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ali81

Jul-27-2018 12:44 AM

gna have to bare with me as it may seem like im going all over the place but in my head it makes sense.

when do we think this scene took/wouldv taken place on earth?

when I first saw the film I took the assumption that the scene took place on earth and the engineers were seeding life on earth and by that I mean life started on earth because of this sacrificial engineer. now a Cpl of things come to mind if this is the case. surely only humans would have come from this OR, this may support the theory that the black goo comes in many different forms as the engineers have found a way to program it for certain tasks. would support the different effects we see between the sacrificial engineer, Fifield and the engineers on planet 4. now scientists believe ALL life started in the sea. well theres a waterfall so checks out ok there but the mutagen would have to be tweeked. it may need a base gene for reference but has the ability to reorganise it into whatever organism suits the environment otherwise u just get humans from this scene.

is it more likely that this scene, assuming its on earth, took place after the extinction of the dinosaurs? once the earth recovers, the engineers find the planet and seed it? in this case do we just appear or does the fact the mutagen is in the water mean that indeed we did come from primates who had been drinking the contaminated water? bare in mind the mutagen is heavily diluted so this would take millennia to happen

thoughts 

148 Responses to prometheus opening scene

Leto

Jul-27-2018 1:50 AM

Ridley says: this planet maybe not the Earth.

 

And OF COURSE - in opening scene Engineers NOT CREATE all live from nothing.

If it is Earth.

We can see green fields - plants.

And Engineers breathe air.

The main component of air is oxygen.

Oxygen is sub product of cyanobacteria.

Cyanobacreria is a liveform (with looooooong evolution path).

Life was on Earth before Engineers.

 

And earlier scripts (John Spaihts) tell us - Engineers found Earth and found primitive human-like primates and transform they into humans.

 

Or my thoughts - another alien race create Engineers FROM earlier humans and then Engineers will rise and started war against they creators and win (fresco from Prometheus). Planet from opening scene is Paradise (Planet 4) or another planet, or... Earth - where engineers returned to give to earlier humans the black goo power (analogy with FIRE from Prometheus myth).

 

Thoughts_Dreams

Jul-30-2018 12:47 PM

I have read some posts here that says that it could have been anywhere. I am not sure f this is the way that the Engineers start life or if they have different ways to do that and it is that they mostly use. That scene was kind of vague like a lot of things in the movie but it is kind of interesting.

“it may need a base gene for reference but has the ability to reorganise it into whatever organism suits the environment otherwise u just get humans from this scene.”

The black goo is interesting but it is strange how it works. First it mutates things then it can be used in a way to kill things (AC). It is weird and not very thought out. Unfortunately Alien Covenant only made this worse so I blame it on bad writing. Maybe they went back to Prometheus to see how it worked maybe not but they should have made better use of it that makes sense, that is what I am saying. At the same time cancer cells can mutate so maybe it works like something similar? I don’t know

“is it more likely that this scene, assuming its on earth, took place after the extinction of the dinosaurs?”

Hmm, I did not read it like that at all. To me it was that he started all life on earth by doing that. Remember that it was water there and you need water for living things. By adding that thing they basically started all life on that planet as far as I see it.

BigDave

Jul-30-2018 5:14 PM

Well as LETO put it.... this was nearly the same as my Reply would have been too.

We need to go back to the Origins... Jon Spaights... his Alien Engineers draft showed us that these Engineers and their Creation Tool (Goo/Scarabs) are what leads to Mankind...  it kind of Merged the Ancient Alien/Gods Theory with Evolution... where the Sacrificial Scene was a way to PASS on Engineer DNA and that Engineer DNA via the Mutagen/Scarabs Evolved a Primate DNA to become a Primate/Human Hybrid which was our Ancestor.

This was a investment by the Engineers of less than a few Hundred Thousand years to Reach the Goal of Mankind (depends what Evolutionary Path from Primate to Human the Engineers are responsible for.  And it appears the Engineers Sacrifice leads to the Direct Ancestry Path from Primate).   This has FLAWS though, because what happens if one of the Scarabs bites a Dog/Wolf?  WHY are there no Werewolves etc..  Basically WHY is only Mankind the only Engineer Hybrid or so it appears.

So this is maybe why it was changed a bit to the Prometheus route, which seemed to be the Start of Life from the Engineers Sacrifice. But as Leto points out this World had Plant Life etc... Oxygen etc and so it was LIKELY the Prometheus Scene was to show the Engineers Sacrifice was the Catalyst to Evolve Basic Life into Complex Life that would then Kick Start Evolution to Complex Life we have, there was a Story Board showing this Evolution from Engineer Sacrifice to Evolving Cells to Basic Life, to Fish to Amphibian Tetrapods  which means the Process from the Sacrificial Scene to Humans was a Investment of Many Hundreds of Millions to even Over a Billion years.

But RS had said the Engineers came back over and over Evolving us Genetically and Technologically (knowledge). So they came back and took certain Life Forms and Evolved them over and over.... which is what i think LV-223 was for.  (Sandbox, Nursery, Green House).

But RS also said THIS scene (Sacrificial Scene) does not have to be Earth, it could be any place and really its just to show us HOW the Engineers Seed Worlds.

With ALIEN COVENANT... as i mentioned during Production and when Shooting was announced, and we saw the Set Photos... i thought we could be seeing a WORLD that was Paradise as in Context to the Biblical place, the Cradle of Creation...

So indeed the Sacrificial Scene could have taken Place on Planet 4, maybe this Place had no Complex Life but the Sacrificial Scene leads to just Humanoids... which the Engineers use this place as the CROP for the Creation/Evolution of Humanoids in the Galaxy....

Planet 4 could have Evolved other life from this though, and the Process on Planet 4 from Sacrifice to those Engineers could be a very long one.

So maybe LIFE comes from Planet 4, and various Life is taken to other Worlds and allowed to Evolve there, but i think these Organisms would go through some Experiments/Sacrificial Routes too further Create a Diverse Range of Lifeforms.

I have my theories on what Planet 4 and LV-223 are, and indeed it implies the Juggernauts are just SEEDING ships...

"another alien race create Engineers FROM earlier humans"

This is interesting and something i pondered too... especially when i had some information from a supposed Source who had insight to Prometheus 2 drafts prior to 2015.  It seemed to imply the Engineers were more like David, and Mankinds Role is Larger than we expect... even going as far as Mankind Created the Xenomorph not Engineers.. well we played the Bigger Role in it.  There was plenty of other information which all seemed a bit odd, in part got me thinking "are the Engineers from US?"

Then over 2 years after this information was passed on, we got Alien Covenant and more so... some Concepts... which for me RAISE some Big Questions.

Below is Concept work for the Cathedral... One is by Wayne Haag the other Steve Messing, TWO Concept Artist, with TWO slightly different versions that are different in some ways to the ONE in Alien Covenant.

Can you SPOT WHAT? and then ask WHY?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jul-30-2018 5:35 PM

"The black goo is interesting but it is strange how it works. First it mutates things then it can be used in a way to kill things (AC). It is weird and not very thought out"

Certainly i interpreted the Goo a certain way not long after seeing Prometheus, it helped me to make some sense of what i thought was going on... but i could be WRONG...  then many months after we saw Jon Spaights Alien Engineers get leaked and my interpretation of the Goo and Connections... were EXACTLY the same as Jon Spaights Alien Engineers had shown...

It was quite SIMPLE... but they released a Weyland File that contradicted my theory, while also contradicting Jon Spaights Nano-Scarabs and more so Contradicts most of what the Goo did in Prometheus..

Things got Worse with how Alien Covenant and the Advent Video explained it.

It all started as basically a Creation/Hybrid Tool..

