Posted Feb-22-2018 12:27 PM
As we discuss gore/horror, it seems terror has been absent from the Alien franchise since Alien 3 as far as I can see. Terror- that sense of dread and anticipation of what will happen- or maybe it won't......
David brought that sense I suppose and perhaps that is a reason RS focuses on developing that character?
How would you bring that element to the next Alien movie?
|21 Responses to Terror in the Alien Universe|
I fixed it dk for ya.
"Human heaven? Goodness, humans don't go to heaven.
Someone just made that up to prevent you from all going nuts."
- Kryten, Red Dwarf S3E06 "The Last Day"
Dark Nebula Thanks- never happened before and have no idea what happened.
Certainly..... and a good Story, Characters and how they are then shown on screen all add to the Terror, Terror often can be use feeling the Horrific/Tense situations that Characters are placed in.
For this to work, Good use of Characters is mainly key... no wonder that since Alien 3 we have not seen depth of Characters or use of Characters apart from the odd one.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"How would you bring that element to the next Alien movie?"
This is the tricky one... we have to be given a Scenario and Story where we get Characters we can relate too, and then see them thrown into Jeopardy.
This is the route my Alien:Ascension is taking (need to get more work done on it, as i have had the idea for months now lol) and so i was going to follow the route of showing us Origae-6 set up as a Colony, The Colonist starting to settle in more and expand, we arrive at a GREAT day for Celebration the 1st Birthday of the First Born Child on Origae-6 (Colony had been set up for years) but this was the First Naturally Produced and Born Child...
David would have Charade as Walter, in a Walters Body (he builds) a Monument to David, holding this Child is Erected, Walter (David) being praised as a Savior of the Colony Mission, had been held in high regard and celebration, they turn to Walter for Advice as like a wise Elder, but they do have Humans who run the show...
David has completely covered the tracks of what happened in Alien Covenant, the Colonist fed a lie about Saboteurs where he reveals some of the Crew to have attempted to destroy the Covenant and Caused the Chaos that was Neutrino Burst.
We see what seems like a Happy Colony, Walter had Sculpted a Statue in Honor of Daniels as she risked her life with Walter to Save the Covenant but she Perished. I reveal a lot of the Colonist do kind of adapt a Cultist/Religious look at things. Influenced and in memory of the Sacrifice of Oram and Daniels.
David/Walter had told of the tale of the struggle with Saboteurs (Lope and Tennessee) we have Statue of Oram, with his Gut open holding aloft a Demon... that Walter says represents a message from Oram about the need to overcome our Demons, to start a new, to forget the Rotting Society that is Earth).
Its only latter on when Davids True Dark Secrets are revealed and the Statues then reveal their true significance. And we gradually see the Hidden Horrors that David had been keeping...
And the True Shock of Davids Agenda....
I think building this kind of setting helps us connect with the plight of these Colonist..... And so when we get Mutations, and Pregnant Women Belly Busters (Though Shall Not from that Fruit) hopefully the Colony/Family vibe thats being set down will hit home when such a Horrific Event Occurs.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
For starters, the sheer number of characters could be reduced. I lost count of characters in the last two movies but remember Alien had just 9 including the Alien and Jonesy. They were all used to good effect.
Indeed another way to make a movie have that impact is for a few Characters, this kind of worked for Alien, but then Alien Covenant did not have many Characters either, some were used in the Throw Away Plot Devices... But we had that in Aliens when we had the Exploding Ammunition Bag during the Xenomorph reveal Scene, that killed off Characters so it left us with a small group to relate to..
With Alien Covenant, we just could not relate to those who made it to the Cathedral....
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
The first born child scenario sounds like it could really build terror with an unsuspecting populace who realizes what's up too late. Their god is revealed as their devil. Nice on different levels!
AC had no suspense. in alien, u had the sense the beast could be anywhere as it was using the air shifts to move around, same with aliens, those buggers could be anywhere. without suspense theres no terror. no fear of whats round the corner. the neomorph climbs the outer wall then is just there behind someone.no sense of it hunting silently. its not like its not possible to scare people these days. RS said he wanted to scare the fuck out of us. well im still waiting. I posted a thread on a short film on youtube called alien infestation. brought me back to the original and that fear and dread and that was some amateur in a basement. as the original proved, u don't need gore. u don't need to see anything of what happens to the victim. but u need the director to paint a picture an burn it into ur mind and Ridley failed horribly in AC imo
There got to be some tension for it to work and also good written characters. Right now the character part does not work so the movies suffer because of that. I agree with Big Dave that we have not had that since Alien 3.
