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Alien: Covenant

Alien: Covenant - Prometheus sequel

Alien: Covenant

The Alien: Covenant, Alien: Awakening & Prometheus Movie Community

Critters5

Member

17

Posted Dec-13-2017 6:20 AM

The Engineers are not mentioned or featured in any of the Alien movies from Alien 1 on. Why not? Where did they go and what happened to them? Will RS answer why they are not featured in future films? 

41 Responses to Fate of the Engineers

ali81

Dec-13-2017 6:56 AM

focus was solely on the beast and maybe no one could come up with anything meaningful and/ or cost effective. that's why Ridley returned, to answer this question yet I doubt wel get many answers now.

Critters5

Dec-13-2017 7:05 AM

I know, but I am so curious as to what RS (if Disney keeps him on), will come up with to explain their absence in the future films...

sherris

Dec-14-2017 5:56 AM

To my knowledge, The Engineers did not exist in any form before Prometheus was made. They were not in any of the films as they did not exist in any way.

Then the PREQUEL decided who or what was in the Elephantine suits. Then we have a new being in the franchise. I think Alien, Aliens and even A3 can still get away without mentioning them but by the time you get to the year which A:Res is taken place surely there is some questions ? 

Either way i love the idea of the engineers and love the franchise. just wish it was taken better care of over the last 4 decades or so

Take This.... This is the blood of our lord

sherris

Dec-14-2017 6:09 AM

Perhaps killing off the Engineers keeps continuity but then that begs the question:  Why bring them into play. Maybe the pilots chair should of been addressed earlier like RS suggested.

Personally, i hope this next one goes ahead and we find they are still Engineers and other races in the franchise. opens up things nicely, just the way they were at the end of Prometheus

Take This.... This is the blood of our lord

Critters5

Dec-14-2017 6:49 AM

I agree Sherris. They should be used as a platform to totally expand the Alien universe for a much more large scale and diverse (Disney's favorite word), universe for future movies.  

Ingeniero

Dec-14-2017 7:59 AM

That was one of Ridley Scott's motivations in returning to the Alien franchise sherris. No one had expanded on who's space vehicle was on LV-426 and it bothered him.

So, Scott thought about it for a while before making Prometheus and that mystery (the Engineers) wasn't really explored Critters5 in the other films Ridley Scott was uninvolved with. Alan Dean Foster had nothing on the Engineers or the Space Jockey in the  Alien novelization nor anywhere else before the Alien: Covenant novelization. And nothing on the Engineers in the Alien: Covenant Origins novel.

sherris

Dec-14-2017 2:34 PM

I think the Engineers will end up with a cult following regardless of if they feature again.

The potential mythos created and the way it opened the universe.

I just found them so interesting i spent honestly maybe 500 hours researching the net over the last 5 years.

IMO Fox never knew what they had.

Take This.... This is the blood of our lord

daliens

Dec-15-2017 12:00 AM

All the engineers were supposed to be on planet 4, except for the SJ incident. About the SJ Ridley Scott said it is a suit, more exactly an engineer in a suit. Now, since fans cried when David wiped out the engineers' homeworld from all the 'meat' including all the engineers, Ridley Scott realized there are some engineers on some Juggernaut on their way home, so engineers will return to please the fans. Same story as that of the xenomorph returning in Alien Covenant after fans cursed the engineers and asked for xenomorph. 

Should Ridley Scott listen to fans again or follow his own agenda and make a fresh sci fi without xenomorph, without engineers,  without Ripley? The fanbase is so divided and there is no way to please everyone so trying to do that is just a recipe for disaster.

I thought the story belongs to the author,  but the fans are now simply behaving like Annie Wilkes vs Paul Sheldon (from Misery by Stephen King).

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

Critters5

Dec-15-2017 8:02 AM

daliens, I refuse to believe that all of the Engineers in the universe were on that planet and living in that little city. It makes no sense. It was either one of their worlds or more accurately cities or a creation/seeding of the engineers. 

ali81

Dec-15-2017 8:10 AM

it would be logical to assume the engineers colonised other worlds. give mankind FTL travel and that's probably what we will do. it gives the species more chance of long term survival as if ur species it stuck on one planet that comes under attack, theres a chance the species would be destroyed. unless of course theres something in their religion or civilisation that prevents them from doing so but I also hate the idea that they were only on planet 4. their something different in the franchise and would be a shame to have them wiped out. plus if their wiped out by the end of the prequel series, no one can use them in future films

Critters5

Dec-15-2017 8:15 AM

agreed

BigDave

Dec-16-2017 9:25 PM

@ali81

You raise a good point about giving into Pressure, but who knows if the Engineers will return purely based on Fan Reaction, i doubt this is the case because of that.. the reason i feel is that RS had always wanted to feature the Engineers..   But indeed backlash from Prometheus meant he had to by-pass them somewhat for AC.  I am not so sure regarding the reason they are coming back is due to back-lash to AC, it could be but i doubt it.  As surely RS would understand that DAVID caused a bigger back lash, yet he is pursuing more so with David and AI

However in the Marketing for AC and the Interviews RS had appeared to push a firm interest on the Xenomorph and how they had to get back to the movie being about THEM but more so WHY and WHO created them.  A few months latter indeed RS did mention the Engineers would return, i cant be sure if this was a reaction to AC, i dont think it was.  But certainly the inclusion of the Xenomorph and the brushing under the carpet of the Engineers and Shaw in AC was due to back-lash over Prometheus but more so in how Prometheus never gave us Xenomorphs or would not have drawn us closer to the Space Jockey Event, but a sequel looked to move further from this.....   As well as how Fans was excited for the return of Xenomorphs in Blomkamps Alien 5

Concerning the ENGINEERS and their where abouts...

