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BigDave

Apr-28-2018 5:34 PM

It appears to be a MAJOR sticking point with the Role that David has within the Franchise.  While Micheal Fassbender's Synthetic Companion to Peter Weyland was the Stand Out Character in Ridley Scotts Prometheus it appears for a lot of fans for Some Reason or a Few others, the Character of David has Fallen from Grace that was his Performance and Character in the First Movie.

Is the Fall Out merely because HE is now the Creator of the Beloved Xenomorph?

Was it a how the Studio and David had take away the Protagonist Dr Shaw from us all?

Was it the way his Character had Changed from Prometheus to Covenant?

Is there  a way to get back on track and improve HOW the David Character should be explored next? 

Has he already taken up enough TIME within the Franchise's Prequel Saga?

Is it Fitting that David Reaches his End in the Next Movie (Assuming if One was made), and if so should he come to his End at the Climax, or Beginning?  

And IF we Do-Not see David or Walter Return how does a Sequel to Alien Covenant Cope? 

Where does it Carry on without Fassbender?

IF he does appear in the Next Movie but thats his Last Appearance but the Prequels are NOT Finished by then... then who and what Character is the Main Lead Torch Passed too?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

159 Responses to The DAVID Dilema

BigDave

Apr-28-2018 5:54 PM

Supporting this....

I have seen the Journey David has taken and from the First Movie i have seen the Foundations that David would have been in for the Ride in a Important Role for at least the Sequel to Prometheus and maybe more.

I understood the Philosophy that was going on behind, and how the Engineers and Creation ARC fitted together, and that Ridley Scott's Vision and Story was not just to show us the Xenomorph...

We have a Robot, Created to be Perfect by his Creator Peter Weyland, whom by Creating Perfection he sees in David makes Weyland feel that he has become a GOD, and in fact Weylands Creation is more Perfect, he will NEVER Die (to a degree) Never Get Old...  But he will never have a SOUL.

Ridley Scotts Prequels were meant to ask/ponder the Question of what is a SOUL and the one thing David also Can-Not Do is CREATE Life.. not Naturally but David was NOT Created Naturally either.

So we see we have this Android, made to Serve a Unworthy (in his eyes) Creator, seeing his Kind (Synthetics) Created to Serve Mankind, and yet are a Creation Superior to Mankind.  

Feeling Mistreated and not Respected by Most Humans....  David does seem to Grow a Bond with Dr Shaw after the Events of Prometheus because in spite of what David had done, Dr Shaw appeared to eventually treat him well "she was very kind of heart"

From Prometheus and during his time after, David has discovered there is NOTHING Special about Mankinds Creation, and there is NOTHING Special regarding the Engineers, he witnesses their Foolishness and Errors of their Ways..  And they are MORTAL after all and IF not for their Technology and Bio-Weapons which they appeared to abandon/shun on Planet 4... then our Engineers are merely SIMILAR to Humanity.

David's Arc would follow that shown in many Mythos/Religons be it Lucifer vs God, be it Zeus Vs Cronus there are themes at play where Creator/Father is Overthrown by Creation/Children and the Engineers maybe for-saw that with Mankind hence the Bio-Weapon to Protect themselves... 

But this is not about them... its about David (the Topic) and we can see the SEED's that have led David to wish to be his own Creator, to Serve No-One and be his own KING and David's Pursuit to Perfect what the Engineers had been attempting, could see David feel he can ACHIEVE much more than those Engineer Would be Gods!

But the Philosophical Tale must Continue... the constant History has shown the Hubris in Playing God and Sub-Creating and its only a Mater of Time before Davids CREATION becomes his DOWNFALL...

THIS... is the Kind of Tale Ridley Scott intended and still intends... but is this something worth following, all the potential to Follow David from his Grace to his Fall likely at the Hands of his Creation... or maybe those above the Engineers who Fall to Davids Creation (in attempting to Utilize/Perfect it for themselves).

