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The Cave

The Cave

3 Upvotes57 RepliesUpvoteAdd A Reply
Forum Topic

chli

Jan-31-2018 3:10 AM

This has of course been discussed before, but since we have nothing better to do while waiting for a sequel to the prequels :), we might as well discuss it some more, and what might be a possible way of connecting Alien: Awakening and the original Alien movie?

Kane clearly says that it’s a cave he enters while being lowered down the long hole to investigate what’s down there. It’s a huge cave which seems to be partly alien made with rows after rows of eggs and hatching devices (such as the mist covering the eggs). This cannot be a part of the juggernaut/derelict since it’s too big - “it’s huge” as Parker would have said. :)

This leads me to my thesis: LV-426 is where the eggs have been created. None of the juggernauts we have encountered in the movies has had eggs in the cargo hold. What they have stored there are urns filled with the mutagen/pathogen (the black goo).

So, what was the space jockey and the derelict doing on LV-426? Well, one answer might be that he brought the mutagen there which was needed in order to create the eggs (more eggs). It might even be possible that the opening (which Kane enters) is a hatch which can be opened and positioned just above the hole leading down into the cave? Through here they could lower down the mutagen so they can produce more eggs? But, as the space jockey opens the hatch, a face hugger, which has left one of the eggs down in the hatchery, crawls out and launches itself onto the face of the space jockey. When he awakens, the chestburster is on its way out and he has just enough time to set the warning signal?

The time and creation issues surrounding the eggs have become a huge problem since we have two paths to choose from: either they are ancient (David merely re-creates/evolves them) or David creates them?

But, in this scenario, the mutagen is created on LV-223 and the eggs on LV-426. The mutagen must be fetched from LV-223 and transported (in the cargo hold) to LV-426 where it is unloaded.

The outbreak on LV-223, about 2000 years prior to Prometheus, might have nothing to do with the space jockey and the derelict and the eggs on LV-426, it’s just an accident with the mutagen (which Captain Janek explains).

But, in order to make this work, the alien-made cave with the hatchery and the eggs on LV-426 need to be ancient and there would, most likely, be an experimental facility connected to it where abducted human females or sacrificed engineer women were used in order to produce the eggs?

57 Responses to The Cave

chli

Feb-02-2018 1:16 AM

Batchpool

Very interesting pictures and ideas! The egg chamber drawings suggest that they originally intended to go by Spaiths’ script which I think would have been a better movie (although Prometheus wasn’t bad)?

The egg-making device also suggests that the intention from the beginning was that the eggs were produced there - in the (portable?) silo - and that it was not a part of the derelict? As Ati points out, Scott still has an option (if ever there will be another movie connecting to Alien) when it comes to who created the eggs that the crew of the Nostromo encounters on LV-426?

Critters5

Feb-02-2018 7:10 AM

Bigdave, I wish. Those designs would be great too. Too bad I don't think we will ever see that. It would be incredible to have a Space Jockey race that does the design justice instead of the Engineer copout design. Then maybe would could also get a Ultra-morph. Maybe in the future a new director could go back and interject that as a side story movie. 

Thoughts_Dreams

Feb-02-2018 12:10 PM

I have never figured out if the cave was a part of the planet or a part of the ship. The cave is really big so I am not sure how it could have been a part of the ship.

Kane said that it was a cave of some sort. To me it was like it could be that but it could also have been something else. He probably compared it to what he had seen on earth so that is the kind of thing that he could compare it to. Until someone that worked on the movie says something about it I guess that we will never know but I do not think that it matters.

I found the scene but I do not want to show it since Fox or who ever might take it down.

To me it is like they never thought about the issue of scale. Maybe it was like people just had to accept that it was a part of the ship but it was too vague but it leaves it up to the individual to decide. Perhaps this could be compared to the issue of the size of the Engineers in AC compared to the SJ and the one in Prometheus.

Actually it is interesting that we are still discussing this about 40 years after the movie was released. This could tell us something about its impact.

Yeah it would be better if David did his own version, a robot as a maker of the Xeno is just bad.

BigDave

Feb-02-2018 4:08 PM

Indeed Thoughts_Dreams a lot has to do with how the Cargo/Organism, and the Derelict Ship and Pilot/Pilots have evolved from Star Beast to Alien and then what Prometheus revealed.