Prometheus set up for a greatly expanded universe, Alien Covenant maybe attempted to reduce the size of this... so in part i can agree with the THIS is the Planet of the Engineers...  as far as thinking at the time of Alien Covenant... maybe... because RS had said this was the Planet, he also called those beings on Planet 4 the Original Engineers too.

A Problem is RS and CO seem to change their minds over and over and over, and go against stuff that has been pre-laid out prior.. Alien Covenant seemed to take on board and care about previously laid foundations as Star Wars EP8 did with the prior Movie.

Ridley Scott however said the Engineers return to that Planet from Time to Time... and they will discover what happened and wont be too pleased...

Do we ASSUME Planet 4 all of the Humanoid Engineers are kept just in ONE City this makes little sense... but we have no proof of others on that World, and if there was maybe we can assume the Black Goo Spread and killed them....

What we see however is Planet 4 and the site of Davids Arrival has a Hanger, and it also had a Juggernaught Aesthetic Docking Mother Ship and so we have to ask, does a Race live in such a mainly Ancient Way/Technology but they have a Docking/Border Control Ship?  And those Engineers are not afraid of the incoming Juggernaught?  Do they all just live in One Place in the Galaxy and only Permit ONE Hanger with only a Handful of Ships?

The Concept work and deleted Scene revealed the Hanger had 3 more Ships but as they was not in the Theatrical we cant 100% take it as Canon... but what we can take notice of is the similarity between the Juggernaught and the Docking Ship, and considering at some point the plan was the Hanger held more Engineer Ships.... on a World that apart from that Hanger was void of such Advanced Technology as on LV-223.... yet LV-223 had a abundance.

I think the difference between the LV-223 Engineers and Planet 4 and WHY they was all gathered in ONE City that had only ONE Hanger is a Big Question that i think goes against this place being where all the Engineers are... It may be WHERE they Originated from... but its far from where they are..

UNLESS... Its another Races Technology they Stole and then used to Evolve themselves.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Dec-16-2017 9:41 PM

Now as far as the Engineers in General.....

The idea for the Prequels was not just about the Beast, it was about the Space Jockey too..

Lets look at the Basics of the DERELICT

The Derelict was a Alien Space Ship, that appeared to be very connected to its Pilot (not only literally) but also by the Derelict is a Space Jockey Race Ship, this Ship had a Alien Egg Cargo the Cargo Organism shared a Aesthetic with the Derelict Ship.  Down the line RS had explained the Cargo to be Bio-Weapons and the Ship a Bomber or Bio-Weapon Cargo Plane.

As time went on RS further and further affirmed and pushed for the Xenomorph to be a Bio-Weapon belonging to the Space Jockey Race.

The Purpose for the Prequels was to reveal not only the Origin of the Cargo, but also its Purpose, WHY would it be created rather than by WHO so we have this Alien Bio-Weapon, that appears to be related Aesthetically to the Ship and the Pilot has to be connected, because he cant purely be just a random Race/Creature that Hijacks that Ship and Cargo....   And so in exploring the WHO as far as connected to the Xenomorphs, it was obvious it was related to the Space Jockey and the Ship a means to carry these Biological Warfare.

So we did not need to know in detail who the Space Jockey was, but the Space Jockey is something never to ever be covered in the Franchise, the Xenomorph had been done a lot, all we have no knowledge of is its Origin... so the Space Jockey Race No Doubt was something to be explored... but the big Questions for the Cargo was HOW and WHY This was to be shown as our Engineers and they opened up the Plot they had created us (or played a role) and then they wanted to Destroy us and hence the Bio-Weapon.

Fans was displeased a bit with this, they wanted something more Alien and Xenomorphs and not Bald Wanna Be Gods....   So Ridley Scott again affirmed the HOW and WHY with regards to the Xenomorph but now U-Turned it to David and Vaguely Why.

The Engineers and their purpose, history and who are above them was going to be something very much covered in Prometheus 2 before they gave in to Fans and gave us Alien Covenant...

The Set-up from Prometheus is these beings (Engineers) have seeded many worlds, and RS hinted that we may not be the only intelligent  life they have created, another MASSIVE CLUE is the Engineers Orrey Room AKA Space Jockey SAT NAV... 

