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Alien: Covenant

Alien: Covenant - Prometheus sequel

Alien: Covenant

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If David created the classic xenomorph, how did thousands of eggs get aboard the derelict ship in the original Alien?

Ati

Member

715

Posted Feb-02-2018 5:36 PM

'There are currently two schools of thought on that: one where David was the first to create the classic Xenomorph, and one where he simply recreated a process via his experimentation that others had already mastered. And which theory is correct depends on the age of the derelict ship in Alien (1979).

It is often presumed that the derelict ship found on LV-426 in Alien had been there for thousands of years because Dallas makes a comment about the corpse of the pilot looking "fossilized". However, as Prometheus highlighted, the Engineers wear a suit and helmet that resembles an exoskeleton, and so this may appear to look like fossilized remains when in actuality it isn't (the crew of the Nostromo did not make a thorough examination of the pilot, merely a brief visual inspection and an assumption). At the time, the makers of Alien kept everything about the ship purposely vague, so the pilot and derelict ship could have crashed on LV-426 much more recently, after Alien Covenant, but perhaps only years or even months before the Nostromo was rerouted there. Given the fact that Alien: Covenant takes place only 19 years before Alien, it is possible we will see the derelict ship crash on the planet in a future film.

If we assume this to be the case, then David may have created the first Xenomorph, but it should also be noted that David's version differs somewhat from the classic Alien Xenomorph in a few places. First, when it hatches, it seems to be covered in some kind of amniotic sac, and it is already fully formed, with an elongated head and limbs. This is in contrast to the classic chestburster, which was much more snake-like and did not have limbs. As David explains, the black mutagen from Prometheus can exist in many forms: as a liquid and even in an airborn gaseous form. Different forms of the mutagen combined with different lifeforms can produce wholly different results. So far, we have seen the mutagen decimating everything in its gaseous form; it can mutate a corpse in liquid form, create snake-like creatures from worms, giant squid-like facehugger embryos inside humans, and so on. In Alien: Covenant, its airborne form can create Neomorphs directly inside a living host, completely bypassing any egg or facehugger stage. So, David's Xenomorph may have been created by a process almost, but not quite, similar to the one that would later produce the Xenomorph from Alien, but he could indeed have been the first to create a Xenomorph.

The other theory assumes that the Engineer aboard the derelict ship is fossilized, or at the very least "dead a long time", and had crashed there considerably longer than 19 years before. Some assume that it was one of the Engineer ships that left LV-223 (the planet seen in Prometheus) during the outbreak of the black substance hundreds of years before (as witnessed by the Prometheus crew in a hologram). Assuming that the ship is very old, then the Xenomorphs aboard had probably been created before David even existed, and the Engineers would be their most logical creators. They may have discovered the Xenomorph the same way David did: by experimenting with the mutagen, and combining it with insects as well as several other species from their homeworld. It is even hinted that David may have used some parts from Elizabeth Shaw's body (which seems to be lacking several abdominal organs), possibly for use in creating the Xenomorph eggs (which may explain the subtle differences in appearance between his Xenomorph and the one from Alien). David may have had many trial and error attempts to get it to that stage, but if this theory is correct, he basically recreated a process that had been mastered years or even centuries before.

All of this is speculation, as no film in the series has (yet) given exclusive evidence, but it's possible and even likely that it will be explained in the next sequel.'

Source: imdb / Alien Covenant

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2316204/

44 Responses to If David created the classic xenomorph, how did thousands of eggs get aboard the derelict ship in the original Alien?

dk

Feb-02-2018 6:10 PM

I don't think they thought about all of this in the 1970s. They probably did not anticipate a fan base to pick it apart 40 years later either. Unfortunately for RS, we DID pick up on it and now he has some explaining to do- and it seems some will not like how he does it either way.

To the question, I like to think that those eggs were in the egg silo Giger designed. The ship crash could have been some bad luck. We see the derelict apparently on a planet surface with no sign of an egg silo, but it was there for a long time, enough time to appear fossilized. With that wind whipping about, the silo could have become buried. But that makes it seem like the Derelict was teetering on the silo when it landed. Maybe it didn't crash. Maybe it landed atop the silo and chaos happened after that. The pilot decided to leave but died first. 

 

Yes, I know it is unlikely, but the intentional ambiguity allows the possibility.

 

I think the eggs were there and for reasons discussed in another thread, they ditched the silo idea.

BigDave

Feb-02-2018 6:26 PM

Well this comes from the U-Turn by Ridley Scott and FOX, Alien always left this a Mystery but it was one that Ridley Scott had said a long time ago had taken place THOUSANDS if not Hundreds of Thousands of years ago (various comments from the 80's and 90's).  When work began on the Prequels, which started to evolve to Alien Engineers and later Prometheus, the idea was cemented by RS as being THOUSANDS of years ago.  He even then basically gave us the date of WITHIN a few HUNDRED years of the LV-223 OUTBREAK

This puts it within the 1800-2200 years ago Ball Park, well actually leaving TWO Scenarios...

