Is the Beast Really Cooked?

@Gavin

Rape was implied heavily and the claims are not mute and void, as after the Lambert and Brett scene, Ripley is filmed as she hears that weird panting from the Xenomorph as if he was in a sexual activity...

Will we never know exactly what happens there, however.

*Takes mic from dk, clears throat*… thanks dk ;)

Is the beast cooked?……eh, maybe.

On the one hand, the Morb itself offers tantalising possibilities, which I am open to. But, did we ever really need a backstory about this extraterrestrial, bio-mechanical, inter-species, oral rapist?

If it’s cosmic horror we crave, surely all we need to know is presented in this beings lifecycle? Just as you and I go to work, mow the lawn on weekends, or argue the specifics of each Alien movie. This beastie is doing something equivalent. Yes, it’s lifecycle seems horrific to us, but he’s not evil per se, he just goes about his day to day business of procreation. I kinda liked that simplistic, carnal presentation.

Of course, what changes that perception is when you add in additional factors. The Black Pathogen, as presented in PROMETHEUS, appeared to be a masterstroke, allowing for a Morb origin lesson and a melting pot of endless permutations, dependant upon who was doing the cooking! I really liked where this was going. The pale bald guys were not what I had in mind for the SJ, but I felt Ridley and co were cooking up a gourmet dinner.

Prometheus certainly needed a longer run time, we’ve said that a million times. Heck, there are deleted scenes which at the very least, would have helped the story flow better. But there were brilliant, fresh ideas and at points Ridley’s genius shone like the brightest star in the Universe. Had it not been marketed as an Alien movie, it would never have suffered such a backlash. Instead we’d be on this forum geeking out over hints and clues, and creating links to prove an ALIEN connection :)

Then along came Alien: Covenant. I’m still unsure as to how to define it? Filler? Nope, why would you waste money, time and effort on a movie which doesn’t act as a bridge to anything? It doesn’t really work as a Prometheus sequel, nor as an Alien prequel. It’s not that I think it’s a bad movie per se, I just cannot fathom its purpose. It treads water, is filled with Alien Franchise tropes, some worthy as nostalgic nods, whilst others are cringe inducing. Wrecked almost everything Prometheus set up. Had its budget cut and release moved up? Both of which ruined the final look of the creature effects, all on a Ridley Scott movie, the master world-builders watch no less! Just what the hell is going on?

Mehh, for anyone who’s still with me, I better stop now and try to sum things up…

To answer your question dk, perhaps it’s not just the Alien that is cooked, but the entire idea of an Alien Franchise? As far as I’m concerned if Ridley can’t get it right, then there’s little hope for anyone else.

Perhaps it’s a good thing that FOX are no longer the Puppet Masters? However, would Disney really want to pursue the idea of an EBE with the Morbs credentials. I seriously doubt it.

Mind you, an animated series could possibly tick their boxes! ;)

Lone

Sorry but AC was stated in an interview that had more or less the same budget as Prometheus. It was made however underbudget because they cut the 3D.

Thank you ignorantGuy, duly noted! 

@Lone

To be perfectly honest, I most likely I could not find the original source, so please take it with a grain of salt....

Hehe, no problem!

Lone and I Moon Girl Great posts! They condensed what many of us have discussed and expressed over the past year!  Perhaps it’s not just the Alien that is cooked, but the entire idea of an Alien Franchise?

That brings a bit of a paradox it seems. One one hand, the beast seems cooked to many, and the android story seems to be a way to keep it moving while maintaining that creepiness and horror since the Xeno hasn't really scared anyone since A3. I would like to see it tie into Alien in one more 3 hour movie personally. All things can not be answered but the longer this goes on, the more it can be viewed as having painted itself into a corner.

dk I would like to see at least one more movie too, otherwise the story is just left hanging in limbo. I agree, the Alien itself no longer has the ability to shock or frighten. It can still be a part of the story though.

There is so much potential. If Ridley could have followed through on his original plan, I feel it could have been very interesting. Problem is, you can't keep changing direction and wiping out what your last movie set up. I feel a Covenant sequel would do this too, to a certain extent.

What really excited me was the idea of one director making a series of movies which would follow on with a similar tone, fresh ideas and fit together seamlessly. Sadly, that hasn't happened.

That's been the biggest problem with the Alien Franchise, apart from the first two, none of the movies really sit well together. 

Where to now I wonder? Please Disney, take a chance!