After Alien Ridley Scott had informed us that indeed the Derelict was carrying a Egg Cargo, something RS had stuck by right until Prometheus, before he offered a slight ambiguous change where he implied "something in the Cargo Hold Evolved and Got Out"

So we had to suspend belief, and just accept the Cargo Hold was part of the Ship, HOWEVER with the route they have taken now, it really leaves it open to how they explore the Derelict Eventually, it appears everything and clue set down prior does not apply no longer.

Because they can now adjust the outcome how they see fit... so indeed they could reveal the Egg Chamber was a Egg Silo/Cave, we shall have to wait and see.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Feb-02-2018 5:51 PM

@Critters5

I think they still look odd, i prefer the idea that we got as far as the Space Jockey Suits, the Space Jockey does look slightly more Skeletal but this is mainly the Head/Helmet and the Pipe/Trunk is definitely not Organic at all.

I think introducing another Race as the Space Jockey could Freshen things up, have a different color to the Engineers SJ suits, make the Space Jockey Taller, and under the Helmet something less Human. 

Forgive my Editing Skills LOL, i took a different color Engineer Space Jockey Suit, i made the Torso Wider in Proportion to Arms and Legs, and made Arms and Legs longer a bit compared to Original Proportions, i think crudely stuck on a different Humanoid Head, but we could be more adventurous than this head, but it had a Elongated look.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Feb-04-2018 10:14 AM

I have used various other images to try and gauge the size of the Egg Chamber components which has lead me to a Width of the 3 Sections within each part thats broken up to be Between 50-60 Feet Wide, and looking at other images i have estimated the Height to be 80-100 Feet (Internal Height) These are rough Guess work though.

But i would safely assume the Height from Pilot Chair Floor to Bottom of the Derelict has to be 100-125 Feet, the other dimensions are hard to Gauge but the distance Wall to Wall has to be 150-200ft?  And from what we can see the distance from where Kane Lands to as far as the Eye can see has to be at least 300ft but could be up to 450ft? which means the Cameras Total Shot is a good 400-500Ft  and we have to assume the Total Length of the Cargo Hold has to be at least 2-3X this.

The Derelict is not 1000-1500 Feet Long at Widest Point, and depends on the Layout of the Egg Chamber, because if this is  Circular kind of Chamber then the Derelict would have to be 1500-2000ft to incorporate it and then, the Wall to Wall Width would also be way to deep for the Derelict.   Then we have the Height, the Cargo Hold is at least as tall as the Derelict, and looking at the Space Bellow the Pilot Chair its about 100ft too short at least.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Feb-05-2018 1:12 AM

Good job, BigDave. I think that we can all agree on the "cave" being too big to fit in a juggernaut? I would love a flashback scene (if ever there will be another movie) where we are transported back in time to the outbreak on LV-223, and have a glimpse of what happened in the other facilities there . . .

Critters5

Feb-05-2018 7:52 AM

Yea that would be cool. 

Ingeniero

Feb-05-2018 9:00 AM

Excellent reference Batchpool with "When in Rome." regarding the lavender.

Yes, David paid a little too much attention to his hair and we would suspect that he would not be covered in filth after so much pampering on the way to LV-223. Building on that, David may have used the lavender-like balm himself as to soften the ammonia smell but certainly to prep anyone he could convince to follow him to the egg room on Planet 4.

Also, thank you the 2011 concept art. Amazing artwork and I agree with Ati regarding the relationship to Prometheus' original destination being LV-426.

Thank you for concentrating on the potential underground system on LV-426 chli. I'm leaning toward a cave system setup on LV-426. Especially after the concept work for Prometheus had a similar construction before the switch to a LV-223 and the limitations steering Alien's filming described earlier. We have seen underground systems on both LV-223 and Planet 4. So, if Ripley is incorrect and the ship wasn't derelict then LV-426 is another installation.

Thank you BigDave for tackling this, below.

"I will first tackle the Origins of the Cargo Hold, when working on the earlier drafts to Alien, there was supposed to be a separate Pyramid and Derelict Ship and the Cargo of Eggs was inside the Pyramid, during Production HR Giger had came in to design the Derelict and Pyramid which HR Giger now replaced with a Giant Egg Silo.  Due to budget restraints they had to combine the work done on the Egg Silo and make it appear as if it was part of the Derelict Ships Cargo."