1) The Black Goo Experiments on LV-223 had taken place a few hundred years after the Space Jockey/Derelict incident and the Eggs are the Source of their Experiments (Re-Engineer the Xenomorph)

2) The Space Jockey/Derelict event had taken place a few hundred years after the LV-223 Outbreak and so the Xenomorph was a Evolution/Mutation from the Outbreak.

HOWEVER... Ridley Scott may have suggested all of this for years, but the Movies never made any of it CLEAR, it was kept AMBIGUOUS and so on Screen, we are only given clues that Allude to the Xenomorph and LV-223 Experiments being connected, and maybe some clues that MAYBE the Outbreak is Related.

But since Alien Covenant has offered a Curve-Ball who knows what the deal is now, it appears that DAVID is the Creator, but the Novel seems to hint at him Experimenting with a Egg he had not Created, we have to wonder how ADF got this wrong?  Or was at some stage in Production and Draft Stages, things got changed to make David the Creator?

I cant say for sure if the Source i had from Feb 2015 is correct, but they CLAIMED that David would be RE-CREATING it and so by showing HOW he does this would give us clues to HOW it was done in the past. This seems to be the clues a bit in ADF's Novelization (Re-creation/Evolution).

But it appears RS at Present is going with the idea that... NO DAVID = No Derelict and Eggs.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Feb-02-2018 6:39 PM

Indeed DK

Ridley Scott had ideas how he would have continued the Franchise prior to Camerons Aliens and one of the interesting ideas he had was that the sequel we would go to WHERE the Eggs and Space Jockey came from and it would have been a very Giger-esque World.  I am sure all of us would love to see that!

At the moment, the whole Aesthetic Difference of the Derelict/Juggernaught would maybe have to be addressed, RS had said they are related, but they differ in terms of a few hundred years Technology wise? well his comments are ambiguous so he maybe does not mean Technology, but maybe just Age... as in ONE ship has been on LV-426 others LV-223 separated by Hundreds of years.  Because well for a Ancient Race i would not expect the Engineers to bring out a NEW MODEL Juggernaught every few hundred years ;)

The other issue is the Cargo Hold, but this is debated in THIS thread already.

IF we assume David is the creator, then to get to ALIEN there are a few events that need to happen.

*We can assume David is on the Covenant and thus regardless of if he tries to create more Eggs on the journey or when he arrives at Origae-6, i think we can safely assume David will arrive at Origae-6 prior to when those Eggs ever get on a Engineer Ship...  THIS MEANS... by the year 2112 there would be NO EGGS on LV-426

*Davids Creation has some way to EVOLVE before we get to the Classic 1979 Xenomorph, and so we have to wonder HOW/WHEN/WHY his creation gets Evolved, does David do it, the company? Engineers? etc.

*Engineers will be returning and no doubt be on course to where David is off to (Origae-6) i think the Engineers are thus the Plot Device (at least their Ship is) to get those Eggs from Origae-6 and then off to the System that Holds LV-223 and LV-426.   The Question is WHY?  as that System is NO-WHERE near Origae-6

The only Logical Explanation would be a incoming Engineer or related Race Ship, encounters Davids Xenomorphs, and then attempts to take them to LV-223 to EVOLVE and then leaves LV-223 but ends up only as far as LV-426

I will have to start work on my Part 2/3 of the Prequels, which i will be calling Alien: Ascension  then go to Alien: Awakening. Where i will be addressing those very things..  The time line i propose however is that the Derelict ends up on LV-426 for 7 years prior to ALIEN

But i am pondering a BOMBSHELL Pun intended, that introduces us to Creation Tools those above the Engineers use...  I will be making a Topic on this Plot Element some time this week... as far as connecting to Ancient Creation Mythos and bringing the 1979 ALIEN Poster into context..

A additional Part of the Plot for the last movie that will EXPLAIN why the Space Jockey looked Thousands of Years old.... and WHY no one goes back to LV-223 at the time of Alien.... and YES Time Travel is involved but not in the way you think ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

dk

Feb-02-2018 6:51 PM

It seems the lay person like me can't get too wrapped around the axle with time lines because it makes little or no sense as you pointed out BigDave. I like to go back to the basics of the 70s but here we are with the David aspect. That is not a bad thing at all, but it seems each movie brings more questions than answers.

BigDave

Feb-02-2018 7:05 PM

True, i think while it may seem a good idea to REVEAL David as the Creator, following the Creation Themes and Rebellion that Prometheus set up, the Irony that the Engineers experimented/created something Horrific to Destroy their Wayward creations because they feared what would become of us.  But in their Hubris they failed to Control it.    Which left Mankind to indeed Evolve Technologically and explore the Stars and follow the Star Maps leading them to that Place of Death for those Engineers.

The biggest Hubris for them, being that Mankind even Evolves so far that they created their own Creation, DAVID who by his vary creation has set Mankind on the same path of the Engineers, which is in hindsight Sub-creating something that would eventually rebel against its reasons for being created.

Mankinds Hubris potentially could come at the hands of Sub-Creating David, as they also in Hubris go in search of our own Creators, but finding a World of Death...  Events that Set David free, and off to explore where our CREATORS really come from, revealing that David has his own Agenda, where he will FINISH what the Engineers started and use this against those Engineers, before Perfecting it to use on Mankind.