The problem I think with the prequels is that there is no continuation for the innocent. Alien left us with Ripley's journey continuing in Aliens, which, I think naturally created ideas for the writers of the script. In Aliens, we don't have an innocent Ripley anymore because of what she experienced in Aliens. Instead, we get someone who is showing their perseverance, emotional strength, and, especially, their paranoia. I mean, in Aliens I'm left thinking that Ripley is being a bit paranoid with Burke (even though he is scum). Plus, with Ripley's limited experience with the Xeno, we still get a somewhat 'guru' like leader of the pack. This leads the script to be more fast pace then the original. So, we naturally get more action. I feel Aliens was a good sequel to Alien. It was different and original.
Then, in Alien 3, we get another Ripley movie in the 'pit of hell' for a woman so to speak. On top of that, we get a loose Xeno on the loose. Ripley kills herself to save the world from the Xeno. She may have also killed herself to just end the tragedy that plagues her life. We're left with the end of an epic journey with Ripley.
In A:R, Ripley comes back as a clone. So, now we get our familiar Ripley, yet with a very interesting twist. Splendid idea in my opinion!
Now, to the prequels. We get the lovely, and completely innocent and gullible Shaw character developed appropriately in Prometheus, only to basically disappear from the franchise. They obvious can't cut Shaw out completely because she was a very important character in Prometheus, but they came close.
In A:C, we get Oram's innocence and almost completely gullible mindset like Shaw's, yet he's a bit wizened from his past experiences. Well, he get's killed off. Now, we're left with Daniels, who is serious and follows the rules. She may have been innocent in the beginning of the movie, yet her personality just isn't as pliable for future movies. Her personality is to fit for tragic events. Ripley really shows in deep empathy throughout the franchise.
The big 180 we got from Prometheus to A:C really killed of a great character like Shaw. I think we should've gotten a more religious point of view from Shaw AND NOT ORAM as we have gotten. It's not that I don't like Oram's point of view, but the character of Oram could've been better if we got to see it from Shaw's perspective instead of Oram's. The reason is because we already went through one movie with Shaw, so a second one with her can make things more fast past and interesting since the personality of the character and their nuances are out of the way.
With Oram, the character is developed quickly to fill in the religious gap we were lacking in A:C so that he could be killed off. Shaw's character would have been good if she died in the sequel of Prometheus. I'm fine with ending a religious character in movie 2 of 3.
I love how A:C was completely different than Prometheus, but I don't like how Shaw was just pushed out of the way. I do hope that Alien: Awakening with be a completely new story like we got with A:C, yet I hope Daniels and Tennessee don't get shoved out of the way like what happened to Shaw.
So, to bring terror to the next Alien movie AND to be something different than a Xeno stalking people is the question. I think Prometheus answered that question and A:C didn't even come close. I think we need another Prometheus. By that, I mean everybody needs to be innocent and ignorant to what real fear is and needs to be discovering something brand new.
This is how Alien was and this is how Prometheus was. Yet, Alien: Awakening needs to be different than both. Ridley succeeded with flying colors with the idea of what Prometheus was based on.
Just to throw out an example... Daniels and Tennesse are on Origae-6, yet there is nobody with them. It is just Daniels and Tennesse. They are exploring Origae-6 all by themselves. They are alone. They survived. They managed to take what they could from the Covenant and actually made it to Origae-6. They almost died. The Covenant was in complete mutiny. The horrors on that ship seemed almost impossible to stop. Yet, Daniels and Tennesse somehow outsmarted the travesty. Somehow. After they were able to get away from the Covenant, they decided to continue to Origae-6. What else were they supposed to do? It's what they trained for. Yet, they also trained to have more supplies and thousands of colonists to take care of. Still, what else were they supposed to do? They were almost to Origae-6 when the chaos began and with no sleeping pods available after separating the Covenant, they couldn't have made a trip back. Plus, there was obviously not enough fuel for the trip anyways. What else were they supposed to do? Now they are stranded... Discovering Origae-6 all alone with limited amounts of the same technology that was bringing the Earth they left to a decaying rubble and sickness. Maybe this is a good thing Tennessee decides. Yet, Daniels knows that without technology, they were basically unprepared to survive.
