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Alien: Covenant

Alien: Covenant - Prometheus sequel

Alien: Covenant

The Alien: Covenant, Alien: Awakening & Prometheus Movie Community

daliens

Member

46

Posted Feb-20-2018 12:01 AM

Do you think there was some thought in the back of Ridley's mind (as related to the giants' skeletons / engineers) when he chose "Country Roads" for Alien Covenant?  Or was it deliberate?

I can't stop making connections between West Virginia mound with its giant skeletons arranged in a spoke-like pattern and the dome / pilot chamber with the cryo pods from Prometheus.

What do you think about it?

1. The Criel Mound was excavated in 1883–84 under the auspices of the US Bureau of Ethnology and the supervision of Col. P.W. Norris. The excavation was performed by Professor Cyrus Thomas of the Smithsonian Institution. Inside the mound, Professor Thomas found thirteen skeletons: two near the top of the mound, and eleven at the base. The skeletons at the base consisted of a single very large but badly decayed skeleton at the center, a "once most powerful man" which according to A.R. Sines who assisted Col. Norris in the excavation, measured "Six feet, 8 3–4 inches" (205 cm) from head to heel with broad shoulders, massive teeth and a very thick low and flat skull encased in a large copper headband. This skeleton was surrounded by ten other skeletons arranged in a spoke-like pattern, with their feet pointing toward the central skeleton. The skeletons at the base had been wrapped in elm bark and were lying on a floor of white ash and bark. Several artifacts were found buried with the skeletons, including arrowheads, lanceheads, and shell and pottery fragments. The central skeleton was accompanied by a fish-dart, a lance-head, and a sheet of hammered native copper near the head. Holes found at the base of the mound suggest that the bodies at the base had been enclosed in a wooden vault. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criel_Mound)

2. The Pilot Chamber from the movie Prometheus, with the cryo pods in a spoke-like pattern.  Concept design by Steven Messing:

LV-223 Dome chart / hologram

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

16 Responses to Take me home - West Virginia

daliens

Feb-20-2018 12:33 AM

I know Ridley Scott doesn't particularly like that song and I tend to believe that the song was chosen first, then came that cowboy hat of Tennessee. 

Was it only Shaw's nostalgia or there is some subliminal message to it?

 

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

BigDave

Feb-20-2018 9:49 AM

I can certainly see a connection to The Criel Mound but who knows if this was considered for any influence that we had..

Nice find though ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

daliens

Feb-20-2018 11:27 AM

Thanks BigDave

I'm glad you liked it. 

And it's nice to still find some connections or background stories to these films. 

Still hope that Disney is clever enough to let Ridley Scott finish his prequels to Alien. This universe is bigger than Star Wars.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

BigDave

Feb-20-2018 3:12 PM

Indeed, who knows if they are connections or just coincidence but its fun to find things that could be tied into the Franchise, i did this with my Topic on Ancient Aliens connections where i posted a few Mayan pieces that we could connect to the Franchise lol

I think the Franchise has the potential to be expanded, with the route RS had taken with Prometheus, there really is a lot to the Franchise than just the Derelicts EGGS and Ripley.

However when making any Franchise based expanded movie, and not using the ALIEN: Prefix, gets some fans confused and argue why is this movie/book or what ever connected to Alien if it has NO Alien in the Title.   And then the other side of the coin by having/using the ALIEN: Prefix, it makes Fans Assume it has to be about ALIEN as in Xenomorph

Alien Covenant has disappointed some who feel it was not really a Alien movie, it was a Prometheus 2, it was a Mad Robot movie.  Sorry but it certainly was a ALIEN movie... more so a Alien Origins movie thats now giving the Fans the Answers that they wanted from Prometheus...

But alas... sometimes you need to be careful what you ask for, in case the answers are not what you wished for.

I certainly think RS needs to be given the Chance and more free reign to finish his project off, i cant see him doing another U-Turn with David and showing us that David does not create the Xenomorph.

But with Disney in ownership maybe RS will be Rained in to make Changes to please Fans/Complaints... but maybe once again to the detrimental effect of the BIGGER Picture that Ridley Scott was trying to tell.

Which was that the Pilot of the Derelict was the Bigger Picture here, those Eggs are merely a Bio-Weapon.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

daliens

Feb-21-2018 2:29 AM

Yes, Ridley Scott tried to tell a bigger story, added myths and mystery to the alien universe, unlike the Alien sequels that mostly exploited and cooked the xenomorph. 