What a Calamity for the Engineers, had they decided to not Create Mankind, there would be no need to try and Destroy us with the Bio-Weapon they created, having this Weapon Turn against them, only to then have their Fears Come True, when Mankind Evolves Technologically to reach the Stars, but also Creates AI as in DAVID who then Ultimately Decimates even more of the Engineers than was destroyed on LV-223.

I can see why RS chose this route....

THE PROBLEM.... by going this U-Turn did Ridley Scott not conceive what changes this makes to EVERYTHING as far as Time-Line and other such things?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Feb-02-2018 7:15 PM

There is hope though......

*The Aesthetics of the Derelict are slightly different and more Bio-Mechanical than the Juggernaught, as i know some fans are disappointed with the lack of Giger Aesthetic we see in the Engineers, especially how even more toned down Alien Covenant was compared to Prometheus. WILL the DERELICT be shown to be a Different kind of Ship and Explain WHY it looks different?

*Fans are also disappointed a bit with the Engineers, especially Alien Covenants, they just dont seem as AWE INSPIRING and as ENIGMATIC as the Space Jockey. Then there is the Size Difference, our Engineers appear to be between 6.5-7.5ft tall, the Space Jockey was about 12-15ft tall.  THESE could be FIXED with the introduction of ANOTHER Race.

*The Xenomorph lacks the Aesthetic of the 1979 one at the moment, it needs to become more Mechanical, and so some kind of EVOLUTION must happen.

*Then the Xenomorph has to end up on LV-426 which is close to LV-223, and so a Engineer or similar Race Ship must end up taking Davids Creations to that system.... WHY? I guess the Logical Explanation is WHY did those LV-223 Engineers Worship the Deacon Mural?  They obviously saw this Organism as PERFECTION its safe to assume maybe those who created the Deacon, would view DAVID'S Xenomorph was maybe more of a PERFECTION and so could attempt to take it to LV-223 to EVOLVE/PERFECT it more.

To the Space Jockey's Hubris.

I think these points if explored, could give us a introduction to a more Sinister Agenda, introduce us to a different Race, thats more Giger-esque and make the Franchise a bit more Alien and Alluring  and make our Space Jockey once again a ENIGMATIC SPECIES.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

dk

Feb-02-2018 7:16 PM

I like the direction you take- sort of a lesson/cautionary tale story. 

 Add some "chicken or the egg" brain game too.

I am at a point where I would like to see it all end- even if I don't agree with it. There should be closure.

BigDave

Feb-02-2018 7:24 PM

Sure... Closure..

One that allows however for Future movies to be more ALIEN based, but then also allow for other movies to be LESS Alien, they began this Journey with Prometheus, which was toned down from Alien Engineers and hoped to provide a few clues to ALIEN so they can shut the door on that case, while keeping the Mystery and then explore sequels to Prometheus that would STEER away from ALIEN.

However the ambiguity of Prometheus, the lack of Alieness and answers to ALIEN meant that Fans had problems with Prometheus and the sequel plans, and FOX then took this on board and U-Turned with Alien Covenant.  IF Prometheus had more Alieny Encounters, if it provided more clues, then Ridley Scott could have shut the DOOR to Alien.

Then moved on with the Space Jockey/Engineers.

I feel they need to make the next movie one that would CLOSE THE DOOR to Alien, i cant see Alien Fans waiting TWO more movies for these Answers which Sadly means most of what ever RS had planned would have to be By-Passed.

This then opens the Door in future for RS to cover some of his ideas in Parallel movies or even a movie that covers the events prior to what ever his FINAL piece of the Puzzle Movie would have been.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

ignorantGuy

Feb-02-2018 11:18 PM

BigDave

What future? RS is 80 now and Disney does not seem to eager to do something in the Alien universe. I don't think we can expect more then one movie now.

Gavin

Feb-03-2018 1:27 PM

My 2 cents,

I have always maintained that the "Egg Silo" was a separate structure and not, as many people have argued, a part of the derelict. Although some have argued the possibility of "Doctor Who" like technology, the layout of the silo would make for one ugly extension to the form of a Juggernaut. When I see the silo scene I clearly see a dome-like structure, not too unlike those on LV-223, but in this case being mostly hollow and housing thousands if not millions of eggs.

I believe that the domes in Prometheus and the airlock opening on the underside of the Juggernaut in Covenant are Ridley's way of showing what happened - that the derelict landed on top of a dome, opening its "belly airlock" to connect with the structure.

As for David, I think it is clear from the Deacons appearance in Prometheus and the murals seen inside one of the domes on LV-223 that David did not create the Xenomorph - the Xenomorph is an ancient creation and the end result and whole purpose of the Black Pathogen, as in most cases contamination results in the formation of Xenomorph qualities, likely sourced from Xenomorph DNA within the Black Pathogen. All David did was create a variant of the creature, which if Awakening is ever made will be revealed to be inferior to the form we were introduced to in Alien, the biomechanical form favored by the Engineers.

Ati

Feb-03-2018 4:28 PM

Thx for the comments.

Gavin - 'I have always maintained that the "Egg Silo" was a separate structure..'