Organism A takes the Base/Sacrificial Substance, and every Building Block is Broken Down and Forms into Mutagen that Carries Organisms A's DNA.

This Mutagen then infects other Organic Life imprinting the DNA of Organism A (Sacrificial Organism) onto other Organic Life, passing Traits/DNA of (Sacrificial Organism) to other Life Forms Creating a Hybrid where the best Traits of both are kept.

Engineer (Sacrificial Organism) = Engineer DNA Mutagen infects Primate = Humans.

Thus....   Wolf (Sacrificial Organism) = Wolf DNA Mutagen  infects Human = Werewolf

Replace Wolf at Sacrificial Stage with CAT and we have Thundercats, Replace Wolf with Turtle and we have TMNT etc.

Hence in Alien Engineers (and some Prometheus concepts) Fifield who ran into a Urn Containing Scarabs was Evolved into a Human/Xenomorph Hybrid and NOT broken down like the Engineer, Fifield was passed on Xenomorph DNA like the Primate was passed on Engineer DNA...

Which concludes to me.... The Engineers used the Sacrificial Scarabs on a Xenomorph Related Organism, then collected those Scarabs (consumed Xenomorph Related DNA) into Urns.

Which when you take this into account and look at the Original Prometheus Altar Scene.

Then you consider the MURAL of the Cruciform Pose Xenomorph like Organism.... and remember the Cruciform Pose does not represent GOD or Jesus...

It is used for Christ to represent his Sacrifice on the Cross allows Mankinds Savior...  NOW in Spaights Alien Engineers the Engineer took Cruciform Pose just after he consumed the Sacrificial Cup Contents and just before he started to be broken down/consumed.

So it means SACRIFICE  which must mean the Black Goo in Prometheus came from a Xenomorph Related Organism Sacrificed with the Sacrificial Goo.

This was my take on it all many years back, even Prior to Alien Engineers being leaked... and we can see if we go by that Draft and explantion above... then it was a SIMPLE Creation Tool and gave us CLEAR answers to the Xenomorph Experiments.

But the Weyland File and Advent Video have made it a MCGUFFIN

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Jul-30-2018 11:12 PM

This is science fiction so you can make facts work overtime to provide you with an extension which is thought provoking.

The story messages of the opening scene of Prometheus are :-

1) This a world where life is created out of a construct and there are two elements a catalyser and an acolyte you need both to kick start.

2) It is a world where exceptional beings are prepared in the knowledge that they will be sacrificed for the greater good (and if you accept the deleted dialogue have the promise of a return through their soul). This means christ's sacrifice is an echo of an ancient truth. 

_________________________________________________________

Then it becomes a world where consensual sacrifice leads to sub creation - The fresco.

_________________________________________________________

Then it becomes a world where there is non consensual sacrifice through the Alien Life Cycle.

Those are the beats of the story. If you check Damon's script there is no mural, no alter, no head so much of whats in the headroom will be Ridley doing his "what about one of those" offering visual coups with no attempt to ensure they fit into a rigorously worked through story. So the mural, the greenstone/sacrificial cup on the alter all become part of an endless speculation which never gets answered. 

 

BigDave

Jul-31-2018 7:44 AM

Indeed and your right in that we have to be cautious with any Visual Clues, because who knows whats going on in the heads of those who make such decisions, was there a thought out reason/purpose for this and that or was there no reason for them?

So while taking things like the Mural, the Fresco into account and how you interpret them and then consider the Altar and WHY the difference between the Sacrificial Cup and Green Crystal and then which to you consider as a clue to include in any theory you have.  Any THEORY even if they make more Sense than the Reality/Intentions really comes down to what is considered Canon (usually mean Theatrical) and what the intention of such clues are.

So for Example Theatrical Cut, means we maybe should not take the Elder Scene and Dialog as a 100% Fact, the same applies with the Sacrificial Cup on the Alter... we have to accept the Green Crystal.

Then the Fresco... the Image of a Xenomorph Related Organism holding a Xenomorph Egg, was so vague and a split second that even pausing the Movie you could not make out what it was as the shot of this image the Fresco was partially disappearing, which means can we really accept a connection between the Fresco and a Egg?

The Fresco we do see is ambiguous, while we see a Organism that has some Xenomorph Aesthetics, it looks in a Submissive Position and some could interpret that it was a Creation of the Engineer, it certainly could show it CAME FROM the Engineer and so liken the Image as the Adam and God Fresco from the Sistine Chapel this certainly fits within context to the Creation/Sub-Creation and even alluding to the Xenomorph Origins has something to do with Experiments and Organisms these Engineers had Created on LV-223.

While this fits... such is the Beauty of the Ambiguity, that if we look at the Fresco again and consider the Prometheus Mythos...  Then the Angle of the Engineer, the Beaked Appearance to the Organism, the look of Despair/Pain/Sadness on the Engineers Face the position of the Organism, the Tear/Scar on the Engineers Liver Area then the Fresco reminds me more of the one Prometheus Punishment Fresco.  My interpretation is the Angles, and look on the Engineers Face seem to match that Fresco.

However and i guess you point reflects this Michelle if the Fresco and Murals are just EASTER EGGS then they can send us on a bit of a Wild Goose Chase.  I think the interpretation given above works within context to the Prometheus Mythos and how Ridley Scott refered to those Engineers as FALLEN and we know in context to Fallen Angels, the broad theme is a group who became Rebellious against the ways/wishes and intentions of their Creator or Hierarchy.  When looking at the Biblical Context those Fallen Angels were cast out and Punished to take on a Horrific Appearance, sometimes referred to as being turned to Serpents. 

So looking at the Fresco as a Punishment either SENT down to Punish those Engineers (a Organism) or a Corrupting/Contaminating of the Black-Goo by the Hierarchy that leads to a Outbreak/Infection that creates such Horrors in the Fresco... or also maybe the Punishment is not sent by the Hierarchy/Creators but is a Sign of Hubris.. that messing about with the Black Goo, in ways not Permitted had lead to the Creation/Infection that leads to that Fresco.

Again such is the Beauty of the ambiguity that you can come up with a number of things that could fit the bill.   Those Engineers look different to the ones on Planet 4.... so we could maybe look at those Prometheus Engineers maybe using the Black Goo/Creation Tool to EVOLVE themselves and a Benefit was their appearance and Bio-Mechanical Suits but then a Hubris was the creation of the Fresco Organism.

But this could fit with the Punishment too, we could look at one of the Punishment theories above and what if the intended Punishment leads to the Fresco Organism, which DID-NOT kill those Engineers off, but they then was able to Re-Engineer it to Evolve themselves (Bio-Mechanical Pressure Suits)  I mean the Engineers Plan to Eradicate us FAILED and Back-Fired...  So maybe their Hierarchy/Creators Plans to Punish those Engineers Back-Fired too?

Such a Wonderful Ambiguity with Prometheus that allows for many theories, i think ALIEN COVENANT kind of puts some to bed though.

So indeed additions visually are sometimes things we maybe CANT rely on too much, especially if they was just Easter Eggs.  For some Changes i can Speculate a Reason..

For Example the Sacrificial Bowl.... now in the Shot with Holloway his Object is Large, its is much larger to Holloway than it was to the Sacrificial Engineer... but its about the RIGHT SCALE if our Sacrificial Engineer was 12ft Tall. And with the drafts to Prometheus our Engineers were intended to be 12ft Tall but when the movie was shot, the Illusion could not be created with how Ridley Scott had shot the movie and so we could see our Engineers where not 12ft tall but 8ft Tops.... so this would be a good reason to replace the Bowl if its now out of Scale.... but then who is to say they could not have explained in a Sequel the Sacrificial Engineer was 12ft Tall, or what stopped them making a Smaller Bowl to Scale with a 8ft Engineer.  So the Change is still interesting.  We have to Ponder if there was another reason, more than just because the Bowl was set to the Scale of much Taller Engineers than we got.