This showed a giant Bubble of our Galaxy but outside was many many Galaxies so the Engineers or the Race who this Technology belonged have the ability to Travel to other Galaxies, so Earth to Planet 4 is put a drop in the Ocean to the Universe these beings can travel too.

What are the odds then that only Earth, LV-426 and Planet 4 are the only worlds associated with them.

Ridley Scott said and he still stands by the ENGINEERS are Space Gardeners, and so their influence and places they have been must be far more vast than those 3 Worlds.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Dec-16-2017 9:51 PM

Now to Directly Address the OP

The reason why we never heard about them in the Alien Franchise was because they was not conceived in any other movie, no body thought to address the Space Jockey/Derelict and what Race is this, Ridley Scott was bound to have some ideas and he certainly wanted to explore this many years ago.  Even as far as the 80's he even had a idea pitched for a movie prior to FOX choosing to go the AVP route.

But the fact we touch upon the Engineers as the Space Jockey, and their Race has interacted with us in the past prior to ALIEN and in Locations quite close compared to the Speeds of Travel in ALIENS, is something that needs to be a addressed and i think its something that would have been addressed.

*Why the Engineers never came back after the Failed Outbreak 2000 years ago

*Why the Engineers never came back (within Alien Franchise) after the events that will follow Alien Covenant

*Why the Company pursue the Xenomorph only via LV-426 (then Ripley)

*Whats left of Engineer Technology on LV-223, Planet 4 and elsewhere

*Whats left of Engineer Bio-Weapons and Related Organisms.

These are all Questions Raised by the Prequels that need to be addressed, so as to avoid conflicts with the Franchise, and i think in order to answer these WE WILL see the Engineers again..

IF... Disney ever plan to continue the Prequels or consider Engineers Canon.

EDIT...

I will Critters5 just add that maybe the Engineers had been conceived for us as far back as 1978 and by none less than HR Giger, despite many thinking Gigers idea was a Elephantine Race... it was not it was a Humanoid in a Space Suit... not just any Humanoid but Bald Humanoids in Space Suits not dissimilar to those in Prometheus who Self Sacrificed themselves to Procreate the Xenomorph.

Whats also of interest is Gigers works pointed to the Xenomorph and Derelict being Aesthetically and Genetically connected and the Ships Cargo Hold/Egg Silo Produced the Eggs from tiny Worm-like Organisms.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Critters5

Dec-18-2017 7:31 AM

Bigdave, my question is really what do you think will be the event which causes the Engineers to be absent for all the Alien films that come after Alien? How do you think RS will write in the reason for their blatant absence from the rest of the series? What was the reason? Did they get destroyed by David? 

Thoughts_Dreams

Dec-18-2017 10:33 AM

Since they were not thought of like that when they began Alien I guess that there is a lot that you can do with them. Hopefully we will see more Engineers in the next movie. One guess is that they went into hiding since David bombed one of their planets (AC) and what will happen in the next movie is the last that we will see of them but that is not to say that there is no one of them left in the original movies.

More Engineers (society, culture, and so on) less AI please. Hopefully they will leave it a bit vague about the Space Jockey but give us some more clues. I would like to know a bit more about the connection of the SJ and the Engineers.

As far as bald wannabe Gods you are correct Big Dave but I hope that they can flesh them out and make them more interesting. There has got to be a way that this can be done. The Engineers as seeders of life in the galaxy is an interesting idea but I am not sure how they will make that to work.

Hopefully they have thought more about this when we will get the next movie.

Michelle Johnston

Dec-18-2017 10:58 AM

There are two ways in which the Engineers absence can be explained :-

1) You give their role as Space Seeders a sense of happening over the millennia where the time frame is immeasurably great so their absence for ten of thousands of years is part of their story. Indeed the extra ordinary out pouring that occurred when Davids juggernaut arrives suggests great expanses of time, the return of a vessel was huge event the entire population emptying out to greet them.   

2) The events of Awakening lead to a decision where the Engineers determine to withdraw their paternal interest in mankind's development knowing their curiosity will always get the better of them. They Engineer the destruction of David and the Juggernaut on LV426 intending it to be the end of the Pathogens story and the re-routing of the Nostromo represents mankind's failure to curb that curiosity. The subsequent story is essentially a morality tale, what is revealed is that the science division is run by artificial intelligence and is the child of David's unbridled amoral curiosity. Provided you explain all the players place within a coherent historical context it can make sense of the subsequent story. The reasoning behind the actions becomes clear and gives the subsequent story weight. 

Critters5

Dec-18-2017 11:39 AM

Brilliant Michelle. 

BigDave

Dec-18-2017 3:31 PM

@Critters5

This is a very good question, i thought i covered it but i will mention again, that this creates a kind of Continuity Error... However like we have rumors on Earth regarding Conspiracy Theories they can put it down to the company cover up any such information and contact.

But we still have to address the side of the Engineers, and so the Question you ask is ONE of the Biggest ones in the Franchise, especially if the Engineers Created us or was involved in our Evolution and visited us, and then to WANT to the Destroy us.

The Questions are...

*Do all the Engineers know of our Creation and the visits to us in the Past?