Thanks cuponator3000. Just some strong leadership and a firm vision/direction is all we need  :)

BigDave my apologies if I came across defensive. I don't like endings Eg. I love Firefly/Serenity....watched them too many times to count. BUT, Never seen the last episode of Firefly "Objects in Space". This way for me the series has never ended lol :-p

Sadly the Beast is being relegated to nothing more than Bio-Weapon, used in mass.... and so its kind of much like how the Iconic T-800 had lost that Awe Inspiring Sparkle after the first TWO movies, as well it was not Unique but just a Mass Produced Killing Machine made to Hunt down Humans.

Great words!!! Couldn't agree more! There has been that lingering lacklustre disappointment with the Terminator series since Judgement Day. Boring old mass-produced killing machine T800s, and now T1000s (thanks to Genisys)

Lets not be Terminator. 

"BigDave my apologies if I came across defensive"

No problem, you never came across as that at all ;)

I have never seen those TV Series, i think i seen a few Firefly Episodes... oh i get you now....  you like things that leave the ending open?

I do think some Mystery would be nice, but i think there is a certain selection of the Fanbase who want all the answers.  I think Prometheus had that Balance, it offered enough, without Spoon Feeding the Answers....  A Sequel would have continues with some answers but not Spoon Fed anything..  But Sadly FOX felt most fans wanted Xenomorph Answers and to see the Beast again.

@I Moon Girl

Totally Agree with everything,  the beast is not so cooked, but showing it more would surely just relegate it to a T-800 or Space Jason etc.

@cuponator3000

Indeed i think there are ways to explore things connected to the beast, give a fresh take on it, the Neomorphs for example.  Because showing the Traditional Xenomorphs has been over done, and now we know its Origins, and how its now a Creation by David, the only interesting thing about the Xenomorph NOW.. is HOW/WHEN/WHY it ends up on LV-426 and to explore Why David has a interest in WHY create it but (AC answers a lot of this) and then to explore IF/WHY the Engineers have a interest in Davids Creation..... 

But we still could explore LV-223 why it was created, HOW/WHEN/WHY those Experiments and Black Goo, and we see there are many many ways we could see Related Organisms created from this Process.

They to to explore ways to Evolve/Experiment the Xenomorph or show alternative future or past versions of it,  that differ from the Alien Franchise 1979-1997 Versions.

THEY could have explored something more Alien as far as the Xenomorph Origins, something very Giger-esque... but this appears to not be the case NOW..... HOWEVER...  we could explore something more Giger, if they explore the Origins of the Pathogen or first Xenomorph Ancestral Organism it created.

@daliens

I agree with some of that, and indeed the Star Beast was more than a Bio-Weapon... We could have seen a complex Organism being found by the Engineers and Re-Engineered for the Black Goo and their Technology...  But the route we have been shown is they are just a Product of Davids Experiments and Hybridization with Organisms created from the Black Goo.

It appears from Prometheus the Xenomorph was intended as a Bio-Weapon....  Alien Covenant now appears to more so show us this is the case..   But its open for RS to explore Davids Relationship with it and have it that David is interested in its creation and to Nurture and Evolve it.

Rather than David created it just to KILL humans.

@Gavin

Indeed i got the picture the Xenomorph was just some Hybrid Advanced Parasitical Organism, i would like to think they are not as Basic as Space Ants, but they are far from as Advanced as say a Civilization.

Also i agree, exploring some Malevolent Agenda and Psychology to the Beast could make it more interesting, rather than it being something  that relies on Instincts to Survive.

@Lone

Certainly, i can see some of your reply is touching on what Gavin also said.  "Yes, it’s lifecycle seems horrific to us, but he’s not evil per se, he just goes about his day to day business of procreation"

So i think the whole Psychological Aspect behind what does the Xenomorph think/feel, does it have goals and ambitions...  This is what separates many Organism's on Earth from Humans.

Its a question of is the Parasitical Life Cycle or Implying some kind of Cultured Intersect behinds its actions going to be more HORRIFIC

A Predator as far as a Spider, a Wolf, a Lion or a Shark etc, only sees its Prey for Survival...   It never considers how its Actions could be harmful to its Prey...   Humans can make a choice when hunting...  do i need to kill that Deer, can i live off the Fruit and Veg...   We can have regret/remorse for killing and especially our own kind...   Nearly all other Organisms dont possess this.

Would having the Xenomorph have a similar Psychology to a Human make it more Terrifying?  Or again too Human?  It depends how its handled i suppose.

