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Alien: Covenant

Alien: Covenant - Prometheus sequel

Alien: Covenant

The Alien: Covenant, Alien: Awakening & Prometheus Movie Community

dk

Member

384

Posted Mar-02-2018 10:37 PM

I understand how the Xeno works- we all do. It can still be interesting in at least a sub plot in its development though. We still have not seen the missing link of the marriage the bio and mechanical.

dk points the mic out to the forum!

44 Responses to Is the Beast Really Cooked?

IRaptus

Mar-03-2018 12:52 AM

Its a tricky one. I think someone needs to take ownership of the franchise, develop some type of 10year plan encompassing all media types, and schedule out a plan for moving the franchise incrementally forward. Sadly there are lots of strings being pulled on the franchise, the end result keeping it chained down.

The problem has been various movies, novels, games, comics etc keep rehashing the same ideas/locations/people and we keep going around in small circles. Name a video game of the franchise that doesn't return to the Derelict on LV426?! Its cool and all, but we're stuck in a loop.

Alien media comes with certain expectations (eggs, faceuhugger, chestburster, hive, isolation/claustrophobia etc). We don't want to change it because it is the core of the experience, but we dont want the same thing either. Its a very fine line keeping all the fans appeased.

Ridley had an idea to move forward. Its a moot point now whether it was the right direction, but at least it was forward-thinking change. Unfortunately his vision and resulted in a bastardisation of whatever his original intentions were, forced into line by second-guessing and lack of firm leadership and direction.

 

Alien: Isolation (although still stuck in the loop) attempted to move the story forward

 

dk

Mar-03-2018 12:58 AM

Isolation indeed. The elephant in the room in many ways.

Here are again coming around to the possibility of a mini series format since theatrical would take way too much time.

Thoughts_Dreams

Mar-03-2018 1:03 PM

No but there is a risk that it gets turned into stone if they are not careful. The reason why is because it has been shown a lot in comics and so on. It did not help that we got the AVP movies, LOL. David is cooked if you ask me, it has just been handled in an underwhelming way.

Xenos work best when they are kept in the shadows. You know that they are around but you do not know where they are, compare this to Aliens when the marines look at their motion trackers but they do not see where they are and all off a sudden they are all surrounded by them, that worked well I think.

BigDave

Mar-03-2018 4:01 PM

I will make a more invested comment tomorrow...

For now i will add that the BEAST IS COOKED but we can go a few rounds more, by adding some Sauce and Condiments (change a few things) because going the Out in the Open attacking people route like we saw in AR, the AVP movies and AC to a degree and so like Aliens, a few more times will not COOK but CREMATE the Beast.

The Beast needs to be used very well, and not pushed down our throats (pun intended) too much...

But the other side of the coin are Fans who would love nothing more than Xeno after Xeno after Xeno....  even if it reduces the Xenomorph to basically Star Ship Troopers Bugs... their is a Popcorn Market for Fans who love this kind of stuff.

Even introducing a Alien 3/Alien kind of take on a Lone Xenomorph cant be done over and over, because well the Xenomorph would be no more than a Space Jason Voorhees

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

IRaptus

Mar-03-2018 5:31 PM

BigDave i agree with what you say, but you paint a sad picture. I don't want to see the beast cooked, but I don't want there to be an end to the franchise either :(

So moving forward we cant have hives of Xenos (Starship Troopers - space bugs) and we cant have single stalker xeno (Space Jason Voorhees). These scenario's have been done to death in films/books/games anyhow. A growing voice of fans are weary of the AI angle.

Perhaps a tv series is a way forward? To me the universe, mythos and lore of the Alien Universe needs to open up and expand significantly, and the threat of the Xeno's escalated but with it turning into Starship Troopers.

I cant see a way this can be done via feature films. 2 hour snapshots of a massive universe is just not sufficient to cover enough ground. 