*Do all of the Engineers know of the Planned Destruction of our Species?

*Do all of the Engineers know about LV-223? And what had been going on?

*If their is a Race/Hierarchy above the Engineers are they aware of the above Questions?

IF the Answers to any/all of these are YES then we have to ASK they have not been back?

IF most of these Answers are NO, then surely some of the above will KNOW after Alien Covenant and then how would they FEEL?

I guess Regardless of any of these outcomes it would surely lead to the Engineers or those Above them to be Fully Aware of the Dangers Mankind and our Creations Pose and that we can NOW Travel the Stars and at very least via our Creations use their Technology.  And so its Safe to assume they would want to Eradicate Mankind from Earth, then maybe they would next have to consider destroying LV-223 and maybe other Humanoid Races they have encountered or at very least take Regular inspections on the Progress of these worlds so that what happened with Mankind and our Synthetic Creations NEVER Happens Again.

But we are still around at the time of Aliens and more so Alien Resurrection, so we have to wonder and maybe need a explanation of what has happened to the Engineers after the Time-Line of ALIEN but especially ALIENS.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Dec-18-2017 4:24 PM

Indeed as Michelle has said but we have many options for how we can explore the Engineers, a lot depends on HOW Ridley Scott Views them and he keeps kind of changing his mind on this one, a lot depends on how Literally we take his comments and that some of them can be Vague

Like Ridley Scott called the Engineers Fallen Angels a number of times, this does not have to mean they are a more Evil Faction of a Higher Race, but certainly appears to hint they are a Race maybe who once served under a Higher Race/Being or a Hierarchy but they Rebelled and began to be more Sinister.

However again the Fallen Angel Analogy could be placed purely on the beings being Demons as in in Wicked and Cruel and Far from Benevolent.  It thus could apply to them all and not mean they are a Fallen/Evil Faction of a Race.

Another thing Ridley Scott had mentioned more than most about the Engineers are they are Gardeners of Space, Genetic Gardeners if you would, but we also cant rule out them having something to do with the Manipulation of Worlds to be able to sustain Life. 

I think at the time prior to Alien Covenant we had to pay a bit more attention to the above TWO points Ridley Scott had brought up over and over, i think the GARDENERS! One is Especially Interesting, well the one that Ridley Scott appears to not be changing his mind about much.

Both of Michelle's points are important to all of this.

1) Indeed the Process of Seeding such Worlds is something that takes a considerable time, Especially if we look at Science/Archeology more.   The Sacrificial Scene if its intended to show what these ENGINEERS do on Worlds, appeared to be something that must have happened maybe a Billion Years ago... But certainly at least Hundreds of Thousands....  while Jon Spaights Draft implied a Event that showed the missing LINK between Primates and Early Hominids, the Prometheus One Appeared to be a much more Ancient Event.   And so this is a long Investment if the AGENDA was to create and Nurture a Humanoid Species in their Likeness.

Its not a simple case of Planting a Apple Tree and Waiting for the Fruit to Grow and Ripen, a lot of in-between interactions and likely further involvement in experiments and Evolution by the Engineers would be required over a vast amount of time.

The BIG QUESTION is WHY? What Purpose to they Seed Worlds and is Humanoid Creations the END GOAL?

The Planet 4 Engineers indeed appeared to be Welcoming Back a Engineer Ship, without any concern for their SAFETY until they saw the Bombardment, we have to ask WHY they had no Fear, was it a Welcoming of the Troops back Home?  I am sure on Earth after a Cold War Type Conflict that Ends the Return of a Nuclear Submarine could be Welcomed as Hero's with NO Fear of the returning Crew using one of the Nukes on the Harbor/Port?  This would be a Fair Assessment, but its not one i agree on.  The Engineers did have the Scorpion Shaped Docking Ship that Wayne Haag had called a Border Control that no doubt went to Intercept the Incoming Juggernaught, maybe the Engineers knew of the incoming Ship and this News Spread, because the Ship just Appeared from Jump Space/Warp or what ever not far from the City but the large crowd of Engineers amassed around the Hanger from the city which is some distance and they would have either wondered by chance in the Courtyard or had been aware a few minutes or more prior of the Return of a Engineer Ship.

Ridley Scott claimed that Engineer Ships Return to this place from time to time, and its certainly more than 10 years since the LAST ONE had arrived (with David), so we dont know how long these ships come and go, but it could be Many Years.   And when we consider Ridley Scott Calls them GARDENERS i have always thought of LV-223 of more than what many interpret this Place as... I have maybe babbled on a bit to much on this Point... BUT.... What if those Engineers are Collected Periodically for Sacrifices which is seen as a Great Honor for their Species? I think this fits more with everything we had been shown prior to AC. including Ridley Scotts many comments.

2) A very Good Point... and we can ponder had similar happened in the Past? Did they Abandon us in the Past, did they make a Covenant between themselves to leave us to be and not interfere and just Write our Petr Dish off as a DUD.