Changes can be forced for things like this... the Engineer Scenes, where he was getting up from the Crash, Running across the Surface of LV-223 (No Mask/Helmet) and Scenes of him wandering around the Life-Boat looking at the Violin Girl, and Books etc...    BECAUSE Ridley Scott was not impressed with the Fight Scene which he Felt made the Engineer look a little Weaker than intended.... he RE-SHOT another Quicker Scene where the Engineer appeared more Angry and Aggressive and showed Dr Shaw to have No Chance against him.... but as this RE-SHOOT was done while the Engineer had Burns Make up applied (which he never had prior to the Trilobite Attack) this meant as RS was pleased with this Re-shoot which now looked like the Engineer was Burnt during the Crash and Angry as $"£%£$ .... this meant the other scenes with NO Burn after the Crash all had to be CUT!

When we look at the Full Scenes prior to the Re-shoot they could paint a different picture to our Engineer, but ALAS the Burnt in Crash, Angry Engineer is what we got and its what RS preferred as far as what these Aggressive %£$^$& are intended to be seen as from RS Eyes.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Jul-31-2018 12:16 PM

@BigDave

I think you are collecting together a lot of different issues which are not all about the question of ambiguity.

Prometheus offered 1  3  5 7 10 and left out 2 4 6 8 and 9. Damon said in 2012 they knew what 2 4 6 8 9 where but their absence gave people permission to speculate until they made the sequel which never got made. 

To give some examples

 a In - the Engineers had a fall and all hell broke lose. 

 b Out - why and what represented.

 a In - Someone created them.

 b Out - who.  

a In - this isn't there home world.

  Out - we have no idea what their home world is like.

a In - there is a mutagen very clearly explained and given a serial number. Given what it does it cannot be the catalyser.

b  Out - How precisely do the catalyser and mutagen relate to each other we need to know much more about the catalyser to find out.

The story, the mythos turns on those issues.

Highlighting continuity errors, differences of scale and stuff in fun add ons and extras deleted scenes is quite separate. Indeed this whole idea of add ons has been brought to a new height of confusion in AC by marketing a whole series of drawings which probably have no connection other than they maybe Davids fantasies.

Looking at it positively or what should have been.

1) The derelict and jockey should have been signed off in the first film.

2) What the Engineers Homeworld is all about in the second film.

People need answers then build not sideways shuffle.

In the end the subtext of all this is the elephant in the room as to why no further films will be made.    

Less David more David less Xeno more Xeno less Engineers more Engineers is to miss the point we needed :

1) A powerful cohesive narrative. 

2) In a consistent and well thought mythos.

3) Mediation and proxy by the characters that survive that we identified with and were interested in (Thoughts and Dreams consistent and correct request).  

BigDave

Aug-01-2018 7:40 AM

Indeed your very right that there should have been a Coherent and thought out Plan, we just dont know what that Original Plan was because it appears as if a lot of things are being changed on the fly, and so there is a lot of Evolution to the Story, too many cooks in the Kitchen and what not...

Its still likely that when Ridley Scott and Jon Spaights sat down and worked out the KEY things as far as what lead to his drafts which included Alien Engineers, and i think its likely that when they sat down with Lindeloff while somethings were taken out, just because they was removed i dont think it changed the CORE/KEY Background Plot that they would/could eventually bring towards the front in sequels.  While the Scarabs were replaced with the Goo, they are basically still the same thing.

It just appears that during Final Shooting and indeed Post Shooting, that someone had decided to change a few things, maybe a change of plans/route but it still seemed that in their minds/in the background most of the Planned A-Z would have remained.

Alien Covenant however has changed some of that by changing the Plot to actually Focus on the Xenomorph Origins and bring this to a recent event and not a past event as indicated.

Looking at earlier drafts and deleted scenes does seem to paint a Picture that is different to taking only the Theatrical Release, but its one of those things/problems of using any such Material to Make Sense of it all, when they May/Should not be considered Canon.

Prometheus introduced a Mythos and Theme behind Creation with our Space Jockey Race, something that allowed them to Branch off and Explore this in a variety of ways, due to the Bold Plot and Ambiguity it meant NOTHING was set Concrete so they had Freedom to how to explore many things...  i think this in part leads to the PROBLEM of not being able to decide exactly how to cover these things and so brushing them under the Carpet with Alien Covenant was the easy/lazy route out.

So there was this Deep Plot that is more to do with WHY were the Engineers connected to Ancient Mankind and our Religions and Mythos, and exploring more about the Engineers in this context and the GENETIC GARDENERS of Space.  This is the Bigger Theme, but its a case of IF this is something we wont Focus on now and our Engineers will only Return to be Portrayed as Pissed Off Angry Dudes like we saw in Prometheus who want Revenge and then likely become interested in Davids Xenomorph for themselves.

So i worry our Engineers will only be explored and shown in terms of the Space Suited LV-223 guys, and maybe we wont really get any in depth exploration of their Race and Purpose.

But maybe its not over yet.... Ridley Scott seems to want to explore AI more than Xenomorphs, and i think he could propose the Questions to us about what really makes a AI, and show us its not all about Artificial Circuits and Programs... he could even show us that Mankind could very well had started off as a AI because RS was interested in Blurring the Lines between what is/contributes to a SOUL and what contributes to a Artificially Created Intelligent Life-form.  And when Ridley Scott mentions that REPLICANTS are AI it clearly shows that he views that AI is not about a Non-Organic Machines.

I think maybe RS was hoping to Drive us to ALIEN so that the Door can be closed on this, and then this leaves him open to Expand the whole Conspiracy/Agenda of the Company with a AI Curve-ball but also allows him to  then go back to the Engineers in more details.

In Hindsight a few changes to Prometheus they could have gave a Xenomorph Fix, and more clues so that the whole Space Jockey Event and Xenomorph Origins where not as OPEN to debate as they was with Prometheus.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Aug-01-2018 8:19 AM

"Looking at it positively or what should have been."

Indeed those points are what in Hindsight were a bit to ambiguous for some, and with the Alien Covenant U-Turn its a case of some being changed and worry that some would not get explored.

"1) The derelict and jockey should have been signed off in the first film."

To a degree i think the clues was there but they was just not Spoon Fed/Explained enough...  and for some people they need the ANSWERS and not have to look at clues and try and conclude a Answer that they then have to Question but is this the right assumption.  To me i could see that LV-223 was connected to the Xenomorph, this Facility and its Experiments either came from the Xenomorph or eventually would have led to them.   There was for me enough evidence to suggest this was a event related to AFTER the Outbreak on LV-223 but it was also a case of looking at the Chest Busted Engineers in Cryo-Sleep the Hammerpedes and indeed using/looking at alternative Concepts and Parts of Alien Engineers as a Rosetta Stone where a little more clues and more Xenomorph connection to the Black Goo (Alternative Fifields not Zombie one) and it paints a picture that allows us to make more of a INSIGHT to what happened to the Space Jockey.

"2) What the Engineers Homeworld is all about in the second film."

This was the set up, but i dont think its as clear cut as going to the Planet of the Gods,  David knew of this place because the Engineer had said HE did not come from LV-223 but from a World that we may refer to as Paradise.  This leaves it potentially open to what that could be, i dont think its as clear cut so say  Engineers are the Gods, and this place is where the Engineers come from.   It was the Engineer in Prometheus who came from this place... this leaves the Door open that those Engineers are not the Overall Creators.  So this place may be just the Cradle of their Race, much like the Garden of Eden was for Mankind...   this does not mean its the Place of their Creators, or indeed the only Place these Engineers are Shacked up on.  So despite Alien Covenant we can still explore other Worlds of these beings.