A series like The Expanse, The 100, Firefly, Battlestar Galactica etc could allow this expansion. There are still many ancient evils to explore in the Alienverse, some of which have been touched on in the books and comics. A lot however involve an expanded hierarchy of Queens and Xeno royalty, a concept that already pisses off a large faction of the fanbase. If not this, perhaps explore the Engineers. Or cover Earth Hive as a show. Or the Neomorphs. 

On a side note if you have ever read any of the books my big gripe is how underwhelming ALL of them have been regarding Queens/Queens Mother/Empress + the Palatine/Praetorian Xeno Royalty.

These things should be almost untouchable and the ultimate ancient evil. There is great suspense and build-up to these things but inevitably in the books anyone can just waltz on in and shoot 'em up. If this path was taken for a tv series you could build up each one per season. 

I can sit in awe and wonder at these John Bolton images for hours, imagining the horrors they could bring. There is still life in the beast yet. Im not endorsing the Queen hierarchy angle but it would escalate the Xeno threat, add lore and depth to the franchise...if also sell it out a bit. 

 

 

 

dk

Mar-03-2018 6:17 PM

I agree IRaptus that there is too much mythos to cover in feature films and that mini series would be the way to go.

For a feature film, I want to see how the OG Xeno comes to be and how it connects to Alien. 

One way would be to have that missing link but not seen in its glory until the climax of the movie. Prior to that, we would only hear it and maybe see foggy glimpses of parts of it- allowing individuals to build a mental picture of what it might be. Also some strange deaths can build more anticipation. And they need to stop with all the trailers- AC would have been better without all the teasers and trailers.

ignorantGuy

Mar-03-2018 11:10 PM

We must take into account the medium however. For movies I think it is pretty much cooked, as with the monster comes expectations like dark corridors, getting infected, etc... All seem many times, even if they made them good they would be derivative by now.

And we also must take into account the budget... 

dk

Mar-03-2018 11:36 PM

ignorantGuy I am not sure about budget. There are many movies, indie projects and such that are very well done. A case in point was when IRaptus cited a comparison of budgets/practical effects and over all impact between AC and Pan's Labyrinth.

IRaptus

Mar-03-2018 11:49 PM

Sadly you know who is a master of those types of films you speak of dk. The big climatic reveal

David Fincher....

 

IRaptus

Mar-03-2018 11:54 PM

I think it was I moon girl (?) who also brought up SAW. That was amazingly intense, suspenseful and articulate film on a shoe-string budget. It was a $1M project greenlight film. Big Budget is not the be all and end all. 
Hell, some of the fan made shorts (with no budget) you shared dk are proof of that!!

 

 

ignorantGuy

Mar-03-2018 11:56 PM

dk

I was not clear, but when talking about budget I was referring to the fact that Alien brand is not likely to bring make more than 300 mil in cinemas, so the budgets will likely never be bigger than 70 mil. So big RS style extravaganzas (war of the worlds style) maybe out of question in the future.

AC seemed very wasteful, Actors appearing for 10 seconds... Concept art binned in favor of things from Alien Engineers. 

dk

Mar-04-2018 12:05 AM

I agree there seemed to be a lot of wasted money in AC. I would even say the same for Prometheus. Guy Pierce likely made some good bank but his character was woefully under utilized. His TED Talk and Conversations with David  eclipsed the old man role imo.  I don't know the answer but maybe budget allocation is more important- like writing.

dk

Mar-04-2018 12:11 AM

IRaptus Indeed, there are forum members who do stuff on their own dime and time that can deliver some good entertainment. You Tube has no shortage of independent shorts/ mini movies that are pretty heavy hitters. One just needs to look around a bit. It might only be 10-15 minutes, but it is all killer with no filler!

Who knows- maybe the Alien franchise could use a new crew of indie folks used to working on tight budgets to deliver the goods. Oh wait- that's exactly what a mini series could do. 

BigDave

Mar-05-2018 2:47 AM

Some very good points raised...

I would add my comments about the Beast being Cooked apply to the route it was taken and has been, as far as how a continuation like this will Forever change the way we view our Xenomorph, in regards to how Awe Inspiring it was in Alien, even Aliens to a degree.