If they are Genetic Gardeners, and we look at Earth as a Giant Plant Pot or some Green House they seeded, nurtured and evolved various Life on. But this one in particular (Earth) proved to be a Failure or seen as a Threat due to Mankind.  If the Engineers attempted to Create a Pestiside to Clean this Plant Pot/Green House to Start Again, but the place they chose to produce this Pestiside and attempts to do so proved to back fire and be so costly to the Engineers.

Maybe they chose to abandon this Plan and Leave that Plant Pot/Green House to Rot, knowing that Mankind would prove its own Destruction and IN HUBRIS and with a Great Ego, the Engineers Felt without interaction by them, Mankind would never Evolve no More and become Stuck on Earth, and so stuck in the Plant Pot/Green House to ROT, and cant affect other Plant Pots or Green Houses the Engineers worked on.

So they maybe made some Covenant to not interfere with us, maybe similar Races to us... and MOVE on.. much like the Main Covenant in the Bible was between GOD and Noah where he Promised he would NEVER Flood the Earth Again, he made a Covenant against doing such a Destructive Event again.

These comments are more aimed at Prior to Alien Covenant however, in regards to Michelle's TWO points.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Dec-18-2017 4:41 PM

I can see that Michelle's actually Points in regards to how to tackle the Engineers not appearing after Alien, as indeed as she said in (1) If the Engineers Set off from Planet 4, they missions to other Worlds and back could take Thousands of Years the Engineers Navigation Systems have GALAXIES not just ours so they Travel to Vast Distances.  And we dont know how long some of these Journeys Take.  If we Assume the Engineers use Planet 4 as their Central Place (i dont buy this) but if we assume so, and then assume say the Engineers had like 8 ships out and about, and the Returning One in the Next Movie, is maybe just ONE or TWO who is to say that the other 6-7 Ships in our Galaxy could be so far away that by the TIME they get a report of what the Returning Ship/Ships find, and then attempt to arrive back, it could be many THOUSANDS of years.

You have to Question LV-223 though... this place was on our Door Step as far as Engineer Travel, and it appeared to have 5 Temple Complexes, we have to assume Each had at least ONE Ship...  A Answer could be after they felt Mankind was a Threat they Set up LV-223 as a Outpost to Manufacture/Test Bio-Weapons to use upon Mankind... kind of a way of saying.. "Ok so this Planet has become Rogue, lets set up a Place near by to Manufacture their Destruction" The Problem i have with this is the Star Maps, this place was pointed out as far as 35'000 years ago, yet they interacted with us since then, did they decide we was a threat and then spent 30K + Years Perfecting a Weapon Against us? But why visit and interact with us?

Its why i think LV-223 was not initially a place for our Destruction... it was used as One at some Point for some Purpose which RS seemed to point to being a time when we had Offended them and Turned out to be something against their intentions or Plans... Most like because they FEARED what we could become, due to having Concerns how we turned out... These are similar to the Concerns Humans had for David Models, but instead of getting rid of AI/Synthetics they attempted to incorporate Safeguards in New Models.  I think Ridley Scotts whole JESUS point was not to be Literal, but it was the Engineers attempts to do to us, what the NEW improved Less Emotion Programing that the Walter Models had.. but with Mankind it was to send EMISSARIES down to attempt to get us to Change our Ways.

To briefly again refer to Michelle's 2ND option its certainly something they have to consider, its either what she had put, or that Davids Creations got the Better of those Engineers, and maybe wiped them out as far as those within so many THOUSANDS of Light Years, or they decide to Move away from  our Part of the Galaxy and concentrate on other Areas..

But i think they would still see the Threat Some Day, and i think they would do what they can in their Power to Prevent Mankind from Exploring more of the Galaxy and also Preventing Davids Creations getting into the Wrong Hands, and Destroying LV-223 so this can not happen again... 

But we cant rule out some Engineers simply deciding to leave this part of the Galaxy, and be Arrogant and  again Hubrsitic by thinking if they leave this part of the Galaxy and Concentrate on some place very far away, that it would be OUT OF REACH of Mankind and David.... maybe they even go "oh but before we leave lets take some Samples of that Creation to Study"

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Dec-18-2017 4:49 PM

"Since they were not thought of like that when they began Alien"

Who knows what little thought was given to the Space Jockey at that time, Alien was based off Star-Beast draft were what become our Space Jockeys are just a Alien Race of Space Explorers who Stumble on the Starbeast/Xenomorph and attempt to collect Samples for Study... maybe this could be explored as the Final Hubris of the Engineer Race (when they attempt to collect Davids Creation for Study)

HR Giger however seemed to imply otherwise.... while Alien gave us the Space Jockey Pilot who must have ultimately fell Folly to his own Cargo... HR Gigers concept work showed a passing resemblance to the Engineers we see in Prometheus, and a Race who appear to Self Sacrifice themselves to Procreate the Xenomorph.