"The Black Pathogen, as presented in PROMETHEUS, appeared to be a masterstroke, allowing for a Morb origin lesson and a melting pot of endless permutations"

Indeed, and i totally agree with Prometheus as far as how you saw it,  RS had even said its NOT a Alien Movie, it was meant as something to TIE the Space Jockey Race to the Franchise, but a number of Fans will always want association with the Xenomorph and its Origins and expected Prometheus was going to do this.

I don’t think the beast is cooked at all. As a main dish it has always been well garnished with bloody victims, and that’s about it. Well, there are quite a few things that have just not been served up that should be on the menu. Firstly, I would really, really like to see someone get their head ripped off by a facehugger, and that’s just the starter.

I would also like to see some tactical use of facehuggers, such as a form of hostage taking. Surely the advantage with a facehugger is that it renders someone immobile, and if a ransom is not paid within a certain time, pop goes the xeno, along with a ribcage or two.

My biggest gripe is the constant reference to the xeno being a weapon, whilst never really being shown how effective use of xeno deployment works. A weapon by definition requires tactics; otherwise it is just a thing like a shoal of piranha.

If the xeno is indeed a weapon, then is it a weapon devised as a deterrent, and if so against what? Is there an anti-xeno proliferation programme?

And another thing, If you blow into the face of a xeno will it be yours to command, and possibly use as close protection.

Xeno’s are also supposed to be intelligent, which makes me wonder if they could have ever developed their own technology given the right conditions for them. I think there are a lot of avenues that have just not been explored.

Xenos as weapons are the nuclear option imo. They always seem to get out of control. 

Face huggers as hostage takers- that is a new idea and a pretty interesting one.

Thanks BigDave

But its open for RS to explore Davids Relationship with it and have it that David is interested in its creation and to Nurture and Evolve it.

It seemed to me that David was very interested in studying the xenomorph, tried to imprint on it even. He said in Advent that these creatures would rule the galaxies, so he did regard them as more than weapons, but rulers.

I wonder when did he send the messages to WY we see in Advent. He could have done it much later, after he arrived on Origae 6 and was prepared for a confrontation with WY. He used Walter's code for the reports in the meantime,  as we saw at the end of Covenant. 

We should see as well how the xenomorph from Covenant gets the shape of the Big Chap from Alien. That's among the few things still not cooked about the beast.

@Batchpool +1

I thought that i was the only one who thought this way.

I would really to see how xenomorph evolved after decades or even centuries of life. Would a decades old xenomorph drone become sentient ? Would it become way more than just a killing machine ? 

The queen in Aliens seems to be smart enough to understand the deal Ripley wanted to make with her, in order to escape. And it was a relatively young queen leading a small and young hive.

I would be curious to see how smart/sentient can decades/centuries old xenomorph be. Will they be able to build strategies advanced enough to beat an human army ? Will they become resilient to the marines weapons or find out efficient counter measures against them ?

I would really annoyed and disapointed to see another alien xenomorph showing the same cycle. Ridley wasted an opportunity with Alien Covenant imho. Instead of wanting to piss off fans, he could have shown a radically different type of Xenomorph and/or xenomorph cycle !

Imagine a very ancient sentient Xenomorph, trapped by the engineers, which escape from captivity thanks to David attack of the Planet 4  and which will make a deal with David in order to build a weapon based on its dna to destroy engineers.

DK: Maybe a bit off-topic but anyways. I enjoyed the Weyland TED-talk because it showed us what he was about. Unfortunately they did not include that in Prometheus. They could at least have had a shorter version of it because it sort of explains him.

Lone: Maybe it is about finding the right story? I am not sure if they shall show it too much though since there are other monsters that they could have also.

Characters is number one that gets into a situation of terror. I would like it to be a variation of a morph but maybe one that has just got some features of it (take the Squid as an example) since it would be repetitive to see the Xeno over and over again.

The black goo is interesting but I hope that we never get an explanation of where it came from. It is perhaps even more interesting than the monster it self, at least that is how I look at it. Some things should be left to the imagination.

I hope that we will get to know some more about the Engineers but the got to be done in a way that is interesting.

Alien Covenant could have been good but it just turned into a movie a bout a mad android that wants to create things and hate mankind.

Now they have added a certain amount of explanations to it but they could add some tings about it that we ever will know the answer too. In this case it could be kept un-cooked so to speak.