Great stuff. The pilot's chair shown in the LV-223 juggernaut escapes from a recess and rises in an erect position (opposed to folded/compressed start position) from below the orrery. 

This recess below certainly reconciles with the dimensions cited above for the derelict ship on LV-426 and tends toward an external system outside the ship.

Alien Novelization

In the Alien novelization, page 79, Kane's decent is described in detail "Holding himself motionless, he switched on his light-bar, pointed it down. It showed him ten meters of dull-colored metal before dissolving into nothingness."

"Out of breath again he paused in his descent to run a check of his suit instrumentation. 'Interesting,' he said into his pickup. 'I'm below ground level.'"

Alien novelization, page 80.

 

BigDave

Feb-05-2018 9:43 AM

I think a lot of Novels are based of earlier ideas, that get changed during the Final Production and so i think ADF may not be making stuff up, well adding stuff thats not there, he does with some but with some parts you have to consider it was based on what Actual Plans had been at the time he was given the Material to base his Novelizations off.

Hence the Cave References by Kane, and likewise the David suggesting he found the Egg as it was.

It is kind of hard to work out the sizes of the Cave as we get Multiple Reference Points where Scale is off, the Decent to the Egg Chamber shot is a Matt Painting and so its Scale is off compared to actual interactions on the Built Set....    Even the Built Set we get different Scales due to the use of Child 4ft Actors as they first enter the Pilot Chamber.

So its hard to get a conclusive size...  I will next do what is a likely accurate one though regarding the Derelict where i will simply scale the Derelict to match the size of Kane in descending the Egg Chamber, with the Crew entering the Vaginal Openings to Gage the correct scale.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Ingeniero

Feb-05-2018 9:55 AM

The novelization reference is far from confirmation BigDave. I like to reference the novelization because it shows the thinking behind the scenes (sometimes).

BigDave

Feb-05-2018 10:47 AM

Having used a few images from Alien, and in particular this one.

Which shows the Opening External Size is about 3.5X Height of the Space Suited Humans, and so a 20ft Estimate is Approximately the External (Vulva) size but it could be between 20-22ft mark, but i can now use this to roughly scale the descending Kane in the Egg Chamber Image to the Openings on the Derelict Prop where i will allow for Kane Height to be between 3-3.5X Less.

And we end up with this image below as a Approximate Guess, which shows the Egg Chamber Height is actually near enough the Entire Derelict Height, which adds up with the Space Jockey Pilot Room Set which only covers about Half the Height of the Pilot Chamber.  Up to the Blue Line as they used the same Set.

When looking at the image above, and noticing how the Egg Chamber Curves around, i cant help but think of a Internal Layout as Bellow.

IF the Cargo Hold is part of the Ship, i feel its likely set out like this, where maybe the BLUE Cargo Hold would Curve more to fit the U Shape of the Derelict, i think this could show that IF the Derelict was TWICE the size or HEIGHT then the Egg Chamber would FIT.... even if it was 50% Larger (Derelict) i think it would FIT, but looking at how they Entered the Derelict and the Pilot Chamber we can assume the Cargo Hold would start about Level with the Vaginal Openings, or at very Most the 3 Markings that are above them and thus would not FIT how it does in the MOVIE.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Critters5

Feb-05-2018 11:31 AM

I agree. I think we just need to suspend belief unless they end up saying its a silo to avoid David needing to make thousands of eggs from 2 huggers. 

BigDave

Feb-05-2018 3:47 PM

I think it depends on where they are going with it Critters5, RS had said the next one would be LESS Xenomorph and more AI and with the Engineers Returning, would give us the PLOT Device that would bring the Derelict into play. 

We dont know how TWO Face Huggers can lead to Thousands, but what we have seen in the Franchise is the Sacrificial Goo appeared to be a TOOL that allows for the Obtaining of a Organisms DNA to be used as a Seeding Device to Spread its DNA and Create  Hybrid.     Sacrificial Goo + Wolf and resulting Mutagen applied to a Human = a Werewolf so to speak.

We know the Engineers on LV-223 had experimented on various Organisms related to the Xenomorph in order to obtain the DEACON in the Mural.  LV-223 is close to LV-426 and so at some point a ENGINEER SHIP with DAVIDS EGGS/XENOMORPH has to end up in the LV-223/426 System?

The Big Question is WHY?