Sadly the Beast is being relegated to nothing more than Bio-Weapon, used in mass.... and so its kind of much like how the Iconic T-800 had lost that Awe Inspiring Sparkle after the first TWO movies, as well it was not Unique but just a Mass Produced Killing Machine made to Hunt down Humans.

If we  continue the David Creator Route then expand this to War of the Worlds in context to any expansion showing David sending out Hordes of Xenomorphs against Humans and Engineers.

Then the Xenomorph would be to David as the T-800 is to the Cyberdyne Systems  Main Computer.

I think the Original Xenomorphs could be used, but if not done so correctly and used too much, then they just get relegated to being technically Davids Army of T-800's  

Does not mean they cant be Deadly, its just they would forever loose that same appeal that ALIEN gave us,  used sparingly like in Alien and Alien Isolation i think the Beast could go 1-2 more rounds.

even Alien Isolation is limited, if they make say 2 more sequels where its once again same type Game-Play...  vs 1-2 Xenomorphs all game....    Its at this point something NEW has to be added.

The same would apply to the movie Franchise.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Mar-05-2018 2:53 AM

Regarding Budget...

I agree that Disney are not going to be in the game of risking a $150-200M unless they really think they could make $400M Bare Minimum.   You can bet FOX was not expecting the returns that AC got.... i think FOX expected something closer or even more than Prometheus had taken.

Doing things on a Budget, is hard if they pay well known cast members, and if the movie is set in SPACE or on a SHIP/STATION and then introducing a number of Xenomorphs... depending how the budget on them is spent.

I think a AVP Special Effects Budget per Xenomorph per Minute is not going to be super Expensive if the next movie introduces only 1-2 of them.

If Origae-6 is similar to Planet 4 Minus any signs of previous Civilization then i think indeed  i think a budget of $75 - 100M as of now could work, especially if we get a kind of AFTER-MATH movie with not a large cast.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

I Moon Girl

Mar-05-2018 6:27 PM

Without reading ANY posts from above and from me missing out of some great points of the fellow members on this forum... I would have to say...

YES, the beast is cooked.

Alien was so great because the audience knew SO little about the Xeno.

Aliens was so great because it took the threat of the Xeno and times that by 1 million.  It wasn't near as scary as the first one, but the Xeno isn't all about scarying people.  Aliens was a great sequel.

I feel like the beast got cooked at Aliens.

Alien3 was a good movie and it had an interesting twist on the Xeno since it was more dog-like.  I also think that was the first movie we even get the idea that the Xeno can take on characteristics of the host.  In Alien3, the host was a dog.  So, it was a good movie and I really did enjoy it, but the Xeno was fairly predictable.  It was just done in a completely original environment for Ripley to overcome.

A:R was good and had some scary parts and I did enjoy that movie as well.  A clone Ripley was a great idea.  It did get weird in the end, which is a plus and a minus for me.  I'm glad it was made.  Still, it was more of Ripley's story and not about the Xeno.  That is why I think it was a success.

Prometheus was a genius idea.  I've said that numerous times on this website.  The basic idea of Prometheus was JUST as good as Alien in my critique.  I loved how a person couldn't really tell it was a part of the Alien franchise.  For me, Prometheus is just fascinating and has rewatchability for different reasons than Alien.  Genius idea, yet original. Loved it!

Alien: Covenant wasn't so much about the Xeno, but more about the history of the Xeno.  Hopefully we'll get more answers in Alien: Awakening to finish it.

So, getting more on topic here...

Xeno was cooked after Aliens.

Ridley Scott was right with Prometheus and the direction of the prequels.

Even after Alien: Covenant's somewhat failure to live up to Prometheus's standards, exploring the history of the Xeno and the associated Engineers are the right way to go.