Aren't Prometheus and Alien Covenant the only films where the alien survives in the end (the Deacon and the facehugger embryos)?

What Blomkamp wanted to do in his Alien 5? Have Ripley shoot some more xenomorphs? How ridiculous! 

Come on Disney,  let Ridley Scott make the film he is most excited about - the Alien Covenant sequel! 

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

Thoughts_Dreams

Feb-21-2018 6:38 AM

Yeah Alien Covenant was more about a mad robot, which was a disappointment. It is one of the worst alien movies this far which I am sad to say although it was better than Ressurrection and AVP.

Someone needs to keep Ridley in check so we will not get a movie where David is featured in 80% of the scenes even though it is an interesting character. It should be about the human experience in situations that they are badly equipped to handle, not about a crazy robot that is playing a scientist. We need better human characters for the next movie because that has been a failure in Prometheus and Alien Covenant.

daliens

Feb-21-2018 8:33 AM

Thoughts_Dreams

Let's consider David the reason for those situations the humans are badly equipped to handle. I think Covenant ended with a promising story for the next film. Not to mention the two mini facehuggers. 

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

Thoughts_Dreams

Feb-21-2018 8:45 AM

Daliens: I see your point but it is boring since he is a product of human activity and hence too familiar. The Engineers are more alien (no pun intended) and therefore more interesting.

BigDave

Feb-21-2018 4:01 PM

While i can try and see where you are coming from Thoughts_Dreams i think and i dont mean no disrespect you do show how the Franchise is split...  The Franchise as a whole does open up some avenues there is a lot going on behind the scenes, the movies seemed to show us just about Ripley and Queens and Eggs, but under that there is a lot going on that has not been covered until the prequels.

Special Order 937, why Ash was fascinated with the Xenomorph, why the company would persue the Xenomorph, how the company failed to know nothing much about it..  How the Eggs got on the Sulaco.... it all just screams some Conspiracy, but why would the company do this?  Throwing the AI bone into the mix gives us something to think about.... Alien Resurrection, gave us a back ground as far as Call, that shows that AI had got out of control and AI creating AI and leaving Earth and Mankind in a State was something in the back ground...   something that could be explored.

I think the BIG theme with the Franchise and RS is Creation, Sub-Creation, Rebellion and Hubris.... Right from our Engineers, and who knows above them... down to Mankind, David and even as far as latter Androids creating other Androids.

There is a Market for a Expanded Universe that steers away from Queens, Eggs and Ripley....  which i think Prometheus had started to Explore, but in reaction to Fans wanting it to be about the Xenomorphs, we got Alien Covenant, where maybe RS as a big F-U put that David created the Xenomorph in... or maybe as he said he felt the motives just felt more sinister and fitted within the whole Creator/Creation/Rebellion and Sub-Creation/Hubris Arc.

I think the Franchise is Split... i can see RS had ideas to expand it beyond the Xenomorph which for what? 30 years RS had always seen as just a Bio-Weapon? 

The Franchise is not just about the Xenomorph... and Ripley, there is quite a bit really.

Space Jockey, Race, Agenda and Purpose and why they was on LV-426

The Company Merger... what conspiracy is involved in the pursuit of the Xenomorph.

The Hubris/Effect of Creating a AI and how this can Evolve, and this is not something that Prometheus started... Alien Resurrection we see the after effects of such things.

The Story does not have to be about Ripley or some Ripley Saga were Prequels connect to Ripleys Parents and latter movies to Ripleys Off Spring.... some FANS may feel Ripley is as much to the Franchise as the Skywalkers are to Star Wars.

some hold out for the Xenormorph to not be a created Species but natural Species that have a Homeworld, Bio-Mechanical Ships etc and feel being relegated to just a Bio-Weapon is a injustice.

Ideally we need 2-3 movies that can Span different aspects of the Franchise, one to cover Xenomorphs and one to cover Engineers and one to cover the AI...

Sadly when you try and cover all 3 its hard and not everyone can be pleased.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Feb-21-2018 4:08 PM

I certainly would like to see some ideas where you Thoughts_Dreams would take the Franchise now..  I get the feeling the Engineers where interesting to you, and i think they certainly are something that needs to be explored more.

While you may thing David is boring because he is the Product of Human Activity, we are really to the Engineers, maybe just as David is to us... The Difference being ONE Creation is Organic, the other is Synthetic,  Ridley Scott was trying to touch upon how maybe the Engineers Creations have Created something more Perfect than the Engineers did because David is more superior to us, and he has followed this up by showing us that David could control the Black Goo and Perfect its outcome more than the Engineers could.... RS was also trying to touch on what what makes a Soul, is there GOD, a After-Life,?