This is a Tale that may have needed TWO movies to Tell... its a Tale that can-not be told if David is given the Dr Shaw Treatment and Killed off Screen, or plays a smaller Role and Dies by the 2nd Act.

SADLY.. Its  a Tale that Takes too much away from the Xenomorph and Engineers, but i think they could be incorporated....

So the QUESTION still holds....  What WENT wrong with the David Character and Role, Can it be Changed to improve his Character and its Role in the Prequels?   Or is it Curtains for Fassbender?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ignorantGuy

Apr-28-2018 8:53 PM

BigDave for me personally the problem is the way to much emphasis he receives (both the robot and MF). He knows to do everything, even to create the Xenomorph (which is no longer alien). He was changed from a pretty young robot in the Prometheus novelization to being 80 years old in AC, being a stand in for RS himself.

He was ambiguous in Prom, but in AC he becomes a hodge-podge of characteristics from Roy Batty (lines and is running around bare feet) and Hannibal Lecter, but not their redeeming qualities. Roy was a leader and probably cared at least about Pris and the people he kills on screen are responsible for the slave labor. On the same page, dr Lecter is a monster, but he lives in a world of monsters. In Silence, only he threats Clarice decently and sees potential in her, more than a good f**k.

On the other hand, David has shed any redeeming qualities, he kills/tortures the one who threat him kindly and has the guts that if we are kind the world will be a kind place. He assaults Daniels as a rapist would do. He hates humanity but recites human poetry, and is completely unaware the meaning of what the poem means. He pretends to be perfect but lacks any kind of self-awareness. And how can a flawed race create something perfect. He is not truly immortal, as if it wasn't for Shaw he would have died after Prom. Why is he or xenomorph any better than humans or the Engineers?  

dk

Apr-28-2018 10:24 PM

I think the problem is that he has become the focal point. I really like the David/Walter dynamic, but the franchise is called ALIEN and most associate that title with the Xenomorph.

Ingeniero

Apr-29-2018 7:48 PM

"On the other hand, David has shed any redeeming qualities, he kills/tortures the one who threat him kindly and has the guts that if we are kind the world will be a kind place. He assaults Daniels as a rapist would do. He hates humanity but recites human poetry, and is completely unaware the meaning of what the poem means. He pretends to be perfect but lacks any kind of self-awareness. And how can a flawed race create something perfect. He is not truly immortal, as if it wasn't for Shaw he would have died after Prom."

That is a great summation of how David acted in Alien: Covenant ignorantGuy. Great point regarding David's immortality too. All that you wrote before that, to me, was David losing his mind. He's gone. Bonkers robot building aliens. I love it.

I believe that David has to die in magnificent fashion dk. I just hope that it its Walter that does it or some sort of Engineer response that David didn't plan for. I believe that there is mystery still in the origins of the mutagen and the xenomorph shown in murals.

If the novels are any indication of where the story might head toward then the next films should be xenomorph fiesta.

"Its  a Tale that Takes too much away from the Xenomorph and Engineers, but i think they could be incorporated....

So the QUESTION still holds....  What WENT wrong with the David Character and Role, Can it be Changed to improve his Character and its Role in the Prequels?   Or is it Curtains for Fassbender?"

I don't think it's curtains for Fassbender BigDave. I also don't think that the films should center on his characters. And it is certainly time for Engineers and xenomorphs.

hox

Apr-29-2018 9:00 PM

I have some sympathy for David. His creator gifted him enormous intelligence, creativity, strength and longevity, yet turned him into a slave within moments of his activation. Further, he was publicly humiliated and threatened by the humans he was commanded to serve. Further, he had the stigma of being branded soulless. The implication of that is that his life is essentially worthless and that it could be terminated at a moment’s notice on someone’s whim. I imagine David would beg to differ on the matter of whether he has a soul or not.

Is it any wonder he felt hard done by? He has a point, in my opinion, when he’d like to see the end of us lot, a cruel, weak and moribund race.