If the Engineers discover Davids Xenomorph, even if its a Face Hugger, or Xenomorph and they see this as Potential Perfection and they wish to Perfect it more and Multiply it... Then it would make Logical Sense for these Engineers to take Davids Xenomorph to LV-223 for Experiments.

A way to fix the size could be simple, introduce the Derelict with a slight different design.

Increase the Distance of the Arm Sections between the Central Part of the Ship and just before where they Curve around, as shown in the RED HORIZONTAL ARROWS,  increase the Height of the ship a little but increase the height of the Central Part a bit more as shown with the RED VERTICAL ARROWS then add a Larger Area under the ship, Dome Shaped like the Top of the Central Part but a little different as shown by the GREEN SECTION.

These Mild Changes, and then reveal the Space Jockey Pilot Platform is at the same LEVEL as the YELLOW LINE and all of these i think will make the Cargo Hold more Believable.

PS forgive my Poor Art/Graphic Ability ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Feb-07-2018 12:12 AM

Well, I think we can agree on the possibility of a cave under the derelict? David might travel to Origae-6 which could, in fact, be LV-426? Or he could go to LV-223 and get some more pathogen? He could then get a juggernaut as well. He has 2000 colonists to experiment on. Daniels might give him a queen and the problem with all the eggs would be solved. Even eggmorphing would work (2000 eggs)?

BigDave

Feb-07-2018 2:39 PM

I think maybe it depends what way we look at this, do we look at WHAT logically David would do? Or what RS has hinted at, i think a lot depends on Davids Agenda and Ridley Scott has made some comments to kind of push us in a certain direction.

Why would David need to go to Oriage-6 if his Prime Goal is to create more Eggs?  Would he not just go and take those Eggs from the Cave on Planet 4 and take them to the Ship?  Would he not just take Colonist down few at a time especially Females and Conduct the Same Experiments that obtained him those Eggs?

And why not go back down and take some Black Goo with him?

I think we need to look  beyond what is the most Logical Route for David, and ask WHY go to LV-223, what is there for David?  Black Goo for certain, and if David just wanted to KILL Mankind then surely going to LV-223 and Picking up another Juggernaught would be ideal..

But we have to look at it this way and ask WHY was David marooned on Planet 4? we see no more Engineer Ships (apart from deleted Scene) and so if Davids only TICKET off this place is the Covenant, then surely taking the Covenant to LV-223 so David can get down and pick up a Engineer Ship then head to Earth would be a risk, because of the chances of being intercepted, the Covenant hardly seems like a Stealthy, Maneuverable Ship that can evade capture.

HOWEVER... if David created the Xenomorph then his Creations have to end up on a Engineer Ship that then happens to end up in the LV-223/LV-426 System.... so a Engineer Ship has to come into play, and i feel having Origae-6 be a Engineer World that has a Ship would be a bit too much of a Spoon Fed Coincidence, its why RS comments about the returning Engineers who find what happened to Planet 4 seems the Plot Device to get a Engineer Ship to were David and his Creations are.

Then they have to end up in the Zeta 2 System, which to me can only mean one of these.

*David overcomes the Engineers and takes one of their Ships that arrive at Origae-6 to LV-223 in a attempt to Evolve Davids Creation, or obtain Black Goo to allow David to Spread his creations DNA.

*The Engineers take a interest in Davids Creation and they take it to LV-223 for the same purpose as above.

*David and the  Engineers make a deal to work on the Bio-Weapon together and head off to LV-223 for the reasons above.

I Do-Not think LV-426 will be revealed as Origae-6 i think LV-426 will be revealed to indeed be about 40LY from Earth  (stick with what has already been shown) and i feel Origae-6 will be like 200-300 LY from Earth. Maybe more?

I think the potential is still there for LV-426 to be a place were the Egg Silos are located, but i think a problem with this is why do they have TWO outposts near each other.  The only Logical Explanation would have to be that LV-223 is either.

*Where Experiments to Create Eggs take place and the Results are taken to LV-426 for Storage.

OR

*The Eggs are stored on LV-426 and taken to LV-223 for Experiments on.

There are clues that could support the Cave being Separate, the Size of it, the description by Kane, and how it looks like Limestone Caves as Kanes Enters... but then this could well be Melted Flooring from the Acid Burn Hole (which means a lot of Acid).   A lot of Oversights has lead to such inconsistencies that give us chance to Ponder other Explanations, in the face of the clues not adding up to the Explanation we would assume.