If there is no GOD, if we have NO After Life and when we Die we turn to Dust.... but then if a AI that is killed can have its Memories uploaded to a New Unit and AI has the capacity for very Human Emotions and then seeing themselves as Sentient... then would that not make them have Souls when we dont?

Its these things RS was touching on, but its these themes that a number of people feel should be kept to the Blade Runner Franchise.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

Feb-25-2018 4:29 AM

Big Dave: No offense taken, it is all good.

I think that it is all fine that people prefer different things. It would be boring if everyone pointed at something and said that's it. Some podcasts complain about a lack of a united fanbase but I think that it is to an extent is a good thing because it opens up for discussions.

There is definitely more to the franchise than Ripley and eggs. I am not against all new ideas it is just that they got to be somewhat consistent and have good human characters.

Sure they could explore the company a bit more, that could be interesting. They tried a bit with Weyland but unfortunately he was not portrayed very well. I am not very interested in the AI thing, it should focus more on the humans, the company, science, and human greed. One could say that a theme could be when is science good and bad? What is the point of finding new thing, and so on.

Creation could be an interesting thing it is just that they have focused too much on androids at the expense of the human characters but I kind of understand the theme. Unfortunately there is no balance the way it is now.

Maybe it was an emotional thing that he decided to let David be the creator of the Xeno but that shows that it is bad to act on emotions.

There are many things that they can explore, that is fine but they got to keep interesting characters that we care for. Keeping Ripley outside the prequels have been fine to me, they should continue with that I think. I can understand that many feel that Ripley is a central part of it, but I disagree. She could be replaced with another character and it could work just fine.

If they shall let the Xeno be a bio-weapon then they got to make the creators of this as an interesting thing. This is where the idea of David would not hold. Having the Engineers more involved in it would be interesting since that would be less linked to humans I believe. Sure I kind of understand why someone would like David to be the creator of it and it sounds fine on paper but in reality it is a disappointment I think.

Some ideas: Maybe explore the company a bit more and let them have interesting characters. They might not be nice but they need to be well-developed as characters so they are interesting. I would like to see more about the Engineers and their society, agenda, and their connection to the goo and the Xeno. Get a writer that is good at writing characters. Keep the humans in front and David a bit in the background, the human adventure is what counts.

Nah, David is not boring it is just that he is featured too much in the movie so everything else becomes secondary. I got to say that he was better in Prometheus compared to Covenant, he was more gray in Prometheus which was more interesting.

Ingeniero

Feb-27-2018 9:02 AM

The diagram shown at the Criel Mound (above) sure has similarities to the pyramid scan on LV-223 (below).

BigDave

Mar-01-2018 4:00 PM

@Thoughts_Dreams

You certainly are very correct that for many a movie works if we can connect with the Characters, and indeed since after Alien 3 sadly most Characters are merely Plot Devices, or used to bring about the Plot Devices.

I think a lot of fans associated the Franchise with Ripley and while letting go of this for some is not bad, the Main thing the Franchise was about is the XENOMORPH which is something over exploited and something that has to be handled with Care in Future....

This is where the Prequels came in, to try and give us something else, which was to cover the Space Jockey and Tease at how those Eggs came to be...

Sadly for many the path of Prometheus was not interesting, a lot of fans could not separate it from Alien, and would always expect any Prequel to have to introduce and explain the Xenomorph and so thats what we got..

And so as we have DAVID who seems to be the Main Focus on the Franchise now as far as Prequels,  as a antagonist he out-shines the protagonists that had been introduced, and people just could not connect with Dr Shaw, and  then she was Written Off, people had a hard time connecting with Daniels and the Ending of AC does not look to good for her being the main protagonist in the next movie.

so its  a case of starting from scratch again... how do they do this and introduce Characters we can connect with?

I see your points about DAVID... because i feel a lot of people cant accept he is more than just a Robot... and that means people cant connect with a Character if they dont see any Human Qualities to him, let alone as he has been portrayed as the BAD GUY so its hard to get the viewers to feel anything for a Artificial Creation... i guess some people would feel BAD for JHONNY 5 from Short Circuit if he came to a SAD ENDING but that kind of Kiddy movie would not have the same effect as if ET was to die etc.

so that Example above shows how caring for a Robot is harder than a actual living Organism, especially when the said Robot is the Villain....      This applies more so when they take up the most of the Story.......

i think the other problem is that ALIEN was so unique so ALIEN that when we saw the Derelict, the Space Jockey and then those Eggs..... way back then way back in the 70's, 80's or even way prior to the Prequels when someone watched ALIEN for the first time, the thoughts around THIS SHIP, THAT CARGO and THE PILOT for most of us would have been something so unimaginably NOT Human.... that Giant (not so) Bald Humanoids (especially in AC) as the Space Jockey and then a Human Creation a Android... actually creating the Xenomorph is just SOOOO NOT ALIEN enough.