I'm glad Aliens was made, but I think the prequels that Ridley Scott wanted to make after the original Alien could've been made much sooner than they actually have been.  The reason is because the Xeno was almost cooked after Alien.  There was definitely room for a sequel to Alien.  The question was just how was it going to be done.  We got Aliens and I'm fairly happy with it.

So, the Xeno is cooked because we supposedly know everything about it.  We now even almost have a complete history of where the Xeno comes from.  That's unless Alien: Awakening throws a curve ball towards.  Knowing Ridley Scott, that could be the case.

Still, I think it's obvious that the Xeno is cooked from Alien: Covenant.  In A:C, we get the Neomorph.  It's cool, yet I also understand it as a way to provide something fresh.  Don't get me wrong, but the Neomorph is a good idea.  Still, I think the reason we have the Neomorph is because Ridley Scott thinks the Xeno is cooked.

I agree.  The Xeno is cooked.

Of course, I'm sure someone could write something.  They came up with Prometheus.  That movie is fantastic.  It just needed some more run time.  Blade Runner 2049 get's almost 3 hours and Prometheus get's 2 hours?  Both are great movies and both deserve 3 hours.  The Alien franchise has more movies out over a greater period of time.  It would only make sense to produce a movie that decides it's run time (as long as it's reasonable).

We might get a long run time for Alien: Awakening.  It would only make sense since it would be the last of the prequels.  

cuponator3000

Mar-05-2018 7:24 PM

I agree with iRaptus on the stuck in a loop idea. So yes, the Beast is currently cooked. I think it be rebirthed though. Or at least, can stand a few more rounds. In fact, iRaptus is right again in which all of the licenses for Alien from all forms of media need to be rounded up and then a group of producers and writers need to plan out a franchise. At least give some sort of skeleton structure to it. The beast needs to be paced. All of the froms of media pushing out Xenomorphs are compunding the issues. 

With a little care and some fresh film ideas and structure, the beast can go for a few more rounds. I think the frnchise would (unfortunatley) benefit from a decade or two of stasis after Sir Ridley hopefully finishes his prequels. 

Not a map, an invitation

daliens

Mar-06-2018 1:19 AM

IMO the use of xenomorphs as cannon fodder has to be avoided. I believe Ridley Scott's intentions to present it as AI and biological weapon, with the capacity of bonding with its creator could give a fresh and interesting complexity to this unique, beautiful monster. Its life cycle is however widely known by all, so only exploiting its adult life form when not busy with killing, its adaptability, motivators, communication skills, everything that makes it the perfect organism, can save this dear.

And Ridley Scott is aware of that, he can do it. He still believes in the alien. I hope he can persuade the accountants from Disney and start filming asap.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

daliens

Mar-06-2018 1:39 AM

One of the greatest ironies to have Disney in charge with the future of the Alien franchise,  after they even removed the xenomorph from Disneyland in Orlando. Nevertheless. ..

Disney,  if you want my money, just let Ridley Scott finish his prequels,  I'll see it in theaters,  buy the bluray and merchandise. Not interested in other options.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

Gavin

Mar-06-2018 4:10 AM

IMO, and my short answer... No.

Whenever people talk about the first Alien movie they place the Alien on a pedestal of which I feel it does not deserve. We have all heard the claims of the creature being a sexual predator, a mutilator, a murderous thief. I have seen Alien too many times and all I see is a parasitic yet naturally-viable creature animal acting in a predictably animalistic fashion - it uses the vent shafts to sneak around the ship snatching Brett and Dallas to reproduce and eliminates all other threats to protect its potential offspring. Nothing else is inferred (claims it raped Lambert are void and mute as those are Brett's legs, not Lambert's)

What I want to see from the Alien is the Alien everyone thinks they saw, a cruel and malicious creature, with disturbing and murderous intent. This doesn't have to be gratuitous as I, as I believe we all, feel that less is more and the horror of the unseen is more frightening than what we do see. But if we had a new movie in which the Alien is inferred to be callous and manipulative I feel it would breathe a whisper of life back into the franchise, at least in terms of the portrayal of the creature.

ignorantGuy

Mar-06-2018 5:59 AM

@Gavin

Rape was implied heavily and the claims are not mute and void, as after the Lambert and Brett scene, Ripley is filmed as she hears that weird panting from the Xenomorph as if he was in a sexual activity...

