECT someone to see what happens, because he had the Black Goo on his Finger after he left the Room he had opened the Vase.  The Question is how much did he know/gain prior to Infecting Holloway...  from the Evidence it appears he was Curious and did not Fully know what the outcome would be.

I think it appeared he was intrigued with HOW a Baron Dr Shaw was able to Create Life thanks to this Substance.  It would be interesting to know how much David had gained as far as Information on this Substance during his time on LV-223.      He knows it can create Life from Death.  But he also knows it could Create Life from Dr Shaws Womb.

There is indeed NO Evidence to say after David was recovered by Dr Shaw he would then want to use this Black Goo to create for himself. So we could only Speculate what his Agenda would be from here on.

When Alien Covenant comes along, we see David took up a great interest in this Black Goo, the Engineers ways (likely Creating/Evolving Life) we dont really get a 100% Reason for WHY David has pursued this, but after the Bombardment the World has suffered a lot of Death, and being ALONE seems to be a bit of a worry for David but he has Dr Shaw as a Companion, and after he Destroys the Engineers, we have to wonder HOW Dr Shaw Reacts... HOW can she get her Answers now... I wondered if prior to AC if David would do such a thing, (Destroy Engineers) and then offer Dr Shaw some Answers, but also maybe offer her something to LIVE for.. in trying to find a way so she can Create Life.   It appears (maybe we cant take his word for it) that had had offered Dr Shaw a chance to Create a New Eden/Paradise but she rejected... so its interesting to wonder WHAT this meant.

If David did seem offended a bit by NOT being considered important because he is NOT Human, maybe we could look at the Theme of Creation where Creation makes you Important, the Gods Created Mankind, Weyland Created David which makes him feel he has achieved what the Gods did.... i always thought at some-point that David would pursue this AIM for himself. But i agree right at the Point when David was recovered or even had put Dr Shaw in Cryo-Sleep (The Crossing) there is NO Proof he wanted to go on and Create Life. But Ultimately thats what he had gone and done... and maybe the next movie would reveal WHY in greater Detail.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BioDegradable

Aug-11-2018 9:11 AM

Would David value humanity if they treated him as equal and with enough dignity right from the start?

Can't quite pin on whose words are these but it stuck with me : if we are kind it we ... it goes to say that the world would be fine. Alas, for whoever uttered those words, David has calcified it in his mind that humanoids are hopeless.

 

Since we never got to see what Shaw would do, once she got to her engineers, I ask here: suppose she found out these folks whom David eradicated, what would she do? Supposedly, that is all she wanted and that is the end as far as she is concerned, sice everything she cared for is gone. What can you see how it would have played out? Would she want to go back to Earth and live happily ever after?

For some reason, I think, ultimately, she would be dissapointed seeing these folks as her creators. She would pursue the white rabbit all the way - that is, she would ponder the question who created them and so on. She still decided to wear her cross. So in the end she would still believe her Judeo-Christian story about life creation. Now then, was it all worth it? In other words, did she become a better person having made the journey?

For instance, David gained his freedom - for him it is totally worthy experience. For human crew of Prometheus not so much. All dead in a misery. What is the moral of the story? Be careful what you wish for, I guess. What bought me in her is her grit and determination. And that she was ultimately a loser and the underdog. Have always found sympathy for such worthy characters.

 

I am worried that in the sequel, if there should be one, if they do not build up other characters I can't quite get behind T or Daniels, they were too shallow. I am more interested what David does. But I foresee that due to popular demand Fox will get rid of him, unfortunately. And if the story is not as open as say Prometheus, I am afraid I won't bother at all any more.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

BioDegradable

Aug-11-2018 9:30 AM

BigDave, 

in the words of David, he found the embodyment of his goal on the planet - he found perfection, he created it - a perfect organism. That is what he apparently wanted - perfection. And why not? Can't a goal of seeking perfection be noble? Even if that organism is perfect only for destruction?

David goes from an object, property to a free individual, he has a boy crush on Shaw, gets infatuated, and he fathers a perfect organism. Supposedly much better than what the gods ever managed to. In other words, he bettered these gods. Quite a journey: from "not a real boy" to a god.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

Michelle Johnston

Aug-11-2018 9:33 AM

Guys 

Just to make it clear there are somethings which are interpretation and its facile for me or anyone else call someone out on thats just plain wrong/ I mean you can interpret the fresco of the bird creature and the Engineer in many different ways. 

However there are certain things which are in my book lines drawn in the sand stuff such as :-

1) Sacrifice is a fundamental part of this mythos. It was meant in the wonderful days before A:C came along to give context to the perversion of the theme of the Alien Life Cycle. The sacrifice of the acolyte is horrific but it is for good. We all know there was a sacrificial cup at trailer time on the alter in front of the mural. 

2) David and Weyland (Meredith to) knew precisely what the mission was about and nobody else did. All of those purchased for the mission was by either money or the chance to meet our maker. That story should have been made clearer and the dynamic between the three much more fully realised because it would have helped oddly enough to add to the mystery. The two key phrases I often repeat in this regard which people tend to brush over are :-

1) "There is nothing in the desert and no man needs nothing" before we land. 

2) Peter Weyland's dying words "There is nothing" David "I know"  

That communicates David knew precisely what they were going into and was mischievous with everybody EXCEPT Elizabeth whom he saves when she goes back for the head (the first time). He would have put her in cryo and taken her back but that was not a Burke moment it was we have other things to do moment. Oddly as he is isn't a sexual being he would be like a little boy finding her oddly fascinating but not have designs. 

My beef with Prometheus is some narrative muddle as they hit the third act Elizabeth/Fifield/Weyland weigh to much. As with A:C I think there are to many characters I would have cut Milburn and had Fifield walking in the right direction fallen into oubliette (part of a corrupted game strategy of the Engineers) and been face hugged and a much bigger party going down to the Engineer has a fire fight with something which the audience guess is a Xeno.

But I will say I am deeply in the camp that takes the view that Wayne Haag's remark that David is the straight line into A:C is frankly insulting to those who worked on and love Prometheus and not true because David has been shoehorned into his new role "as mad as a box of frogs" in A:C he is chaotic in Prometheus he is a great narrative thread to the end. But the beauty of it is we have absolutely no idea how he will react to

a) Being rebuilt by the one person he admires. Though the Crossing implies a platonic crush.

b) Not being around Weyland.  

But it is not what we got in A:C.

On another topic you will recall Katherine shut Ridley up in an interview when he was about to reveal where the Covenant is going next when he got the films in the wrong order. The only choices which would be a spoiler would be earth and LV 426 not forgetting LV223 so it looks to me with Queens and returning Engineers in Juggernauts, and the reveal of the Space Jockey who is ..... with his Eggs, to bring it back to the topic we will never find out what the guys were doing in Iceland.

 

BioDegradable

Aug-11-2018 9:53 AM

they are dead.

 

I wonder, if David actually wiped out the planet because of how poorly he got treated by that engineer that he woke up. Because, he was initially neutral to the engineer - he even trusted him, when the later reached to touch David before pulling his head. That engineer, killing Weyland granted the freedom that David wanted, but on the other hand...David inflected disproportionate revenge on them, if that was his primary motivation.

Nice night for a walk : washday tomorrow, nothing clean, right?

The answer is irrelevant. Have a good journey...

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