"Less David more David less Xeno more Xeno less Engineers more Engineers is to miss the point we needed"

This certainly is one problem with the route they took to a Alien Prequel where it was to concentrate on more than the Xenomorph, first it was to give a few clues, but to expand to follow the Engineers Arc, with David and Dr Shaw on the way to be our Eyes/Ears to discover more about the Engineers.  Steering away from ALIEN...  to then Back Track to please some Fans, and give us Xenomorphs, but less about the Engineers, while making the Emphasis on David... to now setting up a movie that will be about David, not so much about the Xenomorph but then introduce the Engineers again, and then basically just join dots to Xenomorphs ==> Onboard Engineer Ship ===> ends up in Zeta 2 System.   YET! it seems a lot of people are FED UP with David and the Large Role he has in the Xenomorph Origins and so some fans are going to want Xenomorphs but reveal they are not Davids Creations, some Fans are wanting to see more Engineers and them being the Emphasis behind the Xenomorph... so its in a bit of a MESS at the moment.  Do they Give Fans what they want and Change Things Yet again? or Stick to their (RS) Guns?

"1) A powerful cohesive narrative. 

2) In a consistent and well thought mythos."

Certainly i think Prometheus set up a pretty Deep/Bold interesting way forwards, but with the Engineers Brushed aside, no answers for Dr Shaw, it seems the Emphasis is on WHO/WHEN/WHY with the Xenomorph Creation and then HOW/WHEN/WHY they end up on the Derelict, and so between that Logical Conclusion its a case of Can/Will they fit in any of that Mythos that Prometheus opened the Door too, that Alien Covenant kind of Closed in Favor of the Xenomorph and WHAT possessed David to Create it.

"3) Mediation and proxy by the characters that survive that we identified with and were interested in (Thoughts and Dreams consistent and correct request)." 

Indeed you do benefit from having Human Characters because thats who we are more likely to connect with and put ourselves in their shoes as far as what events they discover, what jeopardy they get into. A Story can Sink/Swim depending on Characters.   And its how they are written/cast and acted.   The Thing worked Wonders but its been kind of copied in a lot of Low Budget Movies over the years... as far as a Unknown/Unseen until its too late threat, and a Small Group of Humans Stranded and Fighting for Survival....  The Thing worked where Prometheus/Alien Covenant failed, and where Alien worked and Alien 3 too, this is the Human Characters.

As you mentioned before Michelle, we cant keep having a 3rd of a movie developing Characters that are not so well done, to then kill them off and then Potentially throw the Survivors Under the Bus/Carpet for a Sequel.  Leaving only a Synthetic to Survive.

Looking at the Set Up for the Sequel, then how this maybe has to Directly Connect the Dots to ALIEN we have to Question how do we get Human Characters we can connect with who will survive the next movie and make it to the 3rd Act or Survive the Final Movie that ties to ALIEN?

You can kind of see WHY they changed the Plot for Alien Covenant, because following just Dr Shaw, with Synthetic David to a Alien World to meet or maybe not, these (None English speaking) Engineers

They would have to ask, ok how do we introduce other Human Characters, this would be Hard if the Engineers World is on the other side of the Galaxy, as having Humans turn up on say LV-223 while David and Dr Shaw are Thousands of Light years away, so a movie that goes back/forwards between TWO separate Narratives would be hard.

We could have Gone to a Distant World and been introduced to more Humans, or Races that are very close to Human... but then its the whole Coincidence if they can communicate with Dr Shaw.  So you can see why they had to find a way to introduce Earth Humans to the Plot, and by then deciding the NEED to give us our Xenomorph Origins and in context to Chronologically taking place after the year 2093, has led to what we have with Alien Covenant and a necessity to bring the World of the Engineers onto our Doorstep.

I think the Change was a GRAVE ERROR by those working on the Project and in HINDSIGHT...  we could have had the same kind of Plot but set Hundreds of years latter, well certainly after the Time-Line of Aliens where a Human Ship, even a Colony Ship sets off on a much more distant mission, at a much latter time and so they TURN UP where David and Dr Shaw had been at least 50 years after the events of Prometheus, and end up in a Location that is NOT on our Door-Step.

We could then have followed a Plot of David Re-Creating something, and reveal clues to HOW/WHEN/WHY the Original was created by the Engineers, thus keeping the Derelict a Mystery a bit while confirming its Ancient Origins and Engineer Connection.

We could be introduced to the Engineers in a Sequel then where they Turn up in a Much Further away place, and in a Time-Line after the events of ALIENS, so that if they end up coming closer to Earth's Proximity it does not conflict with the Alien Franchise.

But Alas.....

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Aug-01-2018 12:08 PM

This will be my final post on the matter because this discussion goes round in circles.

There is substantial narrative potential with the following:-

1) Elizabeth Shaws search for her answers and thats the simple version of whats happening with Elizabeth.

2) Davids search for a soul and thats the simple version of whats happening with David. 

3) The meaning of the teardrop ship.

4) The meaning of the planetoid (Prometheus and Alien).

"They are us we are them" they share a root language which David has already mastered so beings billions of years old can soon bone up on a branch of Indo European and anyway these guys have something in spades given they have terraformed and catalysed worlds for billions of years. There story is the difference between ... and ...

 

 

BigDave

Aug-01-2018 3:20 PM

"This will be my final post on the matter because this discussion goes round in circles."

Sorry you feel like that, i think it shows that there really is a lot of ways to explain/evolve things that Prometheus had shown us. I find it very interesting to listen to other peoples views on the Big Questions in regards to Prometheus and the Avenues it opened up, and i REALLY look forwards to when you have Finished your work, it will be interesting to see your interpretations and how you would have dealt with a lot of stuff that was BRUSHED aside when we got Alien Covenant.

There are some Fundamental things we have covered but still have room for more answers in the Franchise, so while Prometheus tried to explain and opened up some things it created  a lot more Questions which have Spurned many Debates that a Spoon Fed Movie would not have allowed.

1) The Sacrificial Scene, on screen we are indicated this is how Life Began on Earth, the Question of WHY was not answered on Screen in Great Detail and while we had David and Holloway talk about Creation in Context to why we Created David, while also proposing to Dr Shaw all you needed was DNA and a Petra Dish.   There was still room for WHY they Created us, and WHY they do the whole Sacrificial Route.  The WHY is something that Pretty Much can have many reasons for its one of Dr Shaws Questions she would want Answered, as well as the Audience...  While Ridley Scotts Comments, and other Sources of Information (Besides the Theatrical Footage) give us some more clues to chew up... ULTIMATELY this was on thing i think a Prometheus Sequel would have dealt with.  The Answer cant be as Mundane as because they could!

This also leads us to Ponder WHO/WHAT else they have Created and WHERE.

2) The Reasons for LV-223, while we are shown this place was used to Produce a Biological Weapon that was intended for us, and while again on Screen we only get vague clues to WHY, (it again is answered more in Interviews/Commentary etc) the 2000 years ago Coincides with Jesus Crucifixion is something that i think there is more to it than that.  But we have not had a Spoon Fed Answer, David Muddys the Waters with "sometimes to create one must first destroy" I think the WHY they used this place to Create a Bio-Weapon and WHEN is important, because the Star Maps are very strange to be left as clues to a Out Post that for what 35'000 years is where these Engineers are creating a Bio-Weapon that they lose Control of 33'000 years later just as they are about to use it?   LV-223 MUST have had another Purpose prior to being used to Create Death intended for Earth.  Again another Question that Dr Shaw would have wanted Answering.