The Engineers are who they are, as far as what RS has explored with Prometheus and then Alien Covenant, i think they need to introduce a more Sinister and Alien Element into the Pecking Order. HR Gigers Concepts for Alien show a Alien Bald Humanoid Race Sacrifice themselves to Procreate the Xenomorph that is created by the Derelict Ships Cargo Hold.  I think if they look at HR Gigers unused Mural and its Purpose, and we then consider the Humanoids/Space Jockey are our Engineers and then we in context look at Gigers Mural and ask what is going on there... WHY and WHAT Reason... then throw something Sinister and more Alien i think this would be a more ideal way to go as far as exploring WHO Created the Engineers and for WHAT Purpose.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Dec-18-2017 9:32 PM

BigDave

My two points were broad strokes. But Pietro has said that they did not go far enough in exploring the Paradise Lost narrative of LV223. Put simply and I have said this many times we needed two answers at the end of Prometheus :-

1) Why did they create us only to destroy us.

2) What did LV223 represent and how did it relate to the opening scene.  

With Covenant we have a third question

3) How does the population of Paradise relate function to the seeding process.

None of these absolutely fascinating questions have been answered.  

There are three very interesting answers if you wish to pursue such a path. 

1) The Engineers believe life is based on a mechanical construct gifted to them but they only see a fragment of the truth which can remain for us to ponder. 

2) As a result of 1 they began sub creating having corrupted/stolen the fire and were punished, LV223 represents Paradise Lost out of which the pathogen comes and represents endless punishment.

3) Their rebellion is rooted in their rejection of their sacrificial role and desire to sub create. Indeed the Alien Life cycle could have been created as a mockery of the sacrificial ritual. 

4) Their reason for destroying us is a punishment for our rejection of a mechanical creation myth in favour of the divine mind over matter creation myth which the great prophets represent. This idea was at the root of some rejected dialogue from John Logan's script where David explains that his mechanical construction is part of the central narrative of creation rather than the mythos of a benignly created natural evolution which mankind follows which is a delusion. 

All of this has been swept under the carpet whether we will see glimpses of this kind of thinking in more movies is I think unlikely and the focus will run parallel to the pre occupations of Blade Runner 2049 except that if another movie is made Davids fate will be central and will represent a comment on sub created A. I.

 

ali81

Dec-18-2017 11:13 PM

personally, it looks like wer back to square 1 where the engineers are concerned. in Prometheus, it was heavily suggested they created human life on earth, regardless of what planet the opening scene is, RS is implying to the audience these beings are responsible for our civilisation. even implying through Shaw and Holloway they return and interact with early human civilisations. now it seems some doubt has been cast on whether they are indeed responsible for our creation. in truth, we know nothing of them and have been given absolutely no concrete insight into them. what screen time theyv been given has been short and they don't come off in a good light in any way. they look weak. but is this on purpose or is Ridley deliberately been saving them the latter instalments? or has he changed his mind on them altogether? everyone is equally entitled to their opinion and im liking some of the ideas ppl r mentioning regarding them such as BD's theory they have stolen their technology. theyv stolen from the gods and now r paying the price for it. im starting to think Ridley's idea for them is for them to be king's and as Vickers says, 'all kings have their day, they reign, and then they die'. has their time come and Ridley is showing a 'passing of the torch' from engineer to mankind? however he is using them I still believe they have been misused so far and I for one want to see more of them. I want to see their connection to the xeno and the goo, afterall, these were the very reasons Ridley returned. id like to think the reason they don't appear or get mentioned in the other alien movies is they leave into the depths of space, either to regroup or they have realised man is too dangerous a foe to go up against. only once all the prequels r done will we know if they have been used well or not but as it stands, I think theyv been wasted. id like to really see their full might either in a flashback or shown by returning engineers.

Critters5

Dec-19-2017 5:19 AM

Wow, awesome ideas guys!!!

Critters5

Dec-19-2017 5:21 AM

After all of the great scripts that have been passed up, I'm thinking RS is just flying by the seat of his pants with plans that change from movie to movie. He needs to go. 

BigDave

Dec-20-2017 12:36 AM

@Michelle

Totally agree with all of those points, i have studied those a lot and have some rough ideas/theories on what could be the answers, indeed i was going to address them when working on a Prometheus 2/3 story, i came to a sticky point with how to fit the Xenomorph into this, as i had 2-3 ideas but could not think of the Perfect one to use without conflicting other aspects of the Engineers Background, likewise the other sticking point was the ladder of Creation, it was easy to cover the Hierarchy above those Engineers but the sticking point was wondering who is above it all, how many layers of creation/creator are a both them and what would those at the Top Be, Humanoid, Alien looking a MACHINE? The 3rd sticking point was the reason for our creation which again i had 2-3 ideas and so i had 2-3 ideas for each of these THREE things which means 6-9 different things that i just could not figure a way to get them to work together as i liked all the options, but it was the case of saying ok.... so the reason for the Xenomorph i go for option 2/3 for why we was created i go for option 1/3 and for who/what is at the Top of the Chain of Creation i go for 3/3 but i could just never settle on matching these up... BECAUSE the Wealth of Options was so VAST that i could not conclude which path to take and you cant follow them all.