Still, this isn't the end of the story because the Engineers know of what happened to Planet 4 and they are looking for answers. The Engineers, for the first time, are scared of the humans. Not in a way they have been before because this time, the humans might win the fight. So, when the Engineers trace the Covenant to Origae-6, they tip-toe their way there and descend to the planet in discrete fashion. So, Daniels and Tennessee slowly intermingle with the Engineer's discrete exploration of the humans that are on Origae-6. Basically, the Engineers and the survivors of the Covenant are both exploring each other very slowly. Daniels and Tennessee are discovering for the first time that humans aren't alone in the universe and they are learning of the Engineers.
I'm not going to go on to how they explore each others capabilities and this is just an example. Still, how they explore each other would set the terror and would probably be about half of the movie.
This way, we keep characters that were developed, yet we get something completely different. We also get to learn new things about the Engineers (this is much needed!). This also follows a similar story like Alien and Prometheus (which are the same in their main idea that both stories were based on).
I feel that terror should be incorporated in simple, yet creative ways to really scare people. It all comes down to how the story is told. Things that people take for granted need to be flipped around on the audience and turned into something scary. Something as simple as walking down a corridor in a ship should be scary. Something as common as giving birth should be turned into something scary (giving birth is already scary enough too!). Something as simple as touching something so intriguing, yet foreign, needs to be turned into something scary. This is how the classic horror movies did it, and this needs to be brought back. Alien did it. Prometheus did it. Alien: Awakening NEEDS to do it.
Terror can be brought into a film, not as filler, but because the movies purpose was to create fear. The story can movie slower to make these simple and common things scary. Maybe Ridley needs to try and slow down the script and allow time to really create something scary instead of filling our minds with what David thinks.
I hope Ridley surprises us with something completely fresh and original WITHOUT David. I think he can do it too. I have nothing against David, but how can a movie be scary when the main character is the villian? Of course, I'm sure something can be worked out. Yet, traditionally, a movie is scary when the main character is NOT the villian. Our only continued character from the prequels is David, which he is interesting. Yet, I could never be scared for David. I don't see how any event happening to David could cause me to feel fear.
I think David can be frightening, but i think your point is if he is the Main Focus and a Antagonist, then other Secondary Characters are the Protagonist, if we cant connect with these innocent characters because DAVID'S Role outshines them.. (Problem with AC) then we cant connect or Sympathize with those Characters if they are not portrayed as being the Main Characters.
Which indeed brings me to your comments.. "The problem I think with the prequels is that there is no continuation for the innocent
Certainly is very true..... with Alien Covenant we can have the next movie build upon Daniels and Tennessee but then the Ending we got does kind of make this difficult... Compared to if Daniels had NO IDEA that Walter was not Walter but she found out latter after the First Act of the next movie.... but then WE the viewers would know David is Walter from the Start and this could effect/limit what kind of impact this has.. or if done well it could have heightened the impact.
But Daniels knowing who Walter is, really does put them into a Corner as far as where to go NEXT.... how can she survive? The only Logical Route would be that David Toys with her.... and in his Arrogance of his Power and Predicament Daniels is in, he underestimates her and takes his eye off the Ball Allowing her to Escape.
I think the idea you propose as a AFTER-MATH movie so we skip a lot leading up to a event where Daniels and a few Survivors Escape from the Covenant to Oriage-6 could be interesting... if we get a Flash Back of some of the Horrific Events on the Covenant, it could work... it limits the Characters which maybe helps when trying to build tension etc
It allows a Character from the first movie to continue her journey...
The movie that would SIT BETWEEN Alien Covenant and your idea, would be something risky, it could be a very Alien meets Alien 3 movie a bit like a Pandorum kind of Flick... but could also not pay off and be nothing NEW if such a Movie that sits between AC and your idea was to happen...