3) Who made them?  Maybe No-One but its certainly something Dr Shaw wants to discover, and the set up does seem to be there could be more to Creation than just those Engineers.  This Question would Open up Possibilities to how many Layers of Creation there are, and Cement where our Place and the Engineers fit in all of this.

Again leads us to Ponder WHO/WHAT else their Creators have created and WHERE.

4) What does the Sacrificial Goo/Black Goo Represent, Creation and Death?  I think asking Questions of what this stuff really is, and its Origins are important.  Alien Covenant has kind of tried to paint a picture its just ONE Substance that is a Form of AI but we have to wonder what was the Origins and Uses of this prior to that Reveal or was it always intended as the Advent Claims.

5) The Relation between those Seeding Engineers, and LV-223 which in turn can get to wonder the Reasons and Differences between the Seeding Tear Drop Ship and the Horseshoe Juggernauts.  Is its really as Simple as ONE to Create and ANOTHER to Destroy?  The Seeding Ship and Method is very Ancient but its a bit Flawed, do they continue with this route? or had they Evolved it?  And how come the would-be Military Juggernauts have no Real Defenses, and dont Rise any Fear/Suspicion from those beings on Planet 4... is there more to the Juggernaught than a Weapon of Death?

6) How connected is the Prometheus Mythos in context to what is going on with these Engineers, we see Creation is linked with Prometheus,  that Betrayal is linked with Prometheus, we see that Stealing of Fire/Passing on Knowledge against the wishes of the Hierarchy Rulers is connected to Prometheus and also for this Punishment Bestowed onto Prometheus.  So another Question is HOW Literal are these things in relation to the Movie and WHO they apply to.  Again we can get some clues, but there is not a Spoon Fed Answer to be found in the Movie.

7) The FALL and in what context and to who does this apply, Mankind had Fallen and we had been given 2nd Chances, and Ridley Scott refers to the Engineers as Fallen, and so its a case of WHAT is meant by this and to WHO this applies. (all Engineers? or just a Faction). So WHO/WHY and HOW is important in context to the Fallen Ones.

8) What is PARADISE we know its a World related to the Engineers, that Dr Shaw and David were heading towards... A Place that could have led to Answering most of the ABOVE.... but a Place that Alien Covenant reveals a little about, but still retains some Mystery Regarding this place... as far as NO Direct Answer on Screen.

These all broaden out to a number of things, and they all could have a number of Answers, there was not laid down any Direct Answers/Routes although we can be guided to certain conclusions depending WHAT information we use/dont use and our own interpretations.  But these are the main things to Ponder that a Sequel COULD have in some part Answered/Started to, where it would likely have needed Engineers and Dr Shaw.  Many of these Mysteries were left in ways that was OPEN for people to interpret.  But you have to think to some extent they had INTENDED to  Answer/Show us some/many of these Questions.

Then we have the other ELEMENTS..

A) Which is WILL we get any more Clues to the Xenomorph Origins, and Purpose as to WHY/WHEN it was Created (because well for some this was not answered enough).

B) What Arc will David be on now he is Free, and the Discoveries, Revelations he has found regarding our Creators, and how Godlike they are not.  What Pursuit/Agenda David has now he is Free.  How have the events of Davids Creation, Upbringing and Freedom have upon him and his Journey, would he stick to any COVENANT he makes with Dr Shaw, or now he has KEYS to the Juggernaught and Knowledge about where our Would-Be Creators are ARMED with the Deadly Bio-Weapon they Created... what would he DO?

A continuation of this could be to ask what is a SOUL and what makes us IMPORTANT and the Creators Divine... or are we Important/They Divine.  So indeed to get us thinking about Creation, Soul and our Journey after Death.

Sadly Alien Covenant only really Focused on A+B and it appears these are the Emphasis going forwards, but it would be a Shame to not find out 1-8 in some way at least... but we shall have to wait and see.

In the Meantime these are things that have Spawned Countless Discussions, that really are open due to the Vague/Ambiguous nature of how they was handled/set up from Prometheus.   UNTIL these are all Answered in as Spoon Fed Manner as the Xenomorph Origins seem to now have been... there is room for Debate on them.

And i Michelle, truly have enjoyed your views on these and others and TOTALLY look forwards to your Novel ;)

PS i'm sorry if i may come across as Pushy with my Points, that is never my intention and my Grammar is not Great too and the USE of Capitals and Bold is only to Highlight and not Force Across Points.

Look forwards to your contributions in the Months to come and are very Eager to Read your Novel.  As i think you have a very good way of looking at the Themes, and i ma excited to see what your work is like.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Aug-01-2018 3:45 PM

"is it more likely that this scene, assuming its on earth, took place after the extinction of the dinosaurs?"

I think this a interesting thing to ponder, we need to remember that Prometheus was trying to TIE in the Ancient Aliens/Chariots of the Gods Theory (Religion, Mythos) all stem from a Alien Species that have Seeded/Evolved Mankind.  Where they are trying that the Space Jockey Race is actually these Would-Be Gods of our Ancient Past.

And some Ancient Astronaut theories are that our Creators actually Destroyed the Dinosaurs so that they could then Create Mankind.

This is not as FAR FETCHED as it may sound, because RS had indicated similar, as he had said the Engineers may have Wiped the Slate Clean on Earth and Elsewhere a Number of Times.  He then proposes that was there LIFE on Earth before US? and asks about ATLANTIS

"Sometimes to Create, One must First Destroy"

Who really knows what that means and the Question  why the Engineers had to Destroy/Wipe the Slate Clean....   Depending on WHY they Seed/Evolve Worlds does lead us to Ponder that the BLACK-GOO is a pretty Desperate way to Wipe the Slate Clean and a bit OVERKILL especially if the Results are Potentially Dangerous Parasitic Creations that Evolve from the Bombardment (Neomorph Spores).

The Sacrificial Scene in itself is a Pretty Destructive Event, especially depending HOW you interpret this Substance, and if we look at how Alien Engineers showed us the Scarabs...    Then it leads us to seeing the Broken Down Engineer Molecular Structure is now Forming into something that can EVOLVE Organic Matter.

So we have to ask WHAT if a Organism be it a Fish, a Mammal or a Human was in that Water at the time the Engineers Dissolving Corpse Falls into it?   We can assume those Organisms would be infected with the Mutagen and Engineer DNA.

Does this Evolve them? or do they in affect become something New, "Sometimes to Create, One must First Destroy"

So in itself the Sacrificial Seeding we can maybe Assume would Act as a RE-SET Switch.  Which kind of makes using the Black Goo (that appears related to the Xenomorph DNA Ancestory) is a little Overkill.

I would think that Sacrificing Engineers and Collecting their DNA/Resulting Substance and collecting it into Canisters...  would Provide a Better Reset Switch as Life would be eradicated/evolved to take on the DNA that basic Life was Evolved with in the First Place.

Engineer DNA contained in Canisters Dropped on a New World, with only Basic Life would Provide the same affect as the Sacrificial Scene, juts more Efficient i think.

Dropping them on a Already Inhabited World would ACT as a Reset Switch.   And here in is WHY i think the Juggernauts/Urns are just the more ADVANCED/EVOLVED Method of Seeding Worlds.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Aug-03-2018 8:26 AM

"the engineers have found a way to program it"

This was how the Advent Viral had attempted to explain it, Originally with Jon Spaights and a theory i share is that the Goo is a Hybrid Tool, it breaks down a Organisms DNA/Genetic Makeup and this then forms with the Goo to become a New Mutagen that passes on Sacrificed Organisms DNA to other Organic Matter.