I'm sure the Egg Silo will be revealed in the direct Alien prequel as a separate facility

chli

Feb-04-2018 1:20 AM

If we stick to the stupid idea that David created the xenomorph (it’s really super stupid since we have the background story of what happened on LV-223), how did he manage to create all these eggs in 18 years?

First of all, it’s about 7 years to Oregae- 6 from Planet 4. He might, of course, have experimented on the 2000 colonists aboard The Covenant (including Daniels) and Origae-6 might, in fact, be LV-426? It’s possible, but if it isn’t he needs to transport these eggs (thousands) to LV-426 and plant them in the cave there or, which is impossible, the eggs are in the cargo hold (which one and how big is this if we don’t go by Doctor Who).

Also, everyone with eyes (including Dallas) can see that the space jockey is a skeleton (fossilised) and not a space suit. I think that RS has lost interest in the franchise and I’m glad that Blomkamp is planning a new alien movie.

BigDave

Feb-04-2018 9:18 AM

These are just my own observations so i dont intend to discredit anyone, we are all entitled to our own options.

The Space Jockey to me has elements that appear to look like a Skeleton, but then so many flaws thats its not, if its a Skeleton then its basically a Cartoony Interpretation of one, the Skull is certainly something that may appear Organic, but it looks more like a Mummified Skull than a Skeletal one.  The HOSE/SNORKEL kind of looks less Organic, and connected to the lower half of its body, this could be some bizarre Organic Anatomy, but when referring to HR Gigers Concept its clearer this Trunk is some kind of Breathing Apparatus.   The RIB-CAGE does look more Skeletal, but how it Protrudes out in the Center where the Trunk Connects looks bizarre but then thats not to say that Alien Organisms can not be a little different to Normal Anatomy.  The ARMS/SHOULDERS which includes the Hands are the biggest give away, that dont look like a Skeletal remains at all, unless we look at some Cartoony/Disney/Pixar interpretation of a Skeleton, and then we have what look like Wires/Tendons that connect to the Chair and a number of Circular points.  Again when looking at HR Gigers Concept we can see the whole Arm does not look Skeletal, it implies something that connects via wires to the Chair.

I assume Origae-6 is NO-WHERE near LV-426, unless we go the route that LV-426 is NO-WHERE near LV-223 but we have evidence to suggest they are both in and around the Zeta 2 System and under 40 LY away.  In the year 2093 the Prometheus arrives having completed about a 2 year journey to that System, in the year 2122 the Nostromo would take 10 Months to arrive back to our Solar System, The Covenant is still nearly 7.5 years (7.35) away from Origae-6 and we dont know how long it has left our Solar System, but it had stopped to do a RECHARGE so this is at least ONE, which looking at evidence presented it would appear thus the Covenant had departed Earth at least 9-12 months prior. But it could have been a number of years.  So the Covenant is at least about 8.5 years Travel from Earth, but we dont know how much more advanced the Speed is compared to the Prometheus and Nostromo.  But i would still assume Origae-6 is further than the LV-426/223 Systems, unless the Covenant really is like slower than the Prometheus, but then this would PLACE Planet 4 pretty much right on our Door Step.

Again who knows what will be revealed on both these accounts.

Regarding the Cargo Hold the Juggernaught layout shows at least TWO Cargo Holds, i can provide some evidence for this, but i can safely assume that the Cargo Hold in Prometheus which leads to the LEFT side of the Pilot/Control Room if we are looking at it from the Vaginal Opening POV.   The Cargo Hold Davis is in when he Bombards the Engineers is on the RIGHT, these Cargo Holds are Large but are located to the Right/Left of the Pilot Room.   The opening that David Bombards the Engineers from, is not visible in Prometheus but it is located to the Right of the Right Vaginal Opening, and located nearly half way deep inside the Ship.  So this HOLE does not line up with under the Pilot Chamber... HOWEVER we are talking the Juggernaught here, and the Derelict layout could be completely different. 

From the  Floor Level of the Cargo Bay to the Under Carriage of the Ship is about 10-50 Feet, its hard to get a exact match, as the bay appears to be 10ft when David is Bombing the Engineers, and other shot in Alien Covenant.  But the Schematics of the Juggernaught compared to Level they walk into the Cargo Hold compared to the bottom of the Juggernaught is about 40-50 feet (using Vaginal Openings as Scale).  I can only conclude that the Cargo Hold actually Lowers, while the Urns are Raised and then a Port Hole opens up beneath.

The Cargo Hold/Egg Silo in Alien is between 90-100 Feet High, not includes any padding from floor to the base of the Derelict or between the Pilot Seat Platform and Ceiling of the Egg Silo, i would assume we are looking at 10-15ft extra in either case.    So i would assume the Space Required under the Hole on the Pilot Chamber Floor to the Base of the Derelict to fit the Cargo Hold etc would need to be at least 120ft, looking at the Vaginal Openings and size...  the space between the Pilot Chair Platform to base of the Derelict has to be 20-30ft Maximum.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Feb-04-2018 9:35 AM

The Clues in Prometheus are ambiguous and inconclusive regarding the Xenomorph, other than the Deacon, the Black Goo and Hammerpede, Trilobite are all Genetically Connected.  It was so open to debate that it left just these options.