Then this movie... or the start of yours maybe would benefit from showing us the last moments of escaping the Covenant where maybe Tennessee could be used as a Hero, Sacrificing himself.
Your idea based of the assumption we can maybe take, that the Covenant only has that Lander/Loader that Tennessee used to rescue Daniels etc.... as being the only Drop Ship/Lander the Covenant has... is indeed a Plot Device that would allow them to escape to Origae-6 and in effect Strand David on the Covenant.
David would have to try and LAND the Covenant on Origae-6 and it looks to big and fragile to be able to do that, you get the impression a ship like this is built out in space, piece by piece.
Your idea does leave us with a very very interesting way to have David Return in future or the 3rd act, by virtue of a Company Ship arriving to the Covenant.... which provides David a means to Hijack the Ship, infect some Crew and land it on Origae-6 and i think a scene like this where Daniels is Faced with seeing a Rescue Ship arrive.... only to find David on it and then unleashes Xenomorphs on the Surviving Colonist.
I actually like your idea, because it could kind of mix with some of the ideas i had in mind, where we actually arrive at the Colony years latter... now my idea was a bit complex...
YOURS... much simpler by Virtue of only having a LIMITED number of Survivors. So we indeed we could have it where your idea begins with a Flash Back, then fast forwards few years where the Survivors have had to START FROM SCRATCH with only a handful of Tools, and so have had to make Wooden Huts etc.
This kind of Plot where we can have a Flash Back to what happened on the Covenant could work well, if this Flash Back is when Daniels is explaining what happened on the Covenant.. to a incoming ship. The crew of this ship hear her Story, they go back to their ship to contact their other ship thats docking with the Covenant.... but then we have David arrive down with that Ship..
I think this kind of a Plot will introduce the Jeopardy and Terror for Daniels and the Colonist and could very well work...
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
This idea is also a AFTERMATH route, its on idea i mentioned a while back as far as where can the movie go next.... because the other option would be a Horrific One set on the Covenant, that would actually act as a Prelude to I Moon Girls idea
The other option would be again a Aftermath as i discussed as another option (one being based on the Covenant, which i had thought out but actually would have been similar to Pandorum movie, i put this idea on here way prior to even hearing of that movie)
But indeed the other option was a aftermath, where we arrive after the Colony is set up, and Hell has broken loose and a few Survivors are Held up, just as a Company Ship Arrives.,. are they here to SAVE THEM? or have they received Davids Advent Olive Branch and wish to execute a kind of Special Order 937, I think the only Problem with this is it could have the habit of being a Re-hash of ALIENS.
The idea that i had, was offering something a bit different and looking at RS comments, which was less Xeno, more AI and following the Themes of Prometheus and Alien Covenant... but again this would not be a good idea for those who are not into those kinds of themes or exploring the AI part in depth.
I think I Moon Girls idea as a basis, is interesting.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
BigDave said, "Your idea does leave us with a very very interesting way to have David Return in future or the 3rd act, by virtue of a Company Ship arriving to the Covenant.... which provides David a means to Hijack the Ship, infect some Crew and land it on Origae-6 and i think a scene like this where Daniels is Faced with seeing a Rescue Ship arrive.... only to find David on it and then unleashes Xenomorphs on the Surviving Colonist."
I really do like that idea of David somehow returning into the film. It just needs to be done in a way where it could have never been predicted. It also shouldn't be done in a stupid way, like David crashing the Covenant into Origae-6 and somehow ejected out of the ship with a parachute.
Maybe David could have his head ripped off again since Shaw isn't an expert stitcher, so in a fight, it could more easily be ripped off. So, David's head is left on the ship lying around somewhere. Some WY employee sees David's head and listens to his lies. Still, there are more than one WY employee on the ship now and after documenting the mayhem that is on the Covenant, everyone is not to be trusted. So! Instead, David sees that his lies won't work. He thinks to himself, "Fine. If that's the way you want it. FINE!" David then takes over the Covenant because he uploaded some of his programming into the ship. Somehow he gets a spare Walter model in storage to turn on and downloads his programming into it. David doesn't like this because he finds his own body more comforting and better looking too. David/"Walter" then gets on the WY ship as you say and finds a lander of some sort and lands on Origae-6 as a rescue ship. Yet, instead, it's David. Still, when "Walter" walks off the ship, Daniels heart soars, yet she is confused because how could Walter be here? "Walter" walks briskly to Daniels like he's just seen his long-lost lover. As he gets close enough for a hug, HE STABS DANIELS!