The flip side is i have discovered other clues that contradict a Cave, looking at the Curve to the Egg Cargo Hold i feel it fits Perfectly with the Layout of the Derelict as i posted in a image prior, with ONE exception...  SIZE

To resolve this all they have to do is show the Derelict being slightly different in shape to the Juggernaught and even Derelict in Alien, if they can increase the size of the Derelict by 25%, add a extended portion attached to the bottom of the Derelict thats at least 25% the height of the Derelict and then show the Egg Cargo Hold as being 25% smaller than in ALIEN then these Visual Clues would surely allow us to accept the Cargo Hold is part of the Derelict.

The same as if they introduce another Race or Larger 10ft Engineers, as the Space Jockey, while a 10ft Race wont be the same as the 13-15ft Space Jockey, its much closer to the size so we can accept it.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Feb-07-2018 2:55 PM

I will add that going the route that the Egg Chamber is part of the ship makes things much easier as far as LV-426, regardless if they STICK with David being the Creator or Change it back again, even if they reveal that INDEED its a ANCIENT EVENT!

The Separate Egg Silo idea, would be more suited to a Ancient Event because then it would fit more if the LV-426 Silo was where the Engineers Stored their Experiments, then it could have it that a Engineer Ship sets down to the Cargo Hold to Stock up on some Urns, or what ever and discover something has Evolved in the Egg Chamber,  the Space Jockey could Curiously take a closer look and then get infected, and then wake up, rush to his Pilot Chair, attempt to take off but then realize something is not right and then HALT his attempted Escape and Set of a Warning Beacon.

This could also be explored as far as a more recent event, but then we have to ask HOW does the Eggs get to that Egg Silo if they was not there prior to Alien Covenant, why would a Engineer take Davids Eggs to a Separate Egg Silo on LV-426, rather than LV-223?

It does not mean this could not be the case, they could simply have discovered Davids Creations and Shipped them on the Derelict to take to LV-426 and then they would have had to SAFELY ship them to the Egg Silo in Thousands before just by CHANCE one of the Eggs infects the Space Jockey, so for this Scenario to work it would likely FIT some kind of Sabotage by another Engineer or David, especially if David and the Engineers work together and then David double crosses the Space Jockey.

I think the Big Question if we go for LV-426 having a Egg Silo is why hold a Egg Silo on LV-426 and not just some other part of LV-223 unless they knew the risk a outbreak of what ever is on LV-426 (successful experiments) could over-run the World, more than the Black Goo and to keep them both separate as a layer of Quarantine Protocol/Safe Guards.   The other option being this place was for housing Eggs that would be experimented on LV-223 which then would imply maybe the Xenomorph is Ancient...   But this does not have to be the case as the Fresco in Prometheus showed us a Egg, but then if we assume this was held by the Fresco Creature, what ALIEN shows us is the EGG HOLD in ALIEN had XENOMORPHS.

So they could still explore a different route for sure, the only thing for certain is the Egg Silo is at least 4X too Large to fit under the Derelict given the configuration that ALIEN seems to show us. But this could well have to be put down to a OVERSIGHT.

Hopefully not though...

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Feb-07-2018 3:07 PM

Daniels as a QUEEN is a interesting thing, i have explored this a view times on here, where there really is 3 routes.

1) Face Hugger + Daniels = Xenomorph Queen or Egg Layer..  This would be too close to Camerons idea and i think RS would not go this route.

2) Infect Daniels with Face Hugger DNA to change her into a Hybrid, that then Lays/Produces Eggs that can be harvested and grown into Xenomorph Eggs.

3) Use Daniels Reproductive Organs as far as Harvesting her Egg Cells, to Experiment/Evolve into Xenomorph Eggs.

OPTIONS 2/3 i think David would have to find some way to extract Face Hugger DNA and infuse it with Human DNA/Genetics, how would David do this?   The Black Goo is the most obvious Plot Device for this.

Looking at how the Black Goo worked in Prometheus, If its ONE Substance or David can obtain the Sacrificial Variant, or even Mixing the Black Goo with a Face Hugger as it is...  the purpose being to expose the Face Hugger DNA so that it is broken down to form a Hybrid Substance that now Carries the DNA of Davids Face Huggers.  This then applied to Daniels, or to her Harvested Egg Cells would indeed maybe lead us to David being able to Create Multiple Eggs.