But if we look at the Programing of the Goo, i think it makes more sense that this stuff is Programed to then Interact and Program/Add/Remove Certain Genetic Characteristics of Organic Matter it comes into contact with.

so its kind of like maybe suggesting that the GOO could be the KEY to every Organism.     If we do look in Detail at every Single Genetic Marker in a every Organism (as Science Improved we will discover more).    Then at the Base Level indeed every Organism could be made up of a combination of Many Many Different bits of Genetic Code, it would be like Writing a Novel (or a Program) where we have much more Characters than a Typical Computer Keyboard has.  And the depend what combination and how many of this Characters go into our Program or Novel... Determines what the Life-Form would end up like.

So with say Dogs the Program/Novel would be the same apart from a few changes here and there that Determine the Differences to each Dog Bread.   The same could be said for the Differences to each Human.   And were Organisms are similar but different,  a RAT vs a HAMSTER or a SHARK vs SALMON then there are many more Lines of that Code in the Program/Novel that are different.

So the Goo could either be the BASE set of all the Characters that make up every Organism and can be Programed to Create a Set of Codes that make a Life-form, or at very least it can be Programed to Imprint a New Set of Codes onto Life-Forms it comes into contact with.

So if the Engineers Program the GOO with Markers that related to a Primate DNA, then anything infected with the GOO will take on Primate DNA, and if they Program it with the Markers/Code of a Reptile then the GOO will pass on Reptile DNA to Organic Life.

This seems to be what the Advent was leaning Towards, which if this is CORRECT or its Pretty Close to how they wish to have the GOO looked at.  Then while it makes this stuff easier to Explain HOW it can have a unique Reaction to every Organism and pass it off as a MCGUFFIN it does then have to make us THINK that the Black Goo Xenomorph/Deacon Related stuff was not based of anything, but Specifically Programed in order to Achieve something and so the Mural would then be to SHOWCASE the Results of what they wanted to Achieve or what the Base GOO was Programed to Represent.  This route does then pose that the Fresco are Not Significant at all.

It also then makes us Wonder... WHY the Sacrifice Scene, if this Stuff can be Programed to Alter DNA in anyway they Choose... WHY not just Pour the GOO all over a WORLD? This is why i think the OLDER Spaights Plan worked best.

The only way this makes sense is IF the World had no Organic Life that it could Imprint its CODE onto (Alien Covenant/Advent claims it only effects the MEAT)  Which could fit as that World (Sacrificial Scene) does have Plant Life... but there cant be that without Basic Life Forms.

So the GOO to work as the Advent Claims and NEED a Sacrifice must mean that it is not ideal to be used on Basic Life, and a more Advanced Life-Form is needed so its DNA can be used to Imprint what ever the Desired Results are...  so without any Sacrifice the GOO would not be effective enough to lead to Complex Life by infecting Basic Organisms alone.  I guess this does fit with the whole SACRIFICIAL Requirement to Create Life.

But this means LIFE Evolved from a Hybrid of the Engineer DNA and what ever it was Programed with... but then the Advent is also hinting that this Substance can not only be Programed to Change the Genetic Markers of Life, it be use Programed or Activated to Destroy/Delete Certain Genetic Markers.

This makes the Black Goo a very Viable Bio-Weapon Tool to Wipe the Slate Clean but only Certain Organisms... because maybe it can be Programed to TARGET Organisms with Genetic Markers Close to Primates so that on Earth Humans, Apes, Monkeys will be Eradicated but other Life-Forms are either untouched or they break down to then reform back into New Life... where as the Programmed Goo would not allow Organisms with Primate DNA to Evolve/Reset but instead these Organisms Genetic Material just become Dead....  

This could explain the effect on the Engineers in the Bombardment i suppose.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Aug-03-2018 8:33 AM

"now scientists believe ALL life started in the sea. well theres a waterfall "

In context to the GOO this is something i looked at quite a while ago on here, when David looked at the Goo on his Finger in Prometheus it appeared like it was floating in some liquid, like Granules of Sand in a Tube of Water.

Every Mutation we see with the GOO does appear to also show contact with a Liquid Source....   

*The Water Fall/Lake in Prometheus.

*Holloways Drink in Prometheus.

The Urns seem to be made of components, where the Glass Vials are a internal part that contain the Pathogen.. Do these indeed contain a Liquid inside that the Black Stuff needs in order to be effective?

But we also see the Vials are Surrounded by that Slime, is this actually a Liquid (Alcoholic Spirits especially those around 20% Turn into a Slime like Substance when they are in Freezing Temperatures instead of Freezing to ICE).  And so the Slime around those Ampoules Acts as a Catalyst Liquid that the Goo Requires to work?

This is a connection i had pondered on here before.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Aug-03-2018 3:33 PM

@ali81

Just to bring this back on track and answer your question. 

The teardrop ship incident involved the Gods (who Ridley decided we should not see). The sacrifice is profoundly ritualistic and "High".

It is intended to introduce us to a mythos where God Engineers the development of life. That is done by combining two qualities which will help speed up the civilising process and development of the species.  a) the unique acolyte and b) the catalyser. 

So the two elements are transmitting into the eco system of the world they seed, a currency which leads to evolved species. All you need to think about is what would you need to get you from very not civilised to very advanced civilised. 

If you go with Prometheus the mutagen is very straightforward. It mutates and creates supra creational outcomes which change (worms fifield and charlie). It also has had an interesting effect when attached to male sperm a) it fertilised Elizabeth and b) created its own child in a non consensual pregnancy so its echoing the A L I E N lifecycle. 

How do we get from very good catalyser (forget Spaihts we didn't do that) to very bad mutagen. The one useful idea that comes out of Advent is radical A I is the base sequence. Much more important than all this is how did we get from very good to very bad period thats a story and well worth telling/explaining.   

 

Michelle Johnston

Aug-03-2018 3:38 PM

Just briefly Covenant. The reason that Shaw and the Engineers were turned over was plot point convenient. So naturally the reason for doing what he did is tenuous to say the very least. But the most illogical thing is to use the Mutagen simply to kill everything so he can sit in his shabby cave for 10 years. Since being transmitted through space its gone from being a mutator where living material changes to a pathogen where everyone just dies. Bonkers but then the entire franchise is now supposed to turn on a mad robot (by their own admission). 

Michelle Johnston

Aug-03-2018 3:51 PM

@BigDave

I do not find you pushy at all quite the opposite. I reduce everything to there story telling virtues thats the only point of ANYTHING (WHETHER THE BIG PICTURE, NARRATIVE OR CHARACTER) whereas you spread out into a kind of encyclopaedic hedging of bets and pull in the discarded and the possibly relevant add ons. As an example I will write "Elizabeth Shaw was the audiences proxy and so says Mr Lindelof" and then you work your way round underneath and on top of the subject instead of simply saying "Yep". Of the two of us I am the pushy one I make my mind up and move on.  

MonsterZero

Aug-03-2018 5:34 PM

"Bonkers but then the entire franchise is now supposed to turn on a mad robot (by their own admission). "

Mad/bad robot or mad/bad human, I really don't see the difference.

What/who else is going to carry the plot?

Xenomorph's piloting their spaceships to Earth...maybe dropping pods onto major cities? Only so many plots for our favorite space bug.

I don't like David and would just as soon have him terminated in the first 5 minutes of the next movie....but then we'd be back to square one. Hero based horror movie.  A return to evil corp perhaps. 

I don't like to say it...but David is a breath of fresh air.