Of course, the back story of how David got on the ship would be left to a mystery until the end. So, the audience thinks it is Walter walking off of the ship almost running towards Daniels.
I didn't like how in A:C that some fans knew that Walter was actually David. The fans could tell because of the directing. It's disappointing really. David fooled me though! Still, I think for most viewers, it was predictable.
Indeed thats a nice twist, where Daniels sees a WY ship land and sees a Walter Model walk off the Ship, she may automatically assume its Walter.
My idea for a Alien Covenant sequel does actually involve David Building a Walter on the Covenant and uploading his Soul into it. It would touch a lot upon what is a Soul/Spirit and touch upon once again how David is more than a Robot.... because just as David puts his Soul into Walter, at this Moment David feels he is taking part in a Grand Scheme of his... where he will be back in WHOLE, Resurrected WHOLE, the moment the Re-Built Walter/David awakens and gets to grips with what has happened, he indeed Feels Totally Powerful Resurrected.... its then that the Original David then realizes that despite having his SOUL transferred into a more Superior Body.... David still thinks of himself as Sentient, so we then get to explore the FEAR in David has he realizes while his SOUL is duplicated and his Doppelganger is the same as David in every-way apart from being Mechanically more Advanced.
At this moment David realizes that IF/WHEN he now Dies, he would question would the Doppelganger really be like him, is it that simply to accept moving your SOUL to another body means your current SOUL in your current Body lives on?
I guess the point i am making is if you was faced with a injury and some scientific method had a way to place your Mind/Soul into a New Body like in the movie THE 6TH DAY and when this Transfer is complete you have the injured YOU (say Paralyzed Waist Down) and the NEW You, the New You would look on at your old self and Realized YOU have cheated Death/Disability and view there is no need for the old you... But the Original Paralyzed YOU would maybe still FEAR the inevitable if you NOW had to be KILLED, while it may be that you live on in the other Body, the Question gets raised.... AT THIS MOMENT... do you view it as your not dying because you will live on in the other You... or do you view your Original Body as still being Yourself and Fear for death, even though your Doppelganger is in effect now a 100% Clone, Mind, Body and Soul.
This is a interesting and terrifying conclusion, and its ONE that David in my Alien: Ascension has to Face.. So then DAVID who at first is 100% behind this whole Process as he knows its the only way he can LIVE ON and also CHARADE the Colonists.... at the moment he has done what he aimed to do, he does not view this NEW David as himself he still views himself as himself and tries to make a Covenant with the NEW David, trying to suggest that as a Team they can accomplish so much more..
David Pleads with the Walter.... the response is that what Good is a One Armed Bandit, which David pleads he can Rebuild a Arm and Attach it to himself and together they would be UN-stopable the New David/Walter looks on as if they are considering this Deal... David clouded with Emotion that this could be the END misinterprets that there is a chance... Walter Picks up his Brother goes for the Handshake to make a Deal and then kills him.
As David dies he realizes he should have known this is exactly what he would have done, David knows he only thinks for himself and with TWO Davids, he knows at some point ONE would Betray the other for the greater of themselves.
David's last words "what have you done to me your brother"
Walter/David replies "I know not: am I my brother's keeper?"
As David dies, Walter Closes his Eyes and places his hand on Davids Head and says “A king has his reign and then he dies… it's inevitable"
The aim being that through David we can see and sense the fear that faces all at the time of death, even i knowledge of resurrection. I think Scenes like the Walter/David Prologue would be something that really would be great for Fassbender to Act Out.. more detailed than the limited dialog in AC.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I do really like the philosophical themes with David dying. Biblical lines are another great idea in the story you shared on here. It definitely can turn an Alien movie into something more; into something that will keep the audience thinking about even after they watched the movie some months ago. I really do respect movies that get people to think as well.
I always imagined if an android transferred their "soul" to another android, their consciousness would also transfer. I figured their soul would exist in their programming and if they transferred their programming, their soul would also transfer.