*Black Goo comes from something Ancient related to the Xenomorph/Deacon. (maybe Fresco Creature), thus the Xenomorph is something Evolved/Created from the this.

*Black Goo, the Fresco and Xenomorph come from the Deacons DNA.

*Black Goo, Fresco and Deacon come from Xenomorph DNA

*The Black Goo is the Source of all those Creatures, Deacon, Fresco, Xenomorph etc.

When i say Deacon i mean the Mural Organism.

All we know is the LV-223 Outpost, Black-Goo and experiments are Connected to all of the above, we just dont 100% know what order.   The clues was sugesting the Xenomorph in Alien is connected to some events of LV-223, IT EITHER

*Predated the Outbreak, thus maybe the Eggs are the Source/Basis for the LV-223 Experiments.

*Occurred after the Outbreak and the Eggs are a Evolved from those LV-223 Experiments.

Ridley Scott had even explained the events happened within a Few Hundred years of the Outbreak so thats either 150-250 years Prior, or 150-250 years Post the LV-223 Outbreak some 2000 years ago...  But then here is where it gets TRICKY with Ridley Scotts Contradicting words... In one interview he claimed the Derelict Predates the Juggernaught by a FEW Hundred years, but then he also said in another that SOMETHING Evolved in the Cargo Hold and it got to the Space Jockey.   So we are still left with likely the Space Jockey/Derelict.

*Predated the Outbreak, thus maybe the Eggs are the Source/Basis for the LV-223 Experiments.

*Occurred after the Outbreak and the Eggs are a Evolved from those LV-223 Experiments.

HOWEVER...

All of this has potentially changed with the U-Turn in Alien Covenant as David is the Creator of the Xenomorph, so it will be interesting to see how they tackle the ANSWERS and will they FIX/ADDRESS the Size Discrepancy of how the Cargo Hold is at VERY least 100ft to Tall to fit under the Derelict, never-mind the other dimensions of the Cargo Hold.  And that the Space Jockey is at least 50% Taller than the Engineers (assuming Space Jockey Suited Engineers are supposed to be 8 feet tall)

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Feb-04-2018 10:13 AM

I have used various other images to try and gauge the size of the Egg Chamber components which has lead me to a Width of the 3 Sections within each part thats broken up to be Between 50-60 Feet Wide, and looking at other images i have estimated the Height to be 80-100 Feet (Internal Height) These are rough Guess work though.

But i would safely assume the Height from Pilot Chair Floor to Bottom of the Derelict has to be 100-125 Feet, the other dimensions are hard to Gauge but the distance Wall to Wall has to be 150-200ft?  And from what we can see the distance from where Kane Lands to as far as the Eye can see has to be at least 300ft but could be up to 450ft? which means the Cameras Total Shot is a good 400-500Ft  and we have to assume the Total Length of the Cargo Hold has to be at least 2-3X this.

The Derelict is not 1000-1500 Feet Long at Widest Point, and depends on the Layout of the Egg Chamber, because if this is  Circular kind of Chamber then the Derelict would have to be 1500-2000ft to incorporate it and then, the Wall to Wall Width would also be way to deep for the Derelict.   Then we have the Height, the Cargo Hold is at least as tall as the Derelict, and looking at the Space Bellow the Pilot Chair its about 100ft too short at least.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

Feb-05-2018 10:31 AM

The mural in Prometheus makes it interesting, it is logical that the Xeno existed before David made his version (the mural in Prometheus). Eventually it will make more sense in the timeline if we look at the Engineers being dissatisfied with the human ways and trying to upgrade things now and then so they make the Xeno to cleanse worlds like mankind on earth. My suggestion is that they have made that version sometimes before David made his version (in the year 2000 +) or where ever AC is supposed to take place.

I would not mind if the Engineers find David’s egg and try to evolve it so an Engineer is the SJ in the 1979 movie. To me this would hurt less than having David responsible for the 1979 version. Engineers are bigger than David but smaller than the SJ so they are closer to the SJ in size hence it if more logical to let the SJ being an Engineer.

This is what I think could happen if we look at it logically:

"The only Logical Explanation would be a incoming Engineer or related Race Ship, encounters Davids Xenomorphs, and then attempts to take them to LV-223 to EVOLVE and then leaves LV-223 but ends up only as far as LV-426."

The difference is that David’s monsters have not been born yet so there is only eggs.

“… from the Deacons appearance in Prometheus and the murals seen inside one of the domes on LV-223 that David did not create the Xenomorph...”

Maybe David was not involved in the Deacon but in the Xeno so that mural might be something that they encountered before? There are many possibilities that can be from that thing but I hope that you are right that the Xenois is older than David’s creation

“I think that RS has lost interest in the franchise...“

That might be the case but I am not looking forward to an eventual Alien 5.

Theseus

Feb-07-2018 5:39 PM

I suppose there could be a sister Engineer/Juggernaut race from another planet in the region to explain the size difference of the space jockey. Or they're from the same planet. Maybe they don't have hypersleep chambers because their ships don't travel very far. The sj ship could have been a short-distance transport ship.