Can you imagine if someone from the Future Traveled back to the Time when Aliens or Alien 3 came out or abouts and then CLAIMED they knew what the Space Jockey was and how those Eggs came to be... and said..

"oh yeah those Eggs are created basically by a earlier version of Bishop"   

WHAT? HOW? WHEN? WHY?

"oh because the some 7ft Tall Uncle Fester Looking dudes created some Biological Substance to use on Mankind, and the Android uses this to create the Xenomorph"

HANG ON..... WHAT AND WHY

"well because these Uncle Festers Created Mankind, and we had turned out to be a disappointment so they created something to destroy us but lost control of it, and the Human created Android just uses this stuff to create Xenomorphs, because he too hates his creators"

This in a Nutshell is what we have, and while its not so bad, for the a majority of fans i think we can ASSUME its not how many would have liked those answers.  its just not as ALIEN as the Derelict Scenes and HR Gigers Twisted Artwork.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Mar-01-2018 4:01 PM

@Ingeniero

Nice comparison ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

Mar-03-2018 1:37 PM

Big Dave:

I associated the franchise with Ripley since that is the way that it developed. She was the only one left in Alien 3 after the first movie so it is not strange if people get that impression but I think that it has got more to do with the themes. To me the franchise was not even about the Xeno, it was about people that get into situations that they are not prepared to handle and that is why we need characters to care for.

Trying to introduce new things in not bad but it depends on how it is done and how they handle the human characters. This far that have not gotten the characters right or the Engineers.

Prometheus had interesting ideas but failed in how a lot of it was executed and worse how the humans were written. I would gladly have followed the tale of the Engineers if they would have spent more focus and time to get them right and also the humans. The android part is probably not that high up on my list about things that I care about in the franchise. My thing is that if a movie is in the alien universe then automatically you want to have a Xeno connection and if you don’t get that then don’t use the alien verse to tell the story in. However just because it has a Xeno connection (the Deacon for example)  doesn’t mean that we need another movie with Xenos running around, we already have Aliens for that it is just that we need a better Xeno connection and better characters since we need to care about them for the movie to work.

The main problem with AC was that the characters were weak and that too much time was spent on the androids. I don’t watch an alien movie to watch androids talking about Shelley and what ever, I understand that the scene was partially to tell that David had gone mad but it was too slow and the main focus on the androids meant that we were given a story that at least I was not very interested in (a story about a crazy robot). Fassbender was good but the focus in the movie was wrong, that is one way to sum it up.

“so its  a case of starting from scratch again... how do they do this and introduce Characters we can connect with?”

Exactly, this is the main thing but never the less it is the most important thing. Like someone in a podcast said, cool tech is not enough if we do not get characters to care for. They said that in an episode of the Perfect organism podcast and they are absolutely right.

Um it is not impossible to make good prequels to Alien, it is jut difficult.

BigDave

Mar-03-2018 3:17 PM

Totally agree....

A main part of the Franchise was to deal with fear of the unknown, a unseen Terror and Predicaments people are just not cut out for and then seeing how they deal with the situation.   Its what really made ALIEN what is was.

For anything like this to happen, you need Characters you can relate to, so you can feel their fear and tension and when characters are not done well or invested in then the audience will just not connect and thus wont feel the fear/tension.

The best Example is Star Trek, a lot of episodes we get the Away Team sent down which includes a number of the main Cast, and yet its the unknown members of the crew who usually face the most fear/terror and bad situations but these are throw away characters and so we dont connect with them and so when Away Team member 5 and 6 Die, they have no real effect on us because we are simply never connected to the Character.

Sadly for Prometheus and Alien Covenant (you could say Alien Resurrection too) nearly all the Characters just felt like that unnamed member of the Star Trek away team.

I can see you point regarding a Robot... if a Robot is the main Focus of the movies, and especially if they are the Antagonist, how can people feel a sense of connection to any situations a None-Human Character gets into.... AC left little room for other Characters i can agree with that.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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