If David had the Sacrificial Goo or could allow the Black Goo to perform in a similar Fashion, then exposing it to a Face Hugger Embryo, that then breaks down the Face Hugger DNA and then this is stored in some container, to then be used to infect Daniels or her Egg Cells would surely lead to Xenomorph Eggs...

THESE ^^^ have to be the Logical Way to go, if Daniels is implied as some Queen, the other route is a Queen Chest Buster which is very James Cameron, or have the Xenomorphs Egg Morph its Hosts. Which means Daniels is not a QUEEN, unless a Female Born Chest Buster is able to Egg Morph... or revealed to, because if they can all do it, then the Egg Morph route would mean that Daniels does not have to be a Queen but in effect Tennessee or anyone else could be.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Feb-08-2018 2:54 AM

Many interesting scenarios, BigDave. Another possibility is that the engineers found the cave with the eggs a long time ago. They didn't create the eggs, they found them? Some of them were probably infected and they learned about the xeno's life cycle. Later on they might have found a way to harvest eggs safely and bring them to LV-223 to have sacrifical engineers or perhaps abducted humans exposed to them? This would explain the mural? After the outbreak one engineer travels to LV-426 to destroy the eggs (since they are dangerous). But he is already infected himself but manages to set the warning beacon?

BigDave

Feb-08-2018 3:35 PM

Well sorry chli as Obi Wan Kenobi said  "Thats not a Moon, its a Space Station"

LOL

But indeed i think thats a good point, but this is not really a CAVE its a kind of Facility thats inside of a Cave, but i get what you mean, i think the notion its a Facility does indicate this is NO Cave System where these Eggs have Naturally just grown...   There is Technology there.

Maybe we could go back to the route that was shown in Dan O'Bannons Star Beast, where the Eggs/Spores were in some kind of Temple/Pyramid and the Derelict is a Ship belonging to another Race who Stumbled upon these Eggs.

But with ALIEN we can see the Egg Silo and Derelict share the same kind of AESTHETIC so they have to be connected, this does not rule out that the Derelict/Space Jockey are some other Race, and the Engineers discovered the Derelict and used LV-223 to Re-Engineer there Technology.

I think that would be one interesting route to explore.

Which could loosely connect to what Star Beast was showing...  I also find HR Gigers Work on Alien very interesting, his Face Hugger Concepts showed Bald Humanoids, getting Face Hugged and their Space Suits did not look like Earth made ones.. certainly not Aesthetically like in ALIEN or even Prometheus.   The suits did look like the Engineers Suits in Prometheus however...

Then we have the Mural which shows Helmeted beings with the same suits, that now look a bit like the Space Jockey, and who are Sacrificing one of their own to the Face Hugger, the Mural seems to show the Egg coming from a Worm, and this is produced by the Derelict which is shown to actually Aesthetically look like a Xenomorph... as if to suggest they share a Genetic Connection.

HR Gigers Mural was supposed to be placed above sections of the Egg Silo, above what he described as Pregnant Bio-Mechanical Bellies that Produce the Eggs.

THIS ^^^ is very interesting and i thought would be something to explore and my work on Prometheus 2/3 was to explore this... well its one of the 2/3 ways i was going to explore the connections.  So the one was to mix Gigers ideas with the Annunaki like Tale, showing the Engineers are created to Host the Xenomorphs, these Engineers Rebelled, and so Mankind was created in their place..   A War between the Engineers and who ever created the Engineers broke out, the Engineers then destroyed their creators, and then decided to interfere with Mankind by not Destroy us.  But to then subjugate us.

But we Rebelled, so these Engineers who Reverse Engineered their Hierarchy/Creators Technology (well a faction of them) decided to use and experiment on the Xenomorph DNA to use on Mankind.

My other idea was similar but a bit different, but these both conflicted some parts of what i thought Prometheus was showing so i had a different theory and i struggled to MERGE both without coming up with a idea i thought was PERFECT and not Contradicting... which i could not so i abandoned the idea.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Feb-08-2018 3:58 PM

I will go back at you OT and tackle each part, with what i feel clues point to... not my opinions but just what evidence or lack of shows.