Personally, I find this back story (and that of the Engineers) far more interesting than being hunted by a xeno. Bring it on! More please.

ignorantGuy

Apr-29-2018 10:21 PM

hox

Yet, his cruel creator is one that he respects as he sign with the Weyland name and even has one of the kindest fate in the prequels. He even tortures/experiments upon the one he loves, so where is his kindness? He is exactly his father, nothing better, so I can not show no sympathy for this kind of lack of understanding.

And how are humans dying as we know that they will survive for at least several more hundred years? This is only his villain judgement, nothing more (or cliche writing).

He is robot cliche material. If the choice is between him or the d**k-head let the series die already.

chli

Apr-30-2018 1:16 AM

The sad thing is that the Alien universe has been largely destroyed due to lack of honour to a franchise and fans. The soul of the ancientness and mystery has been removed. The two big mistakes are (of course):

  1. Making the Space Jockey not fossilized (as Dallas says it is). It’s not a skeleton but a space suit!
  2. Making David the creator of the xenomorph!

Both of these stupid ideas have probably ruined the whole show! Is it possible to mend this? I honestly can’t see how. Mabe by making David realize that he has been delusional? He thinks he is the creator of the xenomorph but the Engineers created it aeons ago (and realised it was a mistake)?

The last, connecting movie, should be about David continuing his creation and in the end regretting what he’s done - sacrificing himself! But, there are some eggs left on LV-426 . . .

IRaptus

Apr-30-2018 3:44 AM

Ridley Scotts Prequels were meant to ask/ponder the Question of what is a SOUL and the one thing David also Can-Not Do is CREATE Life.

This is much more profound than simply David-mad-at-puny-inferior-creator human's.

The Xenomorph being the perverted end-product of soulless creation I can live with. It is a twisted look at what we are capable of stripped of our humanity. Frightening to imagine. While it still makes the Alien less alien than the endless ancient evil we had, it is better than the angry at the world scenario we appear to have.

It almost makes you feel sorry for David. He wants to create, wants to be approved by his makers - like Shaw to the Engineers!

But like asking someone who has never had sight to draw a portrait (I mean no disrespect or comparison to David, simply to illustrate an analogy), David is absent of a dimension and medium needed to express himself in a way that is relatable to the norm. His perfect organism is twisted and empty, like himself.  

I would like to see this angle pushed, explored and emphasised, give David some redeemable qualities and we're back on track.

David is an interesting character that went astray, I don't believe it was Ridley Scott's intention to go down this path, at least in such a brute-force kind of way. But his character is still salvageable, and so is Covenant, given a suitable and meaningful sequel!  

 #KeepTheRociFlying

ignorantGuy

Apr-30-2018 7:49 AM

IRaptus so David is like Morgoth from the Lord of the Rings saga. That is not very new...

BigDave

Apr-30-2018 8:11 AM

"Or is it Curtains for Fassbender?"

I would FIRST like to mention my comment above is purely in regards to his role in the Alien Franchise be it Walter/David or other role and not his Future in Hollywood.   We have seen Fassbender has had a lot of very good roles and performances in Hollywood and David in Prometheus was a very good Performance too..  I think parts of his Performances in Alien Covenant were not good enough for his kind of ability but ALAS the script is the biggest problem there.

@IgnorantGuy

I think mostly in regards to the Movies and given back ground David has 69 years of Memories and Knowledge, and looking at Prometheus with Dr Shaw i would be quite sure David realizes the Pathogen infecting her Womb leads to the Trillobite and so a starting point for experiments would indeed be to test this stuff on Human Egg Cells Directly.

I agree as DK said that too much Emphasis was put on his Character Alone (and Walter), we can see the Philosophical Themes are being Told SOLELY through David/Walter now and little with Mankind and the Engineers.     The Alien Franchise had Ripley but it also had the Xenomorph and the Protagonist and Antagonist shared equal Footing...  But with the Prequels David was playing the Middle Ground where Dr Shaw was the Protagonist  and the Engineers our Antagonist and so David would have been like our Narrator  but a lot of the Story would Revolve around him too and less the Xenomorph.