To tie David's work to Alien might require the space jockey to visit the Engineer's world after David had left with the Covenant, collect the data, maybe re-vive Walter to get info, re-create the eggs, leave the planet for an LV moon, hits a wormhole and travels back in time 1800 years but arrives in the wrong sector of space and headed toward the wrong moon, discovers a facehugger is at large in the ship but it's too late as the facehugger surprises the space jockey, impregnates him and kills him forcing the crash on LV426.

If David's work doesn't get tied to LV426 then the sj would have to be a separate story. Maybe you could tie it to the outbreak on LV223 but there's too much time in-between events according to RS. I think it would make more sense to make the sj a separate race related to the Engineers, a sister race if you will, that developed the xeno bio technology on their own.

 

chli

Feb-08-2018 1:20 AM

It's obvious from the mural that the engineers knew about (perhaps worshipped) some kind of xenomorph-like creature. There are also facehuggers in the mural, attacking either sacrificial engineers or human victims. The decapitated engineer was about 2000 years old so they must have known about this creature for more than 2000 years. My guess is that in the hologram, they were running from facehuggers since some engineers were found with holes in their chests (like they exploded from inside). But, no dead, ancient creatures of any kind were found by the Prometheus crew . . .

V I N E T I C U M

Feb-08-2018 12:11 PM

the body of the engineer immersed in the space jockey suite of the derelict is fossilized, not because he is 1000 years old or more, but only because in my opinion his bio-mechanics suit died together with the engineer, fossilizing himself with the body. The Bio-mechanical suits seem to be fused with the body of the engineer, his death provokes this reaction. The greatness of the engineer seems like a mystery, I would like to imagine as discussed, that there is a similar but different race to engineers of an even more impressive stature to reveal the importance of that derelict.

BigDave

Feb-08-2018 2:38 PM

"The difference is that David’s monsters have not been born yet so there is only eggs."

There are Eggs on Planet 4 yes, but i would suspect the returning Engineers witness the results of those Eggs, or Eggs that occur on Origae-6,  i think we have to consider that IF without Davids Experiments on Planet 4, if David remained in Two pieces at the end of Prometheus then there are NO Eggs on the Derelict or Derelict on LV-426, then this means the route they are going means we have to see a Engineer Ship come into play.   The way this can happen, and those Eggs come into play could be.

1) David goes to LV-223 in the Covenant, Experiments to create Eggs and they are loaded on a Ship but maybe Engineers arrive to Stop him, and one of them gets infected.... ( I feel this is unlikely as i dont think David would risk taking the Covenant to LV-223 for risk of being intercepted.)

2) Engineers arrive on Planet 4, discover the Eggs and one group of them head to LV-223 with those Eggs, while maybe another heads towards Origae-6   (this kind of Plot if Shown, would allow us to get a idea of what happened on LV-426 without ever having to cover the next two movies being about the Xenomorph.)

3) The Engineers arrive at Origae-6 some serious $"%$^ hits the Fan, as a Result the Engineers take Davids Creations to LV-223.

4) As above but David comes out of this ok, and he Hijacks a Engineer Ship and heads to LV-223

5) Again similar but David and a Engineer come to some kind of Covenant and both head to LV-223

@Thesues

I think above kind of connects to what you put, i feel indeed the Engineer will return many years latter and i can only see them knowing David is off to Origae-6 from Walter...  As far as Worm-Hole goes, i think the Engineers have Great Technology but i think Time-Travel would not be too good as it would open up the Question of why not go back prior to the Outbreak or even back to when Mankind was Created and Undo it?

i do think a Paradox however could be the Answer that allows for Time Travel and its what i would do as far as DESTROY LV-223 but the Result Creates a Rift in Space and Time, sending the Derelict through a Temporary Paradox that sends it Thousands of years ago, but after the Outbreak on LV-223.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Feb-08-2018 2:49 PM

Regarding LV-223 and the Mural....

I had mentioned a lot of times and prior to AC, that the Mural does indicate the Engineers had encountered, experimented on/with or created something RELATED to the Xenomorph.  There was not enough clues to suggest this Organism or Experiments are FROM a Xenomorph but then its so ambiguous that we cant say they are NOT FROM a Xenomorph.

The options were...

1) They Xenomorph was already known to the Engineers (somehow) and LV-223 was a attempt to Re-Engineer the Xenomorph to create various experiments in a attempt to Perfect the Organism or Harness its Genetic Traits.

2) There was another related Ancestor Parasitic Organism encountered by the Engineers, and they began similar Experiments as above to create various Organisms based on the traits of this Parasite and the Deacon and Xenomorph were Results of this.

3) The Black Goo can be manipulated to create various Organic Life, and it was manipulated to become what it was on LV-223 or became Contaminated, this leads to various Experiments and the Deacon and eventually the Xenomorph.

There are a few varieties of above but the Basis for LV-223/Mural has to show us that these Experiments, the Deacon etc are either from a Xenomorph, from some related Parasitic Organism, or from the Black Goo so that the Black Goo is either the Origin of all these, or the Black Goo came from a Xenomorph or other related Parasitic Organism.

With Alien Covenant we are shown the route that maybe the Xenomorph is just a evolutionary experiment that comes from experiments done by David on the Black Goo and Black Goo infected Organisms.