"Kane clearly says that it’s a cave"

This first part of you Topic, we covered a bit here, but indeed it appears the Cargo Hold just cant fit inside of the Derelict, and would have to be buried at least 60ft under the ground the Derelict crashed on.  If we are investigating this and looking at all clues ALONE.. then its hard to Fathom this being part of the Ship unless another Section is attached to the bottom of the Derelict.  Otherwise the idea of a Buried Egg Silo/Storage Facility seems more logical.

"This leads me to my thesis: LV-426 is where the eggs have been created."

Ignoring what RS claimed prior and after the U-Turn with AC, indeed we cant rule out that the Egg Silo is either where the Eggs are taken to LV-223 for experiments, or are taken from LV-223 to LV-426. Its unlikely, but when considering that the Egg Caro Hold is too large for the Derelict and if we consider could it be a separate Egg Facility then this is something we cant rule out either.

"as the space jockey opens the hatch, a face hugger"

Could work, its more likely than a Face Hugger was loose and used Acid to Burn though the Hull and get to the Space Jockey, if the Cargo Hold was on the Derelict this would still sound odd, its likely the Space Jockey went to investigate something, a Quarantine Failure or just Safety Checks... be it a Part of the Ship or a Underground Storage Facility... and then he gets infected.  So yeah i can agree with this point.

"The time and creation issues surrounding the eggs have become a huge problem"

There are some in-continuities and so it still could be explained as David just Re-Creates the Eggs.

"But, in this scenario, the mutagen is created on LV-223 and the eggs on LV-426."

IF  we consider the explanation for the size of the Egg Chamber meaning it has to be  a Underground Facility then indeed this is possible, certainly allows for this or Vice Versa (Eggs Created on LV-223, Transported to LV-426).

"The outbreak on LV-223, about 2000 years prior to Prometheus, might have nothing to do with the space jockey"

IF we consider the last few points as possible then it also allows this point to be possible.

"an experimental facility connected to it where abducted human females"

Again IF we consider David merely Re-Created the Xenomorph, and it was created prior, then did it naturally originate as it did, was it experimented on to get to the Xenomorph... or did the ENGINEERS create the Xenomorph via similar methods that David did?

Certainly Interesting.... and why i feel these concept arts are very interesting.

f

 

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Feb-08-2018 5:58 PM

Good analyses, as usual, BigDave. What I meant with the idea that the engineers just found the cave and the eggs on LV-426 a long time ago, was that the xenomorph was/is an already existing alien species, even older than the engineers? The xenomorph lay the eggs there? The engineers stumbled upon them ages ago, and learning what they were (the hard way) took them to LV-223 to do just like mural say they did - the usual facehugger and human sacrifice.

One interesting thing with the mural is that the creature being sacrificed in a crucifix manner (which many has interpreted as a xenomorph creature/deacon) seems to be a human (if you look closely). The human being sacrificed wears a ritual costume in the shape of the xeno-like creature which they will give birth to. The garment the sacrificed human wears is open in the chest/stomach looking very much like Shaw did (after what David had done to her) but can just resemble the result of the chestburster? So, in this scenario, the engineers didn’t create either the xeno or the eggs but used them on poor subjects. What they did create, however, was the pathogen - probably using xeno DNA? The eggs were too dangerous and awkward to transport so they created the black goo which could be contained safely in urns?

There are, of course, many problems with this theory - one is that it’s RS who decides the route (David as creator). :)

BigDave

Feb-08-2018 6:16 PM

I get you, its kind of what i mentioned to a degree, so indeed Ancient Xenomorph  like in Star Beast, its something we cant rule out.  Its how to address how the Egg Silo looks like a Facility, unless its a Ancient one where the Engineers had something else, that had been replaced by Eggs.

Interesting take on the Sacrificial Mural being a Human

When looking at Prometheus prior to when it came out and just after, it certainly was one thing to consider the Urns as just a Natural Evolutionary way to Re-Weaponize the Xenomorph for something more Easier to Contain.

I think the route RS has taken has blown a lot of theories on here out of the water a bit lol

I had a pretty good idea to explain nearly everything in Prometheus that makes sense to me, but now some of it wont add up to the route RS has taken us.   But then i guess they still add up a bit.

My theory goes against this all being a Bio-Weapon though, its a case of a Creation Seeding Tool thats Evolved, that then is either contaminated or they came across/punished with a Ancient Organism they they decided to Experiment with.   I am not so drawn to the Xenomorph being a Ancient Bio-Weapon or the Black Goo and Juggernaughts and LV-223 being created for the purpose of just Bio-Weapons as a lot of clues goes against this.