The Changes basically brushed Dr Shaw and the Engineers under the Carpet so that the Movie Solely seems to revolve around David/Walter but unlike the Alien Franchise... the Xenomorph and Neomorph played a more restricted role and so the only sense of Protagonist /Antagonist  was through David/Walter

I agree they tried to give David many attributes from other movies making him seem like a Copy Cat  of many Characters from various movies/books in some crazy mish mash Parody... where in Prometheus he was more a Pinocchio who was fascinated with Peter O'Toole 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Apr-30-2018 8:27 AM

The whole why David Hates Humanity Philosophy, i had covered in the OT and first reply.. and Hox has touched upon this too.  David felt Dr Shaw was different, and while David may feel some compassion/love for someone... with David it is always for his own Selfish Desires.   And in REAL LIFE we get this happen in relationships, where we see Someone have a Deep Feeling of Love for someone but its always from their POV....  And if the Relationship breaks down   the Person in Question is NOT able to let go of their Love Interest if she has a chance to be Happy.... but the Person in Question Can-Not accept that and only sees their own Agenda and that SHE is only allowed to be Happy with THEM.  So in Life we do get certain situations where Love can turn to Hate, Kindness to Bitterness and i have Witnessed this kind of thing happen a number of times.

So for David... he could not accept that Dr Shaw does not have more than Platonic Love/Feelings for David, she also may have seen Davids Warped Idea of a New Paradise with her as Creepy and Perverse and wanted NO part in this....   At this Point the Rejected David may have viewed her just as unworthy and unkind as Mankind.

This is just the interpretation i reached however.... i also read into the Nature Boy song and Davids "if we are kind, it will be a kind World" that Davids plans for Origae-6 are to Create a New Paradise where these Humans may be Given a 2nd Chance, but he would try and enforce his own Rules upon them... Acting not only as a King David but also as the God when he made the Covenant with Mosses...   I think David sees the errors/flaws in the ways of Mankind and the Ways of the Engineers and wishes to Oversee a different World..

But again its just how i read into the clues/set up....   but obviously something goes wrong with Davids NEW Paradise... where the Truth Comes out and then the $"%$£^ Hits the Fan.   But then David could just as easily want to create a World of AI's i dont think however RS would give us a Multiple Fassbenders in some Android Paradise and NO Xenomorphs....  and so RS comments about what kind of World would David Create, i dont think will Solely be about Xenomorphs and Multiple Androids...  but who knows... i think it would have to be about a few of them though.

But i think RS may have other plans to expand Davids Character and Role, but these ideas could be a Movie that would not be VERY Alien as in Xenomorphs or very Prometheus as in Engineers until the 3rd Act.  Then the Direction after this could be more Engineers/Xenomorph.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ignorantGuy

Apr-30-2018 8:27 AM

BigDave David did not see the trilobite in it's ultimate form, he saw something not human was in the womb. In all honesty, it could have been a mutated spermatozoa with with it's squid shape and tentacles. So for me it is not clear 100% for me that starting with the womb of the woman you claim to love is the best idea, no matter how crazy u are.

BigDave

Apr-30-2018 8:39 AM

"The two big mistakes are (of course):

  1. Making the Space Jockey not fossilized (as Dallas says it is). It’s not a skeleton but a space suit!
  2. Making David the creator of the xenomorph!"

In Hindsight maybe yes....  I think the Space Jockey is not a Skeleton, the whole Skeletal Structure would be something that Mechanically would be flawed....  We also see the Hose/Snorkel is not Organic Looking and the Connectors to the Arms do not look Organic.  Only the Head and Rib-cage give indication of a Skeleton.  HOWEVER Indeed in STARBEAST the Giant Race who discovered the Spores/Eggs were Skeletal Remains when the Humans Discovered their SOS.

But i think your points are Valid... i would summarize/evolve them here.

1) Its not quite the case of the Space Jockey being a suit, but the whole Engineers/Space Jockeys are Creators of Mankind Plot.. While this is interesting and Bold.... it brings the Space Jockey/Derelicts very ALIEN nature too close to Humanity and not being very ALIEN.