Blackwinter-witch

Aug-04-2018 12:27 AM

I always liked to think that the opening of PROMETHEUS was not Earth, but some other world, maybe on the other side of the galaxy...but given how little we actually KNOW, it could be any planet, anywhere.

Still, I absolutely love the landscape shots of the entire opening sequence.

I've always wondered what else the Engineers were up to...
Have they created/exterminated other species similar to Humans?
That's just one thing I wonder about.

*Man's giant leap was just a stumble in the dark.*

Michelle Johnston

Aug-04-2018 11:37 AM

@MonsterZero

What else might have carried the plot.

a) That someone is travelling the galaxy terraforming and catalysing the raw material of species.

b) That we receive an explanation as to why the above connects with LV 223 and LV 426.

c) That with a faith based biological humanoid searching for answers and a synthetic searching for meaning and a soul who are connected by consequences we join them on their journey. 

BUT

There are two reasons why that would never have happened :-

1) You hi-jack the alien monster nature of the franchise with thought and nuance and permission to work it out and embroider.

2) People are not interested in existential horror and the mystery of uncertainty they want Alien to deliver blood, gore and attitude.

So David is an uneasy compromise where a robot (might be interested) is a psychopath (not interested) who wants to create (oh really) because he is superior (by sitting in a cave on a rotting Paradise) how amazing. 

I Moon Girl

Aug-04-2018 3:56 PM

Michelle Johnston said, "

What else might have carried the plot.

a) That someone is travelling the galaxy terraforming and catalysing the raw material of species.

b) That we receive an explanation as to why the above connects with LV 223 and LV 426.

c) That with a faith based biological humanoid searching for answers and a synthetic searching for meaning and a soul who are connected by consequences we join them on their journey. "

I like those points and I think that would've made a great sequel to Prometheus.  Especially Point 'C'. 

I like you Points #1&2 because it really spells out why we got Alien: Covenant and not a proper sequel to Prometheus.

Alien: Covenant just seemed to twisted to meet the typical idea of what an ALIEN movie should be.  I do enjoy some fear in my ALIEN movies and without that, I feel like it is not an ALIEN movie.  The whole movie doesn't have to induce horror.  It just needs to have one scene to make a person scared.  Everything else can just serve as a build-up.  Of course, I'm sure not everyone will be scared with my way, so it's best to put a few scary spots in the movie to be sure.

I liked the kind of fear Prometheus led me to feel.  The big one that I remember instantly is when the blue holograms started running through the corridor.  At that moment I was like, "Get out! JUST GET OUT!"  My memories of me watching that are just great.  Reminiscent of the original ALIEN movie.

Even in a proper Prometheus sequel, David still could be a little crazy.  I mean, I would if I had to watch people die as I just continued to live on, alone, with everything I wanted to learn, learned.  I think that is why David is so interested in the Black Goo.  It's something new and never before seen from David's human interactions.  Something so new, mysterious, and obviously powerful.  One would surely not waste their time learning about it and eventually deciding whether to apply it or not.

I really think Point 'C' would provide an interesting base of a story.  Both are looking for an answer that is considered to be a foundation for a meaningful life.  What makes it even more interesting is that one is a human and another is an android.  So, what happens when love falls into the mix?  It probably would eventually since one is a woman and the other possibly associates with male tendencies (or at least knows about them).

Still, one thing that I REALLY like about Alien: Covenant is that it is completely different, yet caries the same story.  It's something fresh and new.  It could almost stand alone as a movie in itself, but I have seen Prometheus first, so maybe not.  Still, I do think it could be a stand alone movie because it is so different and new.  Alien: Covenant makes me excited about the possible Alien: Awakening because I expect it will also be something new and completely different and we just can't really predict what is going to be in it.

Still, I would hope Prometheus 2 wouldn't just be Shaw and David talking to Engineers and learning their ways.  I would hope it wouldn't be really mysterious either like how Prometheus was since I don't think it would make sense to just remake Prometheus, but put it at another time than when the first took place.

I also don't think asking the writers to figure that out would be a problem though. 

 

ignorantGuy

Aug-04-2018 8:03 PM

@Michelle Johnston And the shift generated complain that Ac hijack the series into Blade Runner territories. There was no compromise however. They though that MF is very bankable so give him 2 roles, Rapace is not so kill her off, simple arithmetic for Fox. But they were not quite right.

@I Moon Girl I can't understand what you see original in Covenant. The music is nostalgic, lines from it are nostalgic, they run around in dark corridors. They pumped up the gruesomeness and the sadism.

And you know what? we also know the story will unfold, David being overthrown by the Xenomorph (biblical David's fall starts with his messing around with the Queen of Sheba) and quite probably be the Space Jockey (the final biomechanic form of the alien). So what is new here? Oooops, we had robo porn mags, that was indeed new.

Michelle Johnston

Aug-04-2018 10:01 PM

@I Moon Girl

First of all I really appreciate the way you considered my post thought about it and responded and did not go off on tangents. I will do the same. 

Prometheus 2

Prometheus was made and presented on the basis that "you would not get to see God in the first movie" It really is very important when thinking of where it should have gone to put your mind in 2012 mode not 2018.

The first film set up a series of questions which had to be answered in the second film. What were those questions well I have already posed them. So your right Prometheus 2 had to be different to Prometheus 1. You just cannot go to another disaster and find a bigger disaster with bigger questions. You cannot repeat yourself and heres the thing why not continue the story why not pose questions in film 1 and answer  them in film 2. What were the questions :-

1) Elizabeths search for our creators and where do we go when we die is now why did you create us and want to kill us and where do we go when we die.

2) Davids curiosity fuelled by Peter Weyland and the question of what is a soul given he has been told he doesn't have one. Becomes what do now I am free of Peter Weyland and what is a soul.

Elizabeths faith enables her to travel in the notion there is a soul whereas  David doesn't know what a soul is. Equally he killed Elizabeths lover and lead her to become pregnant with a parasitical replacement embryo and then she heals him and shows him more compassion than he has ever seen before. If there isn't story there I would be very surprised.  

Then you have the geo political issues of Teardrop/Catalyser verses Planetoid/Mutagen what is the connection how do you get from one to another.

Thats it quite simple in the narrative arc sense but then you can get into those questions Creation/Death/Soul the all about everything approach.

ALIEN COVENANT  

To enjoy art certainly a movie I need a mediator some one I care about. if you think about every single remark about the potential follow up to this film ALL of it is about whose gonna be in it (W-Y,Engineers,Colonists) none of its about a character we identify with. David is a psychopathic robot who will say do anything I sincerely hope no one here feels warm and cuddly about that.  

However yesterday I noted that critics suggested MF blew NR off the screen and that MF was therefore the preferred choice . Personally I felt they both made the film in their different ways. I also think that analysis  is incorrect A C had to get the Xenomorph front and centre to see off A 5 and Ridley saw the interest in A 5 as a reaction to not having the Xeno I am fairly certain he now knows he was correct in the first instance. The reasons that Elizabeth and the Engineers were nixed was repositioning for the Xeno nothing more nothing less.

ignorantGuy

Aug-04-2018 11:56 PM

@I Moon Girl to further accentuate the originality of Alien Covenant we have:

1. the second in command gets face-hugged and chest-bursted in both A1 and AC

2. a Dallas in A1 and a Tennessee in AC

3. a Ferro dropship pilot in A2 and a Faris lander pilot in AC.

4. Xenomorph killed by ejecting it into space A1, A2, A4, AC.

Yes, AC is fully original , not just a nastier version of a Best of Alien Series.

MonsterZero

Aug-05-2018 6:45 AM

"4. Xenomorph killed by ejecting it into space A1, A2, A4, AC."