I guess with a human, I image the soul as existing in our brain. So, if a human could somehow transfer their brain to another body successfully, their soul would also transfer too.
There is actually talk of the Chinese attempting to do a head transplant. The reason the Chinese would do it is because most countries in the world do not see a head transplant as an ethically right decision. PLUS! This is actually the main issue I think.
Doctors compare this surgery the Chinese are planning on doing as something along the lines of "super gluing a head on another body". Technically, the head transplant can work with today's science; yet, it isn't the most reliable science to do something like that to a human, morally that is.
I think the Chinese actually have successfully done head transplants on mice. I haven't read anything about them researching if behavior traits transfer as well.
The Transferred Soul was something i was touching up on with a Plot for my Prometheus 2 project which i canned late 2013/Early 2014. I felt the whole Agenda for creating David, the Dream Visor/Capture Technology and Synapses Re-stabilizer where all parts of Weylands Plans to Cheat Death... by first creating the Perfect Host Body (Synthetic) and then finding a way to Upload his Soul into a AI that in effect makes Weyland IMMORTAL
It is what i was drawn to conclude, in 2013.... and its what became OPERATION ROOK in my Sequel Story i began but never finished. It would have been a little bit... Transcendence however lol
When looking latter at the Weyland Viral Marketing for Alien Covenant, and the David Prologue Scene, these seemed to add up to how i interpreted the different David models in the older Prometheus Weyland Viral Site...
Each Prototype David would have his Soul transferred to the next Prototype, this gave David like 69 years of Memories by the time of Prometheus.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I-Moongirl: Yeah it was predictable but I understand how Daniels felt though. That is what saved that scene to me at least. It depends on what kind of perspective that you look at it from. I hope that David will not be featured as much as he was in Alien Covenant because that is one of the problems with that movie, there was no balance.
Pretty much can agree with the whole of that Thoughts_Dreams i have touched on a more detailed response in other threads, regarding how its hard to invest interest in a Robot Character and how AC seemed to not flesh out its Characters much... they all felt near enough like the Star Trek unnamed Away Team Members you know are going to Die and know your not gonna care about it.
I think a real way to invoke Terror is you always have to have a Character built up that you sure as HELL feel is going to survive then place them in situations where you feel they may just not survive. For this TRICK to work you need very good believable secondary Characters to the main 1-2 Characters. Secondary Characters where you feel these guys could well survive and also helps if you can care about or connect with them.
with Alien Covenant, you can tell that Daniels and Tennessee will survive, the only real secondary Characters who would fit the BILL for the TRICK i described above was Lope and Walter, but both of these MEET their Deaths OFF-SCREEN so that was a wasted potential....
When you see a movie Cast, a read the Synopsis, its when you look at the Cast and then you can tell who the 1-3 MAIN Characters are, you can bet 1-2 survive, its then the secondary 2-3 Characters that have to be believable where you really cant be 100% sure if they would die... you have to be thinking more than 50/50 these guys may make it, or they have to have such a Good Character and Back ground that you can feel their pain/terror.. before a movie really works.
A lot of movies lack this though... horror kind of movies that is... you could see the cast of 15 say, and most of the time you can name the 2-3 survivors and get them right, and know the rest are likely to die... so their deaths have no real meaning.
The THING is a prime example... the first time anyone sees this or sees the cast without knowing the Plot... you can surely tell Kurt Russell's Character makes it but then the rest of the cast, your kinda finding it hard to predict ok which of these guys are gonna make it to the last 3?
The 2011 Prequel, was just not the same it was more predictable you knew Windstead (lloyd) and Edgerton (Carter) would make the last 3. You would kinda be able to guess that the others apart from maybe Thomsen (Sanders) would definitely not make it.. so it just was not as tense.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I think a aftermath movie where we follow a incoming Ship/Crew who arrive at the Origae-6 Colony long after a horrific series of events could work...
But it would have to not be too close to another Aliens... it would have to thrown in some different threats.. and so discovering Eggs and Xenomorphs would not be enough if i am honest. But something different could work.
If Alien Covenant never had the Spores/Neomorphs and it was a straight up Egg/Face Hugger Flick i feel it may have pleased some Fanboys more.... but i feel it would have lacked originality because of this.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Sign in to add a reply to this topic!