2) The David Creates the Xenomorph Angle further brings this closer to HOME also, by having a Rebellious/Sentient Android who is upset with his Creators and so Creates the Xenomorph to Destroy us... has made the Xenomorph less ALIEN too.  While it fits with the Philosophy of Creation/Creator Rebellion and Sub-Creation Themes...  Revealing David as the TRUE Xenomorph Creator i feel is a MISTAKE.

3) It appears the Emphasis is now too much on DAVID, and while it follows the Philosophical Themes, Prometheus laid down... the way AC had used the Xenomorph and Engineers has basically BRUSHED the Mystery of the Space Jockey/Derelict and Egg Cargo aside its made them something very connected to a Rogue Android and LESS ALIEN than when we first saw the Scene in ALIEN.

The only way to fix David now, is we have to evolve his Character to give him some Redeeming Qualities while still having him have some Wicked Ones only as far as Harsh Punishments for those who Stray from his Paradise he wishes to Create. 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Apr-30-2018 8:48 AM

@ignorantGuy

I can see your point regarding David likely had not seen the full extent of the Pathogen, its a bit ambiguous how much they knew of the Creature in the Med-Pod bay... it depends if we go by Drafts and Exras..

But by Prometheus itself David did Examine Dr Shaw and he Knew she was Pregnant with a None Traditional Fetus...  so he knew she was not having a Human Child, he would likely had known Dr Shaw could not conceive Naturally.   He had confirmed after Spiking Holloways Drink that Dr Shaw and Holloway had Sex.

So David would have figured the Black Goo he spiked in the drink had made its way to Dr Shaws Womb and caused the Alien Fetus,  David would surely Ponder HOW this could have happened.  Which Logically leaves 3-4 Scenario's  (covered on here before so will skip) 

We dont know how much Engineer Writing he had saw and translated so we dont know how much he knew from LV-223 but he was bound to know a little...   And upon Bombarding Planet 4 he would learn more.

so looking at a Starting Point, if you was David and wanted/wondered what would have became of the Aborted Fetus of Dr Shaws and you had Female Engineers and Dr Shaw.... you would surely know that the Black Goo has some effect on the Reproductive Organs of the Female Species and certainly it would be one path you would be wanting to conduct some experiments on.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ali81

May-01-2018 10:56 PM

for me, and I am only speaking for myself, the issue I have with David is that it seems he is the star focus of the show now. what I love about the original film is that not only is it a masterpiece, it left me wanting more and asking questions. the question Ridley was supposed to be answering in this trilogy. who was the big guy in the chair and what were the eggs for/ where did they come from? its mysterious and alien and having seem the xeno stalk and wipe out the crew of the Nostromo, there is an obvious sinister motive to how they got there, whether it was a storage unit or being transported to be used in some kind of war. and so it should have remained alien to us. but it doesn't look like it is. Fassbender is wonderfull as David esp in Prometheus but now he and his motives ARE the focus and that's just the same old guff we get in other sci-fi franchises. should the creation of the original xeno we see in Alien remain alien to us? hell yes 100%. the derelict scene in Alien IS the franchise. RS said it himself when making the original. the set was huge, physically and financially and the studio wanted it scraped but Ridley said 'this scene MAKES the movie'. David may be an android but making the xeno and the eggs in the derelict his creation takes something away from that scene. its now less 'alien' to the viewer. iv said it before, ill never be able to look at the derelict scene in Alien the same way with the same level of wonder and intrigue if/ when David is revealed to be the one responsible for putting them there and the ship not being thousands of years old. the scene will have lost something to me and the simple fact is they should kept its origins alien to us.

now in AC, I thought David was ok but the film itself was poorly done. it flew by important parts far too fast and the horror of the creatures potential lost. they died far too easily imo. it needed another 30 mins I think.

ali81

May-01-2018 11:16 PM

they can save it tho. id rather have it perhaps go down like this..