Actually that would be a cool way for David to meet his demise...ejected into space...waiting to burn up in an atmosphere or smashing onto LV426? Gravity sucks!

I Moon Girl

Aug-05-2018 10:49 AM

@ignorantGuy

Taking your first comments to me, and what I supposed is heavy sarcasm in the second comments taken into consideration, I can see where there are similarities to Alien:Covenant and the rest of the franchise.

Still, let's just ignore the Xeno references (Points #1 & #4).  I'm not sure I get your Point #2.  Point #3 just seems, to me, to be more of a necessity of the private and public accessibility of space travel.  Any large ship is going to HAVE to have some kind of small ship to go to a planet.  I don't consider Point #3 to be a similarity. 

A:C, to me, is different than other movies in the franchise because we get more of a philosophical and musing approach that seems to drive the basis of the story.  The Xeno is kind of the point in the movie because we are SUPPOSEDLY learning how the Xeno came to exist.  Still, seeing the Xeno in action is only a quarter of the movie or so.  In Alien, Aliens, Alien3, & Alien:Resurrection, I would say that the Xeno is in action for at least half the movie to be general about it.  A person could easily argue for three quarters of the movie or more, but I have never ACTUALLY timed how long the Xeno in action is driving the story.  I guess the Neomorph is kind of acting in the Xeno's place, but the big difference in A:C is that David is in the mix.  So, David brings the colonists into protection and then the Neomorph problem is essentially gone and David gets to run the story.  Eventually the Neomorph comes back into play, but it eventually gets shot down and the story moves back to David driving it again.

In A:C, we get more of a anatomical gore that is a part of the franchise, but hasn't been at this level and especially in the way it was shown in A:C.  In previous movies, the anatomical gore was more of learning from what exists like in the facehugger dissections.  In A:C, we see a mad scientist who's goes even madder as the movie goes on.

We also get to listen to David and is highly arrogant and superior attitude which is heavily influenced by philosophy, poetry, art, science, and culture and we get to observe his clever, well-thought out actions.  In a sense, he's kind of like a Renaissance Man, similar to his "father".

The last time we got anything close to this was in Alien3, yet those persons were more religious, while David is more of a self-proclaimed god.

I can love Alien: Covenant JUST as long as the possible Alien: Awakening is something different and A:C isn't just used as a template for the last of the prequels.  IF A:C is an example of how all ALIEN movies should be made, then the franchise is dead.  Still, if it's one way of making a movie out of the whole franchise, I can love it for what it is... as something different.  I think it's a good decision to make the movies in a large franchise different is some ways because ALIEN would never work as a franchise if the same things just get repeated over and over again.  Still, I have to admit that A:C is probably my least favorite of the franchise at the moment.  Still, it's only a little over a year old too, so things could change.

ignorantGuy

Aug-05-2018 11:37 AM

I Moon Girl Maybe poets are artists are arrogant, but philosophy (which kind of philosophy did you even see there?)  and science are concerned with finding out of Truth, and one can not be arrogant in that pursuit. And judging about that he mis-understands Ozymandias (not only misquotes it) and even Lawrence of Arabia, where a strange guy tries to help people in need, he is perfectly ok with killing them, so I guess, ultimately he does not understand it also.

And what about his clever plan. Rotting away in his private hell, alone even if he seemed to long for companionship (which he raped and killed). He send a message from a cloaked planet, so people would stumble there by chance, have an Synth who looks just like him even thought there were more than 70 years before there creation dates. How convenient that in the future there will be no face-lifts for products, even though the previous generation had problems (exactly the same that were between Ash and Bishop... even more originality here). In short this plan is a series of lucky coincidences. unless there will be revealed that a great conspiracy was going on all along. 

But please enjoy if you can.

IndyFront

Aug-05-2018 6:33 PM

I think it was simply a scene meant to demonstrate the Engineers' capabilities and pivotal role in life itself. It could have just as likely have been Earth as it could have been Paradise as it could have been literally ANY other planet the Engineers seeded life upon. I see it as a general but important scene demonstrating the Engineers essentially liquefying their own DNA into a reverse-pathogen seeding life throughout the universe...

 

But thats just my opinion.

Michelle Johnston

Aug-06-2018 12:18 AM

@I Moon Girl

I have seen people try and connect what I call "The Cave Element" of A-C to Shelley's Frankenstein because its sub title is "The New Prometheus." Mary's choice of sub title is entirely right but to try and suggest the sub text of the two pieces of art are connected when the emotional environment of the creatures are like not even close does not work. 

If you then work through the signposts or otherwise.

Michael's delivery of the Ozymandias lines come across to me in the first person and thats not helped by him uttering them before he releases the Urns in "The Crossing." Whereas its context is 3rd person historical. Shelley meets a traveller who tells him the story and offers him the revelation of the inscription. The people recounting the tale are observing not participating. So one traveller can offer it another but neither are responsible.       

In Prometheus David is brought down by the Engineer in Lawrence of Arabia Lawrence is brought down by his encounter in Dera'a. He is a changed man, humbled seeking peace. The narrative in LOA is then driven by Allenby's and Fiesel's manipulations before he is finally free whereas the narrative of A-C begins with his recovery in Elizabeth care not dissimilar to Ali's role. Somehow when A-C starts up LOA has gone to the birds.

If a robot is obsessed by a movie character and finds his own narrative in him and is fascinated by a real person so much that he interrogates her sub conscious then that should mean something in the narrative and  if it no longer does then why.    

BigDave

Aug-06-2018 5:12 PM

Certainly Michelle.. i do like to go into to much detail, i'm like that in real life, often over explain stuff when getting to the point is better ;)

I certainly think Dr Shaw was our Proxy, maybe i am confusing what a Proxy means so forgive me...  I think it meant that she is the ONE Character we are supposed to connect to as far as the Journey from a Humans Point of view...  Ridley Scott was posing Questions that indeed a lot of people would like to ask, some of the Biggest Questions in Life,  IS there a GOD, is there a AFTER-LIFE (but it was more about a Soul) She was brought up with Religion/Faith but undertook Scientific Endeavors to find out the Truth, and Connections with Ancient Civilizations which then leads her to find a Connection between Ancient Mythos and Cultures and Alien Visitors.   So then Shaws Findings would kind of Contradict her Faith.... so she would now also want to know  ARE these beings who left those Star Maps our Gods, and if so HOW Godlike are they, WHY the Created us, WHY they never came back.  Which after the Discovers she found out, left her with some Answers and so as to not keep going on... she was then wanting to find out WHY we was created, to then be Destroyed, and then holding onto her Faith she hopes to discover there is more to it than this and WHO created them.

She would have been who we can connect with for those answers, and its a SHAME she was killed off, because its hard to put someone else in this Role Now...

I Felt David was a Vessel to be used to show us the None-Human side, to Propose Ponder, that there is nothing Special about Creation and to get us to ask WHAT is a Soul... and also follow with the Rebellion/Creation themes that we see in many Cultures, be it GOD vs Fallen Angels, Titans vs Olympians and Mankind vs Synthetics

A lot of Philosophy, and Questions and ways to Expand/Explain HOW/WHY the Engineers and their creators are connected to OUR Mythos and Religions etc.

With Dr Shaw Killed off, and those Engineers but leaving a little bit of clues, it appears those Themes and Philosophies are not important no more and all that is... is HOW/WHEN/WHY the Xenomorph was created and ends up on the Derelict.

which is a Shame... as going away from Alien could have set us on a Journey with unlimited potential, but now we are heading on a Spoon Fed Joining the dots up to ALIEN route that Prometheus had initially not planed at all.

I look forwards to your work, as it appears those Questions may not be answered in the Future, or at least not how Prometheus had set up.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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