Will we never know exactly what happens there, however.

Lone

Mar-06-2018 8:34 AM

*Takes mic from dk, clears throat*… thanks dk ;)

Is the beast cooked?……eh, maybe.

On the one hand, the Morb itself offers tantalising possibilities, which I am open to. But, did we ever really need a backstory about this extraterrestrial, bio-mechanical, inter-species, oral rapist?

If it’s cosmic horror we crave, surely all we need to know is presented in this beings lifecycle? Just as you and I go to work, mow the lawn on weekends, or argue the specifics of each Alien movie. This beastie is doing something equivalent. Yes, it’s lifecycle seems horrific to us, but he’s not evil per se, he just goes about his day to day business of procreation. I kinda liked that simplistic, carnal presentation.

Of course, what changes that perception is when you add in additional factors. The Black Pathogen, as presented in PROMETHEUS, appeared to be a masterstroke, allowing for a Morb origin lesson and a melting pot of endless permutations, dependant upon who was doing the cooking! I really liked where this was going. The pale bald guys were not what I had in mind for the SJ, but I felt Ridley and co were cooking up a gourmet dinner.

Prometheus certainly needed a longer run time, we’ve said that a million times. Heck, there are deleted scenes which at the very least, would have helped the story flow better. But there were brilliant, fresh ideas and at points Ridley’s genius shone like the brightest star in the Universe. Had it not been marketed as an Alien movie, it would never have suffered such a backlash. Instead we’d be on this forum geeking out over hints and clues, and creating links to prove an ALIEN connection :)

Then along came Alien: Covenant. I’m still unsure as to how to define it? Filler? Nope, why would you waste money, time and effort on a movie which doesn’t act as a bridge to anything? It doesn’t really work as a Prometheus sequel, nor as an Alien prequel. It’s not that I think it’s a bad movie per se, I just cannot fathom its purpose. It treads water, is filled with Alien Franchise tropes, some worthy as nostalgic nods, whilst others are cringe inducing. Wrecked almost everything Prometheus set up. Had its budget cut and release moved up? Both of which ruined the final look of the creature effects, all on a Ridley Scott movie, the master world-builders watch no less! Just what the hell is going on?

Mehh, for anyone who’s still with me, I better stop now and try to sum things up…

To answer your question dk, perhaps it’s not just the Alien that is cooked, but the entire idea of an Alien Franchise? As far as I’m concerned if Ridley can’t get it right, then there’s little hope for anyone else.

Perhaps it’s a good thing that FOX are no longer the Puppet Masters? However, would Disney really want to pursue the idea of an EBE with the Morbs credentials. I seriously doubt it.

Mind you, an animated series could possibly tick their boxes! ;)

 

THE LONE GUNWOMAN

"Let The Cosmic Incubation Begin" ~ H.R. Giger

ignorantGuy

Mar-06-2018 8:40 AM

Lone

Sorry but AC was stated in an interview that had more or less the same budget as Prometheus. It was made however underbudget because they cut the 3D.

Lone

Mar-06-2018 8:42 AM

Thank you ignorantGuy, duly noted! 

THE LONE GUNWOMAN

"Let The Cosmic Incubation Begin" ~ H.R. Giger

ignorantGuy

Mar-06-2018 8:44 AM

@Lone

To be perfectly honest, I most likely I could not find the original source, so please take it with a grain of salt....

Lone

Mar-06-2018 8:46 AM

Hehe, no problem!

 

THE LONE GUNWOMAN

"Let The Cosmic Incubation Begin" ~ H.R. Giger

dk

Mar-06-2018 10:14 PM

Lone and I Moon Girl Great posts! They condensed what many of us have discussed and expressed over the past year!  Perhaps it’s not just the Alien that is cooked, but the entire idea of an Alien Franchise?