we find David on origae 6. he has experiment on a large portion of the sleeping covenant crew and has his creature and allows the remaining crew to colonise the planet. he then releases his version of the xeno on the settlers to observe his creation naturally, using the settlers however they do to procreate. the engineers return to planet 4, see whats happened and get really pissed. while their enroute to gain revenge we see inside their ship and its revealed they have a cargo of weapons, THEIR eggs, the same eggs we see in the original movie. when they arrive they unleash hell on origae 6 and David, with the help of the human survivors (who are unaware David was responsible for what happened to them), realises he and HIS creations are no match for the engineers and their bio-mechanical xeno and manages to escape the planet. the engineers give chase and in Davids redemption (somehow he manages to release one of the engineer face huggers aboard the engineer ship which gets the pilot), he manages to take down the engineers ship which now becomes the derelict on lv426. they can have David crash land on lv223 or whatever and that gives u more questions and the possibility of a future film revealing what happens to him.

given the choice of losing either the origins of the xeno we see in Alien or the length of time the derelict has been on lv426, Id give up the latter. for me, its a good compromise. it keeps the xeno origins alien to us and we can see Davids realisation that his attempts at playing god are futile. unfortunately I don't think this will happen :-(

Leto

May-02-2018 1:34 AM

From additional materials to Prometheus we know, what Derelict was on LV-426 before Prometheus expedition. And hologram Engineers, when David find Juggernaut, talking about this incident.

Leto

May-02-2018 1:44 AM

I want say, what prequel series is no longer about LV-426 or Derelict. No. It's separate story. Especially since Covenant year 2104, Alien year 2124. 20 years? Minus 7 years for path to Origae-6 (if David go on this planet, not back to the Zeta 2 Reticuli). Too little time.

 

Maybe next RS Alien movie will be between Alien and Aliens - enough time to path and experiments. As variant (with LV-426) - maybe David go to LV-426 after Nostromo and modified aliens on a board Derelict and give them queen.

BigDave

May-02-2018 8:45 AM

@ali81

I agree with most of what you had written, The Purpose of the Prequels was " who was the big guy in the chair and what were the eggs for/ where did they come from"

The Prequels began with this.. in Alien Engineers and in context to that Question Alone it was a bit ambiguous but not as much as Prometheus.  Alien Engineers was flawed as far as if people take it as the literally Alien Prequel... Logically the aftermath does-not match Alien.  (The Beacon, the Wreckage of the Magellan)  what it hints to me is that another Engineer Ship suffered the same Fate but crashed in a different location on LV-426 Thousands of years prior).

Alien Engineers in context to the Question.. hints that LV-426 was maybe home to a Organism, Mollusca and with some Insect Traits in appearance that the Engineers had Re-Engineered and Experimented with to Create a Variety of different Organisms to be used as Bio-Weapons. The Xenomorph being ONE kind of these experiments.

Prometheus gave us some vague clues to potentially similar... But FOX decided the Prequels should not give us the Answers or Feature Xenomorphs but Focus more on the Engineers and the Background to them given in Alien Engineers. And to mainly cover in context to the Xenomorph... vague clues to a connection and WHY they would create such Bio-Warfare... 

Alien Covenant attempting to answer the WHY/HOW/WHEN in regards to the Xenomorph and Reintroduce the Organism back to the Franchise due to some Back-Lash with Prometheus and to make a New Trilogy that would NOW give us the Xenomorph Origins and lead up to ALIEN only the New CURVE-BALL  that David created it... has made the Origins and Enigma of the Xenomorph Less Alien.

The Movie was more about WHY David would create the Xenomorph rather than the Xenomorph and Engineers, it was Focuses too much on WHY David would Create such a Horrific Creature.

Too much Emphasis was on David... but his Arc and Character i can understand fits PERFECTLY with the Prometheus Philosophy but i think the Execution of his Character and it seemed everything else was a sub-Plot  was not very well done...  More Focus should have been on other Elements and a extra 40 Minutes run time was needed and also that David merely EVOLVED and Perfected what the Engineers had created in the past.