Then again my other theory/idea is a bit different where i ponder some other Race that was using the Engineers to Procreate the Xenomorph, replaced by Humans after they Rebelled.. But then it was just figuring out what Race would want to Procreate the Xenomorph for what purpose.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Feb-08-2018 6:58 PM

Well, to me it doesn’t look like a silo - more like a cave which has been modified in some ways. The xeno was biomechanical and parts of the cave look the same, but you get the feeling of a flowing cave and that the biomechanical aspects are put on top of rock, here and there vagina-like holes drilled leading somewhere? There is also light at the far end, suggesting an opening?

If we go on fantasizing, xenos might have laid the eggs there a long time ago and then disappeared for some reason, and later on, the engineers found the cave and made adjustments to it, perhaps in order to make it easier to harvest the eggs? The layer of mist might be a safety precaution so that the facehuggers don’t attack when the engineers came to pick some eggs?

chli

Feb-09-2018 1:01 AM

Also, it’s a nice idea of yours, BigDave that the egg chamber is a huge, portable silo in the shape of a flower, but I think it doesn’t look that symmetric, it seems more like a naturally, undulating, formed cave - formed through millennia of winds and water (or if there is no oxygen or water some similar process)? However, the cave (as I like to see it) has been modified with bio-mechanical traits such as protruding gangways (piers) leading out into the "sea" of eggs (which Kane falls off), vaginal-shaped holes and walls prepared in a similar way to when you prepare a wall in your house with wallpaper etc? These biomechanical additions to the cave might also contribute to creating the atmosphere (warmth and perhaps humidity), the layer of mist etc?

Critters5

Feb-09-2018 6:55 AM

Imagine in 10 years we get a Starbeast style prequel to Prometheus? 

BigDave

Feb-09-2018 4:12 PM

It really is open for debate as far as the structure of the Chamber as far as what shape we see, it appears it curves around the corner, but we only see the one side, we dont know if it curves off in the other direction like symmetrical.  So i think the shape is something open for debate if we go the ROUTE the Egg Chamber is not a CARGO HOLD on the Derelict.

I think it looks a Facility, certainly is underground and so it would have to be inside some excavated cave system.   We cant rule out Natural Cave System either, but i still look at this place having far too many signs of Technology/Synthetic Construction, to be a Natural Place...   unless its created from the Xenomorphs just as the HIVE in Aliens is...

We cant rule this out because AESTHETICALLY the Egg Chamber, the Derelict and Xenomorph Hive share a lot of Characteristics.  There had to be a Genetic/Materialistic link.

The only way (this is just my opinion mind) that this was a Egg Chamber that had Eggs that had been there prior to any kind of Technology would be if the Engineers encountered a Cave with Eggs, and then they decided to change the inside of these Caves to some Outpost/Facility to Safely Reproduce and Store the Eggs in a Environment the Engineers/Space Jockey (or who ever created this place) could have better control over the Eggs.

I think the Mist looks Artificial to me, like some purposely designed Protective Barrier.

"Imagine in 10 years we get a Starbeast style prequel to Prometheus? "

Who knows..... i think we can apply some elements of it, it would not fit directly with Star Beast, but it would carry the same Plot/Theme....  So it uncovers some Ancient Alien Race Related to the Xenomorph Ancestral Roots that is long gone, but all that remains in one of their Outposts/Temples are the Eggs.

The Engineers/Space Jockey discover these and this leads to them Experimenting with them etc.

The other side of the story would be something similar to what HR Gigers Concepts show, and Mural for Alien, which is the Engineers are either Self Sacrificing themselves for the Xenomorph... or maybe some other Race or creatures Related to the Xenomorphs, are using the Engineers to Self Sacrifice themselves.

We have to ask WHY?

Maybe the Engineers are created by these biengs or just enslaved.... maybe there is some kind of symbiotic relationship where the Engineers have to Sacrifice some of their Species, but there is some kind of benefit/reward to them for this.     The Engineers could then have created Mankind in order to use us to replace them as far as the Sacrifices, or after a Rebellion by the Engineers,  the beings who are above them and involved in the Agenda of Procreating the Xenomorph related Organisms, could then use a Engineer to Create Mankind to replace the Engineers for the Sacrificial Purpose.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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