This is also what i THINK the writers for a Prometheus Sequel had Faced, the options are vast, its hard to narrow down what to cover and in which way, and so with ALIEN COVENANT the way the Engineers was handled was like pushing them to the side rather than attempt to cover what could be a POISONED CHALICE

Some of my ideas based on theories and trying to Tie in the Mythical, Philosophical and Religious connections i think are interesting, the first movie PROMETHEUS and RS comments sent me down a Path, of ideas/theories that i think AC in part could also allude too.  The SCOPE is EPIC and you can see what RS was trying to do, but Sadly FOX just felt that Narrowing the Story to the Xenomorph and taking a Direct route closer to Alien is what Fans wanted to see and what would make more $$$$ i think for FOX Alien Covenant has been a EPIC Disappointment, i think when they was looking at the Final Parts of Production, the editing/cutting they (FOX/RS) must have felt this movie could surpass Prometheus in Reception and Financial Return.

THERE IS.... a Story to be Told, certainly looking at the points in your last post Michelle there is enough Food for Thought to explore this, and this kind of Direction is something Interesting it could be something Very Different to most Movies and something DISNEY could produce that would not need excessive GORE and stuff and so a Movie about the Engineers would easy be done for a PG-13 we dont need Texas Chainsaw Massacre Blood and Guts... to tell the Engineers Tale.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Dec-20-2017 1:29 AM

@ali81

I will attempt to cover what the clues/plans for the Engineers are as far as the Evolution of there Story, these points are the intentions of Jon Spaights and Ridley Scott and how they have changed.

*The Inception was a Humanoid Race who traveled the Cosmos Seeding Worlds, visiting their Creations and Nurturing them, while no explanations for why was given.  We did get told these Ancient Beings had lost the Ability to Procreate and they had to find other more inventive means to Reproduce.  These Engineers used a Sacrificial Ritual to Seed/Splice their DNA to Evolve Organisms to take on their DNA.

*The set up was then to also tell of how Mankind had Proved a Disappointment to the Engineers, we ended up not being what they thought we would be, we had become rebellious, sinful and cruel and so the Engineers partook in the Experimentation on Organisms to Create the Perfect Bio-Weapon to Punish their Wayward Children.

*It was implied the Engineers have very long Life-Expectancy

*Prometheus did not change much of these concepts, only it showed a Sacrificial Scene taking place much early in History, and chose to not cover as much detail as far as various Xenomorph related Creatures.

*Ridley Scott spoke of the Engineers as Gardeners of Space.

*RS spoke of the Sacrificial Scene is not the only way they can create Life its just the way they Choose.

*RS Mentioned the Scene was like Ancient Sacrificial Rituals where a Sacrifice would be selected, made a Prince for a year then Sacrificed to appease the Gods, so they can have a better Harvest the Next year. (we have to be careful what we read into this, but at very least the Engineers view this as a Important Event and the Outcome of this is of great Benefit to their Species/Culture).

*RS said the Sacrificial Scene does not have to be on Earth it could be anywhere, this implies the Engineers perform this Ritual on many worlds.

*RS has said the Engineers periodically came back to Evolve us both Genetically and Technologically which no doubt means the Process to get to Mankind was one that needed Evolutionary Intervention by the Engineers and once Mankind was the result they also further tinker with our Genetics as well as pass on Knowledge.

*RS ponders are we the only Humans/Humanoids could there be many more.

*RS mentioned regarding the Elders that they was the Hierarchy/Order of the Society/Culture

*RS mentioned that he did not wish to meet GOD in the first movie, when talking about the removal of the Elders Scene. This could mean their is another Race above the Engineers, or that their Ancestors/Elders are the Gods.

Moving on...

*RS had on countless occasions referred to the Engineers as Fallen Angels, this depends how we view them in this context, this is ambiguous but likely can mean only TWO things or maybe both, this is the Engineers (but which ones) have/are performing Actions that Go Against the Agenda/Plans of there Species/Culture or their Creators,  Much like Lucifer and the Fallen Angels. It could also just be to reflect the Engineers are just a Sinister Race who perform Sinister/Wicked Plans.

*RS implied the Engineers created the Bio-Weapons on LV-223 to Punish/Eradicate any potentially problematic Creations and we had seriously upset them hence our planned destruction.

*RS did mention the Jesus element but the context of this is the Engineers would send down Emissaries to try and warn/change our ways that are offending the Engineers, but we ignored these and killed the Emissaries, thus they had no choice but to Finally Put a Stop to our Race.

Moving on....

*RS had mentioned the Engineers do-not come from LV-223 but that those Engineers in Prometheus (but he could mean all Engineers) come from a Place we would regard as Paradise. I think its likely RS was more likely to be talking about the Biblical One, but then he could mean the Paradise as far as where the Honorable/Chosen go.

*RS mentions that Paradise could be a connotation of a very dark world, the context of this again is likely dark as in Sinister/Malevolent

*RS mentions that David and Shaw will discover beings but the beings they discover are not GODS not in the Traditional Sense, and they are far from Benevolent

*RS again refers to the Engineers as Fallen Angels, and brings up Paradise Lost book in context to the Engineers.