That brings a bit of a paradox it seems. One one hand, the beast seems cooked to many, and the android story seems to be a way to keep it moving while maintaining that creepiness and horror since the Xeno hasn't really scared anyone since A3. I would like to see it tie into Alien in one more 3 hour movie personally. All things can not be answered but the longer this goes on, the more it can be viewed as having painted itself into a corner.

 

 

Lone

Mar-06-2018 11:55 PM

dk I would like to see at least one more movie too, otherwise the story is just left hanging in limbo. I agree, the Alien itself no longer has the ability to shock or frighten. It can still be a part of the story though.

There is so much potential. If Ridley could have followed through on his original plan, I feel it could have been very interesting. Problem is, you can't keep changing direction and wiping out what your last movie set up. I feel a Covenant sequel would do this too, to a certain extent.

What really excited me was the idea of one director making a series of movies which would follow on with a similar tone, fresh ideas and fit together seamlessly. Sadly, that hasn't happened.

That's been the biggest problem with the Alien Franchise, apart from the first two, none of the movies really sit well together. 

Where to now I wonder? Please Disney, take a chance!

THE LONE GUNWOMAN

"Let The Cosmic Incubation Begin" ~ H.R. Giger

IRaptus

Mar-07-2018 1:12 AM

Thanks cuponator3000. Just some strong leadership and a firm vision/direction is all we need  :)

BigDave my apologies if I came across defensive. I don't like endings Eg. I love Firefly/Serenity....watched them too many times to count. BUT, Never seen the last episode of Firefly "Objects in Space". This way for me the series has never ended lol :-p

Sadly the Beast is being relegated to nothing more than Bio-Weapon, used in mass.... and so its kind of much like how the Iconic T-800 had lost that Awe Inspiring Sparkle after the first TWO movies, as well it was not Unique but just a Mass Produced Killing Machine made to Hunt down Humans.

Great words!!! Couldn't agree more! There has been that lingering lacklustre disappointment with the Terminator series since Judgement Day. Boring old mass-produced killing machine T800s, and now T1000s (thanks to Genisys)

Lets not be Terminator. 

 

 

BigDave

Mar-08-2018 2:23 PM

"BigDave my apologies if I came across defensive"

No problem, you never came across as that at all ;)

I have never seen those TV Series, i think i seen a few Firefly Episodes... oh i get you now....  you like things that leave the ending open?

I do think some Mystery would be nice, but i think there is a certain selection of the Fanbase who want all the answers.  I think Prometheus had that Balance, it offered enough, without Spoon Feeding the Answers....  A Sequel would have continues with some answers but not Spoon Fed anything..  But Sadly FOX felt most fans wanted Xenomorph Answers and to see the Beast again.

@I Moon Girl

Totally Agree with everything,  the beast is not so cooked, but showing it more would surely just relegate it to a T-800 or Space Jason etc.

@cuponator3000

Indeed i think there are ways to explore things connected to the beast, give a fresh take on it, the Neomorphs for example.  Because showing the Traditional Xenomorphs has been over done, and now we know its Origins, and how its now a Creation by David, the only interesting thing about the Xenomorph NOW.. is HOW/WHEN/WHY it ends up on LV-426 and to explore Why David has a interest in WHY create it but (AC answers a lot of this) and then to explore IF/WHY the Engineers have a interest in Davids Creation..... 

But we still could explore LV-223 why it was created, HOW/WHEN/WHY those Experiments and Black Goo, and we see there are many many ways we could see Related Organisms created from this Process.

They to to explore ways to Evolve/Experiment the Xenomorph or show alternative future or past versions of it,  that differ from the Alien Franchise 1979-1997 Versions.

THEY could have explored something more Alien as far as the Xenomorph Origins, something very Giger-esque... but this appears to not be the case NOW..... HOWEVER...  we could explore something more Giger, if they explore the Origins of the Pathogen or first Xenomorph Ancestral Organism it created.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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