I have my theory for LV-223 that connects to Planet 4 the different Engineers, but my theory would suggest that these are not Created as a Bio-Weapon... well not originally , they are just a accidental contamination/infection or one directed as punishment to the LV-223 Engineers.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Feb-08-2018 3:01 PM

To carry on with above... 

The LV-223 Outbreak is still a Topic for Debate, some would say they heard a Deacon Scream when David activated the Hollogram, the Bodies of the Engineers proof of this... i can agree to a point as far as it appears those Bodies are Props worked on maybe as Lindeloff was working on the re-writes, because in Spaights Alien Engineers, we see the Engineer bodies are implied to have suffered from a mixture of Chest Buster Wounds/Holes and then Wounds caused by Xenomorph related Organisms.

Prometheus changed the Plot, we saw no Xenomorphs, we could ponder a Deacon attack, but those Dead Engineer Bodies appeared HOLLOW apart from the Head in the Sterile Ampoule/Big Head Room. Dr Shaw references she has seen this before (Ebola Outbreak) and when looking at the Engineer clues from Sacrificial Scene too, and Exploding Engineers Head, my theory was always that these Engineers got infected with the Goo and it was in the Process of Breaking Down their DNA... They would have just disintegrated to nothing or just liquid etc...

i liken the Effects of the Sacrificial Goo as a Voilent Chemical Reaction, one that if contained within a Pressured Suit would have no place to go and build up pressure and then Explode from which ever part of the Pressured Container it could...  (Space Suits) much like when you put certain Mints into Cola and Shake the Bottle, a Violent Reaction occurs and then the Cola will try and escape from the point of least resistance.   If the Bottles had Holes in them and you patched the Holes up with Sticky/Scotch Tape then poured Cola into the Bottle the Cola would not really escape.. but as soon as a Minto is added the Violent Chemical Reaction would cause it to blow out of the holes that were tapped up.

I think we saw a similar effect to the Planet 4 Engineers, but for some reason there remains just ended up as Burnt/Mummified corpses.

The Environment in the Big Head Room, must have prevented the Spread/Effect of the Black Goo, hence why the Engineers were running to this Room. Hence why the Head was in a Preserved State.

The Prometheus Crew, maybe by removing their Helmets infected this Environment and caused the Urns to leak.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Ati

Mar-23-2018 10:25 AM

'To tie David's work to Alien might require the space jockey to visit the Engineer's world after David had left with the Covenant, collect the data, maybe re-vive Walter to get info, re-create the eggs, leave the planet for an LV moon, hits a wormhole and travels back in time 1800 years but arrives in the wrong sector of space and headed toward the wrong moon, discovers a facehugger is at large in the ship but it's too late as the facehugger surprises the space jockey, impregnates him and kills him forcing the crash on LV426.' - by Theseus

Last year I had a similar idea with David jumping back in time but your idea with the Space Jockey is a much better one.

Ati

Mar-23-2018 10:33 AM

'If David's work doesn't get tied to LV426 then the sj would have to be a separate story. Maybe you could tie it to the outbreak on LV223 but there's too much time in-between events according to RS. I think it would make more sense to make the sj a separate race related to the Engineers, a sister race if you will, that developed the xeno bio technology on their own.' - by Theseus

As for the SJ, I think every fan would like to see a new race in the AC sequel, 'a separate race' with less human facial appearance.

Ati

Mar-23-2018 10:42 AM

'we see the Engineer bodies are implied to have suffered from a mixture of Chest Buster Wounds/Holes and then Wounds caused by Xenomorph related Organisms.' - by BigDave

I think the goo urn bombing scene in Alien Covenant shows and explains what happened to the LV-223 Engineers. They suffered from the exiting parasites looking very similar to the black goo.

Ati

Mar-23-2018 11:15 AM

From the text of the original article:

'In Alien: Covenant, its airborne form can create Neomorphs directly inside a living host, completely bypassing any egg or facehugger stage.'

That is not true!

The killer spore pod (mutated from fungus) itself is the egg stage, and the insect-like mots attacking a host/flying in the air equal to the facehugger stage in this case.

The process in Alien Covenant:

Mutagenic pathogen (black goo/virus) --> host (fungus) --> hybridized creature (insect-like motes in pods) --> host again (Ledward) --> xenomorph-like hybridized creature (the Neomorph)

BigDave

Mar-24-2018 5:23 AM

I certainly hope we will get either a Separate Race or a Related but Larger Humanoid Race to be the Space Jockey, even if we see 10ft beings as at the moment the 7.5ft Engineers certainly are a inconstancy with the Space Jockey Size... but alas this could be kept as just a Oversight.

The Whole Time Travel Aspect i think should be avoided, if the Engineers or other Race above them can Traverse Time, then why not Undo what they have done... or go to the Future see whats going down and then go back in the past to UNDO anything they are not pleased or feel threatened with.

HOWEVER... i have proposed before a Time Travel Element, that would fit...

LV-223 is a big in-continuity in the Franchise.. unless we see RS remove Aliens on-wards from Canon..   LV-223 is more Reward for the Company than the Trivial Pursuit of the Xenomorph on LV-426.  IDEALLY we need LV-223 to be eradicated from existance either prior to Alien in 2122 or certainly shortly after..