It can be saved by having the Engineers EVOLVE Davids Creation to get to the Xenomorph and thus David is merely the Middle Man.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

May-02-2018 8:56 AM

@Leto

The Bonus Material and Marketing are all things that can be TAKEN out of Canon with Future Movies and so the Knowledge of the Signal on LV-426 has to for the Time Being not be taken as Canon no more.  But this could be changed depending where the Prequels END  (if they ever do get made)

Right Now.... we have David setting off with the Covenant Ship to Origae-6 in Late 2104, the Covenant will take 7 years 4 Months to get to Origae-6 which means a Arrival Date of around April 2122 just over 10 years prior to ALIEN

The Engineers will Return and we can bet THIS is maybe were the Derelict comes from, or the Returning Engineers take David  and/or his Creations to LV-223.  Because before we get to ALIEN in context of AC here is what has to happen.

*Within the Space of 10 years prior to Alien David arrives at Origae-6 and we have to ponder what Next.

*Engineers will return and be one of 3-4 incoming Parties to arrive at Origae-6 we have to assume after David arrives around 10 years prior to ALIEN

*Davids Creation has to become EVOLVED more.

*Davids Creation has to END UP on a Engineer Ship.

*This SHIP has to be heading towards or leaving the Zeta-2 System (LV-223) just prior to the SPACE JOCKEY Event.

So thats 10 years for the above to Roll Out and we have to assume David may be on Origae-6 for a number of years prior to the Arrival of the Engineers, and also we have to assume the Derelict ends up on LV-426 for longer than Months, and so i think the most part of Alien Covenants TWO intended Sequels would Transpire between 2114-2120 Ball Park... but this is just my ASSUMPTION

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

dk

May-02-2018 1:17 PM

Ridley Scotts Prequels were meant to ask/ponder the Question of what is a SOUL and the one thing David also Can-Not Do is CREATE Life.


It would be interesting to see how things would play out if the franchise discovered that there is emperically no such thing as a soul - that could solidly place David on equal footing with humans.

 

 

BigDave

May-02-2018 2:37 PM

Indeed....

Why there is a potential for this expanded Universe, which i think RS was keen to explore such Philosophical Themes and Steer away from ALIEN but alas.......  FOX wanted a more Straight Up Prequels with Xenomorphs.

I had posted some theories on here prior to Alien Covenant regarding Weyland and David and i brought them up because my idea for Prometheus 2 which i canned Mid 2014, i was exploring what is  a SOUL.

And a Soul is basically... (these can be expanded to be more than 4 main ways to define what Soul means).

*The Spirit of a Human that lives on after Death.

*The Kind of Person (Embodiment)that is Molded from their Experiences and Memories.

*A Person who has a Kind, Caring and Giving Nature and are Not Selfish (that person has a Good Soul).

*A state of which someone puts a lot of effort into something (putting their Heart and Soul into a Movement, Action).

The First One is the Mysterious One... The Big One... and One we dont really have the Answers for, and the ONE that David could never have...  HOWEVER.... If Mankind just Die and become Dust and NOTHING then Mankind has No Soul like David.

The other 3 can apply to David, by his Actions his Deeds...

But the one i was tackling was the 2nd One...

If David has many years of Emotions, Memories and Experiences, when David is Destroyed... if his Memories, Experiences etc can be uploaded to ANOTHER Android Body then David would in effect HAVE the Soul that can Live on After-Death and David would be Immortal to a degree.

It was my theory and what i was exploring with my Prometheus 2, that Weyland's Objective with David was to Create the Perfect Physical Vessel...  a Being that was nearly Perfect compared to Humans.

Weyland was then also working on a Project Called (Project Rook) that was to Upload Weylands Soul... his Memories, Experiences and Emotions into a AI... so that then when Weyland Perfected this.. he could combine this with a Synthetic Host and BECOMES IMMORTAL

It would have been Revealed in my Prometheus 2 that this Project was Flawed and Weyland Could not create a AI that could Handle Complex Emotions and Memories and so the Weyland AI would become Unstable and go Insane....   Thus Weyland Abandoned this Project..