" Surely the advantage with a facehugger is that it renders someone immobile, and if a ransom is not paid within a certain time"

Thats certainly something very Original.....  so we could see some kind of Criminal Gang or Terrorist Group get its hands on the Organism.  using it as a Hostage for Ransom as you implied is a good idea.... it would be a Foolish Folly for the Criminals/Terrorist though, because you can almost see this back fire on them and then have to deal with the Threat they have unleashed.

I certainly think and its as i have said that you have to think of some new ways to deal with the Xenomorph and i feel even then we have to careful how much we do this.

The beast is cooked for me as far as the following.

*It no longer has that Scare Factor it had before, and especially after Alien Resurrection and the AVP movies it became Diluted, i feel Alien Covenant could have resurrected the Fear of the Original but it did not do the beast any justice. 

*It no longer has that Mystery/Enigma about it, this is a consequence of exploring its Origins, and Sadly when we look at the Engineers, the Black Goo and then David using this to create the Xenomorph, they all dont have that same Awe Inspiring Effect like when we first saw the Derelict and had many Questions in our minds to what this was all about.

We have seen a EVOLUTION of the idea behind the Xenomorph.

*Star Beast we are shown it simply is the remains of its Once Civilized to a degree Species, a highly evolved Species but a Deadly One, and with no Adults to Nurture it, then we are left with a Wild Beast.

*Alien left us the Enigma of the Derelict having these Eggs in some kind of Cargo Hold, and the Dead Space Jockey and it left us wondering what the connection was...  Creators? or merely someone who discovered the Xenomorphs?

After Alien (and more so after Aliens) Ridley Scott had confirmed to us that the Derelict was some kind of War-ship the Cargo a Biological Weapon.

*Aliens introduced the kind of Insect/Hive aspect which could make us think this was a Organism the Space Jockey used purely because of its destructive nature, or was they Engineered like this by them.

*Prometheus introduced us to the Black Goo/Sacrificial Goo which on one hand was shown to be used to Create/Evolve Life, and on the other was shown it can be used to Mutate/Evolve Life but by doing so it in effect KILLS the Original Life. The movie also implies this substance is used as a Cleansing Tool a Bio-Weapon to a degree and it is connected to the Xenomorph DNA in some way.

*Alien Covenant seems to imply that this substance not only destroys but creates hybrid forms of the Xeno-Virus and by experimentation and cross-hybridization David ultimately creates the early form of Xenomorph.

We cant be 100% sure where Ridley Scott was going next, but it appears he would be sticking with David creating the Xenomorphs, and that the Beast would go through some upgrades before it becomes what it was in ALIEN and i think RS was going to portray it as some AI Creation that is Engineered by David.

So it looks like the Xenomorph to David is no more of a cross between what David was to Weyland and some Hybrid Organism created from the results of the Black Goo Pathogenic Mutagen.

The original Alien was really frightening because we knew virtually nothing about it. Remember the look on Brett's face when he encountered it?

As audience members we had that exact same experience. No idea what in the hell it was, no time to process exactly what we were looking at, yet instantly realising that it was super deadly!

No other portrayal of the Alien has been able to recreate that.

That's why Ridley wanted to move things in another direction. The Engineers, The Black Pathogen, The Baby Deacon, (shoot me, I liked it!) The Hammerpede, even the incredibly large, cuddly, vagina monster- Cuddles, what an awesome trip that was! All successful, Proto-Morb family members it seemed to me. Plus, Prometheus opened the door to other permutations of deadly Morb offspring.

There were so many possibilities, so many routes for this story to follow. Prometheus was the right way to go. It's never too late.... 

Ps I still long to see some creepy, horrifying, egg-morphing!!

A slow egg morph would be interesting to see- start to finish- while seeing the victims lose their humanity. The black goo in Prometheus sort of did that in its own way. However, this would seem to be an admission by RS that the scene in Alien should not have been cut.

Big Dave: I agree that the Xeno is not as threatening as before but I believe that the black goo sort of could take that place if they do not explain it too much. Hopefully they will not make the same mistake with the black goo that they did with the Xeno. Unfortunately Scott was a reason why it was made worse since they made it so it was a creation by David.

Maybe the Engineers and the black goo could take that place that the Xeno had. They both need to be made a mystery at least parts of them. It would be bad if they explain all about the goo and the Engineers.

I believe that Scott has made it worse by making it a creation of David but it could be saved so it will be a re-creation. Hopefully it could be a re-creation of other beasts that the Engineers have done before, that would be nice.