The Engineers or their creators, would certainly after the events of Alien Covenant, have great concerns about LV-223, you would see their options would be to Destroy Mankind...  then maybe consider Destroying LV-223.

I think if a Engineer or Related Ship went to LV-223, with the Eggs or they Engineered them on LV-223 after the events of Alien Covenant.. these Engineers etc then Destroy LV-223 as they are leaving or LV-223 is destroyed some other way.

And DESTROYED in such a Manner that the Event/Force Tears a Hole in Time and Space that drags the Derelict into it, so that it disappears from near LV-223 in the year say 2115-2120 and is tossed through the TEMPOARY Tear in Space and Time and appears in the same location but Thousands of Years prior..

This ^^^ for me would be the best case scenario to Kill TWO Birds with ONE Stone.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Mar-24-2018 5:30 AM

Certainly think similar to what happened to those Engineers could have happened on LV-223 too, but i dont quite see such a large scale Bombardment kind of outbreak...   I think however Black Goo had infected those Engineers some how... and the results would certainly be the Black Goo erupting out of the Engineers...

But the LV-223 Engineers Corpses appear Hollow, apart from the Head and so that Ampoule Room when preserved (prior to Human contaminating the Atmosphere) must put a halt to the Black Goo infection.   The Engineers who never made it, appear to having nothing left of them and so broken down like the Sacrificial Engineer.

Yet Planet 4 Engineers all ended up (most of them) as them Mummified Corpses... but i put TWO explanations for this on another thread today.

The Black Goo is a complex thing, when it was at its basis Simple, if they stuck with Prometheus and Alien Engineers...

The likely explantion for the Spores, i feel is the crashed Juggernaught had leaked some Cargo of Urns into the Water Supply that we see falling inside the Ship and under it, it appears the Ship has Crashed into the Mountain that may have a Stream running down it, hence Water in the Entrance and Water coming down inside too.

Near the Water in time we could get Mold/Spores that are Organic and the Black Goo would surely Evolve them into something that is related to the Xeno-Virus Traits turning those Spores into a Method to pass on a related Infection....   Essentially yes making the Spores like Eggs and the Motes like the Face Hugger.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Mar-24-2018 5:44 AM

Not sure if i am repeating myself here.... Too lazy to read if i have posted this here.. ;)

Alien was a Enigma, the Cargo not explored or explained, until RS latter had said this was a Egg Cargo the Space Jockey was carrying as a Weapon of War.

At the point of Alien we simply had the EGG Cargo... it was not explained how it got there....   ALIENS came along with the Queen and we was like.. ok so a Queen laid the Eggs right?

However during Alien production HR Giger had envisioned that the Egg Chamber Actually Produced the Eggs, via Pregnant Bio-Mechanical Belly like Apparatus.

At the time of after Aliens we simply had the Cargo of Eggs with no real explanation, but it was likely one of these.

1) The Ship Produces the Eggs and somehow they end up in Rows like that.

2) Some place else Produces the Eggs or they are Engineered some how and they are transported to the Cargo Hold.

3) A Queen or similar Lays them and they are Transported to the Cargo Hold.

4) A Queen or similar Lays them after it chest bursts from the Space Jockey.

Along came Prometheus and after RS had mentioned that something in the Cargo Hold had Evolved, and it got to the Space Jockey... this could imply the Cargo had Evolved, as in maybe those Urns Evolved into Eggs or indeed that something in those Urns had Evolved and then Created/Laid the Eggs.

At this point RS confirmed the Space Jockey Event happened a within a few hundred years of the LV-223 Outbreak, so we are talking Few Hundred Years Prior or After.... Prometheus had clues to suggest likely after.

But Alien Covenant came along and throws that Curve-ball that if this David creator is the path they are taking then there was NO Derelict on LV-426 (at least NO Eggs) by the time of the year 2105, and with the Covenant not due to reach Origae-6 until the year 2112 we can maybe Assume that 10 years prior to ALIEN there was no Derelict on LV-426

Thus what ever transpires in the planned sequel to Alien Covenant, would leave us with some events in a 10 year period to get Davids Creations, Evolved a bit more and on a Engineer Ship within under 10 years.  

So the 2112-2122 Ball Park is when the Space Jockey event happens... if they are going the David creates the First Xenomorph route.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Mar-24-2018 5:52 AM

I really need to get to work on my TWO sequels to Alien Covenant... that would actually explain the Space Jockey event, and the Xenomorph, and how it becomes Bio-Mechanical, and how David makes a Deal with the Engineer Hierarchy, only for them to Sacrifice his new found Companion/Love Interest to get the Classic Xenomorph.

David then is angry on LV-223 at the double-cross and he sabotages a Engineer Ship Cargo...  Seeing the Error of his ways he also Destroys LV-223 but a Engineer ship manages to escape only to be tossed through a Tear in Space and Time to take it thousands of years back in time... and this causes a Egg to loose a Face Hugger... or i may figure another way the Space Jockey gets infected but still sticks with the above kind of Plot.

My TWO Projects are...

Alien: Ascension (Alien Covenant Sequel)

Alien: Absolution (the Final Part of the Prequel Saga)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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