Moving on.... after the gap of no news, until AC announcement

*RS mentions previous stuff regarding Fallen Angels again, but then he also further explains that he feels the Fallen Angels in the Paradise Lost Book had the most fun.

*RS mentions you have ONE guy who is attractive who gets all the girls, goes to all the parties. While ANOTHER guy is not as attractive and sits at home all day being boring, the context of this is reference to the antics the Fallen Angels get up to in Paradise lost, vs God and his Angels staying in Heaven.

*RS then proposes that if the Engineers are the Forerunners of Mankind, then what makes Worlds being able to Support Life in the First Place, where is the BIG GUY, he further goes on to suggest are events like the Big Bang purely a accident, even saying Stephen Hawkings doubts it was just a random event. In context RS is hinting (IMO) that the Process of Manipulation of Worlds is not Natural but Controlled.

*RS mentions that there could be many different races/kinds just as we have with Mankind,  he implied this by saying just as their are many races of Man, why cant that be the same for them (Engineers)

Moving on.... to after AC/during those who visited the Sets

*RS mentions the Hall of Heads are the wise men, the apostles and superior beings (wise could mean Ancient/Elders, apostles implying they are the keepers of the Order/Culture and Ritual way of their kind, the Superior beings is interesting... Superior to who? Engineers? or Mankind?

*Another member of Production referred the Hall of Heads as the Hierarchy

*RS mentions again the Engineers are Gardeners of Space

*RS also calls those Planet 4 Engineers the ORIGINAL Engineers.

*RS also mentions they live for about 150 years.

*RS brings up the maybe many races of Engineers/Mankind again.

*RS mentions the Engineers are NOT a Race but are a Civilization.

*RS brings up that Engineers return to Planet 4 Periodically.

These are all the Official Clues/Comments Ridley Scott has mentioned over the years, we cant say how much he has changed on who the Engineers are over the years, it appears a bit has changed and so comments made etc prior to AC maybe cant be 100% taken as what is now the Deal with these guys, i think i have covered most and i may have missed a few related comments by RS and other Production.

We can look at these and use them maybe along with Visual Clues in the Franchise as well as Plot reveals in the Prequels to maybe try and figure out what the Deal with the Engineers are.  I would be very interested in hearing or seeing what the Original Prometheus 2 plans was, and what Paglen and Green Drafts had in them...  Then i could confirm if the Source i had was correct or just made up.  Its interesting however that what they hinted at in early 2015, RS had made comments 6-7 months after and since that seem to match what they had said.  In regards to a number of things, inc Many Previous Races of Mankind/Humanoids, the Manipulation of Worlds via Technology and more.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Michelle Johnston

Dec-20-2017 8:59 PM

@BigDave

The way to look at this is what kind of fully integrated mythos could have been created which has an internal logic. 

Xenomorph 

Easy its the consequence of rebellion and I prefer the idea that the pathogen was a booby trap for tampering with the fire. 

They created us so why did they want to destroy us

First of all when David was restored by Elizabeth he should have discovered that the Engineers were .. Engineers, mechanistic seeders who created life through out the galaxy. The audacity here is our creators are not gods but simply capable of creationism with the tools gifted to them. In that regard the Engineers are like Peter Weyland.

If LV223 was as Janek indicated (Paradise Lost through the booby trap of the pathogen) what kind of world would the Engineers world be.

Ridley said they were aggressive f...... so Paradise is an inversion of our Abrahamic religious beliefs its what we would consider as hell. The visions of Bladerunner 2049 with its dystopian harsh environs would be close to the vision. Elizabeth the believer and David with grudge would come to this world and from their different view points find it appalling. David now in thrall to his feelings would seek to destroy it and like "K" go on a revelatory journey where he discovers like the Replicants he is part of a shared consciousness..... a soul. The revelation at the end of the movie is that the creators are revealed to Elizabeth but in a heavily emblematic and elliptical way leading us to ponder.

LV223    

Represented the beginning of the rebellion and because mankind exercised free will and grew to believe in a spiritually evolved creation the Engineers in an unauthorised act began building Juggernauts with a view to unleashing their improvement on Earth which was booby trapped. Certainly elements like the visitations and interest in us needed tidying up and indeed they could have returned with early mankind and subjected them to the evolving pathogen creating their counterfeit the Deacon. However out of that emerges the booby trap which should have been the Xenomorph. The Xenomorph is a parasite so its an unauthorised intervention which corrupts and humiliates. This idea its some kind of Ancient God tells one more about what people think about its behaviour and how they view it rather than anything else. Indeed the Xenomorph in this vision is much like the David of Covenant mad as a box of frogs and entirely nihilistic but of course without a god complex.  

 

Critters5

Dec-21-2017 4:52 AM

Bigdave, how can the xenomorph or black goo be useful to eradicate a species? You would then need to eradicate the xenos just to utilize the planet again for a new experiment??  

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