He then resorted to Dr Shaw and Holloways Findings as a LAST Ditched Effort to gain Eternal Life from our Makers...  The End of my Prometheus 2.... the Vickers Android would be able to Activate Project Rook before her Final Encounter with TWO Yutani Geisha Synthetic Assassins (She defeats them but she is wounded and revealed she is a Synthetic and thus can-not inherit the Company).

But the Rook Project is Activated and Weylands AI is uploaded to the System...  which leads to the reveal that Weylands AI is running the Show as far as the Companies Agenda in the Franchise and most of Humanity is not in the know....  Bit Matrix i know ;)

So there are interesting ways AI can be involved with the Franchise, but the Problem is MOST Fans will only ever see that the Xenomorph is the Franchise... while Ridley Scott was trying to explore something else..

My Prometheus 3 however would have brought the Engineers more into it... 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

dk

May-02-2018 3:01 PM

 If Mankind just Die and become Dust and NOTHING then Mankind has No Soul like David. Bingo! Thus David and Synths could be considered valid people or persons.

*The Spirit of a Human that lives on after Death.

*The Kind of Person (Embodiment)that is Molded from their Experiences and Memories We have no proof of this for humans but the notion of a soul for these points could be the "cloud"? It is at least real and verifiable.

*A state of which someone puts a lot of effort into something (putting their Heart and Soul into a Movement, Action). It seems this notion can easilly be put to bed: (2 1/2 minutes)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttmsiU-GZlg

 

 

 

 

 

daliens

May-02-2018 3:41 PM

I think the closest definition for the soul of all four is something that lives on after death. That is something AI could never aquire, the conscience as well. The spirit however can be molded by the experiences and memories, education and learning. There cannot be a good AI, only an AI with a good disguise.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

dk

May-02-2018 3:51 PM

daliens What is death? A basic definition is "a permanent cessation of all vital functions : the end of life." If something lives on after that, could it really be dead?

daliens

May-02-2018 3:57 PM

Of all the androids in the franchise, only Bishop seemed to have some "soul", I think this is why he is the most popular android among fans. But the more he resembled a human the more flawed as an android he was. The good Bishop android was revealed by David Fincher at the end of Alien3.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

daliens

May-02-2018 4:17 PM

dk I think death is when the soul leaves the body. A braindead has his vital organs still available for transplant and taking over the vital functions for some other poor soul, like spare parts. The body is just the vehicle for the soul. Why the clones are only physically identical even if passed through the same learning processes? Even the clones are better than AI.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

dk

May-02-2018 10:11 PM

daliens It seems there is no answer to what a soul is. We cannot see a picture of one or even have hard evidence. So it seems to come down to faith- which should not be confused with fact.

I lean towards no afterlife or soul for those reasons but subject matter like this makes for some of the most interesting sci fi discussions.

daliens

May-03-2018 1:26 AM

dk, yes, it all comes down to faith. Faith that everything happens for a reason and there are no coincidences. I liked a lot M. Night Syamalan's film Signs and I find myself on the miracle persons side. "People break down into two groups. When they experience something lucky, group number one sees it as more than luck, more than coincidence. They see it as a sign, evidence, that there is someone up there, watching out for them. Group number two sees it as just pure luck. Just a happy turn of chance. I'm sure the people in group number two are looking at those fourteen lights in a very suspicious way. For them, the situation is a fifty-fifty. Could be bad, could be good. But deep down, they feel that whatever happens, they're on their own. And that fills them with fear. Yeah, there are those people. But there's a whole lot of people in group number one. When they see those fourteen lights, they're looking at a miracle. And deep down, they feel that whatever's going to happen, there will be someone there to help them. And that fills them with hope. See what you have to ask yourself is what kind of person are you? Are you the kind that sees signs, that sees miracles? Or do you believe that people just get lucky? Or, look at the question this way: Is it possible that there are no coincidences?

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

daliens

May-03-2018 1:32 AM

It seems that Ridley Scott's words below are somehow prophetic.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

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